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 Void__Dragon wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
reveals of the major issues with engaging with trans issues).

What do you mean friend?

I think there's a lack of nuance in the subject. I.e., I basically think that the problem they have with the phrase "biological male" is nonsensical. I think you can hold this position and also believe trans people deserve medical care and the right to exist without harassment.

Incidentally this reveals why the article is nothing more than pseudo-activism; those are actual, tangible gains (meaningful ones) - but the article is interested in adjusting a line of text most likely copy and pasted from a previous rulebook somewhere to appease the feelings of a small subset (of a subset) who probably don't even buy stuff.

CadianSgtBob wrote:

 PetitionersCity wrote:
SgtBob, I've agreed with some of what you've said in this thread, but don't be facetious - the author of the petition, which inspired Goonhammer, is a British trans person. There are very few books from within British trans communities explaining and analysing widely the experiences of British trans people, and this is very helpful for contextualising where this is coming from and why the petition author - and a good number of British hobbyists - feel that way. It's as relevant as the More in Common Report or reading Hansard of the parliamentary debates around this, as much as other key pieces of the UK debate, be they Material Girls by Stock, Rowling's infamous essay, or other gender critical works. Reading these contextualises the continuing socio-cultural moment this rulebook arrived in - and no piece of culture is divorced from its context(s), alas. But Faye's work is heralded as pretty unique among works by trans authors - it isn't a confessional, nor an academic text, but a cross-society analysis of being trans in the UK.

GH of course writes from that much more challenging and openly bitter, divided US context - as I said earlier in thread I feel some of the tone of the article is really shaped by last Friday and many other parts of recent politics. That possibly explains their censorious approach to differing opinion, even if i think it's not the right approach - we need discussion, and listening, and learning.

I'm not being facetious at all, it was a genuine request to summarize what is relevant about that book. I doubt anyone is going to read an entire book based on a forum post but they certainly aren't going to do it if you can't even explain why it is relevant to mention it. And it would add way more to the conversation here if you can summarize its key points for immediate discussion instead of, at best, waiting until people can buy and read an entire book.

(Because let's be realistic here, even with prime shipping the odds are pretty slim that the book will even ship to me before this thread inevitably gets trolled enough to get locked.)

Ah cool! Essentially, Faye tries to examine how people live in the UK as trans - and the systemic barriers they encounter. Each chapter takes a different lens - housing, mental health, etc. A number of people have picked her up on her referencing - mixing academic, peer-reviewed texts with self-selecting online surveys on Stonewall, for example - and she sometimes make sweeping statements that are harder to justify as blanket statements, but overall the examination of non-middle class (or non-elite) trans experience is well worth spending time with. There is some context from the US too.

It is out in the US on amazon and as an ebook - https://www.amazon.com/Transgender-Issue-Argument-Justice/dp/0241423147 - a cheaper paperback will be out in September too.

 Blndmage wrote:
I just wish they had more than 1 box, like, is there a model for a Knight-Centura? I'd love even a few more models. Needing multiples of 1 box to make an army seems to fit Custodes.

Yes, and the sooner the better. The current box is cool but they need a few more to really develop the aesthetic. OTOH, 5 for 55USD, holy moly, this is the real issue ...

 Void__Dragon wrote:


No I think being subject to serious violence up to and including death is actually worse than not having a roof over your head and going hungry for a while.

Being trans opens yourself up to serious violence that exacerbates tremendously the worse your other conditions are.

Or to put it another way: it is better to be a cis man (or woman) and live in poverty than to be a trans woman and live in poverty. Sure, a millionaire trans woman's life will almost always be better than being a homeless cis man. But that doesn't imply that trans issues are rich people's problems.

Wow. The lack of empathy towards people that are not part of social group is astonishing.

I've seen children starving in the streets, begging for whatever I could give them. Beaten by a shop owner if they dare approached me near their business. One stealing a glass of alcohol and drink it like it was water cause it has nothing else to drink from. One receiving multiple machete hits in the legs for not running away faster. And I'm not talking about the one kidnapped in plain street to have their organs harvest for black market.

