<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/6.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/782431.page

This thread is for News and Rumours about the game only.

A brief rundown of the articles so far;

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/15/old-world-new-warhammer/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/21/square-bases-and-kislev-ascendant-see-your-questions-about-warhammer-the-old-world-answered/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/10/07/discover-warhammer-the-old-worlds-ultimate-getaway-for-exiled-lords-and-rotten-princes/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/10/14/warhammer-the-old-world-orcs-bretonnians-tomb-kings-arrive/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/18/grand-cathay-is-mapped-for-the-first-time-in-warhammer-the-old-world/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/10/14/warhammer-the-old-world-orcs-bretonnians-tomb-kings-arrive/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/01/11/old-world-development-diary-explore-the-war-torn-lands-of-the-world-that-was/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/02/06/old-world-development-diary-walk-like-a-nehekharan-in-the-land-of-the-dead/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/03/13/old-world-development-diary-revealing-the-weapons-of-war/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/14/old-world-development-diary-on-bases-and-the-barons-of-bretonnia/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/30/warhammer-the-old-world-a-noble-bretonnian-paladin-stands-up-to-a-tomb-king/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/23/old-world-development-diary-the-main-factions-revealed/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/24/old-world-development-diary-the-more-things-change-the-more-they-stay-the-same/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/08/31/nova-previews-bow-deeply-for-elisse-duchaard/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/10/14/warhammer-day-preview-the-kingdom-of-bretonnia-revealed/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/10/30/old-world-almanack-your-first-look-at-the-rules/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/11/06/old-world-almanack-the-movement-phase-introduces-marching-columns/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/11/13/old-world-almanack-darken-the-skies-with-volleys-of-arrows-quarrels-shot-bolts-balls-and-screaming-skulls/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/11/18/world-championships-preview-awaken-an-ancient-terror-from-beneath-the-sands/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/11/20/old-world-almanack-fight-the-good-fight-in-the-combat-phase/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/11/27/old-world-almanack-get-in-the-right-headspace-for-morale-and-psychology/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/12/04/old-world-almanack-how-magic-brings-a-sparkle-to-the-battlefield/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/12/11/old-world-almanack-living-saints-and-special-rules/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/12/18/old-world-almanack-mustering-the-grand-army-of-bretonnia/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/12/20/lords-of-the-lance-is-the-first-new-novel-for-the-world-of-legend/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/12/26/warhammer-the-old-world-the-tomb-kings-of-khemri-revealed/

Any I have missed please post.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11464074.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11464074.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Dev Diary article.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/01/11/old-world-development-diary-explore-the-war-torn-lands-of-the-world-that-was/]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476633.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476633.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476640.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476640.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
New Dev Diary article.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/01/11/old-world-development-diary-explore-the-war-torn-lands-of-the-world-that-was/


That's... an interesting approach.
Not sure that multiple reminders that the End Times happened, this world is dead and all this is pointless is the best way to drum up excitement for the upcoming game.

Wish they'd start talking about the actual game, what factions will be playable and what kinds of models we can expect rather than one-sentence blurbs on Imperial provinces.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476645.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476645.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. AoS?

Getting strong "Horus Heresy, but fantasy" vibes.

I'm just pleased that beastmen are mentioned, although I accept it probably means ungors will change their base size for the 4th time.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476650.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476650.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Voss wrote:


That's... an interesting approach.
Not sure that multiple reminders that the End Times happened, this world is dead and all this is pointless is the best way to drum up excitement for the upcoming game.

Wish they'd start talking about the actual game, what factions will be playable and what kinds of models we can expect rather than one-sentence blurbs on Imperial provinces.


Well if the design is still at the sketches phase there aren't any models as yet ready for us to get excited over. Plus GW doesn't want to drop models that might not be on sale for another year or two. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476652.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476652.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. GW is actually saying:

1. no they are not retconing AOS
2. They are not going to do something like 9th Age and be called out on copying it.
3. Get called out for another Storm of Chaos move by retconing those results - again.
4. They don’t want to make models for characters who are alive in AOS (Alarielle, Neferata, Etcetc). So they are doing a completely new model line for this game.

They are not trying to spite WFB players.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476655.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476655.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. AoS Am Be Teh Scrapped”. And you know such sad acts are out there.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476657.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476657.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
scarletsquig wrote:
Looks like a huge emphasis on the Empire civil war, possibly 4 Empire factions as the main focus and a ton of human miniatures that will also just happen to make up the bulk of the cities of sigmar release for AoS?

Getting strong "Horus Heresy, but fantasy" vibes.

I'm just pleased that beastmen are mentioned, although I accept it probably means ungors will change their base size for the 4th time.


There is only one problem here:

Space Marines have appeal no matter what colour they have. Empire state troops are boring from the getgo. I will happily avoid this game with all my non-Empire armies in 9th Age.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476660.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476660.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
They have in earlier articles shown other factions in the game so it's clearly not just Empire.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476662.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476662.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476666.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476666.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
scarletsquig wrote:
Looks like a huge emphasis on the Empire civil war, possibly 4 Empire factions as the main focus and a ton of human miniatures that will also just happen to make up the bulk of the cities of sigmar release for AoS?

Getting strong "Horus Heresy, but fantasy" vibes.

I'm just pleased that beastmen are mentioned, although I accept it probably means ungors will change their base size for the 4th time.


The focus on the Imperial Civil War has been sort of obvious from as soon as the time-period it's set was made apparent. I do think it will carry quite a bit of the early releases and there could well be crossover with the dawn-crusade (or whatever it's called) stuff. I'm not sure it's going to be all Empire though, there's clearly been some substantive work done on Bretonnia, in terms of the art and lore if nothing else. The articles have often made reference to the unprecedented amount of work that's gone into The Old World project; much of that could just be marketing spiel but I'd hope for at least the same level of releases as Heresy 2.0 got at launch and hopefully that can be spread across multiple factions. It's not like some couldn't work as dual-purpose kits for both ToW and AoS; Chaos/Skaven/Vampires/Lizardmen/Daughters of Khaine etc. could all have some updated sets that would just need a base change.

Regardless, even if all we get is some actually decent Empire sets (the artwork in the recent article is a good start) then my inner Mordhiemer will be delighted at least. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476679.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476679.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Voss wrote:


That's... an interesting approach.
Not sure that multiple reminders that the End Times happened, this world is dead and all this is pointless is the best way to drum up excitement for the upcoming game.

Wish they'd start talking about the actual game, what factions will be playable and what kinds of models we can expect rather than one-sentence blurbs on Imperial provinces.


To me, I read the reminder of the End Times happening as an effort to promote unity between AoS players and WHTOW fans. How the 2 games will be linked (if any such connection is actually planned) hasn’t been revealed yet but it’s no secret there is or has been at the very least a lot of contention between WHFB and AoS players. Goes without saying the survival of the game depends not just on sales but if those 2 groups can coexist beyond cannibalization fears. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476680.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476680.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. AoS
same as there is for Horus Heresy and 40k, the setting of one game is 10.000 years in the past of the other game and it remind people that AoS is the future of the TOW setting and not its own thing
if this is good, we will see
(did GW also advertise the HH game with "Horus will be defeated and everything is already done"?)

The Grand County of Osterland
Ruled from the great city of Middenheim by Count Sigismund Ulric, Osterland is home to the Wolf Emperors of the north, fierce devotees of Ulric.

Did I miss something?
So either this is a very bad typo, the Designer have no clue of the background, or we already see the first changes to the setting making a much larger split-off Empire of the North]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476687.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476687.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
JimmyWolf87 wrote:
scarletsquig wrote:
Looks like a huge emphasis on the Empire civil war, possibly 4 Empire factions as the main focus and a ton of human miniatures that will also just happen to make up the bulk of the cities of sigmar release for AoS?

Getting strong "Horus Heresy, but fantasy" vibes.

I'm just pleased that beastmen are mentioned, although I accept it probably means ungors will change their base size for the 4th time.


The focus on the Imperial Civil War has been sort of obvious from as soon as the time-period it's set was made apparent. I do think it will carry quite a bit of the early releases and there could well be crossover with the dawn-crusade (or whatever it's called) stuff. I'm not sure it's going to be all Empire though, there's clearly been some substantive work done on Bretonnia, in terms of the art and lore if nothing else. The articles have often made reference to the unprecedented amount of work that's gone into The Old World project; much of that could just be marketing spiel but I'd hope for at least the same level of releases as Heresy 2.0 got at launch and hopefully that can be spread across multiple factions. It's not like some couldn't work as dual-purpose kits for both ToW and AoS; Chaos/Skaven/Vampires/Lizardmen/Daughters of Khaine etc. could all have some updated sets that would just need a base change.

Regardless, even if all we get is some actually decent Empire sets (the artwork in the recent article is a good start) then my inner Mordhiemer will be delighted at least.


Somehow the stuff they presented so far feels much more like the background hype for a roleplaying setting rather than background for a mass-battle game. More skirmishy, close-combatty, less cannons and dragons and giants.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476688.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476688.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 nathan2004 wrote:
Voss wrote:


That's... an interesting approach.
Not sure that multiple reminders that the End Times happened, this world is dead and all this is pointless is the best way to drum up excitement for the upcoming game.

Wish they'd start talking about the actual game, what factions will be playable and what kinds of models we can expect rather than one-sentence blurbs on Imperial provinces.


To me, I read the reminder of the End Times happening as an effort to promote unity between AoS players and WHTOW fans. How the 2 games will be linked (if any such connection is actually planned) hasn’t been revealed yet but it’s no secret there is or has been at the very least a lot of contention between WHFB and AoS players. Goes without saying the survival of the game depends not just on sales but if those 2 groups can coexist beyond cannibalization fears.

That's not a view I've ever considered. Reminding people of schisms doesn't, in my experience, promote unity.

---
@Tsagualsa-- same. They mention the upcoming chaos invasion, but that feels like almost entirely background. The mention of beasts and O&G makes me hope I can bring out my beastmen army (3000 points fully painted, plus some extras I never got around to after the end, though I won't be rebasing ever again), but I'm not sure it isn't window dressing for the skirmishes of the four emperors, or whatever. I'd really like it if they just told me one way or the other.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476695.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476695.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Cataphract wrote:
What I think is happening is that GW is actually saying:

1. no they are not retconing AOS
2. They are not going to do something like 9th Age and be called out on copying it.
3. Get called out for another Storm of Chaos move by retconing those results - again.
4. They don’t want to make models for characters who are alive in AOS (Alarielle, Neferata, Etcetc). So they are doing a completely new model line for this game.

They are not trying to spite WFB players.
Yeah that is entirely the impression I got. Good idea for them to do that.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476698.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476698.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Voss wrote:

Not sure that multiple reminders that the End Times happened, this world is dead and all this is pointless is the best way to drum up excitement for the upcoming game.


+1
For me, the only way for this game to feel relevant is if I just ignore the aos-related (and clearly fictional) ”future” of the world (the same way as forgetting about ever seeing the last Aliens movies is the only way to appreciate the first ones again). I.e. treating ”fantasy in space” aka AOS as ”The world that will never be”.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476703.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476703.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. GW says nothing and then clickbait channels keep promoting the idea that AoS is dead which feeds back to customers both new and old or GW says "shut up AoS is still happening" and the clickbait channels whinge that GW is bullying WHFB players which can impact the return for those legacy players.

As for the non-Empire factions, if you think of it like HH the first 4 Legions and Mechanicum came first in Book 1 and by Book 9 we had all 18 Legions, Talons, Mechanicum, Knights, Solar Aux, Militia, and Daemons. Each one was tied to specific battles or campaigns where they played a key role (Prospero for the Talons or Signus where Daemons first showed up). Could be that if there is only the Empire + Brettonia on release it could see the other factions released later on.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476707.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476707.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Voss wrote:


That's... an interesting approach.
Not sure that multiple reminders that the End Times happened, this world is dead and all this is pointless is the best way to drum up excitement for the upcoming game.

Wish they'd start talking about the actual game, what factions will be playable and what kinds of models we can expect rather than one-sentence blurbs on Imperial provinces.


No more pointless than hh, fb was, 40k etc.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476723.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476723.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Gert wrote:
It's an unwinnable situation. Either GW says nothing and then clickbait channels keep promoting the idea that AoS is dead which feeds back to customers both new and old or GW says "shut up AoS is still happening" and the clickbait channels whinge that GW is bullying WHFB players which can impact the return for those legacy players.

As for the non-Empire factions, if you think of it like HH the first 4 Legions and Mechanicum came first in Book 1 and by Book 9 we had all 18 Legions, Talons, Mechanicum, Knights, Solar Aux, Militia, and Daemons. Each one was tied to specific battles or campaigns where they played a key role (Prospero for the Talons or Signus where Daemons first showed up). Could be that if there is only the Empire + Brettonia on release it could see the other factions released later on.


I guess it depends on whether they’re dusting off the old moulds or not.

As discussed at length before, there are pros and cons to doing that. Here’s a selection.

Pros

I can dig out my Ogres and get playing straight away. As can anyone with a vintage force once they get rules (I suspect we can expect at least Get You By rules at launch)

This leads to Instant Player Base. A visibly played game is self-advertising. It may even tempt folk who walked when AoS dropped to get back in, buying a new force.

Cons

The Pros above don’t necessarily translate into decent enough sales, especially if the flagship forces don’t particularly require fresh investment, as you’re then pinning hopes on any updated sculpts being Irresistible.

So you may end up with a widely played game that just isn’t bringing in the pennies.

But I still think they’ll go for that. It keeps production costs down, as you don’t need to reproduce everything from the ground up, allowing you to focus on Stuff That Needed Doing 15 Years Ago, Let Alone Now (such as, I dunno, to take pick one at random, Imperial Knightly Orders. Yeeesh!), and Oooh That’s New/Not Been Seen For Decades (city specific Greatsword equivalents, War Wagons) stuff, to part those with existing collections from their cash monies.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476726.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476726.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Strg Alt wrote:
scarletsquig wrote:
Looks like a huge emphasis on the Empire civil war, possibly 4 Empire factions as the main focus and a ton of human miniatures that will also just happen to make up the bulk of the cities of sigmar release for AoS?

Getting strong "Horus Heresy, but fantasy" vibes.

I'm just pleased that beastmen are mentioned, although I accept it probably means ungors will change their base size for the 4th time.


There is only one problem here:

Space Marines have appeal no matter what colour they have. Empire state troops are boring from the getgo. I will happily avoid this game with all my non-Empire armies in 9th Age.


Boring to you. Just like i know plenty to whom marines are boring as hell.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476727.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476727.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
They aren't competing games. Age of sigmar isn't and has never been a substitute for warhammer fantasy battles. The two games have completely different rule sets. It's part of why some people had (or have) such an issue with age of sigmar, because they flushed WFB and didn't replace it with something remotely analogous. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476728.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476728.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 kendoka wrote:
Voss wrote:

Not sure that multiple reminders that the End Times happened, this world is dead and all this is pointless is the best way to drum up excitement for the upcoming game.


+1
For me, the only way for this game to feel relevant is if I just ignore the aos-related (and clearly fictional) ”future” of the world (the same way as forgetting about ever seeing the last Aliens movies is the only way to appreciate the first ones again). I.e. treating ”fantasy in space” aka AOS as ”The world that will never be”.


So hh is pointless as we know result?

40k is pointless as we know for sure in the end nothing is alive?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476731.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476731.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 Gert wrote:
It's an unwinnable situation. Either GW says nothing and then clickbait channels keep promoting the idea that AoS is dead which feeds back to customers both new and old or GW says "shut up AoS is still happening" and the clickbait channels whinge that GW is bullying WHFB players which can impact the return for those legacy players.

As for the non-Empire factions, if you think of it like HH the first 4 Legions and Mechanicum came first in Book 1 and by Book 9 we had all 18 Legions, Talons, Mechanicum, Knights, Solar Aux, Militia, and Daemons. Each one was tied to specific battles or campaigns where they played a key role (Prospero for the Talons or Signus where Daemons first showed up). Could be that if there is only the Empire + Brettonia on release it could see the other factions released later on.


I guess it depends on whether they’re dusting off the old moulds or not.




Beyond a Made to Order offer to celebrate the release of TOW or whatever, as well as potentially some very specific kits released shortly before The End Times, I don't see them using the existing kits as the basis for The Old Worlds model range. Those old kits do not meet nu-GW's standards for kit design, quality, or even scale. I suspect you'll see things like Empire Demigryph Knights and Tomb Kings Sepulchral Stalkers or Necrosphinxes make a return on a permanent basis, I wouldn't expect to see older kits like Bretonnian Knights or Dwarf Thunderers to make a comeback, and I imagine that the older kits which survive in Age of Sigmar as core parts of the range (such as Skaven clanrats or Dark Elf Wyches) will remain there rather than becoming cross-over kits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote:


That's... an interesting approach.
Not sure that multiple reminders that the End Times happened, this world is dead and all this is pointless is the best way to drum up excitement for the upcoming game.

Wish they'd start talking about the actual game, what factions will be playable and what kinds of models we can expect rather than one-sentence blurbs on Imperial provinces.


They just told you. 4 Empire factions (as was foretold by everyone with common sense), Orcs & Goblins, Beastmen, Chaos invaders, and hints of Bretonnia and Tomb Kings.

 Strg Alt wrote:
scarletsquig wrote:
Looks like a huge emphasis on the Empire civil war, possibly 4 Empire factions as the main focus and a ton of human miniatures that will also just happen to make up the bulk of the cities of sigmar release for AoS?
Getting strong "Horus Heresy, but fantasy" vibes.
I'm just pleased that beastmen are mentioned, although I accept it probably means ungors will change their base size for the 4th time.


There is only one problem here:
Space Marines have appeal no matter what colour they have. Empire state troops are boring from the getgo.


Speak for yourself, I like the aesthetic of Empire state troops and feel they have more room for creativity in their paint scheme on a model-by-model basis (i.e. as long as you hold to a consistent color palette you are free to paint different blocking and patterns on each individual model within a unit, whereas the expectation with Space Marines is that a chapters livery is fairly standardized and consistent across the entire chapter, with only minor variations from company to company and unit to unit).

 kendoka wrote:
Voss wrote:

Not sure that multiple reminders that the End Times happened, this world is dead and all this is pointless is the best way to drum up excitement for the upcoming game.

+1
For me, the only way for this game to feel relevant is if I just ignore the aos-related (and clearly fictional) ”future” of the world (the same way as forgetting about ever seeing the last Aliens movies is the only way to appreciate the first ones again). I.e. treating ”fantasy in space” aka AOS as ”The world that will never be”.


And this is why they are making it clear that Age of Sigmar is the future of the setting and its unavoidable and integral to the setting of the world. Too many WHFB fans, here on dakka, in the Old World facebook group, etc. have spent a ridiculous amount of time arguing that GW was going to fork the timeline and retcon the End Times out of existence/move it into an alternate timeline, etc. I don't doubt that GW is aware of this, and this is clearly them saying: "Age of Sigmar is here to stay and it is the future of the setting you are in, there will be no continuation of the WHFB setting or the storyline past the events of The End Times, because that continuation IS Age of Sigmar.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476747.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476747.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.




]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476749.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476749.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476754.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476754.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Gert wrote:
I love the Huntsmen so much. It's just so dumb that a General will gather elite knights, wizards, masses of trained infantry, and then some dudes hunting pigeons who just came along for the fun of it.


A good general will def bring scouts ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476758.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476758.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476759.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476759.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
chaos0xomega wrote:

Beyond a Made to Order offer to celebrate the release of TOW or whatever, as well as potentially some very specific kits released shortly before The End Times, I don't see them using the existing kits as the basis for The Old Worlds model range. Those old kits do not meet nu-GW's standards for kit design, quality, or even scale.


This is exactly why the previewed Tomb Kings Chariot art did more harm than good in my eyes, because it is very obviously based on the 6th edition kit. It is almost one-to-one in it's details from the design of the front icon, to the side-mounted javelins, to the placement of the bandages and bangles on the crew. This is in stark contrast to how they are presented in both the 8th edition artwork and in TWW2. For example, later incarnations have light barding on the horses and proper yokes.
That the artwork so closely resembles the 6th edition kit suggests to me that it is either going to be a re-release of the old boxed set, or the later design changes are being undone for whatever reason. Either is bad because the floating yokes and naked horses annoy me to no end and I consider the updated designs to be a massive improvement.

EDIT: Please see the spoilered images for a demonstration of how the Chariots (should) have changed over time:

6th Edition Plastic kit
Spoiler:

Note the horses not actually being attached to the chariot, the lack of any barding, and see how the crew are armoured.


8th Edition artwork
Spoiler:


Portrayal in Total War: Warhammer 2
Spoiler:


And finally, the previewed TOW artwork
Spoiler:

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476787.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476787.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Mozzamanx wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:

Beyond a Made to Order offer to celebrate the release of TOW or whatever, as well as potentially some very specific kits released shortly before The End Times, I don't see them using the existing kits as the basis for The Old Worlds model range. Those old kits do not meet nu-GW's standards for kit design, quality, or even scale.


This is exactly why the previewed Tomb Kings Chariot art did more harm than good in my eyes, because it is very obviously based on the 6th edition kit. It is almost one-to-one in it's details from the design of the front icon, to the side-mounted javelins, to the placement of the bandages and bangles on the crew. This is in stark contrast to how they are presented in both the 8th edition artwork and in TWW2. For example, later incarnations have light barding on the horses and proper yokes.
That the artwork so closely resembles the 6th edition kit suggests to me that it is either going to be a re-release of the old boxed set, or the later design changes are being undone for whatever reason. Either is bad because the floating yokes and naked horses annoy me to no end and I consider the updated designs to be a massive improvement.


I think people vastly overestimate the potential model range this game can reasonably have in the beginning - outside of practical concerns like the number of product codes and so on, one can reasonably conclude that:

- everything that was still in metal is out
- everything that was in finecast is out
- everything that has since been repackaged or renamed and ported to AOS is out

And that is operating on the basis that the game will be in the 'typical' heroic 28mm scale, and not on some divergent scale with square bases. For older sculpts, there is also the possibility of old moulds or masters being lost or thrown away.

On the topic of get-you-by-rulesets, i can't really see how they'd do a ruleset where roundabout 2/3 of the entries are only accessible for old farts, by proxy or on the secondary market, so i do not think that we'll get comprehensive rules for e.g. the complete old Wood Elves range.

I guess that we still haven't got the whole picture about the rule system, and i guess it will be much more removed from 'classic' WHFB than we currently think, for practical and economical reasons.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476801.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476801.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. But it is still just one line. That just gives colour schemes and such. Like marines.
They all have the same stuff so won’t be different looks (army composition is where it’s at. Nuln can take more shooty or that kind of thing).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476804.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476804.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Danny76 wrote:
I know it says 4 Empire factions.
But it is still just one line. That just gives colour schemes and such. Like marines.
They all have the same stuff so won’t be different looks (army composition is where it’s at. Nuln can take more shooty or that kind of thing).


That's pretty likely, you'd have the same body of basic troops, swords, spears, halberds, bow, crossbow, maybe some sort of upgrade or accessory sprue to do some customization for the factions, and then you can add in army selection rules, some faction-specific special troops and more or no access to stuff like blackpowder weapons and so on. Fluffwise the game is set decades before the Great War against Chaos and about 200 years after Mordheim, which is about the same timeframe when imperial gunpowder weapons were professionalized, with the Nuln Gunnery School being founded 'in the century leading up to the Great War against Chaos' so you could have stuff like Nuln forces having rank-and-file muskets and pistols while e.g. Talabecland forces would limit their use to characters and officers.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476814.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476814.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Danny76 wrote:
I know it says 4 Empire factions.
But it is still just one line. That just gives colour schemes and such. Like marines.
They all have the same stuff so won’t be different looks (army composition is where it’s at. Nuln can take more shooty or that kind of thing).


Another thing to remember that the Empire civil war has a great deal rooted in religious conflict, namely between Sigmar and Ulric. It's also obviously several hundred years before the birth of Karl Franz.

Which means, absolutely every model, weapon, banner and scrap of armour that has even a hint of a comet or the words 'Sigmar' or 'Franz' are inappropriate for the Middenheimers at the very least. I'm not sure if that leaves any kits at all that are actually kosher for them. It would be very much like a Horus Heresy traitors army decked out in aquilas and 'For the Emperor', except this conflict has gone on for centuries and the excuse of just not having got around to it holds no water.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476819.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476819.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Mozzamanx wrote:
Danny76 wrote:
I know it says 4 Empire factions.
But it is still just one line. That just gives colour schemes and such. Like marines.
They all have the same stuff so won’t be different looks (army composition is where it’s at. Nuln can take more shooty or that kind of thing).


Another thing to remember that the Empire civil war has a great deal rooted in religious conflict, namely between Sigmar and Ulric. It's also obviously several hundred years before the birth of Karl Franz.

Which means, absolutely every model, weapon, banner and scrap of armour that has even a hint of a comet or the words 'Sigmar' or 'Franz' are inappropriate for the Middenheimers at the very least. I'm not sure if that leaves any kits at all that are actually kosher for them. It would be very much like a Horus Heresy traitors army decked out in aquilas and 'For the Emperor', except this conflict has gone on for centuries and the excuse of just not having got around to it holds no water.


Yeah, just like mk6 wasn't common until the end of the Heresy... The gaslighting (and disappointment) will be unreal when this side game finally drops. People will be posting art from old Empire army books saying "seeeeeee, they've always had "Sigmar" written everywhere" and the obligatory "it's just fantasy so there shouldn't be any rules".]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476826.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476826.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. aOs!!!1!" vs. "BaWwW mY wFb!!!!!1!@!" again?

Still a barely there update. I wish they'd confirm something substantive like returning bases, models, and overeat trays for purchase. Even online/special order would be enough of a bone.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476827.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476827.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Danny76 wrote:
I know it says 4 Empire factions.
But it is still just one line. That just gives colour schemes and such. Like marines.
They all have the same stuff so won’t be different looks (army composition is where it’s at. Nuln can take more shooty or that kind of thing).


Fiddling about with my old Lone wolf Army builder for 6th edition Empire, there are both Cult of Ulric and Artillery train of Nuln style armies Dont you think they will release enough for each of the four emperors for it to be its own thing? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476844.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476844.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476856.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476856.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476861.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476861.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476869.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476869.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Danny76 wrote:
I know it says 4 Empire factions.
But it is still just one line. That just gives colour schemes and such. Like marines.
They all have the same stuff so won’t be different looks (army composition is where it’s at. Nuln can take more shooty or that kind of thing).


They may also go along religon lines - with priests/ templars etc
Cult of Ulric for the Wolf Emperor, Taal for Talabheim, Sigmar for Reikland and Mannan for Marienburg]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476874.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476874.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Danny76 wrote:
I know it says 4 Empire factions.
But it is still just one line. That just gives colour schemes and such. Like marines.
They all have the same stuff so won’t be different looks (army composition is where it’s at. Nuln can take more shooty or that kind of thing).


Exactly. Thats cost efficiency. The kind of thing GW looks for when its launching product lines. Same as how Horus Heresy is primarily based on 18 factions which are mostly built around sharing the same however many core kits, and how Adeptus Titanicus is based on two factions which share the same like 6 kits.

 Just Tony wrote:
So one post detailing the political climate of the Empire at this time has posters already forgetting the post that all old armies will be usable in TOW?


"All old armies will be usable in TOW" will go the way of the legacy army lists that let players use their WHFB armies in Age of Sigmar and the 8e index stuff that became Legends. Which is to say, they will publish rules for it, you will in theory be able to use it, but it will have a finite shelf-life in terms of how long GW will continue to support, balance, and update those rules until it essentially phases itself out because the influx of new players that will sustain the Old World community will have limited/no access to those models and will only be able to buy Middenheim Wolf-Halberdiers and Reikland Elector-Knights instead of Empire State Troops and Imperial Knights. If you have an existing WHFB collection and a local crew of semi-active grognards who held on to their old armies and still get together to play as part of your private wargaming club, you're all set. If you don't even have the corpse of a remaining WHFB community and you rely on pickup games with complete strangers at the local store, then GWs old-army-promise is probably an empty one.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476881.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476881.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476894.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476894.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476905.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476905.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476909.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476909.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Scottywan82 wrote:
I find it fascinating that this is set before the Siege of Praag, because isn't that also before the existence of the Colleges of Magic? I am kind of excited to see hedge wizards in the Empire.


IIRC Teclis turned up after Magnus had united the Empire, so that probably depends on how static they hold the timeline.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476921.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476921.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
And the talk about the end times happened, the world still blows up, Nobody cares. Everyone I know that still has any interest in Warhammer Fantasy pretends the end times never happened. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476922.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476922.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Tamereth wrote:
Another update that was just a couple of maps and artwork. Until we see models its hard to believe much effort is being put into this. It been what two years now since they first talked about it.

And the talk about the end times happened, the world still blows up, Nobody cares. Everyone I know that still has any interest in Warhammer Fantasy pretends the end times never happened.


I doubt GW will drop models until close to launch, from their PoV, why would they give 3rd parties a huge lead time to prepare?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476923.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476923.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Tamereth wrote:
Another update that was just a couple of maps and artwork. Until we see models its hard to believe much effort is being put into this. It been what two years now since they first talked about it.

Almost like in the first article, it was explicitly said it was going to be a minimum of three years and that was before Covid impacted the ability to actually do the work. In fact this is the exact quote from that article:
You get the idea – this is a long way off. Years. More than two. Like three or more. Definitely not soon.

Then there was this from an article in July 2021:
It’s going to be quite some time yet as we work on making sure this is the best version of the game we all love. We’ll give you more updates at some point here on Warhammer Community when the time is right.

I get being irritated that there seems to be little progress but people need to remember that this wasn't going to be a quick process by any means.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476926.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476926.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Tamereth wrote:
And the talk about the end times happened, the world still blows up, Nobody cares. Everyone I know that still has any interest in Warhammer Fantasy pretends the end times never happened.

I suspect that statement was more to clarify that the overall story isn't changing, which stops speculation over whether revisiting the setting will affect AoS.

Ultimately, there's not really any need to 'ignore' the End Times in order to play games in the Old World, any more than you need to ignore WWII in order to play WWI games. You're simply playing in a different part of the timeline. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476928.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476928.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Baragash wrote:
 Scottywan82 wrote:
I find it fascinating that this is set before the Siege of Praag, because isn't that also before the existence of the Colleges of Magic? I am kind of excited to see hedge wizards in the Empire.


IIRC Teclis turned up after Magnus had united the Empire, so that probably depends on how static they hold the timeline.


After he united them but before being Emperor. Teclis was at the Siege. He and two other Elven mages joined to help Magnus.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476929.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476929.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. "It'll be like 8th!" and "Yes, square bases!". And I do agree that the previews so far seem more like an RPG setting preview than a wargame preview.

In other words: The wrapping is very pretty, but please show us what's inside?

 Gert wrote:
Either GW says nothing and then clickbait channels keep promoting the idea that AoS is dead...
Why would anyone say that? How would a side-game made by the Specialist division lead anyone to believe that the main page-listed Age of Sigmar, with releases previewed for months in advance, with multiple side-games set in AoS, is dead?

Tsagualsa wrote:
- everything that was still in metal is out
- everything that was in finecast is out
- everything that has since been repackaged or renamed and ported to AOS is out
I think that would be a mistake.

Granted, there's less and less of the old Warhammer Fantasy ranges still in circulation (especially in the realms of Elves, Dwarfs and men), but if one has been ported across (say, Witch Elves), I don't see why they couldn't be included in Old World.

And I think they should bring back retired kits, especially ones that are still perfectly fine by modern miniature standards.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476931.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476931.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
And that's just infantry blocks and such. There's a lot up in the air for it like as not and its just easier for them to release very little info now and release more concrete info once they are further along. Plus GW wants a lot of marketing hype for this. So they want lots of fresh information hot off the press in the 6 months (likely) run up toward launch.

That way they can tease it out over that period in quick succession in a big build up toward launch. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476933.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476933.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why would anyone say that? How would a side-game made by the Specialist division lead anyone to believe that the main page-listed Age of Sigmar, with releases previewed for months in advance, with multiple side-games set in AoS, is dead?

People are weird and it's been banded about since ToW got announced. I'm not saying they're right because they aren't, obviously, but people genuinely believe that sort of thing. "GW brought back Fantasy because Age of Sigmar is trash", that kind of nonsense.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476935.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476935.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 insaniak wrote:
 Tamereth wrote:
And the talk about the end times happened, the world still blows up, Nobody cares. Everyone I know that still has any interest in Warhammer Fantasy pretends the end times never happened.

I suspect that statement was more to clarify that the overall story isn't changing, which stops speculation over whether revisiting the setting will affect AoS.

