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How do!

So, this is something I’ve not read enough of the Heresy to really know. I did keep up with the novels until BL started messing around with the format size, and got obsessed with milking us with Chapbooks (more money for less. Lovely, I guess?)

And the question is in the title. I ask because a common perception of those pledged to Chaos is that their new found freedom is a bit of an illusion, as the God(s) just manipulate you in a different way. Arguably a worse way, in that they slowly corrupt you to the point where you only ever fulfil their insane will, but thinking it’s your own will.

At the end? The very end. That final conflict between Father and Son? I suspect, but cannot really cite, that perhaps Horus truly became a pawn. A proxy. A puppet. A by no means necessarily willing vessel for the Gods to vent their frustrations upon The Emperor.

But even if that by no means safe assumption was correct? What’s your take on this? Was he just a puppet played from that fateful night on Davin? Or did the Gods simply give voice and purpose to his own pre-existing and genuine frustrations? Was he egged on? Was he freed? Was he played like a fiddle his entire life, just by different Masters?

Discuss! And please do cite!

Considering his decisions and rationalizations beyond 'daddy lied' were relegated to off-screen, yes.
He was totally a puppet.

At the very best case, he was willingly a puppet, because at least he could smash out his rage.

I do think its one of the major failings of the HH novels. They never managed to reconcile the simple Realm of Chaos script (pre primarchs, first founding or any of that) into an actual motivation for Horus. He just had to fall, so he did.

Voss wrote:
Considering his decisions and rationalizations beyond 'daddy lied' were relegated to off-screen, yes.
He was totally a puppet.

At the very best case, he was willingly a puppet, because at least he could smash out his rage.

I do think its one of the major failings of the HH novels. They never managed to reconcile the simple Realm of Chaos script (pre primarchs, first founding or any of that) into an actual motivation for Horus. He just had to fall, so he did.

I think the major issue was that they never expected for HH series to explode as it did, so they kinda spedrun his fall in the first few books but then proceeded to drag and flesh out everybody EXCEPT the titular antagonist of the series once they realized the cash cow HH that was becoming. There's glimpses of his discomfort with the formation of the Council of Terra and his insecurity over the Emperor abandoning the Crusade, but there wasn't enough context given before Horus' ascension to Warmaster or any interactions between potential competitors for the Emperor's attention like the Lion or Magnus to really give Horus a characterization of why it was a mixture of gradual disillusionment and chaos juju that made him turn.

Instead we got Horus turning with magic space knife and we've gone full speed ahead from that point on.

Otherwise, I agree that Horus was a full on puppet since Davin since it was literally the choice between being corrupted/enslaved to save his life or die. Everything else was just fancy dressing and decoration as to the motivations behind his betrayal.

The funny thing about that is I'm not sure the 'or die' part even occurred to him. It certainly doesn't seem important in the moment.


But really, who has time for 'cake or death' when a known and acknowledged liar is offering a self-fulfilling prophecy?

IIRC the events go in order of:
1 - Being made Warmaster.
2 - The Emperor "abandoning" His sons.
3 - The Council of Terra and the requirement for Astartes and Primarchs to be subordinate to mortals rather than just the Emperor.
4 - The war against the Interex, a conflict Horus really tried to avoid (thank you Erebus).
5 - The (seemingly personal from Erebus's word) betrayal of Eugene Temba.
6 - Magnus and Erebus both "manipulating" Horus. The quotations are important because while Magnus was actually trying to get Horus to do the right thing, Horus didn't like being told what to do so still saw it as meddling.

It's important to remember that Erebus wasn't a "proven liar" by this point, he was seen as a loyal servant of the Emperor even if he was a bit of a rat. That Erebus was also a Lodge member helped solidify his standing with the Sons of Horus.
Even after Horus chose to betray the Emperor, he never trusted Erebus and constantly had to remind the Chaplain that he was in charge, not Erebus. I'm actually pretty sure Horus got so sick of Erebus that he had him flayed and exiled from his side.

