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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I keep forgetting Meta chasing is not Chic or in vogue with this board, oh wait, yes it is. Stop acting like it's a mortal sin to take the best options in a codex. I'm sorry my 8th Ed Guard faction didn't consist entirely of Scout Sentinels, Infantry Squads with Grenade launchers, and a command squad of Snipers, and a standard bearer.

Also, lets not bring the fluff into this. The Fluff dictates that we waste points of Commissars, almost never see a Lord Commissar below a full Regiment, and rarely if ever see a Space Marine.

Could you overreact any more? The point is the command squad isn't a special weapons squad. The command squad needs to be better so that it isn't just a special weapons squad. Because the last time I checked, military forces aren't run by.. *checks notes* the 4 cheapest employees with the biggest guns.


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Aecus Decimus wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
They're not "invalidated" so much as the layout of the army changes.

Changing the layout of the army is invalidating it if you've built and painted your units as complete units, not a pile of random models that gets formed into different units for each game. But I suppose the WAAC meta chasers won't care about things like that as long as the new codex is good at winning games for a few months.

Well yeah, if you've built an exact 2k army with no extra infantry etc based on the 8th ed codex, then yes, it'll be invalidated. Ultimately the shift to a new codex would facilitate point changes, different power units if that's your jam and likely a change of forces anyway.

Dudeface wrote:
Well yeah, if you've built an exact 2k army with no extra infantry etc based on the 8th ed codex, then yes, it'll be invalidated. Ultimately the shift to a new codex would facilitate point changes, different power units if that's your jam and likely a change of forces anyway.

I'm talking about units, not armies. Currently I have a veteran squad with 3x plasma guns and a missile launcher. They're built, painted, and based as a single unit with shared details and they are always played as that specific unit. Technically the models that make up those units can still be used for something but the unit is invalidated. I can no longer use them as their lore dictates, I have to stick the plasma guns in random squads where their aesthetic details don't match the rest of the unit, add the basic infantry to some other unit, etc. If all that was changing was the points I could add a new unit to fill in points, only play with some of my collection at once if points go up too much, etc. That would be fine but that's not what we're getting.

But, like I said, these are issues that the WAAC meta chasers don't care about so the new codex will be great as long as it's as overpowered as the squats.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Well yeah, if you've built an exact 2k army with no extra infantry etc based on the 8th ed codex, then yes, it'll be invalidated. Ultimately the shift to a new codex would facilitate point changes, different power units if that's your jam and likely a change of forces anyway.

I'm talking about units, not armies. Currently I have a veteran squad with 3x plasma guns and a missile launcher. They're built, painted, and based as a single unit with shared details and they are always played as that specific unit. Technically the models that make up those units can still be used for something but the unit is invalidated. I can no longer use them as their lore dictates, I have to stick the plasma guns in random squads where their aesthetic details don't match the rest of the unit, add the basic infantry to some other unit, etc.

But, like I said, these are issues that the WAAC meta chasers don't care about so the new codex will be great as long as it's as overpowered as the squats.

In honesty I doff my cap for that, the level of care and respect you've shown the force and models is next level and yes I am a little sad they've done that in a way that impacts you.

I agree though, if it was simply "I put 3 colour minimum on my guys and I'm sad because I can't spam as much plasma" then I have less sympathy as those players will just move on.

Dudeface wrote:
Because the last time I checked, military forces aren't run by.. *checks notes* the 4 cheapest employees with the biggest guns.

Whelp. You should check that again . But jokes aside, if MyDudes are indeed run by the 4 cheapest guardsmen with the biggest guns then what? It is as lore accurate as your vox+medic+banner squad, no telling which one is "better" because the official fluff won't judge us either way.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Because the last time I checked, military forces aren't run by.. *checks notes* the 4 cheapest employees with the biggest guns.

Whelp. You should check that again . But jokes aside, if MyDudes are indeed run by the 4 cheapest guardsmen with the biggest guns then what? It is as lore accurate as your vox+medic+banner squad, no telling which one is "better" because the official fluff won't judge us either way.

