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PenitentJake wrote:

Karol wrote:
Okey, but what happens durning the talk.
Guy A I have 20 rubrics, 10 tzangors and a magnus.
Guy B I don't want you to use the magnus, because it makes you win.
Guy A what am I suppose to do then without magnus I don't have a legal force
etc etc

The whole talk thing works only works for people who both own and carry multiple thousands of points in multiple armies. That is an expiriance a 30+ year old may have, but not a teen. Unless they are using their dads or older brothers armies.

So simple:

If I take Magnus out, you take out the same number of points.

<DONE>

Note: You may have to pull a rubric out of the squad to use as a Lord if you only brought 1 HQ.

alternatively : OK, i'll play Magnus as a demon prince



Automatically Appended Next Post:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:

Karol wrote:
Okey, but what happens durning the talk.
Guy A I have 20 rubrics, 10 tzangors and a magnus.
Guy B I don't want you to use the magnus, because it makes you win.
Guy A what am I suppose to do then without magnus I don't have a legal force
etc etc

The whole talk thing works only works for people who both own and carry multiple thousands of points in multiple armies. That is an expiriance a 30+ year old may have, but not a teen. Unless they are using their dads or older brothers armies.

So simple:

If I take Magnus out, you take out the same number of points.

<DONE>

Note: You may have to pull a rubric out of the squad to use as a Lord if you only brought 1 HQ.

Or they still use Magnus. Why should any player have to remove a model from their army just because the opponent has a hissyfit?

Because Magnus + Start collecting is a lot more points than most other big models + start collecting.

Dudeface wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Depends the route you want me to really explain. Loyalists have three duelist characters off the top of my head:
Chapter Champion
Emperors Champion
Judiciar
The second one is not exactly generic of course, but I'll count it since it replaces one of the entries out right if going the Templar route.

The Relic and Warlord Trait access is just astronomically more. Ad I said, if it weren't for the Red Corsairs trait, I wouldn't even look at the Master. Meanwhile, every Marine chapter can make some use of the Champs even if not necessary for the army.

just post a loadout that outperforms the master of execs

That's a tough one to specifically do since there's a ton I'd rather take. Off the top of my head you can do I did a while back:
Judiciar
. Black Templar
. Warlord Trait: Champion of Humanity
. Relic: Tanhausers Bones
. Vow: Depends on enemy composition, but for that game I did Accept Any Challenge.

So he's always swinging at 5 attacks with the relic blade that does an extra mortal wound on a 6 to wound with the Vow bringing those main attacks to AP-4. Warlord Trait gives the extra attack vs enemy characters and +1 to hit and wound them. Lastly, he has the Bones to turn all attacks into D1. Couple in the core abilities he already has (4++ in melee and force opponent to strike last) and being a Black Templar, you got a lot of bang for your buck. That's a lot better than your "throw everything at the Master to make him strike at S10".

And I did this more casually. If I tried stacking everything I could on the Judiciar it's no contest.

How does strike first and last cancel out these days? If it helps mark of slaanesh, if not, mark of tzeentch. Assuming slaanesh, intoxicating elixir means the judiciar literally can't kill him and add on gaze of the gods for a 4++ and permanent wantons. In return the master drops 6+d3 attacks, call it 7 hits, you should be able to fish 4 MW out, and 2 more wounds. And with some luck that's a dead judiciar that turn, if not the next.

This was a TAC list. So I'm not specifically gearing out just to kill the Master of Executions in the same way you're getting to choose MoT vs MoS.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Could we agree on it being a game that we all want to enjoy, perhaps?

Yes.

However, the frustration is real.

Aye. Especially when the biggest roadblock to that enjoyment is because gw made one. Stupid. Pointless. And absolutely mean spirited, decision.

Just ONE?? I'm sure that the count has to be higher than that....

ccs wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Could we agree on it being a game that we all want to enjoy, perhaps?

Yes.

However, the frustration is real.

Aye. Especially when the biggest roadblock to that enjoyment is because gw made one. Stupid. Pointless. And absolutely mean spirited, decision.

Just ONE?? I'm sure that the count has to be higher than that....

Notice that I said the "biggest" roadblock. I can deal with having a Legion trait (been doing that since 8th edition), I can deal with the stupid loadout restrictions (ok, I guess all of my Aspiring Champions just have power fists with pointy fingers and blades on them now), but no jump pack Characters in a Night Lords army? That's the last straw.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
stick him in a transport, surround him with resilient stuff like terminators, apply pressure with other units that your opponent has to deal with.

Oh and if he does end up dead without connection, its not a big deal since he's 80points.... And you can kit him out where he gets a 2+/4++/ignores first damage per turn if you really want him to survive

If he's so good, what are the odds he ends up in a list that top 4s a tournament within the next month? I mean he's so killy how could top players not run him.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
stick him in a transport, surround him with resilient stuff like terminators, apply pressure with other units that your opponent has to deal with.

