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**Aecus Decimus**

A couple of your points were covered in my reply to BobtheInquisitor so I'll skip them here.

McDougall Designs wrote:
meaningless fluff? I'm assuming that actually wanting to grow the hobby and bring new blood (while simultaneously advertising my webstore) in is meaningless?

From the point of view of the customer of an online store, yes. I'm not at your store to read a blog, I'm there to purchase a product. All I care about is that I pay the lowest price and it arrives at my house on schedule with no issues. Content creation for the sake of content creation is a valid thing but that's an entirely separate business. What you're talking about is labor-intensive advertising, not added value for the customer.

Like I said earlier, actions speak louder than words. It doesn't matter how much people talk about things like "shop local", "build the community", etc, the reality is that Amazon/Walmart/etc are making billions by doing exactly what I described: reliable delivery of a product at the lowest price. Customers are voting with their wallets and saying that is what they want.

it's 20 minutes of extra book keeping, and perfectly fine margins. But I also can't offer every single sprue currently in production immediately. That's frankly an unfeasible ask.

It's 20 minutes now, but remember that you're here asking for help because your business is struggling to get customers. It won't be 20 minutes when you have enough customer volume to support a successful business. You really have to be careful with scaling issues and remember that your goal is much higher sales volume than what you have now.

two facettes of a single business. Not two separate businesses.

They are two separate businesses and need to be considered as such. Manufacturing and retail are very different things with very different demands and problems. While it's possible to do both you need to be aware of the reality that you're running two businesses under one brand name. And as you scale up you're going to have to consider things like which people do you hire: retail and warehouse workers, manufacturing operators, etc.

concierge service and gray areas where it's not just a simple refund case don't exist? Please clarify.

It's always a simple refund case. You either ship a replacement package immediately or, if you can't because of stock issues or whatever, you issue an immediate full refund. It's only "not a simple refund case" if you are making the short-sighted mistake of being unwilling to eat the loss with a customer whose complaint you feel is unreasonable. Successful businesses understand that you have to accept a certain amount of unreasonable losses as the cost of doing business and resolve every case with an immediate refund/replacement. Any scenario outside of this resolution is an extreme edge case and not really worth discussing.

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BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Are customers generally that averse to special orders? I used to have to special order most of the items I wanted (Mantic, Frostgrave, Antares, Dropfleet, Victrix, Shieldwolf) from the FLGS, wait longer than a month, and pay full price. For a lot of products, that’s just how it is in the US.

I think they are now. It used to be more of a thing in the old days, before Amazon set the expectation of same-day delivery with free shipping and even GW barely had an online store. Or even go back a bit further, when online shopping was still a relatively rare thing and a lot of people had to buy through a physical store (or didn't trust online stores). A special order had value then because it might be the only way you could get something. But now, if a third-party store can't sell me the thing immediately why would I buy from them instead of going directly to the manufacturer? Or, if nobody has it in stock, I'm probably going to write off the game as yet another "cool concept, bad execution" failure because I can't trust that the game will continue to be supported after my initial investment. Too many people have been burned by once-and-done kickstarter projects where nobody plays anymore and getting new people into the game is impossible.

**Overread**

It depends what you order and what the competition is like. If you're the only person stocking X or if the only way to get X is special orders no matter the store then its not a barrier.

However if its your default and you've got stuff on special order that other stores list as regular stock or as just a regular order item. Then special order sounds a lot lot slower, more involved and less attractive to the customer.

It also depends on the timeframes. Special Order Next Day Delivery is fantastic; Special Order next Month is less ideal. Again it comes down to the timescales and where you sit with regard to the competition.
It also depends on the product; a standard off the shelf model box is treated differently to a custom created product etc....

**Azazelx**

Maybe if you buy everything from a FLGS. I went to one a few weeks ago to get the new white GW spray becasue I was in the area, but that was the first time I've been to one since before Pandemic, and even then it was rare. I don't have one local and haven't done in-store gaming since the early 2000's. Everything's online now, so everything is a "special order" of a week or two from whoever has it in stock right now.

**insaniak**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Are customers generally that averse to special orders? I used to have to special order most of the items I wanted (Mantic, Frostgrave, Antares, Dropfleet, Victrix, Shieldwolf) from the FLGS, wait longer than a month, and pay full price. For a lot of products, that’s just how it is in the US.

I know some people are happy to wait so long as the price is good. I'm reluctant to backorder anything if it (or a viable alternative) is in stock elsewhere, because (a) I don't like to wait longer than I have to for my toys (even if they're just going to sit on a shelf for an indeterminate time before I get around to doing anything with them.) and (b) I've been burnt in the past where a backorder turned out to be no longer available, so I wasted a bunch of time waiting for something that never came, to then have to order it from somewhere else or find an alternative and add even more time onto the purchase.

Allowing for special orders is definitely a viable and good option if you can guarantee speedy turnaround on them, but I would echo those previous who have said that it absolutely needs to be spelt out up front so the customer is aware whether they are buying an in-stock item or a backorder. If I'm not told that the product is out of stock before I order, I would generally ask for a refund and take the order somewhere else. Inventory errors happen, and for that there can be some leeway, but deliberately selling product that isn't in stock without making that clear at the outset is infuriating (and potentially illegal in some areas). If you're going to allow over-selling, having a stock counter visible to the customer before purchase is a must. Ideally, there should also be a message on checkout (before payment) that points out yet again the items that are out of stock and will be backordered, with the expected turnaround and the resultant shipping procedure (whether the order is held to ship together or shipped piecemeal as backordered items arrive).

