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I really really really like the Khador look.

They are jumping the timelone. IKRPG:Requiem takes place 5 years after the Infernal invasion. I believe MKIV takes place 5ish years after that

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Are they jumping the timeline forward to some degree? All the firearms look much more advanced than the earlier edition stuff, and the Cygnar guys have railguns now.

Yup. Things take place a decade or so after the Infernal apocalypse.

That's pretty cool. I'm eager to see the new stuff coming down the line, I'm liking the look of the Storm Legion and Khador has always been the faction that pulled my attention most, and the Shock Troops concepts look good.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Are they jumping the timeline forward to some degree? All the firearms look much more advanced than the earlier edition stuff, and the Cygnar guys have railguns now.

Bout 10-15 years.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
And I have a different idea of value. I’ve never bought any MCP minis, but plenty of CMON minis.

To this day, HATE will be a constant reminder of how extremely cheap yet ultra high quality TT minies could be. Best purchase I've ever done?


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 LunarSol wrote:

Khador starter contents. Shocktroopers are concept art:

Spoiler:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Weird they duplicated the standard sculpt and nothing else. Particularly since we've seen a second standard bearer render

The soldier pointing his gun next to the standard on the left seem to be duplicated on the right, with just a different head.
What's up with the faxmachine quality on that picture btw?

 (HN) wrote:

What's up with the faxmachine quality on that picture btw?

Not sure, I stole it off Facebook. The version in the article is a little clearer, but I suspect it was thrown together pretty quick since the solicitation was kind of confusing and this answers a lot of questions.

https://home.privateerpress.com/2022/08/18/winter-korps-core-army-box-breakdown/

 kodos wrote:

the "value" is, what do I need to play the game, rather than what does the individual model cost

and the usual value of a force to play, outside the GW bubble, is 200-300€, 50-100€ for Skirmish games, so als long as the game is around those numbers it is ok

That it's a very warped idea of value and one companies are very happy to see in players. Game size or point values are an abstract that the desiners decide arbitrarily, it shouldn't be a key factor in the price of physical product.

Do you think it's ok if the marketing department mails the designers with memos like "Make this new model 60pts instead of 40 so that we can sell it for 20$ instead of 15"? No, just no.

A model is a model is a model. I buy a model not it's point value that the company pull out of their hats and change at whim. If I need a unit of blunderbuss armed cossacks and one company sells them for 100$ a box but competition sells similar cossacks for 50$ a box I am not going to say the first company price is good because their cossacks cost more points per model in their game.

Guess which cossacks I'm going to buy and use.

Ok, so you don't understand the difference between army and model (as it does not matter what the points of the individual are)

Than we need to go back to the basics

Producing a single plastic model costs the same no matter if you need 2 or 20 of them, but because you are just going to sell 1/10 of models if 2 is what people need, those 2 need to be more expensive to cover the cost

At the same time people expect to have 2 impressive and different looking models because there are only 2 and duplicates are a no-go

With R&F models, were you need 100, duplicates and less details are not a problem

But if you go the way of model pricing instead of army pricing, you end up with GW prices

Every model is as detailed as possible and you get 10 different in a 10 model box with the Skirmish tax added, but it is the players fault that you need more of them to play and an amy cost 800-1000€ instead of 200

A model is a model and always need to be the same no matter if it is a Hero you buy once or a Rank and File grunt were you need a 100 and you don't care what the army costs just individual model is important
GW says thanks for the money

And yet, if I am looking for, let's say, 5 undead cavalry or 10 ninja elves with bows, I compare prices and quality of what the market offers. I would have no problem with buying them from PP if they were competitive, but apparently other companies can and do produce these models much cheaper. Can't wait for companies to release mass games where you needs millions of models, their price per piece should be insane

The thing is, with reasonable prices (like the ones other game companies apparently can work on) you get more players willing to buy these armies, so even if everyone buys fewer there are just more buyers you can profit from.

