Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Gert wrote:

Voss wrote:
Not at all, but I find it funny that somehow it doesn't apply both ways.

OP seems to be the one getting shafted by someone who's taking a very powerful unit in low-point games. Not sure how the dude winning every game they play with Magnus is having problems.

Maybe no one is 'getting shafted' by a five game hot streak? This is exactly why I said 'spin.'
Sure, losing several times in a row isn't fun, but that still isn't an obligation for the other player (whose side of the story we haven't heard and probably won't)

Voss wrote:
Maybe no one is 'getting shafted' by a five game hot streak? This is exactly why I said 'spin.'
Sure, losing several times in a row isn't fun, but that still isn't an obligation for the other player (whose side of the story we haven't heard and probably won't)

A five-game streak where the OP has said they only killed Magnus once and hasn't come close to winning the others. And if you think it's spin then I guess you think the OP is just lying in which case why are you even commenting? Are you bored and just want to pick a fight with a stranger on the internet?

Well, no. At this point I'm simply curious how far you'll double down into the idea that fairness only goes one way.

You don't seem to have any suggestions other than that the other player is obligated to throw out his expensive centerpiece model.

Voss wrote:
Well, no. At this point I'm simply curious how far you'll double down into the idea that fairness only goes one way.

It doesn't in all cases and I never pretended it does.

You don't seem to have any suggestions other than that the other player is obligated to throw out his expensive centerpiece model.

Literally suggested going back to smaller games until both players can play at a level where Magnus doesn't dominate the game you moron.

LoL I have won 2 games in 8th ed and drawed one. And one of the two won games was because the opponent didn't how up.

I am not sure if people imagine how much entitled you all sound. First move to not winning aka not having fun, is not trying to get better, changing your own army etc. No it is making the game less fun for some else. And this is somehow this non friendly non toxic mind set, where your own fun is set higher then the fun of others.

Well do we know if OP has asked if he could not bring it? If not, then the only answer here is to bring something that deals with magnus if the other player is either unwilling, cant, or wont bring something other then magnus.

Slipspace 805744 11388799 wrote:
The problem with this approach is if these players have no other opponents (which may be the case, by the sound of it) the end result is neither playing the game. It's perfectly acceptable to ask someone not to bring such a skew model in smaller points games. The opponent can decide to still bring Magnus but will then potentially have to suffer the consequences of doing so.

If they all have 1000pts armies, then asking the 1ksons player to not bring his magnus, is dropping the game size to 500-600pts right? Because it is not like they want to play 1000pts, but not with magnus they can deal with, the why doesn't matter. This is litteraly forcing someone else to buy other models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Well do we know if OP has asked if he could not bring it? If not, then the only answer here is to bring something that deals with magnus if the other player is either unwilling, cant, or wont bring something other then magnus.

Why should he ask? It is a legal option in the 1ksons codex. And if he plays 1ksons, a rather elite army, can he say that he doesn't like his opponent bringing more units then him and capturing objectives easier? Can he veto that? What if he says okey, and instead of the magnus starts bringing termintors, will it fix the games?

Karol wrote:

Slipspace 805744 11388799 wrote:
The problem with this approach is if these players have no other opponents (which may be the case, by the sound of it) the end result is neither playing the game. It's perfectly acceptable to ask someone not to bring such a skew model in smaller points games. The opponent can decide to still bring Magnus but will then potentially have to suffer the consequences of doing so.

If they all have 1000pts armies, then asking the 1ksons player to not bring his magnus, is dropping the game size to 500-600pts right? Because it is not like they want to play 1000pts, but not with magnus they can deal with, the why doesn't matter. This is litteraly forcing someone else to buy other models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Well do we know if OP has asked if he could not bring it? If not, then the only answer here is to bring something that deals with magnus if the other player is either unwilling, cant, or wont bring something other then magnus.

Why should he ask? It is a legal option in the 1ksons codex.

Im not saying he should. My point is entirely this.
If OP is having an issue with an oponent bringing a unit that he just cant deal with with in the games he is playing, he has 2 options. The first, is to ask his buddy/friend to no bring it or use something else beucase he has no way to deal with it so the games are not fun.
Or option 2, bring something that can specifically deal with magnus.
If he does not want to, or cant do option 1, then his only other option is option 2.

