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So I recently saw a YouTuber make this argument that the Lion was being really smart in attacking the Traitor homeworlds and disrupting their supply lines instead of going to Terra. Stating emphatically that this is sound military strategy as opposed to converging on Terra to beat Horus which would be a cartoonish and stupid thing. Clearly assuming that this is like a game of Hearts of Iron where things like “supply lines” matter.

Well they don’t in 40k. Horus has clearly just went all in and due to the metaphysical nature of 40k if he kills the Emperor in a ritualised fashion then he wins. Chaos will consume the galaxy.

We even see in one of the books that the Traitors don’t care about their homeworlds being destroyed. I think some white dwarf articles are now retconning that and there is an inconsistency between Slaves to Darkness and the other books like Buried Dagger. But you have to be very selective with which books you pick to conclude that the Lion attacking those “vital” and “strategically important” supply lines is a good idea. Again it’s not HOI4. Horus has minus 100 percent attrition and does not need resupply. He’s just dumped five hundred divisions on a single tile and can force a capitulation. Whilst the Lion is just snaking about in the middle of nowhere.

Even if you use some semblance of military strategy. This isn’t a conventional siege. It’s an assault that will achieve an immediate and decisive outcome in a few days. If the enemy army is at your capital. If his hands are about your throat. That’s your priority. Horus has brought all the logistics, weapons and war machines with him. When do you ever hear about the traitors being resupplied? Clearly just throwing them at the walls to grind them down. Not to mention the whole unleashing the armies of hell on the walls..

Like every traitor army that matters is on Terra. Those that have left have deserted the Warmaster and can be dealt with later.

So losing three Primarchs and their Legions is a huge problem for the Loyalists. Especially because they’re praying for that relief to show up.

Also, this is a massive plot hole. If the traitors were reliant on slow moving supply ships (which they aren’t BTW) going to Terra. Then why is it that Guilliman and his big armada can’t just warp to Terra?

Really I think it’s just an excuse to keep the loyalist Primarchs off Terra when all the logistics stuff is irrelevant since it has no impact on the course of the story. It’s not quite as bad as Sanguinius getting to Terra months ahead of Guilliman when they set out together; but it’s pretty close.

Plus, it would remove any narrative tension of the Loyalist reinforcements arriving if that weren’t the decisive factor. Is Horus really going to break or fail his siege because he can’t (somehow) ship some additional tanks and bolt shells from distant worlds.

Not to mention they have Mars and the whole Solar System to make whatever they need anyway. Why bother shipping stuff in when you have the biggest Forgeworld in the Galaxy?

This might be the first time I've seen someone argue so passionately that logistics aren't important for an army

Sure 40K and a LOT of fantasy in general is pretty poor with the concept of army logistics. For GW I put it down to the fact that they don't make logistics models (outside of a few transport ships for BFG when it was around); so they don't focus on logistics in their stories and lore. As a result you end up with them ignoring or glossing over them to the point where you can easily forget that the army has huge logistical trains behind them.


IT can also undermine when GW then creates a force that doesn't rely on traditional logistics to operate - eg Chaos armies able to sustain themsleves with Warp and Demonic influence beyond the means of their logistical support. Because its hard to separate when its something warped or strange happening or when its just GW focusing on the heat of the battle and not really focusing on the logistical side.





That said if you study any real sieges they very rarely breach the walls and charge in like mad. Many will see walls defeat vast armies because attacking walls and fortifications is freakishly expensive in bodies that you have to throw at them. As a result many are more starve them out campaigns and thus not only do you deny the fortress their logistics from outside; but you also ensure that your sieging forces have good logistics and supplies. Ammo to keep pounding the defences; bodies to replace those lost if you attack the walls; food so that your troops are alive when they come to make an attack etc...

The Lion burned the Traitor homeworlds because he couldn't get to Terra not because of supply lines. He knew he wouldn't reach the Throneworld in time to impact the Siege so decided the next best choice was to ruin any chance of the Traitors having strongholds to fall back to if the Loyalist won or to deny a powerful source of recruits and supplies (while dealing a healthy dose of vengeance as well) if the Traitors won.
He still did send a force to aid Terra under Corswain.
Dorn also knew there was no chance that his brothers would reach Terra in time. All his plans accounted for their absence and it was literally just hope that they could show up. There was no real belief amongst the Astartes and higher echelons of Imperial command that any other Legions would be able to help break the Siege.

The only instance where logistics would matter in 30K/40K would be a dedicated Axis & Allies/Warhammer hybrid boardgame.

Also, this is a massive plot hole. If the traitors were reliant on slow moving supply ships (which they aren’t BTW) going to Terra. Then why is it that Guilliman and his big armada can’t just warp to Terra?

This one at least isn't as big a plot hole as it might be - warp storms aren't purely neutral turbulence but created or at least affected by the ruinous powers and in this era were quite selective in whose travel plans they were screwing up. Its not that loyalists couldn't jump and traitors could but outside of major stable warp routes traitor fleets with corrupted navigators and cultists were MUCH more strategically mobile.