The conclusion is I found PP prices and quality not competitive and that's why for example my Bane Riders and Nyss Hunters look like that:
https://lormahordes.freeforums.net/thread/1801/bane-riders-less-half-price
https://lormahordes.freeforums.net/thread/9637/idoneth-reavers-warmachine

That's what you get if your company strategy is "Let's test the market by releasing overpriced products that have exisiting substitutes of better quality and much lower prices" or "Let's test the market for how many suckers our playerbase has by releasing starter sets more expensive than any other company"

(Btw, boxes, like for example Blood Bowl teams or War Cry bands, or any other game/company starter sets, by your logic, should cost like 3 times more than they do, because they are complete "armies" in their systems...but guess what you get if they are priced reasonably? Customers!)

Fantasywelt in Germany lists the new WM Starter Sets for 179,99 € (original is 199,99 €) - delivered in November.

https://www.fantasywelt.de/Cygnar-Storm-Legion-Core-Army-Starter-EN
https://www.fantasywelt.de/Orgoth-Sea-Raiders-Core-Army-Starter-EN

WIth that Quality and those prices, this game will be not very successful...

Taking it more generically, that Khador box is $200, which will probably be £180 RRP in the UK and you get:

17 regular infantry
3 large infantry
2 heroes
2 jacks

2 x £90 RRP Adeptus Mechanicus combat patrol gets you:

20 regular infantry
6 large infantry
2 heroes
2 vehicles

When you’re trying to break into the market again and GW prices for army boxes are better value, you’ve got a pricing problem

 LunarSol wrote:

Cyel wrote:

 Souleater wrote:
How should we account for the extra cost that the app, artwork, fiction writers, etc might add to the model costs?

By comparing prices per model with other companies that also have a game with an app and artwork etc.

For example A Song of Ice and Fire.

I mean, that's a horrible comparison. Those models are good enough to get the job done, but.... economical is a kind way of putting it.

To be fair for a rank and file wargame Song is pretty economical. Individual boxes are on the pricer side but you're 'only' looking at about £130-£170 to get a standard sized 40pt army.

you are not really comparing apples to apples though

I just looked at the US webstore for GW-the admech combat patrol box is
.10 basic infantry
.3 heavy infantry
.1 hero
.1vehicle
price-$150

For an additional $50 you get all the parts to build a complete army for WM/H MKIV

Additionally, you are also missing the fact that the 2 war jacks come with all the parts to make something like 64 combinations. also, the 2 new war jack kits for MKIV are effectively every variant of heavy war jack in the new edition. it would be like getting 2 leman russ kits with all the parts to build 2 of everything in the guard line.

Don't misunderstand when i make this comparison. i applaud the move to modular parts to reduce sku bloat and 3d printing for supply/shipping issues. i think far to much concern in this topic has been about model quality. as somebody with access to multiple people with 3d printers and loads of printed models and terrain running around our FLGS the media is not the problem. i care more about the beta rules and having seen video batreps of people play testing it.... it is trash, it takes away the game mechanics i enjoy about WM/H and the reason why our group will continue to play MKIII instead.

That’s the US - the British market doesn’t give a hoot what the combat patrol costs in America. In the UK by any reasonable comparison, the new warmachine army box is more expensive than GW.

That’s ignoring the quality of the models themselves. The comparison gets even worse if you do that!

Cyel wrote:
And yet, if I am looking for, let's say, 5 undead cavalry or 10 ninja elves with bows, I compare prices and quality of what the market offers.

of course, and if you look for an army to play the game, comparing prices of individual models does not help

If you just want 5 models with an AK, you are looking for something different than if you want an "army" to play Infinity

hence if a 200€ Army Box from one company gets you a playable army, were the 200€ Army Box from another company does not because you need 2 of them, it does not matter if the individual model is less expensive as the overall money you need to spend to play the game is less

So pp makes army where single 28mm infantry model is whole legal army and charges 150 bucks it's fine?

As I said, that's the kind of "logic" what companies love to see, because they can push higher prices on tge same product by having some people believe this philisophy.