Ultimately, there's not really any need to 'ignore' the End Times in order to play games in the Old World, any more than you need to ignore WWII in order to play WWI games. You're simply playing in a different part of the timeline.


I don’t know why, but it matters a great deal to me. I enjoyed the Old World, but have struggled to read any novels or assemble any models set in the Old World since it was destroyed. Knowing that it ends, and how it ends, has killed the setting for me. I have no interest in playing “historical Warhammer” games or exploring events that lead to Planet Booms Everybody Dies.


I think the closest way to explain it is…did you ever know anyone who was really excited about the TV show Lost while it was airing? Have they shown any enthusiasm for Lost since it ended?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476937.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476937.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I think the closest way to explain it is…did you ever know anyone who was really excited about the TV show Lost while it was airing? Have they shown any enthusiasm for Lost since it ended?

I think a TV show that is specifically built around a mystery is a very different kettle of whatever. The whole point of Lost was to find out what the hell was going on, so yes, it's not surprising that everyone lost interest once we found out what the hell was going on.

For a wargame setting, though, the point is just to give you some background to make the battle seem more interesting. And those battles always included some elements of 'historical' Warhammer, with the game over its span including special characters and events from various points in the timeline.

I mean, I do see your point, and it's the same issue that some people have with movie prequels in general... I just don't personally find it an issue. The point is the story, not the destination. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476943.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476943.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
In either case, it’s great that you and many others aren’t bothered, but many other are. GW seem to be aware of this, but they also seem to be doubling down rather than trying to reclaim that lost part of the market.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476946.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476946.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. VI, Merchant-Lords of Marienburg seem like they would have a lot of Dogs of War and Mannan themed units.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476947.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476947.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. I do like Empire aesthetics and hope they do push to expand it even if it’s a soft reboot to the setting gameplay and miniature wise.

I want the rank units, and would be very happy if they thought though how to keep that feel. With Age of sigmar being there big flashy fantasy.

But with the discussion they are encouraging I would find it kind of ironic if tomb kings made a big return as the main setting undead. So as not to cross sale to much with AoS.
GW creates a lot of problems for future GW should be a saying. :p
But I would be very sad not to see my vampires return. They can slot so easy into the empire setting with living troops, it would be a bit odd not to at least explore that. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476950.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476950.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
JUst as a review - GW has stated that all of the armies will playable and GW wants you to use your old models.

Here list of armies of the Old World as we know it
Empire -
Middenhiem/ Cult of Ulric
Marienburg - Will likely be mercenary based. There has been play testing that suffaced that includes Tilean Pikesmen that seems to lend some wieght to this rumor
Reikland - Cult of Sigmar
Talabheim - a mixed army likely including Halflings and Dwarfs
Bretonnia
Wood Elves
Dwarfs
Greenskins
Chaos -
Beastmen
Grand army of Chaos ( Would likely include new models for Valnir the Reaper and Scyla Anfingrimm both died at the Siege of Praag)
Kislev
Cathey
Tomb Kings

Unconfermed but likely a part of the game
Vampire Counts (The Vampire Wars happoned during this period)
Chaos Dwarfs (Their Icons are on the map)
Hobgoblin Khans (Their Icons are on the Map and concept sketches have been released)
High Elves (Their Icons are on the map)
Dark Elves (Large portions of thier army is still on shelves)
Lizardmen (Their whole army is still on the shelves)
Ogre Kingdoms (Their whole army is still on the shelves)
Skaven (Their whole army is still on the shelves)

The only true army that does not have any clues that it may be part of the game is the Dogs of War (Tilean City States). They were very active durring this period, and Leonardo da Miragliano was alive and very active in Tilea and the Empire. As a mercenary general myself this is the one i want to see the most, but i am not going to get my hopes up if Tileans are going to be part of the Marienburg army.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476955.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476955.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 insaniak wrote:
 Tamereth wrote:
And the talk about the end times happened, the world still blows up, Nobody cares. Everyone I know that still has any interest in Warhammer Fantasy pretends the end times never happened.

I suspect that statement was more to clarify that the overall story isn't changing, which stops speculation over whether revisiting the setting will affect AoS.

Ultimately, there's not really any need to 'ignore' the End Times in order to play games in the Old World, any more than you need to ignore WWII in order to play WWI games. You're simply playing in a different part of the timeline.


Honestly, that's the exact reason I don't play historicals. Doing the history incorrectly is a large flaw. (Well, and the button trivia. Military history buffs and their obsessions with details that don't matter get tiresome, and that's been part of my day-to-day for far too long).

If someone else can ignore it, that's fine for them, but it is a huge turn off.


JUst as a review - GW has stated that all of the armies will playable and GW wants you to use your old models.

Not to be rude to you personally, but people who keep saying this really need to show where they got it from. It sounds like a secondhand rumor adopted as truth, especially with 'GW wants people to use old models rather than buy new stuff.' That sounds like pure fantasy.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476958.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476958.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Just Tony wrote:
Over the last month I've helped at least 18 people online try to find Warhammer fantasy battle armies so that they could play either and over Edition or old world when it comes out. Don't ever try to get a job as a fortune teller.


congrats, that changes nothing about the scenario i presented.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote:



JUst as a review - GW has stated that all of the armies will playable and GW wants you to use your old models.

Not to be rude to you personally, but people who keep saying this really need to show where they got it from. It sounds like a secondhand rumor adopted as truth, especially with 'GW wants people to use old models rather than buy new stuff.' That sounds like pure fantasy.


GW did state they would release rules for people to use their existing stuff in one of the warcom articles. What that actually means and how people interoret it are quite likely two different things based on past experience.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476964.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476964.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
While the hope is that the Old World will be inspired by 6th edition (with a heavy emphasis on on ballance) that is unlikely.

It will likely work similar to Kings of War or most likely similar to Hail Ceasar from Warlord (Warlord was started by and still has many former GW creative people on staff) since the creative teams of both companies are on good terms from what i have heard.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476984.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11476984.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Baragash wrote:
 Scottywan82 wrote:
I find it fascinating that this is set before the Siege of Praag, because isn't that also before the existence of the Colleges of Magic? I am kind of excited to see hedge wizards in the Empire.


IIRC Teclis turned up after Magnus had united the Empire, so that probably depends on how static they hold the timeline.


After he united them but before being Emperor. Teclis was at the Siege. He and two other Elven mages joined to help Magnus.


Middenehim had organised Wizards Guild for a long time before, hopefully that will stay and many nobles had their own court wizard. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477039.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477039.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. GW. They dont have any news, so they instead go out with an announcement of what TOW is not, and will not be, and what certainly still happened.
And there you have it, already 3 more pages of speculation from the community. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477044.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477044.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Fayric wrote:
Pretty clever of GW. They dont have any news, so they instead go out with an announcement of what TOW is not, and will not be, and what certainly still happened.
And there you have it, already 3 more pages of speculation from the community.


Sadly there is no Fantasy Valrak that could pad out each of these paragraphs into a Youtube-optimized 8 minute video for our enjoyment

But seriously, the amount of speculation even this non-announcment produces is a clear indicator that there still is a lot of interest in the old world that could be monetarized if anyone cared to do it, which makes me hopeful for the future of that setting.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477050.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477050.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 insaniak wrote:
 Tamereth wrote:
And the talk about the end times happened, the world still blows up, Nobody cares. Everyone I know that still has any interest in Warhammer Fantasy pretends the end times never happened.

I suspect that statement was more to clarify that the overall story isn't changing, which stops speculation over whether revisiting the setting will affect AoS.

Ultimately, there's not really any need to 'ignore' the End Times in order to play games in the Old World, any more than you need to ignore WWII in order to play WWI games. You're simply playing in a different part of the timeline.


Well if at the end of WW1 it resulted in the world being destroyed and we all now lived on the moon, it might very well affect your enjoyment of playing a WW1 game.

It's like a book where you know that the story ends and that the end of the story sucks, it can definitely affect the enjoyment of reading the story again.

Since you mentioned WW2... there have been a few times over my life time where I've been struck deeply by the atrocities wrought during WW2 and it's affected my ability to enjoy WW2 stuff. WHFB is obviously not the same, but the events around something can definitely affect my enjoyment of the thing.

I never expected them to retcon the end times, but given how much a large portion of the WHFB fanbase hated it, it seems bizzare that they'd open an article about TOW with a reminder about End Times. It's best just not to mention it. If the fans want to pretend it didn't happen, why not let them. When you're trying to entice people who are bitter at you for something you did, maybe best not to bring up the biggest reason they're bitter.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477053.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477053.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 insaniak wrote:

Not to be rude to you personally, but people who keep saying this really need to show where they got it from. It sounds like a secondhand rumor adopted as truth, especially with 'GW wants people to use old models rather than buy new stuff.' That sounds like pure fantasy.


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/21/square-bases-and-kislev-ascendant-see-your-questions-about-warhammer-the-old-world-answered/

This is a Quote from their FAQ that was posted a few years ago. It answered the question if the new edition would be 10mm miniatures.

What? No! What madness is that?! The scale will remain the same as it ever was. We want people to be able to use their old armies if they wish, or to start new ones, or to add new miniatures to old armies – whatever they want.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477062.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477062.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Segersgia wrote:
 insaniak wrote:

Not to be rude to you personally, but people who keep saying this really need to show where they got it from. It sounds like a secondhand rumor adopted as truth, especially with 'GW wants people to use old models rather than buy new stuff.' That sounds like pure fantasy.


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/21/square-bases-and-kislev-ascendant-see-your-questions-about-warhammer-the-old-world-answered/

This is a Quote from their FAQ that was posted a few years ago. It answered the question if the new edition would be 10mm miniatures.

What? No! What madness is that?! The scale will remain the same as it ever was. We want people to be able to use their old armies if they wish, or to start new ones, or to add new miniatures to old armies – whatever they want.


To be quite fair, it's a very strong hint and a clear statement of intent, but of course changing stuff during development and pretending you never said otherwise happens all the time, and has happened with GW before. We have no reason to assume that what they said back then is not still what they plan to do, but it could happen. That being said, GW is very fond of their 28mm heroic scale and only rarely deviates from it, and almost never without a very good practical or legal reason. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477066.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477066.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477069.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477069.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Quote is still a quote, and being first party the best evidence we currently have. So for now, the question of scale and backwards compatibility is addressed.


As i said: until we have very strong evidence to the contrary, the quote still stands and it is very reasonable to assume it will remain standing.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477070.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477070.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. AoS. But GW want to sell you new plastic, not facilitate you using stuff you bought 10-30 years ago.

So no, I dont think its going to be an Empire only epic-scale game. But GW is going to want people to buy "Old World" Empire, Chaos, Orcs and goblins, undead etc. I suspect there may be a HH style cheap "Empire" box starter to get people going. GW clearly seem to be building the civil war and factions as the central narrative, at least for the opener.

The mention of the End Times stuff doesn't bother me. Yes it happened, Sigmar is a thing. This isnt just going to be WHFB 9th edition.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477080.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477080.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. WHFB in a historical context different than playing MESBG and I love me some MESBG even if I know my easterling army is gonna be defeated in the story or that Sauron is gonna lose and everybody is gonna live happily ever after.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477098.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477098.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Galas wrote:
I don't find playing WHFB in a historical context different than playing MESBG and I love me some MESBG even if I know my easterling army is gonna be defeated in the story or that Sauron is gonna lose and everybody is gonna live happily ever after.


I don't mind 'historical' gaming, many of the legendary campaigns for WHFRP are set in 'the past', Mordheim is too, and so on. At the end of the day my dudes are my dudes and GW is not the boss of me, so i can do whatever i want anyway The old Old World had reached the point were at least the main area of interest was auserzählt anyway, so a shift of 200 spices things up nicely.

That being said, their 'The End Times happened and are canonically true' is a bit weird because it's not necessary from a story perspective: you could explain all manners of weird parallel universes by Warp Shenaningans if you wanted to, they exist canonically and are an accepted part of all Warhammer settings, so the conflict they solve here does not really exist in the first place.

The conclusion is, like other people in this thread observed, that it is probably for real-world reasons that they stress this point so much: It's a signal to players that AOS the game is not going away, being cancelled or shunted to the sidelines in favor of WHFB redux. A reasonable precaution against the rumour mill going into overdrive and damaging the sales of AOS.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477099.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477099.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Imo, It would probably be better for MESBG if they didn't follow the original Trilogy and GW was allowed to do their own little spin off thing that covers Middle Earth after the fall of Sauron.
Then they could do their perpetual setting schtick where it's not obvious who's going to win or lose.
Warner will most likely never allow this though.

As for the Old World being "historical", yeah it kind of is, unless they go heavy into what-if scenarios.
Like that DLC for CK2 about what would happen if the Aztecs invaded Ireland. Remember that CK2 is technically a 'historical' game, that covers scenarios such as :
- Scandinavia remaining Norse, well into the late middle ages
- Immortal monarchs
- Literal devil worship
- Aztecs invading Europe
- The return of the Zoroastrian Persian Empire

As such, it is not entirely out of the question for GW to do something "ahistorical" such as introducing Lizardmen as part of some weird what-if expansion where they invade Bretonnia.
They probably won't have Gelt or Helblaster / Helstorms though, because that would be really be pushing it. Not even CK2 had tanks.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477100.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477100.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Baragash wrote:
 Scottywan82 wrote:
I find it fascinating that this is set before the Siege of Praag, because isn't that also before the existence of the Colleges of Magic? I am kind of excited to see hedge wizards in the Empire.


IIRC Teclis turned up after Magnus had united the Empire, so that probably depends on how static they hold the timeline.


After he united them but before being Emperor. Teclis was at the Siege. He and two other Elven mages joined to help Magnus.


Right, but at that point, Teclis was still recruiting hedge wizards to help. The colleges aren't formed until afterwards when Magnus concedes how helpful the wizards were in defeating Asavar Kul. I imagine the difference will be negligible, but it's neat as a concept. Gives someone more freedom to convert interesting human wizards that don't fit any of the college molds.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477105.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477105.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477107.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477107.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Spoiler:
 insaniak wrote:
 Tamereth wrote:
And the talk about the end times happened, the world still blows up, Nobody cares. Everyone I know that still has any interest in Warhammer Fantasy pretends the end times never happened.

I suspect that statement was more to clarify that the overall story isn't changing, which stops speculation over whether revisiting the setting will affect AoS.

Ultimately, there's not really any need to 'ignore' the End Times in order to play games in the Old World, any more than you need to ignore WWII in order to play WWI games. You're simply playing in a different part of the timeline.


I don’t know why, but it matters a great deal to me. I enjoyed the Old World, but have struggled to read any novels or assemble any models set in the Old World since it was destroyed. Knowing that it ends, and how it ends, has killed the setting for me. I have no interest in playing “historical Warhammer” games or exploring events that lead to Planet Booms Everybody Dies.


I think the closest way to explain it is…did you ever know anyone who was really excited about the TV show Lost while it was airing? Have they shown any enthusiasm for Lost since it ended?

While I don't feel this way about Warhammer The Old World, I can definitely understand the sentiment. I feel similarly about Star Wars since the retro-erasure of the old expanded universe. No intense feelings about the stuff they put out one way or the other and can't really muster much enthusiasm. "Huh. Neat," is about the temperature I can manage for any of it. Very much the "Once bitten, twice shy," feeling.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477108.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477108.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Imo, It would probably be better for MESBG if they didn't follow the original Trilogy and GW was allowed to do their own little spin off thing that covers Middle Earth after the fall of Sauron.
Then they could do their perpetual setting schtick where it's not obvious who's going to win or lose.
Warner will most likely never allow this though.


That would be terrible and most likely lead into Rings of Power levels of drivel.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477110.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477110.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Quote is still a quote, and being first party the best evidence we currently have. So for now, the question of scale and backwards compatibility is addressed.


Important note on scale - GW maintains that their miniatures scale has remained consistent and the miniatures being produced today are in the same scale as the miniatures produced 30-40 years ago.

Put a modern day miniature from the last 2-3 years next to a miniature they produced in the 80s or 90s and we immediately know that they don't scale well to eachother.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Imo, It would probably be better for MESBG if they didn't follow the original Trilogy and GW was allowed to do their own little spin off thing that covers Middle Earth after the fall of Sauron.
Then they could do their perpetual setting schtick where it's not obvious who's going to win or lose.
Warner will most likely never allow this though.
As for the Old World being "historical", yeah it kind of is, unless they go heavy into what-if scenarios.
Like that DLC for CK2 about what would happen if the Aztecs invaded Ireland. Remember that CK2 is technically a 'historical' game, that covers scenarios such as :
- Scandinavia remaining Norse, well into the late middle ages
- Immortal monarchs
- Literal devil worship
- Aztecs invading Europe
- The return of the Zoroastrian Persian Empire
As such, it is not entirely out of the question for GW to do something "ahistorical" such as introducing Lizardmen as part of some weird what-if expansion where they invade Bretonnia.
They probably won't have Gelt or Helblaster / Helstorms though, because that would be really be pushing it. Not even CK2 had tanks.


As GW have yet to do a "Dornian Heresy" scenario for Horus Heresy, its safe to assume they aren't going to do it for Old World. The reasons why they don't do alternate history/parallel timeline nonsense should be fairly obvious from a branding standpoint.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477113.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477113.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Imo, It would probably be better for MESBG if they didn't follow the original Trilogy and GW was allowed to do their own little spin off thing that covers Middle Earth after the fall of Sauron.
Then they could do their perpetual setting schtick where it's not obvious who's going to win or lose.
Warner will most likely never allow this though.


That would be terrible and most likely lead into Rings of Power levels of drivel.

I dunno, Shadow of __ is a spin off that takes place before the events of LoTR and those games turned out ok. Kind of weird canonically but the execution was decent.
RoP was crap because it had crap directors, actors and writers who didn't understand the source material or anything about cinematography. Wasn't RoP loosely based on parts of the Simarillion?

A spin off that takes place after the main story is a lot less egregious than one that is meant to be before anyway.
Fewer continuity errors and chronological weirdness.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477116.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477116.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 insaniak wrote:
For a wargame setting, though, the point is just to give you some background to make the battle seem more interesting.


Warhammer in all of its incarnations has long since bulldozed past being just some broad context for pushing toy soldiers around the table.

In storytelling, endings matter.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477119.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477119.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Imo, It would probably be better for MESBG if they didn't follow the original Trilogy and GW was allowed to do their own little spin off thing that covers Middle Earth after the fall of Sauron.
Then they could do their perpetual setting schtick where it's not obvious who's going to win or lose.
Warner will most likely never allow this though.


That would be terrible and most likely lead into Rings of Power levels of drivel.

I dunno, Shadow of __ is a spin off that takes place before the events of LoTR and those games turned out ok. Kind of weird canonically but the execution was decent.
RoP was crap because it had crap directors, actors and writers who didn't understand the source material or anything about cinematography. Wasn't RoP loosely based on parts of the Simarillion?

A spin off that takes place after the main story is a lot less egregious than one that is meant to be before anyway.
Fewer continuity errors and chronological weirdness.


The gameplay of Shadow was alright, but what it did to the story and characters was a genuine abomination. Same as RoP.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477120.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477120.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
JimmyWolf87 wrote:
Will be interesting to see how they incorporate the Vampire Counts into this period; presumably there's still some minor Von-Carsteins lingering in Sylvania (might be having their own fun little succession crisis to mirror the Empire) and there's always scope for isolated Vamps from other bloodlines. Neferata is always going to be about.


The Von Carstiens are the one most associated with the Empire but they are IIRc quiet during the Great War against Chaos - Mannfred was defeated in 2145 and Neferata's Sisterhood has also been keeping an eye on the remaining vamps in Sylvania so they don't start any more wars!

There are vampires in Kislev - after all they did have a vampire Tzarina. Kattarin immediately after the Great War ends! She reigned from 2309 to 2465 so be interesting to see if she appears and if they incoprorate her story.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477121.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477121.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. In the name of nostalgia, they must make chainsaw warrior and space marines for ToW.

(Just kidding folk. just remembered when some guys talked about alternative timelines).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477125.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477125.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Imo, It would probably be better for MESBG if they didn't follow the original Trilogy and GW was allowed to do their own little spin off thing that covers Middle Earth after the fall of Sauron.
Then they could do their perpetual setting schtick where it's not obvious who's going to win or lose.
Warner will most likely never allow this though.


That would be terrible and most likely lead into Rings of Power levels of drivel.

I dunno, Shadow of __ is a spin off that takes place before the events of LoTR and those games turned out ok. Kind of weird canonically but the execution was decent.
RoP was crap because it had crap directors, actors and writers who didn't understand the source material or anything about cinematography. Wasn't RoP loosely based on parts of the Simarillion?

A spin off that takes place after the main story is a lot less egregious than one that is meant to be before anyway.
Fewer continuity errors and chronological weirdness.


The gameplay of Shadow was alright, but what it did to the story and characters was a genuine abomination. Same as RoP.

Fair enough. I did get really confused about the whole Celebrimbor thing and how they made him a power hungry tyrant.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477126.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477126.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Imo, It would probably be better for MESBG if they didn't follow the original Trilogy and GW was allowed to do their own little spin off thing that covers Middle Earth after the fall of Sauron.
Then they could do their perpetual setting schtick where it's not obvious who's going to win or lose.
Warner will most likely never allow this though.


That would be terrible and most likely lead into Rings of Power levels of drivel.

I dunno, Shadow of __ is a spin off that takes place before the events of LoTR and those games turned out ok. Kind of weird canonically but the execution was decent.
RoP was crap because it had crap directors, actors and writers who didn't understand the source material or anything about cinematography. Wasn't RoP loosely based on parts of the Simarillion?

A spin off that takes place after the main story is a lot less egregious than one that is meant to be before anyway.
Fewer continuity errors and chronological weirdness.


The gameplay of Shadow was alright, but what it did to the story and characters was a genuine abomination. Same as RoP.

Fair enough. I did get really confused about the whole Celebrimbor thing and how they made him a power hungry tyrant.


It did not help that they were specifically forbidden from using anything from the Silmarillion, so they basically had to do a huge song and dance around anything resembling the actual Tolkienian story.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477127.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477127.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477129.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477129.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Mr Morden wrote:
So getting back to the Old Word rather than Middle Earth - another cool pic

Spoiler:


It would have been cooler if they had taken inspiration from slightly earlier Early-Modern clothing styles to visualize that it's about 300 years distant from when we last saw the Empire.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477131.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477131.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. I also noticed this :


He should not have a flintlock pistol. I really doubt Imperial fire arms tech is the same as it was 300 years before. It should be a wheellock at most, and he should be a higher ranking soldier to show how uncommon pistols are.

Long arms would probably fine for rank and file though. But again, they wouldn't be flintlocks.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477133.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477133.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Scottywan82 wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Baragash wrote:
 Scottywan82 wrote:
I find it fascinating that this is set before the Siege of Praag, because isn't that also before the existence of the Colleges of Magic? I am kind of excited to see hedge wizards in the Empire.


IIRC Teclis turned up after Magnus had united the Empire, so that probably depends on how static they hold the timeline.


After he united them but before being Emperor. Teclis was at the Siege. He and two other Elven mages joined to help Magnus.


Right, but at that point, Teclis was still recruiting hedge wizards to help. The colleges aren't formed until afterwards when Magnus concedes how helpful the wizards were in defeating Asavar Kul. I imagine the difference will be negligible, but it's neat as a concept. Gives someone more freedom to convert interesting human wizards that don't fit any of the college molds.


Yeah, I was just giving context as to part of why Teclis founded them. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477135.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477135.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, it does look a little too much like the Empire we know. He should probably have more armor and less puffy clothing.
I also noticed this :


He should not have a flintlock pistol. I really doubt Imperial fire arms tech is the same as it was 300 years before. It should be a wheellock at most, and he should be a higher ranking soldier to show how uncommon pistols are.

Long arms would probably fine for rank and file though. But again, they wouldn't be flintlocks.


Apparently TOW is going to be set 'decades before the Great War against Chaos' - the first gunnery school in Nuln is said to have been established 'in the century leading up to the GWaC' so it would be pretty much in this epoch that blackpowder weapons would become standardized and quasi-industrialized. I guess Nuln forces will be more blackpowder-heavy; common blackpowder arms should be predominantly matchlocks, with some wheel locks thrown in as particularly well-made examples, and flintlocks or snaplocks should be either top-of-the-line exceptional pieces of art or dwarven work.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477137.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477137.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, it does look a little too much like the Empire we know. He should probably have more armor and less puffy clothing.
I also noticed this :
Spoiler:


He should not have a flintlock pistol. I really doubt Imperial fire arms tech is the same as it was 300 years before. It should be a wheellock at most, and he should be a higher ranking soldier to show how uncommon pistols are.

Long arms would probably fine for rank and file though. But again, they wouldn't be flintlocks.


I don't think pistols are necessarily uncommon at this point. They're not exactly 'rare' for random mercenaries 200 years before The Old World period in Mordheim (which were also flintlocks FWIW); just relatively uncommon compared to other projectiles and somewhat unreliable. You also have to factor in that a lot of this tech comes via Dwarfs so the developments that go into progressing from, say, wheellocks to flintlocks have probably already been done before they ever reach the Empire (if they even took place at all; let's not fall into the trap of assuming all development is directly translatable from our world. Historical 'accuracy' is a bit moot).

That isn't to say that it might not have been nice to see a different aesthetic to distinguish them from the 'modern' Empire troops but this game is designed specifically to tug those nostalgia strings and have you guzzling down the member-berries so I can't really take too much issue with the choice.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477140.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477140.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
problem is simple that in 2500, standard issue state troop arms are Matchlocks
if Flintlocks are available, there is no reason for having Matchlocks any more

Wheellock was a different thing, more complicated to manufacture, operate and maintain
hence it co-existed with Matchlocks for a while and even was still present as Flintlocks were common (as it has some advantages)


but than, the Militia (?) on the left is completely designed in 17th century outfit, not just the weapons]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477145.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477145.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 kodos wrote:
we had this discussion before

problem is simple that in 2500, standard issue state troop arms are Matchlocks
if Flintlocks are available, there is no reason for having Matchlocks any more

Wheellock was a different thing, more complicated to manufacture, operate and maintain
hence it co-existed with Matchlocks for a while and even was still present as Flintlocks were common (as it has some advantages)


but than, the Militia (?) on the left is completely designed in 17th century outfit, not just the weapons


It's a bit maddening because other stuff like the fastenings on the clothes are pretty much spot-on, but then you have weird stuff like all ruffled sleeves all the time thrown in, or the nonsensical codpiece on the Zweihander dude ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477146.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477146.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477148.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477148.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477149.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477149.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 kodos wrote:
we had this discussion before

problem is simple that in 2500, standard issue state troop arms are Matchlocks
if Flintlocks are available, there is no reason for having Matchlocks any more

Wheellock was a different thing, more complicated to manufacture, operate and maintain
hence it co-existed with Matchlocks for a while and even was still present as Flintlocks were common (as it has some advantages)


but than, the Militia (?) on the left is completely designed in 17th century outfit, not just the weapons


Depends which version; I won't pretend to be au fait with gunnery in any respect but I think the 4th-6th Edition era WHF State Troops had flintlocks no? It was only the most recent (and oft-maligned) state-trooper kit that had matchlocks; which, I guess, fit the seemingly 'regressive' visual design scope, along with a lack of boots or teeth but doesn't seem to be where the TOW artwork is going. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477152.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477152.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Overread wrote:
It's almost like they don't copy real world styles, fashions and technological developments in a fantasy setting


I'd pay good money if the Empire people were just randomly styled like cowboys from the old west - perhaps that style was en vogue in the Old World before 'Renaissance Landsknecht' became the dominant look, i mean who knows... Just imagine some rawhide dudes in flanell shirts and jeans running about and shouting about Sigmar and Chaos ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477153.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477153.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Overread wrote:
It's almost like they don't copy real world styles, fashions and technological developments in a fantasy setting


Absolutely. I'm happy for history to provide inspiration but I certainly don't need a direct transposition of the minutiae of uniform or progression of gear into the Warhammer setting for it to be credible or enjoyable. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477155.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477155.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Ikit Claw, Aekold Helbrass (other warriors of chaos?) maybe some elves and/or dwarves?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477174.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477174.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Shuma-Gorath wrote:
Special Character wise, who apart from gods, undead and daemons are actually around during this setting?

Ikit Claw, Aekold Helbrass (other warriors of chaos?) maybe some elves and/or dwarves?


The Skaven are kind of occupied at that time, as they're in the last decades of their 400-year second civil war, which will culminate in the personal apparition of the Great Horned Rat in the same year the GWaC breaks out.

Anyway, all the Slann that are still alive are obviously around, and the non-divine Elves too, as well as some of the older Dwarves.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477180.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477180.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477196.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477196.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Galas wrote:
I don't find playing WHFB in a historical context different than playing MESBG and I love me some MESBG even if I know my easterling army is gonna be defeated in the story or that Sauron is gonna lose and everybody is gonna live happily ever after.


And I have no interest in gaming in a done, dead setting.

Again, it’s great it works for you and many others. But GW is alienating a lot of people who don’t feel the same way towards “historical” gaming.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477198.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477198.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Shuma-Gorath wrote:
Special Character wise, who apart from gods, undead and daemons are actually around during this setting?

Ikit Claw, Aekold Helbrass (other warriors of chaos?) maybe some elves and/or dwarves?


Ikit-Claw wouldn't have been born yet. Skaven lifespan is only 20-30 years with Grey Seers having an extended life span of 60+, barring constant access to the stuff that kept the council alive and kicking(and even then, I believe the oldest member of the final council was almost 170 according to the Thanquoul novels). Queek DID have some of that, which is why he survived until nearly 40, though his reflexes and strength had started failing him before being killed.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477202.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477202.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Shuma-Gorath wrote:
Special Character wise, who apart from gods, undead and daemons are actually around during this setting?

Ikit Claw, Aekold Helbrass (other warriors of chaos?) maybe some elves and/or dwarves?


Ikit-Claw wouldn't have been born yet. Skaven lifespan is only 20-30 years with Grey Seers having an extended life span of 60+, barring constant access to the stuff that kept the council alive and kicking(and even then, I believe the oldest member of the final council was almost 170 according to the Thanquoul novels). Queek DID have some of that, which is why he survived until nearly 40, though his reflexes and strength had started failing him before being killed.


Ikit has been on a movie montage style quest to the mysterious lands in the east and learned karate, magic and the secret of prolonging his life by unnatural means over there. Him being alive at that time is also mentioned in the 7th edition army book.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477205.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477205.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
JimmyWolf87 wrote:
Depends which version; I won't pretend to be au fait with gunnery in any respect but I think the 4th-6th Edition era WHF State Troops had flintlocks no? It was only the most recent (and oft-maligned) state-trooper kit that had matchlocks; which, I guess, fit the seemingly 'regressive' visual design scope, along with a lack of boots or teeth but doesn't seem to be where the TOW artwork is going.

the 4th Edition Metal ones had Flintlocks, the 6th Edition Plastic ones Matchlocks
and the 8th Edition ones while being nice to make something for Nordland or other poor provinces, it was more like "make them look poor so that it is clear that those are from the past"
Tsagualsa wrote:
It's a bit maddening because other stuff like the fastenings on the clothes are pretty much spot-on, but then you have weird stuff like all ruffled sleeves all the time thrown in, or the nonsensical codpiece on the Zweihander dude

Fun-Fact, being modeled after a Doppelsöldner the codpiece is a mandatory part of the armour design
it became a part of fashion because people thought it looked cool later on, but was "invented" by the guys who were fighting "singles" and not within a defensive line (a two handed weapon needs space to be effective, so they were fighting outside the formation) and wanted to prevent enemies from hitting the weakspot of the armour between the legs hence a thick wool cover there]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477209.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477209.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477214.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477214.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 kodos wrote:
JimmyWolf87 wrote:
Depends which version; I won't pretend to be au fait with gunnery in any respect but I think the 4th-6th Edition era WHF State Troops had flintlocks no? It was only the most recent (and oft-maligned) state-trooper kit that had matchlocks; which, I guess, fit the seemingly 'regressive' visual design scope, along with a lack of boots or teeth but doesn't seem to be where the TOW artwork is going.

the 4th Edition Metal ones had Flintlocks, the 6th Edition Plastic ones Matchlocks
and the 8th Edition ones while being nice to make something for Nordland or other poor provinces, it was more like "make them look poor so that it is clear that those are from the past"
Tsagualsa wrote:
It's a bit maddening because other stuff like the fastenings on the clothes are pretty much spot-on, but then you have weird stuff like all ruffled sleeves all the time thrown in, or the nonsensical codpiece on the Zweihander dude

Fun-Fact, being modeled after a Doppelsöldner the codpiece is a mandatory part of the armour design
it became a part of fashion because people thought it looked cool later on, but was "invented" by the guys who were fighting "singles" and not within a defensive line (a two handed weapon needs space to be effective, so they were fighting outside the formation) and wanted to prevent enemies from hitting the weakspot of the armour between the legs hence a thick wool cover there


The codpiece was a development that derived from the piece of cloth that was used to cover the 'hole' left between the two pant-hoses back when a 'pair of pants' consisted of two separate tubes that were fastened to the shirt or belt with strings - the codpiece in this picture just looks like a current-time pair of pants with a sock stuffed in. It is nonsensical because it lacks the actual functional aspect of a codpiece, not because it is not part of the look ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477217.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477217.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Shuma-Gorath wrote:
Special Character wise, who apart from gods, undead and daemons are actually around during this setting?

