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Toofast wrote:
We will have to wait and see after some events are held with the new rules.

This isn't 40K. The vast majority of Heresy events are narrative weekends with no reporting of results. The very idea of "Heresy Tournaments" is anathematic to the most of the community and laughed at.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Toofast wrote:
We will have to wait and see after some events are held with the new rules.

This isn't 40K. The vast majority of Heresy events are narrative weekends with no reporting of results. The very idea of "Heresy Tournaments" is anathematic to the most of the community and laughed at.

This is very much true, those guys that tried to post the tier list and bring in the competitive crowed of 40k to 30k got flamed hard for it.

My local crowd is pretty competitive and I have a feeling there will be some optimized lists for me to play against.

Just started looking at some Legion special units.

Blood Angels Dawnbreaker Cohort get 10 Artificer Armour, (buffed) Power Spears, and Jump Packs for 275 points.
Ultramarines Locutarus Storm Squad is, likewise, 275 points for Artificer Armour, (buffed) Power Swords, and Jump Packs.

Night Lords Raptor Squads and Sons of Horus Reaver Aggressor Squads pay ~415 points for 10 Power Armour, (normal) Power Weapons, and Jump packs.

Incredible balancing happening here.

Tbf Night raptors have more special rules no?

I couldn't tell you the special rules on Dawnbreaker Cohort beyond Furious Charge but Raptors do have Sudden Strike and Bloody Murder.

I don't think +1I and +1A on the charge is worth over 100 points and worse armor, though.

Maybe, just maybe, you should take a look at both profiles in full before making comparisons. Just my two pennies.

Okay. I have looked at the Locutarus Storm Squad (free PDF), Night Lords, and Sons of Horus profiles in full. Let's ignore Dawnbreaker Cohorts, because, sure, they might have some special rule that makes them actually Extremely Terrible, at 275 points for 10 models with improved power weapons, artificier armor, and jump packs. Maybe they are unable to charge, or they lose a model at the end of every turn. Perhaps Dawnbreaker Cohorts are fine, so I'll wait on that comparison until I can borrow a loyalist book from somebody and see what extra special rules they have that make them so much less valuable despite far better equipment.

Not seeing any reason why Locutarus Storm Squad should be 275 points and Raptors and Reaver Aggressors should be 400+ with worse armor and weapons.

 Rihgu wrote:
Okay. I have looked at the Locutarus Storm Squad (free PDF), Night Lords, and Sons of Horus profiles in full. Let's ignore Dawnbreaker Cohorts, because, sure, they might have some special rule that makes them actually Extremely Terrible, at 275 points for 10 models with improved power weapons, artificier armor, and jump packs. Maybe they are unable to charge, or they lose a model at the end of every turn. Perhaps Dawnbreaker Cohorts are fine, so I'll wait on that comparison until I can borrow a loyalist book from somebody and see what extra special rules they have that make them so much less valuable despite far better equipment.

Not seeing any reason why Locutarus Storm Squad should be 275 points and Raptors and Reaver Aggressors should be 400+ with worse armor and weapons.

You are forgetting Nighvision for night fighting, which you can force into any game for 2 turns guaranteed as a nightlord player and makes the unit play normal for those 2 turns and have a 50% chance on the 3rd still being nightfighting.
You forgot fear.
I +1 always makes you strike before the enemy in most cases.

 Rihgu wrote:
Okay. I have looked at the Locutarus Storm Squad (free PDF), Night Lords, and Sons of Horus profiles in full. Let's ignore Dawnbreaker Cohorts, because, sure, they might have some special rule that makes them actually Extremely Terrible, at 275 points for 10 models with improved power weapons, artificier armor, and jump packs. Maybe they are unable to charge, or they lose a model at the end of every turn. Perhaps Dawnbreaker Cohorts are fine, so I'll wait on that comparison until I can borrow a loyalist book from somebody and see what extra special rules they have that make them so much less valuable despite far better equipment.

Not seeing any reason why Locutarus Storm Squad should be 275 points and Raptors and Reaver Aggressors should be 400+ with worse armor and weapons.

The PDF balance is very bad. There's your reason.
Also as for SR the Raptors have:
Relentless, Sudden Strike (1) (+1 Init on the Charge), Bloody Murder (+1 to Charge against Pinned or Falling Back units and +1 Attack if successful), Fear (1), and Night Vision (useful considering NL force Night Fighting for at least one turn, sometimes two).
The Locutarus have:
Chosen Warriors and The Blade of Wisdom (+1 to hit on the Charge if the target has been shot by another unit).