And still some of them miraculously don't. Warcry starter or Asoiaf starters (or Blood bowl starter/ teams etc.) can have the " playable army" for at least 1/4 of the price of a WM starter and I found it honestly impossible to find a comparable starter product that offers so little for so much money. But hey, PP could have made the game size even smaller and sell the same models for 300$ a starter, yeah ?

Not to mention players who are also collectors and hobbyists (like myself) and who just get a fraction of the number of toys to convert and paint for the price.

Biggest killer is the conversion rate. $200 in old money was what? £120ish to £140ish quid pre-brexit?

Far more reasonable.

£180 is ridiculous.

tneva82 wrote:
So pp makes army where single 28mm infantry model is whole legal army and charges 150 bucks it's fine?

Depends on how good the game behind it is. If that one model gets me dozen of games that are compelling enough to keep me playing with just that one model... good on them I guess. I'd be hard pressed to see such a design masterpiece, but if the game is really that good, then its worth supporting its development.

I hope you guys never look into Infintiy or MCP, the prices for individual models would crush you

and if the game works with single 28mm models and you never need to buy anything else, be it so

and I don't know why the collectors market need to be important for a company updating their game
PP is making a game and selling models to be used for it
this is not GW who sells collectors models and wrote a game so you can play with them if you want to

Cyel wrote:
The conclusion is I found PP prices and quality not competitive and that's why for example my Bane Riders and Nyss Hunters look like that:
https://lormahordes.freeforums.net/thread/1801/bane-riders-less-half-price
https://lormahordes.freeforums.net/thread/9637/idoneth-reavers-warmachine

Made me spew my coffee.
I remembered PP prices to be high, but I didn't remember them to be literally higher than GW...
What the actual f?

It's especially stupid when you consider that the TT wargaming industry is a pretty special one, where the dominant player has inflated their prices so much that it created a massive gap anyone willing to offer reasonable price could easily fill.
PP is so out of touch it actually hurts.


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 aphyon wrote:
For an additional $50 you get all the parts to build a complete army for WM/H MKIV

Not really, unless you also concider a 500pt 40k army a "full army", at which point that combat partol could fit the bill too.

 aphyon wrote:
Additionally, you are also missing the fact that the 2 war jacks come with all the parts to make something like 64 combinations. also, the 2 new war jack kits for MKIV are effectively every variant of heavy war jack in the new edition. it would be like getting 2 leman russ kits with all the parts to build 2 of everything in the guard line.

I mean... yes you are right, but you seem to forget that GW kits are actually multipose and coem with a variety of different wargear too while the only one that have it are the jacks here.
I give enough gak to GW when they downgrade their stuff so simple monopose stuff so I'll do the same and point out that not only everything from PP is monopose, but it's also resin, which makes it basically impossible to convert in anyway.

 aphyon wrote:
Don't misunderstand when i make this comparison. i applaud the move to modular parts to reduce sku bloat and 3d printing for supply/shipping issues. i think far to much concern in this topic has been about model quality. as somebody with access to multiple people with 3d printers and loads of printed models and terrain running around our FLGS the media is not the problem. i care more about the beta rules and having seen video batreps of people play testing it.... it is trash, it takes away the game mechanics i enjoy about WM/H and the reason why our group will continue to play MKIII instead.

That I can agree with. PP got fooled into following GW in hits """"streamlining"""" effort (ie removing core strategical part of the game and then having to overbload your game in order to try to emulate what you just removed) by doing silly stuff like "de-emphasizing positioning"... It's just a bad idea.
Instead of trying to be a wargame they should have dialed back a bit the game into a proper skirmish game it was supposed to be, and make sure it has all the tactical depth it should.

 kodos wrote:
I hope you guys never look into Infintiy or MCP, the prices for individual models would crush you

and if the game works with single 28mm models and you never need to buy anything else, be it so

and I don't know why the collectors market need to be important for a company updating their game
PP is making a game and selling models to be used for it
this is not GW who sells collectors models and wrote a game so you can play with them if you want to

I’ve never played Infinity, but a glance at Weyland games tells me there’s a 2 player starter with 14 minis and other ancillary bits for under £100. You could buy a 3rd faction, have roughly the same number of models and be at a comparable price to a 1 player “starter” for warmachine.