Oh and if he does end up dead without connection, its not a big deal since he's 80points.... And you can kit him out where he gets a 2+/4++/ignores first damage per turn if you really want him to survive

If he's so good, what are the odds he ends up in a list that top 4s a tournament within the next month? I mean he's so killy how could top players not run him.

Quite frankly I find it weird to even give him a mark since he's one of the better targets for the Individed Daemon Weapon.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
stick him in a transport, surround him with resilient stuff like terminators, apply pressure with other units that your opponent has to deal with.

Oh and if he does end up dead without connection, its not a big deal since he's 80points.... And you can kit him out where he gets a 2+/4++/ignores first damage per turn if you really want him to survive

If he's so good, what are the odds he ends up in a list that top 4s a tournament within the next month? I mean he's so killy how could top players not run him.

Night Lords player with two of them went 4-1 this past weekend.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Night Lords player with two of them went 4-1 this past weekend.

Cool, I guess they are good then. Usually, these 80-point missile-style units fail to see much play.

Pros: All the 30k terminators with unique melee weapons can be fielded as accursed weapons, marks/icons actually do something, daemon weapons are worth using, 2 wounds, and updated traits/relics. 54% winrate according to the metamonday post on reddit so it is playable.
Cons:The codex is hyper sold out everywhere including ebay, 10+ datasheets that couldn't be purchased on launch, massive reduction in build options including illegal loadout models that are currently being sold, and multiple FW datasheets are now broken due to missing keywords.

Doesn't sound like a bonafide success, but overall it should be fixable after a month or two of releases/faqs.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Night Lords player with two of them went 4-1 this past weekend.

Cool, I guess they are good then. Usually, these 80-point missile-style units fail to see much play.

It happened once. Wait for it to be consistent.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
stick him in a transport, surround him with resilient stuff like terminators, apply pressure with other units that your opponent has to deal with.

Oh and if he does end up dead without connection, its not a big deal since he's 80points.... And you can kit him out where he gets a 2+/4++/ignores first damage per turn if you really want him to survive

If he's so good, what are the odds he ends up in a list that top 4s a tournament within the next month? I mean he's so killy how could top players not run him.

Night Lords player with two of them went 4-1 this past weekend.

Yes... in a 31 player slightly larger than RTT event. This isn't like a mid sized GT event or anything.

Let's see that in a larger event before we start celebrating the success.

I am very frustrated with this release enough that I returned the book. There's some really nice entries but overall they just don't outweigh what I lost. And now over 80 percent of my army is illegally modelled. There's so little customization for unit and character entries it'd sickening. This has always been one of the main draws of 40k for me. Losing this aspect not only kills my drive to brew but I feel will reduce longevity of the book from a competitive standpoint.
The book is linear it lacks variety and credible ranged options. It leans heavily on the immortal terminators and mop synergies but when the durability stacking is inevitably faq'd away the book will be left weak. And that's actually my last concern.

A Bonafide success it is not. It panders to the competitive community at the expense of everyone else. Better to make a separate rules set to limit abuse rather than handcuff the entire thing.

I consider it overall worse than what we had and much of that subtle so may not even be apparent to some players yet. And they couldn't even put AOC in the book lolz.

It could have been stellar with some reasonable changes. If they hadn't leaned on the durability stacking so hard, removed customization in nearly every entry, deleted classic popular wargear, increased strat costs and even nerfed many entries on top of it all.

My main hope now is they pull another traitor legions and print a completely new one in 2 months. Happened before..

Until then hard pass from me.

Be sure to write to GW about your decision and how they've invalidated so much of your army.

I encourage all Chaos players to do the same.

Once I've finished my runthrough of the book I'll be collecting my thoughts in a letter as well.

dominuschao wrote:


A Bonafide success it is not. It panders to the competitive community

Like hell it does. It isn't even that powerful!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Once I've finished my runthrough of the book I'll be collecting my thoughts in a letter as well.

Would you mind posting the text of your letter here when you do, HBMC?

Hecaton wrote:


Also, your denigration of people who play "competitive" smacks of catty, scrubby behavior, and is anti-growth mindset. It's very common to agree to a test of wits with your friends, which is what a good strategy game *should* be. It's the mental equivalent of play wrestling, which every mammal from rodents to humans does; being phobic of competing in an environment where you can't be hurt is something you should work on, and is likely a result of some kind of insecurity. It's not unsportsmanlike to try your best to beat your opponent, as long as you follow the rules of the game and are gracious in your demeanor.

I have too many gaming buddies to know all their collections by heart. Also, the only way to match up lists to be "on par" is to have extensive knowledge of the current meta, which changes week-to-week, and is something *you* decried in this very post I'm replying to.

