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Nah the Leagues are materialistic to the extreme and if a planet has something they want they'll get it any way they can.
Trade agreements are preferred to war but if they do get to mining they will literally mine the planet to death without a care for who lives there.
"Oh your planet's mantel is unstable and every continent keeps having massive earthquakes that cause huge sinkholes? Damn shame. Hey, you wanna see my cool rock?"

 Gert wrote:
Their souls aren't shielded though, they just don't have "normal" ones. They're naturally weaker, likely as a result of them being artifical lifeforms (Artificial in the sense that they are made via technology and not through natural reproductive means).

In the codex they are described as having souls that are engineered to be dimmer, "hardened souls" and as having "hardened spirits" in the origins and adaptations section- p12 and 13. This gives them protection against being corrupted by Chaos, it's speculated that this was done on purpose to protect them from some threat.

But you are right that they don't shine as brightly as human souls for example. Definitely sound like Men of Stone.

So did they get eaten by the tyrranids or not?

 Dekskull wrote:
So did they get eaten by the tyrranids or not?

They didn't. The Leagues had a lot of trouble with Tyranids, to the point "Tyranids ate them" was a rumour that got spread which the Imperium decided was fact despite not actually knowing that was the case. Even the Tau were convinced that the Demiurg ships they'd encountered were the last of their species.

 Dekskull wrote:
So did they get eaten by the tyrranids or not?

They seem to have a healthy respect for them and refer to them as “the Bane”. I also really like that some leagues actively follow splinter fleets to harvest their resources!

gravitywell wrote:

I've read some people online saying the new Kin are not very grimdark for the 40k universe... but this seems like just a starting point with lots of great directions they could go. I think we'll get a lot more interesting stuff. Honestly the old Squat lore, other than chaos corruption, was pretty clean.

That is kind of what the Guilds are for. The mentioning of the uncaring exploitation of celestial objects, with Guilds sometimes starting wars and commiting atrocities close to genocide in order to gather resources, is Grimdark enough in my book.

It even harkens back to becoming satirical again, with the guilds most definitely being an allegory to real life oil-, Logging-, and Mining Corporations. I even spot hints at Guilds "meddling" with the Votannic Council and Hearthspakes, in a similar way that modern governments have with lobbyists.

Another slightly greyer look at the Leagues' Philosophy; Kin is Kin, but not everyone is Kin, and the Leagues seemingly don't care about non-Kin unless they have something they want.

Squats being eaten by Tyranids was never quite official... too my knowledge nothing was published, but Jervis Johnson mused about it online:

In the end (and it took years to really get to the roots of the problem) this led to a realisation that we were going to have to drop the Squats in their 'Squat' form from the 40K background. There was little point having a major race that we weren't willing to make an army book for, and their inclusion in the background meant that people kept asking us when we'd do a Squat Codex. Instead we decided that we'd write the Squats out of the background by saying that their Homworlds had been devoured by a Tyranid Hivefleet. This would give us the option in the future to return to making a race based ont he Squat archetype for 40K. This race was given the name of Demiurg, and a certain amount of preliminary work was done to get a 'feel' for what the race would be like. At present the only hint of the Demiurg in 40K is the Demiurg spaceship for BFG. However, we do have this race 'in our back pocket' as a possible new race for 40K, or an interesting character model in Inquisitor, or whatever. So far the Demiurg have lost out to other projects, and it may be that their time never actually comes, as they will have to win through on their merits, not simply because we once made some Squat models in the past. At present, I have to say that it is more lilely that they *don't* make the cut than do, as there is a certain predudice these days to simply taking races from Warhammer and cross them over to 40K like we did in the early days, so it may be that the Squats/Demiurg end up remaining a footnote in the history of the 40K galaxy. Only time will tell...

I think when they wrote up Leagues of Votann lore they wanted to make sure they made clear the relationship with the Tyranids, since so many people thought it was official that the squats got eaten. The new lore looks interesting - that note about harvesting the tail end of a hive fleet is pretty cool and fits with portraying the Kin as resource focused or opportunists.

Yes it was published. It was in the new added foreword of the old Ian Watson Inquisitor novel.

Is it not implied the Homeworlds that got scoffed off Tyranids were simply worlds the Imperium knew about? As in those who actively and regularly traded. The Imperial assumption being That’s All The Squats That Ever Were?

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Dekskull wrote:
So did they get eaten by the tyrranids or not?