Ikit Claw, Aekold Helbrass (other warriors of chaos?) maybe some elves and/or dwarves?


Ikit-Claw wouldn't have been born yet. Skaven lifespan is only 20-30 years with Grey Seers having an extended life span of 60+, barring constant access to the stuff that kept the council alive and kicking(and even then, I believe the oldest member of the final council was almost 170 according to the Thanquoul novels). Queek DID have some of that, which is why he survived until nearly 40, though his reflexes and strength had started failing him before being killed.


Ikit Claw is centuries old by the time of the End Times. He was alive when the Red Pox was unleashed by Pestilens upon Bretonnia in the 1800s.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477223.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477223.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Rihgu wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Shuma-Gorath wrote:
Special Character wise, who apart from gods, undead and daemons are actually around during this setting?

Ikit Claw, Aekold Helbrass (other warriors of chaos?) maybe some elves and/or dwarves?


Ikit-Claw wouldn't have been born yet. Skaven lifespan is only 20-30 years with Grey Seers having an extended life span of 60+, barring constant access to the stuff that kept the council alive and kicking(and even then, I believe the oldest member of the final council was almost 170 according to the Thanquoul novels). Queek DID have some of that, which is why he survived until nearly 40, though his reflexes and strength had started failing him before being killed.


Ikit Claw is centuries old by the time of the End Times. He was alive when the Red Pox was unleashed by Pestilens upon Bretonnia in the 1800s.


By the time of the second Skaven civil war, which coincides with the time period TOW is apparently going to be set in, Ikit was the right-hand man of Morskittar, which made him the second in command of clan Skryre, and as such a major player in the war.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477228.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477228.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Tsagualsa wrote:

The codpiece was a development that derived from the piece of cloth that was used to cover the 'hole' left between the two pant-hoses back when a 'pair of pants' consisted of two separate tubes that were fastened to the shirt or belt with strings - the codpiece in this picture just looks like a current-time pair of pants with a sock stuffed in. It is nonsensical because it lacks the actual functional aspect of a codpiece, not because it is not part of the look

yes and no, to overstuffed thing like it is seen on the picture was typical for Landsknecht armour as they protected their private parts

Spoiler:




]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477235.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477235.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
I also do like the fairly moderate fantasy elements. No hordes of pegasi or demigryps, but real hard men.

Do you guys think comp will be lords, heroes, troops, special and rare? And with % or with a number or picks, lik 0-4 special for a 2500 army?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477250.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477250.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 triplegrim wrote:
Have to say I am relieved to see greatswords, as I have 3×25 of them painted up.

I also do like the fairly moderate fantasy elements. No hordes of pegasi or demigryps, but real hard men.

Do you guys think comp will be lords, heroes, troops, special and rare? And with % or with a number or picks, lik 0-4 special for a 2500 army?


From the way they present all this i have a baseless gut feeling that armies are going to be a lot smaller than armies at the end of WHFB, with rank-and-file infantry blocks being more like one choice among several you can take and not a given baseline for each army. I think it's going to be closer to Warhammer Skirmish than to WHFB in scope.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477252.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477252.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Overread wrote:
It's almost like they don't copy real world styles, fashions and technological developments in a fantasy setting


I'm pretty sure there's artwork of events hundreds of years ago with Empire Characters in very similar styles too, so its not like it's something they've suddenly done. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477253.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477253.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Paymaster Games wrote:
spoiler]I am super pumped for the Old World. I am really looking forward to bringing my army back to the table top. I have been painting new units to build up the army.

JUst as a review - GW has stated that all of the armies will playable and GW wants you to use your old models.

Here list of armies of the Old World as we know it
Empire -
Middenhiem/ Cult of Ulric
Marienburg - Will likely be mercenary based. There has been play testing that suffaced that includes Tilean Pikesmen that seems to lend some wieght to this rumor
Reikland - Cult of Sigmar
Talabheim - a mixed army likely including Halflings and Dwarfs
Bretonnia
Wood Elves
Dwarfs
Greenskins
Chaos -
Beastmen
Grand army of Chaos ( Would likely include new models for Valnir the Reaper and Scyla Anfingrimm both died at the Siege of Praag)
Kislev
Cathey
Tomb Kings

Unconfermed but likely a part of the game
Vampire Counts (The Vampire Wars happoned during this period)
Chaos Dwarfs (Their Icons are on the map)
Hobgoblin Khans (Their Icons are on the Map and concept sketches have been released)
High Elves (Their Icons are on the map)
Dark Elves (Large portions of thier army is still on shelves)
Lizardmen (Their whole army is still on the shelves)
Ogre Kingdoms (Their whole army is still on the shelves)
Skaven (Their whole army is still on the shelves)

The only true army that does not have any clues that it may be part of the game is the Dogs of War (Tilean City States). They were very active durring this period, and Leonardo da Miragliano was alive and very active in Tilea and the Empire. As a mercenary general myself this is the one i want to see the most, but i am not going to get my hopes up if Tileans are going to be part of the Marienburg army.
/spoiler]


I'll take Tileans in any form, be they thier own list or just rolled into Marienburg. I've had enough landsknechts for one lifetime already, and am saddned (but not surprised) that the empire's troops are just gonne be rehashes of them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477265.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477265.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:



I might be slow on the assumtion, but these images show us exactly the classic huntsmen an free company militia models? This applies to the bretonnian, tomb kings an orc pictures aswell.

I mean, if we know that an army is rolled out about 1.5 - 2 years ( see sisters of battle ) and we have concept art from Kislev and Cathay, would that be that we are going to see a soft reboot, aka old minis + max 2 or 3 new armies ( 3rd is the rebooted Empire ) at maximum at launch?



]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477271.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477271.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477275.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477275.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 triplegrim wrote:
Have to say I am relieved to see greatswords, as I have 3×25 of them painted up.

I also do like the fairly moderate fantasy elements. No hordes of pegasi or demigryps, but real hard men.

Do you guys think comp will be lords, heroes, troops, special and rare? And with % or with a number or picks, lik 0-4 special for a 2500 army?



If they use percentages to establish comp then I am out immediately. One of the many things that 8th Edition did that sealed me off of keeping up with Games Workshop games completely was percentages along with some of the other piss poor game design choices. If this is essentially eight but without monstrous cavalry, then I'm out.


Also, the last thread we had was locked because of the whole bunch of people nitpicking a bunch of minutiae from outside sources drowning the news thread with complete pendantry. Why are we starting this over again, people?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477276.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477276.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Just Tony wrote:

If they use percentages to establish comp then I am out immediately. One of the many things that 8th Edition did that sealed me off of keeping up with Games Workshop games completely was percentages along with some of the other piss poor game design choices. If this is essentially eight but without monstrous cavalry, then I'm out.


Also, the last thread we had was locked because of the whole bunch of people nitpicking a bunch of minutiae from outside sources drowning the news thread with complete pendantry. Why are we starting this over again, people?


They've said a mix of rules plus some new ones, I get the feeling that 6th edition is the basis, which is excellent.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477290.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477290.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477291.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477291.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Shuma-Gorath wrote:
Special Character wise, who apart from gods, undead and daemons are actually around during this setting?

Ikit Claw, Aekold Helbrass (other warriors of chaos?) maybe some elves and/or dwarves?


Ok this who i know was alive or active during the 3 Emperors Period

Empire - Mangus the Pious
Chaos - Valnir the Reaper, Scyla Anfingrimm, Aekold Helbrass, Arbaal the Undefeated
GreenSkins - Gorbad Ironclaw
Vampire Counts - Vlad and Isabella Von Carlstine, Konrad Von Carlstine, Manfred Von Carlstine
Tomb Kings - Settra, Khalida
Undead - Arkhan the Black, (Nagash was still healing during this time and was not active)
Skaven - Ikit Claw
Bretonnian - Repanse de Lyonesse
Dogs of War/ Tilea - Leonardo da Miragliano
Dwarfs - All of the Dwarf SCs where alive during this time, but may not hold their current positions. Gotrek likely has not committed his sin that let him to become a Slayer at this time. Bugman is young by Dwarf standards and may not have been born yet
Wood elves, High Elves, and Dark Elves - Elves are immortal and were likely alive during this time with one exception. Skraw the Falconer is considered young by Elf standards and may not have been born yet.
Chaos Dwarf - Astragoth was alive during this period
Lizardmen - All Slann

If i missed any i am sorry
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477292.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477292.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Paymaster Games wrote:
 Shuma-Gorath wrote:
Special Character wise, who apart from gods, undead and daemons are actually around during this setting?

Ikit Claw, Aekold Helbrass (other warriors of chaos?) maybe some elves and/or dwarves?


Ok this who i know was alive or active during the 3 Emperors Period

Empire - Mangus the Pious
Chaos - Valnir the Reaper, Scyla Anfingrimm, Aekold Helbrass, Arbaal the Undefeated
GreenSkins - Gorbad Ironclaw
Vampire Counts - Vlad and Isabella Von Carlstine, Konrad Von Carlstine, Manfred Von Carlstine
Tomb Kings - Settra, Khalida
Undead - Arkhan the Black, (Nagash was still healing during this time and was not active)
Skaven - Ikit Claw
Bretonnian - Repanse de Lyonesse
Dogs of War/ Tilea - Leonardo da Miragliano
Dwarfs - All of the Dwarf SCs where alive during this time, but may not hold their current positions. Gotrek likely has not committed his sin that let him to become a Slayer at this time. Bugman is young by Dwarf standards and may not have been born yet
Wood elves, High Elves, and Dark Elves - Elves are immortal and were likely alive during this time with one exception. Skraw the Falconer is considered young by Elf standards and may not have been born yet.
Chaos Dwarf - Astragoth was alive during this period
Lizardmen - All Slann

If i missed any i am sorry


By the time of the Great War Against Chaos in 2300 - all the major von Carsteins are destroyed or pretending (Mannfred) to be but most of the other major vampires from the other major bloodlines are about and active.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477296.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477296.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Twilight Pathways wrote:
Am I the only one who feels it's set too close to the End Times? Knowing that it all ends in just a couple of hundred years is a bit of a shame. I know there are reasons for setting it in this time period but it still feels a bit cramped


I agree its perhaps a bit of a cop-out, because I feel we've done "Big War against Chaos" multiple times at this point. (Admittedly, like super-hero origin stories, this assumes you've been here for decades, its potentially new for other people.)

But equally, if you go much earlier, it seems you are reduced to something specific (i.e. Empire vs Vampires, Empire vs Skaven) and I'm not sure what the other factions are doing. Which maybe isn't as much of a problem if you use the scope to write new stories, but that would likely cause lots of complaining. People like a setting.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477302.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477302.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Tyel wrote:
Twilight Pathways wrote:
Am I the only one who feels it's set too close to the End Times? Knowing that it all ends in just a couple of hundred years is a bit of a shame. I know there are reasons for setting it in this time period but it still feels a bit cramped


I agree its perhaps a bit of a cop-out, because I feel we've done "Big War against Chaos" multiple times at this point. (Admittedly, like super-hero origin stories, this assumes you've been here for decades, its potentially new for other people.)

But equally, if you go much earlier, it seems you are reduced to something specific (i.e. Empire vs Vampires, Empire vs Skaven) and I'm not sure what the other factions are doing. Which maybe isn't as much of a problem if you use the scope to write new stories, but that would likely cause lots of complaining. People like a setting.


Plus the storylines they use to drive campaigns aren't going to go anywhere near "modern" (i.e. 200 years later) fantasy in the timeline. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477308.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477308.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Just Tony wrote:
 triplegrim wrote:
Have to say I am relieved to see greatswords, as I have 3×25 of them painted up.

I also do like the fairly moderate fantasy elements. No hordes of pegasi or demigryps, but real hard men.

Do you guys think comp will be lords, heroes, troops, special and rare? And with % or with a number or picks, lik 0-4 special for a 2500 army?



If they use percentages to establish comp then I am out immediately. One of the many things that 8th Edition did that sealed me off of keeping up with Games Workshop games completely was percentages along with some of the other piss poor game design choices. If this is essentially eight but without monstrous cavalry, then I'm out.


Also, the last thread we had was locked because of the whole bunch of people nitpicking a bunch of minutiae from outside sources drowning the news thread with complete pendantry. Why are we starting this over again, people?


Isn't 6th the only edition that didn't use percentages? Off the top of my head, 3rd, 5th and 8th all did. Not sure about 7th.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477312.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477312.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
Hoping that we get models etc for the different priests / warrior priests of different cults of the Empire in the new rules as Sigmar was not quite as pre-emminent in this period]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477314.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477314.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477317.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477317.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Tyel wrote:
Am I the only one who feels it's set too close to the End Times? Knowing that it all ends in just a couple of hundred years is a bit of a shame. I know there are reasons for setting it in this time period but it still feels a bit cramped
it is not about the setting being done
it is more about telling people that the other game is still the main game

is not like we know Horus would not win but still play HH, it is like announcing the new Horus Heresy game with the words "and the destruction of Cadia was already foreshadowed during the Horus Heresy"
this new game is about telling the story how Cadia was doomed since forever?


it just makes not much sense to tell people that the new game with an unexplored timeline and countless scenarios, is again all about the one event that actually killed it]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477319.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477319.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Just Tony wrote:
f they use percentages to establish comp then I am out immediately. One of the many things that 8th Edition did that sealed me off of keeping up with Games Workshop games completely was percentages along with some of the other piss poor game design choices. If this is essentially eight but without monstrous cavalry, then I'm out.

...what've you got against percentages, Tony?

Especially when I'm pretty sure you only need to be able to work out 50% and 25% of your total points budget to get the brackets - would it be less painful if they gave you a table with the breakdown for different sizes of game, but the % as a reference point if you were playing a value outside the defined ones?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477322.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477322.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 nathan2004 wrote:
I don’t get it, we enjoy Horus heresy (or I do) knowing the ending to that story. Are Luna wolf/sons of Horus players bitter at their genefather getting killed?


That’s not quite the same thing as knowing all the characters die like punks and the entire setting is destroyed, reduced to ashes, and the ashes salted. The 40k setting was a good storytelling outcome, and still lives. Nit at all the same thing.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477329.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477329.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477332.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477332.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Twilight Pathways wrote:
Am I the only one who feels it's set too close to the End Times? Knowing that it all ends in just a couple of hundred years is a bit of a shame. I know there are reasons for setting it in this time period but it still feels a bit cramped


I feel like setting it relatively close is the best way to get WHFB "back" as much as it can be. Far enough to leave a gap they can explore and do plenty with, but still not so much of a difference that it's basically a completely different setting. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477336.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477336.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 nathan2004 wrote:
I don’t get it, we enjoy Horus heresy (or I do) knowing the ending to that story. Are Luna wolf/sons of Horus players bitter at their genefather getting killed?


I think it's because HH started as a history and then became a setting, rather than the other way around. I agree, it shouldn't matter, but it seems to. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477338.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477338.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 kodos wrote:
Tyel wrote:
Am I the only one who feels it's set too close to the End Times? Knowing that it all ends in just a couple of hundred years is a bit of a shame. I know there are reasons for setting it in this time period but it still feels a bit cramped
it is not about the setting being done
it is more about telling people that the other game is still the main game

is not like we know Horus would not win but still play HH, it is like announcing the new Horus Heresy game with the words "and the destruction of Cadia was already foreshadowed during the Horus Heresy"
this new game is about telling the story how Cadia was doomed since forever?


it just makes not much sense to tell people that the new game with an unexplored timeline and countless scenarios, is again all about the one event that actually killed it


Makes no difference to me. I've never been worried about GWs ongoing story, be it WHFB, 40k, or AoS, just the ones that get forged on our tables.
I just want a decent rank & file fantasy game.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477346.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477346.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Olthannon wrote:
I'm hoping for some awesome priests of Taal to add to my Talabecland army.


4 flavors of empire sounds good. And mirror the four flavors of skaven, chaos and vampires, no?

Hope the game is closer to skirmish than the bloated 8th, of I have to take a pick.

Always thought all those army deal boxes from the early 2000s were perfect sizes for a 'large' force. I get headaches just looking at my enormous csm forces at 2000pts these days, and they are supposed to be elite and smallish forces.









]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477354.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477354.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.

MaxT wrote:
It’s a weird hill to die on, there’s a wealth of stories, characters, campaigns that can be told within the Old World setting regardless of if in multiple generations of its timelines future it changed into something else. It’s your opinion and that’s cool, but it’s certainly a massive minority one.


It doesn’t appear to be a “massive minority” here, or anywhere else The End Times comes up. Of course, we don’t know how many more people who feel this way have already left and aren’t even sticking around to post about it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477355.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477355.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
ccs wrote:
I just want a decent rank & file fantasy game.

oh well, then this is the worst possible place to look at (and without the story, there is not much left be excited about)

if you want a decent R&F game from GW, War of the Ring or Warmaster are your best option

the only reason I even care a litte about that game at all is the story line
the chance is very low that I play it even if the story is good as I don't expect much from the rules (and GW will find a way to mess it up anyway), but if the story is bad too, I am not even going to buy the books

 Dysartes wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
f they use percentages to establish comp then I am out immediately. One of the many things that 8th Edition did that sealed me off of keeping up with Games Workshop games completely was percentages along with some of the other piss poor game design choices. If this is essentially eight but without monstrous cavalry, then I'm out.

...what've you got against percentages, Tony?

Especially when I'm pretty sure you only need to be able to work out 50% and 25% of your total points budget to get the brackets - would it be less painful if they gave you a table with the breakdown for different sizes of game, but the % as a reference point if you were playing a value outside the defined ones?

the main problem in the past with % was the difference between Hero Hammer and an R&F game
if it is again all about Heroes and with the units being just there to increase the HP pool, there is not much point in making an R&F game]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477362.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477362.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Paymaster Games wrote:
 Shuma-Gorath wrote:
Special Character wise, who apart from gods, undead and daemons are actually around during this setting?

Ikit Claw, Aekold Helbrass (other warriors of chaos?) maybe some elves and/or dwarves?


Ok this who i know was alive or active during the 3 Emperors Period

Empire - Mangus the Pious
Chaos - Valnir the Reaper, Scyla Anfingrimm, Aekold Helbrass, Arbaal the Undefeated
GreenSkins - Gorbad Ironclaw
Vampire Counts - Vlad and Isabella Von Carlstine, Konrad Von Carlstine, Manfred Von Carlstine
Tomb Kings - Settra, Khalida
Undead - Arkhan the Black, (Nagash was still healing during this time and was not active)
Skaven - Ikit Claw
Bretonnian - Repanse de Lyonesse
Dogs of War/ Tilea - Leonardo da Miragliano
Dwarfs - All of the Dwarf SCs where alive during this time, but may not hold their current positions. Gotrek likely has not committed his sin that let him to become a Slayer at this time. Bugman is young by Dwarf standards and may not have been born yet
Wood elves, High Elves, and Dark Elves - Elves are immortal and were likely alive during this time with one exception. Skraw the Falconer is considered young by Elf standards and may not have been born yet.
Chaos Dwarf - Astragoth was alive during this period
Lizardmen - All Slann

If i missed any i am sorry


There's also a noteworthy Undead that was long gone by the time the End Times came, but was specifically active during the time period of TOW: Dieter Helsnicht, the Doom Lord of Middenheim. Among other things, he did a quest in search of the great necromancer Kadon, and met Nagash in his regenerating state in Nagashizzar, then returned to the Empire and waged war on the Middenheimers.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477363.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477363.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. GW are going for. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477365.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477365.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If the game is all you care about, why even weigh in in the setting? The game means nothing to me (and others) without a compelling setting, a reason to care.


Except that the Time of the Four Emperors and the Great War is a compelling setting. Yes, we know the major points of Asavar Kul's invasion, but just like the Horus Heresy, this is a chance to expand on the history of the setting and learn the details leading up to the Great War. To the characters alive during the decades living up to the End Times, this IS their Horus Heresy. It's literally the most significant event in Imperial history since the founding of the Empire. Hell, if it wasn't a compelling and memorable time for Warhammer players, why have so many play groups organized historical refights of the Siege of Praag through the decades?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477367.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477367.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Olthannon wrote:
I would much rather they do new special characters than old ones, which based upon the named pretenders to the Imperial Throne, is what GW are going for.


They probably aim for something like 80-90% new characters with a handful of plausible old ones thrown in for nostalgia value or because it makes no sense that they would not be active. Some of them are also so old and forgotten that they're functionally new - Dieter Helsnicht for example has had his last official model in 4th edition and his last rules in 5th iirc.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477368.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477368.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Tsagualsa wrote:
Dieter Helsnicht for example has had his last official model in 4th edition and his last rules in 5th iirc.


Dieter had story in End Times: Nagash. They actually included a lot of "forgotten" characters in the storyline. I would love to see new rules for him, though.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477387.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477387.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477394.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477394.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Overread wrote:
It was a big reason End Times got so much publicity - so much returning nostalgia and characters (even if many of them wound up dead)


Agreed. At least we got to see Midnight, in a setting that had been 5 minutes to midnight for 20 years.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477400.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477400.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Scottywan82 wrote:


Right, but at that point, Teclis was still recruiting hedge wizards to help. The colleges aren't formed until afterwards when Magnus concedes how helpful the wizards were in defeating Asavar Kul. I imagine the difference will be negligible, but it's neat as a concept. Gives someone more freedom to convert interesting human wizards that don't fit any of the college molds.


According to the recent Winds of Magic book for WFRP 4, Middenheim had openly supported and used mages for centuries before the colleges were created, to the extent that they had Guilds supported by the ruling bodies. The rest of the Empire were still not keen on magic and hunted down by Witch hunters. Assuming the WFRP books are being approved by the same team that is now linked to TOW, it might be a nice addition to Middenheim armies]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477403.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477403.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 endtransmission wrote:
 Scottywan82 wrote:


Right, but at that point, Teclis was still recruiting hedge wizards to help. The colleges aren't formed until afterwards when Magnus concedes how helpful the wizards were in defeating Asavar Kul. I imagine the difference will be negligible, but it's neat as a concept. Gives someone more freedom to convert interesting human wizards that don't fit any of the college molds.


According to the recent Winds of Magic book for WFRP 4, Middenheim had openly supported and used mages for centuries before the colleges were created, to the extent that they had Guilds supported by the ruling bodies. The rest of the Empire were still not keen on magic and hunted down by Witch hunters. Assuming the WFRP books are being approved by the same team that is now linked to TOW, it might be a nice addition to Middenheim armies


The Wizards and Alchemists Guild has been part of the setting since WFRP1 its cool that its still there - there were def links with stuff in the AOS rpg books to the ongoing story with the Broken Realms so it seems likely.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477409.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477409.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If the game is all you care about, why even weigh in in the setting? The game means nothing to me (and others) without a compelling setting, a reason to care. Like the rules, hate the rules, they are their own thing and appeal to a different group of gamers.


MaxT wrote:
It’s a weird hill to die on, there’s a wealth of stories, characters, campaigns that can be told within the Old World setting regardless of if in multiple generations of its timelines future it changed into something else. It’s your opinion and that’s cool, but it’s certainly a massive minority one.


It doesn’t appear to be a “massive minority” here, or anywhere else The End Times comes up. Of course, we don’t know how many more people who feel this way have already left and aren’t even sticking around to post about it.


If your point was simply "The End Times sucked balls" then we're in violent agreement. But your point seems to be "The End Times sucked, therefore every form of Warhammer story/game/period set before or since also now always sucks forever more". Which is simply not the case.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477433.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477433.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477447.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477447.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 triplegrim wrote:
*pictures of WFB battalions*


Why you gotta hurt us like this, look at all that value for money.

As someone who was only playing in 8th I'm dead keen for TOW. These blog posts are very obviously "eh lets string along the hype train as slowly and gradually as possible".

I hope they do something really interesting with the setting, even if it means retconning. They should be able to show that with clever narrative you CAN have factions interacting in a way that fits the world and setting, without needing to flush the world down the toilet because of "waah it's too hard to make a narrative where the lizardmen fight the ogres, need new setting"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477449.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477449.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
MaxT wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If the game is all you care about, why even weigh in in the setting? The game means nothing to me (and others) without a compelling setting, a reason to care. Like the rules, hate the rules, they are their own thing and appeal to a different group of gamers.


MaxT wrote:
It’s a weird hill to die on, there’s a wealth of stories, characters, campaigns that can be told within the Old World setting regardless of if in multiple generations of its timelines future it changed into something else. It’s your opinion and that’s cool, but it’s certainly a massive minority one.


It doesn’t appear to be a “massive minority” here, or anywhere else The End Times comes up. Of course, we don’t know how many more people who feel this way have already left and aren’t even sticking around to post about it.


If your point was simply "The End Times sucked balls" then we're in violent agreement. But your point seems to be "The End Times sucked, therefore every form of Warhammer story/game/period set before or since also now always sucks forever more". Which is simply not the case.


No, my point is that it IS the case—for me, and apparently plenty of other former WHFB fans. Having a terrible ending to the setting makes it unenjoyable to revisit any pert of the story. I also won’t ever go back and watch nBSG because of the bad ending. It is common in fandoms, such as video game fandoms, for a setting-ruining finale to affect enjoyment of any earlier part of the franchise.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477464.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477464.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

No, my point is that it IS the case—for me, and apparently plenty of other former WHFB fans. Having a terrible ending to the setting makes it unenjoyable to revisit any pert of the story. I also won’t ever go back and watch nBSG because of the bad ending. It is common in fandoms, such as video game fandoms, for a setting-ruining finale to affect enjoyment of any earlier part of the franchise.

Which is fair. I suspect that a lot of the disconnect there will come from whether or not people agree that the End Times was a setting-ruining finale, or simply a progression of the setting. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477468.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477468.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Something like Warhammer Old World is not a single story but a setting, a world. Within it are many stories which can stand on their own merits all on their own. Yes the world ends in the end; but honestly you can say the same for any setting you love. Almost any world or setting will end or change significantly if written out far enough. Heck technically Middle Earth and Lord of the Rings, being a mythology for the Norse, "ends" with modern day reality.

Yes the very end of the world is there and GW did give it a very end of the world event; but there are so many stories and epic sagas and events and characters, peoples, races, nations and more that are born, grow, develop, flourish and die all within that huge span of time until the end.
The vast majority of existing lore and books about Old World don't connect to the end times; they are just stories about characters, peoples, races and all. Old World coming back is just a focus on one era of the setting. Just like the End Times are one era.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477471.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477471.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
It is common in fandoms, such as video game fandoms, for a setting-ruining finale to affect enjoyment of any earlier part of the franchise.


I just finished the (so far published) ASOIAF novels and I certainly feel like I could go back and enjoy the TV show for a second time as far as they followed the written material.

I understand the "hump" of disappointment where they took the setting but the setting has so much history and depth I find it odd people will be turned off WFB forever. And if they are, why are they here discussing it still? We're lucky to be getting TOW at all, and if there's new models or updated ancient kits then even the disgruntled will have something new for playing 6th edition or whatever they like.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477489.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477489.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Olthannon wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:

If they use percentages to establish comp then I am out immediately. One of the many things that 8th Edition did that sealed me off of keeping up with Games Workshop games completely was percentages along with some of the other piss poor game design choices. If this is essentially eight but without monstrous cavalry, then I'm out.


Also, the last thread we had was locked because of the whole bunch of people nitpicking a bunch of minutiae from outside sources drowning the news thread with complete pendantry. Why are we starting this over again, people?


They've said a mix of rules plus some new ones, I get the feeling that 6th edition is the basis, which is excellent.



If it's based on 6th I will be all in...

nathan2004 wrote:I don’t get it, we enjoy Horus heresy (or I do) knowing the ending to that story. Are Luna wolf/sons of Horus players bitter at their genefather getting killed?


Don't use "we" when it obviously doesn't apply. I knew people who refused to play any special characters who were dead in the lore.

Rihgu wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
 triplegrim wrote:
Have to say I am relieved to see greatswords, as I have 3×25 of them painted up.

I also do like the fairly moderate fantasy elements. No hordes of pegasi or demigryps, but real hard men.

Do you guys think comp will be lords, heroes, troops, special and rare? And with % or with a number or picks, lik 0-4 special for a 2500 army?



If they use percentages to establish comp then I am out immediately. One of the many things that 8th Edition did that sealed me off of keeping up with Games Workshop games completely was percentages along with some of the other piss poor game design choices. If this is essentially eight but without monstrous cavalry, then I'm out.


Also, the last thread we had was locked because of the whole bunch of people nitpicking a bunch of minutiae from outside sources drowning the news thread with complete pendantry. Why are we starting this over again, people?


Isn't 6th the only edition that didn't use percentages? Off the top of my head, 3rd, 5th and 8th all did. Not sure about 7th.


7th used slots as well, not percentages.

Dysartes wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
f they use percentages to establish comp then I am out immediately. One of the many things that 8th Edition did that sealed me off of keeping up with Games Workshop games completely was percentages along with some of the other piss poor game design choices. If this is essentially eight but without monstrous cavalry, then I'm out.

...what've you got against percentages, Tony?

Especially when I'm pretty sure you only need to be able to work out 50% and 25% of your total points budget to get the brackets - would it be less painful if they gave you a table with the breakdown for different sizes of game, but the % as a reference point if you were playing a value outside the defined ones?


Kodos is going to cover it...

kodos wrote:
ccs wrote:
I just want a decent rank & file fantasy game.

oh well, then this is the worst possible place to look at (and without the story, there is not much left be excited about)

if you want a decent R&F game from GW, War of the Ring or Warmaster are your best option

the only reason I even care a litte about that game at all is the story line
the chance is very low that I play it even if the story is good as I don't expect much from the rules (and GW will find a way to mess it up anyway), but if the story is bad too, I am not even going to buy the books

 Dysartes wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
f they use percentages to establish comp then I am out immediately. One of the many things that 8th Edition did that sealed me off of keeping up with Games Workshop games completely was percentages along with some of the other piss poor game design choices. If this is essentially eight but without monstrous cavalry, then I'm out.

...what've you got against percentages, Tony?

Especially when I'm pretty sure you only need to be able to work out 50% and 25% of your total points budget to get the brackets - would it be less painful if they gave you a table with the breakdown for different sizes of game, but the % as a reference point if you were playing a value outside the defined ones?

the main problem in the past with % was the difference between Hero Hammer and an R&F game
if it is again all about Heroes and with the units being just there to increase the HP pool, there is not much point in making an R&F game


Warmaster? Yeah, play the game that did so well GW pulled store support and threw it into Fanatic hospice after 6 months.

Please tell me you're joking...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477502.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477502.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

No, my point is that it IS the case—for me, and apparently plenty of other former WHFB fans. Having a terrible ending to the setting makes it unenjoyable to revisit any pert of the story. I also won’t ever go back and watch nBSG because of the bad ending. It is common in fandoms, such as video game fandoms, for a setting-ruining finale to affect enjoyment of any earlier part of the franchise.


And the citizens of the Empire as depicted in WH:TOW don't care because they're all long-since dead by the time The End Times takes place. That's not to sound flippant. But everything fails eventually. Should a player refuse to play in an historically based campaign about Imperial Romans versus barbarian invaders because the empire eventually collapsed? I'm not seeing it. I played Tomb Kings in WHFB. It was already a given that they were going to fail in their long-term goals. Didn't mean that I wouldn't play them.

The game setting itself made it impossible that the mortal races could permanently defeat Chaos. The most that any of the mortals in the setting could hope for was to make sure that there was still a world for those who came a century later. In that respect, those living in the period covered by WH:TOW succeeded.

On a less serious note, I'll point out that this is what Chaos players were working toward for the last few decades.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477534.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477534.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Eumerin wrote:
Should a player refuse to play in an historically based campaign about Imperial Romans versus barbarian invaders because the empire eventually collapsed? I'm not seeing it.


I think what you're not seeing is that different things appeal to different people for different reasons. Different things can even appeal to the same person for different reasons!

