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Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Cobleskill

1 Tau Commander per detachment, 1 Hive Tyrant per detachment etc.
Even with the Rule of 3, Tau Commanders have 3 Enforcers, 3 Coldstar, 3 Crisis, Farsight, Shadowsun, R'alai, etc. You can fill quite a few points even if you run 2k points.

At what point are people bypassing battleforged bonuses to run what they want without restrictions?

If your list construction nets you 0 or negative CPs, why NOT just run unbound?

'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
Racerguy180 wrote:
rules come and go, models are forever...like herpes.
 
   
Made in us
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






 carldooley wrote:
1 Tau Commander per detachment, 1 Hive Tyrant per detachment etc.
Even with the Rule of 3, Tau Commanders have 3 Enforcers, 3 Coldstar, 3 Crisis, Farsight, Shadowsun, R'alai, etc. You can fill quite a few points even if you run 2k points.

At what point are people bypassing battleforged bonuses to run what they want without restrictions?

If your list construction nets you 0 or negative CPs, why NOT just run unbound?


because you lose combat doctrines equivalents
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






If you're not battle-forged you don't get ANY CP (not even in the command phase).

You can't start with negative CPs. Can't spend what you don't have.

Grand Tournament pack armies are required to be Battle-forged.

I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
https://makethatgame.com

And I also make tabletop wargaming videos!
https://www.youtube.com/@tableitgaming 
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Cobleskill

 Rihgu wrote:
If you're not battle-forged you don't get ANY CP (not even in the command phase).


source?

'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
Racerguy180 wrote:
rules come and go, models are forever...like herpes.
 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






 carldooley wrote:
 Rihgu wrote:
If you're not battle-forged you don't get ANY CP (not even in the command phase).


source?


Core Rules, Command Phase
If your army is Battle-forged, then at the start of your Command phase, before doing anything else, you gain 1 Command point (CP). This is called the Battle-forged CP bonus.

I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
https://makethatgame.com

And I also make tabletop wargaming videos!
https://www.youtube.com/@tableitgaming 
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Cobleskill

I'm not certain that that means what you think it does. Helm of the Daemon's Eye (Thousand Sons), The Tyrant's Banner (Chaos Knights), and Wisdom of the Guides (Tau Empire) allow CP farming.

And none of them say anything about being battleforged.

'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
Racerguy180 wrote:
rules come and go, models are forever...like herpes.
 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






I'm really happy with the 1-of restrictions on certain models because for me it is part of the immersion. Hive Tyrants aren't deployed in multiples, or Chapter Masters, or Tau Commanders etc. These are the leaders of entire planetary forces--there's never more than one present in a battle save for the more extraordinary situations. And IMO the restriction is more about that than actual balance concerns.

Rule of 3, on the other hand, is definitely a balance restriction. Thing is, if I'm in a position of wanting to go above that then I am either running a very niche theme list that opponents will generally be fine with accommodating (on account of it clearly putting theme above effectiveness) or it is because the unit is OP enough that I really shouldn't be fielding more than 3 anyways.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






 carldooley wrote:
I'm not certain that that means what you think it does. Helm of the Daemon's Eye (Thousand Sons), The Tyrant's Banner (Chaos Knights), and Wisdom of the Guides (Tau Empire) allow CP farming.

And none of them say anything about being battleforged.


You're right, I was a little too general. I didn't know there was anything that could generate a CP wholesale (I knew about strats/warlord traits to refund CP)

So you'd have practically 0 CP, between 0 starting CP, no battle-forged CP bonus, and only being able to generate CP off of WLTs, Relics, and the like. Most of which key off of a random roll like 5+ and can only trigger once per turn. 1 CP per turn doesn't sound like a winning proposition.

I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
https://makethatgame.com

And I also make tabletop wargaming videos!
https://www.youtube.com/@tableitgaming 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Is there still a thing as Unbound? I thought that went away for match/narrative.

   
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought




San Jose, CA

The force org chart is a joke, I've been playing unbound since 8th, & somehow I still get CP & stuff. It's like you have all the power....

But I play in a very, very chill & permissive group
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Cobleskill

 Rihgu wrote:
 carldooley wrote:
I'm not certain that that means what you think it does. Helm of the Daemon's Eye (Thousand Sons), The Tyrant's Banner (Chaos Knights), and Wisdom of the Guides (Tau Empire) allow CP farming.

And none of them say anything about being battleforged.


You're right, I was a little too general. I didn't know there was anything that could generate a CP wholesale (I knew about strats/warlord traits to refund CP)

So you'd have practically 0 CP, between 0 starting CP, no battle-forged CP bonus, and only being able to generate CP off of WLTs, Relics, and the like. Most of which key off of a random roll like 5+ and can only trigger once per turn. 1 CP per turn doesn't sound like a winning proposition.


