Was the Chaos Space Marines Codex a bona fide success for GW?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**ccs**

Not Online!!! wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:

Until next edition, where they will be so disfunctional that nobody will accept them, because legends is just a dishonest squating on time. Sincerly former R&H player

well my lord on steed of slaanesh is still legal even if it's been in legends since 8th. Even if my lord on jumppack gets squatted, i'll keep playing him anyway, feth GW's dumbass decisions.

Sure, however at some point People will also, especially in not close knit groups decide to feth you and your legends models

That's fine, that's one of the ways you determine who's worth playing with & who's not. Especially in not-close-knit-groups.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gene St. Ealer wrote:
That legends update is insulting. They fixed Lord weapons and jump pack options, but Chosen and Terminators are still borked and they didn't add Mutilators (and I'm sure there's more that's still screwed up besides those things). Feth me GW, do you think you never sold Mutilators?!?

Just always the absolute bare fething minimum to mollify the loudest complaints. What a load of crap.

I wonder when GW will finally take away Space marine bike HQ and Jumppack HQ, clearly some of them aren't in production anymore and they could provide an unfair advntage...
Oh wait, that's not how this works.

It's mindboggling and i hope GW will get gak on for this, but then again the community dind't give to gaks when three whole factions got Legended, watch the community at large being A O K with this aswell

As an original Squat player, NO, I'm not ok with your army being dropped. But at least you do have Legends rules for it. Where's my Squats? Gone for 24 years.
Did you know back in 4e they had a WD article with rules for making your own Ab-Humans? Hey, guess what the only combo of stats you couldn't make happened to be?

Spoiler:

But you want people to give GW gak because now instead of no one getting to use their jump pack chaos lords, some people who don't play with

do? ???
You're mad you don't get to use your R&H or whatever other Legends pieces you own? Then be upset with those you choose to play with who tell you no. Get pissed off at those tourneys you attend that tell you no.

**Racerguy180**

ccs wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:

Until next edition, where they will be so disfunctional that nobody will accept them, because legends is just a dishonest squating on time. Sincerly former R&H player

well my lord on steed of slaanesh is still legal even if it's been in legends since 8th. Even if my lord on jumppack gets squatted, i'll keep playing him anyway, feth GW's dumbass decisions.

Sure, however at some point People will also, especially in not close knit groups decide to feth you and your legends models

That's fine, that's one of the ways you determine who's worth playing with & who's not. Especially in not-close-knit-groups.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gene St. Ealer wrote:
That legends update is insulting. They fixed Lord weapons and jump pack options, but Chosen and Terminators are still borked and they didn't add Mutilators (and I'm sure there's more that's still screwed up besides those things). Feth me GW, do you think you never sold Mutilators?!?

Just always the absolute bare fething minimum to mollify the loudest complaints. What a load of crap.

I wonder when GW will finally take away Space marine bike HQ and Jumppack HQ, clearly some of them aren't in production anymore and they could provide an unfair advntage...
Oh wait, that's not how this works.

It's mindboggling and i hope GW will get gak on for this, but then again the community dind't give to gaks when three whole factions got Legended, watch the community at large being A O K with this aswell

As an original Squat player, NO, I'm not ok with your army being dropped. But at least you do have Legends rules for it. Where's my Squats? Gone for 24 years.
Did you know back in 4e they had a WD article with rules for making your own Ab-Humans? Hey, guess what the only combo of stats you couldn't make happened to be?

Spoiler:

That's right, the typical Squat profile.

But you want people to give GW gak because now instead of no one getting to use their jump pack chaos lords, some people who don't play with do? ???
You're mad you don't get to use your R&H or whatever other Legends pieces you own? [/b]Then be upset with those you choose to play with who tell you no. Get pissed off at those tourneys you attend that tell you no.

[u] yeah, it's almost like a litmus test for donkey-caves...

right? Complain to those that can do something about it. Or, controversial thought, DONT PAY THEM(tourney, gw, whomever) MONEY FOR SOMETHING THAT HAS LITTLE TO NO VALUE FOR YOU.