Playing warhammer should be about having a good time weather you are winning or not, some of my most fun games i ended up loosing, but no one enjoys getting stomped and just basically setting up models to take them off the board. If OP does not want to have that experience, not sure if he is having that or not, then those are his options.

BigShotBeale wrote:
My mate has recently started using Magnus the red in our skirmishes usually around 1000 point armies each, we are fairly new to the game so we just have our armies fight or capture a point.

He has used him in 5 games and won all 5 by a long shot, I've only been able to kill him once but the rolls were heavily in my favour and he still wiped out 90% of my army and just cleaned up with his other units.

My question is, is there a rule or anything that stops him using a God like unit when my strongest unit is a regular Deamon Prince, or are the only limitations points?

What army are you using? You say Daemon Prince, does that mean Daemons or Chaos Space Marines?

I haven't fought against Magnus in a long time, but in the last game against him I was able to blow him away with Devastators on turn 1. My loyalist Devs have better options than the Chaos Havocs, but I wonder if Obliterators could do a good anti-Magnus job for you.

It's also possible that Magnus has another achilles heel that I'm less aware of.

 Insectum7 wrote:

BigShotBeale wrote:
My mate has recently started using Magnus the red in our skirmishes usually around 1000 point armies each, we are fairly new to the game so we just have our armies fight or capture a point.

He has used him in 5 games and won all 5 by a long shot, I've only been able to kill him once but the rolls were heavily in my favour and he still wiped out 90% of my army and just cleaned up with his other units.

My question is, is there a rule or anything that stops him using a God like unit when my strongest unit is a regular Deamon Prince, or are the only limitations points?

What army are you using? You say Daemon Prince, does that mean Daemons or Chaos Space Marines?

I haven't fought against Magnus in a long time, but in the last game against him I was able to blow him away with Devastators on turn 1. My loyalist Devs have better options than the Chaos Havocs, but I wonder if Obliterators could do a good anti-Magnus job for you.

It's also possible that Magnus has another achilles heel that I'm less aware of.

His achilles heel is, he does not get to go first.

To beat magnus you basically just need something on the field that is a threat to him. This will force him to have to spend most of his power just buffing himself to not get oneshot. Becuase magnus overall is a really weak unit, he is a T7 that survives on a 4++ that can be buffed to a 3++ and i THINK he only has 18 wounds.
He can very easily be bracketed so loose his casting bonus. The way you beat magnus is just throw high damage weapons at him as you said, devs murderer him another good thing is anything that can deep strike and shoot heavy weapons at him. So funny enough, drop pod sternguards or what ever those primarus melta units are, if you can get them to deep strike you can melt magnus.

Haha, or ally in Tau and take a couple Hammerheads, lol.

BigShotBeale wrote:
we are fairly new to the game so we just have our armies fight or capture a point.

There's your problem. You beat death star lists in low point games by playing the normal missions and out-scoring them on primary VP. Playing "just meet in the middle and kill each other" games rewards the death star list by removing what would normally be its crippling weakness.

And remember to put sufficient line of sight blocking terrain on the table. The death star shouldn't be able to just stand in the middle of the table and kill everything.

OP, if you don’t like it, don’t play him. I like a general “ no named character” without special request rule. On top of that, such a huge warlord should attach to huge wars, aside from the special narrative scenario that MIGHT be fun to play at a thousand points, once… he doesn’t belong n games at that scale imho…

The answer is, your friend is within his rights to use any legal model in his lists as far as the rules of the game goes. And it's not his fault that Magnus might not be well designed for lower point games.

But behind that answer is the truth that GW games don't tend to be well balanced, and bad match ups are easy to end up with without a pretty good knowledge of how the game works developed over time. This is a difficult problem to solve when you only have a small collection, and some of the advice in this thread is somewhat based on the idea that you'll have easy access to ways to make your collection bigger or swap it around.

If you don't, then you might try changing the scenario to give yourself a closer game, like make it an assassination mission where if you kill Magnus you win for example. But ultimately you're going to have to fix it in a way that is acceptable to you and your buddy, because I don't think it's gonna get fixed by GW any time soon.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
His achilles heel is, he does not get to go first.

