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While painted models are nice I love to have and want to see other people have, in my experience the people who get touchy about their opponents models are by FAR the least pleasant people to play with/talk to/be around in general. Rods so far up their ass you can see it poking against the top of their skull.

So you know, my painting requirement is more like 'if you have one I'm going to avoid you like the plague'. I'm here for a good game the end.

Edit: this actually applies to WYSIWYG and the like as well. I build my stuff WYSIWYG generally because I attend a lot of events, but in my experience people who are touchy about it in pick up/casual/friendly games aren't good opponents.

I pretty much only play with my own models painted- it's one of the reasons I'm stuck in small game mode; I am a slow painter and (I have 8 different Crusade forces on the go, so that doesn't help).

As for standards: I'm not the greatest painter, but I have really tried to step up my game this year- both in terms of quantity AND quality. I'm using more, thinner layers; I'm paying more attention to shading and highlighting, and Crusade has really made me think more about basing/ model evolution.

I like to add a skull to each base for every battle honour, and I try to keep the skulls of the species I was fighting when the Honour was earned. Some models I will magnetize their special bits so that they can be added as earned- the Dialogus kit was great for this- she'll get her scripture backpack once she's blooded and her hover lectern when she's heroic.

I'm using 5 separate models to represent my GSC Patriarch at his various stages of growth (I'm fortunate/ long in the tooth enough to have both classic metal Patriarchs).

I tend to go over the top designing terrain... Things like breakaway buildings to expose interiors or represent battle damage. In practice though? Once the army(s) are ready, I'll use whatever terrain is available to make a game happen.

I prefer my opponents to have their armies painted as well, but I won't turn down a game against an unpainted foe... Unless I'm specifically aiming to use the game for a batrep or stop motion video.

(Stop motion videos are fun, but it's a whole different experience, as you basically only get through one turn a day- you need to be able to have the table set up for a week)

Asmodios wrote:
A lot of this thread is really funny because its made to sound like those that want to play against another painted army are being "snobs"... But isnt demanding someone play against you and enjoy your unpainted army the definition of entitlment?

My time to actually play the game is pretty limited, so I really would rather play a game that looks good, against another painted army. It's possible my experiences with unpainted armies color my views, but it's not people with demanding jobs and homelives who don't paint their stuff. It's overwhelmingly people with part time jobs and no kids and I'm like... how is your time at that much of a premium?

Apple fox wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
The game is immersive for many and I think the look of an army is part of that immersion.

I wouldn’t like to regularly play against someone who flat out doesn’t paint anything but I’d someone adds some WIP models to a painted army that’s cool.

I think there are so many companies doing speed paints, like contrast, that it’s not hard to prime some models and coat them in a single colour. Even that’s better than nothing.

But I’m way more into the painting than the playing

Priming is the hardest part for me when working on models, and I dislike playing with models being painted as often that’s when damage can occur to the paint.

All in all, I don’t care much for 40k. And more get excited for good paint at skirmish games, where we can see the individual more. But I don’t even remember specifically any games I play against painted army’s over none painted.

What do you find difficult about priming?

mrFickle wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
The game is immersive for many and I think the look of an army is part of that immersion.

I wouldn’t like to regularly play against someone who flat out doesn’t paint anything but I’d someone adds some WIP models to a painted army that’s cool.

I think there are so many companies doing speed paints, like contrast, that it’s not hard to prime some models and coat them in a single colour. Even that’s better than nothing.

But I’m way more into the painting than the playing

Priming is the hardest part for me when working on models, and I dislike playing with models being painted as often that’s when damage can occur to the paint.

All in all, I don’t care much for 40k. And more get excited for good paint at skirmish games, where we can see the individual more. But I don’t even remember specifically any games I play against painted army’s over none painted.

What do you find difficult about priming?

when priming with a can :

overspraying
non ideal conditions that cause bubbling/dusting

primer is the easiest part to feth up tbh.

Yeah primer fuckups are routine and a huge hassle to fix.

I buy a lot of second hand models and the most fethed difficult to salvage ones are ALWAYS the ones with priming disasters.

AB primers also can have issues since they can be thin and might peel or scratch and create texture (and can't always be sanded)

mrFickle wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
The game is immersive for many and I think the look of an army is part of that immersion.

I wouldn’t like to regularly play against someone who flat out doesn’t paint anything but I’d someone adds some WIP models to a painted army that’s cool.