**Not Online!!!**

ccs wrote:

As an original Squat player, NO, I'm not ok with your army being dropped. But at least you do have Legends rules for it. Where's my Squats? Gone for 24 years.
Did you know back in 4e they had a WD article with rules for making your own Ab-Humans? Hey, guess what the only combo of stats you couldn't make happened to be?

Spoiler:

That's right, the typical Squat profile.

But you want people to give GW gak because now instead of no one getting to use their jump pack chaos lords, some people who don't play with do? ???
You're mad you don't get to use your R&H or whatever other Legends pieces you own? Then be upset with those you choose to play with who tell you no. Get pissed off at those tourneys you attend that tell you no.

Yes, i am going to blame the multi-billion dollar company that actually owns the IP before the players, which rightfully in some cases point to legends as dysfunctional and for brevitys sake want to avoid them. Same for players of those armies, and yes i can field legends because i got a group, but frankly i don't want too wuth the legends ruleset, because it's just that disfunctional that there is borderline no way to make the game fun.
Frankly there's an easy solution going back some editions which we did and do on occaision.
But that is not a solution of all the owners of such armies.

**EviscerationPlague**

Jidmah wrote:
Gert wrote:
"Those units aren't invalid you just have to buy three other Codexes. I am very smart".
Without resorting to piracy, those units are going to be invalid for anyone who doesn't have money to drop on 2 more Codexes and a WD supplement that will be replaced by another Codex. So yeah, pretty invalid IMO.

Boy, do I wish that my ork units would get invalidated in the same way as your cult troops are.

There are plenty of solutions which don't involve copyright infringements, but those don't lend themselves well to hyperbole.

Okay, name the plenty of solutions.

**Dudeface**

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Gert wrote:
"Those units aren't invalid you just have to buy three other Codexes. I am very smart".
Without resorting to piracy, those units are going to be invalid for anyone who doesn't have money to drop on 2 more Codexes and a WD supplement that will be replaced by another Codex. So yeah, pretty invalid IMO.

Boy, do I wish that my ork units would get invalidated in the same way as your cult troops are.

There are plenty of solutions which don't involve copyright infringements, but those don't lend themselves well to hyperbole.

Okay, name the plenty of solutions.

1. Buy them
2. Communal/store copies
3. Borrow from friend
4. Counts as to nearest compatible unit

I'm not going to lie, that's basically 3 options and 2 of them are maybe the same thing.

There's ways around it but they're not great.

Honestly it's a god awful crossover point in the games history, they're evidently on the cusp of having god based books and "everyone else" and I think they went hard on the "everyone else" book wayyyy too soon. I fully understand why they've done it and I can empathise with the devs on this one, but without a soft lead time or run up, it's always going to be bad. The only mitigation they could do is "this edition when we tackle chaos marines we will be be separating out cult units for xy&z, here's a pdf until such time.

**BrianDavion**

PenitentJake wrote:
Karol wrote:
Okey, but what happens durning the talk.
Guy A I have 20 rubrics, 10 tzangors and a magnus.
Guy B I don't want you to use the magnus, because it makes you win.
Guy A what am I suppose to do then without magnus I don't have a legal force
etc etc

The whole talk thing works only works for people who both own and carry multiple thousands of points in multiple armies. That is an expiriance a 30+ year old may have, but not a teen. Unless they are using their dads or older brothers armies.

So simple:

If I take Magnus out, you take out the same number of points.

<DONE>

Note: You may have to pull a rubric out of the squad to use as a Lord if you only brought 1 HQ.

or just not use any HQs and agree by mutural consent to treat the army as still being battle forged. Rules in games are ultimately simply suggestions, it's EXPECTED for people to occasionally house rule things if it leads to a better more entertaining game

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
When you play at the store, the option to "proxy" in w40k is maybe a thing if you play your first 2-3 games. If 2-3 months down the roads, you try the same the store owner will just not let you play, probably giving you a fair number of warrning before that.

On top of that it is heck of confusing. My army is bad aka I like and use models which are bad for my faction. Could I take my dudes call each termintors either a strike or a interceptors and both my dreads NDKs? FOr 2 editions? People would just say that I either have to rebuy the army, or they won't play me.

