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Psychocouac wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:


You are aware that trans people can live in poverty as well and are in fact far more likely to be the victims of violence when doing so?

I'm aware. Does that dismissed the others? When you don't have anything to eat, or a roof upon your head, the least of your problem is knowing if other people see you as a man or a woman.

Stop talking for us.

 Blndmage wrote:
If I'm coming off hostile it's because I've sat back and seen enough sexist, homophobic, racist, transphobic gak on these boards and this thread is explicitly where my experience with the community, and by this I mean here on dakka, is relevant.

I haven't seen any other trans folks willing to out themselves for this, but I am. This could literally mean 4can folks will dox me. No joking. Being trans on the internet is an ever changing field of landmines that are people's bigotry.

If another trans person wants to give their thoughts and discuss things that's great. But you might want to stop and consider why I seem to be the only trans woman here. The community is scary. It's the reason none of my queer friends will touch the hobby.

A couple of my friends over on instagram shared the goonhammer thing on their stories, (a thing which disappears after 24 hours) and got endless messages of gak from people. It's a small minority of pricks but they make it difficult for people to want to feel part of something.

I know it's so easy for people to dismiss this as a non-issue because it doesn’t concern them, but it is a problem.

 Blndmage wrote:
If I'm coming off hostile it's because I've sat back and seen enough sexist, homophobic, racist, transphobic gak on these boards and this thread is explicitly where my experience with the community, and by this I mean here on dakka, is relevant.

Which, again, is inexcusable but what does that have to do with the topic here? I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt here but it seems like you're trying to imply that anyone who doesn't agree with the claim that the GW quote is transphobic or the need for female space marines is equivalent to the violent donkey-caves at your local store.

If another trans person wants to give their thoughts and discuss things that's great. But you might want to stop and consider why I seem to be the only trans woman here. The community is scary. It's the reason none of my queer friends will touch the hobby.

OTOH I see lots of trans people on reddit. Trans pride miniatures are a common thing, as are people proudly declaring their identity in their profiles. So this is clearly not something inherent to 40k or to anything GW is doing.

 Blndmage wrote:
If I'm coming off hostile it's because I've sat back and seen enough sexist, homophobic, racist, transphobic gak on these boards and this thread is explicitly where my experience with the community, and by this I mean here on dakka, is relevant.

I haven't seen any other trans folks willing to out themselves for this, but I am. This could literally mean 4can folks will dox me. No joking. Being trans on the internet is an ever changing field of landmines that are people's bigotry.

If another trans person wants to give their thoughts and discuss things that's great. But you might want to stop and consider why I seem to be the only trans woman here. The community is scary. It's the reason none of my queer friends will touch the hobby.

I know multiple trans women who play Infinity.

Hecaton wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:
If I'm coming off hostile it's because I've sat back and seen enough sexist, homophobic, racist, transphobic gak on these boards and this thread is explicitly where my experience with the community, and by this I mean here on dakka, is relevant.

I haven't seen any other trans folks willing to out themselves for this, but I am. This could literally mean 4can folks will dox me. No joking. Being trans on the internet is an ever changing field of landmines that are people's bigotry.

If another trans person wants to give their thoughts and discuss things that's great. But you might want to stop and consider why I seem to be the only trans woman here. The community is scary. It's the reason none of my queer friends will touch the hobby.

I know multiple trans women who play Infinity.

How many do you know that play 40k? That's the topic here, not other wargames.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
There can be more than one dogwhistle people who are transphobes can use my friend. "Biological male" is not where it ends.

Of course. But none of them have anything to do with the GW quote. I've had lots of experience dealing with transphobes and their rhetoric and I can't find even the slightest connection between them. It's a ridiculous reach, to the point that pretty much any reference to gender or sex could be "transphobic" by that standard.

 Blndmage wrote:

How many do you know that play 40k? That's the topic here, not other wargames.

You said "the hobby," not 40k.

