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 Shas'O Ky'husa wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Personally I'd stop adding factions. There are far too many as it is and it's only adding bloat and making everyone's codexes suffer. What i would do is spend an edition fleshing out existing stuff and getting everyone up to snuff, then think about more new factions in 11th.

This. Squats are inevitable I guess but no new factions. And stop giving each color of space marines its own book FFS.

The big question here is if there are any colours left that don't have their own book yet. We have black, blue, grey, red, green, black again, white, silver, green again, gold, even more black, and yellow (with me probably missing some) but where are pink, orange, purple, polka dots, and all those other options?

PenitentJake wrote:
Some really good thoughts in here, and I want to reply to everyone, but it's late so I'm going to try and keep it general.

Over on B&C there was some talk about an exodite rumour, and I think Valrak was involved? But the rumour was a vague one- it didn't specify 9th or 10th, and it didn't specify whether it was an army with a stand alone dex or just a kit or two.

I've also thought that development of Corsairs and Kroot for KT were intended as foundations for further development. I would not be surprised to see both Corsair and Kroot offerings expanded, even if they don't become full dexes.

Another collection that could easily be assembled into a dex from largely existing models is Agents of the Imperium- we'll have inquisitors, assassins, rogue traders, and navy. If they added 3-4 kits to various Agent ranges, they could really build something cool.

With 10e around the corner and 2 new armies(we and squats) coming dlready plus daemon/ig codexes safe to say army slots for 9e are filled. Gw usually doesn't release codexes right before new ed so march exodides can be ruled out. End of edition is supplement time.

tneva82 wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
Some really good thoughts in here, and I want to reply to everyone, but it's late so I'm going to try and keep it general.

Over on B&C there was some talk about an exodite rumour, and I think Valrak was involved? But the rumour was a vague one- it didn't specify 9th or 10th, and it didn't specify whether it was an army with a stand alone dex or just a kit or two.

I've also thought that development of Corsairs and Kroot for KT were intended as foundations for further development. I would not be surprised to see both Corsair and Kroot offerings expanded, even if they don't become full dexes.

Another collection that could easily be assembled into a dex from largely existing models is Agents of the Imperium- we'll have inquisitors, assassins, rogue traders, and navy. If they added 3-4 kits to various Agent ranges, they could really build something cool.

With 10e around the corner and 2 new armies(we and squats) coming dlready plus daemon/ig codexes safe to say army slots for 9e are filled. Gw usually doesn't release codexes right before new ed so march exodides can be ruled out. End of edition is supplement time.

Off topic, just notice you are 21k posts, i've never seen that title before and I've been here for a long time lol.

 Dolnikan wrote:
but where are pink, orange, purple, polka dots, and all those other options?

Emperor's Children, come on now.

A new "Rainbow Marine" inclusive faction that accepts former loyal and heretic Astartes into their ranks and fights solely for Astartes Supremacy over the Galaxy... Their "legion" simbol yould be a Unicorn or a Bear.

PD: Rainbow marines core comes from the 2 lost legions that were in fact exiled to the intergalactic void for "****" and have now returned to take the Galaxy to the pre Heresy Situation.

Instead of adding new factions, 40k needs existing factions to be merged together.


Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch, Black Templars

Knights, Chaos Knights

Chaos Space Marines, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, (World Eaters)

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Instead of adding new factions, 40k needs existing factions to be merged together.


Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch, Black Templars

Knights, Chaos Knights

Chaos Space Marines, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, (World Eaters)

...no.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Instead of adding new factions, 40k needs existing factions to be merged together.


Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch, Black Templars

Knights, Chaos Knights

Chaos Space Marines, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, (World Eaters)

Better to Reduce it to "codex adeptus astartes" and "codex Npc" withva hard cap of 100 dataaheets and 10 sub factionsceach.

I do think that we need to reduce the amount of codexes, and a lot of factions can just be subfactions, like the Astartes thing earlier. I think most of chaos could fit within one space marine codex, and I feel the divide between daemons and mortals is odd.

It seems that OG and numarines will be split. Good! I will never own a numarine, and am happy for a hard fork.

About new factions, I wish GW would do the core factions well first, before introducing more opportunities to eff things up, and do things poorly...

I think all codexes should be treated the same as the Guard Codex. You get one book, and sub factions are just a different paint scheme, set of strats, and relics. Remove all Sub Faction specific bonuses. Get rid of red thirst, Templar Vows, Sons of the Lion, all of it.

All sub factions get access to all units in the dex, and they just get to pick and choose what chapter buffs they get at army creation. So you can have All Red Space Marines that can run Wulfen with Red Thirst.

Also, COMPLETELY TRASH DOCTRINES.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Instead of adding new factions, 40k needs existing factions to be merged together.


Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Deathwatch, Black Templars

Knights, Chaos Knights

Chaos Space Marines, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, (World Eaters)

...no.

Why? Separation of the Legions was one of the worst things to happen. The inconsistency between rules is honestly mind blowing.