A couple of friends can walk into the store, drop £50 each and get a game on. Asking them to drop £360 between them is an entirely different kettle of fish. Literally no other gaming company in the world asks a customer for that kind of buyin to play a game

UK side PP have often been on the expensive side. The reason they got away with it was because you needed fewer models. Thralls might need 2-3 boxes to make a full squad whilst the PP boxed set was one box and you're done.

That was, UK side, why PP was "cheaper". Same reason Infinity is cheaper than 40K. It wasn't the outright price alone it was that you just needed WAY fewer models to both get started and get an army.

Sure, but then they also had battle boxes of 2 jacks and a caster for like £30/35 quid. Pressgangers sold those by the truckload. That box, a box of infantry, say another £30 and a rule book and you were in the ballpark for a nice starting list to try the game. Not having a low cost starter is simply insane

Mk3 2-player starters were excellent value. Much more interesting intro games than pure battlegroups.

MaxT wrote:
Sure, but then they also had battle boxes of 2 jacks and a caster for like £30/35 quid. Pressgangers sold those by the truckload. That box, a box of infantry, say another £30 and a rule book and you were in the ballpark for a nice starting list to try the game. Not having a low cost starter is simply insane

I'd definitely love to see a lower cost starter, but I don't think Battle Boxes really do the job anymore. In Mk2 they were far ahead of the curve, but by Mk3 most games had better introductions. The main problem is that they were great for demos, but very little else. They didn't get you much game beyond that demo and most people running demos had models for new players to play with without purchase. PP desperately needed a more meaningful introduction to the game, but had at that point, lost all focus on anything beyond the tournament meta.

I'd love to see the GenCon battleboxes become an ongoing thing, because while being nominally similar to the old starters, they have significantly more game in them to work with for new players. That's, honestly, the most exciting thing for me about all these products, but I would definitely love to see a cheaper entry point for sure.

So it's $200 for a starterset for 1 player (and you still need to expand on that to reach the game's golden standard points cost, or is that covered?) and you get 24 models in it?

That doesn't seem like an interesting value preposition at all I'm afraid.

MaxT wrote:
Sure, but then they also had battle boxes of 2 jacks and a caster for like £30/35 quid. Pressgangers sold those by the truckload. That box, a box of infantry, say another £30 and a rule book and you were in the ballpark for a nice starting list to try the game. Not having a low cost starter is simply insane

Yep and that's just the kind of box you need. I'd say you can go up to £50 in the UK market and be ok. You'll mostly lose out on those totally new to wargaming, but its still fairly comfortable. Hitting £100 or greater you are going to have a hard sell. Yes GW has done it with their own duel army sets, and with games like Adepticus Titanicus; but I'd wager the vast majority of those buying into those sets are already die-hard wargamers and likely already GW customers. They are well past the entry threshold. Plus games like AT have decades of marketing and cross marketing behind them.

Warmachine hasn't had any strong marketing in years (honestly since MK3 and the end of the PG system). My greatest worry with this is that PP will come up with a great MK4 rules and product setup and then trip at the finish line because they set such a high entry cost to keep their SKU down. Heck I'd wager even retail shops are cautious of such high priced gateway products. That's a lot of money to tie up in entry products.

Those £35 battleboxes are just the kind of thing they should be aiming for again. Heck with rules on app/online strip all the rules material out and just have models; but keep that nice sweet low entry cost to get people buying; then hit them with the £100 boxed sets

MaxT wrote:
Sure, but then they also had battle boxes of 2 jacks and a caster for like £30/35 quid. Pressgangers sold those by the truckload. That box, a box of infantry, say another £30 and a rule book and you were in the ballpark for a nice starting list to try the game. Not having a low cost starter is simply insane

Quoted for truth.

I also think that level of the game (brawl Machine or MKI) is also a better experience at a lower entry point to what GW offered.

I wonder of PP will see the popularity of the limited release battlegroups they did at GenCon, and make them a permanent thing.