Changing the coding on OOS items to say 'Backorder' rather than 'Out of Stock' and adding in a few notifications here and there should be an easy coding fix if you are using an off-the-shelf cart system, and likely wouldn't cost much to find a freelancer to do for you if you're not able to do it yourself.

McDougall Designs wrote:
This is exactly my issue and what I have been trying to say I'm dealing with. I'm getting reported on facebook because i'm advertising, when I'm simply trying to get word of mouth out there to potentially interested hobbyists in groups centered in the US or local regions..

Yup, social media is awful for business advertising. Paid ads have poor ROI, and people Hide or report them if they aren't interested, which damages your Reach on future promotions and page posts. And many groups are very strict on keeping things non-commercial... any Facebook group or Subreddit is moderated at the whim of those in charge, and that's just something that you have to deal with. While it's frustrating as a business to not be able to post 'Hey, I have a store, check it out!' in those groups (particularly when it is still ok for other people to share where they get things from, but stores can't speak up for themselves), on the flip side the lack of commercial posting is exactly what some people want from that space. The best option there is to post hobby content to get eyeballs on and let it build organically from there rather than specifically trying to promote the store. But it's time consuming, and made worse by the current algorithm focus on videos over pics.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

As an admin and indeed founder of a specialised FB trading group?

We don’t allow shops to advertise, because quite frankly, if something goes wrong I can’t be arsed dealing with people stupid enough to think it’s somehow become my problem. I do deal with stupid people professionally, it’s true. But there I’m paid to deal with stupid.

If we allow someone to advertise, it become a tacit endorsement of that store. If things go belly up, we get tarred with the same brush. So it’s a no-go.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And, at the risk of sounding unnecessarily provocative?

Why should My Group (or indeed any FB Group) allow you to advertise your shop?

**Illumini**

McDougall Designs wrote:

Every product page has substantive tagging. If you search dwarves, you should come up with 95% of the dwarves I carry, for instance. I can always add tags manually as well.

As stated above, I cannot name things as not-lotr alternative or use naming conventions of that manner for legal reasons.

Currently I'm engaged in fixing the image situation on the mantic special orders tabs.

Showing the tags might be helpful, so I get a hint that I can actually filter on something else than designer / manufacturer.

Not being able to use copyrighted names is understandable, but using slightly more generic descriptions that still tell clearly what theme the miniatures are would be nicer to navigate than the designer. Might also be worth toeing the line a bit, and rather pull back if you get cease and desist. A lot of these terms have been shown to not be enforceable.

**Slipspace**

McDougall Designs wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
McDougall Designs wrote:
Ok. I'll take the ready shelf items and make them stock on hand only. And then make special order pages for the same relevant items.

I frankly think thats more confusing, but I understand where others would see differently.

I think the way you split things up is very confusing as is. The phrase "shelf-ready" isn't one I've come across before so I wasn't really sure what it meant. Your current set-up also splits up stock that, form on outside perspective, is all the same company/system, which makes it harder to browse. Putting everything in one place with real-time stock indicators is a much better solution.

Except then, due to limitations on the backend system I use, all the special order items will come up as out of stock

Which, frankly they are, but that is also the point of those listings,

Then you need to fix your website. 25 years ago it might have been OK to just show an inventory and hook up a payment processor but in 2022 people expect a lot more from their retail websites. Live (or near-live) stock levels is one thing they'll expect. If an item is only available on special order then you need a system that can cope with that.

You're making the classic mistake almost everyone makes when designing websites. You're not thinking like the target audience - you're thinking like you. Your website is set up according to how your business operates, with in-stock and special order in separate buckets. That makes sense if you have to manage inventory but it makes less sense to a customer because, frankly, they don't care about the details of how you run your business.

If you tell me you sell everything by Mantic it's madness that I can't click a single link and see all those items in one place. As someone with passing familiarity with Mantic's range, there doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason to whether something is special order or standard stock. So I may be looking for something in the "ready-shelf" section, not realising its in the special order section. Since the special order section has no filtering and 22 pages of items and page 1 is full of placeholder images, the chances of me clicking down into your site to find what I'm after are slim.

**McDougall Designs**

Slipspace wrote:
McDougall Designs wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
McDougall Designs wrote:
Ok. I'll take the ready shelf items and make them stock on hand only. And then make special order pages for the same relevant items.

I frankly think thats more confusing, but I understand where others would see differently.

I think the way you split things up is very confusing as is. The phrase "shelf-ready" isn't one I've come across before so I wasn't really sure what it meant. Your current set-up also splits up stock that, form on outside perspective, is all the same company/system, which makes it harder to browse. Putting everything in one place with real-time stock indicators is a much better solution.

Except then, due to limitations on the backend system I use, all the special order items will come up as out of stock

Which, frankly they are, but that is also the point of those listings,

Then you need to fix your website. 25 years ago it might have been OK to just show an inventory and hook up a payment processor but in 2022 people expect a lot more from their retail websites. Live (or near-live) stock levels is one thing they'll expect. If an item is only available on special order then you need a system that can cope with that.

You're making the classic mistake almost everyone makes when designing websites. You're not thinking like the target audience - you're thinking like you. Your website is set up according to how your business operates, with in-stock and special order in separate buckets. That makes sense if you have to manage inventory but it makes less sense to a customer because, frankly, they don't care about the details of how you run your business.