Having just read the first three books of the HH series. I think it is entirely his own doing and perhaps unlike some of the other traitor primarchs who were either pawns or symptoms of their foundings. He is one of the few that chose Chaos rather than "falling to it".

The part that is most important is I think his deathbed confession to the archivist who is supposed to be narrating his history. He admits his own failings and lust for power and control. He admits to wanting the Throne for himself. His corruption was already there. He mentions all the other Primarchs having aspects of the Emperor and says that he believes he has the Emperor's power and ambition to further the Crusade.

And remember, it isn't the blade that turns Horus to Chaos. The blade simply has the power to bring him close to death, that is the trap that Erebus springs. What twists Horus over the edge is the ritual on Davin where Erebus "dream-walks" with Horus and tries to turn him. Horus does in fact see through it and yet he turns away Magnus who tries to stop what Erebus is doing.



After the ritual and he is brought back to life, he accepts Erebus and uses the lodges as means of spreading corruption. He could have resisted but he actively chose not to. Horus (perhaps in this regard he is unwitting) reckons he has control over Chaos. He seeks to use them for his own gain and reckons himself a stronger power than they are.

When Loken takes his role in the Mournival, it is expressly said that he takes on the role of the Auriga. (The slave who held the laurel crown over a Roman triumphator and whose role was to whisper in the ear of the great general memento mori "remember you are mortal"). He is the one who Horus actively ignores and eventually tries to kill.

It's important to remember that Erebus wasn't a "proven liar" by this point,

_Acknowledged_ liar. As in, during the dream sequence in the lodge, Horus specifically tells Magnus that he knows Erebus is lying to him, and it doesn't matter.

We pretty much loose Horus' PoV from after he falls. Everyone has already mentioned what leads up to that, but after he's tricked into thinking that the Emporer abandoned him (something he was already predisposed to believe after his departure from the crusade and handing over power to the biurocrats) we don't really get his perspective anymore.

Because of that, it's really hard to say if his last "free" decision was to take the deal with Chaos and stay alive, or if he is a willing servant for the dark gods who is given free reign so long as he sufficiently feths gak up.

Voss wrote:
_Acknowledged_ liar. As in, during the dream sequence in the lodge, Horus specifically tells Magnus that he knows Erebus is lying to him, and it doesn't matter.

I mean Erebus had just been unmasked after pretending to be Sejanus and I always took it as that rather than Horus saying Erebus was lying to him about events.

 Gert wrote:

Voss wrote:
_Acknowledged_ liar. As in, during the dream sequence in the lodge, Horus specifically tells Magnus that he knows Erebus is lying to him, and it doesn't matter.

I mean Erebus had just been unmasked after pretending to be Sejanus and I always took it as that rather than Horus saying Erebus was lying to him about events.

I would say it goes way beyond that.

'I can trust neither of you,' he said. 'I am Horus and I make my own fate'.

Then a bit of yadda yadda

'Horus'. said Magnus. 'I am running out of time. Please be strong my brother. Think of what this mongrel dog is asking you to do. He would have you spit on your oaths of loyalty. He is forcing you to betray the Emperor and turn on your brother Astartes. You must trust the Emperor to do what is right'.

'Is it so terrible?' asked Erebus. 'It is but a small thing really. Deliver the Emperor to the gods of the warp, and unlimited power can be yours. I told you before that they have no interest in the realms of men, and that promise still holds true. The galaxy will be yours to rule over as the new Master of Mankind.'

'Enough!' roared Horus. The world was silence. 'I have made my choice'.

Pretty cut and dry.

I think that Horus's fall goes through distinct phases and his free will declines at each step along the way.

In False Gods, Horus turns to Chaos, partially to save his own life and partially out of pride. At this point, he is still mostly himself but the Chaos Gods are beginning to feed his vanity and ego.

In Vengeful Spirit, Horus ventures through the Warp Portal on Molech seeking he power to go face-to-face with the Emperor. He is successful and returns greatly empowered but also changed. He seems to have left the "Lupercal" aspect of his personality in the Realm of Chaos. At this point, Horus and the Big 4 seem to be sharing control.

