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the question will be if there is a regular release or if this will be just a made to order

no model release at the beginning would be bad, yet an old model release is not better given a big reason why mean people did not invest during 8th was the missing updated of core units

a starter box with new models and a book release might have been the best option as i don't think any newcomer is going to order the old stuff while the people who are going to buy to fill their collection is limited

lurch wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
How long before we see one of the MDF companies producing mvoement trays with 20mm slots spaced to work as 25mm bases, do you think?
Flush with the front, 5mm spacer between bases, 2,5mm at the flanks. Shouldn't be tricky to design.

they already exist for a game called Oathmark charlie foxtrot models makes them
https://www.charliefoxtrotmodels.com/blogs/news/new-releases-movement-tray-for-20mm-bases-oathmark-size
But your probably right in that we will se a lot more companies making them.

Overread wrote:Thing is if the bases are going up in size then you can get away just keeping them on the same bases and using movement trays of the correct size with small slots in for your models.

the big problem with those solutions is that it makes it very hard to change formation as expanding from 5 files to 7 during melee you either need to have another regimentsbase with 7 files or you need to keep the space manually
both are not practical during gameplay (there is a reason why R&F games with formation changes uses multi-bases instead of single model bases)

one simple solution is to use magnets and 25mm sheets under the bases, or multibases with spaces for 4 models (2x2) on a tray

 streetsamurai wrote:
After all, they wouldnt bring back these kits if they intend to replace them in a few years.

Why not? For plastic models, at least, these are kits that should have fully-functional molds ready to go, so the only cost to GW is in new packaging (and maybe modern assembly instructions). I would imagine most - if not all - of those molds made their investment back when they were originally in production, so from GWs perspective, they won't be losing anything if/when they're replaced with a newer kit down the line.

As long as they're clear as to whether certain kits will be replaced eventually, even the consumer isn't losing out - they can buy kits to get started with TOW, or hold off on certain units knowing there will be newer models coming later.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Could be a starter box in the fall, and army boxes of the old armies in place of holiday battalions, and then push for new models next year

Why would the cut out one of their biggest sellers of the year for that?

Production capability?

Never, not for such big sellers. I have this horrible feeling people are vastly over estimating just how much support this is going to get.

Delete

 Dysartes wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
After all, they wouldnt bring back these kits if they intend to replace them in a few years.

Why not? For plastic models, at least, these are kits that should have fully-functional molds ready to go, so the only cost to GW is in new packaging (and maybe modern assembly instructions). I would imagine most - if not all - of those molds made their investment back when they were originally in production, so from GWs perspective, they won't be losing anything if/when they're replaced with a newer kit down the line.

As long as they're clear as to whether certain kits will be replaced eventually, even the consumer isn't losing out - they can buy kits to get started with TOW, or hold off on certain units knowing there will be newer models coming later.

That would be a horrible pr/marketing move by GW. Imagine releasing these old kits, and replacing them a year or 2 afterward. People who bought them would be furious, it wpuld cause a gakstorm. GW management is pretty competent since kirby left, so id be very surprised to see them doing such a rookie mistake

Edit: just saw that you wrote that if GW is transparent about it, it's no big deal. And yes, on that, i agree with you. If thats the case, i might change my opinion, but i think its really farfetched

 streetsamurai wrote:
That would be a horrible pr move by GW. Imagine releasing these old kits, and replacing them a year or 2 afterward. People who bought them would be furious, it wpuld cause a gakstorm. GW management is pretty competent since kirby left, so id be very surprised to see them doing such a rookie mistake

Why would it? Even though they'd be brought back, they're still old kits that should be replaced at some point. I don't see why the situation would be any different than any of the other times they've updated and replaced kits. As long as those old models aren't entirely invalidated it shouldn't really be a problem.

 streetsamurai wrote:

bobthe4th wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
After all, they wouldnt bring back these kits if they intend to replace them in a few years.

That doesn't make any sense. GW aren't going to rework every faction straight away, and this way they can still sell models until they do.