To beat magnus you basically just need something on the field that is a threat to him. This will force him to have to spend most of his power just buffing himself to not get oneshot. Becuase magnus overall is a really weak unit, he is a T7 that survives on a 4++ that can be buffed to a 3++ and i THINK he only has 18 wounds.
He can very easily be bracketed so loose his casting bonus. The way you beat magnus is just throw high damage weapons at him as you said, devs murderer him another good thing is anything that can deep strike and shoot heavy weapons at him. So funny enough, drop pod sternguards or what ever those primarus melta units are, if you can get them to deep strike you can melt magnus.

You're on 8th edition Magnus.

He can no longer go 3++. The -1 to be hit is crucial though, but on most tables there is some dense nearby. He now has -1D and AoC to help stay alive. Typically I buff him from my other units and leave him free to do damage.

Only 8th edition gunlines can smoke Magnus ( or Tau with a Hammerhead or two ) in a turn. Most 9th editions lists do not have the firepower to kill him outright since you need to be able to run the mission.

Have any of you noticed the OP hasn't participated in this thread since opening it? Why doesn't everyone just take a break and wait to see what he says? Then move on from there.

@Daedelus: How many wounds does he have these days?

 Insectum7 wrote:
@Daedelus: How many wounds does he have these days?

18.

I honestly recommend you expand your army. Magnus isn't OP at 2k points, but he may well be OP at 1k points. And I also recommend you play with other people too. Don't only play with your friend. The two of you will end up list tailoring specifically against each other.

Even at 1.5k, 1750 points, Magnus will probably be more bearable. Again though, I recommend you play with more than just one person.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
His achilles heel is, he does not get to go first.

To beat magnus you basically just need something on the field that is a threat to him. This will force him to have to spend most of his power just buffing himself to not get oneshot. Becuase magnus overall is a really weak unit, he is a T7 that survives on a 4++ that can be buffed to a 3++ and i THINK he only has 18 wounds.
He can very easily be bracketed so loose his casting bonus. The way you beat magnus is just throw high damage weapons at him as you said, devs murderer him another good thing is anything that can deep strike and shoot heavy weapons at him. So funny enough, drop pod sternguards or what ever those primarus melta units are, if you can get them to deep strike you can melt magnus.

You're on 8th edition Magnus.

He can no longer go 3++. The -1 to be hit is crucial though, but on most tables there is some dense nearby. He now has -1D and AoC to help stay alive. Typically I buff him from my other units and leave him free to do damage.

Only 8th edition gunlines can smoke Magnus ( or Tau with a Hammerhead or two ) in a turn. Most 9th editions lists do not have the firepower to kill him outright since you need to be able to run the mission.

HOLY CRAP his 3++ is gone?! jesus that makes him even easier. I basically just put him on a shelf in 8th and let him collect a rubric armies worth of dust.

ccs wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
@Daedelus: How many wounds does he have these days?

18.

Oh hell that's just two Dev squads with Miltimeltas at short range. Not even using rerolls for that.

4 Tactical Squads with Plasma, Combi-Plasma, Multimelta and rerolls is:
0.777×0.4×0.333×(28×2)+(8
×0.777×0.777×0.5×2)+(4×2
×0.777×0.777×0.5×4.5) = 21.5w.

Edit: 27.5 if I give them Melta/Combi melta instead of the Plas and they're in short range.

Thanks for all the advice, got a lot more comments on this than I expected. We will be upping the points in the future but idk if we have enough units it's to make it to 2000.

I'm playing CSM and have Havocs that do decent against Magnus but he's able to drop his scarabs reinforcements really close to them turn 1 so I try to focus their fire on them. I can't put too many units in front of my Havocs as we use the rule of not being able to shoot though dense units. Again we are quite new to playing 40k so we may be getting some rules wrong.

Is there another unit you would recommend or should I focus on protecting my Havocs?

BigShotBeale wrote:
Thanks for all the advice, got a lot more comments on this than I expected. We will be upping the points in the future but idk if we have enough units it's to make it to 2000.

I'm playing CSM and have Havocs that do decent against Magnus but he's able to drop his scarabs reinforcements really close to them turn 1 so I try to focus their fire on them. I can't put too many units in front of my Havocs as we use the rule of not being able to shoot though dense units. Again we are quite new to playing 40k so we may be getting some rules wrong.

