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 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Traitor Guard should have been in the book for the same reasons Corsairs are in the Eldar book.

The fact that they aren't, despite having a new kit, just like the Corsairs, is utterly perplexing.

if they gave Traitor Guard the same treatment as corsair, you all wouldve complained just as much. Traitor guard needs its own codex, not just two units that have zero synergy with the rest of the dex

No, this is where they were supposed to go. They didn't explicitly say the quiet part out loud during Warhammer Fest, but they were presented as the ranged unit mortals vs the close combat unit mortals (cultists, if that's confusing), who very obviously lacked any rifles and the presenters were vague on whether they had any (because they don't prep for obvious questions from the audience).

As for synergy, they have as much or as little synergy as the Codex writer provides. Strats and traits and such are garbage-level rules that they can just crank out dozens of in a couple hours.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

Karol wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:


I'd warrent that its because Reddit is mostly newer players, whereas Dakkanauts are jaded curmudgeons. Also Reddit's upvote system tends to foster positivity inclined hugboxes, rather than any actual discussion

A person which is about to buy some new models and build a new army is going to be more happy about an upcomming codex or set of rules, then someone who is now looking at 2000pts of models and ponders what is he going suppose to do with those extra same special weapons, lack of unit caster models, oblits at 90pts etc.

Has nothing to do with being jaded. The rule set is better then what csm had till now. The question is, and it maybe a rhetorical one, if the rule set is on pair or better then what top armies are rocking right now. Because just getting a spiky marine codex, which gets dunked on the same other marine books do, and being made to rebuy an army, is not something more then a few people may not be very happy about.

Except we have seen the pictures and it's not "better". It might be stronger in a tournament sense, but if you lose build options, iconic units and already know this is a stopgap because of EC and the Daemon Prince rules it's not "better". If they'd have released that 2 years ago maybe CSM players wouldn't be as salty, but after waiting two years for a 2nd wound and getting just copy pasted loyalist rules again (which people argued about in 8th already) and getting worse datasheets than before (honestly, GW knows people don't like that crap since the DG codex at the start of the edition, yet they managed to do even worse) it's legitimate to criticize that book.

Also there's nothing to suggest it's going to be tournament strong. Stronger in tournaments itself isn't a great hurdle to judge by.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
if they gave Traitor Guard the same treatment as corsair, you all wouldve complained just as much.

Utter hogwash. And what do you base this nonsensical notion on?

From the second the Traitor Guard were revealed in the Kill Team box the immediate assumption was that they were going to get the Corsair treatment. Again, the fact that they didn't is what's perplexing.

No one would have complained about Traitor Guard being included in the Codex.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
if they gave Traitor Guard the same treatment as corsair, you all wouldve complained just as much.

Utter hogwash. And what do you base this nonsensical notion on?

From the second the Traitor Guard were revealed in the Kill Team box the immediate assumption was that they were going to get the Corsair treatment. Again, the fact that they didn't is what's perplexing.

No one would have complained about Traitor Guard being included in the Codex.

a lot less people would stop complaining if we had known if there were a replacement for R&H planned aswell but then again GW can't be arsed to communicate propperly with its custommer base and rather PR hypes nonsense

True. Renegade Guard was my army. IA13 is a fantastic book from the Bligh (r.i.p. good sir) days. Got the limited edition and still enjoy reading it today.

Then GW just canned them as an entire faction.

Yes, there was a tease in BSF of new minis but radio silence for years.

Strange given in lore you have Bloodpact, Sons of Sek, et al.

I have to cross post this from the N&R thread, as it is too good a summary of the bull gak Chaos is about to suffer through:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Everything is inconsistent in this book. Why do Terminators get rules for their power fists, but Chosen don't? Why do Chaos Lords have options that require kitbashing/converting, but Exalted Champions get stuck with a single loadout? Why is it ok to kitbash/convert those Chaos Lord weapons, but not a jump pack? Why does a PA Chaos Lord have to pay for melee weapons, but Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour get them for "free"?