It does make sense if you actually read what i posted. I dont expect them to release all 12 armies (if not more) day one. But them releasing old kits alongside new ones (they showed renders of new brettonians) pretty muc proves that at least some armies will be a mishmash of decades old kits and new kits (and GW being GW, i shudder just thinking at the price theyll put on these old garbage) . As i said, if its acceptable to some people, cool for them, but that doesn't interest me, especially since theres a few alternative games that have full armies that are all pretty new.

So you really would prefer just 2 playable armies to begin with with maybe army per year if that rate for new?

So to get all armies back to TOW we would be looking at 2030 or so maybe. Of course by that time it would be TOW 2nd or 3rd edition.

Of course, every kit is bound to be replaced. But if it gets done too soon, people who bought the old kits will be understandably upset. If your old enough, you just have to rebember how upset people were when they were churning out books that were outdated a few months after. Now, it's true that its different for minis, since the old minis are still usable, but the new kits will look so much better that theyll be esthetically obsolete, hence the anger

tneva82 wrote:
So you really would prefer just 2 playable armies to begin with with maybe army per year if that rate for new?

who said there should be no rules for other armies at the start?

or do you think not a single person who wants to start that game does not have an army and needs to buy a new one to start?
if this is not for the nostalgia but just for all new people who have never played Warhammer or AoS before, this would be a very strange release

 streetsamurai wrote:
Of course, every kit is bound to be replaced. But if it gets done too soon, people who bought the old kits will be understandably upset. If your old enough, you just have to rebember how upset people were when they were churning out books that were outdated a few months after. Now, it's true that its different for minis, since the old minis are still usable, but the new kits will look so much better that theyll be aesthetically obsolete, hence the anger

They're just as "aesthetically obsolete" as any of the other updates models have got and will get over the years. Regardless of how long it was the Cadian update or the Tyranid update or any of the others made peoples purchased models outdated. If they were brand new kits being replaced (like what sort of happened with the Cadian upgrade sprue) than sure, I could understand it, but when it's a decade+ release that by design standards is already obsolete regardless of that being the 'current' kit, I don't see that much issue.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
Of course, every kit is bound to be replaced. But if it gets done too soon, people who bought the old kits will be understandably upset. If your old enough, you just have to rebember how upset people were when they were churning out books that were outdated a few months after. Now, it's true that its different for minis, since the old minis are still usable, but the new kits will look so much better that theyll be aesthetically obsolete, hence the anger

They're just as "aesthetically obsolete" as any of the other updates models have got and will get over the years. Regardless of how long it was the Cadian update or the Tyranid update or any of the others made peoples purchased models outdated. If they were brand new kits being replaced (like what sort of happened with the Cadian upgrade sprue) than sure, I could understand it, but when it's a decade+ release that by design standards is already obsolete regardless of that being the 'current' kit, I don't see that much issue.

You really think that people wont be upset if they spend hundreds if not thousands on kits, and spend multiple hours gluing, painting and basing them, only to see them replaced by much much better looking ones a few months later?

Like really?

As i said before, if GW is transparent about it, than fair game, but as i said, i find this whole scenario of GW re releasing old kits only to replace them shortly after very farfetched

Are units such as Melusai likely to get rules in TOW?

Very unlikely. AoS exclusive stuff will stay there.

 streetsamurai wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
Of course, every kit is bound to be replaced. But if it gets done too soon, people who bought the old kits will be understandably upset. If your old enough, you just have to rebember how upset people were when they were churning out books that were outdated a few months after. Now, it's true that its different for minis, since the old minis are still usable, but the new kits will look so much better that theyll be aesthetically obsolete, hence the anger

They're just as "aesthetically obsolete" as any of the other updates models have got and will get over the years. Regardless of how long it was the Cadian update or the Tyranid update or any of the others made peoples purchased models outdated. If they were brand new kits being replaced (like what sort of happened with the Cadian upgrade sprue) than sure, I could understand it, but when it's a decade+ release that by design standards is already obsolete regardless of that being the 'current' kit, I don't see that much issue.

You really think that people wont be upset if they spend hundreds if not thousands on kits, and spend multiple hours gluing, painting and basing them, only to see them replaced by much much better looking ones a few months later?