In Slaves to Darkness, Maloghurst seeks a way to revive Horus after he is critically wounded by Leman Russ. He does this by venturing into the Realm of Chaos and killing the Lupercal part of Horus. Lupercal is still trying to hold on to his old sense of pride and honour and this is what is preventing the Gods from healing Horus. When Lupercal dies, Horus is effectively little more than a meat puppet for the Chaos Gods. A common theme in the Siege novels is Abaddon noting how little of Horus seems to be left. It is also clear at this point that the Chaos Gods are basically burning Horus up and are desperate to try to get to the Emperor before he is consumed.

At this point there seems to be nothing left of Horus, the Primarch, just a vessel for the power of the Gods. The final book may show that there is some lingering trace of Horus still in there, as in the original showdown.

Driven by all the force of his rage and pain and hatred the Emperor wills Horus's death. He senses the forces of Chaos retreat, disengaging themselves from their pawn. As they do so sanity returns to the Warmaster. The Emperor sees realisation of the atrocities he has committed flicker across Horus' face. Tears glisten there.

Horus is free but the Emperor knows he himself is dying and that the Powers of Chaos may once again possess the Warmaster and he will not be there to stop them. He cannot take that risk. Horus must die. Yet for a second, looking into his old friends face, he hesitates, unable to do the deed. Then he thinks of the slaughter that still goes on outside, may go on forever. Resolve hardens within him.

He forces all mercy and compassion from his mind, empties it of all knowledge of friendship and camaraderie and love. His eyes lock with Horus and see understanding there. Then with full cold knowledge of what he is doing the Emperor destroys the Warmaster.

Got to admit, this thread isn’t informative in the way I’d hoped, but it’s still pretty bloody informative all the same!

Voss wrote:
Considering his decisions and rationalizations beyond 'daddy lied' were relegated to off-screen, yes.
He was totally a puppet.

At the very best case, he was willingly a puppet, because at least he could smash out his rage.

I do think its one of the major failings of the HH novels. They never managed to reconcile the simple Realm of Chaos script (pre primarchs, first founding or any of that) into an actual motivation for Horus. He just had to fall, so he did.

Slightly off-topic, but I thought the main reason for Horus becoming disillussioned with the Emperor was that chaos showed him big E wasn't literally flawless. And in a vague, Homeric kind of way, that caused Horus's faith in his dad to crumble. Like, sure, it's one thing to commit countless atrocities if you genuinely believe that doing so is inkeeping with the flawless plans of a perfect being that ultimately has the greater good in mind. But if you destroyed all those cultures and families for the sake of a desperate, half-baked plan that might not even work and might be for ultimately flawed ends? That makes it harder to justify things. And it really makes it harder to justify giving this flawed entity complete control over your species and galaxy. What if dad's ultimate goals, no matter how well thought out, are ultimately imperfect? What was it all for?

Now going from that to doubling down on the atrocities and throwing out the positive achievements of the imperium is a bit of a stretch, but that's how I remember interpreting Horus's reasons for falling. If dad is ultimately just another flawed overlord, maybe it's a good idea to wreck his baby evil empire now while you still can?

Or am I wrong? I haven't listened to the story in years.

I've always thought it was a realization that the Emperor viewed the Primarchs and the Legions as a tool rather than his beloved children that caused Horus to choose Chaos over the Emperor. Take the litany of small insults and then add in the scene at the laboratory where Horus witnesses him and his brothers being stolen away by Chaos and the Emperor just shrugs and walks away. It as a betrayal that could not be rewarded.

Erebus' attempts to lure him to Chaos with promises of power were irrelevant at the moment. Magnus' calls to remember his oaths fell on deaf ears. Father never really cared about him. He never cared about any of them. They were tools in his grand game against Chaos to save his true children, humanity. that. He's going to show Father by joining the other team, proving himself superior, and putting Father's favored children under his boot.