If you tell me you sell everything by Mantic it's madness that I can't click a single link and see all those items in one place. As someone with passing familiarity with Mantic's range, there doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason to whether something is special order or standard stock. So I may be looking for something in the "ready-shelf" section, not realising its in the special order section. Since the special order section has no filtering and 22 pages of items and page 1 is full of placeholder images, the chances of me clicking down into your site to find what I'm after are slim.

Yes, and thats currently what I'm working on fixing. the special order section i mean. I realize the site is needs work.

**Overread**

A while back I started doing some website stuff - links in my signature - however I found that as I'm not a web-designer and my last attempt at web design was in the 90s doing a school project, I was just way out of my depth.

Yes you can find a lot of resources online, but its a nightmare, esp any popular packages because over the years they get so many updates and guides written and subtle differences in code that searching is a minefield of unreliable, old and random results.

Ergo I found that if I wanted to make it work for me and do what I wanted I had to make a choice. Cut back and change the focus or actually hire someone to do the back-end work and at the very least set things up to run in the most efficient and sensible manner.

As it was more a hobby interest for me and taking it pro would be a huge risk I chose to scale back and honestly haven't touched it in a while (but I will get back to it at some stage).

In your case I'd honestly say its time to get some money together and hire a website designer. At the very least a one time cost to get your site up and running professionally and quickly. doing it yourself works, but you can end up taking many times the length of time to get where you need to be. Which when you want to trade and sell right now, is not ideal.

**McDougall Designs**

Overread wrote:
A while back I started doing some website stuff - links in my signature - however I found that as I'm not a web-designer and my last attempt at web design was in the 90s doing a school project, I was just way out of my depth.

Yes you can find a lot of resources online, but its a nightmare, esp any popular packages because over the years they get so many updates and guides written and subtle differences in code that searching is a minefield of unreliable, old and random results.

Ergo I found that if I wanted to make it work for me and do what I wanted I had to make a choice. Cut back and change the focus or actually hire someone to do the back-end work and at the very least set things up to run in the most efficient and sensible manner.

As it was more a hobby interest for me and taking it pro would be a huge risk I chose to scale back and honestly haven't touched it in a while (but I will get back to it at some stage).

In your case I'd honestly say its time to get some money together and hire a website designer. At the very least a one time cost to get your site up and running professionally and quickly. doing it yourself works, but you can end up taking many times the length of time to get where you need to be. Which when you want to trade and sell right now, is not ideal.

Thank you for the perspective.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Overread wrote:
*snip*

Quote used to tag Overread.

So I've updated the front splash page a bit. I'm also, as previously stated, engaged in updating the special order sections.

I've also put out some feelers for a web developer.

I appreciate your thoughts and this discussion has been extremely useful.

**Aecus Decimus**

Illumini wrote:
Not being able to use copyrighted names is understandable, but using slightly more generic descriptions that still tell clearly what theme the miniatures are would be nicer to navigate than the designer. Might also be worth toeing the line a bit, and rather pull back if you get cease and desist. A lot of these terms have been shown to not be enforceable.

Yeah, when dealing with IP issues it's important to consider the nuances. "28mm Gandalf miniature" is a trademark violation, "28mm wizard miniature suitable for use as Gandalf in Games Workshop's LOTR game" is perfectly legal (and GW lost on this point in the CHS case). You can't misrepresent your products in a way that people would think they're the official GW/Tolkein/whatever product but statements about compatibility or use cases are absolutely ok. And those statements will put the same search terms out there.

(Mandatory disclaimer: "what is illegal" and "what GW will sue you over" are not necessarily the same thing, and defending your use in court can be expensive even if you are clearly going to win. Use your own judgement about what risk level if acceptable.)

**Azazelx**

The Tolkien stuff is much more of a minefield than Space Marines due to multiple rights and licence holders, pretty much all of which make GW look like an ant.
"28mm Grey-Cloaked Wizard for use in Popular fantasy games." and a photo so people can understand for themselves.
Similarly, when listing not-marines, use the STL artists' descriptions, along with generic terms that have been used safely for, you know, the last decade or two. Power Armoured Space Viking/Vampiric/Roman Warrior, etc.

Those small changes to the website already make it look 1000% better. It now looks much more like generic hobby retailer rather than something a high school kid did as a school project. I'd get a Shieldwolf and/or (and is better) box set or two up there to replace the Gift Card, though. It looks much more like filler unless it's in a carousel, and people prefer to see product front and center.

Also, is the Ogre Warlock discounted? It doesn't have the strikethrough original price in it's boxout, so it leaves me unsure. I'm not being facetious - I don't know the RRP or discounted prices of Mantic off the topf of my head, let alone in the US. (and you can't rely on customers knowing - they might think it's not if it is, or vice versa).

**Overread**

Just remember some STL makers don't understand/respect copyright either. Some very much do sell things under GW terms. So you always have to exercise some degree of caution. Doubly so if they use GW style insignias and such. Best to just avoid creators like that and focus on those who make stuff that isn't going to be risky.

**Azazelx**

Absolutely.
You need to do due dilligence in checking out the STL makers ahead of time and see if you an find out if they've had any GW-related issues in the past.
Due dilligence is on you, of course, but here's another one for free.