Because Space Wolves should play differently to Blood Angels. Iron Warriors should play differently to Night Lords.

The units and weapons which the player includes in their army, and the platstyle they adopt would make different colours of Marines play differently.

An Iron Priest having to take an ice pistol instead of standard Techmarine gear does not a meaningful difference make.

I disagree. They all follow to varying extent, the codex astartes. Some more, some less, but they all train in Bolters, Blade, and Shock assault tactics. No chapter has no idea how to use a thunder hammer or drop pod for instance. All know the basic tenets of team and squad based tactical combat strategy. Some dabble in warp craft, some forbid it. But they all know what it is, and how to protect against it/defeat it.
Space Wolves are to Astartes as DKoK are to the Guard. They have a very silly and iconic look, that is completely foolish. Really, you're riding horses/Wolves into combat? What is this, the Czech cavalry charges of WW2 against German Tanks?

In my dumb and wrong opinion, Space Wolves don't exist. They are dumb, silly, and the start of all the worst parts about Nu40k lore. It's a Willy Wonka Army. It's completely silly and pointless. and completely makes a mockery of what semblance of lore actually remains.

They have become so sperated from the pack at this point they should be a stand alone faction, ala GK. No one else gets the weapons they use, no one else can run the units they use. Just make them a seperate faction ala GK and make everyone else just SPACE MARINE CODEX

The only problems I have with marines are

1) Having every legion as its own book and army with unique models means 40K has a lot of armies, many of which run with exceptionally similar styles and themes.

Yes they've grown apart over time, but it means there's a lot of model releases that are just "marines" and to me it eats into the creativity and potential creativity of the 40K setting and team.

2) Primaris being released alongside marines within the same army. I'd kind of wish that Primaris had either been a separate legion of their own or had simply replaced the models and were the next "version" of marines in style and sculpt.

Having them alongside in the same armies feels very rough and clunky. Because you've got 1 army which kind of has mirror options visually, thematically and in stats alongside each other.

It's "messy" and kind of feels like its a really slow burn way to "remove" classic marines at some stage. Or at least was hoped to be and then GW realised that was nuts marketing and abandoned it and now you've got two armies smushed together.






Still we've had some pretty epic updates as of late to Xenos armies, even Eldar have had some love.

The Scrimbo Bimblo

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Because Space Wolves should play differently to Blood Angels. Iron Warriors should play differently to Night Lords.

That doesn't mean needing separate codices and supplements.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Because Space Wolves should play differently to Blood Angels. Iron Warriors should play differently to Night Lords.

That's true, but it's also true of damn near every faction in the game. Saim-Hann should play differently to Iyanden. Speed Freeks should play differently to Snakebites, Tallarn should play differently to Mordian should play differently to Steel Legion, every Hive Fleet should play differently to every other Hive Fleet and to earlier versions of itself due to the hyperevolution...if everyone else can get by with a single codex (plus or minus a supplement or two), why do Space Marines "need" full codices for each Chapter/Legion?

.if everyone else can get by with a single codex (plus or minus a supplement or two), why do Space Marines "need" full codices for each Chapter/Legion?

More interesting to people playing the game. It is like dudes who do football earn more money then those that do curling


Automatically Appended Next Post:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Because Space Wolves should play differently to Blood Angels. Iron Warriors should play differently to Night Lords.

That doesn't mean needing separate codices and supplements.

It does with the way GW writes rules. If all marines were to be in a single book, the space marine codex would have 600 pages with 200 of them being art. But yeah in general it would be better if a space wolves or blood angles player could just play with a blood angle or SW codex, and not be tied to a space marine codex just in case GW decides to add new primaris models half in to an edition.

 waefre_1 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Because Space Wolves should play differently to Blood Angels. Iron Warriors should play differently to Night Lords.

That's true, but it's also true of damn near every faction in the game. Saim-Hann should play differently to Iyanden. Speed Freeks should play differently to Snakebites, Tallarn should play differently to Mordian should play differently to Steel Legion, every Hive Fleet should play differently to every other Hive Fleet and to earlier versions of itself due to the hyperevolution...if everyone else can get by with a single codex (plus or minus a supplement or two), why do Space Marines "need" full codices for each Chapter/Legion?

The problem here is that the old school subfactions(which DA, BA, and Space Wolves, and even Ultramarines if we go old school) have all legion specific units. If all get access to all then we have a codex with 120+ datasheets which is an unfathomable amount of datasheets. Just to make sense of it there would need to be a huge culling of the lines with old datasheets being sunsetted before combining the books.

Most of the subfactions you mention have not had a lot of special case units made for them which makes it easy for them to remain in their respective books. Even if GW did try to branch out in previous editions with Iyanden.

To be fair a lot of the older lines could do with a proper culling.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Because Space Wolves should play differently to Blood Angels. Iron Warriors should play differently to Night Lords.

I agree 100%...