They didn't. The Leagues had a lot of trouble with Tyranids, to the point "Tyranids ate them" was a rumour that got spread which the Imperium decided was fact despite not actually knowing that was the case. Even the Tau were convinced that the Demiurg ships they'd encountered were the last of their species.

That's awesome that they incorporated that into the new lore! Respect for the Nids!

They are showing how in-universe characters have limited information. The galaxy is a vast place and players have a privileged out of universe perspective on things. The Imperium is also shaped by its bigotry and ignorance, so knowledge is looked upon with suspicion particularly knowledge about xenos (or those that could pass for xenos like the Kin). Even differences that seem blatantly obvious to us, like that between Craftworlders and Cormorrites, are routinely missed by Imperials since the vast majority have never been inclined to inquire and learn more beyond "kill the xenos".

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Is it not implied the Homeworlds that got scoffed off Tyranids were simply worlds the Imperium knew about? As in those who actively and regularly traded. The Imperial assumption being That’s All The Squats That Ever Were?

More or less, with the Necromunda Squats and one of the other worlds being seen as exceptions that were the last few holds. The galactic core is difficult to traverse and the Imperium has "a bit too much on" to be keeping track of every xenos race mucking about. GW are using the rift to say well now the Leagues are out and about due to all the business. Like I said, they've done a solid job of combining everything of the past lore and into the new stuff. There's no massive "retcons" or whatever, beyond the fact they aren't dead after all of course.

 Segersgia wrote:

gravitywell wrote:

I've read some people online saying the new Kin are not very grimdark for the 40k universe... but this seems like just a starting point with lots of great directions they could go. I think we'll get a lot more interesting stuff. Honestly the old Squat lore, other than chaos corruption, was pretty clean.

That is kind of what the Guilds are for. The mentioning of the uncaring exploitation of celestial objects, with Guilds sometimes starting wars and commiting atrocities close to genocide in order to gather resources, is Grimdark enough in my book.

It even harkens back to becoming satirical again, with the guilds most definitely being an allegory to real life oil-, Logging-, and Mining Corporations. I even spot hints at Guilds "meddling" with the Votannic Council and Hearthspakes, in a similar way that modern governments have with lobbyists.

Another slightly greyer look at the Leagues' Philosophy; Kin is Kin, but not everyone is Kin, and the Leagues seemingly don't care about non-Kin unless they have something they want.

Pretty much yep, they will happily crush anyone in the way if it means they get resources, even former allies.

I have to say, I despair at this "grimdark" bollocks, as if that is all 40k has to offer. This kept being thrown at the Leagues as if it is somehow a bad thing and it isn't even true. It's such a naive understanding of the background and the predominant theme of 40k. It's no wonder you see it constantly talked about on reddit.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Is it not implied the Homeworlds that got scoffed off Tyranids were simply worlds the Imperium knew about? As in those who actively and regularly traded. The Imperial assumption being That’s All The Squats That Ever Were?

The loremaster video didn't say it was a particular event / certain holds being wiped out that made the Imperium being distinct, and i've not seen that actually mentioned in any of the things i've read posted about the Leagues. It seems to just be a vague "They had trouble with Tyranids" rather than "These specific Leagues got wiped out" as being the cause.

 Gert wrote:
Their souls aren't shielded though, they just don't have "normal" ones. They're naturally weaker, likely as a result of them being artifical lifeforms (Artificial in the sense that they are made via technology and not through natural reproductive means).

Sounds like some Primarch I know.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Boosykes wrote:
Why would a clone race even have genitals. They have a single hole for waste removal that's it. Think chickens without the eggs.

Because the bits and bobs are useful for hormonal balance. Ask any pre-menopausal woman that’s had a hysterectomy, or a bloke who’s lost his goolies.

Not needing them for reproduction doesn’t equate to not needing them. Plus, it’s a genetic engineering job that’s….largely pointless. You gain nothing by removing them, so why bother?

And also sex is fun? And partner bonding through sex is mentally stimulating and leads to all kinds of emotional and resource support?

And also, what else are they going to get up to while their ships and mining vehicles are randomly wandering around looking for the next big score?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and when the poor Votann is alone and down and sees no way out, lies naked in their sleep pod about to end it all, and then thinks "well, just once more for old time' sake", and after a short time feels much better about their situation

Iracundus wrote:
Yes it was published. It was in the new added foreword of the old Ian Watson Inquisitor novel.

Oh cool, I had read they completely removed the Squat character and re-wrote him as a Techpriest, but I didn't know the forword had something about it as well. I guess they've retconned that retcon.

