Horus Heresy / 30K N&R

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**leopard**

Gert wrote:
GaroRobe wrote:
Isn’t that basically just genestealers cults tho? You either die or live long enough to become dinner

Massively oversimplified yes. And the reason Xenos shouldn't be in the Heresy isn't because they're underdogs, it's because they were contained and/or wiped out during the Crusade.
The only argument anyone can come up with is "Oh but they were in the galaxy" which is beyond weak.

they would be quite easy to include, they are there, they are not the main focus, their impact is felt as they divert resources from other actions. Maureens likely only go for Xenos if they are an immediate threat, or in the immediate way, there being little in the way of actively going for them as policy as people at a tad busy, take a ticket and wait your turn etc.

what could work though is a campaign thing with the Imperium at near the top of its game, facing Xenos pretty much as they are in 40k, where the balance is the Imperial lists vary to reflect the lower theatre of concern

that and limited special operations raids - e.g. forget taking on the orks as such, go blow some generator up to slow them down etc

they were there, the fact they are not the focus of the story should actually be integrated, they are on the edges, not full factions but smaller more specific forces designed for some scenarios

e.g. have them with a campaign focus, a sort of "wandering monster" almost, they are not an actual faction but occasionally Imperial players are assigned a raid etc to drag resources away. could also be a decent campaign balancing factor

**Glumy**

Gert wrote:

Massively oversimplified yes. And the reason Xenos shouldn't be in the Heresy isn't because they're underdogs, it's because they were contained and/or wiped out during the Crusade.
The only argument anyone can come up with is "Oh but they were in the galaxy" which is beyond weak.

The only argument that works - is it profitable for GW?

Everything else is just babbling and wishlisting.

However what is profitable for GW doesnt necessarily means its good for the players or the game itself. In my HH community i dont see people wishlisting for xenos. Its very rare if it even happens. They just dont do it. Because they accept the game as it is and they like it as it is. As do i.

The only people who want to put their own stuff into HH are 40k folks.

To the 40k folk: guys you have your own game with lots of releases. You have 10 editions to play with, lots of players. Just stick to your own game. HH isnt for you and it will not be if you want to radically change the theme of it. Peace!

**leopard**

I think it could well be profitable, though depends on GW being able to keep up as would require more books etc as they then have the same models on sale to more players

I'd quite like the option to run some Xenos, and I don't play 40k

**Gert**

Nvm. This is going in circles and it's a waste of time.

**Fayric**

I was under the impression that the reason "7th edition rules" works in HH, but were horrible in 40k, was more or less because "marines fighting marines" with the same gear and weapons, is way more easy to balance than having the whole 40k setting of colourful factions get along.

Including xenos would be a mistake, IMO. Better keep it simple.

**Justyn**

I was under the impression that the reason "7th edition rules" works in HH, but were horrible in 40k, was more or less because "marines fighting marines" with the same gear and weapons, is way more easy to balance than having the whole 40k setting of colourful factions get along.

Including xenos would be a mistake, IMO. Better keep it simple.

40k is balanced? Since when? As usual it isn't the base rules that cause imbalance. It is the army rules, be it 30k or 40k.

**leopard**

Gert wrote:
Nvm. This is going in circles and it's a waste of time.

as I noted earlier, happening or not happening we need the models for the stuff we have rules for now to be made available first

so its likely a few decades away anyway

**Not Online!!!**

leopard wrote:
Gert wrote:
Nvm. This is going in circles and it's a waste of time.

as I noted earlier, happening or not happening we need the models for the stuff we have rules for now to be made available first

so its likely a few decades away anyway

This. Melee infantry and upgrade kits for combiweaponry and terminator weaponry should be a high priority.

**Gert**

We're about to hit the summer release point and as soon as 10th is out of the way it'll be the Cerastus Lancer and the new Characters/upgrades.
The Characters bit is what interests me and our group was discussing who we think it could be last night with the biggest bets going on someone like Nassir Amit, Azkaellon or Forrix.

