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Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




The change isn't made for balance reasons but its simultaneously clear that some units and loadouts, such as command squads, had internal balance issues anyway. I'm not convinced anyone would somehow manage to make all the admin models relevantly priced, as well as making all the special weapons priced to be reasonable against one another.

GW removed that issue in a ham-fisted manner. It's not a problem solved, it's a problem removed.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Dudeface wrote:
Jarms48 wrote:
I also still hate free weapons because they're clearly not equal. Who is ever going to take a sniper rifle, grenade launcher, or flamer?

So it's not just the options themselves being limited, it's the choices too.


That is still a choice.


That's not a choice, as everyone is just going to take the best option.
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Land Speeder Pilot




UK

Dudeface wrote:
The change isn't made for balance reasons but its simultaneously clear that some units and loadouts, such as command squads, had internal balance issues anyway. I'm not convinced anyone would somehow manage to make all the admin models relevantly priced, as well as making all the special weapons priced to be reasonable against one another.

GW removed that issue in a ham-fisted manner. It's not a problem solved, it's a problem removed.
GW doesn't care about internal balance though, they make it clear in their community articles that the aim is 50% win rate at faction level - over perform and get nerfed, under perform get buffed. If a flavour of the month unit is carrying your faction so be it.

Options are being deleted because that is GW's policy, the balance issue people are projecting over this is not being removed, it will be amplified. People will continue to gravitate towards what wins games and if there are fewer options it's just going to make armies even less diverse.
   
Made in ca
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin





Stasis

Jarms48 wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Jarms48 wrote:
I also still hate free weapons because they're clearly not equal. Who is ever going to take a sniper rifle, grenade launcher, or flamer?

So it's not just the options themselves being limited, it's the choices too.


That is still a choice.


That's not a choice, as everyone is just going to take the best option.


Or they'll take the ones they like best. I always take flamers, as many as possible.

213PL 60PL 12PL 9-17PL
(she/her) 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Insularum wrote:
GW doesn't care about internal balance though, they make it clear in their community articles that the aim is 50% win rate at faction level - over perform and get nerfed, under perform get buffed. If a flavour of the month unit is carrying your faction so be it.


Yep. If you saw the rumours, Guard has 5 super OP units for their cost. The rest is trash. Those are:
- Rough Riders: Super OP trade unit. Can do 17.5 wounds to a knight or kill 8 CSM terminators. Doesn't matter if they die. You just slam them into the most expensive unit, butcher it, die.
- Leman Russ: Executioner is the clear winner, TC with Gatekeeper is still great, Vanquisher is next but needs the RR hit trait, regular Battle Tank, then Demolisher. The rest is trash and not worth taking.
- Sentinels: Got even more annoying for their cost. More durable and faster. Don't care about damage. They're for blocking off areas and slowing down opponents.
- Kasrkins and Scions: Got a ton of small buffs, best infantry we have.

Everything else is sadly just okay or bad. These 4 will be what makes Guard win tournaments.
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




Jarms48 wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Jarms48 wrote:
I also still hate free weapons because they're clearly not equal. Who is ever going to take a sniper rifle, grenade launcher, or flamer?

So it's not just the options themselves being limited, it's the choices too.


That is still a choice.


That's not a choice, as everyone is just going to take the best option.


You're choosing to take the option you've mathematically decided is most efficient.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Dudeface wrote:
You're choosing to take the option you've mathematically decided is most efficient.


It's not what I've decided, math is constant.

Also looking at the rumours again, a ton of vehicle upgrades are gone too.
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




Jarms48 wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
You're choosing to take the option you've mathematically decided is most efficient.


It's not what I've decided, math is constant.

Also looking at the rumours again, a ton of vehicle upgrades are gone too.


You don't cover every little scenario in your tests, plasma/melta isn't an efficient return against a horde for example, flamers if you're closer will likely bag more hits than either which might be preferable. What you mean is you pick the most versatile with the greatest return against the optimal and numerous targets (marines). The point stands. You're choosing to pick that weapon, nobody is making you, you're not mandated to pick whatever the hotness of the day is, it's a choice.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




If there are no horde armies to worry about, and on top of that flamers with their random number of attacks are bad against horde, especialy if it has higher toughness then 3, then taking melta or plasma over the flamer is the better option. There is no choice involved, it is just the better option. Unless of course we assume that making bad picks or playing the units or even armies wrong, is a valid way to play. But what such an argument means in a discussion about rules, validity etc I just don't know. I mean what is next an argument, that the new IG are better, because they are not painted yet, while the older models are probably already painted. And somehow painting is more important then playing the game.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

Jarms48 wrote:
I also still hate free weapons because they're clearly not equal. Who is ever going to take a sniper rifle, grenade launcher, or flamer?