Hecaton wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Isn't that basically the Sisters of Silence though? Both they and Custodes form the Talons of the Emperor, do they not?
I always considered SoS to be to Custodes what SoB are to Marines.

They're very different, thematically. If SoS were more of their own thing I'd make an army of them. Sororitas are their own thing, wield political power in the setting, etc. Whereas the Sisters of Silence, as per the Custodes codex, are presented as emphatically *lesser* than the Custodes (and not just in terms of personal prowess).

Huh, weird.
You'd think SoS would be considered to be a lot more important due to their role as anti-psyker specialists and the black ships.
Also that whole thing about them being the "Left Hand of the Emperor"
Anyway, if Custodes got their own army, so should Sisters of Silence. GW opened a bit of a pandora's box with that sort of minor army nonsense.

Hecaton wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:

How many do you know that play 40k? That's the topic here, not other wargames.

You said "the hobby," not 40k.

..yes... referring to the 40k hobby..it's been presented as a hobby all its own for a long time

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Huh, weird.
You'd think SoS would be considered to be a lot more important due to their role as anti-psyker specialists and the black ships.
Also that whole thing about them being the "Left Hand of the Emperor"

I feel like the Custodes fanbase would be upset. They're very... particular about things.

 Blndmage wrote:
How many do you know that play 40k?

I know seven (not counting anyone who I know through DakkaDakka) who collect and paint models; of those, maybe three play regularly. That tracks pretty well with what I’ve seen more broadly.

Letter signed, thanks for bringing this to my attention

 Blndmage wrote:

..yes... referring to the 40k hobby..it's been presented as a hobby all its own for a long time

Miniature wargaming is the hobby.

Hecaton wrote:

Women are traditionally not interested in, say, military science fiction, which is the kind of novel that's most like 40k.

The reason is pretty simple here. I'm a huge fan of science fiction novels from the 50s to 80s, the classics. But they're mostly written by males, with the overwhelming majority of characters as male, pretty much every protagonist is a male and all the motivations involved are centred on males' needs and desires.

My favorite american writer and one of the most important sci-fi authors (if not THE most important author), Philip K. Dick, was a genius and I've read 40-50 novels written by him. In his works there are tons of ideas which were decades ahead of times but.... there are never more than a couple of women in his works and they're pretty much all negative characters. Or love interests for the protagonist at best.

Now today we have tons of sci-fi works, in every field of art, that are focussed on females or at least they aren't focussed on straight white males. And females are pretty common in many fanbases from such works. Look at how many female cosplayers show up at their dedicated events, and look how many of them choose costumes from the more inclusive sci-fi universes and how many from classic science fiction instead.

Psychocouac wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:


You are aware that trans people can live in poverty as well and are in fact far more likely to be the victims of violence when doing so?

I'm aware. Does that dismissed the others? When you don't have anything to eat, or a roof upon your head, the least of your problem is knowing if other people see you as a man or a woman.

No I think being subject to serious violence up to and including death is actually worse than not having a roof over your head and going hungry for a while.

Being trans opens yourself up to serious violence that exacerbates tremendously the worse your other conditions are.

Or to put it another way: it is better to be a cis man (or woman) and live in poverty than to be a trans woman and live in poverty. Sure, a millionaire trans woman's life will almost always be better than being a homeless cis man. But that doesn't imply that trans issues are rich people's problems.

 Blndmage wrote:
other people see you as a man or a woman.

Stop talking for us.

But I identify as yours.

 Blackie wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

Women are traditionally not interested in, say, military science fiction, which is the kind of novel that's most like 40k.

The reason is pretty simple here. I'm a huge fan of science fiction novels from the 50s to 80s, the classics. But they're mostly written by males, with the overwhelming majority of characters as male, pretty much every protagonist is a male and all the motivations involved are centred on males' needs and desires.