And yeah there maybe differences, you are liked at the store, have many friends. One of the veterans or store owners is your uncle, dad, brother etc But if you are a fresh new player who starts the game mid edition or at the end, like now, there is no huge 20+ people wave of other new people to play against. People are streamlined in to a way of playing and will expect you to get proficient at it in a resonable amount of time.

As the "get models" things goes for some people this can be an edition of collecting a specific army, only for GW to nerf it when the new edition starts. Not many people who buy their armies are willing to do that. Unless again, they have income which makes a cost of a w40k or AoS non impactful.
Try explaining to your parent, who makes 600$, why you need 1000$ for plastic soldiers in a span of 6-9 months, assuming a power faction picked and not something that dips in 2-3 months, And why you will need another 1000$, in 2-3 years to update or switch the army, if it gets too unfun to play with. Confusion is the best thing you could expect, followed by an assumption you have high fever or something.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Frankly the fetish of GW for overpriced charachter centerpieces like Magnus is anyway an unhealthy way to start any army...

Try playing GK without 4, 5 at the start of 9th ed codex run. Or DE/Harlis without their opent top transports and tanks etc.

so your local player base aren't just colossal donkey-caves but so is your local store owner?

honestly at this poiint Karol I;m beginning to wonder if you've actually ENCOUNTERED this stuff or are just making up worst case scenerios in your head because you have so little faith in other people being decent

**Insectum7**

BrianDavion wrote:

honestly at this poiint Karol I;m beginning to wonder if you've actually ENCOUNTERED this stuff or are just making up worst case scenerios in your head because you have so little faith in other people being decent

If you've never experienced a real cabal of a**holes it might sound far fetched. Unfortunately there are a lot of them out there and some of them wield power.

**PenitentJake**

dominuschao wrote:

It panders to the competitive community at the expense of everyone else.

I don't disagree with your post as a whole, and I'm not trying to invalidate your point of view. But given that this is the fist dex of the 9th edition to content bespoke Crusade content for every subfaction in the book, I can't get behind this statement.

**CadianSgtBob**

ccs wrote:
But you want people to give GW gak because now instead of no one getting to use their jump pack chaos lords, some people who don't play with do? ???
You're mad you don't get to use your R&H or whatever other Legends pieces you own? Then be upset with those you choose to play with who tell you no. Get pissed off at those tourneys you attend that tell you no.

No, get mad at GW for writing error-filled garbage for the legends rules and never bothering to update them. People and events that ban legends rules do so because of the incredibly poor quality of those rules, if they weren't so completely broken they'd see a lot more use.

**VladimirHerzog**

CadianSgtBob wrote:
ccs wrote:
But you want people to give GW gak because now instead of no one getting to use their jump pack chaos lords, some people who don't play with do? ???
You're mad you don't get to use your R&H or whatever other Legends pieces you own? Then be upset with those you choose to play with who tell you no. Get pissed off at those tourneys you attend that tell you no.

No, get mad at GW for writing error-filled garbage for the legends rules and never bothering to update them. People and events that ban legends rules do so because of the incredibly poor quality of those rules, if they weren't so completely broken they'd see a lot more use.

???

What is broken (in a strong way) in legends? Most of the stuff in there is underpowered so wouldnt break anything

**Insectum7**

VladimirHerzog wrote:
CadianSgtBob wrote:
ccs wrote:
But you want people to give GW gak because now instead of no one getting to use their jump pack chaos lords, some people who don't play with do? ???
You're mad you don't get to use your R&H or whatever other Legends pieces you own? Then be upset with those you choose to play with who tell you no. Get pissed off at those tourneys you attend that tell you no.

No, get mad at GW for writing error-filled garbage for the legends rules and never bothering to update them. People and events that ban legends rules do so because of the incredibly poor quality of those rules, if they weren't so completely broken they'd see a lot more use.

???