The open ended nature of WHFB is one of the things that was specifically appealing versus other settings (including historical settings). The "frozen in time" aspect is something that was genuinely appealing to many people. Personally, I never really saw the desire to advance the settings when it is that, a setting... I understand why some people wanted that advancement but for me, I liked the fact it was a static setting where anything could happen next.

Was it the ONLY thing that was appealing about WHFB? Of course not. Was it something that everyone found appealing? Of course not. But there are many fans who are going to be turned off by the end times... IMO GW should just let players pretend the end times didn't happen if that's what players want to do. If they wanted to reassure AoS players that TOW isn't going to replace AoS, they just had to say that, rather than picking at the scars of WHFB players.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477544.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477544.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Eumerin wrote:
Should a player refuse to play in an historically based campaign about Imperial Romans versus barbarian invaders because the empire eventually collapsed? I'm not seeing it.


I think what you're not seeing is that different things appeal to different people for different reasons. Different things can even appeal to the same person for different reasons!

The open ended nature of WHFB is one of the things that was specifically appealing versus other settings (including historical settings). The "frozen in time" aspect is something that was genuinely appealing to many people. Personally, I never really saw the desire to advance the settings when it is that, a setting... I understand why some people wanted that advancement but for me, I liked the fact it was a static setting where anything could happen next.

Was it the ONLY thing that was appealing about WHFB? Of course not. Was it something that everyone found appealing? Of course not. But there are many fans who are going to be turned off by the end times... IMO GW should just let players pretend the end times didn't happen if that's what players want to do. If they wanted to reassure AoS players that TOW isn't going to replace AoS, they just had to say that, rather than picking at the scars of WHFB players.




There is nothing stopping you ignoring the end times and then playing old world or any version of fantasy. I still enjoy Star Wars as in my head cannon all the awful Disney sequels are poorly written fanfiction. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477553.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477553.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. AoS. You'd get the AoS people whinging.

Believe me when I say I GW getting rid of WFB in the first place was the stupidest thing they have ever done and I have zero time for AoS and everything about it. But GW were still very clearly going to say that the End Times still happened. They will probably continue to do so because there's nothing that can be done about that. That's more to assuage the AoS people that they won't suddenly be sidelined and dropped. If Fantasy is a massive success, maybe AoS will get booted gently to the side.

This is a "reinvigoration" of WFB, set in a time period that allows them to create this timeless setting.

Warhammer is all about creating your own story so you can continue to do that.

Rather than picking at old scars, consider this as a balm for some old wounds. Fantasy is on the horizon, that is a good thing. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477558.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477558.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Overread wrote:
I think one difference is that something like nBattlestar Galactica is one story. Yes broken into seasons, but ultimately its one single story start to finish.
Something like Warhammer Old World is not a single story but a setting, a world.

and this is the problem, you can read GW's post as "this is a story were we have already seen the ending" and not as "this not just a story but a world with many stories"

maybe it is just because some people don't think GW is able to get it right, it is not like the latest story part of 40k turns out good, but there is the possibility that instead of building the world again and get us the many stories, they just make a End-Times Prequel (and instead of new stories start explaining why the End Times had to happen exactly as it did)

it is not about what happend with the End Times and that the story is already done
it is the fear that the new story is again about the same End Times and GW likes doing those things (as some of the HH stories also try to lay down events for 40k, so that you know that something bad in the year 40.000 happend because in the year 30.000 someone pressed the wrong button)

and the End times was a bad written story, the first book was ok and then it got worse.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477563.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477563.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Olthannon wrote:
Right but the thing is, it's not going to change. They aren't going to say it didn't happen because that would drop sales of AoS. You'd get the AoS people whinging.

Believe me when I say I GW getting rid of WFB in the first place was the stupidest thing they have ever done and I have zero time for AoS and everything about it. But GW were still very clearly going to say that the End Times still happened. They will probably continue to do so because there's nothing that can be done about that. That's more to assuage the AoS people that they won't suddenly be sidelined and dropped. If Fantasy is a massive success, maybe AoS will get booted gently to the side.

This is a "reinvigoration" of WFB, set in a time period that allows them to create this timeless setting.

Warhammer is all about creating your own story so you can continue to do that.

Rather than picking at old scars, consider this as a balm for some old wounds. Fantasy is on the horizon, that is a good thing.


My point is they don't have to say anything. Why start an article off on a bad note?

If you want people to think about how they can create their own stories in the WHFB universe, don't start your article with "Don't forget we killed this setting, and we aren't unkilling it, it's dead, if you pick up this game, you're officially playing in a dead setting. That army you're collecting? It's dead. Do you remember how we killed it? In case you forgot how we killed it, let me mention it and the thing we replaced it with once again to remind you".

Like, the article literally says...

"One of the most important aspects of Warhammer: the Old World is the setting itself. Obviously, this is the World-that-Was, a world of legend destroyed by the machinations of the Ruinous Powers of Chaos at the culmination of the End Times – an event that doomed the denizens of the Old World to oblivion and heralded the birth of the Mortal Realms and the Age of Sigmar.

It’s important to remember, though, that even though the setting is returning, these events still happened, and that the Old World was destroyed. The End Times had long been foreshadowed in the background of Warhammer Fantasy Battle. "

How many times in 4 sentences can they mention the world is dead and how they killed it, it's almost impressive, what a great way to engender positive vibes about the game

They even use the word "obviously", a word I was taught to avoid using in writing because to the people who were already thinking about it you don't need to tell them it was obvious and to the people who weren't thinking about it you're effectively talking down to them.

As for Fantasy being on the horizon being a good thing, meh, we'll see how it turns out. I have the utmost faith in GW's ability to screw it up and making it highly unappealing.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477564.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477564.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Olthannon wrote:
Right but the thing is, it's not going to change. They aren't going to say it didn't happen because that would drop sales of AoS. You'd get the AoS people whinging.

Believe me when I say I GW getting rid of WFB in the first place was the stupidest thing they have ever done and I have zero time for AoS and everything about it. But GW were still very clearly going to say that the End Times still happened. They will probably continue to do so because there's nothing that can be done about that. That's more to assuage the AoS people that they won't suddenly be sidelined and dropped. If Fantasy is a massive success, maybe AoS will get booted gently to the side.

This is a "reinvigoration" of WFB, set in a time period that allows them to create this timeless setting.

Warhammer is all about creating your own story so you can continue to do that.

Rather than picking at old scars, consider this as a balm for some old wounds. Fantasy is on the horizon, that is a good thing.


My point is they don't have to say anything. Why start an article off on a bad note?

If you want people to think about how they can create their own stories in the WHFB universe, don't start your article with "Don't forget we killed this setting, and we aren't unkilling it, it's dead, if you pick up this game, you're officially playing in a dead setting. That army you're collecting? It's dead. Do you remember how we killed it? In case you forgot how we killed it, let me mention it and the thing we replaced it with once again to remind you".

Like, the article literally says...

"One of the most important aspects of Warhammer: the Old World is the setting itself. Obviously, this is the World-that-Was, a world of legend destroyed by the machinations of the Ruinous Powers of Chaos at the culmination of the End Times – an event that doomed the denizens of the Old World to oblivion and heralded the birth of the Mortal Realms and the Age of Sigmar.

It’s important to remember, though, that even though the setting is returning, these events still happened, and that the Old World was destroyed. The End Times had long been foreshadowed in the background of Warhammer Fantasy Battle. "

How many times in 4 sentences can they mention the world is dead and how they killed it, it's almost impressive, what a great way to engender positive vibes about the game

They even use the word "obviously", a word I was taught to avoid using in writing because to the people who were already thinking about it you don't need to tell them it was obvious and to the people who weren't thinking about it you're effectively talking down to them.

As for Fantasy being on the horizon being a good thing, meh, we'll see how it turns out. I have the utmost faith in GW's ability to screw it up and making it highly unappealing.




At a guess I think GW wants to make it very clear that they will continue to support AoS. I can just imagine the drama if GW did not appear to be planning on continuing to support their Fantasy Space Marines (which I acknowledge with a sense of irony evolved from sci-fi Knights).

Would I be far off base in thinking GW just intends to make a 28mm square based analog tabletop version of their proven successful Total War Warhammer setting? How does Cathay and Kislev fit in all this?

I wonder just how Grimdark it will all be, ie will they lean more into the darker elements of later editions… such as the Wood Elf driven “great lie” of Bretonnian faith…

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477566.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477566.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
AllSeeingSkink wrote:

How many times in 4 sentences can they mention the world is dead and how they killed it, it's almost impressive, what a great way to engender positive vibes about the game

They even use the word "obviously", a word I was taught to avoid using in writing because to the people who were already thinking about it you don't need to tell them it was obvious and to the people who weren't thinking about it you're effectively talking down to them.

As for Fantasy being on the horizon being a good thing, meh, we'll see how it turns out. I have the utmost faith in GW's ability to screw it up and making it highly unappealing.




Reading between the lines, I took it as a management of audience expectations. This isn't the first article they have done but the news is slow. There's a lot of feedback that gets built up and sifted through. They didn't expressly say so much about this in earlier articles from what I remember, so clearly they must have needed to do that based on audience/ stakeholder reaction. A lot of WFB fans will be expecting End Times to have never happened and that all will be well again. So I think yes they deliberately went overboard just to make sure people reduced their expectation of that. As stated, it's also for AoS purposes. Consider this from a GW point of view, if they say End Times didn't happen then it confirms that this entire thing was a gigantic blunder. And it was. We all know that, it was a flamingo up. But they can't say that, despite that being on their minds constantly. There was not many people at GW who were happy with what happened either.

As for their need to use obviously. I would only say you need to look at the previous TOW thread to see that in fact, people do need reminding of the obvious.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477567.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477567.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 kodos wrote:
ccs wrote:
I just want a decent rank & file fantasy game.

oh well, then this is the worst possible place to look at (and without the story, there is not much left be excited about)

if you want a decent R&F game from GW, War of the Ring or Warmaster are your best option


On Old World being the worst choice without GWs story..... I disagree.
I've quite enjoyed several editions of WHFB without caring one iota about the story.
I've long enjoyed playing 40k & now AoS that way as well.
So I'm sure I'll have no issues not caring about the story in OW.

Concerning Warmaster & the ME game:
I won't disagree on thier quality.
I've got Dwarves for ME & Kislev for WM.
What I'm lacking currently is ANY interest in these games from others. Either within my own circle or reasonably local.
So they're both on the list of things I tend to play at gaming conventions.




]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477587.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477587.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Just Tony wrote:

Warmaster? Yeah, play the game that did so well GW pulled store support and threw it into Fanatic hospice after 6 months.

Please tell me you're joking...


That's not fair to the system. It is a good game that got canned by the sales team well before it even made it to release thanks to the poor sales of the last edition of Epic. There was an article on goonhammer yesterday digging into the history of Gorkamorka with some of the ex GW people and Warmaster was included in some of the detail See the article. It was supposed to come out with plastic armies and everything]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477600.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477600.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Paymaster Games wrote:
 Shuma-Gorath wrote:
Special Character wise, who apart from gods, undead and daemons are actually around during this setting?

Ikit Claw, Aekold Helbrass (other warriors of chaos?) maybe some elves and/or dwarves?


Ok this who i know was alive or active during the 3 Emperors Period

If i missed any i am sorry


It looks to be a bit more specific than just the general 'Three Emperors' period (which was a bloody long time); based on what they've indicated (and who's King of Bretonnia), we're probably somewhere around IC 2200-2250. Maybe a little later. Depends if they stick to the idea that Bretonnian Kings have extended lifespans or whatever that was by the end. Or there was just an exceptionally long reign. Anyway:

Empire - Magnus the Pious - might be around but we don't know exactly how close to The Great War they're going. Could not have been born yet.
GreenSkins - Gorbad Ironclaw - has been 'missing' for about 400-500 years by the time ToW is slated to take place. Last seen alone and surrounded by an army of dwarfs.
Vampire Counts - Vlad and Isabella Von Castein, Konrad Von Carstein, Mannfred Von Carstein - all have been 'killed' by this point. The Vampire Wars are approx 50 years behind this point.
Bretonnian - Repanse de Lyonesse - been dead for about 200 years.
Dogs of War/ Tilea - Leonardo da Miragliano - also probably dead about 150-200 years. Asarnil is alive and kicking, albeit he's probably still in Ulthuan. The rest likely won't have been close to being born.
Dwarfs - Indeed likely that most of them will have been alive at least.
Wood elves, High Elves, and Dark Elves - Potentially any of them really. Obviously Malekith, Morathi, Orion, Ariel etc. We know the Twins are around and about to do significant stuff. Alarielle is around, as are Belannaer and Korhil.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477603.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477603.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
JimmyWolf87 wrote:
 Paymaster Games wrote:
 Shuma-Gorath wrote:
Special Character wise, who apart from gods, undead and daemons are actually around during this setting?

Ikit Claw, Aekold Helbrass (other warriors of chaos?) maybe some elves and/or dwarves?


Ok this who i know was alive or active during the 3 Emperors Period

If i missed any i am sorry


It looks to be a bit more specific than just the general 'Three Emperors' period (which was a bloody long time); based on what they've indicated (and who's King of Bretonnia), we're probably somewhere around IC 2200-2250. Maybe a little later. Depends if they stick to the idea that Bretonnian Kings have extended lifespans or whatever that was by the end. Or there was just an exceptionally long reign. Anyway:

Empire - Magnus the Pious - might be around but we don't know exactly how close to The Great War they're going. Could not have been born yet.
GreenSkins - Gorbad Ironclaw - has been 'missing' for about 400-500 years by the time ToW is slated to take place. Last seen alone and surrounded by an army of dwarfs.
Vampire Counts - Vlad and Isabella Von Castein, Konrad Von Carstein, Mannfred Von Carstein - all have been 'killed' by this point. The Vampire Wars are approx 50 years behind this point.
Bretonnian - Repanse de Lyonesse - been dead for about 200 years.
Dogs of War/ Tilea - Leonardo da Miragliano - also probably dead about 150-200 years. Asarnil is alive and kicking, albeit he's probably still in Ulthuan. The rest likely won't have been close to being born.
Dwarfs - Indeed likely that most of them will have been alive at least.
Wood elves, High Elves, and Dark Elves - Potentially any of them really. Obviously Malekith, Morathi, Orion, Ariel etc. We know the Twins are around and about to do significant stuff. Alarielle is around, as are Belannaer and Korhil.


In the article they mentioned the setting being 'a couple of decades before the GWaC', so i'd say around 2250-2280, but 2200 at the earliest is also not out of the question.

This led us to events well known to fans of the Old World, the Great War Against Chaos and the Siege of Praag, two centuries before the End Times. More precisely, we decided to look into the decades prior to this legendary world-changing event.


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/01/11/old-world-development-diary-explore-the-war-torn-lands-of-the-world-that-was/

I think they're aiming for a general feeling of 'World War II is on the horizon' because british.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477606.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477606.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Tsagualsa wrote:
JimmyWolf87 wrote:
 Paymaster Games wrote:
 Shuma-Gorath wrote:
Special Character wise, who apart from gods, undead and daemons are actually around during this setting?

Ikit Claw, Aekold Helbrass (other warriors of chaos?) maybe some elves and/or dwarves?


Ok this who i know was alive or active during the 3 Emperors Period

If i missed any i am sorry


Spoiler:
It looks to be a bit more specific than just the general 'Three Emperors' period (which was a bloody long time); based on what they've indicated (and who's King of Bretonnia), we're probably somewhere around IC 2200-2250. Maybe a little later. Depends if they stick to the idea that Bretonnian Kings have extended lifespans or whatever that was by the end. Or there was just an exceptionally long reign. Anyway:

Empire - Magnus the Pious - might be around but we don't know exactly how close to The Great War they're going. Could not have been born yet.
GreenSkins - Gorbad Ironclaw - has been 'missing' for about 400-500 years by the time ToW is slated to take place. Last seen alone and surrounded by an army of dwarfs.
Vampire Counts - Vlad and Isabella Von Castein, Konrad Von Carstein, Mannfred Von Carstein - all have been 'killed' by this point. The Vampire Wars are approx 50 years behind this point.
Bretonnian - Repanse de Lyonesse - been dead for about 200 years.
Dogs of War/ Tilea - Leonardo da Miragliano - also probably dead about 150-200 years. Asarnil is alive and kicking, albeit he's probably still in Ulthuan. The rest likely won't have been close to being born.
Dwarfs - Indeed likely that most of them will have been alive at least.
Wood elves, High Elves, and Dark Elves - Potentially any of them really. Obviously Malekith, Morathi, Orion, Ariel etc. We know the Twins are around and about to do significant stuff. Alarielle is around, as are Belannaer and Korhil.



In the article they mentioned the setting being 'a couple of decades before the GWaC', so i'd say around 2250-2280, but 2200 at the earliest is also not out of the question.

This led us to events well known to fans of the Old World, the Great War Against Chaos and the Siege of Praag, two centuries before the End Times. More precisely, we decided to look into the decades prior to this legendary world-changing event.


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/01/11/old-world-development-diary-explore-the-war-torn-lands-of-the-world-that-was/


Yeah, it's not entirely clear on a specific timestamp; the indication was that Louen Orc-Slayer was King; who declared an Errantry War in 2201 according to the 5th Ed book so we could be seeing the latter years of his, presumably rather extensive, reign.

I think they're aiming for a general feeling of 'World War II is on the horizon' because british.


Because British? Not sure quite what you mean by that. Like, a general 'big war is looming', sure. It's hardly a unique sentiment to one major conflict. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477612.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477612.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 His Master's Voice wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
For a wargame setting, though, the point is just to give you some background to make the battle seem more interesting.


Warhammer in all of its incarnations has long since bulldozed past being just some broad context for pushing toy soldiers around the table.

In storytelling, endings matter.


The ending is status quo until GW goes bust.

And if you want in game ending then ending is everybody's dead. No life whatsoever left anywhere. Better?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477616.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477616.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
All this does is give GW scope to make new characters. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477617.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477617.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Tyel wrote:
Kind of feel people are going to get that "nothing is really happening" setting. Because where can they go? Yes we can explore the characters of the mortal generation before the Great War - but you can't obviously have "The Great War decades before the actual Great War that everyone forgot about."

All this does is give GW scope to make new characters.


Old world had thousands of years of history. They can't detail everything completely before everybody in this forum is dead from old age anyway without even inventing post-end time alternative history.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477619.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477619.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
I'm not married to WFB as I never played more than one edition, but if it means interesting stories and setups them I'm happy to see retcons and "oh yeah this stuff happened 400 years ago we just never mentioned it before"

Also can some of you fine fellows please learn to trim your damn quotes, no one needs to see 4 nested quotes if you're only responding to the last paragraph ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477623.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477623.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Tyel wrote:
Kind of feel people are going to get that "nothing is really happening" setting. Because where can they go? Yes we can explore the characters of the mortal generation before the Great War - but you can't obviously have "The Great War decades before the actual Great War that everyone forgot about."

All this does is give GW scope to make new characters.


If it keeps the setting alive as a backdrop for WHFRP, Black Library books, for the possibility of a remake of Mordheim, another release of Warhammer Quest in the old World or even a new boxed game set in TOW, as a backdrop for video games and other media that's gonna be more than enough for a lot of people. Having a supported mainline game with regular apperances and support on the community pages and in WD is a very good thing for aspects of the hobby that go much farther than the Fantasy Battles game.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477624.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477624.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Just Tony wrote:



Warmaster? Yeah, play the game that did so well GW pulled store support and threw it into Fanatic hospice after 6 months.

Please tell me you're joking...


Stop lying about this. We all know this isn't true, I've thrown enough fact about this your way to prove it at this point.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grumpy Gnome wrote:

Would I be far off base in thinking GW just intends to make a 28mm square based analog tabletop version of their proven successful Total War Warhammer setting? How does Cathay and Kislev fit in all this?




IIRC they said somewhere that at the moment there are no plans to bring Cathay (and I believe maybe also Kislev) to the tabletop game, or something to that effect. I'm sure someone will come back with a direct quote that clarifies that thats not exactly what/how they said it and theres room for more interpretation there, but I recall it being something along those lines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Olthannon wrote:


As stated, it's also for AoS purposes. Consider this from a GW point of view, if they say End Times didn't happen then it confirms that this entire thing was a gigantic blunder. And it was. We all know that, it was a flamingo up.



Yeah, no. While the rollout of AoS left much to be desired, the fairly large jump in GWs revenue and profit following the death of WHFB and the launch of Age of Sigmar tells us that WHFBs death was actually a pretty smart business move that resulted in financial success that WHFB never delivered them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477654.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477654.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
chaos0xomega wrote:


IIRC they said somewhere that at the moment there are no plans to bring Cathay (and I believe maybe also Kislev) to the tabletop game, or something to that effect. I'm sure someone will come back with a direct quote that clarifies that thats not exactly what/how they said it and theres room for more interpretation there, but I recall it being something along those lines.



I think they've pretty explicitly said the opposite; Cathay as a setting (and a more detailed Kislev lore) have been developed by Andy Hoare and The Old World team, initially for the CA devs to create the Total War versions (albeit with different characters in the case of Kislev) but with a view to bringing them into the tabletop. How soon after launch that happens is anyone's guess but it's definitely in the works based on what they've said thus far.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/18/grand-cathay-is-mapped-for-the-first-time-in-warhammer-the-old-world/]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477662.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477662.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
chaos0xomega wrote:
Yeah, no. While the rollout of AoS left much to be desired, the fairly large jump in GWs revenue and profit following the death of WHFB and the launch of Age of Sigmar tells us that WHFBs death was actually a pretty smart business move that resulted in financial success that WHFB never delivered them.


GW's revenue was flat (slightly down) for the financial year after they killed WHFB and released AoS, AoS having been released near the start of the financial year, and revenue started to rise 1 year before the 2nd edition of AoS. So it wasn't exactly a raging success of a launch, you generally don't want to be flat on revenue in the year you release your new main product line. I'd say GW's revenue started rising when they started diversifying more, around when the revenue started rising was also when BB, Necromunda, Warhammer Quest and Underworlds first came out, and yes also them investing into new AoS releases also which they hadn't been doing for WHFB.

WHFB definitely wasn't pulling in much revenue towards the end, the last edition was divisive and GW basically were barely supporting for several years before they killed it.

I remain unconvinced that they couldn't have made WHFB into a money maker again versus killing it.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477665.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477665.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
chaos0xomega wrote:
Yeah, no. While the rollout of AoS left much to be desired, the fairly large jump in GWs revenue and profit following the death of WHFB and the launch of Age of Sigmar tells us that WHFBs death was actually a pretty smart business move that resulted in financial success that WHFB never delivered them.

8th felt like it was set up to fail, from a design perspective, a release perspective, and a commercial perspective. Designing a game that's going to result in multiple big blocks of infantry being the best way to play combined with hiking the cost and/or reducing the contents of infantry kits, and not releasing many of the things that were probably needed (or botching them) all conspire to result in a game that GW had put in a position where it was hard to get new people into and where there wasn't much new for existing players to buy.

Of course it wasn't a major revenue driver during that edition after the initial edition launch - which normally sees a sales spike - and until the start of The End Times (where people actually had new stuff to buy).

If you don't give a game the conditions it requires to thrive, don't be surprised when it doesn't.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477668.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477668.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477669.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477669.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
chaos0xomega wrote:
 Olthannon wrote:


As stated, it's also for AoS purposes. Consider this from a GW point of view, if they say End Times didn't happen then it confirms that this entire thing was a gigantic blunder. And it was. We all know that, it was a flamingo up.



Yeah, no. While the rollout of AoS left much to be desired, the fairly large jump in GWs revenue and profit following the death of WHFB and the launch of Age of Sigmar tells us that WHFBs death was actually a pretty smart business move that resulted in financial success that WHFB never delivered them.


That fairly large jump didn't happen.

Revenue for 2014-2015 (cut off date is a month before the release of AoS) was slightly down and the 16.5 million profit higher only because the previous year saw an exceptional 4.5 million spend (without tracking that down, at a guess that was the new website that cost around that number).

Revenue in 2015-2016 (almost exclusively the duration of AoS's life, with the last month or so of that period with the promise of a quick release of the General's Handbook to fix AoS) revenue was ever so slightly lower again and profit a tiny bit up at 16.9 million. That year was propped up by an additional 4.5 million in royalties (Total Warhammer), without which post-AoS-launch numbers would have been down from the previous year.

2016-2017 was the first year to see massive increase in revenue and profit, this being the the post- General's Handbook period, as well as Gathering Storm and 8th ed marketing kicking in in the second half of that period.

Source: Publicly available investor reports on GW's website.

I'm not going to chase down exact dates but at some point GW also embraced modern marketing and start collecting sets showed up to an all around positive effect. One which was not apparent in the direct wake of the AoS launch, which means it either didn't happen or catch on that early, or its positive effects did not outweigh the negative impact AoS (and 40k 7th ed) had on GW's financials. Either way, the claim that AoS sold inherently better than Warhammer Fantasy is unsubstantiated. AoS became successful after GW invested in it in a way they never did for Fantasy.

The launch of AoS resulted in the replacement of the company's CEO and the production of a book to fix a game at what had at the time been unprecedented speed for GW. Those are not the result of sudden financial success or a smart business move.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
Love how the whole point of this new thread was for it to not be a discussion thread and that lasted until literally the first new post on WarCom.


The issue with discussing the newest article is that it's the same as previous articles: nothing of substance with a side order of some pretty artwork. Until GW changes what information they release the discussion of their tranquilized sloth of a hype article isn't going to go much different than any other time.

As a reminder, we are now over three years after the announcement of The Old World and you needn't look further than the first post to see what we (and GW) have to show for it. Three years is a long time to discuss anything to death, especially when you consider the eagerness with which people want to engage with the project.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477671.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477671.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
tneva82 wrote:
Old world had thousands of years of history. They can't detail everything completely before everybody in this forum is dead from old age anyway without even inventing post-end time alternative history.


This is an interesting idea.
So if they release the edition and its explicitly 30 years before the Great War with Chaos, do you think they'll then flit around to say the War of the Beard, that time when the Skaven almost conquered the Empire, the Vampire Wars a generation or two earlier and so on? I guess nothing stops them, Fantasy tried to be a bit temporally agnostic, but I suspect they won't.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477693.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477693.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
For example, a Ravening Hordes style book that provides get-you-by rules for everyone.
First stop is the Empire civil war which also has the core rules. Second stop is Asavar Kul and the Siege of Praag, giving us Warriors, Dwarfs and Kislev. Then it's over to Finuval Plains which includes High Elves, Dark Elves and Daemons. So on until you have captured every faction in an exemplary campaign, roughly in the right era (Say 2000-onwards).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477697.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477697.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Tyel wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Old world had thousands of years of history. They can't detail everything completely before everybody in this forum is dead from old age anyway without even inventing post-end time alternative history.


This is an interesting idea.
So if they release the edition and its explicitly 30 years before the Great War with Chaos, do you think they'll then flit around to say the War of the Beard, that time when the Skaven almost conquered the Empire, the Vampire Wars a generation or two earlier and so on? I guess nothing stops them, Fantasy tried to be a bit temporally agnostic, but I suspect they won't.


Warhammer Fantasy 'historical' always suffered from the fact that most historic conflicts only really involved two out of the ~ dozen factions that existed. Sure, you can do a Ulthuan Civil War book, but what do you do if you have e.g. Wood Elves or Skaven and did canonically not exist during that time period? At beast you can play irrelevant window-dressing to the major players in such a conflict, e.g. Chaos raiders that use the confusion of war to further their own goals. The Great War at least involves all factions in a scope that makes them relevant enough for their armies to be present.

That being said, back in the day they had awesome campaign sets that included some cardboard stuff, a couple of historic scenarios for two or three armies, and were accompanied by a handful of miniatures for each side. Perhaps that's a way to do stuff like this, splash releases centered around an impressive character on both sides and a couple of troops, you could do them at a frequency that's about as fast as kill-team releases. A product somewhere between campaign set and regiment of renown.

Forgeworld also wanted to do 'historic' splash books for WHFB in the same vein as their 'historical' Imperial Armour books for 40k before they became Horus Heresy Inc., but Tamurkhan: Throne of Chaos was more like an alternate timeline and ended up as a dud, while their awesome concept work for a planned Battle for Blackfire Pass book never got off the ground and just vanished without producing much in terms of models.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477700.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477700.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
1: Are Chaos dwarfs confirmed yet?
2: Which quarter is the release? (4th I take it?)
3: Any info on white dwarf mag adding a section for oldworld or will there be a new mag for this?

Thanks in advance. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477701.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477701.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Leopold Helveine wrote:
A bit hard to read through this thread so maybe someone can answer these Q's for me:

1: Are Chaos dwarfs confirmed yet?
2: Which quarter is the release? (4th I take it?)
3: Any info on white dwarf mag adding a section for oldworld or will there be a new mag for this?

Thanks in advance.


1. Their icons are on the map, no confirmation beyond this point as of yet.
2. No release date has been given, it is unlikely to be released in 2023.
3. No info given so far.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477703.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477703.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Tsagualsa wrote:


Forgeworld also wanted to do 'historic' splash books for WHFB in the same vein as their 'historical' Imperial Armour books for 40k before they became Horus Heresy Inc., but Tamurkhan: Throne of Chaos was more like an alternate timeline and ended up as a dud,


Interestingly enough, Tamurkhan was intended as an alternate timeline series that would result in a version of the End Times and main GW said that it had to fit into the main timeline(most likely because they already had plans for the actual End Times). Also interesting that it would have been the second main timeline split(the first being the ending of WHFRP's Enemy Within Campaign).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477710.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477710.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Platuan4th wrote:
Tsagualsa wrote:


Forgeworld also wanted to do 'historic' splash books for WHFB in the same vein as their 'historical' Imperial Armour books for 40k before they became Horus Heresy Inc., but Tamurkhan: Throne of Chaos was more like an alternate timeline and ended up as a dud,


Interestingly enough, Tamurkhan was intended as an alternate timeline series that would result in a version of the End Times and main GW said that it had to fit into the main timeline(most likely because they already had plans for the actual End Times). Also interesting that it would have been the second main timeline split(the first being the ending of WHFRP's Enemy Within Campaign).


Ahem, the third and second respectively.

Blood Bowl's universe is the first ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477717.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477717.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
chaos0xomega wrote:


Yeah, no. While the rollout of AoS left much to be desired, the fairly large jump in GWs revenue and profit following the death of WHFB and the launch of Age of Sigmar tells us that WHFBs death was actually a pretty smart business move that resulted in financial success that WHFB never delivered them.


No, it doesn't mean that getting rid of WHFB was the smart choice at all. It means that a product that's easier/cheaper to get into and is actually supported properly was a smart business move. They could have just done that with WHFB rather than needing the AoS setting replacement. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477720.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477720.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. AoS to Old World evolution and comparison discussion ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477723.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477723.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477724.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477724.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Dysartes wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
Yeah, no. While the rollout of AoS left much to be desired, the fairly large jump in GWs revenue and profit following the death of WHFB and the launch of Age of Sigmar tells us that WHFBs death was actually a pretty smart business move that resulted in financial success that WHFB never delivered them.

8th felt like it was set up to fail, from a design perspective, a release perspective, and a commercial perspective. Designing a game that's going to result in multiple big blocks of infantry being the best way to play combined with hiking the cost and/or reducing the contents of infantry kits, and not releasing many of the things that were probably needed (or botching them) all conspire to result in a game that GW had put in a position where it was hard to get new people into and where there wasn't much new for existing players to buy.

Of course it wasn't a major revenue driver during that edition after the initial edition launch - which normally sees a sales spike - and until the start of The End Times (where people actually had new stuff to buy).

If you don't give a game the conditions it requires to thrive, don't be surprised when it doesn't.


GWs revenue/profit actually fell through the entirety of The End Times release cycle, so theres plenty of evidence to suggest that there was no salvaging WHFB. For proof (and to challenge Geifers attempts to argue the contrary), I direct you to here:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/807168.page#11448021

I've done the analysis on this (in greater depth than Geifer, evidently). The numbers don't fit the narrative being spun by some here.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477725.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477725.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. GW couldn’t save it at the time, that would require talent focused on that.

But for players here, I don’t think anyone was particular pleased at the time.

They needed to break the cycle they had stuck themselves in.
But I think the fact so many people want even a bit of that to come back is a neche that should be explored.
Not to mention all the video games now linked to it that’s good.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477741.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477741.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. GW's website trying to buy End Times: Thanquol.

But... then we had it. A tale of dead Dwarfs, dead Skaven and Lizardmen going into space. The rumours that "this was the end" which had circulated since Khaine (possibly earlier) suddenly looked a lot more plausible, and I think hype rapidly giving way to fear on the back of it. Which then gave way to oaths of undying hatred with AoS.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477743.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477743.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
chaos0xomega wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
Yeah, no. While the rollout of AoS left much to be desired, the fairly large jump in GWs revenue and profit following the death of WHFB and the launch of Age of Sigmar tells us that WHFBs death was actually a pretty smart business move that resulted in financial success that WHFB never delivered them.

