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nekooni wrote:
So your entire argument is that you can lie about the reason you copied protected material? That was obviously always a "solution", but that's not remotely close to arguing in good faith.

While I appreciate a solid Kantian moral standpoint, lying only comes up if confronted on the subject (for example, if someone expended the rather significant resources involved to get you in front of a judge). Most likely, lying is completely unnecessary unless you're showing up with a photocopy of every page in the codex, in which case, yes, you're probably violating the most likely justification in the list, namely 'Fair dealing'.

After all, to continue with the rampant Plague Marine datasheet copying as an example, you're probably using Plague Marine models purchased from GW, possibly at a GW event, wherein GW products are promoted. Do you really think you'll even be challenged on your single photocopied sheet containing the Plague Marine dataslate? Seems unlikely.

But, from a Kantian standpoint, you have a point, although I think even Kant might budge a little on that one. However, if you want to remain convinced that you'll be hunted like a heretic and put to the question, far be it from me to dissuade you of your own preconceptions.

Or we can just pirate the codex since paying $50+ for rules that are invalidated less than a month after release is bad personal finance, let alone paying it for a single unit because GW couldn't be bothered to print 3 of those units in the codex itself.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Or we can just pirate the codex since paying $50+ for rules that are invalidated less than a month after release is bad personal finance, let alone paying it for a single unit because GW couldn't be bothered to print 3 of those units in the codex itself.

but nononono, muh poor GW is gonna go out of business!!!!

If you can hand wave away copying a page of a book you don't own to use to circumvent a purchase, why stop there? Just copy the whole book? I don't understand how you can view pirating a bit of a book as any different than the whole thing.

I did say earlier in the thread I'd be fully understanding if someone went down that route in this circumstance but I don't promote piracy.

Dudeface wrote:
If you can hand wave away copying a page of a book you don't own to use to circumvent a purchase, why stop there? Just copy the whole book? I don't understand how you can view pirating a bit of a book as any different than the whole thing.

I did say earlier in the thread I'd be fully understanding if someone went down that route in this circumstance but I don't promote piracy.

Because copying a few pages is fine according to law, copying a whole book isnt

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
If you can hand wave away copying a page of a book you don't own to use to circumvent a purchase, why stop there? Just copy the whole book? I don't understand how you can view pirating a bit of a book as any different than the whole thing.

I did say earlier in the thread I'd be fully understanding if someone went down that route in this circumstance but I don't promote piracy.

Because copying a few pages is fine according to law, copying a whole book isnt

It isn't though, nobody in here has given a fair reason beyond journalistic use, which in return also doesn't limit the number of pages.

Literally the main defence is "they cba to sue you for it don't worry", which is definitely true, but it isn't justification.

Dudeface wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
If you can hand wave away copying a page of a book you don't own to use to circumvent a purchase, why stop there? Just copy the whole book? I don't understand how you can view pirating a bit of a book as any different than the whole thing.

I did say earlier in the thread I'd be fully understanding if someone went down that route in this circumstance but I don't promote piracy.

Because copying a few pages is fine according to law, copying a whole book isnt

It isn't though, nobody in here has given a fair reason beyond journalistic use, which in return also doesn't limit the number of pages.

Literally the main defence is "they cba to sue you for it don't worry", which is definitely true, but it isn't justification.

Non-commercial research and private study
Text and data mining for non-commercial research
Criticism, review and reporting current events
Teaching
Helping disabled people
Parody, caricature and pastiche
Fair dealing

Or do you want us to find a law that litterally states "You may make copies of up to 3,75 pages of a Game Workshop (tm) Codex (tm)"?

 Blackie wrote:
In many western countries photocopying a few pages (actually signficant portions of the books like 10%) is not copyright infringement, it's perfectly legal. It's making profit out of that copies that is copyright infringement.

And manually rewriting is definitely not copyright infringement, anywhere in the world. Unless, again, you make profits out of it.

Actually that's called plagarism. While not illegal per se, it can still be copyright infringement depending on where you are, what you do with the subject and/or how you duplicate the subject. Please consult a copyright attorney before dispensing legal advice. I will say that it's doubtful that GW will even bother going after you for making personal copies for your private use (if they even find out about you).

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
If you can hand wave away copying a page of a book you don't own to use to circumvent a purchase, why stop there? Just copy the whole book? I don't understand how you can view pirating a bit of a book as any different than the whole thing.

I did say earlier in the thread I'd be fully understanding if someone went down that route in this circumstance but I don't promote piracy.

Because copying a few pages is fine according to law, copying a whole book isnt

It isn't though, nobody in here has given a fair reason beyond journalistic use, which in return also doesn't limit the number of pages.

Literally the main defence is "they cba to sue you for it don't worry", which is definitely true, but it isn't justification.

Non-commercial research and private study
Text and data mining for non-commercial research
Criticism, review and reporting current events
Teaching
Helping disabled people
Parody, caricature and pastiche
Fair dealing

Or do you want us to find a law that litterally states "You may make copies of up to 3,75 pages of a Game Workshop (tm) Codex (tm)"?