It kinda does:

A Company Command Squad accompanies the company's senior officer into combat, and its primary function is to direct the various units of the company in order to carry out the officer's orders[1a].

A typical Company Command Squad numbers five men, including the company officer. The Guardsmen who are selected to join the Command Squad are among the Company's most competent soldiers and have often displayed exceptional gallantry. Command Squad members can expect to receive additional training as specialised orderlies, such as medics or vox-operators[1a].

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Guard_Command_Squad sourced from IG 5th ed.

Edit: in fairness the 8th ed book has the same section in more or less but adds "many company Command Squads include grizzled special weapons operators" which I'd missed previously.

Well, MyDudes are not running that "typical" Command Squad. Now what? We are still well inside that fluff, even when considering the somewhat more leery description of the Command Squad in the 8th Ed codex.

 AtoMaki wrote:
Well, MyDudes are not running that "typical" Command Squad. Now what? We are still well inside that fluff, even when considering the somewhat more leery description of the Command Squad in the 8th Ed codex.

Yup, see the edit above, GW sort of shot themselves in the foot there.

It's all just rumours at this point - but with it coming from multiple sources and fitting GW's 9th ed approach it's pretty much 99% certainty that quite a lot of stuff will be culled in the new codex.

I'm expecting Guard to come out of this just like Chaos Marines, with lots of grumbling about invalidated collections of models, but at the same time having a codex rule set that is at least from a power level perspective in line with the rest of the game (even though parts of it feel like a slap in the face).

For those wondering which rumours to put faith in, GW's no models no rules stance seems to be based not just on a model existing, but:
A. The contents in the box can drive the datasheet options (even if the options exist elsewhere in the range)
B. The marketing description of the contents of the box can drive which units actually get datasheets (even if it is implied that a specialist squad is just built out of other models in the range)

So - for Scions they are advertised as being able to build either a squad or command squad, I expect the units will survive in some form, but they only have 1 of each weapon option per 5 in the box so will likely receive hefty restrictions. For other units, GW does not actively advertise any of its guard sets as being generic veterans or special weapons squads - they will be retconned out of existence even though we all know how to actually build these units.

Delete, mispost

So pumped that my MyDudes OOP metal steel legion and classic stormtrooper guard regiments supplied with full plasma loadouts from Ryza, and even some Ryza pattern tanks, Ryza the famed producer of plasma weapons, have been garbage canned.

2x 6 guardsmen special weapon squads with plasma: gone
3x 4 command squads with full plasma: gone
3x 4 tempestus scion command with full plasma or full melta: ????
4x 10 tempestus scion line squads with quad plasma or quad melta: split up ??


100% of those models are metal and 100% of them are OOP, and about 80% of the plasma wielders are converted because a steel legion or stormtrooper plasma gunner is $50 on eBay.


I feel like a huge idiot and GW just pulled the rug on me hardcore. Feth

Yeah, it's kinda like saying that Marines no longer have the ability to use Thunder hammers, simply because only 1 can be used per strike force. It's a dumb short sighted rule that invalidates YEARS of hobby work for many players. I personally have a fully Sniper'd out command squad that I used to play as a Gaunt's Ghosts sort of squad. I even had a lord Commissar next to them with a power sword and bolt Pistol.

I guess I should have called this. I did ask for a full 100% re-structuring of how IG works back before half way thru 9th. Now we're seeing it. Half of people's forces just got legended.

I have 6 Kasrikin units. 2 have quad-Melta. 2 have quad-Plasma. 1 has quad-Grenade Launcher and the final one has quad-flamers. I own multiple 4 special command squads of every type (except plasma). I have multiple Special Weapon squads, both plastic Cadian (with scratch-built demo-charges - those were fun!) and Mordian Iron Guard.

Invalidating is still invalidating, no matter how you dress it up.

Dandelion wrote:
Command squad plasma spam was dumb anyway...

A rousing argument full of nuance and conviction.

If you didn't like it, you didn't have to take it. You considering it "dumb" does not constitute a good reason for getting rid of it. I used to love my x4 Flamer and x4 Melta command squads. Hell, I even had some level of affection for 4 Grenade Launcher command squads. They were a way to concentrate firepower in an extremely fragile package, a great example of risk vs reward. And you call it "dumb".