8th felt like it was set up to fail, from a design perspective, a release perspective, and a commercial perspective. Designing a game that's going to result in multiple big blocks of infantry being the best way to play combined with hiking the cost and/or reducing the contents of infantry kits, and not releasing many of the things that were probably needed (or botching them) all conspire to result in a game that GW had put in a position where it was hard to get new people into and where there wasn't much new for existing players to buy.

Of course it wasn't a major revenue driver during that edition after the initial edition launch - which normally sees a sales spike - and until the start of The End Times (where people actually had new stuff to buy).

If you don't give a game the conditions it requires to thrive, don't be surprised when it doesn't.


GWs revenue/profit actually fell through the entirety of The End Times release cycle, so theres plenty of evidence to suggest that there was no salvaging WHFB. For proof (and to challenge Geifers attempts to argue the contrary), I direct you to here:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/807168.page#11448021

I've done the analysis on this (in greater depth than Geifer, evidently). The numbers don't fit the narrative being spun by some here.


You got the release date of the first General's Handbook wrong by a year.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477744.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477744.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Tsagualsa wrote:
Tyel wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Old world had thousands of years of history. They can't detail everything completely before everybody in this forum is dead from old age anyway without even inventing post-end time alternative history.


Forgeworld also wanted to do 'historic' splash books for WHFB in the same vein as their 'historical' Imperial Armour books for 40k before they became Horus Heresy Inc., but Tamurkhan: Throne of Chaos was more like an alternate timeline and ended up as a dud, while their awesome concept work for a planned Battle for Blackfire Pass book never got off the ground and just vanished without producing much in terms of models.


The rumour is that Blackfire Pass was pretty much complete but got canned due to the early death of Warhammer Forge, which was a minor scandal that lead to Rick Priestley leaving the company. Now we can see it's probably likely that it was killed because they'd made the decision to go the AOS route but at the time there was a lot of bemusement.

God the things that would come out if GW ever had a leak, like those that regularly affect the video gaming world.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477758.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477758.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Tyel wrote:
I can only say "I was there". End Times prompted massive hype. People dusted off armies they'd not used for years. End Times: Khaine sold out online in about 5 minutes. People crashed GW's website trying to buy End Times: Thanquol.

But... then we had it. A tale of dead Dwarfs, dead Skaven and Lizardmen going into space. The rumours that "this was the end" which had circulated since Khaine (possibly earlier) suddenly looked a lot more plausible, and I think hype rapidly giving way to fear on the back of it. Which then gave way to oaths of undying hatred with AoS.


The experiences of your local community are not necessarily indicative of the experiences of the broader marketplace. At my local store, I was one of two people to actually buy any of the books, the store ended up with almost 2 dozen copies of unsold End Times books in hardback and softcover lingering on the shelves (which I eventually helped them sell on eBay at an 80% loss). Likewise any number of other GW retailers in the area had large numbers of the books sitting on their dusty shelves, a few of them still do.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477769.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477769.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
chaos0xomega wrote:
Tyel wrote:
I can only say "I was there". End Times prompted massive hype. People dusted off armies they'd not used for years. End Times: Khaine sold out online in about 5 minutes. People crashed GW's website trying to buy End Times: Thanquol.

But... then we had it. A tale of dead Dwarfs, dead Skaven and Lizardmen going into space. The rumours that "this was the end" which had circulated since Khaine (possibly earlier) suddenly looked a lot more plausible, and I think hype rapidly giving way to fear on the back of it. Which then gave way to oaths of undying hatred with AoS.


The experiences of your local community are not necessarily indicative of the experiences of the broader marketplace. At my local store, I was one of two people to actually buy any of the books, the store ended up with almost 2 dozen copies of unsold End Times books in hardback and softcover lingering on the shelves (which I eventually helped them sell on eBay at an 80% loss). Likewise any number of other GW retailers in the area had large numbers of the books sitting on their dusty shelves, a few of them still do.


I'd imagine this – as most things related to this hobby – to have varied a lot depending on one's locale.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477775.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477775.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Overread wrote:
Ok I think we need to step back or we are going to lure ourselves into yet another AoS to Old World evolution and comparison discussion


...and this is why GW shouldn't have opened their article with multiple reminders about how they killed WHFB and how it's a dead setting, even 7 years later it's still clearly a sore spot for many WHFB fans.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
chaos0xomega wrote:
Tyel wrote:
I can only say "I was there". End Times prompted massive hype. People dusted off armies they'd not used for years. End Times: Khaine sold out online in about 5 minutes. People crashed GW's website trying to buy End Times: Thanquol.

But... then we had it. A tale of dead Dwarfs, dead Skaven and Lizardmen going into space. The rumours that "this was the end" which had circulated since Khaine (possibly earlier) suddenly looked a lot more plausible, and I think hype rapidly giving way to fear on the back of it. Which then gave way to oaths of undying hatred with AoS.


The experiences of your local community are not necessarily indicative of the experiences of the broader marketplace. At my local store, I was one of two people to actually buy any of the books, the store ended up with almost 2 dozen copies of unsold End Times books in hardback and softcover lingering on the shelves (which I eventually helped them sell on eBay at an 80% loss). Likewise any number of other GW retailers in the area had large numbers of the books sitting on their dusty shelves, a few of them still do.


The hype online is more what I'm thinking.

What happened at your local store is heavily dependent on what your store ordered, what the local community profile is like and how well the store judged their local community.

But it's hardly surprising that any copies of End Times books that didn't sell out immediately became steaming piles of turds on the shelves, WHFB fans were enjoying End Times right up until they figured out it was actually the end, after which many people preferred to flush it from their memories and pretend it never happened. Shifting End Times product AFTER the End Times was never going to be lucrative.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477876.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477876.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Time to take it t'other thread me thinks. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477906.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11477906.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11479656.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11479656.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 triplegrim wrote:
So, the latest releaae mentions Avasar Kull. Can he co exist with Louen the Orc Slayer? Different wikis say they lived a century apart?


Yeah, Louen Orcslayer started his reign in 2201 iirc and was noted to have personannly lead the cleansing of Bretonnia from Orks for the next century, and Asavar Kull can easily be centuries old due to chaos shenanigans, and did of course die in 2304 at the culmination of the Great War against Chaos. Kings of Bretonnia are usually also Grail Knights and have much extended lifespans due to the Grail's magic, so it checks out.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11479661.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11479661.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. GW did say that the Old World was going to take place during the time of three emperors. Since this period of time does not just cover the Great War with Chaos, but also the Vampire Wars, Gorbad Ironclaw's Waagh on the empire, The War of Sand and Blood in land of the dead, Norse raids on the high elves, the Second Skaven Civil War, and the other conflicts and campaign settings. This would make more sense then focusing on a single war that the whole of the Warhammer World was not a part of. GW could release the different conflicts/wars/campaigns as a source book with the major and minor players, the world/politics/intrigues of the time, different armies that were part of the war, the SC's and RoR that may have been their as well. That kind of thing]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11480046.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11480046.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Paymaster Games wrote:
Now i am going to toss this out their. GW did say that the Old World was going to take place during the time of three emperors. Since this period of time does not just cover the Great War with Chaos, but also the Vampire Wars, Gorbad Ironclaw's Waagh on the empire, The War of Sand and Blood in land of the dead, Norse raids on the high elves, the Second Skaven Civil War, and the other conflicts and campaign settings. This would make more sense then focusing on a single war that the whole of the Warhammer World was not a part of. GW could release the different conflicts/wars/campaigns as a source book with the major and minor players, the world/politics/intrigues of the time, different armies that were part of the war, the SC's and RoR that may have been their as well. That kind of thing


Having a base rulebook and army book with Storm of Chaos style sourcebooks with campaigns, armies and sub factions sounds very attractive to me.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11480048.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11480048.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plenty of story scope for that 20 years span if we go with that. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11480115.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11480115.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11480155.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11480155.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11480189.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11480189.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Mr_Rose wrote:
I personally hope TOW is successful enough for them to develop the less explored regions of the world like Ind and the southern continent. We know there’s “good” beastmen down there, as well as a bunch of human nations. After Cathay, of course.


I would love to see a Far East source book with Cathey, Nippon, Ogre Kingdoms, and Hobgoblin Khanate, with mercenaries from Ind and the other lands of the East, but i do not think that is going to happen.

You know it might. GW will only make rules for models so lets break it down, 4 Heroes ( General, BSB, Wizard, Random Hero), 4 units (Light foot troops, Heavy Foot, Light Cav, heavy cav), one artillery, one monster. This is very do able.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11480366.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11480366.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Paymaster Games wrote:
 Mr_Rose wrote:
I personally hope TOW is successful enough for them to develop the less explored regions of the world like Ind and the southern continent. We know there’s “good” beastmen down there, as well as a bunch of human nations. After Cathay, of course.


I would love to see a Far East source book with Cathey, Nippon, Ogre Kingdoms, and Hobgoblin Khanate, with mercenaries from Ind and the other lands of the East, but i do not think that is going to happen.

You know it might. GW will only make rules for models so lets break it down, 4 Heroes ( General, BSB, Wizard, Random Hero), 4 units (Light foot troops, Heavy Foot, Light Cav, heavy cav), one artillery, one monster. This is very do able.


A sourcebook like that certainly would have to thread very very carefully in order not to become Warhammer Armies: Racism, and GW has a less than stellar record on that front. It's probably too risky for a game that just start to re-establish itself.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11480367.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11480367.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Tsagualsa wrote:
 Paymaster Games wrote:
 Mr_Rose wrote:
I personally hope TOW is successful enough for them to develop the less explored regions of the world like Ind and the southern continent. We know there’s “good” beastmen down there, as well as a bunch of human nations. After Cathay, of course.


I would love to see a Far East source book with Cathey, Nippon, Ogre Kingdoms, and Hobgoblin Khanate, with mercenaries from Ind and the other lands of the East, but i do not think that is going to happen.

You know it might. GW will only make rules for models so lets break it down, 4 Heroes ( General, BSB, Wizard, Random Hero), 4 units (Light foot troops, Heavy Foot, Light Cav, heavy cav), one artillery, one monster. This is very do able.


A sourcebook like that certainly would have to thread very very carefully in order not to become Warhammer Armies: Racism, and GW has a less than stellar record on that front. It's probably too risky for a game that just start to re-establish itself.


Which reminds me of the 'outrage' over the old D&D Oriental Adventures playing into medieval Asian stereotypes. As if D&D and WFB aren't already playing into medieval European stereotypes.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481069.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481069.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481100.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481100.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. AoS came along and then poof they were gone what a couple years later? What a waste ☹️]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481112.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481112.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Which reminds me; I really, really hope they do something different with chariots in TOW; the old way clearly was not working. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481127.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481127.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
John D Law wrote:
I wish they had kept the bretonnian stuff around longer. The plastic men at arms, Pegasus knights and others were still recent kits when AoS came along and then poof they were gone what a couple years later? What a waste ☹️


Umm, I mean they were from the end of 6th edition, so depends what you call 'recent'

Edit, looks to me to be 2004, so they were around over a decade.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481137.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481137.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. imo. Same with a lot of the aforementioned tomb kings kits.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481143.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481143.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
John D Law wrote:
They still kept around empire and dwarf kits that are much older. Just don’t understand the need to nix them. They were good kits imo. Same with a lot of the aforementioned tomb kings kits.


No, they didn't. The dwarves are from 2014, and the oldest empire kits kept around are from 2007. They also fit in with the Sigmar theme better than the Brets did. The Brets suffered from GW not really knowing what to do with them, which is disappointing as they were my favourite faction.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481148.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481148.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481158.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481158.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. AoS.

The difference is that Tomb Kings and Bretonnians were neglected in Fantasy and got squatted because of it, not because their kits were too old. GW's designers just couldn't be bothered to do anything with them and they likely suffered in terms of sales because of it. To 2015 GW that's a death sentence.

You can also have a look at Blood Bowl where humans and orcs got a second team while there is still no clue as to when we'll even see the Khemri team.

The Old World is a chance to give these factions attention, but for me it's a believe it when I see it matter. Because precedent does not favor Tomb Kings and Bretonnia, no matter how much they feature in the previewed art and maps.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481169.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481169.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
John D Law wrote:
They still kept around empire and dwarf kits that are much older. Just don’t understand the need to nix them. They were good kits imo. Same with a lot of the aforementioned tomb kings kits.


They were to generic.
Its basically historical knights that borrow heavily from Arturian legend. Lets not forget the whole sacking of Fantasy Battle was getting rid of anything they could not register as their uniqe IP.
Will be interresting how they deal with this in the coming "The Old World" setting.

Sorry to keep up the general discussion in this news thread.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481170.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481170.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. WHFB model of mostly great blocks of line infantry, 20+ models per block, 1-2 Lord, 3-4 Heroes, a smattering of cavalry and monsters and some war machines, introducing a new faction that is not already established is a huge risk, just because you need several multipart plastic kits even if you take multiple builds into account. And while that may be practical at the technoligical and productivity level GW currently is at, it also is a huge upfront cost wall for new or returning players, because you'd need to lay down hundreds of Euros just to get to the minimal buy-in for a typical game size.

If they want to avoid a lot of what strangled WHFB in later times, they need to do something about that, either by reducing games size, unit size, or doing something with e.g. unit fillers or the like. Blocked regiments of infantry are a huge part of WHFB's appeal, but it needs to be less expensive and intimidating for newbies. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481174.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481174.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
John D Law wrote:
They still kept around empire and dwarf kits that are much older. Just don’t understand the need to nix them. They were good kits imo. Same with a lot of the aforementioned tomb kings kits.


The Bretonnian plastics were pretty damned old, I doubt there's too many core kits that are as old, Lizardmen Saurus and Skinks perhaps? And the Saurus are well overdue for an update (I actually kind of like the Skinks though). They also come from the days when GW's proportions were the worst. The archer models had absolutely massive heads. Also the horses were too big to rank up (which given they were in Lance Formation I always found more egregious than other cavalry units not ranking up easily). I did like the men at arms, but aesthetically I preferred the metal ones they replaced.

The Perry twins metal Bretonnians that predated the plastics that were around when WHFB was killed were, IMO, better models.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481175.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481175.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
John D Law wrote:
They still kept around empire and dwarf kits that are much older. Just don’t understand the need to nix them. They were good kits imo. Same with a lot of the aforementioned tomb kings kits.


The Bretonnian plastics were pretty damned old, I doubt there's too many core kits that are as old, Lizardmen Saurus and Skinks perhaps? And the Saurus are well overdue for an update (I actually kind of like the Skinks though). They also come from the days when GW's proportions were the worst. The archer models had absolutely massive heads. Also the horses were too big to rank up (which given they were in Lance Formation I always found more egregious than other cavalry units not ranking up easily). I did like the men at arms, but aesthetically I preferred the metal ones they replaced.

The Perry twins metal Bretonnians that predated the plastics that were around when WHFB was killed were, IMO, better models.


They were better models, but not better Warhammer models. They were too close to various historical styles, and not specifically 'warhammery' enough in the eyes of GW, much like large parts of the Empire range.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481177.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481177.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Generally speaking Western culture is OK with racism against whites (and sexism against men, for that matter) due to both the historical and current institutions of government favoring them.


If you can't laugh at yourself, you've got no business laughing at anyone else. That's a lesson that seems to have been forgotten in the modern world.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481301.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481301.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Fayric wrote:
John D Law wrote:
They still kept around empire and dwarf kits that are much older. Just don’t understand the need to nix them. They were good kits imo. Same with a lot of the aforementioned tomb kings kits.


They were to generic.
Its basically historical knights that borrow heavily from Arturian legend. Lets not forget the whole sacking of Fantasy Battle was getting rid of anything they could not register as their uniqe IP.
Will be interresting how they deal with this in the coming "The Old World" setting.

Sorry to keep up the general discussion in this news thread.


This is just speculation that keeps getting repeated despite not really being how copyright/IP law works. It doesn't matter how "unique" a design is, it doesn't add extra protection to it whether it's something like historical-based Bretonnian Knights or its instead some sort of unique outright magical fantasy knight.

That they're going back to the Old World and keeping those original "non-unique" designs of something like the Bretonnian Knights further shows its not the case. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481386.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481386.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. AoS line is bog standard fantasy stuff. Dragons, dwarves, warriors in big chunky armour (Warmachine got that years before stormcast).


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481459.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481459.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481685.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481685.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Grumpy Gnome wrote:
But will there be Orks or Orruks in the Old World? Lizardmen or Seraphon? Dwarves or Duardin?


You need to look at the links on the first page, they answered this already.

It said in short:

"feth no, it's not going to be on rounds."

"feth no, it's not going to be Warmaster."

"feth no, it's not going to have AOS names."

"Cherry picked rules from all editions from 3rd to 8th, plus some new stuff."]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481707.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481707.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Just Tony wrote:
 Grumpy Gnome wrote:
But will there be Orks or Orruks in the Old World? Lizardmen or Seraphon? Dwarves or Duardin?


You need to look at the links on the first page, they answered this already.

It said in short:

"feth no, it's not going to be on rounds."

"feth no, it's not going to be Warmaster."

"feth no, it's not going to have AOS names."

"Cherry picked rules from all editions from 3rd to 8th, plus some new stuff."


You are correct. That is what they said. However, that may not be what we eventually see in the future. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481797.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481797.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Grumpy Gnome wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
 Grumpy Gnome wrote:
But will there be Orks or Orruks in the Old World? Lizardmen or Seraphon? Dwarves or Duardin?


You need to look at the links on the first page, they answered this already.

It said in short:

"feth no, it's not going to be on rounds."

"feth no, it's not going to be Warmaster."

"feth no, it's not going to have AOS names."

"Cherry picked rules from all editions from 3rd to 8th, plus some new stuff."


You are correct. That is what they said. However, that may not be what we eventually see in the future.


By that logic, nothing they say is really relevant until they show models in production, finished printed material and boxes. Everything before that could be changed again.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481813.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481813.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. GW may go back on earlier statements, it doesn't make much sense to have a side game aimed at bringing in customers who may not be interested in the main games and then mixing things from the new setting into the old one that drove people away to begin with. In Blood Bowl an orc is still an orc and a dwarf is still a dwarf, and there is no Sigmarine team in spite of early concerns that GW might introduce AoS stuff into the game.

The models are where we're likely to see the biggest change from what some may recollect as Warhammer Fantasy. Just like in Blood Bowl and Necromunda, there is no way GW's sculptors won't work to modern GW style instead of what we used to have twenty years ago, which will primarily result in embiggened models. We'll be seeing dwarfs in the style of 8th ed plastic Longbeards and Ironbreakers rather than their metal predecessors. But there is precious little reason to believe these won't be called dwarfs in The Old World.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481819.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481819.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Grumpy Gnome wrote:
But will there be Orks or Orruks in the Old World? Lizardmen or Seraphon? Dwarves or Duardin?


From the last WC article

More precisely, we decided to look into the decades prior to this legendary world-changing event. In those years before the Chaos Lord Asavar Kull led his armies south against the nations of Men and Dwarfs,


From the moors and mountains come roving bands of Orcs and Goblins, looting and pillaging,
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481825.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481825.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Mr Morden wrote:
 Grumpy Gnome wrote:
But will there be Orks or Orruks in the Old World? Lizardmen or Seraphon? Dwarves or Duardin?


From the last WC article

More precisely, we decided to look into the decades prior to this legendary world-changing event. In those years before the Chaos Lord Asavar Kull led his armies south against the nations of Men and Dwarfs,


From the moors and mountains come roving bands of Orcs and Goblins, looting and pillaging,


They can always claim "Dwarfs" and "Orcs" are terms commonly used by humans, but in their own respective culture they have a more fancy name. Like Eldar suddenly are the ancient culture of the Aeldari, with further sub-groups like Asyriani and Drukhari, and Imperial Guard was just a lazy way of saying "Astra Militarum". ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481840.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481840.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Fayric wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 Grumpy Gnome wrote:
But will there be Orks or Orruks in the Old World? Lizardmen or Seraphon? Dwarves or Duardin?


From the last WC article

More precisely, we decided to look into the decades prior to this legendary world-changing event. In those years before the Chaos Lord Asavar Kull led his armies south against the nations of Men and Dwarfs,


From the moors and mountains come roving bands of Orcs and Goblins, looting and pillaging,


They can always claim "Dwarfs" and "Orcs" are terms commonly used by humans, but in their own respective culture they have a more fancy name. Like Eldar suddenly are the ancient culture of the Aeldari, with further sub-groups like Asyriani and Drukhari, and Imperial Guard was just a lazy way of saying "Astra Militarum".


Well that is in fact true for Dwarfs - that is a human name - they are Dawi. Gotrek even gets called out on this in AOS. I doubt Orcs and Goblins have a name for their race..]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481841.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481841.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
Tsagualsa wrote:
 Grumpy Gnome wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
 Grumpy Gnome wrote:
But will there be Orks or Orruks in the Old World? Lizardmen or Seraphon? Dwarves or Duardin?


You need to look at the links on the first page, they answered this already.

It said in short:

"feth no, it's not going to be on rounds."

"feth no, it's not going to be Warmaster."

"feth no, it's not going to have AOS names."

"Cherry picked rules from all editions from 3rd to 8th, plus some new stuff."


You are correct. That is what they said. However, that may not be what we eventually see in the future.


By that logic, nothing they say is really relevant until they show models in production, finished printed material and boxes. Everything before that could be changed again.


It's their way to validate constantly saying it's going to be all those things I listed despite being told explicitly that they weren't...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481856.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481856.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481874.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481874.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. GW go to all the trouble of bringing it back, to set its ablaze with changing some of its core features.
Like after last time, deliberately poking that seems foolish.

There is lot that can be changed before the core itself is hollow out. I just don’t think they would put the work in to then change the reasons to bring it back.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481877.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481877.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Grumpy Gnome wrote:
But will there be Orks or Orruks in the Old World? Lizardmen or Seraphon? Dwarves or Duardin?




So lets consider why GW used a lot of name changes for things when they shifted from Old World to AoS. First it was a new setting so there was that, but another reason, logically, is that by shifting to unique names GW could copyright and protect those names. This meant that GW would be the only ones who could sell Orruks, the only ones who could advertise Orruks and thus the only ones that should show up in google rankings when Orruks are searched.

The actual models are not as strongly protected, yes the specific sculpts 100% are protected and certain design elements within them can and are protected as well. Anyone who has hung around 3d printing for a while has likely seen a standard GW copyright letter or spoken to creators who have had copyright strikes by GW. When its sculptors (not retailers selling) then generally speaking GW cannot enforce a blanket ban; its more specific. They can't ban a man in heavy armour, but they can enforce protection of the symbols for chapters and protect certain key design elements. The shape of a bolter is likely protected, but you can change enough to have the same effect of a huge high calibre gun.


So all GW protects with unique names are the copyright of those name and the search results. Back when AoS was brought out GW was still in full Kirby mode - that meant almost zero online marketing and advertising. They had the store ,but otherwise their interactions online at the time was more focused on shutting down leaks and rumour websites. GW of that time in management likely felt they needed totally unique names to protect their google rankings and search results to remain relevant and to stop 3rd parties stealing their thunder.

Today GW is marketing online every day of the year; with most week days seen up to 5 articles posted on their community site alone; couple that with mirror posts on Facebook and other sites and their own unique posts on those sites and weekend posts too and you've got a marketing machine. GW doesn't "need" to protect their search results with unique names like they used too - they've protected them with an insanely powerful and active online marketing machine. They can safely go back to Orks and Knights and Dwarves and Lizardmen because GW is on the ball with the online world now. They GET how it works, they've professionals and marketing teams and a functional online interaction now.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481884.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481884.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Fayric wrote:


They can always claim "Dwarfs" and "Orcs" are terms commonly used by humans, but in their own respective culture they have a more fancy name. Like Eldar suddenly are the ancient culture of the Aeldari, with further sub-groups like Asyriani and Drukhari, and Imperial Guard was just a lazy way of saying "Astra Militarum".


That was already true in WHFB. Dwarfs call themselves Dawi(with Chaos Dwarfs being Dawi-Zharr), High Elves are the Asur, Dark Elves are Druchii, and Wood Elves are Asrai. We've always seen things from human terms with the other races having their own terms for the most part.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481903.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481903.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Fayric wrote:


They can always claim "Dwarfs" and "Orcs" are terms commonly used by humans, but in their own respective culture they have a more fancy name. Like Eldar suddenly are the ancient culture of the Aeldari, with further sub-groups like Asyriani and Drukhari, and Imperial Guard was just a lazy way of saying "Astra Militarum".


That was already true in WHFB. Dwarfs call themselves Dawi(with Chaos Dwarfs being Dawi-Zharr), High Elves are the Asur, Dark Elves are Druchii, and Wood Elves are Asrai. We've always seen things from human terms with the other races having their own terms for the most part.


Exactly ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481920.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481920.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Mr Morden wrote:
I doubt Orcs and Goblins have a name for their race..


Orcs call themself Orcs and Goblins Gobbos.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481929.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481929.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Grumpy Gnome wrote:
But will there be Orks or Orruks in the Old World? Lizardmen or Seraphon? Dwarves or Duardin?


Eh. I'll use my non-GW minis regardless. It's not like I play in a GW store.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tsagualsa wrote:

By that logic, nothing they say is really relevant until they show models in production, finished printed material and boxes. Everything before that could be changed again.


Yeah, pretty much.

Let's just say trust in GW is not what it used to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Apple fox wrote:
Would GW go to all the trouble of bringing it back, to set its ablaze with changing some of its core features.
Like after last time, deliberately poking that seems foolish.


Wouldn't be the first time a corporation made that mistake.

Heck, it wouldn't be the first time a corporation made that mistake this year.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481945.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481945.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
Use of the older GW terms in Blood Bowl is enough for me, although I must admit I expected the new terms to be used for intellectual property protection it would seem that expectation is misplaced. Mea culpa.

Edit: But let me also be clear, I do not trust GW nor will I be playing in a GW shop. I like playing my games with whatever minis I choose. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481974.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11481974.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
Tsagualsa wrote:
By that logic, nothing they say is really relevant until they show models in production, finished printed material and boxes. Everything before that could be changed again.


I mean, that's exactly where I'm sitting. From my perspective, this is a lot of excitement and waiting for something that could very well end up being tabletop vaporware.

No real sense in waiting and hoping when there's tons of good fantasy rank n' flank on the market now Nevermind that WHFB veterans have 8 editions to can pick from, as long as they didn't toss or sell their books when the editions changed or the End Times hit.

You can put your minis on the table now, if you have a WHFB army. If you don't, there are other companies making fantastic fantasy minis suitable for rank n' flank, and about a ker-billion STL creators if you own or have access to a resin printer.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482060.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482060.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Tsagualsa wrote:
 triplegrim wrote:
So, the latest releaae mentions Avasar Kull. Can he co exist with Louen the Orc Slayer? Different wikis say they lived a century apart?


Yeah, Louen Orcslayer started his reign in 2201 iirc and was noted to have personannly lead the cleansing of Bretonnia from Orks for the next century, and Asavar Kull can easily be centuries old due to chaos shenanigans, and did of course die in 2304 at the culmination of the Great War against Chaos. Kings of Bretonnia are usually also Grail Knights and have much extended lifespans due to the Grail's magic, so it checks out.


There is certainly scope for those two to be contemporaries given Louen could have been around for decades. Assuming they keep to the same lore as previously though, Louen would be dead and buried by the time of the Great War itself, as would his (presumed) successor as Jules was killed by a Chaos Knight on the Northern Coast of Bretonnia some time just prior to 2297 IC, sparking the Affair of the False Grail. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482343.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482343.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Psychopomp wrote:
Tsagualsa wrote:
By that logic, nothing they say is really relevant until they show models in production, finished printed material and boxes. Everything before that could be changed again.


I mean, that's exactly where I'm sitting. From my perspective, this is a lot of excitement and waiting for something that could very well end up being tabletop vaporware.

No real sense in waiting and hoping when there's tons of good fantasy rank n' flank on the market now Nevermind that WHFB veterans have 8 editions to can pick from, as long as they didn't toss or sell their books when the editions changed or the End Times hit.

You can put your minis on the table now, if you have a WHFB army. If you don't, there are other companies making fantastic fantasy minis suitable for rank n' flank, and about a ker-billion STL creators if you own or have access to a resin printer.


Also those alternatives to GW work out substantially cheaper, for quality that is on par with the GW Lord of the Rings range. So more suitable for rank and file models.

If the new GW Warhammer Fantasy Battles is a good system adding it to a collection of rules will just add more option. As the setting is even further back in the setting than it was previously, it means that a lot more historical kits will also fit in nicely.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482476.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482476.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Stick to the news and rumours please. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482524.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482524.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482530.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482530.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Mr Morden wrote:
Nice to see some more square based Wolf boyz on Warhammer Community



Tell me wrong, but doesnt it feel a fresh paintjob? Or they just have a photo from a unit, that isnt in production for like 2-3 years.

I mean you guys propebly know the rumour from hastings, that GW have painted up some Orc boar boys. Now this. Do you think they will bring back squatted minis?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482630.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482630.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482687.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482687.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Platuan4th wrote:
The previous studio examples look very similar but have the banner hair painted red. Could just be they updated the unit they had in storage.


Who knows, it need not mean a lot, there's always the possibility that the OOP miniatures are just touched up for a showcase for the 40th anniversary celebration, or that some limited made to order runs will be made available for that.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482690.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482690.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Platuan4th wrote:
The previous studio examples look very similar but have the banner hair painted red. Could just be they updated the unit they had in storage.


Last time I saw the Warhammer worlds exibition models on video, they all where on ovals and rounds. Why would you store old models?
Also what are people going buy for the game, when it starts. Do you think they updated all minis for all of the factions?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482736.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482736.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 herjan1987 wrote:
Why would you store old models?


Because GWHQ has a literal GW museum that they the rotate game history displays for. Someone even noted that the Tomb King models were on display during the summer in the last thread.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482790.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482790.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. GW models are paid to be painted, its an investment. Why throw that away when the amount of space to store them is tiny. As long as they've a sensible inventory system they can store up loads of models. Especially as they typically only paint up one squad per model box; so they aren't sitting on vast armies each time they make a model. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482803.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482803.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 herjan1987 wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Nice to see some more square based Wolf boyz on Warhammer Community



Tell me wrong, but doesnt it feel a fresh paintjob? Or they just have a photo from a unit, that isnt in production for like 2-3 years.

I mean you guys propebly know the rumour from hastings, that GW have painted up some Orc boar boys. Now this. Do you think they will bring back squatted minis?


Honestly? It would take them zero effort to bust out some boxed sets like the old Battalion boxes from older molds. Take up a bit of space on shelves, but all contained and away you go. Maybe supplement boxes with the elite units. It'd give them plenty of kit to hit the ground running when TOW launches.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482851.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482851.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 herjan1987 wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
The previous studio examples look very similar but have the banner hair painted red. Could just be they updated the unit they had in storage.


Last time I saw the Warhammer worlds exibition models on video, they all where on ovals and rounds. Why would you store old models?
Also what are people going buy for the game, when it starts. Do you think they updated all minis for all of the factions?


They buy new models? Do you think they will release multiple armies all at once? Would be nice but not hoping for getting loads of old kits back on sale.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482869.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482869.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
tneva82 wrote:

They buy new models? Do you think they will release multiple armies all at once? Would be nice but not hoping for getting loads of old kits back on sale.


Okay, but let's say they put out Kislev,Chaos and Empire at first, thats whats the rumours say. What, if I am a new player and into Dwarfs or Tomb Kings or Orcs and Goblins? What do they sell to me then?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482902.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482902.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 herjan1987 wrote:
Okay, but let's say they put out Kislev,Chaos and Empire at first, thats whats the rumours say. What, if I am a new player and into Dwarfs or Tomb Kings or Orcs and Goblins? What do they sell to me then?


We don't know how GW will handle this, perhaps they haven't decided yet? But I agree that all those WHFB models still on sale with AOS-packaging is looking more and more like an elephant in the room.

It makes a lot of sense for GW to repackage or re-release the old WHFB-models but It's not how they usually operate. One could also argue that it doesn't make sense to support a new game with old models.

Time will tell, I'm very curious about this myself! I also dream of MTO for Perry Empire and Kevin Adams O&G!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482908.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482908.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 herjan1987 wrote:
tneva82 wrote:

They buy new models? Do you think they will release multiple armies all at once? Would be nice but not hoping for getting loads of old kits back on sale.