Nothing makes sense. There is absolutely no consistency, no plan, no design parameters. It's just arbitrary rules, over and over and over. This codex was designed by madmen.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I have to cross post this from the N&R thread, as it is too good a summary of the bull gak Chaos is about to suffer through:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Everything is inconsistent in this book. Why do Terminators get rules for their power fists, but Chosen don't? Why do Chaos Lords have options that require kitbashing/converting, but Exalted Champions get stuck with a single loadout? Why is it ok to kitbash/convert those Chaos Lord weapons, but not a jump pack? Why does a PA Chaos Lord have to pay for melee weapons, but Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour get them for "free"?

Nothing makes sense. There is absolutely no consistency, no plan, no design parameters. It's just arbitrary rules, over and over and over. This codex was designed by madmen.

It's almost as if there's a theme going on - Chaos!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I have to cross post this from the N&R thread, as it is too good a summary of the bull gak Chaos is about to suffer through:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Everything is inconsistent in this book. Why do Terminators get rules for their power fists, but Chosen don't? Why do Chaos Lords have options that require kitbashing/converting, but Exalted Champions get stuck with a single loadout? Why is it ok to kitbash/convert those Chaos Lord weapons, but not a jump pack? Why does a PA Chaos Lord have to pay for melee weapons, but Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour get them for "free"?

Nothing makes sense. There is absolutely no consistency, no plan, no design parameters. It's just arbitrary rules, over and over and over. This codex was designed by madmen.

Quite.

My Black Legion army has not seen a tabletop since before lockdowns. The new Codex might not withstand my local meta.

Need to see the full book, but it doesn't seem like much thought went into this. It's more than not respecting previous editions, the synergy is missing.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
if they gave Traitor Guard the same treatment as corsair, you all wouldve complained just as much.

Utter hogwash. And what do you base this nonsensical notion on?

From the second the Traitor Guard were revealed in the Kill Team box the immediate assumption was that they were going to get the Corsair treatment. Again, the fact that they didn't is what's perplexing.

No one would have complained about Traitor Guard being included in the Codex.

except we've also gotten traitor guard in blackstone fortress.. and when THAT came out people where speculating we might see a Triator guard codex.

ccs wrote:
It's almost as if there's a theme going on - Chaos!

I do hope that wasn't an attempt to defend this book...

Poor/inconsistent writing =/= Chaos.

BrianDavion wrote:
except we've also gotten traitor guard in blackstone fortress.. and when THAT came out people where speculating we might see a Triator guard codex.

And? People speculated about a new Red Terror for months because of one rumour engine before it was revealed to be nothing even related to that model (and then the Red Terror got deleted from the Codex). People speculate about everything.

Traitor Guard being in the new Chaos Codex, given everything else that was added, seemed like a slam dunk. The fact that it's not is weird.

Excited? No, not really.

Amused? Currently, absolutely...

My condolences to the spikey beakies for getting a codex just as well written as the ork codex

 Jidmah wrote:
My condolences to the spikey beakies for getting a codex just as well written as the ork codex

He atleast they and orks got a codex, and haven't been relegated into another codex and then shafted again / squatted sorry canned.

situation is fethed imo. but what can we do other than simply not buying , returning the faulty product or writting stern e-mails and letter.
actually letters would be better, far more difficult to ignore.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
My condolences to the spikey beakies for getting a codex just as well written as the ork codex

He atleast they and orks got a codex, and haven't been relegated into another codex and then shafted again / squatted sorry canned.

situation is fethed imo. but what can we do other than simply not buying , returning the faulty product or writting stern e-mails and letter.
actually letters would be better, far more difficult to ignore.

Nah they'll likely open them, read the first line, file under B.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
My condolences to the spikey beakies for getting a codex just as well written as the ork codex

He atleast they and orks got a codex, and haven't been relegated into another codex and then shafted again / squatted sorry canned.

situation is fethed imo. but what can we do other than simply not buying , returning the faulty product or writting stern e-mails and letter.
actually letters would be better, far more difficult to ignore.

Physical letters, ideally sent with signed-for delivery. Gotta make it as frustrating as possible.