I think there are so many companies doing speed paints, like contrast, that it’s not hard to prime some models and coat them in a single colour. Even that’s better than nothing.

But I’m way more into the painting than the playing

Priming is the hardest part for me when working on models, and I dislike playing with models being painted as often that’s when damage can occur to the paint.

All in all, I don’t care much for 40k. And more get excited for good paint at skirmish games, where we can see the individual more. But I don’t even remember specifically any games I play against painted army’s over none painted.

What do you find difficult about priming?

I am disabled with limited use of my hands, and breathing issues. I am in bed for a lot of time, so doing any type of spray priming is a lot of effort, and takes a lot of planing, and help from others in the house.
Any dust from paint, or fumes is also very much a issue.
I also can’t always push in the nozzle on spray cans, and even opening a pop top on a tight paint pot has left me with injury that can last weeks or months.

To above, I actually take a lot of effort painting, it’s part of the hobby I like. Being told to just do the bare minimum doesn’t make me feel good, it doesn’t make it seem like they care at all about how my army looks.
So putting minimum effort for anyone like that seems like a waste of time, as I will dislike the result.
But pretzel logic for doing the hobby my way!

mrFickle wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
The game is immersive for many and I think the look of an army is part of that immersion.

I wouldn’t like to regularly play against someone who flat out doesn’t paint anything but I’d someone adds some WIP models to a painted army that’s cool.

I think there are so many companies doing speed paints, like contrast, that it’s not hard to prime some models and coat them in a single colour. Even that’s better than nothing.

But I’m way more into the painting than the playing

Priming is the hardest part for me when working on models, and I dislike playing with models being painted as often that’s when damage can occur to the paint.

All in all, I don’t care much for 40k. And more get excited for good paint at skirmish games, where we can see the individual more. But I don’t even remember specifically any games I play against painted army’s over none painted.

What do you find difficult about priming?

Priming's one of those things that is stupidly easy once you've got some practice and the right space to do it in. But I remember my first attempts at spray priming were terrible. Too much paint, then spraying from too far, or spraying in a dusty environment, or in the freezing cold, and so on...

Until you get it figured out priming can be quite annoying, and mistakes at that stage are by far the hardest to fix.

Apple fox wrote:
I am disabled with limited use of my hands, and breathing issues. I am in bed for a lot of time, so doing any type of spray priming is a lot of effort, and takes a lot of planing, and help from others in the house.
Any dust from paint, or fumes is also very much a issue.
I also can’t always push in the nozzle on spray cans, and even opening a pop top on a tight paint pot has left me with injury that can last weeks or months.

There are really good brush on primers now. I recommend the Vallejo ones, as they make a nice range of colors and has nice ocverage, especially on plastic. Spray primers are tough for a lot of people, either due to apartment living, or living in areas of really high (or low) humidity, or cold winters. As GW models become more dynamically posed, hand priming is more and more necassary as a touch up anyway.

To above, I actually take a lot of effort painting, it’s part of the hobby I like. Being told to just do the bare minimum doesn’t make me feel good, it doesn’t make it seem like they care at all about how my army looks.
So putting minimum effort for anyone like that seems like a waste of time, as I will dislike the result.
But pretzel logic for doing the hobby my way!

I'm sorry if my comments offended you, that wasn't my goal. I'm saying that even doing the bare minimum makes the army look better. I can't say that all painting effort leads to looking better, but it's a strong correlation. I'm trying to encourage people to at least try. If you're trying already, than great! I'm supportive and I'll cheer you on.

I'm not busting balls when people are trying, and obviously you have to account for people's physical and mental capabilities. What grinds my gears are people with normal motor skills, plenty of free time, and just choose not to paint at all.

 Polonius wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
I am disabled with limited use of my hands, and breathing issues. I am in bed for a lot of time, so doing any type of spray priming is a lot of effort, and takes a lot of planing, and help from others in the house.
Any dust from paint, or fumes is also very much a issue.
I also can’t always push in the nozzle on spray cans, and even opening a pop top on a tight paint pot has left me with injury that can last weeks or months.

There are really good brush on primers now. I recommend the Vallejo ones, as they make a nice range of colors and has nice ocverage, especially on plastic. Spray primers are tough for a lot of people, either due to apartment living, or living in areas of really high (or low) humidity, or cold winters. As GW models become more dynamically posed, hand priming is more and more necassary as a touch up anyway.