Okay, but let's say they put out Kislev,Chaos and Empire at first, thats whats the rumours say. What, if I am a new player and into Dwarfs or Tomb Kings or Orcs and Goblins? What do they sell to me then?


Nothing.

What does GW sell for xenos players in adeptus titanicus? Nothing.

They would in this case wait for new orcs&goblin models etc to come out.

Or rather they aim to get you buy new models. Not put out old models on sale you MAYBE don't have already.

GW would also find it tricky to put up new model price to old models.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482912.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482912.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
tneva82 wrote:
They would in this case wait for new orcs&goblin models etc to come out.


Not impossible at all, I could see GW doing it this way. But I really do wonder where that would leave the 20+ boxes of old WHFB O&G models that are currently on sale under the AOS-brand?

Night Goblins, Savage Orcs, Spider Riders, River Trolls etc are all there right now! Would GW just pretend that they are not WHFB-models? Again, not impossible, I can see GW doing exactly that too.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482916.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482916.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. GW tends to hate cross -selling - they vaguely do it with Underworlds and AOS but its all super minimum effort. They could do a lot more with things like Daemons, beastmen etc across ranges.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482960.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482960.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. HH pattern and release fewer but larger compilations of related models with separate lists. It would certainly work for the Empire factions at least; the basic human troopers with all the specific elements in appendices.
Same for chaos, vampires.
Less so for O&G and the rest though but then HH has things like liber imperium that houses 3 completely unrelated lists. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482962.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11482962.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. OW, but drawing of models and concepts we've arleady seen decades before, isnt really building up on that excitement. Would be fun to see at least one model, even if it wont be release untilll a few years (they've done it for sob)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483035.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483035.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 streetsamurai wrote:
Im really excited for the OW, but drawing of models and concepts we've arleady seen decades before, isnt really building up on that excitement. Would be fun to see at least one model, even if it wont be release untilll a few years (they've done it for sob)


They already talked about that essentially every Kislev unit in TWW3 is a potential new Kislev model since the designs originated in the GW design studio.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483042.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483042.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Tsagualsa wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
The previous studio examples look very similar but have the banner hair painted red. Could just be they updated the unit they had in storage.


Who knows, it need not mean a lot, there's always the possibility that the OOP miniatures are just touched up for a showcase for the 40th anniversary celebration, or that some limited made to order runs will be made available for that.


That exact picture is in the 8th edition O&G army book, page 85. So, no, it's not an updated unit, they just recycled an old image.

GW has/had at least 2 studio painted Wolf Rider units, one with spears (the one with the red banner) and one with bows (this one with the grey banner).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483265.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483265.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Tsagualsa wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
The previous studio examples look very similar but have the banner hair painted red. Could just be they updated the unit they had in storage.


Who knows, it need not mean a lot, there's always the possibility that the OOP miniatures are just touched up for a showcase for the 40th anniversary celebration, or that some limited made to order runs will be made available for that.


That exact picture is in the 8th edition O&G army book, page 85. So, no, it's not an updated unit, they just recycled an old image.

GW has/had at least 2 studio painted Wolf Rider units, one with spears (the one with the red banner) and one with bows (this one with the grey banner).


There's an old studio version with bows that also has a red banner:

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483276.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483276.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
But the pic they just posted on WHC is definitely an old pic that dates back to at least the 8th ed army book.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483278.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483278.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483283.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483283.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
Round bases or squares? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483289.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483289.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. gw answered that years ago,..

Now size of bases they haven't commented]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483312.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483312.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Dekskull wrote:
All I want to know is one thing....

Round bases or squares?



https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/21/square-bases-and-kislev-ascendant-see-your-questions-about-warhammer-the-old-world-answered/


From the first freaking page of this thread.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483318.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483318.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Rihgu wrote:
I can confirm that the image, with the black tassles, is from the 8th ed army book - not a new image.


Okay, why keep a ten year old image around?

Also I said, that hastings was rumoring that they painted up some Orc boar boys recently and old Tomb Kings and Bretonnian plastics went back to production to recieve fancy paintjobs.

Source:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M-oyypDZe6s

Look at 1:34]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483487.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483487.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 herjan1987 wrote:

Okay, why keep a ten year old image around?



Why not? GW constantly reuses artwork, and i some cases photographs, that are years or even decades old. Producing photographs or other reproductions costs money, reusing assets that you already acquired or produced just makes sense from an economic perspective, especially if you need to pad out a lot of filler articles and social media chaff at all times.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483497.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483497.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 herjan1987 wrote:
 Rihgu wrote:
I can confirm that the image, with the black tassles, is from the 8th ed army book - not a new image.


Okay, why keep a ten year old image around?

Also I said, that hastings was rumoring that they painted up some Orc boar boys recently and old Tomb Kings and Bretonnian plastics went back to production to recieve fancy paintjobs.

Source:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M-oyypDZe6s

Look at 1:34


Why not? Couple bits so expense is about 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000001£. (and that probably is several magnitudes more expensive than it actually is)

They keep old art as well...

If you think they would keep old sprues around for OOP items when keeping them around costs more cash why have hard time believing they would keep images that have far less expenses?
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483498.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483498.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 herjan1987 wrote:
 Rihgu wrote:
I can confirm that the image, with the black tassles, is from the 8th ed army book - not a new image.


Okay, why keep a ten year old image around?


Umm, why would they delete it? GW clearly keeps the digital assets going back a long way, they're releasing White Dwarfs from 17 years ago on Warhammer+, it's not like they're recreating those White Dwarfs from scratch, they have all those digital assets on hand.



Also I said, that hastings was rumoring that they painted up some Orc boar boys recently and old Tomb Kings and Bretonnian plastics went back to production to recieve fancy paintjobs.

Source:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M-oyypDZe6s

Look at 1:34


I know it's a rumour, but also I reckon the more likely thing is they already had those models around. GW has a bunch of studio painted models beyond what we see.... and in this case they were ones we had seen before people just didn't recognise them at first

At the end of the day, we don't really know what GW are planning and what their motivations are. It's oft stated that Bretonnians were terrible because they were too generic and not popular, but a lot of TOW stuff they've teased is around Bretonnia for whatever reason. A lot of concept art I'm sure is generated during the conception and development of a new project, why GW have chosen to do what they've done, I think people are reading into it too much at this point.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483500.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483500.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483518.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483518.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.


It's a repeat pattern with wargamers. If GW ignores an army model and/or rules wise for long enough the sales and interest drop enough that it falls into a deadzone where it needs significant investment to bring it back up.
Marketing also plays a big part in it; if GW just don't mention or market an army for a long while it drops in popularity.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483520.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483520.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483526.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483526.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Moving on to another rumour, the release date. Their is a great deal of talk saying the release date would likely be Q3 or Q4 of this year to work along with the 40th anniversary of Warhammer. But according to some of the distributers i have spoken to seem to under the impression that the release date would likely be in Q1 of 2024.

While i would prefer the earlier date, i am fine with early next year. what are your thoughts?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483572.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483572.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Paymaster Games wrote:
I am not going to worry about some of you negative Nancy's. I am still super excited.

Moving on to another rumour, the release date. Their is a great deal of talk saying the release date would likely be Q3 or Q4 of this year to work along with the 40th anniversary of Warhammer. But according to some of the distributers i have spoken to seem to under the impression that the release date would likely be in Q1 of 2024.

While i would prefer the earlier date, i am fine with early next year. what are your thoughts?


I can imagine they do a starter box for the anniversary, it would be awesome. And gives some build up time for it.
Just a this is where it begins, and then starting off the next year with a look at the full game release.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483573.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483573.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Paymaster Games wrote:
I am not going to worry about some of you negative Nancy's. I am still super excited.

Moving on to another rumour, the release date. Their is a great deal of talk saying the release date would likely be Q3 or Q4 of this year to work along with the 40th anniversary of Warhammer. But according to some of the distributers i have spoken to seem to under the impression that the release date would likely be in Q1 of 2024.

While i would prefer the earlier date, i am fine with early next year. what are your thoughts?


I would LOVE to be excited, but I was excited to see what would happen after End Times, and got burned something ferocious.

Once burned, twice shy.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483575.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483575.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. GW.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483633.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483633.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
If the full story we have now was available to us back then it would not have been received NEARLY as bad. Major communication failure on behalf of 'we don't do market research' era GW.

That’s because the story we have now didn’t exist then. The dude running the company at the time literally thought no-one would care if the rules were terrible and the background nonexistent if the minis were good enough. Which was a shame because he greenlit the og Stormcast too. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483738.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483738.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Overread wrote:

It's a repeat pattern with wargamers. If GW ignores an army model and/or rules wise for long enough the sales and interest drop enough that it falls into a deadzone where it needs significant investment to bring it back up.
Marketing also plays a big part in it; if GW just don't mention or market an army for a long while it drops in popularity.


I don't think its so much significant investment, you just need a wave of models.

The problem is the Brets lacked obvious avenues for expansion.
I mean... you could release new kits for young knights, average knights, better knights, best knights, knights on flying horses, not-quite knights but still riding horses and then the various peasants. But its not obviously sending the faction in an interesting new direction.

There's probably some sort of scope for monstrous cav maybe - but it would kind of go against the fluff. See also doing something with warmachines, or magic.

Without any insight, I'd be surprised if this came out this year if you assume a new edition of 40k is meant to dominate the summer.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483751.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483751.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.

And when it comes to GW a model is concept art, sculpting, mould design, mould production, master copies, painting, photos, cardstock, shipping - its a big investment and that's not even counting writing words, editing and ordering new books and shipping them as well.



And many times just updating models to a newer sculpt design with modern materials/concepts can be a big interest spark. Just look at how many forces in AoS are really behind - heck the Skaven are still running around with 1st generation plastics and metal and Skaven are a really popular army in general. Old World was neglected for a long time; it didn't get the marketing, nor the updates it required to keep current and its sales fell. Once interest and sales fell local interest got harder. It didn't help that GW also made the games larger and larger so the model count to get started went up.

So you had fewer local players; less marketing and company interest and a bigger model count to get started (accepting that with the rank and file rules most armies didn't work until at least 1K points and ideally 1.5K).





But if you were expanding Brets you can do loads of updates
3 or 4 ground cavalry kits; 2 or 3 pegasus kits for infantry
Several named heroes in both forms.
A big centre stage lady of the lake on unicorn style model.

A court of famous knights (round table) group of named heroes.

Various kinds of rank and file infantry and peasant infantry.

Siege weapons - light support weapons and all. Yes even Brets would need such weapons in war.


We've not even touched on things like ranged weapon options; fancy fantasy units plucked from King Arthur's legends or French mythology around those times; nor even what real militaries could bring to the mix.
Heck they could have spliced a load of ranger Robbin Hoods in and mounted versions for light ranged cavalry. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483757.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483757.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483758.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483758.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
I mean... you could release new kits for young knights, average knights, better knights, best knights, knights on flying horses, not-quite knights but still riding horses and then the various peasants. But its not obviously sending the faction in an interesting new direction.

There's probably some sort of scope for monstrous cav maybe - but it would kind of go against the fluff. See also doing something with warmachines, or magic.

I think people forget what a weird retcon those 'fluff' restrictions were. Earlier Bret armies happily fielded equivalent cannons and crossbows. The main difference was Empire had better foot knights and handguns, while Bret had war altars and +4 Shock elite cav (2 attacks) which the Empire list couldn't match.

Without any insight, I'd be surprised if this came out this year if you assume a new edition of 40k is meant to dominate the summer.

The very first preview (November 2019- the 'we have a logo and that's all' preview) put it at 3+ years off, minimum. And that was before everything world-wide and GW's own struggle to sort out their production and warehouse issues.

They might have eyed summer 2023 originally in a pure thought experiment draft release schedule, but even then I doubt it. With all the everything that's happened, I wouldn't be shocked by 2025.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483760.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483760.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. AoS armies are basically running around with utterly tiny unit rosters right now ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483761.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483761.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
Knights -
RotR and Knights Errent have the same role
Grail Knights - General or BSB bodyguard/ Hammer unit
Questing Knights - Different Role then all above knights, can act as a anvil unit and can effectively fight, heavies, big guys, and monsters
Pegasus Knights - Flyer unit and big guy unit

Commoners -
Squires - light cav
Grail Pilgrams - Heavy foot
Men-at -arms - light foot
Bowmen - Archer
Trebuchet - a pretty good artillery piece

Do you need to expand this army? Not really this army is pretty much figured out, but lets say we had too here are some ideas supported by fluff.
Sailors (the Brets do have the best sailors in the old world according to Man-O-War, it is possible that they would come ashore)
Brigands (Robin Hood) Scouts
Woodsmen - Modeled after Frankish Ax Throwers
Wood Elf Impersonators/ fans - Modeled after Celt Fanatics]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483820.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483820.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Paymaster Games wrote:
Why are the Brets such a point of negativity here? The brets have a good army


I collected Brets back in the day, I didn't bring them up in terms of negativity against them, I was just pointing out that it was commonly stated that Brets weren't popular and GW didn't like Brets because they were too generic to be copyrightable... and yet Brets have featured heavily in GW's teasers for TOW so far.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483826.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483826.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
It has no foundation in reality. Nothing in AoS is any more copyrightable than anything in Old World was. Heck most of the AoS models are just Old World sculpts with a new name.



The madness around Old World to Age of Sigmar wasn't born of copyright, it was born of a management team viewing the game purely through the eyes of watching sales metrics and zero customer feedback.

Don't forget Age of Sigmar at launch wasn't a wargame. It was a boutique line of models that had some fluffy fun silly rules to go with it if you wanted to play; but as most customers weren't gamers it didn't really matter. People just wanted cool models and if the models weren't selling then it was a creative problem not a rules, updates, or anything else problem.


Of course this wasn't the actual fact and its why AoS stalled; its why GW had to do a massive change in direction and its why their management had to have a huge shakeup as well.

Oh and not to mention that GW did all that with zero marketing before pulling Old World one morning and then releasing AoS ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483859.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483859.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. WHFB and its death and rebirth into AoS here, again. Take it to its own thread.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483861.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483861.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Voss wrote:
I think people forget what a weird retcon those 'fluff' restrictions were. Earlier Bret armies happily fielded equivalent cannons and crossbows. The main difference was Empire had better foot knights and handguns, while Bret had war altars and +4 Shock elite cav (2 attacks) which the Empire list couldn't match.


I'm going to plead less "forget" and more "had not been born". (Or in my case, had just been born but unsurprisingly wasn't playing warhammer.)

I can't really claim to know what things were like in 3rd edition - and suspect that goes for the majority of people given the subsequent expansion of the hobby/franchise. I don't think Bret's got an army book in 4th edition and I'm not sure if any of the older models were still available to buy in stores at that time (circa 1994 I think was when I started, so I can remember 5th edition coming out).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483955.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11483955.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/01/25/40-years-of-warhammer-the-classic-skeleton-horde-rises-from-the-grave/

Warhammer community runs a 40th year anniversary series on older models. Certainly relevant enough for this thread I hope.

At first I thought these were made to order, but seems they are just running an article series about classic miniatures.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484074.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484074.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 triplegrim wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/01/25/40-years-of-warhammer-the-classic-skeleton-horde-rises-from-the-grave/

Warhammer community runs a 40th year anniversary series on older models. Certainly relevant enough for this thread I hope.

At first I thought these were made to order, but seems they are just running an article series about classic miniatures.


We should be so lucky.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484078.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484078.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
I don't even recognise those models. I have some of the plastics that were available in the late 90's, and also some of the metal skeletons, don't recognise these guys though, what year did they come out?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484086.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484086.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. these plastics, from around 1992/3.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484094.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484094.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484096.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484096.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Dysartes wrote:
My guess is that he's one of these plastics, from around 1992/3.


I think they were in those monopose 'regiment' box sets that had 8-12 models in one or two poses in them and came before the multipart plastic regiment boxes in the late 90s and early 00s.

These ones: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/citadel-warhammer-skeleton-warriors-460183884]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484101.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484101.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Tsagualsa wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
My guess is that he's one of these plastics, from around 1992/3.


I think they were in those monopose 'regiment' box sets that had 8-12 models in one or two poses in them and came before the multipart plastic regiment boxes in the late 90s and early 00s.

These ones: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/citadel-warhammer-skeleton-warriors-460183884


Those are the same thing and yes it is from those kits, they were mulitpart and multipose also used the same sprue in the chariot and cavalry. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484107.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484107.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Bit of a weird article I felt, it doesn't give much background on them.

I don't even recognise those models. I have some of the plastics that were available in the late 90's, and also some of the metal skeletons, don't recognise these guys though, what year did they come out?


I agree it is a weird article. Especially since the title is '40 Years of Warhammer – The Classic Skeleton Horde Rises From the Grave'.

Sounds like a reprint.

My guess is they are simply trying to memorialize the 40k, but perhaps also climatize the fan base for whatever the Old World models will look like.

The first 2 models in the first article were Slambo and The imperial space marine.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/01/18/celebrate-40-years-of-warhammer-with-a-year-long-showcase-of-seminal-miniatures/

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484111.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484111.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484130.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484130.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Voss wrote:
I mean... you could release new kits for young knights, average knights, better knights, best knights, knights on flying horses, not-quite knights but still riding horses and then the various peasants. But its not obviously sending the faction in an interesting new direction.

There's probably some sort of scope for monstrous cav maybe - but it would kind of go against the fluff. See also doing something with warmachines, or magic.

I think people forget what a weird retcon those 'fluff' restrictions were. Earlier Bret armies happily fielded equivalent cannons and crossbows. The main difference was Empire had better foot knights and handguns, while Bret had war altars and +4 Shock elite cav (2 attacks) which the Empire list couldn't match.
The funny thing is you could bring back crossbows easily enough.. Call a faction of "Rogue Knights" who have decided Honor is bunk and that they will win at all costs for the homeland whether or not the Homeland agrees with them. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484188.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484188.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 triplegrim wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/01/25/40-years-of-warhammer-the-classic-skeleton-horde-rises-from-the-grave/

Warhammer community runs a 40th year anniversary series on older models. Certainly relevant enough for this thread I hope.

At first I thought these were made to order, but seems they are just running an article series about classic miniatures.


My favorite part was how they inadvertently point out how much better their older kits were in terms of quantity, options, and customization.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484191.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484191.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
 triplegrim wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/01/25/40-years-of-warhammer-the-classic-skeleton-horde-rises-from-the-grave/

Warhammer community runs a 40th year anniversary series on older models. Certainly relevant enough for this thread I hope.

At first I thought these were made to order, but seems they are just running an article series about classic miniatures.


My favorite part was how they inadvertently point out how much better their older kits were in terms of quantity, options, and customization.


TBF they peaked with that skeleton army box.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484199.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484199.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. And all the models looked alike ( which was kindof the point, but still..).
Skeletons were a milestone for sure but the Chaos Warriors kit was the one that actually gave you the feeling of character and real customisation.
It also meant i had to number my minis because they would only fit into formation when placed in the exact right order... XD]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484200.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484200.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
CoALabaer wrote:
Skeletons were a milestone for sure but the Chaos Warriors kit was the one that actually gave you the feeling of character and real customisation.
It also meant i had to number my minis because they would only fit into formation when placed in the exact right order... XD


Yeah, I remember numbering mini's back in the day.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484208.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484208.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
CoALabaer wrote:
Skeletons were a milestone for sure but the Chaos Warriors kit was the one that actually gave you the feeling of character and real customisation.
It also meant i had to number my minis because they would only fit into formation when placed in the exact right order... XD


Chaos Warriors were where the scale and proportions of Fantasy miniatures went crazy. Those warriors had no necks, massive hands and feet and, as you say, were not constructed with the ranking-up in mind. That led to the goblins and skaven with their own gigantic hands and tiny torsos, and the re-done skeletons that were bigger than the living humans!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484228.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484228.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. IMO one of the better WHFB kits ever made. Yeah it had its flaws but a lot of that was just a matter of when it was, not what it was.

(That said, thank you for getting that the scale creep happened in WHFB and not AoS, tired of having to debunk that.)

As for customization, I do like how the older kits were/are decked out in that regard but some of it was by virtue of very simple joint structures and it being OK for a block of 20 ranked-up minis to all have the same basic pose. In terms of the modern style I would say blightkings are the gold standard; tons of customization and every dude still looks unique.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484271.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484271.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
JSG wrote:
 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
 triplegrim wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/01/25/40-years-of-warhammer-the-classic-skeleton-horde-rises-from-the-grave/

Warhammer community runs a 40th year anniversary series on older models. Certainly relevant enough for this thread I hope.

At first I thought these were made to order, but seems they are just running an article series about classic miniatures.


My favorite part was how they inadvertently point out how much better their older kits were in terms of quantity, options, and customization.


TBF they peaked with that skeleton army box.


I see your Skeletons, and you raise one Free Company.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484273.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484273.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
JSG wrote:
 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
 triplegrim wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/01/25/40-years-of-warhammer-the-classic-skeleton-horde-rises-from-the-grave/

Warhammer community runs a 40th year anniversary series on older models. Certainly relevant enough for this thread I hope.

At first I thought these were made to order, but seems they are just running an article series about classic miniatures.


My favorite part was how they inadvertently point out how much better their older kits were in terms of quantity, options, and customization.


TBF they peaked with that skeleton army box.


I see your Skeletons, and you raise one Free Company.


It was a better kit when it was called Human Mercenaries and included the Mordheim accessory sprue.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484276.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484276.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. WHFB in my eyes peaked with the current Clanrat kit. Three-piece models that are easily put together in great numbers, enough customization with the one ball joint to give some variety, and a huge array of arms & shields to stick on. It isnt the most dynamic or the most customizable, but it is a horde unit that can and will be deployed in great number before dying in great number. And what the kit lacks in quality is heavily made up for in price--consider what other companies offer today for $2 per and it often doesn't look as good.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484279.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484279.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
WHFB in my eyes peaked with the current Clanrat kit. Three-piece models that are easily put together in great numbers, enough customization with the one ball joint to give some variety, and a huge array of arms & shields to stick on. It isnt the most dynamic or the most customizable, but it is a horde unit that can and will be deployed in great number before dying in great number. And what the kit lacks in quality is heavily made up for in price--consider what other companies offer today for $2 per and it often doesn't look as good.


Eh, I was perfectly happy with the original monopose just-add-shield High Elf Spearmen, though ofc YMMV for less disciplined races ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484293.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484293.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
In terms of the modern style I would say blightkings are the gold standard; tons of customization and every dude still looks unique.


Blight Kings are amazing. Why couldn't the forces of the other Chaos gods get kits just as varied and interchangeable? It's almost as if Nurgle is the only god that gets the cool mutations, these days!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484335.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484335.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484451.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484451.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484492.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484492.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484495.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484495.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484591.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484591.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 RustyNumber wrote:
So can we tell from the new Lizardmen saurus and skink riders if they look like they're sculpted to be rank-friendly?


Unfortunately, they're totally not designed to be put on square bases for Warhammer Battle. If the old world uses the exact same sizes, that is.

You can tell with the saurus their tails will constantly be in the way of the ones behind for 25x25mm (not even talking about their dynamic poses and shields that will bump in their colleagues on the side), same with the skink cavalry that's way too big for 25x50mm cavalry bases.

None of the AoS releases are sculpted with rank-friendly designs. I honestly believes the Old World project will have specific releases for them, that won't be simple repackaged AoS "new" releases.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484598.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484598.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Sarouan wrote:
None of the AoS releases are sculpted with rank-friendly designs. I honestly believes the Old World project will have specific releases for them, that won't be simple repackaged AoS "new" releases.


GW will probably need to increase base size or hit the rewind button on scale creep and go back to more reasonably sized models for ranked models.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484604.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484604.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
strigops wrote:
The skins riders didn't exist in fantasy so no issue. Saurus.... most of them i'd say? hard to say with only a video, but a couple are clearly raising their arms to the side.

The first ever cold one riders in the lizardmen army were skinks.
I still have no idea why they decided to create the Sauria cavalry instead and pretend the skink cavalry didn’t exist. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484634.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484634.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Mr_Rose wrote:
strigops wrote:
The skins riders didn't exist in fantasy so no issue. Saurus.... most of them i'd say? hard to say with only a video, but a couple are clearly raising their arms to the side.

The first ever cold one riders in the lizardmen army were skinks.
I still have no idea why they decided to create the Sauria cavalry instead and pretend the skink cavalry didn’t exist.


Skink cav went dogs of war. Maybe it had something to do with it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484739.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484739.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 triplegrim wrote:
 Mr_Rose wrote:
strigops wrote:
The skins riders didn't exist in fantasy so no issue. Saurus.... most of them i'd say? hard to say with only a video, but a couple are clearly raising their arms to the side.

The first ever cold one riders in the lizardmen army were skinks.
I still have no idea why they decided to create the Sauria cavalry instead and pretend the skink cavalry didn’t exist.


Skink cav went dogs of war. Maybe it had something to do with it.


Skink cavalry did exist with Southland variants and such as something you could convert concurrently with the saurus cavalry. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484751.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484751.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484827.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11484827.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
This time is Grom, the Paunch as one of the first special character

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/02/01/40-years-of-warhammer-grom-the-paunch-munches-his-way-out-of-the-archives/?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=warhammer-40,000&utm_content=40-years-of-40k

Its silly, since they even mention Heinrich Kemmler in the foot notes...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11486969.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11486969.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11486999.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11486999.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
nightwolf2040 wrote:
I wonder if they will be doing 40 of there and on the 40th article announce the old world release date or buy? Like some weird advent calendar!


Hohum... 36 weeks from now gets us to october 10th, with the possibility of multiple models being shown in a week, which would of course move the end date nearer to now. September-October would allow for a Christmas release and ample time to build hype before that - if it's really the Old World remains to be seen, it could also be some sort of commemorative set or event.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11487006.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11487006.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. else think it's weird this Grom has a modern paintjob and a round base? Maybe heralding a future MTO?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11487036.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11487036.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 KidCthulhu wrote:
Anyone else think it's weird this Grom has a modern paintjob and a round base? Maybe heralding a future MTO?


New paintjob and base are from July 2018 Made-to-Order but I wouldn't be surprised of another round. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11487052.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11487052.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Tsagualsa wrote:
nightwolf2040 wrote:
I wonder if they will be doing 40 of there and on the 40th article announce the old world release date or buy? Like some weird advent calendar!


Hohum... 36 weeks from now gets us to october 10th, with the possibility of multiple models being shown in a week, which would of course move the end date nearer to now. September-October would allow for a Christmas release and ample time to build hype before that - if it's really the Old World remains to be seen, it could also be some sort of commemorative set or event.


It'll be nothing. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11487063.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11487063.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Sarouan wrote:
 RustyNumber wrote:
So can we tell from the new Lizardmen saurus and skink riders if they look like they're sculpted to be rank-friendly?


Unfortunately, they're totally not designed to be put on square bases for Warhammer Battle.
TBF, neither were half the WHFB kits by the end of it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11487089.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11487089.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. AoS are unlikely to double up for Old World.
2. Lustria isn't on the map that they're working on, so I can't help but imagine they're a long ways away from being done for Old World.
3. If you want to use AoS minis for Old World, get ready to be gatekept by all the returning warhammer fantasy grognards.
4. If that doesn't discourage you, do whatever you want, they're your models, but don't be surprised when the AoS models don't fit on the appropriate bases for Old World gaming.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11487092.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11487092.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11487094.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11487094.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. WHFB player, I would love to play WHFB again. I have already come to terms a long time ago that people will be using their round-based minis, and/ or 3D printed/AOS/ 3rd Party minis in the Old World games. I have allot of Warhammer models from 2nd ed to 6th ed, so i am going to be using my models allong side any new models that GW releases for the Old World. I am sure to see Lost Kingdoms' Tomb Kings, AoS Greenskins, 8th Ed Empire, 5th ed Dogs of War and an mix of 5th and 6th ed Dark Elves. The game and the competition is more valuable to me then the models that people use.

I have to say that i do hope that people put in the effort to properly base their models or create movement trays that are the proper size for the unit they are using for that unit. Your skirmishers can stay on round bases, and it would not affect the game very much.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11487097.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11487097.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
drbored wrote:

4. If that doesn't discourage you, do whatever you want, they're your models, but don't be surprised when the AoS models don't fit on the appropriate bases for Old World gaming.


Well we don't know the TOW base size. Could be 32mm square, 35mm square for infantry, 35x50 for cavalry etc. Nowhere does it say 20/25mm squares are only bases possible for infantry.

If base sizes were forever fixed there wouldn't have been 25mm squares either ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11487129.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11487129.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Yeah that might annoy some 'purists' out there, but the more people playing TOW and the more love it gets from players, the more support it recieves.

I'd be lying if I said I never used my Chaos Daemons on rounds in WHFB]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11487135.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11487135.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. AoS Armies who want to do this..]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11487151.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11487151.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
RazorEdge wrote:
It would more annoy people without interest in playing against people with AoS Armies who want to do this..


How so? I mean I understand why people may dislike if someone said "oh these Dark Elf Medusa snake people are wych elves" but they dont have a real analog unit to use as.

Meanwhile if someone rocked up with khorne daemon army, or Cities of sigmar on similar enough bases then hell yeah lets go.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11487211.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11487211.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
40 Years of Warhammer – Grom the Paunch Munches His Way Out of the Archives. Some consider this corpulent warlord to be the first true special character in Warhammer.* This super-sized goblin was a superb metal miniature, but many people first saw him as a cardboard cut-out in the starter set for the fourth edition of Warhammer Fantasy. He led many a horde of monopose goblin spearmen in two dimensions against the haughty High Elves of Ulthuan.

Didnt know he was in the starter set, though I've seen the cardboard model around.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/02/01/40-years-of-warhammer-grom-the-paunch-munches-his-way-out-of-the-archives/


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11487758.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11487758.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
RazorEdge wrote:
It would more annoy people without interest in playing against people with AoS Armies who want to do this..


How so? I mean I understand why people may dislike if someone said "oh these Dark Elf Medusa snake people are wych elves" but they dont have a real analog unit to use as.

Meanwhile if someone rocked up with khorne daemon army, or Cities of sigmar on similar enough bases then hell yeah lets go.


Besides the Bloodwrack Medusa - Medusa snake ladies - well there are the blood drinking Naga of Kuresh - - sorted ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11487780.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11487780.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/5640/782431.page]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11487797.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11487797.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
want to build up lizards again with the new models (but not sure if the new saurus will rank up well).

SF]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11487861.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11487861.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Overread wrote:
I think some want to remember that this is the official news thread not the chatter thread - the chatter thread is here:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/5640/782431.page


Thank you Overread.

To second this, I am getting incredibly irritated with having to clear out OT chat and spam from this thread. Warnings and suspensions are going to be happening from now on with increased severity. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488063.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488063.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/02/06/old-world-development-diary-walk-like-a-nehekharan-in-the-land-of-the-dead/]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488707.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488707.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488708.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488708.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Skellingtons in particular are easy pickings, as if the Khemrian stylings are a separate sprue, that’s yer Wet Dead Skellingtons in the bag too.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488709.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488709.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488714.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488714.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Plus its been long enough and the 2nd hand sale prices are nuts on TK models so there's no risk of existing models leaching sales from new ones. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488715.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488715.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Spesh as they only really need to redo Skellingtons, Horsey Skellingtons and port a couple of constructs to plakky.

Skellingtons in particular are easy pickings, as if the Khemrian stylings are a separate sprue, that’s yer Wet Dead Skellingtons in the bag too.

Don’t the wet dead already have skeleton kits with specific styling? Or has the Vampire Counts skeleton kit of yore been retired?

But related to the actual news, the TK have always been a personal favourite so I’m glad to see they won’t be forgotten again. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488717.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488717.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488718.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488718.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. GW is going to sell Tomb Kings kits again. I wonder if they'll be so bold as to sell the sucky old skeletons for new and improved 2020s prices.

 Overread wrote:
True the Undead had a lot of pretty modern kits when they were retired from sale. So there's a good few that can certainly come back with little to no work needed on them.

Plus its been long enough and the 2nd hand sale prices are nuts on TK models so there's no risk of existing models leaching sales from new ones.


I'd rather have the option to buy the old models than see them remain squatted, since the kits had some nice bits, but modern is not a term you should use in relation to even the newest bobblehead skeletons. Even at release ten years ago the skulls were so large that fleshy people could wear them as skull masks without looking off.

That's not something I want to see from the company that claims to make the best models in the world. But, I guess, The Old World is a side game and GW is cheap, so it's best to brace for that outcome.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488720.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488720.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. GW decides to bring old original skeleton warrios/horsemen/chariots for this relaunch. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488728.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488728.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Sotahullu wrote:
I would be very surprised if GW decides to bring old original skeleton warrios/horsemen/chariots for this relaunch.