Like really?

As i said before, if GW is transparent about it, than fair game, but as i said, i find this whole scenario of GW re releasing old kits only to replace them shortly after very farfetched

That's an issue that can happen at practically any point if the kit has been out for a while, however. I don't see a difference between that situation and someone getting into Tyranids just a few months ago and finding now that they're being replaced and their models are outdated. Yes, some would obviously be unhappy, but they are old kits and that's just what happens eventually.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
Of course, every kit is bound to be replaced. But if it gets done too soon, people who bought the old kits will be understandably upset. If your old enough, you just have to rebember how upset people were when they were churning out books that were outdated a few months after. Now, it's true that its different for minis, since the old minis are still usable, but the new kits will look so much better that theyll be aesthetically obsolete, hence the anger

They're just as "aesthetically obsolete" as any of the other updates models have got and will get over the years. Regardless of how long it was the Cadian update or the Tyranid update or any of the others made peoples purchased models outdated. If they were brand new kits being replaced (like what sort of happened with the Cadian upgrade sprue) than sure, I could understand it, but when it's a decade+ release that by design standards is already obsolete regardless of that being the 'current' kit, I don't see that much issue.

You really think that people wont be upset if they spend hundreds if not thousands on kits, and spend multiple hours gluing, painting and basing them, only to see them replaced by much much better looking ones a few months later?

Like really?

As i said before, if GW is transparent about it, than fair game, but as i said, i find this whole scenario of GW re releasing old kits only to replace them shortly after very farfetched

That's an issue that can happen at practically any point if the kit has been out for a while, however. I don't see a difference between that situation and someone getting into Tyranids just a few months ago and finding now that they're being replaced and their models are outdated. Yes, some would obviously be unhappy, but they are old kits and that's just what happens eventually.

I think its a very different situation (old kit always being sold vs old kit getting re released), but it seems that we have a different perspective on the situation.

Cool enough

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Regardless of how long it was the Cadian update or the Tyranid update or any of the others made peoples purchased models outdated. If they were brand new kits being replaced (like what sort of happened with the Cadian upgrade sprue) than sure, I could understand it, but when it's a decade+ release that by design standards is already obsolete regardless of that being the 'current' kit, I don't see that much issue.

the problem is a different one here, as Cadia got all new models
so you either have the old range with a consistent design or the new range with a consistent design

just imagine that with the new book, there would have been the new heavy weapons, new tanks and new artillery, but the core troopers would have stayed the old ones with the upgrade sprue
and next year the new core troopers release, now again with a different design as the new heavy weapons, tanks and artillery
or Tyranids now getting all new units except Gaunts, which will be added next year when everyone with a new army already got the old ones

this is the status of nearly all warhammer armies, core troops being from a different design and age as the special units and if there is now a new release just updating the core, you end up again with an inconsistent design

and this will case rage

 streetsamurai wrote:
Of course, every kit is bound to be replaced. But if it gets done too soon, people who bought the old kits will be understandably upset. If your old enough, you just have to rebember how upset people were when they were churning out books that were outdated a few months after.

Old enough? They did that this year!



IMO, models are different. There's a case for MTO or direct sales of old WFB models with the game launch, because the ranges aren't going to be instant, and people know that they'll be buying into a possible model reboot.
And models, unlike books, can last for multiple editions of the game.

Its not a deal-breaker, but I'm decidedly un-hyped at the prospect of 15-20 year minis making a come back.

I share the concern that if they are the only way to get a "new army", I'm probably not going to buy them, which means I possibly won't buy anything.