Is there another unit you would recommend or should I focus on protecting my Havocs?

Well for one there's no "can't shoot through dense unit" in 40k...If you can see it you can shoot and it's VERY HARD to block LOS without solid walls. More so with model size of Magnus.

BigShotBeale wrote:
Thanks for all the advice, got a lot more comments on this than I expected. We will be upping the points in the future but idk if we have enough units it's to make it to 2000.

I'm playing CSM and have Havocs that do decent against Magnus but he's able to drop his scarabs reinforcements really close to them turn 1 so I try to focus their fire on them. I can't put too many units in front of my Havocs as we use the rule of not being able to shoot though dense units. Again we are quite new to playing 40k so we may be getting some rules wrong.

Is there another unit you would recommend or should I focus on protecting my Havocs?

I'm with what most people here have said - ignore him. He is one hell of a points sink at that size game and you can simply focus down and wipe out the rest of his army whilst playing the objective game, especially if he is also taking Scarab terminators as those are also expensive but really slow and easy to avoid.

Havocs are a good option as are Obliterators if you do want to take him down but honestly, I just wouldn't bother.

Yes he is. If he bought it and enjoys running him then sure.

Try just tinkering with your list - he isn't super chicken levels (Aeotos'rau'keres) apologies if spelling is wrong.

Few more heavy weapons or some such may help. Failing that just rock up with Robot Girlyman one time and go " told ya, not fun "

 Insectum7 wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
@Daedelus: How many wounds does he have these days?

18.

Oh hell that's just two Dev squads with Miltimeltas at short range. Not even using rerolls for that.

4 Tactical Squads with Plasma, Combi-Plasma, Multimelta and rerolls is:
0.777×0.4×0.333×(28×2)+(8
×0.777×0.777×0.5×2)+(4×2
×0.777×0.777×0.5×4.5) = 21.5w.

Edit: 27.5 if I give them Melta/Combi melta instead of the Plas and they're in short range.

You guys are underestimating Magnus a good bit.

He would never drop into half range of infantry MM without being able to annihilate them. If you somehow crowd four units around him then I probably have the rest of the table open.

8 MM shots at full range have 0% chance to kill Magnus and about 25% to do absolutely nothing. In half it is less than 3% to kill him outright.

And this is without the two rerolls that I typically have available and ignoring the rest of the army that will often be Scarabs who need AT weapons to be killed as well.

All that aside I am uncertain how Magnus will do in this next season with the CP changes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BigShotBeale wrote:
Thanks for all the advice, got a lot more comments on this than I expected. We will be upping the points in the future but idk if we have enough units it's to make it to 2000.

I'm playing CSM and have Havocs that do decent against Magnus but he's able to drop his scarabs reinforcements really close to them turn 1 so I try to focus their fire on them. I can't put too many units in front of my Havocs as we use the rule of not being able to shoot though dense units. Again we are quite new to playing 40k so we may be getting some rules wrong.

Is there another unit you would recommend or should I focus on protecting my Havocs?

As mentioned above that is not a rule. If you can get some cultists in the way. Don't charge them or anything like that. You basically want to create denial zone for Magnus' movement and since movement comes first he can't respond to it -- just be sure you don't place anything in heroic intervention range.

Effectively the cultists should look like a well spread out cloud that will push the Scarabs back and give him fewer movement options. Reinforce that deepstrike bubble with some spawn or other similarly cheap units.

It would help if you have Helbrute Plasma or similar as the flat 3 damage can force him to use CP on the -1D, which will be a shrinking resource that keeps Magnus from getting extra casts or save rerolls if you intend to go after him.

Also, Scarabs suck in melee, so, if you have a Daemon Prince that can charge from behind cover use that as a way to punish the scarabs without having to dump tons of shooting into them.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
@Daedelus: How many wounds does he have these days?

18.

Oh hell that's just two Dev squads with Miltimeltas at short range. Not even using rerolls for that.

4 Tactical Squads with Plasma, Combi-Plasma, Multimelta and rerolls is:
0.777×0.4×0.333×(28×2)+(8
×0.777×0.777×0.5×2)+(4×2
×0.777×0.777×0.5×4.5) = 21.5w.