My favorite american writer and one of the most important sci-fi authors (if not THE most important author), Philip K. Dick, was a genius and I've read 40-50 novels written by him. In his works there are tons of ideas which were decades ahead of times but.... there are never more than a couple of women in his works and they're pretty much all negative characters. Or love interests for the protagonist at best.

Now today we have tons of sci-fi works, in every field of art, that are focussed on females or at least they aren't focussed on straight white males. And females are pretty common in many fanbases from such works. Look at how many female cosplayers show up at their dedicated events, and look how many of them choose costumes from the more inclusive sci-fi universes and how many from classic science fiction instead.

Pretty good post ngl

Hecaton wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:

..yes... referring to the 40k hobby..it's been presented as a hobby all its own for a long time

Miniature wargaming is the hobby.

Not for everyone. Someone might just read, others might just paint or do both this things. Without playing once.

Hecaton wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Huh, weird.
You'd think SoS would be considered to be a lot more important due to their role as anti-psyker specialists and the black ships.
Also that whole thing about them being the "Left Hand of the Emperor"

I feel like the Custodes fanbase would be upset. They're very... particular about things.

I meant as important, rather than "lesser."
The Custodes also have a really important role to play. Guarding the Emperor is not a small matter.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Isn't that basically the Sisters of Silence though? Both they and Custodes form the Talons of the Emperor, do they not?
I always considered SoS to be to Custodes what SoB are to Marines.

Naw man, lol.

SoS work with the Custodes but they aren't. Also a bit of a shame, would like them to have more of an identity beyond the bald chicks the Custodes have tag along to feth up psychic powers.

 Blackie wrote:

Not for everyone. Someone might just read, others might just paint or do both this things. Without playing once.

I don't consider them part of my hobby then.

CadianSgtBob wrote:

 PetitionersCity wrote:
Something also worth reading around this issue (which I think Gert has?), is Shon Faye's The Transgender Issue:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Transgender-Issue-Argument-Justice/dp/0241423147

You can read many very positive and some positive critical reviews google

Can you summarize what this book has to say about the GW quote in specific or 40k in general?

SgtBob, I've agreed with some of what you've said in this thread, but don't be facetious - the author of the petition, which inspired Goonhammer, is a British trans person. There are very few books from within British trans communities explaining and analysing widely the experiences of British trans people, and this is very helpful for contextualising where this is coming from and why the petition author - and a good number of British hobbyists - feel that way. It's as relevant as the More in Common Report or reading Hansard of the parliamentary debates around this, as much as also trying to understand what these are reacting against - be it Material Girls by Stock, Rowling's infamous essay, or other gender critical works. Reading "both" or multiple sides of this ongoing debate contextualises the continuing socio-cultural moment this rulebook arrived in, one that is both a media/political discussion and many people's lived reality - and no piece of culture is divorced from its context(s). Faye's work is heralded as pretty unique among works by trans authors - it isn't a confessional, nor an academic text, but a cross-society analysis of being trans in the UK - so it might be the best place to start reading about this?

GH of course writes from that much more challenging and openly bitter, divided US context - as I said earlier in thread I feel some of the tone of the article is really shaped by last Friday and many other parts of recent politics, and the reality that trans people in many parts of the US are really really vulnerable. That possibly explains their censorious approach to differing opinion, even if i think it's not the right approach - we need discussion, and listening, and learning.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

I meant as important, rather than "lesser."
The Custodes also have a really important role to play. Guarding the Emperor is not a small matter.

Yeah, and I think that would bother the Custodes fanbase. It already bothers them that Astartes are too close to them in stats.

 blood reaper wrote:
reveals of the major issues with engaging with trans issues).

What do you mean friend?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Isn't that basically the Sisters of Silence though? Both they and Custodes form the Talons of the Emperor, do they not?
I always considered SoS to be to Custodes what SoB are to Marines.

Naw man, lol.