OK, you explain to me how and what you're teaching (in a professional capacity) using a photocopied plague marine datasheet, whilst playing a game of 40k at your local store.

What is your private research and can you present it?

If you're text or data mining from the copied sheet, that doesn't involve using it for a game.

How does photocopying it help a disabled person? If you give them a copy to read, that means you own the book to have alongside them.

Parody of a datasheet? I'd love to see someone explain how the verbatim plague marine datasheet is a parody of something.

Fair use? The fair use clause that says copying to avoid market interactions is not OK?

Dudeface wrote:
It isn't though, nobody in here has given a fair reason beyond journalistic use, which in return also doesn't limit the number of pages.

Literally the main defence is "they cba to sue you for it don't worry", which is definitely true, but it isn't justification.

If you've read all the exceptions on that page and still think that copying a single page is a violation, there is nothing anyone here can say which would convince you otherwise. Please feel free to cut off your nose to spite your face.

Dudeface wrote:
If you can hand wave away copying a page of a book you don't own to use to circumvent a purchase, why stop there? Just copy the whole book? I don't understand how you can view pirating a bit of a book as any different than the whole thing.

I did say earlier in the thread I'd be fully understanding if someone went down that route in this circumstance but I don't promote piracy.

It really isn't, and that's why I basically encourage it until GW gets their act together.

TBH, non functional product, and arguably a ruleset invalidating vast swaaths of models and removing culttroops is that, is also not a product that you can demand full price on normaly over here.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
It isn't though, nobody in here has given a fair reason beyond journalistic use, which in return also doesn't limit the number of pages.

Literally the main defence is "they cba to sue you for it don't worry", which is definitely true, but it isn't justification.

If you've read all the exceptions on that page and still think that copying a single page is a violation, there is nothing anyone here can say which would convince you otherwise. Please feel free to cut off your nose to spite your face.

Copying a single page to solely avoid buying a book for no better reason than saving money is a violation as per those exceptions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:
TBH, non functional product, and arguably a ruleset invalidating vast swaaths of models and removing culttroops is that, is also not a product that you can demand full price on normaly over here.

You'd be welcome to not buy it or negotiate the price with a store owner on those grounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
If you can hand wave away copying a page of a book you don't own to use to circumvent a purchase, why stop there? Just copy the whole book? I don't understand how you can view pirating a bit of a book as any different than the whole thing.

I did say earlier in the thread I'd be fully understanding if someone went down that route in this circumstance but I don't promote piracy.

It really isn't, and that's why I basically encourage it until GW gets their act together.

For once I doff my cap to you for the frank honesty compared to most.

I did, i am certainly not paying for what is equivalent to used toilet paper for me in value

I will still denounce it as the garbage it is, same with gw's pricing structure in general.

Not Online!!! wrote:
I did, i am certainly not paying for what is equivalent to used toilet paper for me in value

I will still denounce it as the garbage it is, same with gw's pricing structure in general.

Yeah the pricing structure has to stop at some point before they self destruct.

Dudeface wrote:
Copying a single page to solely avoid buying a book for no better reason than saving money is a violation as per those exceptions.

Except that perspective matters in this case, I'm copying a page to fairly use a product I already own, namely Plague Marines in this example. I have a hard time imagining a more legitimate argument for 'Fair dealing'.

Honestly, at this point, you're arguing semantics out of spite.

Dudeface wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I did, i am certainly not paying for what is equivalent to used toilet paper for me in value

I will still denounce it as the garbage it is, same with gw's pricing structure in general.

Yeah the pricing structure has to stop at some point before they self destruct.

Again, that doesn't happen in a bubble to the general gaming industry , which seemingly infected even BMW and tesla with microtransaction and On-disc" (rather on car?) DLC.

They believe they can get away with whale hunting, forgeting that bots don't make for a great gaming community in a game that is driven by community by and large still.

ALAS, GW gonna GW...

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
If you can hand wave away copying a page of a book you don't own to use to circumvent a purchase, why stop there? Just copy the whole book? I don't understand how you can view pirating a bit of a book as any different than the whole thing.

I did say earlier in the thread I'd be fully understanding if someone went down that route in this circumstance but I don't promote piracy.

Because copying a few pages is fine according to law, copying a whole book isnt

Define "a few pages"..... Because I'm not going to ever copy 1/2 the book as that's just color pictures & lore. And depending upon the type of game I might not copy the Crusade content.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Copying a single page to solely avoid buying a book for no better reason than saving money is a violation as per those exceptions.

Except that perspective matters in this case, I'm copying a page to fairly use a product I already own, namely Plague Marines in this example. I have a hard time imagining a more legitimate argument for 'Fair dealing'.

Honestly, at this point, you're arguing semantics out of spite.