To above, I actually take a lot of effort painting, it’s part of the hobby I like. Being told to just do the bare minimum doesn’t make me feel good, it doesn’t make it seem like they care at all about how my army looks.
So putting minimum effort for anyone like that seems like a waste of time, as I will dislike the result.
But pretzel logic for doing the hobby my way!

I'm sorry if my comments offended you, that wasn't my goal. I'm saying that even doing the bare minimum makes the army look better. I can't say that all painting effort leads to looking better, but it's a strong correlation. I'm trying to encourage people to at least try. If you're trying already, than great! I'm supportive and I'll cheer you on.

I'm not busting balls when people are trying, and obviously you have to account for people's physical and mental capabilities. What grinds my gears are people with normal motor skills, plenty of free time, and just choose not to paint at all.

Again, some people don’t like to paint. You can’t force people to do something they don’t like. Unless you are offering to do it yourself or pay for someone to paint it, there is really nothing you can do. If you don’t want to play against it that’s fine, but when you start shaming other people and telling them they are doing the hobby wrong because they don’t want to, then it becomes a point of contention.

 Polonius wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
I am disabled with limited use of my hands, and breathing issues. I am in bed for a lot of time, so doing any type of spray priming is a lot of effort, and takes a lot of planing, and help from others in the house.
Any dust from paint, or fumes is also very much a issue.
I also can’t always push in the nozzle on spray cans, and even opening a pop top on a tight paint pot has left me with injury that can last weeks or months.

There are really good brush on primers now. I recommend the Vallejo ones, as they make a nice range of colors and has nice ocverage, especially on plastic. Spray primers are tough for a lot of people, either due to apartment living, or living in areas of really high (or low) humidity, or cold winters. As GW models become more dynamically posed, hand priming is more and more necassary as a touch up anyway.

To above, I actually take a lot of effort painting, it’s part of the hobby I like. Being told to just do the bare minimum doesn’t make me feel good, it doesn’t make it seem like they care at all about how my army looks.
So putting minimum effort for anyone like that seems like a waste of time, as I will dislike the result.
But pretzel logic for doing the hobby my way!

I'm sorry if my comments offended you, that wasn't my goal. I'm saying that even doing the bare minimum makes the army look better. I can't say that all painting effort leads to looking better, but it's a strong correlation. I'm trying to encourage people to at least try. If you're trying already, than great! I'm supportive and I'll cheer you on.

I'm not busting balls when people are trying, and obviously you have to account for people's physical and mental capabilities. What grinds my gears are people with normal motor skills, plenty of free time, and just choose not to paint at all.

I do actually prefer spray, and when I can I use airbrush but that’s like a full day planing.

And that was a I wish my English was better to give a better response, as I don’t actually think was directed at me. But often when people bring this sorta discussion off the internet it often ends up right there.
Why I think it’s great there are options to easy do a army when considering more traditional hobby, I don’t think it’s actually all that useful in discussions like this.

I have had a army effectively made invalid by GW, my last fully painted army. Not just in need of rework, but completely changed to something that won’t enjoy playing.
And I think with GW being so hopeless at this, it’s not just me that can feel upended in this hobby.
And I feel it’s lead indirectly to the way a lot of people feel about there factions and the models they have.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

Again, some people don’t like to paint. You can’t force people to do something they don’t like. Unless you are offering to do it yourself or pay for someone to paint it, there is really nothing you can do. If you don’t want to play against it that’s fine, but when you start shaming other people and telling them they are doing the hobby wrong because they don’t want to, then it becomes a point of contention.

I'm not forcing anybody to do anything. And being judgmental about people not painting isn't gatekeeping, it's just recognizing that some people are more complete hobbyists that others. Like, I have no problem with a person wearing an old t-shirt and gym shorts and not showering for a few days. that's they're god given right, and one I've indulged in a few times. But when I'm at a fine dining restaurant, I'm sitting next to Stinky McGee wearing a tattered "Big Johnson" t-shirt while I'm having a date with my wife, it kind of sucks, right? I'm not going to walk past two guys playing with unpainted armies and make fun of them, because that's weird and rude and bad.

But... and hear me out on this... the way I enjoy the hobby is by playing other painted armies, and I'm going to prioritize doing that. When I need to get in a game, I'll roll against unpainted plastic. Once at a tournament a kid had only glued the legs of his necrons to the bases, and I still played. Whatever. OTOH, a group of local guys organized an apoc game, pretty big. We asked for painted only, because, you know, narrative fluff bunny stuff. Dude showed up with a bunch of second hand, mismatched, and mostly unpainted stuff. How am I the jerk for thinking he's a shmuck because he ignored our request for how to play? Three dudes show up with crisply painted armies, and homeboy dumps a box of eBay rejects on the table.