SoS work with the Custodes but they aren't. Also a bit of a shame, would like them to have more of an identity beyond the bald chicks the Custodes have tag along to feth up psychic powers.

I've just been considering starting an SoS force for small games. They remind me of Pariahs.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Huh, weird.
You'd think SoS would be considered to be a lot more important due to their role as anti-psyker specialists and the black ships.
Also that whole thing about them being the "Left Hand of the Emperor"
Anyway, if Custodes got their own army, so should Sisters of Silence. GW opened a bit of a pandora's box with that sort of minor army nonsense.

I wouldn't mind it. The way they are portrayed on the tabletop now is pretty lame.

 PetitionersCity wrote:
SgtBob, I've agreed with some of what you've said in this thread, but don't be facetious - the author of the petition, which inspired Goonhammer, is a British trans person. There are very few books from within British trans communities explaining and analysing widely the experiences of British trans people, and this is very helpful for contextualising where this is coming from and why the petition author - and a good number of British hobbyists - feel that way. It's as relevant as the More in Common Report or reading Hansard of the parliamentary debates around this, as much as other key pieces of the UK debate, be they Material Girls by Stock, Rowling's infamous essay, or other gender critical works. Reading these contextualises the continuing socio-cultural moment this rulebook arrived in - and no piece of culture is divorced from its context(s), alas. But Faye's work is heralded as pretty unique among works by trans authors - it isn't a confessional, nor an academic text, but a cross-society analysis of being trans in the UK.

GH of course writes from that much more challenging and openly bitter, divided US context - as I said earlier in thread I feel some of the tone of the article is really shaped by last Friday and many other parts of recent politics. That possibly explains their censorious approach to differing opinion, even if i think it's not the right approach - we need discussion, and listening, and learning.

I'm not being facetious at all, it was a genuine request to summarize what is relevant about that book. I doubt anyone is going to read an entire book based on a forum post but they certainly aren't going to do it if you can't even explain why it is relevant to mention it. And it would add way more to the conversation here if you can summarize its key points for immediate discussion instead of, at best, waiting until people can buy and read an entire book.

(Because let's be realistic here, even with prime shipping the odds are pretty slim that the book will even ship to me before this thread inevitably gets trolled enough to get locked.)

 Void__Dragon wrote:
would like them to have more of an identity beyond the bald chicks the Custodes have tag along to feth up psychic powers

Same here. They seem a lot more suitable to be a 40k faction than the Custodes (I like and collect Custodes so not arguing for them to go away, either) because they have a wider presence.

 Blndmage wrote:
If I'm coming off hostile it's because I've sat back and seen enough sexist, homophobic, racist, transphobic gak on these boards and this thread is explicitly where my experience with the community, and by this I mean here on dakka, is relevant.

I haven't seen any other trans folks willing to out themselves for this, but I am. This could literally mean 4can folks will dox me. No joking. Being trans on the internet is an ever changing field of landmines that are people's bigotry.

If another trans person wants to give their thoughts and discuss things that's great. But you might want to stop and consider why I seem to be the only trans woman here. The community is scary. It's the reason none of my queer friends will touch the hobby.

4chan doesn't care about you and doxxing is against the rules anyway so I doubt it. Also the reason you're the only transwoman here is because there just aren't very many transwomen in the hobby. Transgender people as a whole are 0.6% of the US population, which is about 2 million rounded up, and an even smaller percentage of those 2 million play 40k. I'd be willing to bet the number of transwomen in the hobby barely scrapes into 4 digits.

 Manchu wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
would like them to have more of an identity beyond the bald chicks the Custodes have tag along to feth up psychic powers

Same here. They seem a lot more suitable to be a 40k faction than the Custodes (I like and collect Custodes so not arguing for them to go away, either) because they have a wider presence.

I just wish they had more than 1 box, like, is there a model for a Knight-Centura? I'd love even a few more models. Needing multiples of 1 box to make an army seems to fit Custodes.