 Flinty wrote:
and when the poor Votann is alone and down and sees no way out, lies naked in their sleep pod about to end it all, and then thinks "well, just once more for old time' sake", and after a short time feels much better about their situation

Hey man, I brought this up for discussion about the old Squats, new LoV, lore etc... not fuel for internet fan-fics! Ah well, I suppose it's the internet and would have happened anyway...

gravitywell wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
Yes it was published. It was in the new added foreword of the old Ian Watson Inquisitor novel.

Oh cool, I had read they completely removed the Squat character and re-wrote him as a Techpriest, but I didn't know the forword had something about it as well. I guess they've retconned that retcon.

What you are referring to was the rewriting they did for the short story in the Deathwing anthology where Grimm the Squat originally first appeared. That was possible to do since he was a minor character whose background was insignificant to the dialogue and plot of that short story. However that was not possible to do for the novel Inquisitor as Grimm plays a far more significant role and his background as a Squat is effectively an integral part of the plot that is not possible to so easily rewrite. So they added the foreword.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBDs8EvUBFo&list=RDCMUCDCx2SP6thl7r42CkTdblLA&index=1

I know new chaos squats are “rare indeed” but the could look awesome.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Is it not implied the Homeworlds that got scoffed off Tyranids were simply worlds the Imperium knew about? As in those who actively and regularly traded. The Imperial assumption being That’s All The Squats That Ever Were?

The loremaster video didn't say it was a particular event / certain holds being wiped out that made the Imperium being distinct, and i've not seen that actually mentioned in any of the things i've read posted about the Leagues. It seems to just be a vague "They had trouble with Tyranids" rather than "These specific Leagues got wiped out" as being the cause.

So, going through the codex and old Squat lore earlier today.

The original Squat Leagues were the League of Thor, League of Kapellar, League of Norgyr and the League of Emberg.

We can assume that the League of Thor has become the Greater Thurian League, who are Team Teal. The Kapellan League is briefly mentioned in that their Votann slowly degenerated until it seems to have died. Interestingly, they were once the most sizeable League, so they clearly suffered badly. In the old lore the Norgyr were meant to be those closest to Terra, but there's not much mention of that now.

As Mentlegen points out, The League of Emberg are called the Emberg-Aegnir Bloc and it was these that were eradicated by Leviathan. The old Squat lore said that had only 4 strongholds and that is matched by the codex saying they had a few kindred. Presumably they expanded a bit in the interim. They were all killed trying to defend their Votann. The Squats go through a ritual process known as returning to the Ancestors. In this case it was paramount to stop the swarm devouring them. The idea is that the dead are offered up to be recycled and to enrich the Votann with their data. In this case, the pain and death drove the Votann insane. The codex says that all know to leave the beacon alone as it projects its tortured mind. Quite an interesting ironic story in with parallels between the Squat computers and the Hive Mind. It would make a great book if GW ever decided to get someone to write it.

And this Returning to the Ancestors is also the reason behind the Votann failing. There being so much data added to the computers that they are becoming a bit odd.

Given that the Kapellan League disintegrated and the Emberg were monched, that basically explains the reason behind the Squat "disappearance". Given that the Imperium on the whole can't find it's arse with a map, losing some Squats isn't a difficult thing to explain.

Like I say, they did a good job of tying up the various loose ends and the new background.

What is now the Greater Thurian League was always considered the most powerful, with numerous kinbands. But it is only recently that they have expanded out of the core.

However, they also make mention that many kindreds and minor Leagues have left to delve into Far Space and they are known as Prospects. Given that these are more expeditionary, it's a fairly simple way of explaining their different gear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Flinty wrote:


And also sex is fun? And partner bonding through sex is mentally stimulating and leads to all kinds of emotional and resource support?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Also I'm glad you said this Flinty, I was going to reply about this earlier. I was going to write something similar but I couldn't do it in a way that wasn't deeply sarcastic

I wouldn't be shocked if at some point we were to get a second wave of LoV models that included a more lightly armoured mercenaries unit that were a bit more of that traditional look as a unit.

 The Phazer wrote:
I wouldn't be shocked if at some point we were to get a second wave of LoV models that included a more lightly armoured mercenaries unit that were a bit more of that traditional look as a unit.

This!

Though another idea that I would also love is to take the design approach of the Horus Heresy; the Old Design of the Squats is how they looked during the Horus Heresy and the new Design is their 40k counterpart. I remember Forge World approaching their design philosophy by saying that they basically update Rogue Trader/ 2nd Edition kits.