Edit: 27.5 if I give them Melta/Combi melta instead of the Plas and they're in short range.

You guys are underestimating Magnus a good bit.

Insectum might be. I just reported Big Reds # of wounds.
But, based upon past games against him, I'm 100% certain that I can deal with him.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
@Daedelus: How many wounds does he have these days?

18.

Oh hell that's just two Dev squads with Miltimeltas at short range. Not even using rerolls for that.

4 Tactical Squads with Plasma, Combi-Plasma, Multimelta and rerolls is:
0.777×0.4×0.333×(28×2)+(8
×0.777×0.777×0.5×2)+(4×2
×0.777×0.777×0.5×4.5) = 21.5w.

Edit: 27.5 if I give them Melta/Combi melta instead of the Plas and they're in short range.

You guys are underestimating Magnus a good bit.

He would never drop into half range of infantry MM without being able to annihilate them. If you somehow crowd four units around him then I probably have the rest of the table open.

8 MM shots at full range have 0% chance to kill Magnus and about 25% to do absolutely nothing. In half it is less than 3% to kill him outright.

And this is without the two rerolls that I typically have available and ignoring the rest of the army that will often be Scarabs who need AT weapons to be killed as well.

All that aside I am uncertain how Magnus will do in this next season with the CP changes.

Hehe. You're understimating how much firepower I like to pack ino my armies.

Now, to be fair, I haven't played much of 9th with Marines. I mostly played with Nids before this latest slump in games. Maybe there are stressors that will come into account when I get to playing again. But looking at the defensive stats and the sorts of armies I tend to build, I'm very confident I can down Magnus with me-olde Tactical+Devastator+Sternguard builds.

 Insectum7 wrote:

ccs wrote:
Oh hell that's just two Dev squads with Miltimeltas at short range. Not even using rerolls for that.

4 Tactical Squads with Plasma, Combi-Plasma, Multimelta and rerolls is:
0.777×0.4×0.333×(28×2)+(8
×0.777×0.777×0.5×2)+(4×2
×0.777×0.777×0.5×4.5) = 21.5w.

Edit: 27.5 if I give them Melta/Combi melta instead of the Plas and they're in short range.

This comment is ludicrous. The OP is talking about a 1000 point game. Your response is "oh, well, 800 points of tactical marines with 200 points of support can statistically defeat Magnus if they start within 12 inches and he doesn't move or attack first and there are no penalties and Magnus doesn't have any save buffs or re-rolls."

And yet you toss it off as if this means dealing with Magnus is easy.

 dadx6 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Oh hell that's just two Dev squads with Miltimeltas at short range. Not even using rerolls for that.

4 Tactical Squads with Plasma, Combi-Plasma, Multimelta and rerolls is:
0.777×0.4×0.333×(28×2)+(8
×0.777×0.777×0.5×2)+(4×2
×0.777×0.777×0.5×4.5) = 21.5w.

Edit: 27.5 if I give them Melta/Combi melta instead of the Plas and they're in short range.

This comment is ludicrous. The OP is talking about a 1000 point game. Your response is "oh, well, 800 points of tactical marines with 200 points of support can statistically defeat Magnus if they start within 12 inches and he doesn't move or attack first and there are no penalties and Magnus doesn't have any save buffs or re-rolls."

And yet you toss it off as if this means dealing with Magnus is easy.

800 points of Tac squads is in no way ideal, it's just possible to take out Magnus using a unit that so many people seem to hate. My first sentence, you may note, is about how two Dev squads without rerolls can kill Magnus. That means a single Dev squad can bracket him, especially if you're buffing them with rerolls or whatever.

The technique for big-nasties that I like to use is to run the numbers for the ideal situation. Then work backwards from there to find something practical. Seeing that a Devastator squad can bracket him is a good starting point. Seeing that my basic troops can also do significant damage in the right position is also handy. To me that means that on-table I can have sufficient ability to knock him out.

Question, does he have a 2+ armor save or a 3+? I rememder 3+. Trying to confirm how many bolter shots it takes to kill him. At the moment I get 180ish with rerolls.
180×0.777×0.4×0.333=18.6