What is broken (in a strong way) in legends? Most of the stuff in there is underpowered so wouldnt break anything

Some of the point values are crazy, for one. Yes it's therefore underpowered, but it speaks to the lack of attention/care of legends. I think there are some odd rules interactions too because of outdated datasheets, but the details I can't recall.

**Dudeface**

VladimirHerzog wrote:
CadianSgtBob wrote:
ccs wrote:
But you want people to give GW gak because now instead of no one getting to use their jump pack chaos lords, some people who don't play with do? ???
You're mad you don't get to use your R&H or whatever other Legends pieces you own? Then be upset with those you choose to play with who tell you no. Get pissed off at those tourneys you attend that tell you no.

No, get mad at GW for writing error-filled garbage for the legends rules and never bothering to update them. People and events that ban legends rules do so because of the incredibly poor quality of those rules, if they weren't so completely broken they'd see a lot more use.

???

What is broken (in a strong way) in legends? Most of the stuff in there is underpowered so wouldnt break anything

Legends units being broken is an urban myth, if they're "broken" it's because they're either woefully poor or missing some keywords that are needed to function, it seemingly never gives an op outcome that I know of.

**Daedalus81**

Dudeface wrote:
Legends units being broken is an urban myth, if they're "broken" it's because they're either woefully poor or missing some keywords that are needed to function, it seemingly never gives an op outcome that I know of.

There's a greater potential for things in legends to become broken as the sheets and keywords decay or if rare weapon loadouts suddenly become very good ( e.g. sonic dreadnought ). Still, the vast majority wouldn't be a problem.

**Blndmage**

We're more than happy to use Legends, as it at least gives us rules for our R&H player to use. It's not mind blowing or loaded with strats and combos, but the units have flavour and it's fun to play.

Honestly, speaking for myself, I could use the Core Rules, R&H Legends (and associated other rules), toss in Theaters of War (for different planets, etc being invaded by Chaos), and you could run so many different armies, with their own flavour, playstyle, and themes.

**CadianSgtBob**

VladimirHerzog wrote:
What is broken (in a strong way) in legends? Most of the stuff in there is underpowered so wouldnt break anything

Tau units that still have the old markerlight weapon profile, to give one obvious example. When I say "broken" I mean rules that literally do not function and can not be used without house ruling a solution, not just balance errors. Then there's all the assorted missing keywords, rules that technically work but do so in a very counter-intuitive way because they haven't been fixed, etc. For example, DKoK LRBTs can take sponson lascannons (a option that has never existed in previous rules) that count as a turret weapon (and can therefore fire twice) because of how GW formatted the list of options. It doesn't technically cause the game to break trying to handle the rule like the old markerlight profile but it's obviously stupid and isn't working as intended.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Blndmage wrote:
Honestly, speaking for myself, I could use the Core Rules, R&H Legends (and associated other rules), toss in Theaters of War (for different planets, etc being invaded by Chaos), and you could run so many different armies, with their own flavour, playstyle, and themes.

And you still only have what, half of the original R&H list? Unless you get the IG codex and IA:Compendium to fill in all the missing units?

(Plus needing other books to have the defending armies, at which point the Chaos invasion never wins because R&H is a joke list.)

**H.B.M.C.**

This Legends update still doesn't fix the core problems with the inconsistencies of the new Chaos 'Dex. It is a band-aid, and grody old used one at that.

Insectum7 wrote:
... and some of them wield power.

And knives!!!

**drbored**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
This Legends update still doesn't fix the core problems with the inconsistencies of the new Chaos 'Dex. It is a band-aid, and grody old used one at that.

Insectum7 wrote:
... and some of them wield power.
And knives!!!

Yep, it's just a way to make it seem like GW feels bad about invalidating people's old models. Does nothing to actually improve the situation.

Setting the modeling and options issues of the Codex aside, it sure does have a lot of rules. Depending on your army and sub-faction, many of those rules will hardly ever come up. There's a handful of strats that are very good and will be used very often, and many more that will never be used, or used rarely.

If "Being a 9th edition Codex" is considered a 'bona fide success', then yep, it sure does look like a 9th edition codex. Rules bloat, wonky stratagems, and a very clear power boost to the models they want to sell.