But you'll surely use that like an argument too? Lgtb+ members suffer that too right? In an equal amount or worse for sure. You sure have it the worse in this world.

Some people should truly and objectively reflect on the luck they have to have "the problems" they are dealing with. Humble down a bit maybe.

 Manchu wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:
I just wish they had more than 1 box, like, is there a model for a Knight-Centura? I'd love even a few more models. Needing multiples of 1 box to make an army seems to fit Custodes.

Yes, and the sooner the better. The current box is cool but they need a few more to really develop the aesthetic. OTOH, 5 for 55USD, holy moly, this is the real issue ...

Ya, I'm looking at a 25PL force, WOW that's expensive!
On the hunt for something similar but female roman Centurions or legionnaires are hard to find.

I'd make them a Wakanda style army, but I'd feel waaay too uncomfortable to play them in a store, as a white girl.

 blood reaper wrote:
I basically think that the problem they have with the phrase "biological male" is nonsensical.

To be clear: there absolutely is an issue with the phrase "biological male" because it's a transphobe dog whistle intended to mean "you aren't really a woman, you're just a deluded male".

The problem with the Goonhammer article is not that they're wrong about "biological male" being a red flag that the author is a transphobe, it's that GW doesn't actually use that phrase and the context of the quote has nothing to do with trans issues.

Psychocouac wrote:
Lgtb+ members suffer that too right? In an equal amount or worse for sure.

Oui. So take the kind of poverty you are describing. Now add on top of that being discriminated against not only because of your poverty but also because of your gender or sexuality. Furthermore, there is some evidence that being discriminated against because of gender and sexuality also makes it more likely that someone is financially vulnerable.

I think you guys are talking about different things. You seem to be talking about “first world problems” — how people in the West are worried about whether we might be playing with toy soldiers in the wrong way — while people in some other parts of the world struggle daily to obtain food and water. Meanwhile, V_D is talking about how trans people are more likely to struggle harder than cis people when it comes to making a living, having a stable place to live, etc.

 Manchu wrote:

Psychocouac wrote:
Lgtb+ members suffer that too right? In an equal amount or worse for sure.

Oui. So take the kind of poverty you are describing. Now add on top of that being discriminated against not only because of your poverty but also because of your gender or sexuality. Furthermore, there is some evidence that being discriminated against because of gender and sexuality also makes it more likely that someone is financially vulnerable.

You know that's false and yet you dare show your egoism by trying to show yourselves as the n1 victims on top of that. You should be ashamed of yourself. Truly.

Is 40k transphobic? I don't think so.

Can certain employees at GW be transphobic or accidentally use transphobic rhetoric? Very likely since GW has its HQ on terf-island.

 Blndmage wrote:
On the hunt for something similar

Have you thought about Esienkern Panzerjager?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Psychocouac wrote:
You know that's false and yet you dare show your egoism by trying to show yourselves as the n1 victims on top of that. You should be ashamed of yourself. Truly.

Sorry, seems we have had a communications breakdown somehow.

Psychocouac wrote:


Wow. The lack of empathy towards people that are not part of social group is astonishing.

Ironic, considering that you seem to be pretty obsessed with downplaying the issues trans people face.

I've seen children starving in the streets, begging for whatever I could give them. Beaten by a shop owner if they dare approached me near their business. One stealing a glass of alcohol and drink it like it was water cause it has nothing else to drink from. One receiving multiple machete hits in the legs for not running away faster. And I'm not talking about the one kidnapped in plain street to have their organs harvest for black market.

Wow a whole bunch of words to address nothing I said.

But you'll surely use that like an argument too? Lgtb+ members suffer that too right?

If they live in similar levels of poverty they in fact suffer it more often.

In an equal amount or worse for sure. You sure have it the worse in this world.

The only one playing misery Olympics is you my transphobic friend.

Some people should truly and objectively reflect on the luck they have to have "the problems" they are dealing with. Humble down a bit maybe.

I'm not trans my transphobic friend. I am well-aware of how lucky I am to live in America and to be cisgendered. You appear to be incapable of having any empathy for those who aren't and seem to think that trans people (and LGBT people in general, way to give up your game by adding even more groups you hate into the discussion tbh) only exist in wealthy nations.