And once he choose to fall, the Chaos Gods manipulated him mercilessly to sap his will and form him into their prefect tool to destroy the Emperor.

 alextroy wrote:
And once he choose to fall, the Chaos Gods manipulated him mercilessly to sap his will and form him into their prefect tool to destroy the Emperor.

Seems weird you'd call it his will being sapped when that perfectly describes his situation as a gung-ho servant of the Emperor.

I think the Chaos gods probably had everything mapped out from the point of his fall on Davin. That likely included the gradual erosion of Horus's free will. By the time he gets to Molech it seems pretty clear he's entirely being manipulated by the gods. He emerges from the portal with new power, convinced he received it the "right" way, through his strength of arms and martial honour, while the Emperor stole the power as he was unworthy. The whole passage reeks of self-delusion, and I think this is the point Horus becomes a true puppet of Chaos.

 alextroy wrote:
I've always thought it was a realization that the Emperor viewed the Primarchs and the Legions as a tool rather than his beloved children that caused Horus to choose Chaos over the Emperor.

I think one problem with the books is that whilst it is made clear Horus made a choice to side with chaos and many reasons are sited or alluded to they are never really presented as a coherent rationalisation as to why Horus made the choice that he did. However the impression I got is that a key factor in Horus' decision was that he did indeed see that the primarchs and astartes were just tools the emperor had created to perform a job, not beloved sons, and that they would one day be discarded once they were no longer of use. They were created to conquer a galaxy for humans to live in and rule and once the work of the great crusade was done there would be no place in it for the astartes. A galaxy conquering force of warriors with no more wars to fight would be a liability and they would likely go the way of the thunder warriors and be eliminated. Rather than accept that Horus chose to rebel in what was essentially a galaxy wide military coupe.

I haven't made it far enough through the series yet to see what becomes of Horus (only up to book 21) but it wouldn't surprise me to find he becomes a chaos meat puppet in true tragic style.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Slightly off-topic, but I thought the main reason for Horus becoming disillussioned with the Emperor was that chaos showed him big E wasn't literally flawless. And in a vague, Homeric kind of way, that caused Horus's faith in his dad to crumble. Like, sure, it's one thing to commit countless atrocities if you genuinely believe that doing so is inkeeping with the flawless plans of a perfect being that ultimately has the greater good in mind. But if you destroyed all those cultures and families for the sake of a desperate, half-baked plan that might not even work and might be for ultimately flawed ends? That makes it harder to justify things. And it really makes it harder to justify giving this flawed entity complete control over your species and galaxy. What if dad's ultimate goals, no matter how well thought out, are ultimately imperfect? What was it all for?

Now going from that to doubling down on the atrocities and throwing out the positive achievements of the imperium is a bit of a stretch, but that's how I remember interpreting Horus's reasons for falling. If dad is ultimately just another flawed overlord, maybe it's a good idea to wreck his baby evil empire now while you still can?

Wasn't it because they literally shown him 40K? All the suffering, backwardness, Emperor worship, religious degeneration without mentioning one tiny detail, namely the fact it was his fault and the Emperor worked to avoid this the whole time?

I mean, there are pretty dumb people who blame the Emperor for all of the above despite having perfect, inside view of the setting, it's not inconceivable someone who has only very vague and biased part of the story might start to despair and put the blame on wrong target...

 Irbis wrote:
I mean, there are pretty dumb people who blame the Emperor for all of the above despite having perfect, inside view of the setting, it's not inconceivable someone who has only very vague and biased part of the story might start to despair and put the blame on wrong target...

Ah yes, the genocidal, murderous, callous, slaving Emperor only *accidentally* created the current state of 40k, there's no way he can be held accountable for something so far from his actual aims...

 Irbis wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Slightly off-topic, but I thought the main reason for Horus becoming disillussioned with the Emperor was that chaos showed him big E wasn't literally flawless. And in a vague, Homeric kind of way, that caused Horus's faith in his dad to crumble. Like, sure, it's one thing to commit countless atrocities if you genuinely believe that doing so is inkeeping with the flawless plans of a perfect being that ultimately has the greater good in mind. But if you destroyed all those cultures and families for the sake of a desperate, half-baked plan that might not even work and might be for ultimately flawed ends? That makes it harder to justify things. And it really makes it harder to justify giving this flawed entity complete control over your species and galaxy. What if dad's ultimate goals, no matter how well thought out, are ultimately imperfect? What was it all for?

