Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hecaton wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
So pumped that my MyDudes OOP metal steel legion and classic stormtrooper guard regiments supplied with full plasma loadouts from Ryza, and even some Ryza pattern tanks, Ryza the famed producer of plasma weapons, have been garbage canned.

2x 6 guardsmen special weapon squads with plasma: gone
3x 4 command squads with full plasma: gone
3x 4 tempestus scion command with full plasma or full melta: ????
4x 10 tempestus scion line squads with quad plasma or quad melta: split up ??


100% of those models are metal and 100% of them are OOP, and about 80% of the plasma wielders are converted because a steel legion or stormtrooper plasma gunner is $50 on eBay.


I feel like a huge idiot and GW just pulled the rug on me hardcore. Feth

Email them and post on their facebook.

Yeeeehhhh.......good luck with that. I can tell you from experience that you're just about as likely to get a response by spray painting your complaints on random overpasses.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Meanwhile, some have gone backwards. Raptor Champs can't get Lightning Claws anymore even though there are 5 (!) sets on the sprue. You can't even bring a full Chaos Terminator unit with power fists as they're limited to the bonkers 3 per 5 metric.

You and I both know that "NMNR" doesn't explain what they did to CSM. It's more like "You get what we say you get". There's no logic to it.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't think tying Command Squads back to Officers is the problem. It's the kit-based equipment restrictions that are the issue.

 alextroy wrote:
I will raise a glass in honor of your army, but don't cry us a river. We all saw this coming from a long way off.

Rules changes are common and to be expected. It's another entirely when those changes aren't borne of testing or fluff, but just what bits are on the sprue.

Sometimes they aren't even that. Look at all the Troops squads that allow 5-10 models that have suddenly can't get multiple special/heavy weapons unless they are at maximum unit size. Didn't use to be that way in most codexes.

GW is definitely moving to a different paradigm when it comes to unit options. Yes, it sucks for old models and units built under old rules. But it is the wave of the future... until they decide to move to yet another paradigm

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Meanwhile, some have gone backwards. Raptor Champs can't get Lightning Claws anymore even though there are 5 (!) sets on the sprue. You can't even bring a full Chaos Terminator unit with power fists as they're limited to the bonkers 3 per 5 metric.

Yup. It's really fethed up.

This raises another question. I have multiple unopened boxes of "5 guardsmen 5 bases" all monopose. They were 20$ when I bought them, and I thought it would be a good way to fill out squads. If GW went back to monopose options, where your models came with nothing but base weapons, for a cheaper cost, would that be an attractive option? I would much prefer to buy a pack of 5 basic troops with no specials or heavy options, for a reduced cost.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
This raises another question. I have multiple unopened boxes of "5 guardsmen 5 bases" all monopose. They were 20$ when I bought them, and I thought it would be a good way to fill out squads. If GW went back to monopose options, where your models came with nothing but base weapons, for a cheaper cost, would that be an attractive option? I would much prefer to buy a pack of 5 basic troops with no specials or heavy options, for a reduced cost.

As a simple number filler? I wouldn't mind at all, as long as they aren't super dynamic poses that make them stand out when you see multiple together.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
..., for a reduced cost.

Yeah, thats not a thing GW do much...

Back mostly on topic though. I'm not completely surprised, but moderately disappointed that they likely have changed the weapon restrictions/allowances on units that I have already assembled and painted. Along with the loss of veterans (a unit of which I converted somewhat) leaves me with potentially a fair few models that will need to be pulled apart so I can meet the new requirements, and the one remaining unopened box of Infantry, will have to wait till the codex is out before they get assembled (so I don't have to tear them apart later).

Is it the end of the world, no; somewhat inconvenient and annoying, very much so. I suppose I'll have to buy some stuff for another army to keep me going this winter instead. Ah well.

It was literally like Green Army men, except they were grey, and they had pre-milled bases that you slotted the model into, and painted. Hey presto, 5 new guardsmen with Lasrifles.

I'm sure some of the more talented members out there COULD do all sorts of arcane surgery to them and make them into something better.

Literally this product:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
It was literally like Green Army men, except they were grey, and they had pre-milled bases that you slotted the model into, and painted. Hey presto, 5 new guardsmen with Lasrifles.

I'm sure some of the more talented members out there COULD do all sorts of arcane surgery to them and make them into something better.

Literally this product:

About 75% of my traitor guard are from this kit...like 70 or so. Why they ever got rid of the box boggles the mind, oh wait no it doesnt.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If GW went back to monopose options, where your models came with nothing but base weapons, for a cheaper cost, would that be an attractive option?