Avatars of War have an established name, following and business as a fantasy minis maker and now do STLs - they're also Warhammer-style, but safely in the generic fantasy and the fact that they've been trading for decades is a good sign.
https://www.patreon.com/avatarsofwar/membership
Their retailer tier is "sold out" right now, but that certainly seems like the sort of thing that could be adjusted with a nicely-worded email.

**McDougall Designs**

Azazelx wrote:
The Tolkien stuff is much more of a minefield than Space Marines due to multiple rights and licence holders, pretty much all of which make GW look like an ant.
"28mm Grey-Cloaked Wizard for use in Popular fantasy games." and a photo so people can understand for themselves.
Similarly, when listing not-marines, use the STL artists' descriptions, along with generic terms that have been used safely for, you know, the last decade or two. Power Armoured Space Viking/Vampiric/Roman Warrior, etc.

Those small changes to the website already make it look 1000% better. It now looks much more like generic hobby retailer rather than something a high school kid did as a school project. I'd get a Shieldwolf and/or (and is better) box set or two up there to replace the Gift Card, though. It looks much more like filler unless it's in a carousel, and people prefer to see product front and center.

Also, is the Ogre Warlock discounted? It doesn't have the strikethrough original price in it's boxout, so it leaves me unsure. I'm not being facetious - I don't know the RRP or discounted prices of Mantic off the topf of my head, let alone in the US. (and you can't rely on customers knowing - they might think it's not if it is, or vice versa).

Yes the ogre warlock is standard discount. 20% off. I've corrected the visual error

**Talking Banana**

Aecus Decimus wrote:
McDougall Designs wrote:
I'm not a capitalistic "retail must be money at all costs"

Then you will fail.

Obi-Wan Kenobi: I will do what I must.

Vader: Then you will die.

**McDougall Designs**

Vermonter wrote:
Aecus Decimus wrote:
McDougall Designs wrote:
I'm not a capitalistic "retail must be money at all costs"

Then you will fail.

Obi-Wan Kenobi: I will do what I must.

Vader: Then you will die.

It's over Anakin, I have the (moral) high ground!

In all seriousness though, my business philosophy is always customer first. My ideal of life is treating others with respect, earning enough to be comfortable, and working enough to keep me busy.

I've never wanted to be anything other than an honest merchant with this business.

I appreciate everyone's words and suggestions throughout this thread. You've shown me some glaring weaknesses that I am trying to correct

**Tabletop_Magpie**

I would suggest reaching out to Neil at Leodis Games here in the UK.

https://www.leodisgames.com/

He started off as an online retailer, then adapted to a store and then expanded to having a gaming space too in a short space of time.

I saw Geek Gaming Scenics mentioned earlier with regards to YouTube/Store crossover. Luke makes pretty much all of the product he sells, and it is very very good. Trying to ape his YT success is a miserable endeavour though, he was doing the right things at the right time and basically set the standard for (uk at least) quality content production for hobby YouTube.

**stroller**

"In all seriousness though, my business philosophy is always customer first. My ideal of life is treating others with respect, earning enough to be comfortable, and working enough to keep me busy.

I've never wanted to be anything other than an honest merchant with this business."

Might be barking up the wrong tree here... I applaud customer first etc, but I find myself wondering... is this your main or sole income? Is the business a hobby/lifestyle choice, or do you depend on it for food?

If the former.. do as you please.. it's your money & your time.... but maybe do it more efficiently as suggested above so you can enjoy it more. If the latter, the bottom line is profit, however harsh that sounds.

**McDougall Designs**

stroller wrote:
"In all seriousness though, my business philosophy is always customer first. My ideal of life is treating others with respect, earning enough to be comfortable, and working enough to keep me busy.

I've never wanted to be anything other than an honest merchant with this business."

Might be barking up the wrong tree here... I applaud customer first etc, but I find myself wondering... is this your main or sole income? Is the business a hobby/lifestyle choice, or do you depend on it for food?

If the former.. do as you please.. it's your money & your time.... but maybe do it more efficiently as suggested above so you can enjoy it more. If the latter, the bottom line is profit, however harsh that sounds.

Yes, it is my sole source of income. I have medical issues which have complicated things in the last year, and working from home has been the only thing I can do.

Its not harsh. What you say is true. I understand my view on work, what I do and how I do it is idealistic. I'm not necessarily living in a vacuum and I am self-aware of my situation.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tabletop_Magpie wrote:
I would suggest reaching out to Neil at Leodis Games here in the UK.

https://www.leodisgames.com/

He started off as an online retailer, then adapted to a store and then expanded to having a gaming space too in a short space of time.

I saw Geek Gaming Scenics mentioned earlier with regards to YouTube/Store crossover. Luke makes pretty much all of the product he sells, and it is very very good. Trying to ape his YT success is a miserable endeavour though, he was doing the right things at the right time and basically set the standard for (uk at least) quality content production for hobby YouTube.

Thanks. I've reached out to Neil via his contact us form.

**privateer4hire**

If you can crack the code to sell Warlord stuff at discount without their extremely high US shipping, you would be a rare animal. Especially for their direct only items

**McDougall Designs**

privateer4hire wrote:
If you can crack the code to sell Warlord stuff at discount without their extremely high US shipping, you would be a rare animal. Especially for their direct only items

I actually could pick up warlord if I wanted. They have a max discount policy though.

I haven't seen any demand for it, at least not in my various information feeds. I'll happily consider it if more people want it.