I bought 10 litres of fuel, better go get a free car to get fair use of it. I bought an eldar codex, better to help myself to some kits to get fair use from it. I bought a pan, better go get a free hob to make fair use of it.

I'm not arguing semantics out of spite, you're seemingly endorsing pirating out of ignorance.

Dudeface wrote:
I bought 10 litres of fuel, better go get a free car to get fair use of it. I bought an eldar codex, better to help myself to some kits to get fair use from it. I bought a pan, better go get a free hob to make fair use of it.

I'm not arguing semantics out of spite, you're seemingly endorsing pirating out of ignorance.

Ok, sure, I'm tired of arguing with your reading comprehension levels. Enjoy life, try a library sometime.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I bought 10 litres of fuel, better go get a free car to get fair use of it. I bought an eldar codex, better to help myself to some kits to get fair use from it. I bought a pan, better go get a free hob to make fair use of it.

I'm not arguing semantics out of spite, you're seemingly endorsing pirating out of ignorance.

Ok, sure, I'm tired of arguing with your reading comprehension levels. Enjoy life, try a library sometime.

That UK heatwave really boiled some peeps brains didn't it...

 Grimtuff wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I bought 10 litres of fuel, better go get a free car to get fair use of it. I bought an eldar codex, better to help myself to some kits to get fair use from it. I bought a pan, better go get a free hob to make fair use of it.

I'm not arguing semantics out of spite, you're seemingly endorsing pirating out of ignorance.

Ok, sure, I'm tired of arguing with your reading comprehension levels. Enjoy life, try a library sometime.

That UK heatwave really boiled some peeps brains didn't it...

Nah it's all perspective.

Legit challenge: go to a GW store and overtly ask a staff member if you can take a photo of a units datasheet to use later, citing it's fair usage because you bought the models. Let me know how you get on.

Dudeface wrote:


Nah it's all perspective.

Legit challenge: go to a GW store and overtly ask a staff member if you can take a photo of a units datasheet to use later, citing it's fair usage because you bought the models. Let me know how you get on.

Because store employees know the legal ramification of such a thing.

Even then, i wouldn't be surprised if a semi-reasonable employee would understand your situation and say "oh sure, you just bought plague marines and you want to include them in your csm list, you can take a pic of the datasheet off my codex no problem"


Still, this thread is getting wayy of course, we've been arguing about the legal ramification of copyright for too long.

It sucks that the player has to do extra steps to get their datasheet which shouldve been in the codex to begin with.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


Nah it's all perspective.

Legit challenge: go to a GW store and overtly ask a staff member if you can take a photo of a units datasheet to use later, citing it's fair usage because you bought the models. Let me know how you get on.

Because store employees know the legal ramification of such a thing.

Even then, i wouldn't be surprised if a semi-reasonable employee would understand your situation and say "oh sure, you just bought plague marines and you want to include them in your csm list, you can take a pic of the datasheet off my codex no problem"


Still, this thread is getting wayy of course, we've been arguing about the legal ramification of copyright for too long.

It sucks that the player has to do extra steps to get their datasheet which shouldve been in the codex to begin with.

I sympathise why it isn't in the codex simultaneously though, it's a duplicate datasheet to have to amend and edit every time the sister book gets an update. Same way we had 1w fnp plague marines stood next to 2w -1d plague marines for 2 years.

VladimirHerzog wrote:

Non-commercial research and private study
Text and data mining for non-commercial research
Criticism, review and reporting current events
Teaching
Helping disabled people
Parody, caricature and pastiche
Fair dealing

Or do you want us to find a law that litterally states "You may make copies of up to 3,75 pages of a Game Workshop (tm) Codex (tm)"?

Those are all contextual exceptions to the general rule - and as Dudeface pointed out, "copying a datasheet so I don't have to buy another book (or, for now, White Dwarf)" wouldn't fall into any of those.

Dudeface wrote:Parody of a datasheet? I'd love to see someone explain how the verbatim plague marine datasheet is a parody of something.

The 9th ed Plague Marine datasheet is, among others, a parody of the 8th edition datasheet for the same unit?

Mozzamanx wrote:
You will struggle with the 'Mere Mortals' rule as you cannot have more Cultist units than you do Core Infantry. This does not apply to Possessed which means that you must counter every unit of Cultists with another unit of Legionaries, Chosen, Terminators, Raptors or Havocs.

I do imagine we'll see an AoR in the future that leans hard into cultists and removes that restriction.

GW should just give datesheets that come with models away on request. Or put them online AOS style. Theres still plenty of rules you need to buy after.

Dai wrote:
GW should just give datesheets that come with models away on request. Or put them online AOS style. Theres still plenty of rules you need to buy after.

What are you talking about? AoS data sheets haven't been free online (unless you mean Legends, or maybe their App) for a year now. At least not here in the USA.

They weren't showing on the GW site or on WHC anywhere I could find earlier, either, after tneva made a similar claim in another thread.

TBF they are free in the app, and the AoS app is reasonably functional.