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 Strg Alt wrote:
The only instance where logistics would matter in 30K/40K would be a dedicated Axis & Allies/Warhammer hybrid boardgame.

Ironically the Horus Heresy boardgame is basically that - it's the siege of terra and includes supply points in particular spaces, and cutting lines of supply (which the Khan is extremely good at, unsurprisingly) is one of the best way to kill something scary.

The lion destroying the traitors supply lines is one of the most important things for the end of the heresy. He forces horus' hand in making a play for the throne world before he necessarily wants to.

Horus might have vast armies all together in one place but without resupply him and his generals know that they have one and only one shot. It also affects the morale of the forces under the warmaster banner. Theres multiple mentions of the "oh f***, the dark angels are coming" as this threat that's utterly massacring Horus empire behind their front lines.

It also prevents the creation of the Daemon worldw and hell forges that the traitors are creating, which it left unchecked would turn the rest of the galaxy into a warped hellscape whether or not Horus actually succeeds.

Tldr the lions strategy is one of the most important plays in the end of the war and makes a ton of sense. It's more Russ that messes things up by getting his legion obliterated in his play on horus' life, where he gets cold feet and fails last minute.

I think it’s important to note that the Dark Angels were part of a three pronged attack. Upon emerging from the Ruinstorm, the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Ultramarine concluded that all three could not make it to Terra in time for the siege. Instead the Blood angels would attack towards terra to break into the siege. The Ultramarines began an broad frontal assault to put maximum pressure on the traitors and allowing the Blood angels to push through at a concentrated location. The Dark Angels in turn backtracked to the traitor homeworlds to burn them.

The ultramarines already have the numbers and supplies to overwhelm the traitor rear guard. The Iron Warriors had to ration bolter shells in their fighting retreat to the siege. An extra half a legion would not speed up this approach.

Destroying the traitor homeworlds also acts as an insurance policy. Even if Terra falls, the traitors will only secure a charred husk and lack any ability to hold it with their recruitment worlds destroyed. Meanwhile the loyalists still have theirs and will come back stronger.

Coral makes a bit of sense since the Raven Guard no longer had the strength to count for even a half legion after the dropsite massacre and alpha legion shenanigans. Their gurilla campaign provided a greater impact than a few dregs manning the walls.

Russ makes arguably the least sense since he just YOLO’s into Horus. The best you can get is that wounding Horus ends up being relevant for morale and the duel on the Vengeful Spirit.

The reality is though that the initial heresy was written as a rapid series of events. The new story drug it out over a more reasonable amount of time. The real issue is everyone needed focus and relevancy and that made the plot convoluted. Traditionally the shattered legion’s story ends at Istvaan and legions like the Ultramarines were more of a side show. The expanded content had to make everyone relevant but then had to set up the siege as we know it.

Bobug wrote:
The lion destroying the traitors supply lines is one of the most important things for the end of the heresy. He forces horus' hand in making a play for the throne world before he necessarily wants to.

Horus might have vast armies all together in one place but without resupply him and his generals know that they have one and only one shot. It also affects the morale of the forces under the warmaster banner. Theres multiple mentions of the "oh f***, the dark angels are coming" as this threat that's utterly massacring Horus empire behind their front lines.

It also prevents the creation of the Daemon worldw and hell forges that the traitors are creating, which it left unchecked would turn the rest of the galaxy into a warped hellscape whether or not Horus actually succeeds.

Tldr the lions strategy is one of the most important plays in the end of the war and makes a ton of sense. It's more Russ that messes things up by getting his legion obliterated in his play on horus' life, where he gets cold feet and fails last minute.

1) Show don’t tell. There’s no suggestion in Siege of Terra that they are being resupplied or that this has any impact on the narrative. The story is laid out very clearly that the Loyalists need to get reinforcements there. Implicitly, it is a complete waste of time destroying the Traitor homeworlds as the Lion did.

2) The Imperium is a million plus worlds stretched out across the Galaxy. Attacking symbolic worlds like Barbarus ans Chemos has no material value and wouldn’t impact the Industrial capacity of half the Galaxy. Per Slaves to Darkness the hope was that the Traitors would draw their armies away from the assault on Terra. It is flatly states they don’t care in that novel. Later White Dwarf articles attempted to retcon this.

3) Killing space marines is more important than reducing bolt shell production by 0.1 percent.

4) He has access to endless Daemons. It is not resource intensive to do this either.

It’s an excuse for why it took seven years for the Lion to get to Terra. It’s a reason that superficially makes sense until you realise that it has nothing to do with the story being told. This is Helms Deep. The assault is ongoing and what matters is the tide being turned. In no way has this been a story about logistics or supply lines. Any mention of that in a white dwarf article is just filler. This is why we haven’t had any POV or even mention of this super important supply line smashing campaign in the siege of Terra books. If it was so important and crippling to the Traitor cause it would be mentioned.