Now going from that to doubling down on the atrocities and throwing out the positive achievements of the imperium is a bit of a stretch, but that's how I remember interpreting Horus's reasons for falling. If dad is ultimately just another flawed overlord, maybe it's a good idea to wreck his baby evil empire now while you still can?

Wasn't it because they literally shown him 40K? All the suffering, backwardness, Emperor worship, religious degeneration without mentioning one tiny detail, namely the fact it was his fault and the Emperor worked to avoid this the whole time?

I mean, there are pretty dumb people who blame the Emperor for all of the above despite having perfect, inside view of the setting, it's not inconceivable someone who has only very vague and biased part of the story might start to despair and put the blame on wrong target...

And he saw a planet with a massive statues of the emperor and the loyalist primarchs, I.e. no statue of Horus. Which made him think that the emperor and maybe some of the other primarchs sought godhood but also that there was treachery in the works against him and the traitor primarchs

The whole Horus Heresy riffs off the Christian mythology of the War in Heaven and Paradise Lost. Just as Lucifer and then his follower angels became jealous of the creation of another lesser race with free will and loved by God, so Horus (and his marines) became jealous of the elevation of normal humans to positions of power within the new Imperium.

The whole conflict can be seen in as sense as the struggle for civilian control of the military and of the polity. Horus wanted the military as epitomized by him and his marines in control. We see the end product of that paradigm in the Eye of Terror with daemon worlds, such as the Plague Planet, where the Primarch and the marines are the ruling class over a mass of oppressed humans whose only hope to rise is to be strong enough to be selected for becoming a marine. It would have resulted in warlordism on a galactic scale for the Imperium, with the Primarchs all having their own mini-empires.

This same struggle would play out again in the Badab War with Huron essentially trying to create his own SM led mini-empire and resisting attempts by the civilian power structure to restrain him.

Horus had loads of freedom until they started writing those awful books and ruining the settings history. Still, it’s nearly over.

 Olthannon wrote:

I would say it goes way beyond that.

'I can trust neither of you,' he said. 'I am Horus and I make my own fate'.

Then a bit of yadda yadda

'Horus'. said Magnus. 'I am running out of time. Please be strong my brother. Think of what this mongrel dog is asking you to do. He would have you spit on your oaths of loyalty. He is forcing you to betray the Emperor and turn on your brother Astartes. You must trust the Emperor to do what is right'.

'Is it so terrible?' asked Erebus. 'It is but a small thing really. Deliver the Emperor to the gods of the warp, and unlimited power can be yours. I told you before that they have no interest in the realms of men, and that promise still holds true. The galaxy will be yours to rule over as the new Master of Mankind.'

'Enough!' roared Horus. The world was silence. 'I have made my choice'.

Pretty cut and dry.

Echoing the importance of this quote.

Horus' Freedom is an important question, but in no way is he a puppet of the Chaos Gods. Pride and ambition go a long way to explain his character, his desires are founded in an unrelenting drive to establish himself as greater than his Father.

Certainly one could argue he's on a power trip fueled by his encounters with Chaos. While he has all the Marks, he refused to devote himself to any of them exclusively. By rejecting subservience, he establishes himself as some superhuman figure capable of transcending the universe and all that lies beyond it.

Having an authentic claim to worth at this level would be necessary to supplant the Emperor of Mankind, given all his great feats and accomplishments. He's a different man for his encounters with Chaos, but he's not their subject. He's his own man and ready to assert as much at every opportunity.

Iracundus wrote:
The whole Horus Heresy riffs off the Christian mythology of the War in Heaven and Paradise Lost. Just as Lucifer and then his follower angels became jealous of the creation of another lesser race with free will and loved by God, so Horus (and his marines) became jealous of the elevation of normal humans to positions of power within the new Imperium.