**Not Online!!!**

i am more curious about the "upgrades", and i hope that they are merely legion specific and not another despoiler kit..

**PetitionersCity**

On Xenos in 30k, and especially during the heresy, I was intrigued by the fluff text for nullificators

It suggests there were a good number of Xenos incursions during the heresy, not after it or before it. Very interesting!

**Tamereth**

Having xenos races in the heresy doesn't make sense from a fluff perspective. We know that the great crusade had crushed the biggest treats in the galaxy. The orks were broke at Ullanor. The eldar were basically hiding on their craftworlds. Tau / Necrons / Tyranids weren't around.
The war of the beasts novels are set in the 32nd millennium and the imperium is caught off guard as they haven't faced a major treat since the end of the heresy, having know a time of relative piece. It took the orks that long to recover enough to pose a real threat again.

So I hope they keep the heresy focused on whats important, i.e. the heresy itself.

**beast_gts**

PetitionersCity wrote:
It suggests there were a good number of Xenos incursions during the heresy, not after it or before it.

I read that as an increase in Chaos powered / corrupted Xenos encounters, rather than just general Xenos.

**Gnarlly**

Let's be honest, many of us want Xenos in 30k simply because the rules and "gameplay" for modern 40k are such a mess, including what we have seen so far for 10th.

**Alpharius**

Gnarlly wrote:
Let's be honest, many of us want Xenos in 30k simply because the rules and "gameplay" for modern 40k are such a mess, including what we have seen so far for 10th.

You're...not wrong!

I can see keeping HH as HH, but I would really welcome a "Great Crusade" supplement - could be done in one big book, maybe?

I guess if we're lucky we might see a line expanding into the Scourging Era...

**Shadow Walker**

Alpharius wrote:
I would really welcome a "Great Crusade" supplement - could be done in one big book, maybe?

That would be awesome to have. Eradication of various xenos, and corrupted (at least from the point of view of Imperials) human cultures was one of the most interesting things in HH books.

**leopard**

Shadow Walker wrote:
Alpharius wrote:
I would really welcome a "Great Crusade" supplement - could be done in one big book, maybe?

That would be awesome to have. Eradication of various xenos, and corrupted (at least from the point of view of Imperials) human cultures was one of the most interesting things in HH books.

could even see various "minor factions" that are not part of 40k, and due to the events of the time can't ever really be in 40k

**Shadow Walker**

leopard wrote:
Shadow Walker wrote:
Alpharius wrote:
I would really welcome a "Great Crusade" supplement - could be done in one big book, maybe?

That would be awesome to have. Eradication of various xenos, and corrupted (at least from the point of view of Imperials) human cultures was one of the most interesting things in HH books.

could even see various "minor factions" that are not part of 40k, and due to the events of the time can't ever really be in 40k

Yeah, many minor and major conflicts that could be relived in all various historical scenarios. Imagine Rangdan xenocides or Interex campaign.

**leopard**

exactly, could even, dare I say it, present fixed forces for scenarios as the Xenos side with a "historical" imperial force that can be changed about (thus limiting whatever needs to be presented to just "that which was there" so to speak)

ideally alongside some decent imperial campaign stuff - e.g. a campaign book for imperial stuff in HH, but with a side scenario of a raid or something

**Gert**

Even though I oppose the idea, here are Aeldari (Craftworlds and Harlequins) rules for use with HH created by the Liber Panoptica team.

Spoiler:

And here is the link to their Discord:

Spoiler:

**chaos0xomega**

If they did a Great Crusade supplement, I wouldn't want it to include any of the 40k xenos factions, give me the weird gak like the megarachnids and rangdan. I may make an exception for the orks since they were a prominent opponent, but the other 40k xenos factions generally played a smaller role

**PetitionersCity**

beast_gts wrote:
PetitionersCity wrote:
It suggests there were a good number of Xenos incursions during the heresy, not after it or before it.
I read that as an increase in Chaos powered / corrupted Xenos encounters, rather than just general Xenos.