**Talking Banana**

And in all seriousness, I'm glad this thread has been helpful to you, and (my Darth Vader joke notwithstanding) I'm glad that you didn't take the criticism expressed here personally. Your ability to do that will serve you very well in a business career. (Any career, really.) The prolix ramble that follows constitutes my more serious response to this thread.

While focusing on "profit first" is important for your business' viability, that doesn't mean being friendly and helpful to customers must be replaced by being an ass or unhelpful, which will definitely won't help. Similarly, turning Mr. Scrooge and raising your prices to increase your income will only succeed if your prices remain lower than your competition's. So your idealism and low prices aren't bad things, per se, you just can't expect to stay afloat if you put them above keeping the lights on.

And as Bob said, you actually do have a simple, undeniable appeal to "red in tooth and claw" / "me first" capitalist customers: you're the cheapest place in the USA to get Mantic goods in general, and a convenient source for many company's low-priced sprues of models that are generally sold boxed with multiples many gamers don't need. Yes, there are people on ebay doing the same thing, but your prices are lower than theirs (they have to give ebay a cut, too), and since you stock many sprues, a customer can buy a lot of what they're after and get it shipped once, rather than buying multiple sprues from different sellers and paying shipping over and over.

The argument many have made here that your website could present your store's genuine bargain appeal more clearly is a good one, and the first thing I'd act on if I was in your position. Ease of navigation / clarity on a shop website does make a difference. Personally, I'd tread more carefully before trying to launch a local physical store. That would require some research (what's the local competition / population interest level), lifestyle consideration (do you want to run a physical store?), and clarity about what you'd need to do to make it work. Keeping all that stock and paying rent isn't cheap, and since many gamers principally buy things online at cheaper prices now, success is far from guaranteed. (My local comic shop dropped carrying Games Workshop products entirely, purportedly after the owner overheard a kid perusing his slow-moving 40K goods saying "Yeah, I like to come here and look, then I go online and get it cheaper.")

I would also ask myself point blank if I'd be happy keeping my FLGS store afloat mostly by selling lots of Pokemon cards. The point has been made that catering to what the market likes, even if you don't like it yourself, is at some level a must for an online store, but it's even more true for a physical store. You can start stocking empty dripper bottles or space marines for broader appeal on your online store, but you could find yourself pushing Pokemon and limited edition Funco Pop Bobblehead dolls to keep the doors open for a physical shop.

(As an aside, you're far from the first or only store to have a website that could be better organized. That doesn't mean you shouldn't address that as a priority, but don't take it personally. Many small miniatures online businesses (and some larger ones) would make more sales if they were better organized, and still really need a makeover.)

I'm not a business person at all, but I know from old fogey wisdom that new businesses can take months or years to start breaking even, and then to start making a profit. I don't know the realities of selling miniatures online for a living, but if you need money badly in the short term, this might not be a viable path. In terms of making a living, my guess would be that selling gaming supplies is probably one of the more difficult business models to choose. As you are self-aware, I'm sure you're know the risk involved in pursuing this dream business rather than starting a laundromat (or whatever is hot these days. Based purely on the cost of equipment necessary to set up their business, Ben and Jerry considered making bagels before settling on ice cream. They didn't have a particular love for or expertise in ice cream (at first,) they just realized that ice cream was a food business with start-up costs they could afford.) Making a business successful in the USA isn't just about being a good person and working hard, it's also about timing, and frankly, a lot about luck. Many successful entrepreneurs fail multiple times before one of their business ventures finally succeeds.

So you have a real enthusiasm for what you're selling, and you have a genuine niche with some key product lines (Mantic, Wargames Atlantic) where you genuinely beat your competition. That's good! But whether or not there's enough demand to make a living selling what you're selling is an open question. (If not, perhaps there would be if you diversified a bit more.) Right now you're trying to figure out how to reach your audience better, but even if you solve that 100%, there's still the question of whether that audience will be large enough to keep you in business. I honestly have no idea. I've already benefited from your business and saved money, so as a miniature-buying customer I want to see your doors stay open, but not if it's going to run you into financial disaster. Stay clear-eyed.

I don't know how your 3-D printing prices compare to your competition's (I don't buy much 3-D printed stuff), but knowing you, your prices probably beat theirs. I wouldn't name your competitors on your site, but it's not a bad idea to foreground your good printing prices. If your prices beat others' for printing customer submitted STLs - either of their own creation, or that they've legally acquired from KS campaigns or Humble Bundle or whatever - that would be good to say upfront as well.

Speaking of stocking work you might not like but sells well, how did the Big Mr. Tong minis sell in your old store? His line isn't the best designed, and much of it shamelessly rips off famous franchises (to the point where you had to take down the Space Marine-alikes, as I recall,) but because it plays to beloved properties that don't have miniatures available for, I'd think it might be popular. I don't know; you do. Just saying, if that product moved, you might consider it again.

Last point - I don't share Decimus' problem with you being both a printing company and a source for manufactured sprues, but you could consider making your business name point that out more clearly. Some much cleverer iteration of "Sprues N' 3d prints," (please don't use that wording) perhaps. McDougall is a very fine family name - I count an Amy and a Logan of that lineage among my friends - but "McDougall Designs" could apply to a wide variety of products. On second thought, the name isn't the problem (if there is one,) anyway; you could even keep it for something much catchier than "McDougall Sprues N' Prints." But consider that names like "The Warstore" (which was big and successful and went out of business anyway) and (moreso) "Miniature Market" immediately tell you something about what they're selling. ("Nobleknight" doesn't, but it does strongly evoke the genre most identified with RPG / miniature gaming.)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
One last thing - I've mentioned it before, but you might want to investigate whether stocking Frostgrave / Stargrave sprues would be a worthwhile investment. The lines would compliment your existing sprue lines well, particularly Wargames Atlantic, with which Frostgrave / Stargrave scales especially well. As always, you'd want to check what ebay sellers sell the sprues for first, and see if you can undercut them. (But not having to pay Ebay a cut of your profits would give you a leg up.)