So it's not just the options themselves being limited, it's the choices too.


Your choices might be limited based on how you choose to play (ex; you're in a tourney & don't have the option to change weapons between games) or collect.

Mine? My options are the same as always.
● I don't play in tourneys.
● I've gone to the effort to have an extra model of each weapon type (including basic lasgun) painted up for each of my squads "special weapons trooper".
● I don't generally play random games. So i almost always know what I'll be facing. Against some foes the trusty plasma/melta will do. Againt others a flamer. Sometimes a sniper rifle....
● I have zero qualms about tailoring my weapon choices vs what I expect to face.
I've done it this way for many years.
The difference between then & now? Now I'm not paying pts per gun.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Jarms48 wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
You're choosing to take the option you've mathematically decided is most efficient.


It's not what I've decided, math is constant.

Also looking at the rumours again, a ton of vehicle upgrades are gone too.


Funny enough people still don't always take just the best option.

Funny that. People not all focused on "must win at all cost no other way to play exists!" mentality.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






ERJAK wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
"Patiently waits for a different wargame that focuses on tactics, or for 10th edition"


You won't be able to win at that one either.


Who gives a gak about winning if the game is not enjoyable? Give me a game where better tactics means you will win and i will enjoy it more than 9th ed even if i have a 100% lose rate
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

^^^^^^What Vlad said.
   
Made in us
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






Karol wrote:
If there are no horde armies to worry about, and on top of that flamers with their random number of attacks are bad against horde, especialy if it has higher toughness then 3, then taking melta or plasma over the flamer is the better option. There is no choice involved, it is just the better option. Unless of course we assume that making bad picks or playing the units or even armies wrong, is a valid way to play. But what such an argument means in a discussion about rules, validity etc I just don't know. I mean what is next an argument, that the new IG are better, because they are not painted yet, while the older models are probably already painted. And somehow painting is more important then playing the game.


please bring all meltas against my horde army, i'll love it
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




Karol wrote:
If there are no horde armies to worry about, and on top of that flamers with their random number of attacks are bad against horde, especialy if it has higher toughness then 3, then taking melta or plasma over the flamer is the better option. There is no choice involved, it is just the better option. Unless of course we assume that making bad picks or playing the units or even armies wrong, is a valid way to play. But what such an argument means in a discussion about rules, validity etc I just don't know. I mean what is next an argument, that the new IG are better, because they are not painted yet, while the older models are probably already painted. And somehow painting is more important then playing the game.


Why would you assume there won't be horde or chaff units to flame? You literally wrote all that after opening "if we discount an entire army type", which is a sure fire way to make certain its poor logic. Making a "bad" pick is valid because how do you define bad?
   
Made in hu
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





 VladimirHerzog wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
"Patiently waits for a different wargame that focuses on tactics, or for 10th edition"


You won't be able to win at that one either.


Who gives a gak about winning if the game is not enjoyable? Give me a game where better tactics means you will win and i will enjoy it more than 9th ed even if i have a 100% lose rate

I feel like this would be a case of "watch out what you wish for" if it actually came true.

My armies:
14000 points 
   
Made in us
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






 AtoMaki wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
"Patiently waits for a different wargame that focuses on tactics, or for 10th edition"


You won't be able to win at that one either.


Who gives a gak about winning if the game is not enjoyable? Give me a game where better tactics means you will win and i will enjoy it more than 9th ed even if i have a 100% lose rate

I feel like this would be a case of "watch out what you wish for" if it actually came true.


?

Like having a game where the factions played have less impact than the tactical skill of the player could ever be a bad thing?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




ccs wrote:
Jarms48 wrote:
I also still hate free weapons because they're clearly not equal. Who is ever going to take a sniper rifle, grenade launcher, or flamer?

So it's not just the options themselves being limited, it's the choices too.


Your choices might be limited based on how you choose to play (ex; you're in a tourney & don't have the option to change weapons between games) or collect.