Smaller side note - this is my headcanon for updated models. The Old Designs were canon, but current designs are their new gear. It explains the redesigns of the newer Guard kits to me.

 The Phazer wrote:
I wouldn't be shocked if at some point we were to get a second wave of LoV models that included a more lightly armoured mercenaries unit that were a bit more of that traditional look as a unit.

Hopefully that's why there's art of them in the codex.

The Leagues are lacking much in the way of dedicated military units at the moment, outside of the Kahl and Einhyr.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 The Phazer wrote:
I wouldn't be shocked if at some point we were to get a second wave of LoV models that included a more lightly armoured mercenaries unit that were a bit more of that traditional look as a unit.

Hopefully that's why there's art of them in the codex.

The Leagues are lacking much in the way of dedicated military units at the moment, outside of the Kahl and Einhyr.

Yeah, I've read a few places people wondering why most units seem like repurposed miners or explorers... where is the LoV military? When you think of WH40K artwork showing the glorious clash of amassed forces, you don't necessarily think of miners that hastily grabbed some gear to join the fight.

Some more units... big tanks, flyer, huge ironkyn might work. I think an old school mercenary/conscript squad would definitely fit... it could sell just for the nostalgia. Here is an image from WD111 showing the old combat squad (looks like they are taking a selfie, lol). The blurb of text is interesting since a unit that could take little or lots of heavier weapons might feel unique and fit thematically.

Personaly I see all this Chaos is a result of the several battels of Galgotha.

Galgotha Was a Kin/Squat homeworld thats strenght was all the verius leages working together with the planet a a mass factory and traiding hub.

of coarse the planets stenght was alos its downfall. infighting between fractions on planet and then betrayal by trusted alieis affectivly finishing the place off.

I think the serviving would have taken a very harsh lession from Galgotha

"you cant reily on otheres, even other Humans. so its every leage stands allown. yes we help each other cus we are all 'Kin' but home 1st"

Another thing to consider is that mabie not all leages have acess to all the known stable mutations.
also The Squats are said in there back ground to have traided for centuies with other alein races traiding magor tec back and forth.

Also whille

Demiurg - Tua
Heliosi Ancients, - Eldar
Gnostari
Grome
Kerg - Solar Master Macarius bombed these peps to hell.

are a few name the put in the book thate a a couple more that should be there to. These are the names of other 'abb-hummans'
Squat
Ogrin
Ratling

and these are also related to the Votann

also that last one the Kerg.... they are the fore father's of another couple of races in lore... Namly the Jericco (space monkeys) and the the exsporitor navigator (unkown Aqatic. Space dolphins?)

Will be intresting seeing what retcons they feal they need to do to the Ancients, as they are discribed as Men of Iron ranging in size of that of a child to that of a scout titan.

gravitywell wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 The Phazer wrote:
I wouldn't be shocked if at some point we were to get a second wave of LoV models that included a more lightly armoured mercenaries unit that were a bit more of that traditional look as a unit.

Hopefully that's why there's art of them in the codex.

The Leagues are lacking much in the way of dedicated military units at the moment, outside of the Kahl and Einhyr.

Yeah, I've read a few places people wondering why most units seem like repurposed miners or explorers... where is the LoV military? When you think of WH40K artwork showing the glorious clash of amassed forces, you don't necessarily think of miners that hastily grabbed some gear to join the fight.

Some more units... big tanks, flyer, huge ironkyn might work. I think an old school mercenary/conscript squad would definitely fit... it could sell just for the nostalgia. Here is an image from WD111 showing the old combat squad (looks like they are taking a selfie, lol). The blurb of text is interesting since a unit that could take little or lots of heavier weapons might feel unique and fit thematically.

Here is there unit entry in the army list. Only weapon they could “all” have is a heavy bolter, but in 1st edition that was pretty potent. 1 other could have another heavy weapon.

Morty_Jhones wrote:
Personaly I see all this Chaos is a result of the several battels of Galgotha.

Galgotha Was a Kin/Squat homeworld thats strenght was all the verius leages working together with the planet a a mass factory and traiding hub.

of coarse the planets stenght was alos its downfall. infighting between fractions on planet and then betrayal by trusted alieis affectivly finishing the place off.

I think the serviving would have taken a very harsh lession from Galgotha

"you cant reily on otheres, even other Humans. so its every leage stands allown. yes we help each other cus we are all 'Kin' but home 1st"

Another thing to consider is that mabie not all leages have acess to all the known stable mutations.
also The Squats are said in there back ground to have traided for centuies with other alein races traiding magor tec back and forth.