My dream infantry box is something like what FW did with the DKoK: 10 infantry monopose models per box but *plot twist* there are three boxes for three different types of poses (relaxed, advancing, firing). Then make the models basic and low on detail so painting them doesn't feel like trying to solve a coloring puzzle, and we are there.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Votann shouldn't be outnumbering anyone. Can we re-examin the fluff that indicates their species is on verge of extinction?

If you understand the distinction between weather and climate, you should be able to find the flaw in that argument.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The argument is "you can make a unit from just what's in the box".

It also discourages buying parts from 3rd parties.

This, that's all it really is.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
They're not "invalidated" so much as the layout of the army changes.

Changing the layout of the army is invalidating it if you've built and painted your units as complete units, not a pile of random models that gets formed into different units for each game. But I suppose the WAAC meta chasers won't care about things like that as long as the new codex is good at winning games for a few months.

Two things

1. I've got a large guard army and I'm not sure how anything is any more invalidated by this then a simple point change. Unless you have the exact amount of models with weapons that came out to exactly 2k points in 9th, how is this any different then any other point change? just move around which weapons are in which squad or build your extra models as you have to buy additional boxes to spam plasma anyway. This really only changed anything if you were exactly on the dot points wise and at that point any basic point increase or decrease would also cause you to either buy more models or paint more.
2. As a non WAAC player I'm excited for changes, because who wants their army to be 100% identical to what we have been plying for like 3 years now. Why would you even buy a codex that changed nothing? what would be the point? why not just freeze all codexes/rules/models as any change will either invalidate a build/not allow you to bring the same thing/ or force you to get more models.

Personally I love guard so I'm always painting new special weapons and models so I can play my favorite army in all types of fun differing builds

Asmodios wrote:
2. As a non WAAC player I'm excited for changes, because who wants their army to be 100% identical to what we have been plying for like 3 years now. Why would you even buy a codex that changed nothing? what would be the point? why not just freeze all codexes/rules/models as any change will either invalidate a build/not allow you to bring the same thing/ or force you to get more models.

Or why not keep the options so you can change it whenever you want? This isn't increasing choice; this is removing it. How do you not understand that?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
2. As a non WAAC player I'm excited for changes, because who wants their army to be 100% identical to what we have been plying for like 3 years now. Why would you even buy a codex that changed nothing? what would be the point? why not just freeze all codexes/rules/models as any change will either invalidate a build/not allow you to bring the same thing/ or force you to get more models.

Or why not keep the options so you can change it whenever you want? This isn't increasing choice; this is removing it. How do you not understand that?

Its not removing anything all those plasma are still playable just not in the same squad together. No different then when they have switched unit sizes in the past or changed the points on something so you cant fit it into your list. People are acting like this is the equivalent to when they killed fantasy and well.... it just isnt. heck I've found it more annoying that I've had to change HWT base sizes... with squad loadouts i just have to change which models are standing next to each other in my display case

Some people equate needing to change their carefully mapped out and painted units as the end of the world... as if GW has been doing that to people for decades.

 alextroy wrote:
Some people equate needing to change their carefully mapped out and painted units as the end of the world... as if GW has been doing that to people for decades.

I don't think I've played any edition or codex change without having to change up something that no longer fits. I mean if people are mad about this I guess I should really be throwing a fit about my Yarrick and sentinels

Asmodios wrote:
1. I've got a large guard army and I'm not sure how anything is any more invalidated by this then a simple point change. Unless you have the exact amount of models with weapons that came out to exactly 2k points in 9th, how is this any different then any other point change? just move around which weapons are in which squad or build your extra models as you have to buy additional boxes to spam plasma anyway. This really only changed anything if you were exactly on the dot points wise and at that point any basic point increase or decrease would also cause you to either buy more models or paint more.

If points change but the same units remain legal than the specific unit I have built and painted to be a coherent unit can still be played. I may have to adjust which set of units from my 3000 point collection go into a 2000 point list but no single unit in that collection will ever be impossible to use.

If unit options change then the units are no longer valid. The models that are all painted as third squad complete with 3s on their shoulder pads can no longer be played together, all my units will have a random mix of numbers. Maybe that doesn't matter for the e-sport crowd, where models might as well be cardboard tokens, but for those of us who care about the lore and aesthetics of the game it's a huge problem.