Do you believe that LGBT people can't live in poverty? Can't live in poverty-stricken nations? Do you think trans women can't be sold into, say, sexual slavery in some of these nations? That this isn't a rather serious threat trans women in some of these nations face?

But keep on pretending that only rich trans people exist. It seems to be more comfortable for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Psychocouac wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

Psychocouac wrote:
Lgtb+ members suffer that too right? In an equal amount or worse for sure.

Oui. So take the kind of poverty you are describing. Now add on top of that being discriminated against not only because of your poverty but also because of your gender or sexuality. Furthermore, there is some evidence that being discriminated against because of gender and sexuality also makes it more likely that someone is financially vulnerable.

You know that's false and yet you dare show your egoism by trying to show yourselves as the n1 victims on top of that. You should be ashamed of yourself. Truly.

Deranged.

Also it's telling that you can't conceive of anyone talking about the issues trans people face without assuming the person talking about them is trans. Kind of shows you're projecting your own selfish mindset onto others tbh.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
Sorry, seems we have had a communications breakdown somehow.

Did you? I think he meant every word he said and understood everything we've said. He just really really really hates LGBT people it seems.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Isn't that basically the Sisters of Silence though? Both they and Custodes form the Talons of the Emperor, do they not?
I always considered SoS to be to Custodes what SoB are to Marines.

Naw man, lol.

SoS work with the Custodes but they aren't. Also a bit of a shame, would like them to have more of an identity beyond the bald chicks the Custodes have tag along to feth up psychic powers.

That is a pity. So much for "the Left Hand of the Emperor" I guess.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


If they live in similar levels of poverty they in fact suffer it more often.

People living in the level of poverty Psycho is describing do not have the luxury of worrying about pronouns. The idea that someone dying in the street is somehow more dying because they're gay is ludicrous and shows a worrying lack of empathy or understanding of what actual poverty looks like.

Tell you what, next time I'm back in my old address I'll be sure to ask what pronouns the homeless heroin addicts shooting up on the stairs outside my flat want me to report them to the police as. Once they're done trying to stab me for money I may not be carrying I'll let you know (if they haven't stolen my phone).

 Sim-Life wrote:
Tell you what, next time I'm back in my old address I'll be sure to ask what pronouns the homeless heroin addicts shooting up on the stairs outside my flat want me to report them to the police as. Once they're done trying to stab me for money I may not be carrying I'll let you know (if they haven't stolen my phone).

You know what's a frequent cause of homelessness and drug addiction? Getting disowned by your parents for being LGBT and having no support network available. But just keep trying to compete in the misery olympics.

 Manchu wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:
On the hunt for something similar

Have you thought about Esienkern Panzerjager?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Psychocouac wrote:
You know that's false and yet you dare show your egoism by trying to show yourselves as the n1 victims on top of that. You should be ashamed of yourself. Truly.

Sorry, seems we have had a communications breakdown somehow.

Hmm, it's the gold, red cape and plume. Like the colours work well!
Could always go dark...hmmm

Is there another section of the focus that would be a better place to talk SoS?

There are trans people in extremely impoverished parts of the world, too. Being trans is not something that only exists in places where GDP is above a certain threshold. Is this not widely known?

I agree, trans people in those places don’t have the luxury of, for example, arguing online about preferred pronouns. But I would not be surprised if they endured an even tougher set of problems than cis people in the same areas.

CadianSgtBob wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
Tell you what, next time I'm back in my old address I'll be sure to ask what pronouns the homeless heroin addicts shooting up on the stairs outside my flat want me to report them to the police as. Once they're done trying to stab me for money I may not be carrying I'll let you know (if they haven't stolen my phone).

You know what's a frequent cause of homelessness and drug addiction? Getting disowned by your parents for being LGBT and having no support network available. But just keep trying to compete in the misery olympics.

Amazing post. Both in its irony and levels of ignorance.

 Sim-Life wrote:


People living in the level of poverty Psycho is describing do not have the luxury of worrying about pronouns. The idea that someone dying in the street is somehow more dying because they're gay is ludicrous and shows a worrying lack of empathy or understanding of what actual poverty looks like.