Also whille

Demiurg - Tua
Heliosi Ancients, - Eldar
Gnostari
Grome
Kerg - Solar Master Macarius bombed these peps to hell.

are a few name the put in the book thate a a couple more that should be there to. These are the names of other 'abb-hummans'
Squat
Ogrin
Ratling

and these are also related to the Votann

also that last one the Kerg.... they are the fore father's of another couple of races in lore... Namly the Jericco (space monkeys) and the the exsporitor navigator (unkown Aqatic. Space dolphins?)

Will be intresting seeing what retcons they feal they need to do to the Ancients, as they are discribed as Men of Iron ranging in size of that of a child to that of a scout titan.

What you're saying doesn't make a lot of sense and isn't supported by the lore.

The Ogryn and Ratlings have absolutely nothing to do with the Leagues. There is no reason their names should be there, they're not related to the Votann.

The Kreg aren't who created the Jokero. The Old Ones/Slaan created the Jokero and other races. The Kreg are a species that got mentioned in like a paragraph in the Eldar Codex, and it now turns out that it was just another name for the Leagues.

No idea what you mean with "The Ancients" being Men of Iron, either.

Hah. I see that poor copy control was a problem back then too. Crack grenades indeed! Unless of course they had a really special grenade type

Kyn, Ratlings, Ogryns, (some) Beastmen do have a loosely common root, all being examples of Abhuman.

However, Kyn for now remain the odd one out, as we know their Abhuman status to be by genetic design (akin to Space Marines I suppose) than random mutation.

It is possible the others were by design initially. Given the 38,000 years between now and 40K, let alone the 28,000 years between now and The Great Crusade when they were confirmed to exist is super short in terms of evolution. Of course, we’ve no real world equivalent of a species being transplanted to a planet with differing environmental conditions including gravity etc.

But saying that, there is an old story from Inferno! where a quadruped species of Abhuman feature, and whilst I’ve not read it in probably 20 years, I think they knew their history, and were indeed the result of deliberate genetic engineering to have bodies more suited to their world.

However the Votann are the only Abhuman sub-species to still be actively practice such tinkering.

Oh, and House Goliath, which straddle the line between human and Abhuman, and are absolutely, unequivocally the result of genetic tampering.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Kyn, Ratlings, Ogryns, (some) Beastmen do have a loosely common root, all being examples of Abhuman.

However, Kyn for now remain the odd one out, as we know their Abhuman status to be by genetic design (akin to Space Marines I suppose) than random mutation.

It is possible the others were by design initially. Given the 38,000 years between now and 40K, let alone the 28,000 years between now and The Great Crusade when they were confirmed to exist is super short in terms of evolution. Of course, we’ve no real world equivalent of a species being transplanted to a planet with differing environmental conditions including gravity etc.

But saying that, there is an old story from Inferno! where a quadruped species of Abhuman feature, and whilst I’ve not read it in probably 20 years, I think they knew their history, and were indeed the result of deliberate genetic engineering to have bodies more suited to their world.

However the Votann are the only Abhuman sub-species to still be actively practice such tinkering.

Oh, and House Goliath, which straddle the line between human and Abhuman, and are absolutely, unequivocally the result of genetic tampering.

I'm pretty sure the cat girls were genetically designed as well. Probably by Musk

Two quick notes on abhuman biology:

First, it has long been implied in 40k that many abhuman strains originally were the result of genetic engineering. The sudden jump in human evolution, and the man-play-god themes of the Dark Age of Technology both point to this. Especially after the DAoT, when surviving genetors were scraping together what knowledge and tech remained to better help their people survive in alien environs or against enemy tribes after the apocalypse.

Scientist remnants during the Age of Strife in particular should be read as producing a great many Frankenstein freaks, most of which were purged by the Great Crusade. The artificial origin of the unlucky Afriel strain (being a similar tale of amateurish genetor craft from the Age of Imperium) echoes this.

Second, the ongoing genetic engineering with cloneskeins among Kin should be read in the context of slow Dwarven procreation in fiction since Tolkien: Thus, we have no reason to assume that Kin cannot and do not breed naturally, unless given background references to the contrary. After all, Squat survival in dire emergencies would require functional procreation, anything else would be un-Dwarven. But regardless, the vast majority are produced in cloneskeins. This is a logical, systematic and ancestor-deferential Dwarven solution to their Tolkien issues, given the science fiction tools at their disposal.