2. As a non WAAC player I'm excited for changes, because who wants their army to be 100% identical to what we have been plying for like 3 years now. Why would you even buy a codex that changed nothing? what would be the point? why not just freeze all codexes/rules/models as any change will either invalidate a build/not allow you to bring the same thing/ or force you to get more models.

What would be the point indeed. Why do we need constant changes to the rules? Why do we need to be trapped in this constant cycle of change for the sake of change and endless $50 books that are no better than the last $50 book?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asmodios wrote:

I don't think I've played any edition or codex change without having to change up something that no longer fits. I mean if people are mad about this I guess I should really be throwing a fit about my Yarrick and sentinels

Yes, you should be mad about GW removing an iconic character just because they don't want to sell the model anymore.

And people are mad about this because it's such an absolutely ****ing stupid change. It isn't being done for fluff reasons, it isn't improving balance, it isn't making the game easier to play. It's purely that 20 years ago the sprue designer for the Catachan kit only put flamers on the sprue so now that's the only thing the unit can take despite a long history of Catachan infantry carrying all kinds of different weapons. It's completely inexcusable.

Oh, the 'by the box' rules are hitting a faction that isn't Chaos.

Hopefully this will help apply more pressure on GW to actually include more things in the box so that 10 guys with bolter/lasgun aren't supporting the 1 guy with the weapon that matters.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
1. I've got a large guard army and I'm not sure how anything is any more invalidated by this then a simple point change. Unless you have the exact amount of models with weapons that came out to exactly 2k points in 9th, how is this any different then any other point change? just move around which weapons are in which squad or build your extra models as you have to buy additional boxes to spam plasma anyway. This really only changed anything if you were exactly on the dot points wise and at that point any basic point increase or decrease would also cause you to either buy more models or paint more.

If points change but the same units remain legal than the specific unit I have built and painted to be a coherent unit can still be played. I may have to adjust which set of units from my 3000 point collection go into a 2000 point list but no single unit in that collection will ever be impossible to use.

If unit options change then the units are no longer valid. The models that are all painted as third squad complete with 3s on their shoulder pads can no longer be played together, all my units will have a random mix of numbers. Maybe that doesn't matter for the e-sport crowd, where models might as well be cardboard tokens, but for those of us who care about the lore and aesthetics of the game it's a huge problem.

2. As a non WAAC player I'm excited for changes, because who wants their army to be 100% identical to what we have been plying for like 3 years now. Why would you even buy a codex that changed nothing? what would be the point? why not just freeze all codexes/rules/models as any change will either invalidate a build/not allow you to bring the same thing/ or force you to get more models.

What would be the point indeed. Why do we need constant changes to the rules? Why do we need to be trapped in this constant cycle of change for the sake of change and endless $50 books that are no better than the last $50 book?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asmodios wrote:

I don't think I've played any edition or codex change without having to change up something that no longer fits. I mean if people are mad about this I guess I should really be throwing a fit about my Yarrick and sentinels

Yes, you should be mad about GW removing an iconic character just because they don't want to sell the model anymore.

And people are mad about this because it's such an absolutely ****ing stupid change. It isn't being done for fluff reasons, it isn't improving balance, it isn't making the game easier to play. It's purely that 20 years ago the sprue designer for the Catachan kit only put flamers on the sprue so now that's the only thing the unit can take despite a long history of Catachan infantry carrying all kinds of different weapons. It's completely inexcusable.

1.Good point with the squad numbers. My army definitely isn’t used like “cardboard markers” but I do have a generic symbol for my custom regiment but never marked squad numbers as I like to be able to change load outs on squads just to mix it up/add upgrades if playing a narrative campaign. I guess your option is to either mix match/repaint/ or simple paint more (paint more has always been my go to as it’s always fun to have more stuff)
2. I want stuff to change because games that don’t change will die out. This is just a fact of gaming. Not to mention if it never changed I’d eventually get board as well and want something fresh.
3. I got 15-20 years of service out of my sentinels and I’ll definitely still use them at times but am also looking forward to a new kit. As for yarrick one of my favorite things about guard is…. We die. That’s the point of the faction and it’s what draws me to them… their humanity. I’m glad GW is willing to kill off well established hero’s and not just have them have endless treatments to keep them alive (I’m just really hoping for a good book about his death). But just like the rules if GW never updated models the game would eventually die and the fact I can reliably get 15-20 years out of them and even still use them in most casual games after that is a better investment then any other hobby I’ve ever had. Maybe this all just seems so minor as i stare at 500 goblin models for a game that currently has been squatted

Asmodios wrote:
1.Good point with the squad numbers. My army definitely isn’t used like “cardboard markers” but I do have a generic symbol for my custom regiment but never marked squad numbers as I like to be able to change load outs on squads just to mix it up/add upgrades if playing a narrative campaign. I guess your option is to either mix match/repaint/ or simple paint more (paint more has always been my go to as it’s always fun to have more stuff)

Or there's a third option: GW doesn't make profoundly stupid changes to the game based on what a sprue designer a decade or more put into a specific box. I shouldn't have to choose the lesser of two evils when there was no good reason to force that choice.