And let's not kid ourselves here, if the report is true and you really can't take more than 1 of any type of special weapon within a Command Squad, then GW haven't done this because it was "dumb" or any other in-game reason. They've done it just because those are the options on the new Command Squad sprue. There is no other reason.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So does anyone give any credence to the rumor that Scions will be heavily restricted, as in, you cannot spam Plasma Command squads or load up on SW/HWs anymore? I mean, at this point why even keep them as a separate sub faction? Why not just make them a full on Guard Elites slot choice? The only reason I spent the time building up and painting Melta and Plasma death squads was because it was the only good option for their play style. I really hope this isn't true, as it invalidates the entire reason for taking a super troopers with ultra special weapons. Now they are just slightly overcosted veterans.

Do you think Guard need SW/HW restrictions? Were Command Squads broken?

That's a very good question. Why are Stormtroopers a sub-faction? Terminators aren't a sub-faction, Striking Scorpions aren't a sub-faction, Crisis Suits aren't a sub-faction...

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Why are Stormtroopers a sub-faction?

Because they made a new kit, included command options, and had a new book to sell.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

If you didn't like it, you didn't have to take it.

Well, I never did take it, so..? Anyway, the special weapons spam completely overshadowed the command gear and discouraged use of the flag for example. I personally think that’s a shame. Besides, GW deliberately nerfed command squad spam in 8th because they didn’t like it either, so clearly it was on their radar at some point.

Now, me being in favor of restricting command squads does not mean I’m a fan of getting rid of special weapons squads. Those should have stayed.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
That's a very good question. Why are Stormtroopers a sub-faction? Terminators aren't a sub-faction, Striking Scorpions aren't a sub-faction, Crisis Suits aren't a sub-faction...

It's a relic of the weird 6-7th edition obsession with making as many different codices as possible, like how admech used to be two separate books for Reasons.


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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Half of people's forces just got legended.

Or worse. TBH we'll be lucky if they're only legendsed. Given GW's commitment to never updating or supporting legends options we probably won't even get that much, we'll be stuck hoping people allow fan rules to keep playing with existing units.

While I feel for everyone who's carefully built and painted army gets invalidated by GWs latest codex restrictions, are any of you surprised? GW has been invalidating units and models with just about every edition of every codex for at least 4 editions.

I will raise a glass in honor of your army, but don't cry us a river. We all saw this coming from a long way off.

 alextroy wrote:
While I feel for everyone who's carefully built and painted army gets invalidated by GWs latest codex restrictions, are any of you surprised? GW has been invalidating units and models with just about every edition of every codex for at least 4 editions.

I will raise a glass in honor of your army, but don't cry us a river. We all saw this coming from a long way off.

And some of us have been unhappy about it since the 9th edition nonsense started, for all armies. It's stupid with guard, it's stupid with admech, it's stupid with CSM, all of it is inexcusable.

Dandelion wrote:
Command squad plasma spam was dumb anyway, so I’d be glad to have it gone.

I know, right?

Imagine the audacity of having elite gunners in your Command Squad. As opposed to 'bloke with a radio with less range and use than a pair of walkie-talkies', 'bloke who tries to stick a bandage on the pile of blood and cartilage that used to be Sgt. Tooslow.'

Perhaps for bonus points we could add 'bloke trying to stand still and aim a crummy sniper rifle while the rest of the squad wants to stay mobile' and 'bloke waving a flag around, to help guide enemy artillery and snipers onto the commander'.

Dandelion wrote:
Command squads will still be played because they are the HQ choice now.

"You'll use them not because they're good or because you want to but because you have to."

What a wonderful attitude for unit design.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
That's a very good question. Why are Stormtroopers a sub-faction? Terminators aren't a sub-faction, Striking Scorpions aren't a sub-faction, Crisis Suits aren't a sub-faction...

It's a relic of the weird 6-7th edition obsession with making as many different codices as possible, like how admech used to be two separate books for Reasons.