So, do you. Play how you want to play. But know that there are simply going to be some games you can't play because you won't paint.

my army is fully painted. I don't care what the opponent state of painting is, but if it is not fully painted I am taking the 10VP.

 Polonius wrote:


"I want to do my hobby, but I want to do it half assed" is such a strange hill for grown men to die on.

You're confusing [/i]your[i] hobby with mine.
MY hobby is playing games.
I'm very good at my hobby regardless of the amount of paint on any given model.

Karol wrote:
my army is fully painted. I don't care what the opponent state of painting is, but if it is not fully painted I am taking the 10VP.

Hardcore RAW guys: "unless GW says it, it's not a real rule"
Guy with Painted army: "Okay, so we start the game 10-0"
RAW guys: "Not like that"

 Polonius wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
A lot of this thread is really funny because its made to sound like those that want to play against another painted army are being "snobs"... But isnt demanding someone play against you and enjoy your unpainted army the definition of entitlment?

My time to actually play the game is pretty limited, so I really would rather play a game that looks good, against another painted army. It's possible my experiences with unpainted armies color my views, but it's not people with demanding jobs and homelives who don't paint their stuff. It's overwhelmingly people with part time jobs and no kids and I'm like... how is your time at that much of a premium?

Yeah, i get it 100%... I guess it's just weird because I never feel anyone is obligated to play me for any reason. Don't like playing against my specific list or faction? My paint job isn't up to your standard? Do you just think I look like a Dbag? That's all good because nobody has to play me for any reason whatsoever. So what's the big deal if i want to be able to take pictures of the game I'm playing and don't really want them to be immersion-breaking because the other force is grey?

 Polonius wrote:
The only thing more annoying than unpainted models is the ridiculous efforts people go through to avoid admitting they just can't be bothered. Maybe 20 years ago, when mini painting was somewhat arcane (and more models were one piece metals), it was different, but now we have colored primers, contrasts, high pigment layers, vivid washes, and a plethora of painting videos for every level of skill. I don't understand why you'd spend an hour or more building a single 100 plus part squad, and then not spend at least the same amount of time to throw a coat of primer, some base paint, and a wash.

"I want to do my hobby, but I want to do it half assed" is such a strange hill for grown men to die on.

Personally while I prefer painted models, I have no problem playing against someone in the process of painting their army or who just bought a new one and hasn't gotten to painting it yet. That said, I do mind constant excuses about why they can't paint. I hear people say they can't afford paint (but they can afford a 2K army), or they don't have the skill (there are so, so many products designed explicitly to make painting easy), or they don't have the time (but they do have time to build a 2K army and play with it every week).

If you don't want to paint, just own it instead of making excuses. Some people consider painted armies part of the experience and if you don't feel the same, it's better to be up-front about that than to pretend you want to paint but just can't.

(And to be clear, I am not talking about anyone with a disability that hinders painting, I mean the people who clearly have the time, money, and ability but actively choose not to)

 Polonius wrote:

Karol wrote:
my army is fully painted. I don't care what the opponent state of painting is, but if it is not fully painted I am taking the 10VP.

Hardcore RAW guys: "unless GW says it, it's not a real rule"
Guy with Painted army: "Okay, so we start the game 10-0"
RAW guys: "Not like that"

also this is the funniest thing ive seen several times

ccs wrote:

 Polonius wrote:


"I want to do my hobby, but I want to do it half assed" is such a strange hill for grown men to die on.

You're confusing [/i]your[i] hobby with mine.
MY hobby is playing games.
I'm very good at my hobby regardless of the amount of paint on any given model.

I mean, there's sort of limit to how good you can be at playing 40k now that most events have paint requirements, but that's fine. Again, you do you.

But I'm not confusing anything. I'm enjoying my hobby, and to the extent that who your hobby and mine intersect, I'm judging that. And yes, one of the things I factor in is if you've got a painted army, or are at least making progress on that.

If you're upset because I silently judge you, or prefer to play others, that's not because of my actions. My actions are pretty minimal, and basically saying, "oh, one of those guys." No, you're upset because deep down, you agree with me. If you really didn't see any social value in painting, than you simply wouldn't care. But you have to defend your ego against being reminded that you aren't living up to your own standards.