Mine? My options are the same as always.
● I don't play in tourneys.
● I've gone to the effort to have an extra model of each weapon type (including basic lasgun) painted up for each of my squads "special weapons trooper".
● I don't generally play random games. So i almost always know what I'll be facing. Against some foes the trusty plasma/melta will do. Againt others a flamer. Sometimes a sniper rifle....
● I have zero qualms about tailoring my weapon choices vs what I expect to face.
I've done it this way for many years.
The difference between then & now? Now I'm not paying pts per gun.

What are you using Sniper Rifles to tailor for LOL

At the end of the day, ANY special weapon (besides the Sniper) is an upgrade, and any squad with it is better than a squad without it, yes?
   
Made in hu
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Spoiler:
 AtoMaki wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
"Patiently waits for a different wargame that focuses on tactics, or for 10th edition"


You won't be able to win at that one either.


Who gives a gak about winning if the game is not enjoyable? Give me a game where better tactics means you will win and i will enjoy it more than 9th ed even if i have a 100% lose rate

I feel like this would be a case of "watch out what you wish for" if it actually came true.


?

Like having a game where the factions played have less impact than the tactical skill of the player could ever be a bad thing?

Of course! In fact, that approach (emphasis on player skill) leads to the single most unfun game type: the sweaty one. I'm not even sure why you guys are up in arms vs 9th ed here, it is, actually, pretty close to what you want. I mean, like it or not stacking buffs into the stratosphere and setting up huge "gotcha" moments is (a kind of) tactical skill. You are basically wishing for 9th ed on overdrive.

My armies:
14000 points 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





9e is won by list stage. Not tactics. So 9e is super far from what he wish. Especially if you look at tournament try-hard lists whose guiding principle is "make player input irrelevant"

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





tneva82 wrote:
9e is won by list stage. Not tactics. So 9e is super far from what he wish. Especially if you look at tournament try-hard lists whose guiding principle is "make player input irrelevant"


I think a lot of casual lists try and do this as well, just tend to be worse at it.
Sometimes it’s a fun but awful unit that needs it to get any fun from it :(

GW design has also been a huge contribution to this. If I didn’t have fondness for the setting I wouldn’t be dragging my face though 9e
   
Made in fr
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot




 AtoMaki wrote:
Of course! In fact, that approach (emphasis on player skill) leads to the single most unfun game type: the sweaty one.


Um, what? How does an emphasis on player skill lead to "the single most unfun game type"?

I'm not even sure why you guys are up in arms vs 9th ed here, it is, actually, pretty close to what you want. I mean, like it or not stacking buffs into the stratosphere and setting up huge "gotcha" moments is (a kind of) tactical skill. You are basically wishing for 9th ed on overdrive.


Lol no. 9th edition buff stacking is "tactical skill" like knowing that 1+1=2 is math skill. Yes, by the strictest literal definition of the term it technically is. But it's an incredibly low level of skill where the correct answer is almost always obvious to anyone who isn't a newbie and the decision trees have all the depth of a puddle. It doesn't take a tactical genius (CREEEEEEEEEED!!!!!!) to know that yes, you should probably use the fight twice stratagem on your best melee unit every turn and it's even better if you stack it with the stratagem that gives double strength and the other stratagem that gives re-rolls to hit and wound. Or that maybe, just maybe, the weapon that does 12 mortal wounds on a 6 to hit might be a good combination with the character buff that gives you an automatic 6 to hit.

Honest question: have you ever played a non-GW game? If so, could you tell me which games and how much experience you had with them?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/09 07:53:10


 
   
Made in us
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






 AtoMaki wrote:

You can hate it all you want, but this is all player skill. Sure, it is indeed as deep as a puddle,


ok so you get it, you're just chosing to argue for argument's sake
   
Made in hu
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 AtoMaki wrote:

You can hate it all you want, but this is all player skill. Sure, it is indeed as deep as a puddle,


ok so you get it, you're just chosing to argue for argument's sake

It is more like I'm not arguing at all, just giving a fair warning.

My armies:
14000 points 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

EviscerationPlague wrote:
ccs wrote:
Jarms48 wrote:
I also still hate free weapons because they're clearly not equal. Who is ever going to take a sniper rifle, grenade launcher, or flamer?

So it's not just the options themselves being limited, it's the choices too.