In terms of balance, being internally and externally balanced should be expected. I can deal with a little bit of codex creep, but the situation with Tyranids and Harlequins, and way early in 9th ed the Admech and Drukhari, were simply outlying failures. The fact that Chaos Knights and Chaos Marines finally feel 'right' is indeed a good thing, but the swinging of power and associated nerf bats to other codexes has really never been this wild or bad before.

And yes, I lived through 8 years of Imperial Guard Leafblower lists dominating the meta.

**dominuschao**

H.B.M.C. wrote:Be sure to write to GW about your decision and how they've invalidated so much of your army.

I encourage all Chaos players to do the same.

Once I've finished my runthrough of the book I'll be collecting my thoughts in a letter as well.

I have written 2 emails, one admittedly a rant and second a condensed review of my legion.

Dudeface wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
dominuschao wrote:

A Bonafide success it is not. It panders to the competitive community

Like hell it does. It isn't even that powerful!

So is the community only interested in easy win books or do they prefer something to be balanced and middle of the road?

I agree it doesn't seem to pander to anyone but don't give the competitive community the wrong image.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

dominuschao wrote:
I am very frustrated with this release enough that I returned the book. There's some really nice entries but overall they just don't outweigh what I lost. And now over 80 percent of my army is illegally modelled.

Is 80% of your army jump lords and Terminators with combi-Plas and/or dual lightning claws?

I could care less about easy win. My favorite book of all time is DE 6th edition. fething fantastic book. And honestly the cookies they added to the legends rules is enough to get me playing the book because my bros are cool. But its still a shitshow.

Lol sorta. I typically ran 9-10 plasma terminators, 2 jump characters one a second lord now invalid, terminator lord, 2x5 plasma chosen with option for dreadclaw or termite, 2x5 berzerkers with lightning claw champions, a heldrake and blob of cultists for the redeploy.. among other things. It might not be top tier but could really catch people out with potential for 60+ plasma and lots of deployment/redeployment options. Thats almost all gone for now. I include the heldrake because threatening long bomb charges is the only reason it made the cut.

And agreed. I was indeed speaking of GW choosing to take the balanced road to the extreme. The book leans into a few broken mechanics which will end up nerfed like "insert X codex" and then were lame and already linear. I see some pumpers around the web including this site and all I can think is these guys are on the payroll. Thats how its done nowdays.

Sim-Life wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
dominuschao wrote:

A Bonafide success it is not. It panders to the competitive community

Like hell it does. It isn't even that powerful!

I think he meant that it panders to the competitive side by being simplified and stripped of options so that it would be easier to balance, not that GW ever does anything to balance the game other than show intent to surgically balance then preform that surgery with a sledgehammer.

Exactly.

PenitentJake wrote:
dominuschao wrote:

It panders to the competitive community at the expense of everyone else.

I don't disagree with your post as a whole, and I'm not trying to invalidate your point of view. But given that this is the fist dex of the 9th edition to content bespoke Crusade content for every subfaction in the book, I can't get behind this statement.

thats fine opinions will vary. theres some real nice entries in the book I admit that. However they went too far with the rebalance. And as a former outsider who has watched CSM get the shaft every 3 years ish I'm not optimistic.

Edits- sorry I suck at dakka multi quotes.

**Jidmah**

Dudeface wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Gert wrote:
"Those units aren't invalid you just have to buy three other Codexes. I am very smart".
Without resorting to piracy, those units are going to be invalid for anyone who doesn't have money to drop on 2 more Codexes and a WD supplement that will be replaced by another Codex. So yeah, pretty invalid IMO.

Boy, do I wish that my ork units would get invalidated in the same way as your cult troops are.

There are plenty of solutions which don't involve copyright infringements, but those don't lend themselves well to hyperbole.

Okay, name the plenty of solutions.

1. Buy them
2. Communal/store copies
3. Borrow from friend
4. Counts as to nearest compatible unit

I'm not going to lie, that's basically 3 options and 2 of them are maybe the same thing.