The whole conflict can be seen in as sense as the struggle for civilian control of the military and of the polity. Horus wanted the military as epitomized by him and his marines in control. We see the end product of that paradigm in the Eye of Terror with daemon worlds, such as the Plague Planet, where the Primarch and the marines are the ruling class over a mass of oppressed humans whose only hope to rise is to be strong enough to be selected for becoming a marine. It would have resulted in warlordism on a galactic scale for the Imperium, with the Primarchs all having their own mini-empires.

Of course, the problem with that as a theory is that Horus was a normal human general when they came up with the idea for the Heresy, so they weren't using those themes at all.
One of the major weak points of the novel line is that it papered over the original themes with generic Christian Daddy Issues, no matter how stupid, nonsensical and ineffectual it made the major characters seem.

Voss wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
The whole Horus Heresy riffs off the Christian mythology of the War in Heaven and Paradise Lost. Just as Lucifer and then his follower angels became jealous of the creation of another lesser race with free will and loved by God, so Horus (and his marines) became jealous of the elevation of normal humans to positions of power within the new Imperium.

The whole conflict can be seen in as sense as the struggle for civilian control of the military and of the polity. Horus wanted the military as epitomized by him and his marines in control. We see the end product of that paradigm in the Eye of Terror with daemon worlds, such as the Plague Planet, where the Primarch and the marines are the ruling class over a mass of oppressed humans whose only hope to rise is to be strong enough to be selected for becoming a marine. It would have resulted in warlordism on a galactic scale for the Imperium, with the Primarchs all having their own mini-empires.

Of course, the problem with that as a theory is that Horus was a normal human general when they came up with the idea for the Heresy, so they weren't using those themes at all.
One of the major weak points of the novel line is that it papered over the original themes with generic Christian Daddy Issues, no matter how stupid, nonsensical and ineffectual it made the major characters seem.

Right, except him being a mortal human general does not affect that whole Apocalypse God versus Demons analogy which it 100% is about. And also, that thing about Horus being human disappeared so very long ago, before even the HH books. Even if it was the case, it certainly doesn't detract from the overarching theme of the Heresy. It's pretty in your face about it and was the case before the book series. I mean there is a reason why Abaddon the Despoiler is so named, he is after all the angel of the abyss. There's plenty of old lore that immediately fell by the wayside and quite rightly it did. Or I think more tactfully, it became part of something else. The original idea that Space Marines were criminals and nut jobs, that simply became the Thunder Warriors.

(None of this is a dig at you Voss me old lad by the way, I am just going beyond what you said about the Daddy issues thing to people in general )

To my mind, having the Primarchs deeply affected by their relationship with their "Father" and his actions is exactly the correct way of going about describing the fall. It is the defining motif of Fantasy and Scifi literature to humanise that which is not human. I find that a lot of people online have, as is their wont, incredibly oversimplified the HH books and relegated it to simply "Daddy issues". And then to call that shoddy, well it's difficult to be sure. Now, of course, that does exist with each and every one of the Primarchs but that is simply because it's an important part of their character. It is a vital component when creating empathy and reasoning behind the traitor primarchs in particular. It provides each of the Primarchs with a point of unity and how they interact with someone who is essentially God. It also leads down the winding path of "Why did they turn to Chaos?" beyond simply enjoying the taste of evil Warp goo. The Primarchs have to have a difficult relationship because why would they turn to Chaos? Why would the Heresy have happened? They were created as perfect beings by an imperfect creator. This is the basis of all religion.

It seems to me that the writers have almost certainly had a lot more fun and creativity with the traitors. How they turn to darkness is a great question. Therefore it gives you a huge creative landscape in which to run amok. I think the trouble with all of 40k lore is that because it is so long lasting and massive, it suffers from people who read the books and parse it out to others on wikipedia and youtube videos who don't have a clue about literature. Now I haven't read all the HH books and I'll be damned if I'm going to read and spend money on 60 books of middling quality so some of the above might not be correct. And I will be the first to admit that I have certainly looked on wikipedia/lexicanum or whatever to find things out about the new lore. Turns out when I actually read the bloody books myself, I find out so much more that is actually entertaining rather than the utter dross I unfortunately read online.