Tell you what, next time I'm back in my old address I'll be sure to ask what pronouns the homeless heroin addicts shooting up on the stairs outside my flat want me to report them to the police as. Once they're done trying to stab me for money I may not be carrying I'll let you know (if they haven't stolen my phone).

Whatever you have to tell yourself to justify your bigotry my friend.

 Sim-Life wrote:

CadianSgtBob wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
Tell you what, next time I'm back in my old address I'll be sure to ask what pronouns the homeless heroin addicts shooting up on the stairs outside my flat want me to report them to the police as. Once they're done trying to stab me for money I may not be carrying I'll let you know (if they haven't stolen my phone).

You know what's a frequent cause of homelessness and drug addiction? Getting disowned by your parents for being LGBT and having no support network available. But just keep trying to compete in the misery olympics.

Amazing post. Both in its irony and levels of ignorance.

Lolwut. Just keep trying, that gold medal will soon be yours!

Is this not one of those places where we can just say "if you don't like the lore behind the game, if it offends you so badly, go play something else?"

WH40K is not "transphobic."

 Blndmage wrote:
Is there another section of the focus that would be a better place to talk SoS?

For alternative SOS model suggestions? Feel free to start a new thread here in 40k General Discussion. I think painting could go a long way with those Panzerjagers but you’d still need to find some better heads, although for your Wakanda project that would be a given.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:


People living in the level of poverty Psycho is describing do not have the luxury of worrying about pronouns. The idea that someone dying in the street is somehow more dying because they're gay is ludicrous and shows a worrying lack of empathy or understanding of what actual poverty looks like.

Tell you what, next time I'm back in my old address I'll be sure to ask what pronouns the homeless heroin addicts shooting up on the stairs outside my flat want me to report them to the police as. Once they're done trying to stab me for money I may not be carrying I'll let you know (if they haven't stolen my phone).

Whatever you have to tell yourself to justify your bigotry my friend.

I'm surprised that you decided to call me a bigot over saying "people dying in the street have bigger concerns than their pronouns" but not some things other people have posted in this thread. I don't even really feel that its a particularly bigoted statement.

 Sim-Life wrote:

I'm surprised that you decided to call.me a bigot over saying "people dying in the street have bigger concerns than their pronouns" but not some things other people have posted in this thread.

Feel free to point them out my bigoted and dismissive friend and I shall ascertain whether the poster is a bigot on a case by case basis.

Arguably, every Space Marine is trans.

Not on the spectrum of gender, but as a biologically enhanced transhuman cyborg. They have organs the rest of humanity does not, they have cybernetic implants that allow them to more effectively integrate with machines, they receive psycho-indoctrination that shapes their view of the world. Typically, Marines are depicted as having strong jaws and facial features corresponding with those of males, and this is a feature their Imperial masters could control.

Not a huge leap to think the male facial features and lack of mammary glands are a consequence of the process of making them into a Space Marine, and not necessarily a feature the warrior possessed prior to their transformation. Doesn't mean they were male to begin with, but this idea does recognize the loss of one's individuality common to training elite military forces has been extended to the genetic / biological realm. Marines aren't volunteers who go back to their previous lives after their service, these are people who undergo to a process to transform their minds and bodies into a fighting machine. Considering the amount of engineering that takes place, I would expect near total design uniformity within the ranks extending all the way to the level of secondary gender / sexual characteristics.

From that standpoint, if mammary glands / oval shaped heads have tactical value, every soldier should have them. Given Astartes' prominence in the lore and the impact introducing these features could have in the real world, Games Workshop should do a better job and explain how these characteristics make Space Marines better suited to kill Xenos in the defense of Humanity.

In any case, the topic of this thread is pretty far removed from indigence as we are talking about extremely expensive luxury products.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Arguably, every Space Marine is trans.

Transhuman, assuredly.