2. I want stuff to change because games that don’t change will die out. This is just a fact of gaming. Not to mention if it never changed I’d eventually get board as well and want something fresh.

It's not a fact at all. Lots of games survive without constant changes. There's no reason to be stuck in the endless cycle of change for the sake of change and disposable $50 rulebooks, other than milking the cash cow of people constantly chasing the next shiny new thing. Get the game into a good state and call it done.

As for yarrick one of my favorite things about guard is…. We die. That’s the point of the faction and it’s what draws me to them… their humanity. I’m glad GW is willing to kill off well established hero’s and not just have them have endless treatments to keep them alive (I’m just really hoping for a good book about his death).

That might be a point except that GW has had no problem including dead characters in the game, and even allowing you to take two characters in the same army despite the fact that one had been dead for centuries before the other was born. And Yarricks "death" has nothing to do with lore, it's purely the consequence of GW getting rid of all of their metal and finecast models. If Yarrick had a plastic kit he'd still be in the new codex.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
1. I've got a large guard army and I'm not sure how anything is any more invalidated by this then a simple point change. Unless you have the exact amount of models with weapons that came out to exactly 2k points in 9th, how is this any different then any other point change? just move around which weapons are in which squad or build your extra models as you have to buy additional boxes to spam plasma anyway. This really only changed anything if you were exactly on the dot points wise and at that point any basic point increase or decrease would also cause you to either buy more models or paint more.

If points change but the same units remain legal than the specific unit I have built and painted to be a coherent unit can still be played. I may have to adjust which set of units from my 3000 point collection go into a 2000 point list but no single unit in that collection will ever be impossible to use.

If unit options change then the units are no longer valid. The models that are all painted as third squad complete with 3s on their shoulder pads can no longer be played together, all my units will have a random mix of numbers. Maybe that doesn't matter for the e-sport crowd, where models might as well be cardboard tokens, but for those of us who care about the lore and aesthetics of the game it's a huge problem.

All of my squads have extra models painted up to match so I can swap special/heavy/basic weapons in/out as needed.

Asmodios wrote:
Its not removing anything all those plasma are still playable just not in the same squad together. No different then when they have switched unit sizes in the past or changed the points on something so you cant fit it into your list. People are acting like this is the equivalent to when they killed fantasy and well.... it just isnt. heck I've found it more annoying that I've had to change HWT base sizes... with squad loadouts i just have to change which models are standing next to each other in my display case

Yeah but I could do all that before, already, because I had the choice. Now I have less choice.

You starting to get it yet?

GW kindly invalidating our collections is good, actually, because it gives us the opportunity to re-buy all our objects of jewel-like wonder.

I also still hate free weapons because they're clearly not equal. Who is ever going to take a sniper rifle, grenade launcher, or flamer?

So it's not just the options themselves being limited, it's the choices too.

Jarms48 wrote:
I also still hate free weapons because they're clearly not equal. Who is ever going to take a sniper rifle, grenade launcher, or flamer?

So it's not just the options themselves being limited, it's the choices too.

That is still a choice.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
Its not removing anything all those plasma are still playable just not in the same squad together. No different then when they have switched unit sizes in the past or changed the points on something so you cant fit it into your list. People are acting like this is the equivalent to when they killed fantasy and well.... it just isnt. heck I've found it more annoying that I've had to change HWT base sizes... with squad loadouts i just have to change which models are standing next to each other in my display case

Yeah but I could do all that before, already, because I had the choice. Now I have less choice.

You starting to get it yet?