To my mind, having the Primarchs deeply affected by their relationship with their "Father" and his actions is exactly the correct way of going about describing the fall. It is the defining motif of Fantasy and Scifi literature to humanise that which is not human. I find that a lot of people online have, as is their wont, incredibly oversimplified the HH books and relegated it to simply "Daddy issues". And then to call that shoddy, well it's difficult to be sure. Now, of course, that does exist with each and every one of the Primarchs but that is simply because it's an important part of their character. It is a vital component when creating empathy and reasoning behind the traitor primarchs in particular. It provides each of the Primarchs with a point of unity and how they interact with someone who is essentially God. It also leads down the winding path of "Why did they turn to Chaos?" beyond simply enjoying the taste of evil Warp goo. The Primarchs have to have a difficult relationship because why would they turn to Chaos? Why would the Heresy have happened? They were created as perfect beings by an imperfect creator. This is the basis of all religion.

The problem is, they never rise above (at least to me) the answer that 'the script says so.'

Magnus is probably the closest, where in his hubris he makes a bad Faustian bargain to save his Legion and doesn't think there will be a price. I can get that one. The others... less and less so. For several it is just 'evil warp goo'

For me, personally, the primarchs trading for power when they already have so much power above and beyond everyone else is...petty. They're already demigods. A normal guy making a deal with the chaos gods makes sense, because so many humans (even during the grand golden age) are powerless. They have something meaningful to gain and something to lose (their humanity, which arguably as created beings with intended destinies, the primarchs don't even have).
Which translates directly to why most of the HH books are focused on marines or even historians and not the primarchs at all.

They're side characters with limited motivations, because their fate was determined in the earlier forms of the story, so that's what they're stuck with (which keeps the old versions, very relevant, IMO). What makes it worse, is the 'primarchs' didn't even exist in the earliest versions, so their fate is determined by being attached to the list of traitor legions, not anything they actually did.

Voss wrote:

The problem is, they never rise above (at least to me) the answer that 'the script says so.'

Magnus is probably the closest, where in his hubris he makes a bad Faustian bargain to save his Legion and doesn't think there will be a price. I can get that one. The others... less and less so. For several it is just 'evil warp goo'

For me, personally, the primarchs trading for power when they already have so much power above and beyond everyone else is...petty. They're already demigods. A normal guy making a deal with the chaos gods makes sense, because so many humans (even during the grand golden age) are powerless. They have something meaningful to gain and something to lose (their humanity, which arguably as created beings with intended destinies, the primarchs don't even have).
Which translates directly to why most of the HH books are focused on marines or even historians and not the primarchs at all.

They're side characters with limited motivations, because their fate was determined in the earlier forms of the story, so that's what they're stuck with (which keeps the old versions, very relevant, IMO). What makes it worse, is the 'primarchs' didn't even exist in the earliest versions, so their fate is determined by being attached to the list of traitor legions, not anything they actually did.

That, especially your first point, is extremely valid. I think that is perhaps the biggest problem that Black Library books face, but particularly the HH series. I think because they treat the 40k setting as "the script" they don't deviate from. I find it interesting, having just read the Dark Imperium trilogy, that they are finally going somewhere different and breaking away from the script. Now clearly, this isn't to everyone's taste and there is a whole hell of a lot of people who dislike that. But I feel that makes Black Library authors even more stuck if they don't. I really enjoyed reading the Dark Imperium novels even though I find Guy Hayley not the best author.