Not Online!!! wrote:

situation is fethed imo. but what can we do other than simply not buying , returning the faulty product or writting stern e-mails and letter.
actually letters would be better, far more difficult to ignore.

Play alternative games that don't feth you over like GW does

 Jidmah wrote:
My condolences to the spikey beakies for getting a codex just as well written as the ork codex

That's exactly what I keep thinking when I look at the leaked codex pages. I'm getting the same feeling that I got when I first saw the Ork dex: a bizarre mix of rules, very few of which make sense when compared to each other, with little "synergy" (gods, I hate that word) with each other. Same writers? Or just the same level of disdain and lack of care for both factions?

Sgt. Cortez 805579 11383022 wrote:

Except we have seen the pictures and it's not "better". It might be stronger in a tournament sense, but if you lose build options, iconic units and already know this is a stopgap because of EC and the Daemon Prince rules it's not "better". If they'd have released that 2 years ago maybe CSM players wouldn't be as salty, but after waiting two years for a 2nd wound and getting just copy pasted loyalist rules again (which people argued about in 8th already) and getting worse datasheets than before (honestly, GW knows people don't like that crap since the DG codex at the start of the edition, yet they managed to do even worse) it's legitimate to criticize that book.

IMO the new demon prince is very much better. Probably unimportant in the end. The codex doesn't seem to be better then unnerfed tyranids. It could be the best of the marine books though, and it is better then what people had before. No one is going to tell me that the prior IW or NL legion rules were better under the old book. And yeah GW does tend to do odd things to marines, specialy at the end of an edition.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
My condolences to the spikey beakies for getting a codex just as well written as the ork codex

He atleast they and orks got a codex, and haven't been relegated into another codex and then shafted again / squatted sorry canned.

situation is fethed imo. but what can we do other than simply not buying , returning the faulty product or writting stern e-mails and letter.
actually letters would be better, far more difficult to ignore.

Physical letters, ideally sent with signed-for delivery. Gotta make it as frustrating as possible.

That just seems like a way to annoy secretaries.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
My condolences to the spikey beakies for getting a codex just as well written as the ork codex

He atleast they and orks got a codex, and haven't been relegated into another codex and then shafted again / squatted sorry canned.

situation is fethed imo. but what can we do other than simply not buying , returning the faulty product or writting stern e-mails and letter.
actually letters would be better, far more difficult to ignore.

Physical letters, ideally sent with signed-for delivery. Gotta make it as frustrating as possible.

That just seems like a way to annoy secretaries.

And that's a problem why?

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
My condolences to the spikey beakies for getting a codex just as well written as the ork codex

He atleast they and orks got a codex, and haven't been relegated into another codex and then shafted again / squatted sorry canned.

situation is fethed imo. but what can we do other than simply not buying , returning the faulty product or writting stern e-mails and letter.
actually letters would be better, far more difficult to ignore.

Physical letters, ideally sent with signed-for delivery. Gotta make it as frustrating as possible.

That just seems like a way to annoy secretaries.

And that's a problem why?

Because the secretaries probably aren't the ones making terrible design choices?

 vipoid wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
My condolences to the spikey beakies for getting a codex just as well written as the ork codex

He atleast they and orks got a codex, and haven't been relegated into another codex and then shafted again / squatted sorry canned.

situation is fethed imo. but what can we do other than simply not buying , returning the faulty product or writting stern e-mails and letter.
actually letters would be better, far more difficult to ignore.

Physical letters, ideally sent with signed-for delivery. Gotta make it as frustrating as possible.

That just seems like a way to annoy secretaries.

And that's a problem why?

Because the secretaries probably aren't the ones making terrible design choices?

Exactly. Its like yelling at the people behind the counter at McDonalds because they removed a McNugget from all the boxes. What do you expect Cathy the part-time worker to do about it?