 Gert wrote:

 Rihgu wrote:
Okay. I have looked at the Locutarus Storm Squad (free PDF), Night Lords, and Sons of Horus profiles in full. Let's ignore Dawnbreaker Cohorts, because, sure, they might have some special rule that makes them actually Extremely Terrible, at 275 points for 10 models with improved power weapons, artificier armor, and jump packs. Maybe they are unable to charge, or they lose a model at the end of every turn. Perhaps Dawnbreaker Cohorts are fine, so I'll wait on that comparison until I can borrow a loyalist book from somebody and see what extra special rules they have that make them so much less valuable despite far better equipment.

Not seeing any reason why Locutarus Storm Squad should be 275 points and Raptors and Reaver Aggressors should be 400+ with worse armor and weapons.

The PDF balance is very bad. There's your reason.

TBH the PDF needs to be redone.
Its not up to par with what it should be.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Rihgu wrote:
Okay. I have looked at the Locutarus Storm Squad (free PDF), Night Lords, and Sons of Horus profiles in full. Let's ignore Dawnbreaker Cohorts, because, sure, they might have some special rule that makes them actually Extremely Terrible, at 275 points for 10 models with improved power weapons, artificier armor, and jump packs. Maybe they are unable to charge, or they lose a model at the end of every turn. Perhaps Dawnbreaker Cohorts are fine, so I'll wait on that comparison until I can borrow a loyalist book from somebody and see what extra special rules they have that make them so much less valuable despite far better equipment.

Not seeing any reason why Locutarus Storm Squad should be 275 points and Raptors and Reaver Aggressors should be 400+ with worse armor and weapons.

You are forgetting Nighvision for night fighting, which you can force into any game for 2 turns guaranteed as a nightlord player and makes the unit play normal for those 2 turns and have a 50% chance on the 3rd still being nightfighting.
You forgot fear.
I +1 always makes you strike before the enemy.

In your opinion are those collections of rules worth over 100 points and having worse armor on top of the points premium?

Let's say that they are.

Aggressor Reavers pay the same premium and get Counter Attack(1) and Precision Strikes(6+), but only get Ld8 in addition to having at most 1 2+ armored model and the points premium. Is that a fair trade? They also lose Duelist's Edge and their power swords rend on 6+ instead of 5+ compared to Locutarus. It's reasonable to pay that much additional cost for the benefits Reavers have over Locutarus (if they are indeed benefits)?

 Rihgu wrote:
Okay. I have looked at the Locutarus Storm Squad (free PDF), Night Lords, and Sons of Horus profiles in full. Let's ignore Dawnbreaker Cohorts, because, sure, they might have some special rule that makes them actually Extremely Terrible, at 275 points for 10 models with improved power weapons, artificier armor, and jump packs. Maybe they are unable to charge, or they lose a model at the end of every turn. Perhaps Dawnbreaker Cohorts are fine, so I'll wait on that comparison until I can borrow a loyalist book from somebody and see what extra special rules they have that make them so much less valuable despite far better equipment.

Not seeing any reason why Locutarus Storm Squad should be 275 points and Raptors and Reaver Aggressors should be 400+ with worse armor and weapons.

IF you really want a headscratcher, compare the support squads Volkit Calvier, with the HEAVY support squads volkite calverin, and answer me why the better subtype gets the better gun for half the price



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rihgu wrote:


In your opinion are those collections of rules worth over 100 points and having worse armor on top of the points premium?

Night raptors, for certain, considering they actually synergise really well with the legion.
for the reavers i can't say.

Let's say that they are.

Aggressor Reavers pay the same premium and get Counter Attack(1) and Precision Strikes(6+), but only get Ld8 in addition to having at most 1 2+ armored model and the points premium. Is that a fair trade? They also lose Duelist's Edge and their power swords rend on 6+ instead of 5+ compared to Locutarus. It's reasonable to pay that much additional cost for the benefits Reavers have over Locutarus (if they are indeed benefits)?

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Rihgu wrote:
Okay. I have looked at the Locutarus Storm Squad (free PDF), Night Lords, and Sons of Horus profiles in full. Let's ignore Dawnbreaker Cohorts, because, sure, they might have some special rule that makes them actually Extremely Terrible, at 275 points for 10 models with improved power weapons, artificier armor, and jump packs. Maybe they are unable to charge, or they lose a model at the end of every turn. Perhaps Dawnbreaker Cohorts are fine, so I'll wait on that comparison until I can borrow a loyalist book from somebody and see what extra special rules they have that make them so much less valuable despite far better equipment.

Not seeing any reason why Locutarus Storm Squad should be 275 points and Raptors and Reaver Aggressors should be 400+ with worse armor and weapons.

You are forgetting Nighvision for night fighting, which you can force into any game for 2 turns guaranteed as a nightlord player and makes the unit play normal for those 2 turns and have a 50% chance on the 3rd still being nightfighting.
You forgot fear.
I +1 always makes you strike before the enemy in most cases.