It's not me that's hurting you with judgment. It's yourself.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 catbarf wrote:
If you don't want to paint, just own it instead of making excuses. Some people consider painted armies part of the experience and if you don't feel the same, it's better to be up-front about that than to pretend you want to paint but just can't.

Hard agree. Somebody that just says "yup, I hate painting, I don't want to do it" is at least being honest with themselves, and by extension, me. I'd still really prefer they at least try, but in my mind trying to justify not painting is worse than just refusing to do it.

(And to be clear, I am not talking about anyone with a disability that hinders painting, I mean the people who clearly have the time, money, and ability but actively choose not to)

Worth pointing out as always.

 Polonius wrote:


I'm not forcing anybody to do anything. And being judgmental about people not painting isn't gatekeeping, it's just recognizing that some people are more complete hobbyists that others. Like, I have no problem with a person wearing an old t-shirt and gym shorts and not showering for a few days. that's they're god given right, and one I've indulged in a few times. But when I'm at a fine dining restaurant, I'm sitting next to Stinky McGee wearing a tattered "Big Johnson" t-shirt while I'm having a date with my wife, it kind of sucks, right? I'm not going to walk past two guys playing with unpainted armies and make fun of them, because that's weird and rude and bad.

There difference is that stuff like being clean, showering etc is stuff you have to do to be a normal human. Painting is not required to play the game. Saying that someone with an unpainted army is like someone who doesn't shower is a huge stretch.
also the painting requirement is a gate keeper. 10VP difference is huge, specialy when you are starting to play. It means that if you have an unpainted army you will always lose your games. It also adds cost to the game. even 4-5 basic colours, 2 brushes and a basecoat can sets someone back by 1-2 boxes. And when you are on a budget this means you are pushed back in getting a 2k army by 1-2 months. Not everyone is happy about the fact, that in order for other people to enjoy the game they have to spend their own money and wait to get a full army longer.

 catbarf wrote:
or they don't have the time (but they do have time to build a 2K army and play with it every week).

maybe the only hobby time they have is that one game per week. So they can either use it to paint (which isnt what theyre looking for in the hobby) or to play (which is what theyre looking for in the hobby)



i'll paint my models because i enjoy doing it (as long as its not hordes of highly detailed models like cultists, which i will usually leave airbrushed for a while) and i think its fine if everyone has different standards.

The problem i have is that some people judge others because they dislike painting. If you don't want to play against unpainted stuff, thats perfectly fine, just don't start the narrative of "if you really were a part of the hobby you'd have fully painted armies"

 catbarf wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
The only thing more annoying than unpainted models is the ridiculous efforts people go through to avoid admitting they just can't be bothered. Maybe 20 years ago, when mini painting was somewhat arcane (and more models were one piece metals), it was different, but now we have colored primers, contrasts, high pigment layers, vivid washes, and a plethora of painting videos for every level of skill. I don't understand why you'd spend an hour or more building a single 100 plus part squad, and then not spend at least the same amount of time to throw a coat of primer, some base paint, and a wash.

"I want to do my hobby, but I want to do it half assed" is such a strange hill for grown men to die on.

Personally while I prefer painted models, I have no problem playing against someone in the process of painting their army or who just bought a new one and hasn't gotten to painting it yet. That said, I do mind constant excuses about why they can't paint. I hear people say they can't afford paint (but they can afford a 2K army), or they don't have the skill (there are so, so many products designed explicitly to make painting easy), or they don't have the time (but they do have time to build a 2K army and play with it every week).

If you don't want to paint, just own it instead of making excuses. Some people consider painted armies part of the experience and if you don't feel the same, it's better to be up-front about that than to pretend you want to paint but just can't.

(And to be clear, I am not talking about anyone with a disability that hinders painting, I mean the people who clearly have the time, money, and ability but actively choose not to)

Personally I much prefer players saying they want all painted game if that’s what they really want, rather than something like points above.
40k just isn’t that for me at this point, and for tournaments I would do bare minimum tournament army. But, I can’t even sit that long so it isn’t so much a worry.
I do want the mental stimulation that table top games can have, and I find that very important. So that is a big part of the hobby.

Events and things I do find reasonable as well to put more restrictions in, the same way I think tournaments can be more strict on rule enforcement.