I know. I was being sarcastic about the rhetorical question in the original post.

Merging officers and command squads back together is great. Not sure why it’s a problem?

I don't think tying Command Squads back to Officers is the problem. It's the kit-based equipment restrictions that are the issue.

 alextroy wrote:
I will raise a glass in honor of your army, but don't cry us a river. We all saw this coming from a long way off.

Rules changes are common and to be expected. It's another entirely when those changes aren't borne of testing or fluff, but just what bits are on the sprue.

I still don't get the "It's all that's on the spru" arguement. Because that implies GW doesn't want to force you to buy multiple kits to make "the best option". That was the implied argument when I had to buy multiple boxes of command squads to make a single squad of all meltas or Plasma. Why sell one box when you can more easily sell 4? It makes zero financial sense. GW is many things, but averse to screwing over their consumer in the pursuit of greater profits is not one of them. They will always choose profits over player satisfaction.

The argument is "you can make a unit from just what's in the box".

It also discourages buying parts from 3rd parties.

My comment was aimed at Vipoid because he decided to make a straw man… poorly. There was originally a claim that you wouldn’t see command squads anymore due to the restrictions, I made a minor comment that since they’re the HQs now of course they’d still see play.
Admittedly it’s nit picky, but it also wasn’t even the primary focus of my comment.

In any case, my feelings on the matter are that I just dislike command squads being suicide drops. Allowing full special weapons encouraged that play style so I am glad it’s being toned down.
The other part, is that thematically I don’t think it makes sense. The command squad is ostensibly there to help command things first and foremost. Hence the radio that can issue orders as well as the flag to improve morale.
That is of course merely my opinion.

Ok, but then why does GW sell literal packs of bits for Guard? You can buy packs of plasma, melta, flamers, or anything really. I don't know if that's still a thing, but it was on the GW store last time I checked which was 2021. I remember it was odd, because I literally thought, who wants full Sniper Rifle units? Then Gaunt's Ghosts dropped and I was like, oh.

Dudeface wrote:
I feel this is just an inflammatory thread really, it's so heavily baited to just make people spam the usual comments I wonder what else could have been intended.

That's Fezzik's MO. And if anyone shows clearly how what they're saying has no relation to reality they block you to avoid copping to it.


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 ph34r wrote:
So pumped that my MyDudes OOP metal steel legion and classic stormtrooper guard regiments supplied with full plasma loadouts from Ryza, and even some Ryza pattern tanks, Ryza the famed producer of plasma weapons, have been garbage canned.

2x 6 guardsmen special weapon squads with plasma: gone
3x 4 command squads with full plasma: gone
3x 4 tempestus scion command with full plasma or full melta: ????
4x 10 tempestus scion line squads with quad plasma or quad melta: split up ??


100% of those models are metal and 100% of them are OOP, and about 80% of the plasma wielders are converted because a steel legion or stormtrooper plasma gunner is $50 on eBay.


I feel like a huge idiot and GW just pulled the rug on me hardcore. Feth

Email them and post on their facebook.

Sisters have managed to dodge the "Only what comes in the box" thing so far. Retributors can still take 4 of the same heavy weapon even though the kit only comes with 2 of each. They did restrict Sisters from taking multiple specials in a 5-girl BSS though, despite the BSS kit having FOUR of each special weapon (mostly because the kit also builds Dominion squads).

As to why that's relevant, I think it means there's hope that Scions might dodge that bullet as well.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Sisters have managed to dodge the "Only what comes in the box" thing so far. Retributors can still take 4 of the same heavy weapon even though the kit only comes with 2 of each. They did restrict Sisters from taking multiple specials in a 5-girl BSS though, despite the BSS kit having FOUR of each special weapon (mostly because the kit also builds Dominion squads).

As to why that's relevant, I think it means there's hope that Scions might dodge that bullet as well.

Havocs and Devastators have too iirc.

Meanwhile, some have gone backwards. Raptor Champs can't get Lightning Claws anymore even though there are 5 (!) sets on the sprue. You can't even bring a full Chaos Terminator unit with power fists as they're limited to the bonkers 3 per 5 metric.