Are all Night Lords units supposed to be evaluated assuming that we'll be using Terror Assault every game? Are we allowed to field other RoWs in order to use units not allowed in Terror Assault, like our LoWs? Or just for varieties sake? Do the Twilight Marines not have any similar RoWs that synergise with their rules?

And yes I5 is very good. But you're missing that the BA unit has it as well. Those spears that they come with are Reach(1), which makes them I5. And their optional weapons are Sudden Strike(1), which does the same. And even with those they're still cheaper than a 10 man Night Raptors Squad with "normal" power weapons (which is 360 points, btw, not 415). They're even 10 points cheaper if you take all of the optional weapons and give the entire squad melta bombs, which aren't even available to Night Raptors.

The BA unit is obviously underpriced. Compare them to a basic Tartaros Squad. They're the same price, both for the base squad and additional bodies. The BA unit has greater mobility, higher weapon skill, leadership, better weapons, and access to deep strike. The only thing that the Tartaros can hang their hats on is their 5++, which doesn't make up the difference, IMHO. I don't think that Night Raptors are overpriced, but the BA unit is definitely underpriced.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Rihgu wrote:
Okay. I have looked at the Locutarus Storm Squad (free PDF), Night Lords, and Sons of Horus profiles in full. Let's ignore Dawnbreaker Cohorts, because, sure, they might have some special rule that makes them actually Extremely Terrible, at 275 points for 10 models with improved power weapons, artificier armor, and jump packs. Maybe they are unable to charge, or they lose a model at the end of every turn. Perhaps Dawnbreaker Cohorts are fine, so I'll wait on that comparison until I can borrow a loyalist book from somebody and see what extra special rules they have that make them so much less valuable despite far better equipment.

Not seeing any reason why Locutarus Storm Squad should be 275 points and Raptors and Reaver Aggressors should be 400+ with worse armor and weapons.

You are forgetting Nighvision for night fighting, which you can force into any game for 2 turns guaranteed as a nightlord player and makes the unit play normal for those 2 turns and have a 50% chance on the 3rd still being nightfighting.
You forgot fear.
I +1 always makes you strike before the enemy in most cases.

Are all Night Lords units supposed to be evaluated assuming that we'll be using Terror Assault every game? Are we allowed to field other RoWs in order to use units not allowed in Terror Assault, like our LoWs? Or just for varieties sake? Do the Twilight Marines not have any similar RoWs that synergise with their rules?

And yes I5 is very good. But you're missing that the BA unit has it as well. Those spears that they come with are Reach(1), which makes them I5. And their optional weapons are Sudden Strike(1), which does the same. And even with those they're still cheaper than a 10 man Night Raptors Squad with "normal" power weapons (which is 360 points, btw, not 415). They're even 10 points cheaper if you take all of the optional weapons and give the entire squad melta bombs, which aren't even available to Night Raptors.

The BA unit is obviously underpriced. Compare them to a basic Tartaros Squad. They're the same price, both for the base squad and additional bodies. The BA unit has greater mobility, higher weapon skill, leadership, better weapons, and access to deep strike. The only thing that the Tartaros can hang their hats on is their 5++, which doesn't make up the difference, IMHO. I don't think that Night Raptors are overpriced, but the BA unit is definitely underpriced.

I think the core problem is the "Situational " ability that is nightvision in the evaluation. NVM the fact of the "legion trait of NL" which will have impacted the pricing on the unit. Further there is the case that an army should be designed around the situation, if you intend to bring Night raptors it should also be a natural choice that you use the corresponding Rite of war no? Just as you wouldn't buy Nightvision i assume if you don't intend to bring the RoW?

Granted the BA squad is indeed ludicrously cheap. I do think though that there is a diffrent role at play here between the units, as in one is there to break the morale and trigger the legion ability as a wholesale, whilest the other is there to be a mere "hammer" and requires an other form of support to tie something down enough.

But maybee i am wrong, i don't have enough experience yet.

NVM the fact of the "legion trait of NL" which will have impacted the pricing on the unit

I hope not. It's very unintuitive that legion specific units will pay prices for legion traits but tactical marines won't.

 Rihgu wrote:

NVM the fact of the "legion trait of NL" which will have impacted the pricing on the unit

I hope not. It's very unintuitive that legion specific units will pay prices for legion traits but tactical marines won't.

Well technically you aren't paying for the trait, but the special abilities you can often buy for a legion interacting with the trait, hence Fear(x debuff to enemy morale) synergising with Nightfighting(-1 ld and limited LoS to 24") and with Nightvision (ignore all negatives of Nightfighting), the first and the last being baseline baked into Night raptors, then interact with the NL trait .