I havent't decried anything, nor I denigrated competitive people. I just say play with people sharing your own mindset. I sometimes play competitive games, but I need to know in advance I'm going to play such kind of games. Because, as I said, there's no point in playing 40k games when one list is much better than the other one. I believe it'd be a waste of time, that's it. I avoid this kind of unbalance with pre-game talk. I wish I didn't have to do it, but at least I need much less effort now than in previous editions, including the last one. It's one of the reasons why I like 9th edition, definitely more than anything post 5th.

But unlike you I have a very different idea of a friendly game. That's ok, no problem. I'm not even against blind games, I simply believe they only work for competitive people who are willing to chase to flavour of the month. So if someone is not willing to do it, that player should simply try to avoid playing such kind of games, simple. 40k is everyone's game, people do seek different goals in their hobby, there isn't a best way to play 40k.

Going back to CSM, I finally read the codex. The whole 97 stratagems is a bit disingenuous since most of them are either legion of god locked. Yeah, the codex has tons of rules, but during the game one player has a set of 20ish stratagems available, not the whole hundred.

Generally speaking I like the idea of giving different rules/tools for different subfaction, that's not the bloat I'd like to be reduced. It's wargear and datasheets that I'd like to be merged. And army wide rules also.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

dominuschao wrote:


A Bonafide success it is not. It panders to the competitive community

Like hell it does. It isn't even that powerful!

So is the community only interested in easy win books or do they prefer something to be balanced and middle of the road?

I agree it doesn't seem to pander to anyone but don't give the competitive community the wrong image.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dominuschao wrote:
I am very frustrated with this release enough that I returned the book. There's some really nice entries but overall they just don't outweigh what I lost. And now over 80 percent of my army is illegally modelled.

Is 80% of your army jump lords and Terminators with combi-Plas and/or dual lightning claws?

Dudeface wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

dominuschao wrote:


A Bonafide success it is not. It panders to the competitive community

Like hell it does. It isn't even that powerful!

So is the community only interested in easy win books or do they prefer something to be balanced and middle of the road?

I agree it doesn't seem to pander to anyone but don't give the competitive community the wrong image.

indeed. However the Moe specifically is wasted design space.

the fact that the MoE exists, and isn't just another loadout option for an aspiring champion is already a design failure, the fact that like the aspiring champion he has no options to speak of beyond relics or WLT^'s is... euugh.

it's just not a good datasheet.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

dominuschao wrote:


A Bonafide success it is not. It panders to the competitive community

Like hell it does. It isn't even that powerful!

I think he meant that it panders to the competitive side by being simplified and stripped of options so that it would be easier to balance, not that GW ever does anything to balance the game other than show intent to surgically balance then preform that surgery with a sledgehammer.

Dudeface wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

dominuschao wrote:


A Bonafide success it is not. It panders to the competitive community

Like hell it does. It isn't even that powerful!

So is the community only interested in easy win books or do they prefer something to be balanced and middle of the road?

I agree it doesn't seem to pander to anyone but don't give the competitive community the wrong image.

I don't think it's that close to middle of the road to be frank. I keep going over the codex and things just don't mesh well. It means I have to go back to writing lists as Carcharodons or Black Templars, but I ain't complaining. After all, if you make your Marines any color you want you aren't relegated to a specific codex. However, anyone wanting to use Chaos Marines, be it in a casual or competitive setting, is going to be pretty disappointed with the performance AND options in both mindsets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sim-Life wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

dominuschao wrote:


A Bonafide success it is not. It panders to the competitive community

Like hell it does. It isn't even that powerful!

I think he meant that it panders to the competitive side by being simplified and stripped of options so that it would be easier to balance, not that GW ever does anything to balance the game other than show intent to surgically balance then preform that surgery with a sledgehammer.

Strange, as the "too many options" complaint wasn't heard once with Tau.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Strange, as the "too many options" complaint wasn't heard once with Tau.

I'm going to assume you mean neither competitive player or casual complained about too many option, which they didn't because it's not clear what you're refering to. All player love options, its about the only time casual and competitive people will agree. But GW thinks simplified rules (in terms of variety such as with Chaos terminator power weapons) are easier to balance. Thats why most special rules now are now some form of +/-1 modifier, reroll aura or whatnot. Balance is something competitive players demand and casual players are fairly "ech" about.

Dudeface wrote:
Is 80% of your army jump lords and Terminators with combi-Plas and/or dual lightning claws?

Combi-weapon Chosen, any of the Cult Marines that are now not in the Codex, Mutilators, and while yes every single person who did duplicate weapons on their CSM or used 20 man units now just has more squads, it's not a solution to the problem and forces those players into MSU.

Didn't the CSM 'dex include something that allowed the Cult units no longer in the book to still be used in Heretic Astartes detachments without breaking 'dex-special-rules?