There seem to be people who think differently - and want to get hold of the 6th edition minis they couldn't back then. But I don't think its unreasonable to not be overly interested. If I didn't think the sculpts were that hot in say 2010, I really don't think they'll hold up now.

 kodos wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Regardless of how long it was the Cadian update or the Tyranid update or any of the others made peoples purchased models outdated. If they were brand new kits being replaced (like what sort of happened with the Cadian upgrade sprue) than sure, I could understand it, but when it's a decade+ release that by design standards is already obsolete regardless of that being the 'current' kit, I don't see that much issue.

the problem is a different one here, as Cadia got all new models
so you either have the old range with a consistent design or the new range with a consistent design

just imagine that with the new book, there would have been the new heavy weapons, new tanks and new artillery, but the core troopers would have stayed the old ones with the upgrade sprue
and next year the new core troopers release, now again with a different design as the new heavy weapons, tanks and artillery
or Tyranids now getting all new units except Gaunts, which will be added next year when everyone with a new army already got the old ones

this is the status of nearly all warhammer armies, core troops being from a different design and age as the special units and if there is now a new release just updating the core, you end up again with an inconsistent design

and this will case rage

Aesthetics changing would be a problem, like the new Cadians next to the old ones, but just moderizing a kit while keeping that old look (for the most part) shouldn't be an issue. That the artwork shown for this project is using the old designs suggests they aren't going to substantially change designs if/when new stuff releases.

 streetsamurai wrote:
All these old kits coming back pretty much killed my interest for this game. Seems like it will be a half assed affair

Fair enough. Indeed, model-wise this game is absolutely going to be a half assed affair, initially. For obvious reasons it would be impossible for GW to provide a full range of new miniatures for every fantasy faction on day one. They never did that with the old WFB, and they won't be doing it now. Just imagine what a ridiculous amount of new kits that would be. Even a modest 5 new plastic kits for each faction* would mean a whopping 80 new kits in total.

My guess is that there's absolutely going to be a solid amount of new exciting plastic kits to go along with the launch, but GW will only really start showing us those when the launch date is approaching. That's when they want to be maxing the hype. I'll reserve my judgement until we see how much new stuff they've actually got for us.

*Empire, Bretonnia, Kislev, Dwarfs, High Elves, Dark Elves, Wood Elves, Lizardmen, Ogre Kingdoms, Orcs & Goblins, Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings, Skaven, Warriors of Chaos, Beasts of Chaos, Daemons of Chaos.

While i hate the news, brettonians at least are fairly decent kit. Still, I wonder if theyll have the chutzpah to re release these terrible terrible TK kits and sell them at 50$ or above.

That would be embarrassing for them


Automatically Appended Next Post:
While i hate the news, brettonians at least are fairly decent kit. Still, I wonder if theyll have the chutzpah to re release these terrible terrible TK kits and sell them at 50$ or above.

That would be embarrassing for them

 Dysartes wrote:
How long before we see one of the MDF companies producing mvoement trays with 20mm slots spaced to work as 25mm bases, do you think?

Flush with the front, 5mm spacer between bases, 2,5mm at the flanks. Shouldn't be tricky to design.

Now


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I will say, I'm fine with them releasing the knights again. They are damn good looking for their time, and still do relatively today. They were good kit.

 Dysartes wrote:
How long before we see one of the MDF companies producing mvoement trays with 20mm slots spaced to work as 25mm bases, do you think?

Flush with the front, 5mm spacer between bases, 2,5mm at the flanks. Shouldn't be tricky to design.

The Google term you're looking for is "Oathmark movement tray 20mm bases".

Street I respect what you said here…if pricing is done right and unit sizes aren’t ridiculous, it might be a home run.

I like to think there is a market for rank and file which is why they are bringing this back and I hope they don’t torpedo the launch of this with crazy pricing coupled with 50+ block units for practically all the armies.

I hope in the 4 (or more) years in development they at least figured this part out but time will tell. I personally think there is potential to hit a grand slam here but only time will tell if it’s done right.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Aesthetics changing would be a problem, like the new Cadians next to the old ones, but just moderizing a kit while keeping that old look (for the most part) shouldn't be an issue. That the artwork shown for this project is using the old designs suggests they aren't going to substantially change designs if/when new stuff releases.

you misunderstood, the mixed aesthetic, like old Cadian next to ne ons, is the current state of the armies (just that the new sculpts are already old)

So to start the new Edition GW is releasing an army with mixed aesthetic and there is a maybe that some models are upgraded (but we don't know if in the style of the new Cadians or old Cadians)

Is anyone else worried about the larger footprint of units making the movement phase a rank'n flank fiasko?