Yep - you want to sell new stuff not have people just dust off old stuff.

Artwork is very nice.

Really hoping that they go for 6th ed style themed armies - vast amounts of lore to draw on from the Nagash trilogy alone, some undead Lizardmen for Rasetra, living nomads for Numas etc, Armoured chariots for K-Sabar etc]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488732.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488732.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
I'd love to get some real design insight on this project, because I'm not sure what to expect at this point. Did it balloon past the original concept, or was this in the cards all along?

At times its given the impression of a limited run Imperial civil war, and now it feels like they're going stuff everything back in. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488743.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488743.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Voss wrote:
Well, this is a bit of a shock.

I'd love to get some real design insight on this project, because I'm not sure what to expect at this point. Did it balloon past the original concept, or was this in the cards all along?

At times its given the impression of a limited run Imperial civil war, and now it feels like they're going stuff everything back in.


They've been talking about the old armies all (ish) being present for a long, long time, as well as introducing Kislev & Cathay. Since nearly the first updates. It doesn't sound to me like it's ballooned but who can say?

The focus might be slightly different; the latest article suggests we're not seeing anything geographically outside of the Old World continent itself for the immediate scope (so basically, the 'human' nations and immediate neighbours). High/Dark Elves for example will presumably be expeditionary forces and remnants of their old settlements for the former and raiders for the latter. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488750.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488750.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
JimmyWolf87 wrote:
They've been talking about the old armies all (ish) being present for a long, long time, as well as introducing Kislev & Cathay. Since nearly the first updates. It doesn't sound to me like it's ballooned but who can say?

The focus might be slightly different; the latest article suggests we're not seeing anything geographically outside of the Old World continent itself for the immediate scope (so basically, the 'human' nations and immediate neighbours). High/Dark Elves for example will presumably be expeditionary forces and remnants of their old settlements for the former and raiders for the latter.


Depends how you read it.
"Everyone's in and we've been thinking about faction specific rules and probable new models at or near the game's release date" is quite a balloon to "everyone's in because you'll get a 2-page ravening hordes style army list."

Admittedly, that might be a leap too far from what's in the article. But its sort of the implication, especially by picking Tomb Kings. If they'd gone with say Dark Elves, they could just stick square bases back in the kits and be largely done with it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488809.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488809.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Voss wrote:
Well, this is a bit of a shock.

I'd love to get some real design insight on this project, because I'm not sure what to expect at this point. Did it balloon past the original concept, or was this in the cards all along?

At times its given the impression of a limited run Imperial civil war, and now it feels like they're going stuff everything back in.


At no point did they say it would be limited to a small area of the setting and focus on certain factions.

Some of the first things we saw for it was entirely new Kislev stuff after all. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488827.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488827.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488835.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488835.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488839.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488839.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Tyel wrote:
JimmyWolf87 wrote:
They've been talking about the old armies all (ish) being present for a long, long time, as well as introducing Kislev & Cathay. Since nearly the first updates. It doesn't sound to me like it's ballooned but who can say?

The focus might be slightly different; the latest article suggests we're not seeing anything geographically outside of the Old World continent itself for the immediate scope (so basically, the 'human' nations and immediate neighbours). High/Dark Elves for example will presumably be expeditionary forces and remnants of their old settlements for the former and raiders for the latter.


Depends how you read it.
"Everyone's in and we've been thinking about faction specific rules and probable new models at or near the game's release date" is quite a balloon to "everyone's in because you'll get a 2-page ravening hordes style army list."

Admittedly, that might be a leap too far from what's in the article. But its sort of the implication, especially by picking Tomb Kings. If they'd gone with say Dark Elves, they could just stick square bases back in the kits and be largely done with it.


Some of the most balanced and fun gaming that anyone has ever had was during 6th Edition's start when all we had were the Ravening Hordes Army list. If that's how they do it, then I welcome it.



The continue actually being on topic, I really hope that what they said about doing monthly updates is true.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488842.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488842.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. TK are going to be re-released.

My personal take away from this article, is that the new game is definitely going to be heavily focused on the areas and armies of the old world only, and places like lustria will be largely ignored (At least until the game has either proven to be a sell out hit, or till they run out of old TK & Empire models to repackage). So for me the old world will still end up being just an easier way to pick up currently OOP kits for playing older editions, and of no real interest as a game. I've too many Lustrian models to just stick to the old world!

If the rumours are true (and we are looking at them just rereleasing kits as they were at the end of 8th Ed) I wonder how they will work the repacked old plastics. I'd be happy if we can get hold of basic units in battalion sets & heroes/monsters separately. But if they do release the 16 skeleton kit, are they going to push the price a lot higher to compensate that most of the AoS kits are being sold as 10 models these days? Or are they going to drop all the old 16 sets to only include 10 models and sell them at the AoS price point?

They seemed to have moved Zandri inland as well.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488850.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488850.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Mallo wrote:


They seemed to have moved Zandri inland as well.



They haven't, that's just a faction symbol. The actual city is still in the same place. You can see the pyramid by the Mortis Delta.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488864.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488864.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488867.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488867.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. fw hh heads have been lately, I hope these new ranges will largely be done in plastic. I don’t want to rely on fw for upgrade parts or special characters. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488868.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488868.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
I am very, very tired of hearing people using "chomping".

Yes, I was raised by a mother with a Masters in English.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488874.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488874.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488879.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488879.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Seems to be a full relaunch then. Khemri and Bretonnians, the elves, chaos, kislev. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488909.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488909.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 triplegrim wrote:
I like the artwork.

Seems to be a full relaunch then. Khemri and Bretonnians, the elves, chaos, kislev.


Dwarfs seem like a pretty safe bet as well, even if we haven't seen much about them yet.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488921.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488921.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488927.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488927.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
JSG wrote:
We've seen artwork for Boarboyz as well as a bunch of Empire stuff. All art looks like old kits so far.

Orks and Tomb Kings I am happy with staying the same - I was def hoping for some changes for the Empire.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488953.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488953.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. AoS Facebook
pages 751 and 951 likes and loves for a faction, which was discountinued. Empire only had 416.

After the Total War: Warhammer Tomb Kings trailer I can only say:

We do not serve! We Rule!

By the way do you guys think GW throw is a treat and release the unrealised Hierotitan for the the Tomb Kings?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488987.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488987.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. GW released metal units or even whole army via mail order.

I know it is an unpopular opinion, but some of the old models still hold up against some of the newer plastics and are clearly better than the fine cast models. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488997.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11488997.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489018.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489018.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489020.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489020.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Paymaster Games wrote:
I know this is just me, but i would not mind some of the older metals coming back and made to order like the Commissars. I think it would be fine if GW released metal units or even whole army via mail order.

I know it is an unpopular opinion, but some of the old models still hold up against some of the newer plastics and are clearly better than the fine cast models.


It can be different for everyone, but TK skeletons and skeletal horsemen do not fall into that category. They need new stuff. A TK shield (but not weapons) sprue on an even older general undead skeletons kit was never sufficient.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489023.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489023.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Out of date how?


Generally just being poor sculpts. People were waiting for half the core troops to be redone before WFB got squatted.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489024.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489024.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Paymaster Games wrote:
I know this is just me, but i would not mind some of the older metals coming back and made to order like the Commissars. I think it would be fine if GW released metal units or even whole army via mail order.

I know it is an unpopular opinion, but some of the old models still hold up against some of the newer plastics and are clearly better than the fine cast models.


I agree. There are good minis (and bad minis) from every period of Citadel's history. I'd love for them to bring back the good stuff as MTO.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489042.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489042.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
JSG wrote:
We've seen artwork for Boarboyz as well as a bunch of Empire stuff. All art looks like old kits so far.



yeah, this worry me a bit......]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489057.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489057.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
JSG wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Out of date how?


Generally just being poor sculpts. People were waiting for half the core troops to be redone before WFB got squatted.


So you'd rather have "dynamic" posed fidgety frailty that shatters the second you try to transport it?


Honestly the Core troops need to be less modular poseable kits and more like the monopose models of old with maybe switchable fronts. Think Chaos Warriors. That is a great way to give people who think armies need individual poses their option and the people learned and intelligent enough to know how regimented troops look and act on an actual battlefield can have a uniform looking and moving regiment.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489061.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489061.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Sacredroach wrote:
While I appreciate the update concerning an older army I actually have painted...my favorite part of the entire article was the correct usage of "champing at the bit."

I am very, very tired of hearing people using "chomping".

Yes, I was raised by a mother with a Masters in English.

Did she fail to teach you that language is flexible and evolutive?

Or that champing and chomping are synonyms? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489073.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489073.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Dread Master wrote:
Man I hope they don’t rerelease old kits alongside new stuff. The old stuff is seriously out of date now. I hope this is all new from the ground up as far as releases. Let folks use their old armies for sure, but let’s move forward with new kits.



If they don't use old kits then that limits seriously how much they put out at first. Even 6 armies all new wouldn't be realistic. Look at hh which is getting lots of plastic sku's yet nowhere near enough. And that's 3rd main game.

We are back to empire civil war with rest lot later(maybe army a year, 2 if lucky)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489081.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489081.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489083.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489083.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Out of date how?

basically the design, Tomb Kings saw a big design shift between 5th and 8th and in addition there was a change to the frame layout

selling 5th Edition Skeletons with a 6th Edition upgrade along with 8th Edition elite units did not turn out well 10 years ago and it won't be better now

we have seen many times before that armies sell best with a consistent design, (just imagine the Dark Eldar back than would get new vehicles and monsters but the core infantry would have stayed the same)

 Just Tony wrote:
So you'd rather have "dynamic" posed fidgety frailty that shatters the second you try to transport it?
and this is one reason why the old Skeletons need to be replaced, those were the ones that broke if you look at them from the wrong side

the problem was not that the kit was modular but that it was just bones with individual parts
Chaos Warriors war bad as well but in the other direction

as kits from the old times, Chaos Marauders were good, modular but sturdy]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489085.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489085.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. GW to put out multiple armies on sale(rather than just provide you army list if you happen to have old models) that would be most likely route.

Though paying current prices for old models would sting.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489086.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489086.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
Spoiler:




release those again for current "cheap" prices of 36€ per Box and you will know instantly why Warhammer died in the first place


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489087.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489087.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
It was still making profit(or GW were idiots if top-3 selling miniature games were not making profit. Where were they spending sale profits?)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489088.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489088.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
They said at the beginning that they will completly rework the Miniatures Ranges.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489089.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489089.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
tneva82 wrote:
Not making as much as marines made.
It was still making profit(or GW were idiots if top-3 selling miniature games were not making profit. Where were they spending sale profits?)
which has nothing to do with what was written above

the "buy in" is during the Army Book release, which GW has shown with numbers during the CH trial (with the only exception being the vanilla Marine box as this one sold with each Marine Codex and not just the vanilla one and this is were the "not as much as Marines" comes from)

but this means, if the Army is not attractive as a whole to get people to buy a new one during book release, it won't sell
existing players buying some of the new kits or new players buying in later when new kits come out are not enough

there is a reason why we see new AoS factions being "complete" and new model releases are with a new book

so if they re-release old armies with the same sales strategy that made them sell bad in the first place it won't work out well
(rather worse, as no one is going to pay the GW price for those core units if they can get better for less and unlike during 8th the market is full of cheaper alternatives for Tomb Kings now)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489093.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489093.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489102.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489102.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Just Tony wrote:
JSG wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Out of date how?


Generally just being poor sculpts. People were waiting for half the core troops to be redone before WFB got squatted.


So you'd rather have "dynamic" posed fidgety frailty that shatters the second you try to transport it?


Honestly the Core troops need to be less modular poseable kits and more like the monopose models of old with maybe switchable fronts. Think Chaos Warriors. That is a great way to give people who think armies need individual poses their option and the people learned and intelligent enough to know how regimented troops look and act on an actual battlefield can have a uniform looking and moving regiment.


Take a look at the recent middle earth boxes. Loads of new plastic fighters in monopose just-ad-arm style. I think we will see something similar for TOW.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489109.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489109.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Out of date how?


Have a look at this one:



I don't think that's an army GW of today could sell. Even with a better paintjob than I could manage fifteen years ago the models have numerous issues in sculpting quality that customers used to modern GW kits would not likely put up with.

The Casket is probably among the models that held up the best with the details not as crisp as they could be. It also has going for it that it's devoid of swirly crap.

The Bone Giant is converted to look more like the artwork in the army book not just because it looks cool but because the stock version has a silly dancing pose. As sold it's not a very enticing model. It is fairly large though, and detail quality holds up because of it.

The Tomb Scorpions aren't too terrible as far as the beasties go, but the embedded priests have poor detail.

The plastic Skeleton Warriors and Archers are models that were bad in the 90s when they were still fresh, and use an upgrade sprue to give them bows and shields that's not much better. Notably you only get one khopesh for every four models, so a unit equipped as the skeleton in the latest artwork is just not going to happen. Never mind the general size and quality of the weapon sculpts.

Tomb Guard are of moderate quality. Stylistically they're not bad, but the sculpts let them down a bit with too little wrapping (that's not particularly well done at that), casting compromises because of single piece metal bodies (plus separate shield) and a little softer detail than modern plastic is capable of.

The characters have much the same sculpting issues and the swarms do not compare to the decorative scarabs from the sphinx kit for instance.

Tomb Kings had some good metal sculpts twenty years ago when many plastic sculpts were still bulky and unrefined, with some shallow and soft detail. They compared favorably to what was around at the time, but they certainly didn't age well.

And because that's not enough, you have warriors from the 90s that look more like a mercenary regiment than a state funded standing army because the upgrade sprues don't bring their weapon style in line with the rest of the army, a bulk of metal support units from the 00s that have a certain sculpting style that isn't particularly close to the plastic skeletons, and the additions of the 10s that introduced a significantly altered style for Tomb Guard, embiggened models and crisper bobbleheads that tie them in with the plastic skeletons but not the finer heads of metal models. Tomb Kings as they were sold before they were squatted are a considerable mismatch both stylistically and in sculpting and casting quality.

I've said it before, but I just don't see how GW could successfully sell that army for The Old World. You can make a similar case for other armies as well that suffered from incremental model updates, if they got any at all, and GW's refusal to keep Core models up to date that you have to have in your army. And then you look at a gap of almost a decade since Fantasy got exploded and army updates stopped for good and have all the new 40k and AoS sculpts that set a higher bar for sculpting quality, and bringing back old, very much out of date sculpts just doesn't seem like a viable idea.

I'm still curious how GW is planning to tackle that problem. Common sense says that The Old World is too much of an unknown to have the same resources thrown at it as even Horus Heresy, but common sense also says that simply selling old models for new prices isn't going to make the game successful.

So when the latest article says...

The supreme monarch of Nehekhara and the other Tomb Kings are going to be major players in the stories we will tell in Warhammer: the Old World, and it has been wonderful to come back to them after all these years. They’re not technically denizens of the Old World, but their invasions play a key part in the narrative at this time during the history of the setting.


... it implies that GW wants to put the faction in the spotlight to incentivize model sales rather then putting out an index army list or whatever and just giving players with old armies narrative hooks without any intention for model support. If they want to sell models, they need models that sell or else the whole exercise is in vain.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489133.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489133.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Geifer wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Out of date how?



I've said it before, but I just don't see how GW could successfully sell that army for The Old World. You can make a similar case for other armies as well that suffered from incremental model updates, if they got any at all, and GW's refusal to keep Core models up to date that you have to have in your army. And then you look at a gap of almost a decade since Fantasy got exploded and army updates stopped for good and have all the new 40k and AoS sculpts that set a higher bar for sculpting quality, and bringing back old, very much out of date sculpts just doesn't seem like a viable idea.

I'm still curious how GW is planning to tackle that problem. Common sense says that The Old World is too much of an unknown to have the same resources thrown at it as even Horus Heresy, but common sense also says that simply selling old models for new prices isn't going to make the game successful.



We also still don't know how their sales model is going to look, what sort of army sizes they envision, and who, and in what medium, is going to produce these units. If the metal models are going to be ported to e.g. Forgeworld resin that is gonna bring a lot of other issues into the mix, like warping, casting errors and all sorts of problems in handling the models in general. And of course the price is a considerable unknown factor - selling old models with new prices would be bad enough, but selling special units at forgeworld prices would make the game basically outright unaffordable if you were set on buying from GW instead of picking up a whole army on the secondary/alternative market.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489136.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489136.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. GW tease TOW, the more ambivilent I become. They're not the same company that they were during Fantasy's prime, and I really don't trust them enough to make an agreeable rank&file regimented game without sticking all sorts of gak on top. If GW release sensible boxes at a sensible price point, a regiment per box, it will be a real shock for me. I don't necessarily want big blocks of infantry any more, three ranks of eight is enough, but I want TOW to sit in the right price point. I can see this going south very quickly. :(]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489146.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489146.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Unlike Necromunda and AT, when WHFB was mothballed, it had a pretty wide range of units in existence. Whilst I can’t speak for metal or Finecast moulds, I think we can reasonably say the plastic moulds, stored properly, just need a dust off and away you go.

Some from a launch point of view, there’s far, far less that needs doing. In a pinch, they could arguably release No New Kits At All.

I very much doubt they would of course. As I think I’ve said before in this thread? I’m expecting a combination of old kits returning, and a few Tent Pole Attention Grabbers.

For Empire? Imperial Knignts and a War Wagon are both low hanging fruit in terms of Shiny News. Great swords, Soldiery etc remain relatively modern, and whilst they have their detractors don’t need their aesthetic modernised.

Khemri? Well they could get away with new Skellingtons, Cavalry, Chariots, Ushabti and Tomb Scorpions. That’s 5 kits, which is a fairly modest release by GW’s standards.

And with a decent range of plastic kits in existence, just OOP? I don’t see why New Stuff would be punted to resin. Yes FW normally does resin, but times have moved on. With the size of their factor, and (I think) in-house tooling? The need for resin for non-character “we’re going to sell a lot of these” type kits is greatly reduced.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489147.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489147.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Tent Pole Attention Grabbers.


With the time shift i'd wager that their initial plan is something like releasing the basic troops in old plastic, e.g. as they were at the time of the great mothballing, and use the characters and special characters as Tentpoles - they do not need to conform to the limits of rank&file as strictly as mainline regiments, they can be done very characterfully with comparatively low investments for new sculpts, they can easily be done in resin, and they can give a whole range a visual theme if you do upgrade packs for the old regiments with style elements you pick up and turn to 11 in the Special characters. Have e.g. Marienburgers with some puffed sleeves, feathered hats and jewellery, and have their Empress run around like a full-blown 17th century dutch noblewoman. Thus, their first couple of years could rest upon the cornerstone of the old plastic regiments and focus on timeline-specific characters in resin, nice upgrade packs in the style of HH Legion kits, and the odd monster, war machine or special unit to flesh out the ranges.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489148.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489148.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
And this does sort of bleed into Sigmar releases. For example for High Elves, while they may have silly names - the Lumineth Wardens and Dawnriders are amazing models. Would I want to go "go back" to the frankly ancient 6th edition Spearmen and Silver Helms? Not really no. I may not have minded those kits so much 10-15 years ago - but they look decidedly poor today.

Certainly the idea of calling Greatswords (2009), Soldiery (what, State Troops - 2007?) "relatively modern" is just crazy to me. Relatively modern compared to what? That mostly metal army you put together in the mid-90s? The world has moved on somewhat.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489150.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489150.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. WHFB range.

Whilst I know not everyone like the Soldiery in particular, it’s a solid kit, with a decent number of options.

It already exists, likely in steel mould form, and comfortably does the job intended of it.

And at relaunch, you’re relying on folks dusting off their new armies, and buying a few bits here and there rather than a wave of Entirely New Armies being bought.

Re-done Soldiery isn’t the same as a New War Wagon or Updated Knights.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489155.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489155.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Just Tony wrote:
JSG wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Out of date how?


Generally just being poor sculpts. People were waiting for half the core troops to be redone before WFB got squatted.


So you'd rather have "dynamic" posed fidgety frailty that shatters the second you try to transport it?


Honestly the Core troops need to be less modular poseable kits and more like the monopose models of old with maybe switchable fronts. Think Chaos Warriors. That is a great way to give people who think armies need individual poses their option and the people learned and intelligent enough to know how regimented troops look and act on an actual battlefield can have a uniform looking and moving regiment.


No that's just a conversation you're having with yourself. Many of the old core troops just looked like ass. No one wanted the HE spearmen, archers or silverhelms for example and if they were to be redone to an Island of Blood standard that would be perfect.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489161.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489161.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489212.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489212.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Just Tony wrote:
I'm amazed at how conditioned most of the player base is at rebuying things they've already got. Pavlov would be proud.


Personally it's more a case of wanting to buy things for the first time that are no longer in active production. Much as ol' GW's pricing can be extortionate or baffling (or both) at times, it's still generally better than second hand. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489218.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489218.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And at relaunch, you’re relying on folks dusting off their new armies, and buying a few bits here and there rather than a wave of Entirely New Armies being bought.

Re-done Soldiery isn’t the same as a New War Wagon or Updated Knights.


I just disagree. GW will want to sell whole new armies - not only at launch, but in the years to come.
I can't imagine the level of ridicule and anti-hype if the big Old World Starter is revealed to include say 2-4 boxes of 2007 era State Troops. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489219.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489219.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
I certainly wouldn't buy a box of breton knights or kehmri chariots because those are absolutely core to their factions and desperately need a rework by modern standards. I would buy the peasant box or the snake riders though, if the former were to get an overhaul.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489223.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489223.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Just Tony wrote:
I'm amazed at how conditioned most of the player base is at rebuying things they've already got. Pavlov would be proud.



You mean buying new models with new sculpts and poses and details and refinements?
Or adding to existing collections with the same models
Or getting new models and building them to a higher standard after 10years of hobbying (at the very least).


I mean yeah of course many are going to choose to upgrade, model building and painting is PART of the hobby. Otherwise we'd be using square bits of cardboard on the table. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489240.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489240.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Just Tony wrote:
I'm amazed at how conditioned most of the player base is at rebuying things they've already got. Pavlov would be proud.


I have the feeling that some of these players ditched their armies soon after 8th edition went belly up and now has to rebuild.

While there will be some new plastic kits, they will not be many to start. New Plastic kits are expensive to make compared to metal and resin kits. I would expect a full re-release of several plastic kits for nearly every line, with one or two kits new plastic kits for new units or center pieces, like the War Wagon. To make everything available from the start, i would not be surprised if metal or, gods forbid, finecast models be made available via mail order because of how cheap it is to run these models.

As to completely new models for whole armies, other than the new armies of Kislev and Cathey, i do not see this happening at all. Mostly because they have not done this with AoS, Cities of Sigmar, Lizardmen, Chaos, and Greenkins still use allot of the old kits. Expectations on new models needs to tempered.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489243.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489243.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Paymaster Games wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
I'm amazed at how conditioned most of the player base is at rebuying things they've already got. Pavlov would be proud.


I have the feeling that some of these players ditched their armies soon after 8th edition went belly up and now has to rebuild.

While there will be some new plastic kits, they will not be many to start. New Plastic kits are expensive to make compared to metal and resin kits. I would expect a full re-release of several plastic kits for nearly every line, with one or two kits new plastic kits for new units or center pieces, like the War Wagon. To make everything available from the start, i would not be surprised if metal or, gods forbid, finecast models be made available via mail order because of how cheap it is to run these models.

As to completely new models for whole armies, other than the new armies of Kislev and Cathey, i do not see this happening at all. Mostly because they have not done this with AoS, Cities of Sigmar, Lizardmen, Chaos, and Greenkins still use allot of the old kits. Expectations on new models needs to tempered.


I think we really do need to know what GW wants and thinks for the game, I could see a small 3 kits per army release for a lot at the start being enough if done well.
Heroes themselves can be in the kits, then sell some extra resin ones as well. And rerelease some of the standout kits, and a special run for some other ones for each army.
Do the first campaign book for games 500 to 1000, and write the rules so in small games units of minimum size are viable and people can buy into it at reasonable prices and not get stuck starting with a massive army all at once.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489274.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489274.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Just Tony wrote:
I'm amazed at how conditioned most of the player base is at rebuying things they've already got. Pavlov would be proud.

For me, it's not so much buying things I've already got but the opportunity to grab kits I didn't get (and kicked myself for missing out on).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489280.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489280.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. But honestly, there is no way I will start a new army. I wont be fooled by nostalgia. I know how tedious it is to build up 100+ spearmen to access fun units, and the frustration of trying to manouver them correctly, and the anger when you realise your cavalry is basicly spearmen that take up to much space. And then the foot of Mork thrash half your sword masters unit in one stomp.
Love the setting, hate the game.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489307.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489307.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
I mean, WFB was 'more fun' in earlier editions - pre the push to massive units and game breaking magic...

Now that doesn't mean GW will "get it right" this time either, but hope remains!

(For now...)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489318.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489318.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489322.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489322.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489325.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489325.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489343.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489343.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489362.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489362.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
1. Close as possible to classic 6th to 8th edition design
2. Made out of plastic meterial, I dislike to work with resin.

Game wise should be fun and easy to pick up and could have a flavor of wackyness ( like animosity, ancestral grudge, crumvling ), while it should have some amount of complexity.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489374.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489374.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
To me, Kings of War really has a lot going for it....except model design. Also, ASOIAF scratches the need for more complexity. If GW was looking for a place to find a happy medium I think between those two games would be great. They will wind up rehashing the old world just to take us old players out behind the wood-shed and put us out of our misery.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489382.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489382.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
So far personally I liked what I've seen. It's been all fluff to this point of course but it feels more grounded in reality than the mortal realms.

What's interesting to me is this article hints at rules/rule design for the undead. First time I've seen it mentioned at all in the preview articles (focused on the fluff) and of course they don't give us any substance with it, but clearly they are designing the minis/rules/fluff concurrently. Wouldn't surprise me if they just kept spoon feeding us fluff updates for the rest of 2023 and started revealing ideas on the rule system next year.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489383.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489383.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489389.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489389.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Maybe they are closer to a release than we thought, if they have spell references to name drop… ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489393.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489393.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Mr_Rose wrote:
So, to get closer to the actual news/article again, did anyone else notice that they seem to refer to an actual spell/ability by name there?
Maybe they are closer to a release than we thought, if they have spell references to name drop…
They also talk about rules and balance - which suggests that they have got quite far.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489396.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489396.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Tyel wrote:They could just chuck square bases back in the old kits that got round bases however many years back


I have a feeling that if they're rebooting things after X years, they should go 25mm for all infantry.

And this does sort of bleed into Sigmar releases. For example for High Elves, while they may have silly names - the Lumineth Wardens and Dawnriders are amazing models. Would I want to go "go back" to the frankly ancient 6th edition Spearmen and Silver Helms? Not really no. I may not have minded those kits so much 10-15 years ago - but they look decidedly poor today.


I would love to finally get updated, modern, properly-Ulthuan spearmen and archers, but it feels like a pipe dream after all this time.

Fayric wrote:I really like The Old World setting and follow this project with great interrest.
But honestly, there is no way I will start a new army. I wont be fooled by nostalgia. I know how tedious it is to build up 100+ spearmen to access fun units


I would love to finally get updated, modern, properly-Ulthuan spearmen and archers for Dragon Rampant. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489410.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489410.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. WHFB surely has already moved on to playing one of the several different rank n' flank games that are currently out there, and they just keep the (awesome) Warhammer fiction alive.

Same thing with Mordheim. Tons of fans either still just play the old game, or use different company's rulesets with the OG game setting.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think nostalgia is going to be enough to being me back to GW on this.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489448.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489448.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. TK inspired Legions of Nagash force.
The interest I would say is definitely there it just needs to be capitalised on before TWWH passes out of current game status.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489483.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489483.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
It's just not economically reasonable to expect 30 model units to be the minimum and something upwards of 40 or 50 to be 'combat effective'.

Edit: I can paint 40-50 models and have an entire or close to entire 40k army, by comparison.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489484.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489484.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Ignispacium wrote:
Total War: Warhammer certainly helped the popularity of the setting. My principal concern is the size of armies/regiments and the functional size of game that the rules are designed for. In order for me to buy in on this I'd really want for unit sizes to be significantly smaller, and the game to be functional at smaller point totals. Ideally I'd like to be able to actually play a normal length, enjoyable game with the contents of an average starter box without it sort of falling apart mechanically. Now, if that could be accomplished with the game scaling well up to 2,000+ point armies as well, that'd be something that would interest me.

It's just not economically reasonable to expect 30 model units to be the minimum and something upwards of 40 or 50 to be 'combat effective'.

Edit: I can paint 40-50 models and have an entire or close to entire 40k army, by comparison.


And yet if you run a Tyranid, Ork or Imperial Guard infantry heavy army you're no way near done for 2K points with 40models.

So big model counts do work.
The problem Old World had before was a few things

1) The game didn't "work" well until you hit at least 1.5K points for most armies. With many of them being totally broken below 1K points and the game not even really working or being all that engaging at, say, 500points.

2) As the game dwindled in popularity the number of people remaining were those more heavily invested. So they had a 2K army and wanted to use a 2K army and the games you saw would all be 2K armies etc... So newbies had a huge hill to climb to join that 2K group (or at least hit the 1.5K group).

3) GW did go overboard with numbers. Skaven are a fantastic example of taking the idea and going just too far. You needed legions of slaves for many ideal forces; which were mostly on the table to die ,but required huge numbers.



Now you can address these problems without removing big infantry blocks; in fact we've seen GW do it twice with AoS and 40K
They've marketed, for both, smaller scale skirmish games under their own rules and under their own marketing. Yes Killteam has been around for decades, but right now its not just a page in the book, its got its own book; its own starter sets; its own marketing; game leagues and all. Same for Warcry and Underworlds in AoS.
All 3 of those are ways to get people into the game with really small model counts. Heck all of them have a "1 box army" approach to marketing. You can expand from that, but 1 standard infantry box gets you going - 5 models for Underworld - perhaps 10 or so for Warcry and Killteam.

They've scaled elements of the core rules for different point values. Not huge changes, but they've made adjustments to 1K, 1.5K and 2K systems to try and make the games work better. IT also helps that functionally both 40K and AoS are "skirmish movement" style games rather than big block styles.

The final point is just getting an active playerbase, engaging and growing it and marketing the games. Focusing attention on them to keep them hot, current and played.



When you step back you can also see that as most wargames mature they scale up in model count. The armies we play with today are VAST compared to what they were 20 years ago in 40K. Longer term customers buy more models; longer term games introduce more models and niches and players want to use them; they want to see their stuff on the table. So army size often creeps up. Warmachine did it; Dystopian Wars is slowly doing it; 40K did it, AoS interestingly has gone backward this edition as GW came down insanely hard on big infantry blocks; but I think part of that is AoS being newer and also several armies being very tiny compared to others which are huge so in part some forces are just "spam 1 model" types (eg flesheaters). So there's good reason for GW to push back a bit against growth and curtail it for a time to let the game steady itself and then push for more later.




But in general Old World is also going to be another 30K; so GW is already thinking of it as a niche. A big infantry block niche to fill. If it takes off in a huge way then model counts weren't a concern; if it only grows so big and doesn't any more then perhaps that's one component of the issues it might face ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489489.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489489.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
JimmyWolf87 wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
I'm amazed at how conditioned most of the player base is at rebuying things they've already got. Pavlov would be proud.


Personally it's more a case of wanting to buy things for the first time that are no longer in active production. Much as ol' GW's pricing can be extortionate or baffling (or both) at times, it's still generally better than second hand.


And there's a difference between the expectation of simply putting kits back into production and redesigning and tooling up molds for 16 factions or so to launch a game. The general GW customer mindset nowadays would be the latter.

Overread wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
I'm amazed at how conditioned most of the player base is at rebuying things they've already got. Pavlov would be proud.



You mean buying new models with new sculpts and poses and details and refinements?
Or adding to existing collections with the same models
Or getting new models and building them to a higher standard after 10years of hobbying (at the very least).


I mean yeah of course many are going to choose to upgrade, model building and painting is PART of the hobby. Otherwise we'd be using square bits of cardboard on the table.


Why is all that mutually exclusive? Them rereleasing older models so people who weren't around to get them the first time can start an army doesn't conflict with making new units for existing armies or what I will assume will be Cathay and Kislev forces out the gate.

My deal is that my armies have monopose WHQ/Talisman/4th Ed. plastic models in them, and once painted up don't stick out NEARLY as much as the "NeW mOdElS eVeRy SiX mOnThS!!!!!1!!!!@!!!" crowd would have you believe. Basically it's the iPhone marketing mentality at work here. Replace your essentially brand-new thing with this brand-newer thing that is only marginally different but new.



And why does everyone rule out the possibility that people may actually get a second/third/tenth army during this time?