You can buy f.e. Fear and Nighvision for all squads in your army as NL.
Just as you can buy Power daggers for all AL charachters.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Rihgu wrote:
Okay. I have looked at the Locutarus Storm Squad (free PDF), Night Lords, and Sons of Horus profiles in full. Let's ignore Dawnbreaker Cohorts, because, sure, they might have some special rule that makes them actually Extremely Terrible, at 275 points for 10 models with improved power weapons, artificier armor, and jump packs. Maybe they are unable to charge, or they lose a model at the end of every turn. Perhaps Dawnbreaker Cohorts are fine, so I'll wait on that comparison until I can borrow a loyalist book from somebody and see what extra special rules they have that make them so much less valuable despite far better equipment.

Not seeing any reason why Locutarus Storm Squad should be 275 points and Raptors and Reaver Aggressors should be 400+ with worse armor and weapons.

You are forgetting Nighvision for night fighting, which you can force into any game for 2 turns guaranteed as a nightlord player and makes the unit play normal for those 2 turns and have a 50% chance on the 3rd still being nightfighting.
You forgot fear.
I +1 always makes you strike before the enemy in most cases.

Are all Night Lords units supposed to be evaluated assuming that we'll be using Terror Assault every game? Are we allowed to field other RoWs in order to use units not allowed in Terror Assault, like our LoWs? Or just for varieties sake? Do the Twilight Marines not have any similar RoWs that synergise with their rules?

And yes I5 is very good. But you're missing that the BA unit has it as well. Those spears that they come with are Reach(1), which makes them I5. And their optional weapons are Sudden Strike(1), which does the same. And even with those they're still cheaper than a 10 man Night Raptors Squad with "normal" power weapons (which is 360 points, btw, not 415). They're even 10 points cheaper if you take all of the optional weapons and give the entire squad melta bombs, which aren't even available to Night Raptors.

The BA unit is obviously underpriced. Compare them to a basic Tartaros Squad. They're the same price, both for the base squad and additional bodies. The BA unit has greater mobility, higher weapon skill, leadership, better weapons, and access to deep strike. The only thing that the Tartaros can hang their hats on is their 5++, which doesn't make up the difference, IMHO. I don't think that Night Raptors are overpriced, but the BA unit is definitely underpriced.

o

I think the core problem is the "Situational " ability that is nightvision in the evaluation. NVM the fact of the "legion trait of NL" which will have impacted the pricing on the unit. Further there is the case that an army should be designed around the situation, if you intend to bring Night raptors it should also be a natural choice that you use the corresponding Rite of war no? Just as you wouldn't buy Nightvision i assume if you don't intend to bring the RoW?

Granted the BA squad is indeed ludicrously cheap. I do think though that there is a diffrent role at play here between the units, as in one is there to break the morale and trigger the legion ability as a wholesale, whilest the other is there to be a mere "hammer" and requires an other form of support to tie something down enough.

But maybee i am wrong, i don't have enough experience yet.

Actually, yes, I would. Every mission in the BRB bar War of Lies allows Night Fighting, which has an 83% chance of happening on turn 1 if you request it (which you are always allowed to do in Missions that feature Night Fighting), and a 50% chance for it to continue in turn 2. That's too good of a chance to pass up for an army that benefits from Night Fighting as much as Night Lords. And your forgetting that Night Vision also ignores Shrouded, which is good even without Night Fighting. And you're missing that Night Raptors are primarily a melee hammer, and thus mostly only benefit from ignoring the -1Ld part of Night Fighting. Preysight is far more useful on ranged units. Fear is far more of a useful tool for Night Raptors. But that's something that Night Lords will definitely be taking on everything that can have it, Night Fighting or not.

And as I said, Night Raptors are a melee "hammer" unit, the same as the BA unit. The units that will actually kick the Legion ability into high gear is anything and everything that can induce Pinning, which is what even the Night Raptors will want before charging in.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Gert wrote:

 Rihgu wrote:
Okay. I have looked at the Locutarus Storm Squad (free PDF), Night Lords, and Sons of Horus profiles in full. Let's ignore Dawnbreaker Cohorts, because, sure, they might have some special rule that makes them actually Extremely Terrible, at 275 points for 10 models with improved power weapons, artificier armor, and jump packs. Maybe they are unable to charge, or they lose a model at the end of every turn. Perhaps Dawnbreaker Cohorts are fine, so I'll wait on that comparison until I can borrow a loyalist book from somebody and see what extra special rules they have that make them so much less valuable despite far better equipment.

Not seeing any reason why Locutarus Storm Squad should be 275 points and Raptors and Reaver Aggressors should be 400+ with worse armor and weapons.

The PDF balance is very bad. There's your reason.

TBH the PDF needs to be redone.
Its not up to par with what it should be.

Oh that PDF makes no sense, a falchion is like 650 points
A shadow sword is 850