There's ways around it but they're not great.

Borrow, codex, take a picture with your phone. If you hate technology, print it, put it in your book.
Pen&Paper
Copy machine
Create your own version of the datasheet
Get the app code from someone not using the app
Borrow codex when you need to bring the actual thing for an event

You know, the same things people have been doing for the last ten years or so when the rules for their units were no longer available because GW spread them across three white dwarfs, a FW book not available in your country and tattoo on Robbin Cruddance's hip.

**Dudeface**

Jidmah wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Gert wrote:
"Those units aren't invalid you just have to buy three other Codexes. I am very smart".
Without resorting to piracy, those units are going to be invalid for anyone who doesn't have money to drop on 2 more Codexes and a WD supplement that will be replaced by another Codex. So yeah, pretty invalid IMO.

Boy, do I wish that my ork units would get invalidated in the same way as your cult troops are.

There are plenty of solutions which don't involve copyright infringements, but those don't lend themselves well to hyperbole.

Okay, name the plenty of solutions.

1. Buy them
2. Communal/store copies
3. Borrow from friend
4. Counts as to nearest compatible unit

I'm not going to lie, that's basically 3 options and 2 of them are maybe the same thing.

There's ways around it but they're not great.

Borrow, codex, take a picture with your phone. If you hate technology, print it, put it in your book.
Pen&Paper
Copy machine
Create your own version of the datasheet
Get the app code from someone not using the app
Borrow codex when you need to bring the actual thing for an event

You know, the same things people have been doing for the last ten years or so when the rules for their units were no longer available because GW spread them across three white dwarfs, a FW book not available in your country and tattoo on Robbin Cruddance's hip.

Rewriting it, photocopying or creating your own in an exact likeness are all copyright infringement still.

**Racerguy180**

Doing so for profit is...

**Jidmah**

Dudeface wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:
CadianSgtBob wrote:
ccs wrote:
But you want people to give GW gak because now instead of no one getting to use their jump pack chaos lords, some people who don't play with do? ???
You're mad you don't get to use your R&H or whatever other Legends pieces you own? Then be upset with those you choose to play with who tell you no. Get pissed off at those tourneys you attend that tell you no.

No, get mad at GW for writing error-filled garbage for the legends rules and never bothering to update them. People and events that ban legends rules do so because of the incredibly poor quality of those rules, if they weren't so completely broken they'd see a lot more use.

???

What is broken (in a strong way) in legends? Most of the stuff in there is underpowered so wouldnt break anything

Legends units being broken is an urban myth, if they're "broken" it's because they're either woefully poor or missing some keywords that are needed to function, it seemingly never gives an op outcome that I know of.

People denying legends is also an urban myth, in every poll on that topic and whenever it is discussed in any community, people are fine with you bringing your old miniatures as WYSIWYG unless it's a competitive event.

But if you really want an example for units in legends which are "too good" - big meks on bikes and MA warbosses from legends are currently strictly better than any of their codex counter-parts because they didn't receive any of the ~~nerfs~~ balance improvements. 81 points for a 5++ KFF or SAG on bike with a free KMB added on top is nice, right?
There are also some wargear shenanigans like free killsaws on koptas and combi-skorchas for spannas, not to mention the option to equip a kopta with both a "bigbomm" and a "big bomb".

So there actually is quite a good case to be made for not using abandoned rules from last edition, which is the prime reason why I am not using legends for my models. It just doesn't feel right to gain an advantage over my opponent because of such things.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:
Rewriting it, photocopying or creating your own in an exact likeness are all copyright infringement still.

According to the UK's copyright act, you are allowed to create a single copy for personal uses - which is a lot more strict than most countries' laws.
As you just need a single page, you aren't in danger of breaking any of the other limitations.

**Blackie**

In many western countries photocopying a few pages (actually signficant portions of the books like 10%) is not copyright infringement, it's perfectly legal. It's making profit out of that copies that is copyright infringement.

And manually rewriting is definitely not copyright infringement, anywhere in the world. Unless, again, you make profits out of it.