Not Online!!! wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

dominuschao wrote:


A Bonafide success it is not. It panders to the competitive community

Like hell it does. It isn't even that powerful!

So is the community only interested in easy win books or do they prefer something to be balanced and middle of the road?

I agree it doesn't seem to pander to anyone but don't give the competitive community the wrong image.

indeed. However the Moe specifically is wasted design space.

the fact that the MoE exists, and isn't just another loadout option for an aspiring champion is already a design failure, the fact that like the aspiring champion he has no options to speak of beyond relics or WLT^'s is... euugh.

it's just not a good datasheet.

It's weird how they went so far to reduce actual equipment options and then tried to replace them with relics/traits, only to have that particular plan fall apart under the Nephalim rules. This codex was nerfed before it even hit the table.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Be sure to write to GW about your decision and how they've invalidated so much of your army.

I encourage all Chaos players to do the same.

Once I've finished my runthrough of the book I'll be collecting my thoughts in a letter as well.

Seconded. Just complaining on Dakka won't accomplish much. Let gw know what you think of this book people.

Looking forward to your review H.B.M.C.. Will you be comparing this codex to any other recent gw publications that also cover the Traitor Legions in it? I think that might be Interesting.

I will of course be comparing it to the the day the music died....

 Dysartes wrote:
Didn't the CSM 'dex include something that allowed the Cult units no longer in the book to still be used in Heretic Astartes detachments without breaking 'dex-special-rules?

Sure let me just spend another £90 on three more Codexes for the one unit per book.

 Gert wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Didn't the CSM 'dex include something that allowed the Cult units no longer in the book to still be used in Heretic Astartes detachments without breaking 'dex-special-rules?

Sure let me just spend another £90 on three more Codexes for the one unit per book.

So they would be in the "not invalidated" section when it comes to units, then? Glad to hear we're on the same page, Gert.

"Those units aren't invalid you just have to buy three other Codexes. I am very smart".
Without resorting to piracy, those units are going to be invalid for anyone who doesn't have money to drop on 2 more Codexes and a WD supplement that will be replaced by another Codex. So yeah, pretty invalid IMO.

 Gert wrote:
"Those units aren't invalid you just have to buy three other Codexes. I am very smart".
Without resorting to piracy, those units are going to be invalid for anyone who doesn't have money to drop on 2 more Codexes and a WD supplement that will be replaced by another Codex. So yeah, pretty invalid IMO.

I mean if you have 1600 points of combi weapon chosen/terminators, jump lords, raptor champions with claws and cult units you don't want to buy other rules for, that sucks. But its far from ordinary.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I will of course be comparing it to the the day the music died....

I was more thinking of a comparison to the Liber Hereticus, as the difference is both stark and surprising, considering how closely in time the two books were released and most likely written. But I guess I did a bit of that up thread already.

Gert wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Didn't the CSM 'dex include something that allowed the Cult units no longer in the book to still be used in Heretic Astartes detachments without breaking 'dex-special-rules?

Sure let me just spend another £90 on three more Codexes for the one unit per book.

I'm beginning to think that gw is trying to get Chaos players to buy a small library to get the "full Chaos experience". You need 4 codexes just to get all of the Cult Marines in your CSM army, and it's looking like this book and the Daemons codex are designed to work together as well, considering we've already got a keyword in the CSM codex that's apparently useless without the Daemons codex. So, you want all of the units that we had as recently as the 8th edition codex (minus everything that was just removed, of course)? You'll need:

1: Codex: Chaos Space Marines - The basic "Chaos Undivided" stuff + Noise Marines.

2: Codex: Death Guard - Plague Marines.

3: Codex: Thousand Sons - Rubric Marines.

4: Codex: World Eaters - Khorne Berzerkers.

5: Codex: Chaos Daemons - Any Daemons you want to summon.

And that's just to get what used to be the "basics". If you want any Chaos Knights or HH units/more Daemon Engines you'll need to throw in the Chaos Knights codex and Imperial Armour Compendium as well. I'm waiting for gw to offer it all as a package deal (with no discount), and call it the "Encyclopedia Chaotica".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:

 Gert wrote:
"Those units aren't invalid you just have to buy three other Codexes. I am very smart".
Without resorting to piracy, those units are going to be invalid for anyone who doesn't have money to drop on 2 more Codexes and a WD supplement that will be replaced by another Codex. So yeah, pretty invalid IMO.

I mean if you have 1600 points of combi weapon chosen/terminators, jump lords, raptor champions with claws and cult units you don't want to buy other rules for, that sucks. But its far from ordinary.

Excuse me? There's a book that has rules for my: "Combi-weapon Chosen/Terminators, Jump Lords, and Raptor Champions with claws"? When is/was that released? In 40k I mean. I already have the book that does that for 30k.