 Polonius wrote:

Karol wrote:
my army is fully painted. I don't care what the opponent state of painting is, but if it is not fully painted I am taking the 10VP.

Hardcore RAW guys: "unless GW says it, it's not a real rule"
Guy with Painted army: "Okay, so we start the game 10-0"
RAW guys: "Not like that"

Oh trust me, people painted their armies really fast. For most people it didn't even matter, those that played events had already painted army. Then there is people like me, who had painted armies because they bought second hand ones. Only people that had problems with it was new people. The store owner at the store I play loved the ruled.

The the flip side of things my AoS LL are based with grey, with one horse 2/3 painted in brown. And considering I have been playing the game for over a year, I do not doubt, I will not paint them ever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Maybe the only hobby time they have is that one game per week. So they can either use it to paint (which isnt what theyre looking for in the hobby) or to play (which is what theyre looking for in the hobby)

This. If someone can either spend 2 hours going to the store, then playing 1-2 games, and then go back home for 2 hours, on the weekend, there isn't much time left to paint. Unless someone stops playing and starts painting every weekend. But then why play w40k at all. Pick infinity or kill team, there is no I will be able to play the game in 9 months, because my army consists of 4 NDKs and 50 infantry models.

Karol wrote:

 Polonius wrote:


I'm not forcing anybody to do anything. And being judgmental about people not painting isn't gatekeeping, it's just recognizing that some people are more complete hobbyists that others. Like, I have no problem with a person wearing an old t-shirt and gym shorts and not showering for a few days. that's they're god given right, and one I've indulged in a few times. But when I'm at a fine dining restaurant, I'm sitting next to Stinky McGee wearing a tattered "Big Johnson" t-shirt while I'm having a date with my wife, it kind of sucks, right? I'm not going to walk past two guys playing with unpainted armies and make fun of them, because that's weird and rude and bad.

There difference is that stuff like being clean, showering etc is stuff you have to do to be a normal human. Painting is not required to play the game. Saying that someone with an unpainted army is like someone who doesn't shower is a huge stretch.
also the painting requirement is a gate keeper. 10VP difference is huge, specialy when you are starting to play. It means that if you have an unpainted army you will always lose your games. It also adds cost to the game. even 4-5 basic colours, 2 brushes and a basecoat can sets someone back by 1-2 boxes. And when you are on a budget this means you are pushed back in getting a 2k army by 1-2 months. Not everyone is happy about the fact, that in order for other people to enjoy the game they have to spend their own money and wait to get a full army longer.

So, for starters, I've been to enough Walmarts here in the deep south to know that grooming isn't exactly a requirement. Ditto gaming stores. You literally can walk into a most places in dirty clothes smelling like BO, and nobody is gonnna stop you. The fact that there are places with dress codes and the like is somewhat uncommon. But when youre in such a place, maybe try to fit in?

Gatekeeping is preventing people from enjoying the hobby. I want people to enjoy the hobby. It's an expensive, time consuming hobby, so maybe i don't feel bad somebody that just spend a cool grand on plastic has to buy a spray can and a few cans of paint.

AS for the time aspect, that's why I'm all a bout making progress. My beef isn't with new guys, it's with people that just don't bother.

VladimirHerzog wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
or they don't have the time (but they do have time to build a 2K army and play with it every week).

maybe the only hobby time they have is that one game per week. So they can either use it to paint (which isnt what theyre looking for in the hobby) or to play (which is what theyre looking for in the hobby)

I think if there is a case where a person reliable has free time during store hours to play a game a week, but literally zero other free time, I will allow it. Why? Because that will never happen.

i'll paint my models because i enjoy doing it (as long as its not hordes of highly detailed models like cultists, which i will usually leave airbrushed for a while) and i think its fine if everyone has different standards.

The problem i have is that some people judge others because they dislike painting. If you don't want to play against unpainted stuff, thats perfectly fine, just don't start the narrative of "if you really were a part of the hobby you'd have fully painted armies"

Oh, it's big hobby. the people that played Dawn of War and read some lore articles are part of the hobby, so I'm not here to "no true scotsman" you.

But of course I can judge. Why can't I? If you don't paint your models, and I sniff and go, "that guy? he doesn't paint his army" where's the lie? I'm not calling you history's greatest monster, just a person that chooses not to paint your models. Again, if YOU felt 100% comfortable with not painting, your reaction to my judgment would be a shrug. But you don't like when people remind you that your isn't painted, because, again, YOU attach a moral weight to it.