**Hecaton**

Dudeface wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Gert wrote:
"Those units aren't invalid you just have to buy three other Codexes. I am very smart".
Without resorting to piracy, those units are going to be invalid for anyone who doesn't have money to drop on 2 more Codexes and a WD supplement that will be replaced by another Codex. So yeah, pretty invalid IMO.

Boy, do I wish that my ork units would get invalidated in the same way as your cult troops are.

There are plenty of solutions which don't involve copyright infringements, but those don't lend themselves well to hyperbole.

Okay, name the plenty of solutions.

1. Buy them
2. Communal/store copies
3. Borrow from friend
4. Counts as to nearest compatible unit

I'm not going to lie, that's basically 3 options and 2 of them are maybe the same thing.

There's ways around it but they're not great.

Borrow, codex, take a picture with your phone. If you hate technology, print it, put it in your book.
Pen&Paper
Copy machine
Create your own version of the datasheet
Get the app code from someone not using the app
Borrow codex when you need to bring the actual thing for an event

You know, the same things people have been doing for the last ten years or so when the rules for their units were no longer available because GW spread them across three white dwarfs, a FW book not available in your country and tattoo on Robbin Cruddance's hip.

Rewriting it, photocopying or creating your own in an exact likeness are all copyright infringement still.

Nah, that's legal in the US. The information contained within isn't classified lol.

**tneva82**

VladimirHerzog wrote:

IMO the codex should have 3 Character datasheet

Exalted Legionnaire
Exalted Cultist
Demon Prince

and then each of them should have ALL relevant weapon/armor/mount/special ability listed on them.

Pity anybody wanting 4 marine characters in their army then

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ccs wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah, the Legends doc restores Jump Packs to various things, Lightning Claws to characters, Bolt Pistols and Combi-Weapons to Warpsmiths, and actual options to Exalted Champions, even if he does have to keep a combi-weapon and can never choose not to have one...

... all in an unofficial, non-tournament legal manner that most people who just play the meta at pickup games will see as "gaining an advantage" or even "cheating" and thus never be allowed outside of groups playing at home.

It's funny how those people were all fine with you taking a Chaos Lord with jump pack yesterday (meaning the day before the new Codex arrived) but today, now that the same option is available via Legends, they're all opposed to it.

One legit issue is that these will be locked like this forever and with points changing constantly that does result in gap between them.

**Blndmage**

But isn't something better than nothing?

If you're gonna say you could do better, then do it an get your local group to agree to it.

Use Legends!

**tneva82**

Gene St. Ealer wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:

pretty sure mutilators were merged with oblits now that they have actual melee weapons

GW may consider it that way, but mutilator models (including my converted ones) have never had ranged weapons, so that's a pretty gakky way to squat them.

Well whole point of oblitrators and mutilators was fluffiwise they adapt and change on the fly? So at least you have way to use the models as obliterators.

And seeing price of obliterator models at least you can save up cash

**wuestenfux**

A poll would be nice here. Quantity could give some more inside too.

**tneva82**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
I'm beginning to think that gw is trying to get Chaos players to buy a small library to get the "full Chaos experience". You need 4 codexes just to get all of the Cult Marines in your CSM army, and it's looking like this book and the Daemons codex are designed to work together as well, considering we've already got a keyword in the CSM codex that's apparently useless without the Daemons codex. So, you want all of the units that we had as recently as the 8th edition codex (minus everything that was just removed, of course)? You'll need:

BTW I really like how AOS does ally/etc stuff in that regard. The basic warscroll is freely available. It's the faction specific bonuses(which allies don't get) you need book for. So in AOS I don't need to get whole book for one stinking unit from other faction I want to add to my army. GW provides all I need for free...No rules I would need to use the model is missing. Literally everything in book besides the warscroll would be unusable any way.

I only need book when I invariably expand my small ally collection to full force

**CadianSgtBob**

Blndmage wrote:
But isn't something better than nothing?

Just barely, and it's still not acceptable. GW needs to do better, period.

Use Legends!

I will when GW treats them like actual rules instead of a lunch break project for the intern that will never be fixed or updated.