As long as Bloody Rose and OoOML also continue to play differently, as well as the Cult of the Four Armed Emperor and the Pauper Princes... etc.

And I think that's where the problem comes in, because a lot of folks who dislike the current game due to its cognitive load feel like taking away subfaction distinctions is a good step to getting there.

But now that we've ALL got it, if anyone loses it, then EVERYONE should lose it.

Personally, I'd prefer to see subfaction rules remain... But that's just personal preference.

Dark Mechanicum and Traitor Guard would be cool, as well as of course the Emperor's Children which is bound to come sooner or later. That being said, I would much rather GW focus on two things before moving on to anything new:

1. Replacing all old models, especially resin and metal ones, with new, plastic models.
2. Creating accessory and weapons packs for a variety of different factions. The big Space Marine chapters get accessories for both Firstborn and Primaris, while other factions hardly get any at all. Also, weapons sprues and equipment sprues (e.g., jump packs) could allow GW to keep the 'no model, no rule' policy while also allowing players to keep all of their old loadouts.

I think GW needs to dedicate a significant amount of time and energy to fully supporting the factions and the units we have now rather than putting out new factions while leaving the old ones only partially supported.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 waefre_1 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Because Space Wolves should play differently to Blood Angels. Iron Warriors should play differently to Night Lords.

That's true, but it's also true of damn near every faction in the game. Saim-Hann should play differently to Iyanden. Speed Freeks should play differently to Snakebites, Tallarn should play differently to Mordian should play differently to Steel Legion, every Hive Fleet should play differently to every other Hive Fleet and to earlier versions of itself due to the hyperevolution...if everyone else can get by with a single codex (plus or minus a supplement or two), why do Space Marines "need" full codices for each Chapter/Legion?

The problem here is that the old school subfactions(which DA, BA, and Space Wolves, and even Ultramarines if we go old school) have all legion specific units. If all get access to all then we have a codex with 120+ datasheets which is an unfathomable amount of datasheets. Just to make sense of it there would need to be a huge culling of the lines with old datasheets being sunsetted before combining the books.

Most of the subfactions you mention have not had a lot of special case units made for them which makes it easy for them to remain in their respective books. Even if GW did try to branch out in previous editions with Iyanden.

To be fair a lot of the older lines could do with a proper culling.

I hate to be the one to tell you this, but not everything needs a separate unit entry. That's how we ended up with 3 Land Raiders instead of just one entry with "Pick your guns".

Most variant Chapter-specific units either aren't meaningfully different, have no reason to be Chapter-locked to begin with, or only exist in their current form in order to make [colour] Marines more different from generic.

 waefre_1 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Because Space Wolves should play differently to Blood Angels. Iron Warriors should play differently to Night Lords.

That's true, but it's also true of damn near every faction in the game. Saim-Hann should play differently to Iyanden. Speed Freeks should play differently to Snakebites, Tallarn should play differently to Mordian should play differently to Steel Legion, every Hive Fleet should play differently to every other Hive Fleet and to earlier versions of itself due to the hyperevolution...if everyone else can get by with a single codex (plus or minus a supplement or two), why do Space Marines "need" full codices for each Chapter/Legion?

Because Astartes need to be a snowflake treatment or else people might realise that tjey are quite irrelevant in the setting even doe the are the franchise poster boys.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
That doesn't mean needing separate codices and supplements.

What you said made it sound as there should be one Marine list and one Chaos list and that's it. No way to differentiate between any Chapter/Legion.

If this is not what you meant, then fine, but there are a bunch of extreme consolidationists here who would see 40k turned to a permanent state of grey, with any and all colour exorcised in the pursuit of streamlining.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
That doesn't mean needing separate codices and supplements.

What you said made it sound as there should be one Marine list and one Chaos list and that's it. No way to differentiate between any Chapter/Legion.

If this is not what you meant, then fine, but there are a bunch of extreme consolidationists here who would see 40k turned to a permanent state of grey, with any and all colour exorcised in the pursuit of streamlining.

There SHOULD be one Marine list. If you consolidate the appropriate profiles and make certain things generic, it would legit be smooth.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
That doesn't mean needing separate codices and supplements.

What you said made it sound as there should be one Marine list and one Chaos list and that's it. No way to differentiate between any Chapter/Legion.

If this is not what you meant, then fine, but there are a bunch of extreme consolidationists here who would see 40k turned to a permanent state of grey, with any and all colour exorcised in the pursuit of streamlining.

Nah. You can keep colors. Just there isn't much point in pretending Grey Hunters aren't tactical squads, Deathwing Kinghts aren't just terminators with stormshields and Crusader squads aren't some weird blender of scouts, tacticals and assault squads.
There's no benefit from differentiating this level of trivia at this level. Most of its cultural stuff that doesn't matter on the table.

It'd be like mandating that the Welsh and Scottish Rugby teams have one player dressed differently, because somehow that 'shows their nationality.'

Traitor Guard would be nice.

Also, Chaos Necrons.