Exactly my point and what a lot of people have also suggested, not just in this forum. You can still keep all the "brother marine" yadda yadda but it doesn't matter what genetic stock they come from. All the genetic enhancement shrivels everything into an androgynous transhuman individual. It fits with the lore and doesn't outwardly change their appearance or design. It's a faint change to the language to accommodate that.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:


People living in the level of poverty Psycho is describing do not have the luxury of worrying about pronouns. The idea that someone dying in the street is somehow more dying because they're gay is ludicrous and shows a worrying lack of empathy or understanding of what actual poverty looks like.

Tell you what, next time I'm back in my old address I'll be sure to ask what pronouns the homeless heroin addicts shooting up on the stairs outside my flat want me to report them to the police as. Once they're done trying to stab me for money I may not be carrying I'll let you know (if they haven't stolen my phone).

Whatever you have to tell yourself to justify your bigotry my friend.

I'm surprised that you decided to call me a bigot over saying "people dying in the street have bigger concerns than their pronouns" but not some things other people have posted in this thread. I don't even really feel that its a particularly bigoted statement.

Bigot, is a another word that gets thrown around too easily these days, and as a consequence is starting to lose meaning and impact.

A lot of this seems like it can be boiled down to black & white thinking, there is no room for nuance. Either people are 100% in agreement, or they are 100% opposed.

I'm at the age now where I'm starting to think 'maybe the Internet wasn't such a good idea after all'. All it seems to have done is create massive polarisation.

 Sim-Life wrote:


People living in the level of poverty Psycho is describing do not have the luxury of worrying about pronouns. The idea that someone dying in the street is somehow more dying because they're gay is ludicrous and shows a worrying lack of empathy or understanding of what actual poverty looks like.

That idea is quite realistic actually. In pretty much every underdeveloped countries or under dictatorships gay/trans people are persecuted for what they are. And by persecuted I mean killed. Or in the best case prevented from socially climbing, in order to stay at the bottom of society forever.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

I'm surprised that you decided to call.me a bigot over saying "people dying in the street have bigger concerns than their pronouns" but not some things other people have posted in this thread.

Feel free to point them out my bigoted and dismissive friend and I shall ascertain whether the poster is a bigot on a case by case basis.

So is everyone who disagrees with you a bigot?


You've gone through several pages trolling and accusing without actually shutting down anyone, in fact, several have even completely rebutted you despite your dismissals. Might be time to move on.



And before you type it: I'm not your fething friend. Nor is anyone else you've been patronizing in this thread.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


Ironic, considering that you seem to be pretty obsessed with downplaying the issues trans people face.

You say downgrading I say I'm being objective.

Wow a whole bunch of words to address nothing I said.

I don't have to. I'm just reacting to your behavior in this discussion.

The only one playing misery Olympics is you my transphobic friend.

Yet you are still saying that trans people have it worse. Seems like a a competition for you to me.

I'm not trans my transphobic friend.

Wasn't referring to you in particular. But that aside how it feels to call everybody transphobic when they don't have the same opinions as yours? Pretty easy isn't it? How should someone defend against that statement? "I have trans friends", "I read books about it"? It really do wonders during conversations. I'm always convinced by the people which are attacking others freely. What about being a little more respectful because that don't promote your point.

I am well-aware of how lucky I am to live in America and to be cisgendered. You appear to be incapable of having any empathy for those who aren't and seem to think that trans people (and LGBT people in general, way to give up your game by adding even more groups you hate into the discussion tbh) only exist in wealthy nations.

Do you believe that LGBT people can't live in poverty? Can't live in poverty-stricken nations? Do you think trans women can't be sold into, say, sexual slavery in some of these nations? That this isn't a rather serious threat trans women in some of these nations face?

But keep on pretending that only rich trans people exist. It seems to be more comfortable for you.

When you don't know if you will live to see tomorrow you don't have the luxury to ask yourself if you are trans or not.

Deranged.

Childish.

Also it's telling that you can't conceive of anyone talking about the issues trans people face without assuming the person talking about them is trans. Kind of shows you're projecting your own selfish mindset onto others tbh.

I was referring to the group. Not you in particular but you seem to have a really strong victim mindset.

Did you? I think he meant every word he said and understood everything we've said. He just really really really hates LGBT people it seems.

I don't, and after this conversation hopefully I won' t. But trust me on this, with your insufferable character it will require all my will.