I think however, what your complaints stick to are in fact perhaps what they are going for with the books. I think the Primarchs are essentially side characters in their own fate. That is inescapable, so why attempt to change that? Instead they quite rightly kept them limited in order to focus on other characters which creates more breath in the books. Having recently read the first three (I did read some of the other early ones several years ago so I'm not just basing this on the first 3). I think they rely on the Primarchs as being almost childlike in order to have them fairly easy to remove. Horus in particular is next to impossible to not make bland and petty right? I mean he is the instigator of the Heresy so how do you turn him into a nuanced character? The simplest way to make it understandable to the average reader therefore, is to make them childlike and petty and so that makes them easy to twist and turn to evil. As you rightly point out, they are already demigods, why the hell would they try and get more power when they are already some of the most powerful beings in existence. It's difficult to make that believable without creating serious flaws in them. They have to be swayed because that is inescapable. I suppose going back to MDG's post, no they didn't have any freedom!

I don't disagree with anything you said because you are bang on, I guess I'm saying I understand the narrative choices they made. Some of it is certainly better than others.

Horus in particular is next to impossible to not make bland and petty right? I mean he is the instigator of the Heresy so how do you turn him into a nuanced character?

Well, that's the thing... he isn't. Without a lot of manipulation, Horus could've easily have been the lead loyalist. Getting dragged down by his bonds of loyalty to his corrupted brothers and reluctantly picking up the reigns of the rebellion would have been far more interesting than the bizarre 'I don't trust any of this, but I'm gonna do it anyway' decision point we actually got.

Hecaton wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
I mean, there are pretty dumb people who blame the Emperor for all of the above despite having perfect, inside view of the setting, it's not inconceivable someone who has only very vague and biased part of the story might start to despair and put the blame on wrong target...

Ah yes, the genocidal, murderous, callous, slaving Emperor only *accidentally* created the current state of 40k, there's no way he can be held accountable for something so far from his actual aims...

A fair chunk of the current state of 40k isn't due to the Emperor's choices, though - there's been 10k years since he's been active, he never wanted people to worship him, etc. I can't recall if he was aware of the founding of the Inquisition or not, off-hand, but I'm fairly sure he wasn't that hands-on with it if he was.

Without the Heresy, and all that happened during and after it - especially if he managed to get the Webway Project working without Magnus screwing it up - there's a decent chance that the 40k universe looks a lot better for Humanity as a whole. I imagine a reasonable chunk of individual humans still have a grotty existence, don't get me wrong, but without the Heresy (and all it leads to) things would be somewhat brighter.

...well, unless you're an alien, anyway.

Hmm - without the retcon during the HH novels about a certain Warp pulse, I wonder if the Tyranids/GSC would even be a significant factor...

 Dysartes wrote:

A fair chunk of the current state of 40k isn't due to the Emperor's choices, though - there's been 10k years since he's been active, he never wanted people to worship him, etc. I can't recall if he was aware of the founding of the Inquisition or not, off-hand, but I'm fairly sure he wasn't that hands-on with it if he was.

The Inquisition seems to have been Malcador's idea once the Heresy kicked off. The Emperor does not seem to have been involved but was doubtless aware. The Siege novels also include Malcador noticing the value of faith in fighting Daemons I haven't read the later Siege books yet so I don't know if they hint at the beginnings of the Eclesiarchy before the end of the Heresy but you can see seeds being sown.

 Dysartes wrote:
Without the Heresy, and all that happened during and after it - especially if he managed to get the Webway Project working without Magnus screwing it up - there's a decent chance that the 40k universe looks a lot better for Humanity as a whole. I imagine a reasonable chunk of individual humans still have a grotty existence, don't get me wrong, but without the Heresy (and all it leads to) things would be somewhat brighter.

...well, unless you're an alien, anyway.

Hmm - without the retcon during the HH novels about a certain Warp pulse, I wonder if the Tyranids/GSC would even be a significant factor...

Indeed. Magnus messing up the Webway project seems to have been the biggest spanner in the works of the Emperor's plans. In one of the short stories Malcador implies that they knew some of the Primarchs were too badly damaged to be kept alive in the long term and something like the Heresy (although probably on a smaller scale) would have been needed to cull the worst offenders like Angron and possibly Curze.

Given all of that, it makes it strange that the Emperor didn't keep Magnus closer, particularly after Nikea. Magnus was central to everything and his actions and fall arguably had bigger repercussions than Horus's.