Your choices might be limited based on how you choose to play (ex; you're in a tourney & don't have the option to change weapons between games) or collect.

Mine? My options are the same as always.
● I don't play in tourneys.
● I've gone to the effort to have an extra model of each weapon type (including basic lasgun) painted up for each of my squads "special weapons trooper".
● I don't generally play random games. So i almost always know what I'll be facing. Against some foes the trusty plasma/melta will do. Againt others a flamer. Sometimes a sniper rifle....
● I have zero qualms about tailoring my weapon choices vs what I expect to face.
I've done it this way for many years.
The difference between then & now? Now I'm not paying pts per gun.

What are you using Sniper Rifles to tailor for LOL


Forces that like their character models - GSC, SoB, other Guard. One particular UltraMarine (very annoying with all his medics, standard, LT, etc).
At least the ones I play against. Players of these forces in your area might not rely as heavily upon these characters, but I'm only concerned with who/what I play against.
I'll grant you that a Guard sniper rifle isn't the best weapon. But it's what I've got for the job I'm using it for & I'll just have to fish for 6s & hope the targets fail saves....
   
Made in us
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






ccs wrote:

Forces that like their character models - GSC, SoB, other Guard. One particular UltraMarine (very annoying with all his medics, standard, LT, etc).
At least the ones I play against. Players of these forces in your area might not rely as heavily upon these characters, but I'm only concerned with who/what I play against.
I'll grant you that a Guard sniper rifle isn't the best weapon. But it's what I've got for the job I'm using it for & I'll just have to fish for 6s & hope the targets fail saves....


i litterally have never killed a single character using snipers lol, that whole class of weapons is so terrible and fails to do its job.
   
Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






IIRC, the best sniper in the game for 8th and mmmmaybe 9th? Was an Autarch with the Dark reaper's missile launcher and the WLT to target characters.

Skaven - 4500
OBR - 4250
- 6800
- 4250
- 2750 
   
Made in us
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






 Thadin wrote:
IIRC, the best sniper in the game for 8th and mmmmaybe 9th? Was an Autarch with the Dark reaper's missile launcher and the WLT to target characters.


right now only the vindicare is kinda passable
   
Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






Yeah my point more being that the best sniper wasn't a sniper, it was a damn missile launcher

I liked running Eliminators in my not-terribly-competitive Ultramarines list. An annoying roadbump that can deploy in annoying spots potentially, with an okay threat to characters or vehicles depending on loadout. Also liked them when Aggressors and custodes or other 3 wound stuff was hot in my meta.

It would be nice to make snipers suitably threatening at their specific job, with an appropriate points cost to match. I feel like that the good sniper units have also been good at roles other than killing characters.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/11/09 18:47:55


Skaven - 4500
OBR - 4250
- 6800
- 4250
- 2750 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




ccs wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
ccs wrote:
Jarms48 wrote:
I also still hate free weapons because they're clearly not equal. Who is ever going to take a sniper rifle, grenade launcher, or flamer?

So it's not just the options themselves being limited, it's the choices too.


Your choices might be limited based on how you choose to play (ex; you're in a tourney & don't have the option to change weapons between games) or collect.

Mine? My options are the same as always.
● I don't play in tourneys.
● I've gone to the effort to have an extra model of each weapon type (including basic lasgun) painted up for each of my squads "special weapons trooper".
● I don't generally play random games. So i almost always know what I'll be facing. Against some foes the trusty plasma/melta will do. Againt others a flamer. Sometimes a sniper rifle....
● I have zero qualms about tailoring my weapon choices vs what I expect to face.
I've done it this way for many years.
The difference between then & now? Now I'm not paying pts per gun.

What are you using Sniper Rifles to tailor for LOL


Forces that like their character models - GSC, SoB, other Guard. One particular UltraMarine (very annoying with all his medics, standard, LT, etc).
At least the ones I play against. Players of these forces in your area might not rely as heavily upon these characters, but I'm only concerned with who/what I play against.
I'll grant you that a Guard sniper rifle isn't the best weapon. But it's what I've got for the job I'm using it for & I'll just have to fish for 6s & hope the targets fail saves....

What you described is attempted tailoring and actually realizing the weapon sucks for that job.

So I'll reiterate: what are you using Sniper Rifles to tailor for LOL
   
 
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