And, restricting the options of all because some are poor sports is a poor reason. I dare say opinions will differ there depending on experience, but I still stand by it.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
1.Good point with the squad numbers. My army definitely isn’t used like “cardboard markers” but I do have a generic symbol for my custom regiment but never marked squad numbers as I like to be able to change load outs on squads just to mix it up/add upgrades if playing a narrative campaign. I guess your option is to either mix match/repaint/ or simple paint more (paint more has always been my go to as it’s always fun to have more stuff)

Or there's a third option: GW doesn't make profoundly stupid changes to the game based on what a sprue designer a decade or more put into a specific box. I shouldn't have to choose the lesser of two evils when there was no good reason to force that choice.

2. I want stuff to change because games that don’t change will die out. This is just a fact of gaming. Not to mention if it never changed I’d eventually get board as well and want something fresh.

It's not a fact at all. Lots of games survive without constant changes. There's no reason to be stuck in the endless cycle of change for the sake of change and disposable $50 rulebooks, other than milking the cash cow of people constantly chasing the next shiny new thing. Get the game into a good state and call it done.

As for yarrick one of my favorite things about guard is…. We die. That’s the point of the faction and it’s what draws me to them… their humanity. I’m glad GW is willing to kill off well established hero’s and not just have them have endless treatments to keep them alive (I’m just really hoping for a good book about his death).

That might be a point except that GW has had no problem including dead characters in the game, and even allowing you to take two characters in the same army despite the fact that one had been dead for centuries before the other was born. And Yarricks "death" has nothing to do with lore, it's purely the consequence of GW getting rid of all of their metal and finecast models. If Yarrick had a plastic kit he'd still be in the new codex.

See now your stating the game doesn’t need “constant” changes so in fact admitting a game does need changes to stay relevant. Considering we have been using the same codex for around 3 years now I’d say this doesn’t amount to “constant changes”. Yarrick was definitely killed off for lore reasons. If it was simply that they didn’t want to sell the old model they would have simply released a new kit. You have seen them do this with essentially every space marine character but guard characters are dropping like flies sense to time jump (which I believe is the right move)

 alextroy wrote:
Some people equate needing to change their carefully mapped out and painted units as the end of the world... as if GW has been doing that to people for decades.

If it took you 2-3 years to get all models you wanted for a 2000pts legal army, and now you are being told that around 1/4th of the army is illegal and you have to spend more money, you may not have right now, to play your army at the level you played it before, it is not hard to imagine that people are not happy about it. Also a chunk of the community has not been playing for decades. I can imagine that if someone has been playing for 30+ years they do not care, but if you started in 8th ed, had a horrible time with your army in 9th, and now you are told to rebuy it, you may feel as if someone dupped you to waste money and time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asmodios 807298 11452551 wrote:
Yarrick was definitely killed off for lore reasons. If it was simply that they didn’t want to sell the old model they would have simply released a new kit. You have seen them do this with essentially every space marine character but guard characters are dropping like flies sense to time jump (which I believe is the right move)

Wasn't Yarrik killed for the same reason everything else, which can't be labeled "made by GW" aka for trademark reasons.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
Its not removing anything all those plasma are still playable just not in the same squad together. No different then when they have switched unit sizes in the past or changed the points on something so you cant fit it into your list. People are acting like this is the equivalent to when they killed fantasy and well.... it just isnt. heck I've found it more annoying that I've had to change HWT base sizes... with squad loadouts i just have to change which models are standing next to each other in my display case

Yeah but I could do all that before, already, because I had the choice. Now I have less choice.

You starting to get it yet?

Obviously any restriction takes away choice. If we valued choice above all people would have loved the first iteration of AOS with no points or list building perimeters but that was a disaster. But people weren’t saying just slightly less choice they were saying their models were “invalidated”. They weren’t invalidated they would just adjusted in the way they get run like has happened with tons of point changes or unit size changes

Karol wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Some people equate needing to change their carefully mapped out and painted units as the end of the world... as if GW has been doing that to people for decades.

If it took you 2-3 years to get all models you wanted for a 2000pts legal army, and now you are being told that around 1/4th of the army is illegal and you have to spend more money, you may not have right now, to play your army at the level you played it before, it is not hard to imagine that people are not happy about it. Also a chunk of the community has not been playing for decades. I can imagine that if someone has been playing for 30+ years they do not care, but if you started in 8th ed, had a horrible time with your army in 9th, and now you are told to rebuy it, you may feel as if someone dupped you to waste money and time.

For good or ill, I've rarely seen a new codex where the best options in squads or squad load-outs haven't changed. That is just the way GW has been rolling for decades. Don't go all surprised Pikachu when GW does as GW has always done.

If is truly and outrage, there are many other games you can play. Otherwise, improvise, adapt and overcome. It's just a minatures game after all.