 Jidmah wrote:
My condolences to the spikey beakies for getting a codex just as well written as the ork codex

As someone who plays Orks, Necrons and CSM as my only armies, 9th edition has been rough.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
My condolences to the spikey beakies for getting a codex just as well written as the ork codex

He atleast they and orks got a codex, and haven't been relegated into another codex and then shafted again / squatted sorry canned.

situation is fethed imo. but what can we do other than simply not buying , returning the faulty product or writting stern e-mails and letter.
actually letters would be better, far more difficult to ignore.

Physical letters, ideally sent with signed-for delivery. Gotta make it as frustrating as possible.

That just seems like a way to annoy secretaries.

And that's a problem why?

Because the secretaries probably aren't the ones making terrible design choices?

Exactly. Its like yelling at the people behind the counter at McDonalds because they removed a McNugget from all the boxes. What do you expect Cathy the part-time worker to do about it?

Well the secretaries aren't the ones reading the letters, so that's not an apt comparison.

Now if someone suggested calling and yelling, that'd be a bit different.

Possessed not being core just might be the tipping point for me not getting the codex, at least for now.

Karol wrote:
IMO the new demon prince is very much better.

Yet based on a model and options that are about to be completely replaced.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
That's exactly what I keep thinking when I look at the leaked codex pages. I'm getting the same feeling that I got when I first saw the Ork dex: a bizarre mix of rules, very few of which make sense when compared to each other, with little "synergy" (gods, I hate that word) with each other. Same writers? Or just the same level of disdain and lack of care for both factions?

I'm now fascinated to know what the timeline for this book was.

When was it written? How long ago? Did it have a disrupted development? Has it been sitting complete in their warehouse for months on end? Was the book done ages ago but printing could only be done now?

What is the explanation for all this crap?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
That's exactly what I keep thinking when I look at the leaked codex pages. I'm getting the same feeling that I got when I first saw the Ork dex: a bizarre mix of rules, very few of which make sense when compared to each other, with little "synergy" (gods, I hate that word) with each other. Same writers? Or just the same level of disdain and lack of care for both factions?

I'm now fascinated to know what the timeline for this book was.

When was it written? How long ago? Did it have a disrupted development? Has it been sitting complete in their warehouse for months on end? Was the book done ages ago but printing could only be done now?

What is the explanation for all this crap?

Same. Personally, I'm betting on "disrupted development". I think that they've been mucking about with it for a while. And they were still mucking about with it when they were told "It needs to go to the printers NOW". So, we get this mess of weird contradictory design paradigms. It's just a theory, though. I'd really like to know what really happened.

I just posted in N&R.

My guess:

Marketing misunderstood the "missing options" complaint as 'barrier to entry' instead of 'ripoff'.

They rewrote the three CSM codices to match options to kits.

DG came out and was hammered for Plague Marines and Blightlords. Marketing went "oh, snap!" And stopped release.

Someone in the Design Studio is determined to force Power Level. It's their baby, even if it destroys the company. They've realized that community resistance may disappear if they get units cookie cutter. They don't want to reverse course, marketing's told them CSM will not be a success. So CSM was shelved and intermittently updated, and they're now trying to hide it tanking under the HH release.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
When was it written? How long ago? Did it have a disrupted development? Has it been sitting complete in their warehouse for months on end? Was the book done ages ago but printing could only be done now?

What is the explanation for all this crap?

it would be too expensive to have all the units sitting in the warehouse waiting for the Codex
for the simple reason that the new prince is not in the book, it is more likely that the Codex was printed before the master model was done (if printing would be late, you could have still adjust it)

my guess is that the ERP system change is still screwing them over, combined with raw material and energy problems
they cannot get the boxes they need/want, they could not cast as many models as they would have liked and the the ERP change keeps on messing up the pre-release shipping and you cannot make a big release if half of the stuff sits in the wrong warehouse

PS: and I think the new prince was timed as a WE Codex release, which was planned to be now

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Possessed not being core just might be the tipping point for me not getting the codex, at least for now.

Not sure why they would be core for anyone but WB in the first place.

I think this codex is almost precisely what I expected. I'm not disappointed because GW telegraphed this level of commitment to CSM long ago and I've had time to get comfortable with that.

By selling off large portions of my CSM models.