As someone who's bought Frostgrave and Stargrave sprues off of ebay, I've had varying luck finding a US seller moving them at a reasonable price. Finding a seller who stocks all of the sprues I want to buy at the same time with combined shipping isn't always possible, so you could have an advantage there.

I currently have all the Frostgrave / Stargrave sprues I need; I just happen to really like them and think they compare very favorably to WGA, and would prefer buying whatever comes next from North Star plastics from you rather than random ebay sellers. Unfortunately, I can't speak to the broader market popularity / viability of North Star's plastics (maybe other Dakka-ites can?), so look before you leap, especially considering that you'd probably have to price them higher than WGA sprues. (Also an issue with Mantic sprues due to their pricing policies. I have no idea how that affects their sales.)

**Cruentus**

McDougall Designs wrote:
privateer4hire wrote:
If you can crack the code to sell Warlord stuff at discount without their extremely high US shipping, you would be a rare animal. Especially for their direct only items

I actually could pick up warlord if I wanted. They have a max discount policy though.

I haven't seen any demand for it, at least not in my various information feeds. I'll happily consider it if more people want it.

D'Oh! Now you tell me! I just bought close to $200 of Warlord stuff direct from them, cause I couldn't find what I wanted in the wild. Had I known you could get it, I would have checked with you first.

I've bought some of your Reconquista models and they're top notch. Am eyeing up a plastics order as well.

Any chance you can get Victrix?

**privateer4hire**

$200! That’s darn near 30 GBP

**McDougall Designs**

Vermonter wrote:
And in all seriousness, I'm glad this thread has been helpful to you, and (my Darth Vader joke notwithstanding) I'm glad that you didn't take the criticism expressed here personally. Your ability to do that will serve you very well in a business career. (Any career, really.) The prolix ramble that follows constitutes my more serious response to this thread.

Its a crazy world. My background is in historical research. But, to quote Socrates : "I know one thing, that I know nothing."

In this instance, its better to ask the community, who I want to sell to, for feedback. not only is it potential customer interaction, but as this thread has shown brutal honesty comes out. And frankly that's what i needed.

While focusing on "profit first" is important for your business' viability, that doesn't mean being friendly and helpful to customers must be replaced by being an ass or unhelpful, which will definitely won't help. Similarly, turning Mr. Scrooge and raising your prices to increase your income will only succeed if your prices remain lower than your competition's. So your idealism and low prices aren't bad things, per se, you just can't expect to stay afloat if you put them above keeping the lights on.

Agreed.

And as Bob said, you actually do have a simple, undeniable appeal to "red in tooth and claw" / "me first" capitalist customers: you're the cheapest place in the USA to get Mantic goods in general, and a convenient source for many company's low-priced sprues of models that are generally sold boxed with multiples many gamers don't need. Yes, there are people on ebay doing the same thing, but your prices are lower than theirs (they have to give ebay a cut, too), and since you stock many sprues, a customer can buy a lot of what they're after and get it shipped once, rather than buying multiple sprues from different sellers and paying shipping over and over.

That was the idea, at least as far as offering sprues was concerned. all in one place for ease of purchase.

The argument many have made here that your website could present your store's genuine bargain appeal more clearly is a good one, and the first thing I'd act on if I was in your position. Ease of navigation / clarity on a shop website does make a difference. Personally, I'd tread more carefully before trying to launch a local physical store.

Agreed. I mentioned a physical storefront because in all honestly it is a goal. I'm of the personal belief that it will be firmly in the "in-the-future" category though, as current sales levels couldn't sustain rent and maintenance. not to mention additional licensing, etc.

I have discovered this is a detriment, in some ways. Two hobby distributors will not sell to me because my business address is also my residential address.

Furthermore, I've had at least one wargaming manufacturer deny me trade terms because A) I would not write a bespoke business plan centered around how I would sell their products, and B I do not have a physical storefront.

That would require some research (what's the local competition / population interest level), lifestyle consideration (do you want to run a physical store?), and clarity about what you'd need to do to make it work. Keeping all that stock and paying rent isn't cheap, and since many gamers principally buy things online at cheaper prices now, success is far from guaranteed. (My local comic shop dropped carrying Games Workshop products entirely, purportedly after the owner overheard a kid perusing his slow-moving 40K goods saying "Yeah, I like to come here and look, then I go online and get it cheaper.")

I'm guilty of window shopping GW products at a local store myself. I wholeheartedly understand that retailers decision to can GW products, especially when they have MAPP (Minimum advertised pricing policy is a killer, especially when full retail in a brick-and-mortar storefront is the only way the margins make sense.

I've got a phone appointment with a web-developer later today, and will be making improvements to the current store pages personally up until that needs to change.

I would also ask myself point blank if I'd be happy keeping my FLGS store afloat mostly by selling lots of Pokemon cards. The point has been made that catering to what the market likes, even if you don't like it yourself, is at some level a must for an online store, but it's even more true for a physical store. You can start stocking empty dripper bottles or space marines for broader appeal on your online store, but you could find yourself pushing Pokemon and limited edition Funco Pop Bobblehead dolls to keep the doors open for a physical shop.