Karol wrote:

 Polonius wrote:


I'm not forcing anybody to do anything. And being judgmental about people not painting isn't gatekeeping, it's just recognizing that some people are more complete hobbyists that others. Like, I have no problem with a person wearing an old t-shirt and gym shorts and not showering for a few days. that's they're god given right, and one I've indulged in a few times. But when I'm at a fine dining restaurant, I'm sitting next to Stinky McGee wearing a tattered "Big Johnson" t-shirt while I'm having a date with my wife, it kind of sucks, right? I'm not going to walk past two guys playing with unpainted armies and make fun of them, because that's weird and rude and bad.

There difference is that stuff like being clean, showering etc is stuff you have to do to be a normal human. Painting is not required to play the game. Saying that someone with an unpainted army is like someone who doesn't shower is a huge stretch.
also the painting requirement is a gate keeper. 10VP difference is huge, specialy when you are starting to play. It means that if you have an unpainted army you will always lose your games. It also adds cost to the game. even 4-5 basic colours, 2 brushes and a basecoat can sets someone back by 1-2 boxes. And when you are on a budget this means you are pushed back in getting a 2k army by 1-2 months. Not everyone is happy about the fact, that in order for other people to enjoy the game they have to spend their own money and wait to get a full army longer.

Dont all your rules apply to the shower guys as well?
1. You are gatekeeping what it means to be a normal human
2. You are adding a cost barrier to being a normal human that will set someone back
3. Not everyone is happy about the fact that in order for other people to enjoy their company they have spend money to shower and take longer to get ready

Yeah, allegations of gatekeeping are a bigger deal in fandoms, where basically it doesn't matter if you've seen one star wars movie or read every scrap of lore, anybody can be a star wars fan. If you like it, you like.

Actually doing a hobby though, there are simply levels. I'm not a great painter or highly skilled player or dedicated loremaster, and that's okay. I respect the people that have the skills or dedication that I don't. Likewise, at least my stuff is painted, and I feel a little bit better than those without it. the human compulsion to seek our categories and hierarchies isn't our most noble trait, but it's hard to shake.

If said I was a snowboarding fan, and people gave me crap about now knowing enough about snowboarding to say I like it, that's gatekeeping. OTOH, since I"m a fat, out of shape middle aged man who lives in the deep south who has never actually, you know, snowboarded, it's not exactly gatekeeping to be skeptical of claims that I'm just as much a snowboarder as Olympic athletes

 Polonius wrote:


But of course I can judge. Why can't I? If you don't paint your models, and I sniff and go, "that guy? he doesn't paint his army" where's the lie? I'm not calling you history's greatest monster, just a person that chooses not to paint your models. Again, if YOU felt 100% comfortable with not painting, your reaction to my judgment would be a shrug. But you don't like when people remind you that your isn't painted, because, again, YOU attach a moral weight to it.

ok i didnt explain myself properly. You can judge me, just silently, be respectful about it is what i mean.

I judge everyone's paintjobs internally because i'm a painter first so that comes naturally. But i'm not gonna start telling people that they paintjobs are bad (even if i think they are). It's all about being polite.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Polonius wrote:


But of course I can judge. Why can't I? If you don't paint your models, and I sniff and go, "that guy? he doesn't paint his army" where's the lie? I'm not calling you history's greatest monster, just a person that chooses not to paint your models. Again, if YOU felt 100% comfortable with not painting, your reaction to my judgment would be a shrug. But you don't like when people remind you that your isn't painted, because, again, YOU attach a moral weight to it.

ok i didnt explain myself properly. You can judge me, just silently, be respectful about it is what i mean.

I judge everyone's paintjobs internally because i'm a painter first so that comes naturally. But i'm not gonna start telling people that they paintjobs are bad (even if i think they are). It's all about being polite.

Of course. And aside from some knee jerk reactions to really poor paint schemes or technique, I really do try to be positive about other people's paint schemes. for me, painting isn't about quality, it's about making the effort. Because again, even a poorly painted army is better to play against than an unpainted army.

I try to paint my minis if I have time, but being a dad and a student with a full time job, I don't get the luxury every time. My Custodes are fully painted, my IG are, but my new BA primaris force is grey. And I will honestly question the priorities of anyone who tells me I can't play with grey plastic.

I'll rarely put down anything unpainted but getting soft in my old age with I (mostly) wont judge folks that do