I think you need to check the timeline chief.
The Lion begins his purge of the Traitor homeworlds in 012.M31 and it lasts until 013.M31. In that time Barbarus, Chemos, and Cthonia are razed. The tactical reasoning for this is sound on the Lion's behalf as he is cutting the Traitor's supply lines and ensuring they don't have powerful pocket empires to either retreat to or draw new forces from. It's not just the Traitor homeworlds that the Lion destroys either but a host of other Horus-aligned systems are either burned or retaken.
He doesn't know how many of his Traitor brothers have abandoned the concerns of the material realm because at that time the only known Daemon Primarch was Angron and his homeworld was already destroyed by the World Eaters and Word Bearers. The Lion doesn't know Horus doesn't care how many worlds he loses anymore because prior to this Horus was an excellent tactician and would ensure that worlds vital to the Traitor war effort were conquered and ones that would prove to be problems taken out of play through siege tactics, such as at Baal, Inwit, and Nocturne.
You the Reader know that Horus has moved from winning the Heresy to playing the Great Game but the Loyalist characters in-universe don't. The Siege of Terra begins at the beginning of 014.M31 and the Sol system is surrounded by Warp Storms mimicking the Ruinstorm. Guilliman and the Lion both start racing to Terra the moment the Ruinstorm fades.
As for the Siege books, they're about the Siege, which happens after the Lion burns the Traitor homeworlds. They can't be in the books because it's already happened and the Traitors no longer care (so why would they mention it) and the Loyalists don't know it's happened (so why would they mention it).

We need to check the Forge World black books, they are written in a less story driven way and more like an actual military report about the campaigns they cover. Is there any word about that in them ? Obviously the Black Library books won't tell about supply lines etc
They never did
And it's fine like that, it's not their purpose.
But maybe we can find some information about that from Forge World ? Unfortunately I only own the first three books, which isn't going to help us here

Forge World didn't get that far into the timeline in any real detail.
Considering the Lion's campaign is being covered in WD it's unlikely it will be covered elsewhere.

 godardc wrote:
We need to check the Forge World black books, they are written in a less story driven way and more like an actual military report about the campaigns they cover. Is there any word about that in them ? Obviously the Black Library books won't tell about supply lines etc
They never did
And it's fine like that, it's not their purpose.
But maybe we can find some information about that from Forge World ? Unfortunately I only own the first three books, which isn't going to help us here

Yeah the Black Books never got that far in the timeline.

I think the furthest they got was Thramas and Signus Prime. Still really just the early Heresy.

Just as an aside, with Heresy 2.0 focusing so much on the Siege it really leaves a big gap in those 7 years. Like I got whiplash when you read the second White Scars novel and they just tell you they’ve been at war the whole time.

It isn't focusing on the Siege though. Like at all. The first thing done in relation to HH 2 was the WHW diorama of the Siege of Cthonia which started in the early years of the Heresy and only ended when the Lion glassed it just before the Traitors launched for Terra. Until we start getting campaign books such as with AT or og HH then there isn't actually a timeline focus.

AT has given a bunch of background and there are stories to be told that don't involve God-Engines.so if they apply that level of background jn a specialist game, lets hope they put more resources into the new 3rd leg of the stool and give us CAMPAIGN books.

 Gert wrote:
The Lion burned the Traitor homeworlds because he couldn't get to Terra not because of supply lines. He knew he wouldn't reach the Throneworld in time to impact the Siege so decided the next best choice was to ruin any chance of the Traitors having strongholds to fall back to if the Loyalist won or to deny a powerful source of recruits and supplies (while dealing a healthy dose of vengeance as well) if the Traitors won.
He still did send a force to aid Terra under Corswain.
Dorn also knew there was no chance that his brothers would reach Terra in time. All his plans accounted for their absence and it was literally just hope that they could show up. There was no real belief amongst the Astartes and higher echelons of Imperial command that any other Legions would be able to help break the Siege.

This. The Dark Angels and their chums were placed for Cavalry Raids well behind enemy lines. Regardless of Terra’s outcome, the Traitors would have no home to go back to. And they were always going to suffer a mauling win or lose. By wrecking their home worlds, they were denied them as safe havens to rearm and recruit to replace losses, or indeed just to retreat to in the hope any pursuers were likewise in no position for any meaningful attack.

And to be honest, it was the best use of resources at the time. Given the scale of attack needed for a head on assault of Terra, only relative token forces could be left behind to tend the hearth, leaving them more vulnerable than ever before to a Legion scale assault. You’re not going to get that sort of opportunity again in a hurry, if ever. It was a golden opportunity to launch potentially crippling blows to the Traitors, and it had to be taken.

Keeping with What Ifs?, those actions would also have been temptational cause for Traitor Primarchs to fragment their forces, or even redirect entirely from assaulting Terra. That they didn’t is testament both to Horus’ control and of course their own madness.

I think we can also describe it as a sort of encircling of the Traitor forces. Not literally of course, but it ensured where the Traitors were focussed on one front, the war was now being fought on two fronts.