I'm not against carrying and selling cards. Magic the gathering basically pays the rent for every gaming store I've ever known (Including the one I worked at!)

What I would do, however, would be to build that in stages.

(As an aside, you're far from the first or only store to have a website that could be better organized. That doesn't mean you shouldn't address that as a priority, but don't take it personally. Many small miniatures online businesses (and some larger ones) would make more sales if they were better organized, and still really need a makeover.)

completely understood. everything is a WIP

I'm not a business person at all, but I know from old fogey wisdom that new businesses can take months or years

two to five years, on average. I understand that I'm in my first year and I'll probably be breaking even for the next 3. I need to drive some sales though, hence the thread for ideas and suggestions. especially since I'm getting stonewalled by facebook groups.

to start breaking even, and then to start making a profit. I don't know the realities of selling miniatures online for a living, but if you need money badly in the short term, this might not be a viable path.

I have a support system in place and a small amount of financial backing. I'm not panicking, but sales seem....sluggish, if that makes sense? I don't need cash to live in the short term, so as i said I'm not panicked.

In terms of making a living, my guess would be that selling gaming supplies is probably one of the more difficult business models to choose. As you are self-aware, I'm sure you're know the risk involved in pursuing this dream business rather than starting a laundromat (or whatever is hot these days. Based purely on the cost of equipment necessary to set up their business, Ben and Jerry considered making bagels before settling on ice cream. They didn't have a particular love for or expertise in ice cream (at first,) they just realized that ice cream was a food business with start-up costs they could afford.) Making a business successful in the USA isn't just about being a good person and working hard, it's also about timing, and frankly, a lot about luck. Many successful entrepreneurs fail multiple times before one of their business ventures finally succeeds.

I fully intend to diversify what I carry to the best of my ability, to hedge against needing an excess of luck.

So you have a real enthusiasm for what you're selling, and you have a genuine niche with some key product lines (Mantic, Wargames Atlantic) where you genuinely beat your competition. That's good! But whether or not there's enough demand to make a living selling what you're selling is an open question. (If not, perhaps there would be if you diversified a bit more.) Right now you're trying to figure out how to reach your audience better, but even if you solve that 100%, there's still the question of whether that audience will be large enough to keep you in business. I honestly have no idea. I've already benefited from your business and saved money, so as a miniature-buying customer I want to see your doors stay open, but not if it's going to run you into financial disaster. Stay clear-eyed.

Not disaster or ruination. not yet, at least. I think demand is naturally low because of disposable income levels in the US being low right now.

I don't know how your 3-D printing prices compare to your competition's (I don't buy much 3-D printed stuff), but knowing you, your prices probably beat theirs. I wouldn't name your competitors on your site, but it's not a bad idea to foreground your good printing prices. If your prices beat others' for printing customer submitted STLs - either of their own creation, or that they've legally acquired from KS campaigns or Humble Bundle or whatever - that would be good to say upfront as well.

Roughly speaking, my prices meet or are better than ebay and etsy competition. There are some outliers.

Speaking of stocking work you might not like but sells well, how did the Big Mr. Tong minis sell in your old store? His line isn't the best designed, and much of it shamelessly rips off famous franchises (to the point where you had to take down the Space Marine-alikes, as I recall,) but because it plays to beloved properties that don't have miniatures available for, I'd think it might be popular. I don't know; you do. Just saying, if that product moved, you might consider it again.

I can/t speak for anything related to the prior store I was involved with.

Last point - I don't share Decimus' problem with you being both a printing company and a source for manufactured sprues, but you could consider making your business name point that out more clearly. Some much cleverer iteration of "Sprues N' 3d prints," (please don't use that wording) perhaps. McDougall is a very fine family name - I count an Amy and a Logan of that lineage among my friends - but "McDougall Designs" could apply to a wide variety of products. On second thought, the name isn't the problem (if there is one,) anyway; you could even keep it for something much catchier than "McDougall Sprues N' Prints." But consider that names like "The Warstore" (which was big and successful and went out of business anyway) and (moreso) "Miniature Market" immediately tell you something about what they're selling. ("Nobleknight" doesn't, but it does strongly evoke the genre most identified with RPG / miniature gaming.)

I appreciate your point about the store name.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
One last thing - I've mentioned it before, but you might want to investigate whether stocking Frostgrave / Stargrave sprues would be a worthwhile investment. The lines would compliment your existing sprue lines well, particularly Wargames Atlantic, with which Frostgrave / Stargrave scales especially well. As always, you'd want to check what ebay sellers sell the sprues for first, and see if you can undercut them. (But not having to pay Ebay a cut of your profits would give you a leg up.)

As someone who's bought Frostgrave and Stargrave sprues off of ebay, I've had varying luck finding a US seller moving them at a reasonable price. Finding a seller who stocks all of the sprues I want to buy at the same time with combined shipping isn't always possible, so you could have an advantage there.

Northstar's plastics have been on my list.

I currently have all the Frostgrave / Stargrave sprues I need; I just happen to really like them and think they compare very favorably to WGA, and would prefer buying whatever comes next from North Star plastics from you rather than random ebay sellers. Unfortunately, I can't speak to the broader market popularity / viability of North Star's plastics (maybe other Dakka-ites can?), so look before you leap, especially considering that you'd probably have to price them higher than WGA sprues. (Also an issue with Mantic sprues due to their pricing policies. I have no idea how that affects their sales.)