I honestly think that's reading the text with a lens over it; it just says the "foulest Xenos breeds" and then the daemonic incursions - the former is not stated as connected to Chaos.

We know all Xenos weren't gone - enough that Horus could use the threat of more Xenos as a way to fool two of his brothers, and keep another occupied. The Xenos still had to be legitimate threats to the imperium for that to occur, even if both Guiliman and Sanguinius and their forces were subject to false flag operations.

It's also the issue that vast empires aren't flat or consistent - an empire is strongest always close to a major centre, but the territory in-between is much less "controlled" or orthodox, the sense of being part of that empire increasingly liminal, and then very much barely present if at all. And then space itself isn't flat, is something much harder to lay claim to or control every cubal piece of - nevermind the way the warp plays with space and travel. I think those wonderful 2d maps misrepresent the galaxy, give as a false sense of what domain actually is, pretending imperial power is hegemonic when it is not.

In his geographical treatise of 1537, the Portuguese cosmographer Dom João de Castro explained that it would be possible to correlate all newly discovered lands with astronomical markers to produce an accurate map of the world. The result would be, he wrote, a “true and perfect geography.” The movement toward this vision, from the cartographic revolution of thirteenth-century portolan charts to the use of surveying to map colonial territories in the nineteenth century, is a compelling narrative of the rationalization of space, and of the reinforcement of this trend by the pursuit of European imperial interests.

This narrative needs to be placed alongside the history of imperfect geographies and the production in empire of variegated spaces with an uncertain relation to imperial power. Territorial control was, in many places, an incidental aim of imperial expansion. While an iconic association with empire is the pink shading of British imperial possessions in nineteenth- and early twentieth-century maps, that image, and others like it, obscures the many variations of imperial territories. Empires did not cover space evenly but composed a fabric that was full of holes, stitched together out of pieces, a tangle of strings. Even in the most paradigmatic cases, an empire's spaces were politically fragmented; legally differentiated; and encased in irregular, porous, and sometimes undefined borders. Although empires did lay claim to vast stretches of territory, the nature of such claims was tempered by control that was exercised mainly over narrow bands, or corridors, and over enclaves and irregular zones around them.

See this work by Lauren Benton at https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/A_Search_for_Sovereignty.html?id=i15gAgAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&gboemv=1&ovdme=1&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

Nevermind what lies beyond nominal imperial space and might like to take advantage of the chaos? The slaugth, the rakgol, the whatevers and unknowns, pirates, raiders and even those many worlds not yet brought into compliance with god knows what Xenos oppressors or abomination variants of humanity....

**Gert**

Nvm.

**ingtaer**

Please start a new thread about this topic in the 30k forum, this is not news or rumours for the game.

**Shadow Walker**

List of HH toys that can be used in 40k https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/06/21/the-legends-of-the-horus-heresy-get-downloadable-rules-for-warhammer-40000/

**tauist**

Looks like my hopes for double dipping in HH2 & 40K 10th edition are still kept on life support

**Dawnbringer**

tauist wrote:
Looks like my hopes for double dipping in HH2 & 40K 10th edition are still kept on life support

To be fair, if the intent is to do that from the start it could be pretty decently planned out, you'd just have less options. Proxy Mk6 for Intercessors, or helblasters if given all plasma / missile marines with all missile launcher / infernus for all flamers. Mk4s as old school Tac squads. Rhino's as Rhino's and Preds as Preds, just watch the upgrades. Similarly for Landraider / terminators. Leviathan as redemption variants (again watch weapon options).

Not saying it would be optimized, but definitely options out there.

**Gert**

Mk6 Marines aren't enough of a size difference from the Mk4 Marines to call them Primaris.

Spoiler:

If one was to use the HH Legion units as 40k ones then either go all Firstborn or all Primaris but do not mix and match because it will not work.

**lord_blackfang**

They forgot to give points costs, despite referring to them in the pdfs.

**SgtEeveell**

Maybe a Field Manual addendum?
Probably that they used the same template for the Legends cards and the regular cards don't have a spot for points cost.