And I took the CP restriction to be that you can only carry 1 CP between turns. If you start the turn with zero, you farm 5 CPs and use 4, then you are good taking that last one to the next turn.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/07 21:48:05


'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
Racerguy180 wrote:
rules come and go, models are forever...like herpes.
 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






If you actually do try it I'm sure I'm not the only one would would be really interested to hear how it went.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in de
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




With the exception of a few factions I can think of, there aren't really many factions where it would be worth it to break battleforged. Like, I play Custodes and hopefully soon Blood Angels. That being said, you can't do anything better with 4 or 5 SC on Bikes, that you can't with just 1 or 2. Same with most other factions. All the best units are either named characters, or cost prohibitive. Think about BA Smash Captains. You need a ton to make a single unit really good. You can't spam that. Nids and Tau can spam big super HQ units, but most factions don't have those. I can't see Custodes running 4 or 5 Telemon, or DW spamming 4 units of Knights.

Can someone give me a non Horde faction unit that spamming would actually be worth it?
   
Made in ca
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran



Canada

 carldooley wrote:
 Rihgu wrote:
 carldooley wrote:
I'm not certain that that means what you think it does. Helm of the Daemon's Eye (Thousand Sons), The Tyrant's Banner (Chaos Knights), and Wisdom of the Guides (Tau Empire) allow CP farming.

And none of them say anything about being battleforged.


You're right, I was a little too general. I didn't know there was anything that could generate a CP wholesale (I knew about strats/warlord traits to refund CP)

So you'd have practically 0 CP, between 0 starting CP, no battle-forged CP bonus, and only being able to generate CP off of WLTs, Relics, and the like. Most of which key off of a random roll like 5+ and can only trigger once per turn. 1 CP per turn doesn't sound like a winning proposition.


And I took the CP restriction to be that you can only carry 1 CP between turns. If you start the turn with zero, you farm 5 CPs and use 4, then you are good taking that last one to the next turn.


The main rule book states on page 245 that a player “cannot gain or refund more than 1 CP per battle round.” It clarifies that this does not include the battle-forged CP bonus and CPs gained at the start of the Command phase via special mission rules. So you can have six different to ways to “gain/farm” CPs, but you can only get 1 that way per battle round.

Never mind that you would not be able to play GT Mission Pack games.

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in de
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




Not to mention, literally no one would play against you, due to the perception of imbalance. Which is hilarious given the state of 9th.
   
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Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
With the exception of a few factions I can think of, there aren't really many factions where it would be worth it to break battleforged. Like, I play Custodes and hopefully soon Blood Angels. That being said, you can't do anything better with 4 or 5 SC on Bikes, that you can't with just 1 or 2. Same with most other factions. All the best units are either named characters, or cost prohibitive. Think about BA Smash Captains. You need a ton to make a single unit really good. You can't spam that. Nids and Tau can spam big super HQ units, but most factions don't have those. I can't see Custodes running 4 or 5 Telemon, or DW spamming 4 units of Knights.

Can someone give me a non Horde faction unit that spamming would actually be worth it?


I'll take more Grot Tanks please. I'd also like more Necron Destroyers (well, any except the Ophydians that is).
   
Made in us
Pious Palatine




 carldooley wrote:
 Rihgu wrote:
 carldooley wrote:
I'm not certain that that means what you think it does. Helm of the Daemon's Eye (Thousand Sons), The Tyrant's Banner (Chaos Knights), and Wisdom of the Guides (Tau Empire) allow CP farming.

And none of them say anything about being battleforged.


You're right, I was a little too general. I didn't know there was anything that could generate a CP wholesale (I knew about strats/warlord traits to refund CP)

So you'd have practically 0 CP, between 0 starting CP, no battle-forged CP bonus, and only being able to generate CP off of WLTs, Relics, and the like. Most of which key off of a random roll like 5+ and can only trigger once per turn. 1 CP per turn doesn't sound like a winning proposition.


And I took the CP restriction to be that you can only carry 1 CP between turns. If you start the turn with zero, you farm 5 CPs and use 4, then you are good taking that last one to the next turn.


You can only farm 1 CP per battleround in matched play. So, if you were extremely lucky you'd end the game have had 5 total CP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Not to mention, literally no one would play against you, due to the perception of imbalance. Which is hilarious given the state of 9th.


That actually goes both ways. I'd be reluctant to play against an unbound army with even a meme matched play list (Something like taking nothing but penitent engines and mortifiers in Sisters of Battle, which is very bad but VERY funny.) for BOTH types of balance concerns.

I'd naturally assume that you're building unbound to leverage some crazy OP unit combo you theorycrafted out that lets you barf out 100 mortal wounds per turn with Sanctioned Psykers or w/e.

Failing that, I'd assume that you built your army that way so you'd get to put your most favoritest models on the table at the same time and as a result created a completely incoherent force. In those cases, even gimmick matched play lists have a hard time not tabling you super quickly, at which point a lot of this type of player gets really mad and starts blaming 'meta sheep' and 'net listers' despite the fact that I brought 660pts of penitent engines.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/09 17:04:47



 
   
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Cobleskill

ERJAK wrote:
I'd assume that you built your army that way so you'd get to put your most favoritest models on the table at the same time


I could have sworn that that was the whole point of Unbound.
From GW's mouth no less.

Anyway, I didn't know that matched play disallowed it, and I posted my initial post after I heard that CPs were going to be nerfed later this year.

'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
Racerguy180 wrote:
rules come and go, models are forever...like herpes.
 
   
 
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