4 x 15 chaos warriors with frontage of 5 dudes will have a total lenght of 74cm with 32mm bases and an inch between each unit.

It works at 4x6 foot I guess. If they reduce the playing field, its going to get cramped.

Really depends if they thought about this and keep armies in the given design space

Kings of War has Horde formations, Black Powder has the as well and that those wide formations are limited in movement is part of the game and balance of the units

It all depends what the minimum size will be as if the 6x3 is going to be the standard, playing larger games than 1500 points will be an issue (the positive part is less models and lower entry cost, which might GWs solution to the 8th Edition problem

 triplegrim wrote:
Is anyone else worried about the larger footprint of units making the movement phase a rank'n flank fiasko?

4 x 15 chaos warriors with frontage of 5 dudes will have a total lenght of 74cm with 32mm bases and an inch between each unit.

It works at 4x6 foot I guess. If they reduce the playing field, its going to get cramped.

Bigger models / bases on smaller tables seems to be the way GW are pushing at the mo so this may be intentional.

As someone who plays 2nd Ed 40k on an 8x4 table the Uber cramped contemporary 40k games I see in the wild look gross, but it’s clearly not an issue for GW or their player base so I’d say this is something Old World players are going to have to lump.

I’ve got blocks of 25mm base models 10 wide and they are already too burdensome to use properly, adding another 2 bases (assuming a 5mm increase per base, or their abouts) and it’s gonna get ugly.

Luke82 wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:
Is anyone else worried about the larger footprint of units making the movement phase a rank'n flank fiasko?

4 x 15 chaos warriors with frontage of 5 dudes will have a total lenght of 74cm with 32mm bases and an inch between each unit.

It works at 4x6 foot I guess. If they reduce the playing field, its going to get cramped.

Bigger models / bases on smaller tables seems to be the way GW are pushing at the mo so this may be intentional.

As someone who plays 2nd Ed 40k on an 8x4 table the Uber cramped contemporary 40k games I see in the wild look gross, but it’s clearly not an issue for GW or their player base so I’d say this is something Old World players are going to have to lump.

I’ve got blocks of 25mm base models 10 wide and they are already too burdensome to use properly, adding another 2 bases (assuming a 5mm increase per base, or their abouts) and it’s gonna get ugly.

You are on to something. There are 144 square inches in 1 square foot. A 25mm base is one square inch.

A regular army with 5 x 20 infantry, two cannons, some light cav and a monster pretty much is a square foot.

So with two armies at 4x4 feet, some terrain, spacing between units and corners not used, it might get cramped. And then I havent even tried to calculate 32mm or monstrous infantry.

 triplegrim wrote:

Luke82 wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:
Is anyone else worried about the larger footprint of units making the movement phase a rank'n flank fiasko?

4 x 15 chaos warriors with frontage of 5 dudes will have a total lenght of 74cm with 32mm bases and an inch between each unit.

It works at 4x6 foot I guess. If they reduce the playing field, its going to get cramped.

Bigger models / bases on smaller tables seems to be the way GW are pushing at the mo so this may be intentional.

As someone who plays 2nd Ed 40k on an 8x4 table the Uber cramped contemporary 40k games I see in the wild look gross, but it’s clearly not an issue for GW or their player base so I’d say this is something Old World players are going to have to lump.

I’ve got blocks of 25mm base models 10 wide and they are already too burdensome to use properly, adding another 2 bases (assuming a 5mm increase per base, or their abouts) and it’s gonna get ugly.

You are on to something. There are 144 square inches in 1 square foot. A 25mm base is one square inch.

A regular army with 5 x 20 infantry, two cannons, some light cav and a monster pretty much is a square foot.

So with two armies at 4x4 feet, some terrain, spacing between units and corners not used, it might get cramped. And then I havent even tried to calculate 32mm or monstrous infantry.

I have the feeling with the increase of base size the new sculpts will take advantage of that and grow up in scale too, meaning we will be having the same problem all over again but just with an overall scale creep.
I for one think that big regiments games would look a lot better at 15mms or true old old 28mm but GW wants to charge £25 per character and add huge monsters and minis.