Mantic's sprues are priced based on the way they come. Unfortunatley with mantic this is a case of "Not all the parts on one sprue" meaning to make full models you need both sprues. Hence, the sprue lots that make complete miniatures, on my store.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cruentus wrote:
McDougall Designs wrote:
privateer4hire wrote:
If you can crack the code to sell Warlord stuff at discount without their extremely high US shipping, you would be a rare animal. Especially for their direct only items

I actually could pick up warlord if I wanted. They have a max discount policy though.

I haven't seen any demand for it, at least not in my various information feeds. I'll happily consider it if more people want it.

D'Oh! Now you tell me! I just bought close to $200 of Warlord stuff direct from them, cause I couldn't find what I wanted in the wild. Had I known you could get it, I would have checked with you first.

I've bought some of your Reconquista models and they're top notch. Am eyeing up a plastics order as well.

Any chance you can get Victrix?

Honestly warlord being an option has been on the table for awhile now, I just didn't see demand so decided against investing heavily into another product line without cause.

I have an email out to victrix about trade terms. so, lets say its a maybe until they get back to me.

For future reference please email me if you ever have questions about availability.

**Aecus Decimus**

Vermonter wrote:
Last point - I don't share Decimus' problem with you being both a printing company and a source for manufactured sprues

I don't think it's automatically a problem, it's just a definite complicating factor to have two very different businesses. For example, let's say OP's store starts to succeed and sales volume for both businesses increases beyond what OP alone can handle. Does he hire a 3d printing operator who may or may not be able to handle the retail stuff? Does he hire a retail employee who may or may not be able to run the 3d printers? If there are budget constraints and OP needs to buy both additional warehouse space and more printers which one gets priority for funding? Is selling the 3d printed parts still sustainable if OP has to contract out the manufacturing work to keep up with demand? Are there regulatory or tax issues that might have different effects on the retail half vs. the manufacturing half? Does success with the manufacturing side result in cannibalizing sales of the retail shop? Issues like this obviously aren't impossible to answer but OP is definitely playing on hard mode trying to run both businesses and get them launched simultaneously.

**Azreal13**

that new businesses can take months or years to start breaking even, and then to start making a profit.

This is a common perception. A hard fact is that most small businesses fail within 36 months.

What folks who aren't familiar with the nuts and bolts of that statement don't realise is that if you're not making a profit you're making a loss. You can't just have that loss floating around like it doesn't mean anything, sadly that's the preserve of much larger businesses.

Losses year on year can be sustained by a business that's either got enough of a proven track record to demonstrate to a bank that they're a decent credit risk or one that has sufficient cash reserves to pay off what it owes.

Most small startups have neither of those things, they maybe have a bit of start up capital at most, and sadly all too often people start to put their own personal financial assets into the business to try and get over this hurdle, and that's when people lose their homes and families.

I cannot emphasise enough the importance of knowing when enough's enough and the difference between investing in the future and pouring good money after bad. As much as the cost can pinch, a good accountant who's going to tell you what's what, or a chat with a small business adviser at your local bank, armed with your balance sheet, and some sort of business plan, can save a lot of heart ache in the long term, even if it means hearing things you don't want to now.

TLDR A successful young business that's struggling to make a profit has very different problems to a zombie business lurching from month to month, the zombie won't suddenly come good if you miraculously make it to some theoretical milestone, and it's important to know what the two different issues look like.

**Aecus Decimus**

Azreal13 wrote:
What folks who aren't familiar with the nuts and bolts of that statement don't realise is that if you're not making a profit you're making a loss.

To add to this: if you aren't making a significant profit you're also making a loss. A small profit is actually an overall loss because of opportunity cost: opportunity cost of tying up money in inventory, opportunity cost of spending your time and energy running the business instead of working for someone else, etc. It's easy for a hobby business like a game store to limp along technically not losing money but also not making enough money for it to be worth doing. If you're only making $20k/year profit then you're better off working part time at your local Walmart instead. And you'd better be very careful you don't fall into the trap of investing more money in that barely-succeeding business and turning a small profit into a big loss.

(Of course the world of venture capital and massive annual losses plays by different rules, but if you're starting a conventional retail business you aren't living in that world.)

**McDougall Designs**

Aecus Decimus wrote:
Azreal13 wrote:
What folks who aren't familiar with the nuts and bolts of that statement don't realise is that if you're not making a profit you're making a loss.

To add to this: if you aren't making a significant profit you're also making a loss. A small profit is actually an overall loss because of opportunity cost: opportunity cost of tying up money in inventory, opportunity cost of spending your time and energy running the business instead of working for someone else, etc. It's easy for a hobby business like a game store to limp along technically not losing money but also not making enough money for it to be worth doing. If you're only making $20k/year profit then you're better off working part time at your local Walmart instead. And you'd better be very careful you don't fall into the trap of investing more money in that barely-succeeding business and turning a small profit into a big loss.

(Of course the world of venture capital and massive annual losses plays by different rules, but if you're starting a conventional retail business you aren't living in that world.)

At this point I'm committed to continuing forward. As stated previously, I understand the risks and am giving it a chance. If I have to close and go find a work-from-home position I will. I'm not prideful enough to be completely self-destructive, but I would rather work with the industry and products I know best rather than work for someone else.