Paymaster Games wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
I'm amazed at how conditioned most of the player base is at rebuying things they've already got. Pavlov would be proud.


I have the feeling that some of these players ditched their armies soon after 8th edition went belly up and now has to rebuild.

While there will be some new plastic kits, they will not be many to start. New Plastic kits are expensive to make compared to metal and resin kits. I would expect a full re-release of several plastic kits for nearly every line, with one or two kits new plastic kits for new units or center pieces, like the War Wagon. To make everything available from the start, i would not be surprised if metal or, gods forbid, finecast models be made available via mail order because of how cheap it is to run these models.

As to completely new models for whole armies, other than the new armies of Kislev and Cathey, i do not see this happening at all. Mostly because they have not done this with AoS, Cities of Sigmar, Lizardmen, Chaos, and Greenkins still use allot of the old kits. Expectations on new models needs to tempered.


Some probably purged. Others, like my niece and some of the posters at classichammer are new players brought in by TW:WH or exposure to the fiction. They'll be starting from scratch as well, and basically reissuing the old Battalion sets would be the simplest way to go.

KidCthulhu wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
I'm amazed at how conditioned most of the player base is at rebuying things they've already got. Pavlov would be proud.

For me, it's not so much buying things I've already got but the opportunity to grab kits I didn't get (and kicked myself for missing out on).


You and me both. You already know I intend to build one of each WFB army, so this would facilitate it without me scouring the aftermarket.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489502.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489502.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Overread wrote:
1) The game didn't "work" well until you hit at least 1.5K points for most armies. With many of them being totally broken below 1K points and the game not even really working or being all that engaging at, say, 500points.

2) As the game dwindled in popularity the number of people remaining were those more heavily invested. So they had a 2K army and wanted to use a 2K army and the games you saw would all be 2K armies etc... So newbies had a huge hill to climb to join that 2K group (or at least hit the 1.5K group).

3) GW did go overboard with numbers. Skaven are a fantastic example of taking the idea and going just too far. You needed legions of slaves for many ideal forces; which were mostly on the table to die ,but required huge numbers.


I feel the game "didn't work" at say 1k points if you can bring a 250~ point rare monster that is functionally unkillable by a bunch of smallish unspecialised units. Or - perhaps even worse and you can do this with anything - you can have a 500+ point death star that likewise will just walk around the table being invincible. Especially in 8th where you potentially charge it, only for it to fight first and insta-gib your unit.

I feel the answer, which might hurt purists, is in the rules.
Don't facilitate deathstars - have size caps to units. You don't need to allow people to take bricks of 40 White Lions/Grave Guard etc - or even 100 goblins/skaven slaves as 8th edition sort of encouraged. Likewise, having more concretely defined what a unit can look like, you can take a more balanced view on the relative power of monsters and characters (and 6th-8th edition balancing was all over the place because GW never did balance passes back then). At the same time however, I don't think you want to encourage a reversion to 6th-7th Cavalry hammer. I think blocks of infantry should be the "core" of the game. Unsupported Cavalry and Monsters breaking such should be the exception rather than the rule. So I'd keep step up but return to charges striking first. You can then look at Magic without having to factor it as "the counter" to inevitable death stars etc.

There's probably an argument on points to do what's happened in 40k. I.E. bring up the points of cheap models. Goblins/Skaven don't need to be 2-3 points a model, to the point where you can bring hundreds in a 1.5-2k point game. I've got 200+ night goblins at home, so I can sort of relate. But I have no idea how I found the time to paint them all those years ago, its not something I'd ever contemplate doing today.

With these changes Timmy won't walk into a shop and be told he "needs" 40 Halberdiers and 3-4 characters to serve as the base of an Empire army he though might be cool. Which unsurprisingly prompts "that's too much, I'll buy a box of space marines instead."

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489568.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489568.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. IIRC in 8th there was a hard counter to deathstars, the magic system

the irony of many event packs mucking with the magic system as it was "overpowered" (and be honest, it was broken to heck), but then having to put in all sorts of other rules as a result

I found the game, if you actually played what was provided worked ok - the point on needing about 2k before it worked well is well made though]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489572.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489572.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Tyel wrote:
 Overread wrote:
1) The game didn't "work" well until you hit at least 1.5K points for most armies. With many of them being totally broken below 1K points and the game not even really working or being all that engaging at, say, 500points.

2) As the game dwindled in popularity the number of people remaining were those more heavily invested. So they had a 2K army and wanted to use a 2K army and the games you saw would all be 2K armies etc... So newbies had a huge hill to climb to join that 2K group (or at least hit the 1.5K group).

3) GW did go overboard with numbers. Skaven are a fantastic example of taking the idea and going just too far. You needed legions of slaves for many ideal forces; which were mostly on the table to die ,but required huge numbers.


I feel the game "didn't work" at say 1k points if you can bring a 250~ point rare monster that is functionally unkillable by a bunch of smallish unspecialised units. Or - perhaps even worse and you can do this with anything - you can have a 500+ point death star that likewise will just walk around the table being invincible. Especially in 8th where you potentially charge it, only for it to fight first and insta-gib your unit.

I feel the answer, which might hurt purists, is in the rules.
Don't facilitate deathstars - have size caps to units. You don't need to allow people to take bricks of 40 White Lions/Grave Guard etc - or even 100 goblins/skaven slaves as 8th edition sort of encouraged. Likewise, having more concretely defined what a unit can look like, you can take a more balanced view on the relative power of monsters and characters (and 6th-8th edition balancing was all over the place because GW never did balance passes back then). At the same time however, I don't think you want to encourage a reversion to 6th-7th Cavalry hammer. I think blocks of infantry should be the "core" of the game. Unsupported Cavalry and Monsters breaking such should be the exception rather than the rule. So I'd keep step up but return to charges striking first. You can then look at Magic without having to factor it as "the counter" to inevitable death stars etc.

There's probably an argument on points to do what's happened in 40k. I.E. bring up the points of cheap models. Goblins/Skaven don't need to be 2-3 points a model, to the point where you can bring hundreds in a 1.5-2k point game. I've got 200+ night goblins at home, so I can sort of relate. But I have no idea how I found the time to paint them all those years ago, its not something I'd ever contemplate doing today.

With these changes Timmy won't walk into a shop and be told he "needs" 40 Halberdiers and 3-4 characters to serve as the base of an Empire army he though might be cool. Which unsurprisingly prompts "that's too much, I'll buy a box of space marines instead."

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.


Agre with a lot of this - have some TW style rock/paper/scossors gameplay - so spear (and similar weapons)s are "anti-cavalry/large" - in reality charging cav into a spear formation, if you could even get the horse to even do it was a a bad idea - now yes we have dinsoaurs and boars in Warhammer as mounts but still applies to a certain degree. same thing with anti-infantry, armour piercing etc. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489590.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489590.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489596.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489596.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
leopard wrote:
whatever they do removing "I won in the list building phase" is a must


Yes and no

I think the key is that any game with army building is going to have an aspect of understanding how the game works and how to build a working army within that game. If you just spam all 1 unit on the table it might win because of min-max but it might also lose because it lacks a lot of tools and options that a more comprehensive list brings.

So basically I think that list building should always be important



AT the same time I agree that the game balance should ideally be where tweaking the list brings minor advantage not major advantage. So when you put a good and a decent list down against each other the difference in mathematical performance is minor. You gain little advantages here and there and the REAL test is how you use it on the table. The player's choices, actions and contribution to the game.
This is something that escapes GW entirely balance wise. GW tends to lean toward powerful cinematic combos (either intentionally or by missing them entirely during design). Then countering that with either tougher units, more units or making even more powerful combos against it. The result is an arms race codex to codex which fails because we only get 1 codex per edition typically (sometimes two but its rare). So you only get 1 arms race per faction.

There are also those who defend this because they like the idea of finding the "I win" list. Or (often) copying it from online. They like the idea that they can buy the BEST army and win. They dislike the idea of minor power variation because to them that means they don't have an I win button to press. They don't have a simple single list to use; they don't have a clear way to victory.




I liken it to Magic the Gathering which 100% has very insane power variations between decks. MTG gets away with this in part because
1) Matches are fast. You can complete several games of MTG in the time it takes to just setup a 40K game.
2) The rules are tight. Yes the combos are insane, but the underlaying rules are generally very straight forward and tightly put together and they are regularly revised to that standard.
3) The cards cost nothing to make function. You open the pack and the card works - you don't have to clean it, build it, prime it, paint it.

If you try and bring all that into a wargame it fails because many people only have one or two armies; they don't want to build the newest power army and they can't even afford it - not just in money but in time as well.
So they have their army and if GW makes their army perform badly mathematically and makes another army perform WAY better mathematically, then that's a power struggle the player cannot overcome. It takes the player out of the equation and makes the list building the most important aspect. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489598.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489598.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
yes you need a chance to make a mistake but far too often it was basically "ha ha you lose"

comes down to stuff needing to be able to be closer in lethality or more rock-paper-scissors where everything has a weakness every faction can exploit - rewarding a flexible army ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489600.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489600.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
That being said, my experience in that 5th ed+ era was also that armies often won not only at list building, but at army set up. Set up a unit in a bad spot, or your army, and you lost. Reforming an army line was not something that was easy to do.

I actually enjoyed AoS when it first came out with my Brets, the unit sizes felt good, the army "flowed" as a cavalry army would, without the 'must be in a wedge or box formation' and we played many thematic battles (against my friend's orcs).

So I'd be happy with something more along the lines of AsoIaF style movement and play, being able to move units, and redeploy, without all of the gotcha stuff that sideboards, special characters with abilities, strategems, CCG like mechanics, and other nonsense brings.

Heck, even bringing some of the ideas and implementations from Warhammer Historical (countercharges, etc.) wouldn't be out of place, they'd just have to figure out how to balance the magical and monster elements.

All that being said, I'd also likely play with whatever base rules (hopefully a Ravening Hordes style army list) because GW won't be able to keep my attention with whatever comes out after. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489614.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489614.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. really didn't like about WHFB was how the safest place for a character to stand was generally alongside an enemy unit where they were impossible to charge]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489616.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489616.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489677.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489677.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Overread wrote:
IT also helps that functionally both 40K and AoS are "skirmish movement" style games rather than big block styles.


This would help in larger games?

But in general Old World is also going to be another 30K; so GW is already thinking of it as a niche.


Honestly that might be to it's advantage, in a way. Less reliance on it being a big moneyspinner might mean less foisting of rules churn and built-in imbalance on it.

Tyel wrote:Don't facilitate deathstars - have size caps to units. You don't need to allow people to take bricks of 40 White Lions/Grave Guard etc - or even 100 goblins/skaven slaves as 8th edition sort of encouraged.


Scratch the 25mm bases - every unit on a 100mm square.

Mr Morden wrote:Agre with a lot of this - have some TW style rock/paper/scossors gameplay - so spear (and similar weapons)s are "anti-cavalry/large"


This is every other rank 'n' flank game. Did WFB end up with nothing like that, at the end?
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489708.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489708.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Vermis wrote:
Overread wrote:
IT also helps that functionally both 40K and AoS are "skirmish movement" style games rather than big block styles.


This would help in larger games?



It helps when you want to have the same core rules system and style of play spread out over many scales of game.

When you take a movement tray game down to only 10 or 15 models per side you almost have to use an entirely different movement system. You don't have rank and file any more unless you go for one model on a movement tray of the size of a larger number of models.

So when you've a skirmish movement system you can maintain the same style of play over a wider range of numbers of models per side. Killteam to 40K at 2K uses similar movement systems. Same as when you go into AoS and you have Warcry or you go from 500 to 1000 to 1500 to 2K games. Maintaining the same style of play and tweaking it for the different scale of the game means that players get a similar experience, just with more.

However to do the same with movement trays is trickier and we are back to "it doesn't really work below 1.5K" type situations. Certainly visually you can't get the same experience of rank and file with 1 model on a movement tray type deal.


So yes being Skirmish style in movement helps scale the game size whilst maintaining a similar style of play.
I do agree once you hit 2K points nad armies like Tyranids or Skaven, movement trays can suddenly start to become really attractive. At the same time you have to change how the game works to make them work - AoS has no such system whilst 40K does at least have Apoc style rules.

There is justification to consider adding movement tray movement into 2K scale games, but you also have to accept that as soon as you do that the style of game changes. Terrain density has to change and its shape and type also has to change to facilitate rank and file movement; the way you treat infantry changes etc...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489715.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489715.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Overread wrote:
 Vermis wrote:
Overread wrote:
IT also helps that functionally both 40K and AoS are "skirmish movement" style games rather than big block styles.


This would help in larger games?



It helps when you want to have the same core rules system and style of play spread out over many scales of game.

When you take a movement tray game down to only 10 or 15 models per side you almost have to use an entirely different movement system. You don't have rank and file any more unless you go for one model on a movement tray of the size of a larger number of models.

So when you've a skirmish movement system you can maintain the same style of play over a wider range of numbers of models per side. Killteam to 40K at 2K uses similar movement systems. Same as when you go into AoS and you have Warcry or you go from 500 to 1000 to 1500 to 2K games. Maintaining the same style of play and tweaking it for the different scale of the game means that players get a similar experience, just with more.

However to do the same with movement trays is trickier and we are back to "it doesn't really work below 1.5K" type situations. Certainly visually you can't get the same experience of rank and file with 1 model on a movement tray type deal.


So yes being Skirmish style in movement helps scale the game size whilst maintaining a similar style of play.
I do agree once you hit 2K points nad armies like Tyranids or Skaven, movement trays can suddenly start to become really attractive. At the same time you have to change how the game works to make them work - AoS has no such system whilst 40K does at least have Apoc style rules.

There is justification to consider adding movement tray movement into 2K scale games, but you also have to accept that as soon as you do that the style of game changes. Terrain density has to change and its shape and type also has to change to facilitate rank and file movement; the way you treat infantry changes etc...


We played 6th Ed. at 1,000 points quite often and had no issues, so your suggestion that it doesn't work below 1.5K is nowhere near true unless you're focusing on 8th, which, in my humble opinion, didn't work at higher point levels either.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489866.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489866.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. )]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489971.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11489971.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
A hero & a wizard. Three troops. A cav unit and a war machine. Leaves enough points for a rare or some flanker.

I just wonder if Old world will follow 6th or 7th comp style. Picks or percentages. Kind of hope for picks due to avoiding msu and making list building easier.

I also feel we might get what Saint Stillman feared years ago, 12 armies with different flavor of monstrous infantry, monstrous cavalry, a war altar on wheels and some great weapon special infantry. No real diversity. Perhaps dwarves, skaven and undead will keep their gimmicks. Not really against it, just a vibe I get from the developers diaries they keep releasingm but then again, I've been reading alot of warhammer armies projects lately, and they are very formulaic.

Hope weapon teams remains a thing.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11490096.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11490096.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11490134.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11490134.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11490185.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11490185.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 KidCthulhu wrote:
It would be nice if TOW is a lot more like 6th. I keep trying to get my Oldhammer friends to go back to 6th, but they like some of crazier aspects of 8th that I'm not a fan of.


What, specifically, if I may ask?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11490349.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11490349.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Scottywan82 wrote:
What, specifically, if I may ask?

Specifically? My biggest gripe would have to be the scale/size of the games itself.

Many of my models individually got increasingly worse stats but a drop in points as a transparent cash grab to sell more models.
"Yeah, they suck now but they cost less points so you can field twice as many!"

I shouldn't have to run a unit of 50 models when two editions ago, 20 models were just as effective.I'm also not a fan of the Hordes rule.

I also don't like how my group runs a Lord in 1500 point games and that if I don't take a Lv4 wizard, I basically "lose" the Magic Phase.
Yes, I know that's more of an issue with my group than anything, but the ruleset allows for that playing.

I just miss when I could run a few blocks of infantry, a wizard or two, maybe some cavalry, and have an enjoyable time where the battles were evenly matched (and not hideously one-sided battles punctuated by wargear "gotchas").

So if the scale of the battles for TOW are more like 5th or 6th than 8th, I'll be very happy.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11490357.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11490357.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 KidCthulhu wrote:
 Scottywan82 wrote:
What, specifically, if I may ask?

Specifically? My biggest gripe would have to be the scale/size of the games itself.

Many of my models individually got increasingly worse stats but a drop in points as a transparent cash grab to sell more models.
"Yeah, they suck now but they cost less points so you can field twice as many!"

I shouldn't have to run a unit of 50 models when two editions ago, 20 models were just as effective.I'm also not a fan of the Hordes rule.

I also don't like how my group runs a Lord in 1500 point games and that if I don't take a Lv4 wizard, I basically "lose" the Magic Phase.
Yes, I know that's more of an issue with my group than anything, but the ruleset allows for that playing.

I just miss when I could run a few blocks of infantry, a wizard or two, maybe some cavalry, and have an enjoyable time where the battles were evenly matched (and not hideously one-sided battles punctuated by wargear "gotchas").

So if the scale of the battles for TOW are more like 5th or 6th than 8th, I'll be very happy.


That all makes a lot of sense! Thanks for the reply. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11490840.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11490840.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Overread wrote:

It helps when you want to have the same core rules system and style of play spread out over many scales of game.

When you take a movement tray game down to only 10 or 15 models per side you almost have to use an entirely different movement system.


If you take WFB down to 10-15 models per side I would say you have to use an entirely different game. But isn't that what Mordheim achieved, or even the skirmish rules in the back of the 6th ed book?

Killteam to 40K at 2K uses similar movement systems.


But aren't these treated as different games, too?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11490985.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11490985.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
So do we all agree the ARISE! emphasis in the Tomb Kings article is just a nod to the Total Warhammer voice lines, and not a gameplay hint?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491023.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491023.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 RustyNumber wrote:
I used to think that having core infantry in blocks of 10/15 was a bit stupid (spot the 8th Ed player huh) but if you accept each model as an abstract larger number of soldiers then it's fine. So I've come around to lower model counts for a rank and file game.


Rank and file games with low model counts simply look silly on the table and in game mechanics (having movement maneuvers like in old battle for a line of 4 infantry models is stupid - people don't move like trucks in small numbers). Better play smaller scale with multiple models like in 15-10-6mm on a single base in that case, it gives a better look for the mass battles they're supposed to represent. And it's cheaper too.


So do we all agree the ARISE! emphasis in the Tomb Kings article is just a nod to the Total Warhammer voice lines, and not a gameplay hint?


Pretty much. It's useless to give hints for gameplays when it's not even revealed / set in stone, anyway.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491072.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491072.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
if there are 24 models in a unit that represents 500 soldiers, or 80 models does not make a big difference
neither looks like 500 soldiers, both take the same space on the table and painting is not easier (just different)

it is simply just why what you are used to or not
hence the 16 model minimum unit in Warhammer 6th was still good as a "regiment" and the armies looked impressive

going with larger units always made it look less impressive on the "army" scale for me (hence I neither liked the gameplay nor the look of 8th Edition)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491082.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491082.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 RustyNumber wrote:
So do we all agree the ARISE! emphasis in the Tomb Kings article is just a nod to the Total Warhammer voice lines, and not a gameplay hint?


It might be a hint. When the army book got cruddaced in 8th ed reanimation was changed from the spell Djedra's Incantation of Summoning to a passive effect attached to all buff spells in the new Lore of Nehekhara. It's conceivable that they keep that summoning mechanic and rename it from The Restless Dead to Arise!

Certainly makes more sense than calling a spell Incantation of Arise! and might serve to keep Vampire and Tomb Kings mechanics separate, with the former getting dedicated mass summoning spells and the latter small scale healing attached to buff spells.

I don't remember that to work very well in 8th, but who knows, Tomb Kings being worse than Vampire Counts is a tradition after all. Might be worth keeping as far as the rules writers are concerned.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491083.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491083.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 kodos wrote:
for grand strategic games it does not really matter if it is 28mm or 15/10mm

if there are 24 models in a unit that represents 500 soldiers, or 80 models does not make a big difference
neither looks like 500 soldiers, both take the same space on the table and painting is not easier (just different)

it is simply just why what you are used to or not
hence the 16 model minimum unit in Warhammer 6th was still good as a "regiment" and the armies looked impressive

going with larger units always made it look less impressive on the "army" scale for me (hence I neither liked the gameplay nor the look of 8th Edition)


It doesn't matter simply if your focus is on the game and not how it looks on the table. For you can also use papercraft or tokens to play the battle as well, and it will do the exact same job. Will be looking ugly on pictures, but hey if that's not the focus or you don't intend to take any, why bother.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491088.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491088.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
having an army of several equal sized units looks better for me than just 2 larger units several and small attachments

and it does not look much different if this is 15 or 28mm on the unit level
15mm looks better if you can get more units on the table, hence when the units decrease in size as well]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491093.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491093.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 kodos wrote:
and if 24 models in a unit look ugly this is on you and not something that generally applies to all


Oh no, it looks fine to me. But the original post I was reacting to was not about 24.

I was just talking about low model counts in rank-and-file game systems. And I mean low, like the number of Mordheim-like skirmish games. Those look non-sensical, to me and the "one model actually represent a hundred" is just sounding like an excuse for something else, to me.

I mean, if being cheap is a matter, better go the full way like papercraft and not even bother with models at all. Your wallet will thank you even more.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491095.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491095.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
also 10 to 15 models is not uncommon in other R&F games, specially for light infantry formations or more dynamic models
(there are some nice Napoleonic Battalions out there with 10-15 models in running/attack poses)

and no, no one will play and R&F game with 15 models total in an army]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491101.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491101.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 kodos wrote:
he mentioned 10/15 models per block, which was the numbers used during 6th as the minimum "mass" infantry was 16 and most elites used units of 10 or 12

also 10 to 15 models is not uncommon in other R&F games, specially for light infantry formations or more dynamic models
(there are some nice Napoleonic Battalions out there with 10-15 models in running/attack poses)

and no, no one will play and R&F game with 15 models total in an army


Yes, for some specific infantry formations like light infantry / skirmishers, it's fine. Not whole armies only made of them all the time, it then looks silly. You don't see historic games made only of blocks of 10-15, because that would be silly and not representative of the historic battles. That is the point.

At this level, you play a skirmish game. Better use skirmish rules than rank-and-file, then. Like AoS, it works great at that level.

But that's just my point of view, granted. I feel like moving from 6th edition MSU was a good thing for Battle at that time.


I mean, you can criticize 8th edition for a lot of things and the predominence of hordes, but at least that version was encouraging you to make big formations. Older rule versions had always the feeling that if you dared to make a big horde formation, you'll only get crushed by smaller numbers simply because you had too many disadvantages for benefits in the rules. That was something I like in 8th...and it was frankly visually more impressive than a game with only blocks of 10-15 infantry or 5 cavalry buzzing around on the table, like a sad representation of a small skirmish instead of an epic battle.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491105.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491105.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
I was thinking if you put a restriction on unit width, so adding to a unit always was ranks for the most part.
Then could use the front arc measuring from the back corner to front corner and out.
Big units lose there charge and shooting arc and options, small units on the flank have much bigger ones.
Ranged units can be wider to accommodate it as well.
I think also making sure hero hammer is much less, with heroes being much closer to the units they are in. So you see a lot less huge units that exist just to keep a hero alive though everything.
It’s fine if the centre units grind more and the main game plays out on the flanks I feel. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491119.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491119.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Sarouan wrote:
Yes, for some specific infantry formations like light infantry / skirmishers, it's fine. Not whole armies only made of them all the time, it then looks silly. You don't see historic games made only of blocks of 10-15, because that would be silly and not representative of the historic battles. That is the point.

this is the point I have too disagree as the small model formations are much more representative for historical battles, they just don't look as good

"historically", a company being 50 soldiers wide and 2 soldiers deep is not good represented by square bases

a napoleonic french battalion, with 6 bases 40x15mm and 12 models in total, is much more representative and realistic for the historical battle than anything else
given a 45x40mm base with 6 models per looks better, but it is way too deep to be representative

hence for those were representation of historical battles is more important than how good a unit by itself looks, single model lines for company bases is very common, and a napoleonic battalion of 4 bases with 4 models each a "standard" (usually with 1/72 models to get more units on the table)

masses of 28mm models in one unit is not very common, simple because units become too deep and you don't have enough space on the table
outside of small scaled games (like a single brigade on the table) or mass-skirmish games, this is not really a thing

the point is, it looks silly but it is representative, were those units that don't look silly are not (or use 6mm or smaller models)


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491149.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491149.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 kodos wrote:
for grand strategic games it does not really matter if it is 28mm or 15/10mm

if there are 24 models in a unit that represents 500 soldiers, or 80 models does not make a big difference
neither looks like 500 soldiers, both take the same space on the table and painting is not easier (just different)

it is simply just why what you are used to or not
hence the 16 model minimum unit in Warhammer 6th was still good as a "regiment" and the armies looked impressive

going with larger units always made it look less impressive on the "army" scale for me (hence I neither liked the gameplay nor the look of 8th Edition)


It makes huge diffence. 6mm armies with same foot print looks more impressive, easier to painj and cheaper.

And abstracted model count makes no sense when rules aren't abstracted in same way]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491164.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491164.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491192.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491192.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Just Tony wrote:
Did you just unironically type that 6mm minis are easier to paint?!?!?!?



You can get away with painting less detail and still look impressive next to a full force, especially in a age of Contrast paints.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491194.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491194.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Just Tony wrote:
Did you just unironically type that 6mm minis are easier to paint?!?!?!?


Small scale minis are deceptively easy to paint:
1. Prime white
2. Apply contrast
3. 1 highlight per colour
4. Base
5. Bask in the spectacle of your massive, display-tier Chapter/Regiment/Legion etc.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491199.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491199.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
The reason this worked is that these units were small enough that the player could maneuver the units on the battle field, charge and counter charge and strategy played a major role. This goes away when you field lots of larger units. Do not get me wrong, i do have a 30man, and a 40 man units Pikes and a 35 man unit of Bodyguard, but i have those for much larger games since they do not work in the standard 2150 point Tournament army.

The focus of The Old World needs to be balance and not blindly selling models. Units of twenty plastics and 5 Cav fit very well on a store shelf lets focus the game around that.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491202.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491202.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Just Tony wrote:
Did you just unironically type that 6mm minis are easier to paint?!?!?!?




6mm tends to be a lot easier to paint than WFB minis and a lot quicker. You can of course go to town with paint jobs, but you can get away with the most simplistic stuff at 6mm and it still looks amazing.

6mm doesn't photograph as nicely though which is why there are some really talented 6mm painters out there, but the stuff rarely shows up in the wider wargaming hobby.

It is certainly a different experience than painting 28mm though and its not for everyone.I've done some 6mm scale WFB and if I didn't enjoy building and painting 28mm stuff so much, I'd have sold all my 28mm years ago and stuck with 6mm fantasy. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491213.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491213.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 RexHavoc wrote:

6mm doesn't photograph as nicely though which is why there are some really talented 6mm painters out there, but the stuff rarely shows up in the wider wargaming hobby.


I've been watching this guy apply his tyranid colour scheme to Epic.

https://instagram.com/ryans_minis?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491226.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491226.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Mozzamanx wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
Did you just unironically type that 6mm minis are easier to paint?!?!?!?


Small scale minis are deceptively easy to paint:
1. Prime white
2. Apply contrast
3. 1 highlight per colour
4. Base
5. Bask in the spectacle of your massive, display-tier Chapter/Regiment/Legion etc.


and how is this different from speed painting 28mm models?

except that 3 steps are enough in most cases (prime, apply wahs/ink/contrast, base)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491237.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491237.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Vulcan wrote:
Yeah, there needs to be some sort of 'move into combat' to prevent such shenanigans, instead of the obsession with always charging forward


I always thought the easiest way would be to allow any unit to charge as it already could into contact, but also allow a "move into combat", using any movement allowed. this not counting as a charge for any charge bonuses, but the unit being contacted able to react as if they were being charged

point was two fold:

1. there is no no "safe area" next to an enemy unit but just out of its charge arc
2. a unit large enough to be an actual threat isn't something you willingly blunder into, but a small skirmish unit or lone character can be managed by the bulk of the unit contacting them

would also add some sort of "zone of control" mechanic that many historical games have


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cyel wrote:
Well, WFB ended for me with 7th. Random charges was the one single thing that made me drop the game.


I actually prefer random charges, however what we got was too random. something like "your normal movement plus 1d6" would have for me been better - consider it representing the guy ordering the charge not knowing the exact distance and it removes the "I am 0.1" outside your charge distance" stuff, while still reflecting the actual movement of the units (so faster units still charge further and can still use movement to good effect to maximise the chance of a charge while minimising the chance of being charged to the level the player is comfortable with).

the "everyone charges 2d6!" stuff was frankly just lazy and took away too much of the game into a pure dice roll. yes its a 2d6 roll so you can play the odds but at the end of the day its still a dice roll.

mind you I'd have also put in a minimum charge distance, can still charge below it but you don't get the charge bonuses as not enough space to build momentum up]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491272.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491272.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491278.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491278.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. IMO if not worse than the random for all the reasons that Leopard said.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491298.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491298.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Mr Morden wrote:
Yea a less range dependan random charge would have been better, the fixed distance charge was as bad IMO if not worse than the random for all the reasons that Leopard said.


ANY game mechanics that allow the potential for Dwarfs to move faster than cavalry is a bad mechanic. Fixed charge moves still left plenty of room for players to drop the ball. It was never an issue in any of my games.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491326.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491326.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Just Tony wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Yea a less range dependan random charge would have been better, the fixed distance charge was as bad IMO if not worse than the random for all the reasons that Leopard said.


ANY game mechanics that allow the potential for Dwarfs to move faster than cavalry is a bad mechanic. Fixed charge moves still left plenty of room for players to drop the ball. It was never an issue in any of my games.


In reality, cavlary have stalled, failed charges.

We never had any major problems with random charges. It certianly got rid of the issues with people who could "guess" distance to the mm....some could, some cheated.

and this is another thing I absolutely hated:

the "safe area" next to an enemy unit but just out of its charge arc

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491331.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491331.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Mr Morden wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Yea a less range dependan random charge would have been better, the fixed distance charge was as bad IMO if not worse than the random for all the reasons that Leopard said.


ANY game mechanics that allow the potential for Dwarfs to move faster than cavalry is a bad mechanic. Fixed charge moves still left plenty of room for players to drop the ball. It was never an issue in any of my games.


In reality, cavlary have stalled, failed charges.

We never had any major problems with random charges. It certianly got rid of the issues with people who could "guess" distance to the mm....some could, some cheated.

and this is another thing I absolutely hated:

the "safe area" next to an enemy unit but just out of its charge arc






Other players learned just how many inches a piece of terrain was, or could simply look at their 5 ranks of 25mm base chaos warriors (equals 5 inches) and use eyesight to check distances with those as a reference frame.

While I think there is room for wacky guess the range rules for catapults, stone throwers and charges in a sort of retro 5th edition warhammer goofy style type of game, I dont think it is the right system for The Old World. Movement + 1d6 would be better charge rules, than 2d6 at least.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491337.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491337.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491342.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491342.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 RustyNumber wrote:
Random vs fixed charge debate is WELL established to be a matter of personal taste, I don't think we need that well trod ground here in a news thread...


agree, its just two different ways of doing the same thing, both have advantages and disadvantages, there are games that do both ways well and make both ways work]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491546.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491546.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Mr Morden wrote:

and this is another thing I absolutely hated:

the "safe area" next to an enemy unit but just out of its charge arc



I don't get this one personally . It's part of the tactics of a game with arcs and flanks - the possibility of being out manoeuvred. Other units set back to protect that area, skirmishers with 360 vision, or even just mobile shooting units could all deal with this and is all part of this type of game with restricted movement of units.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491551.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491551.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
MaxT wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:

and this is another thing I absolutely hated:

the "safe area" next to an enemy unit but just out of its charge arc



I don't get this one personally . It's part of the tactics of a game with arcs and flanks - the possibility of being out manoeuvred. Other units set back to protect that area, skirmishers with 360 vision, or even just mobile shooting units could all deal with this and is all part of this type of game with restricted movement of units.


I just think its stupid that say a few enemy can just hang out right next to a mob of Orcs with impunity but that IMO]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491559.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491559.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491571.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491571.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491581.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491581.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
as noted, its just different ways of playing, keep in mind though GW are of the opinion that more random == more good]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491584.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11491584.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/03/01/40-years-of-warhammer-gotrek-and-felix-make-a-scene/

Warhammer community has another Fantasy post about their 40 year anniversary. This time about Felix and Gortrek. I heard a rumor theirs were the only novels selling at profit for whfb in the 2000s


"This dynamic duo debuted in the story Geheimnisnacht by William King – featured in the 1989 anthology Ignorant Armies – and went on to inspire and star in a long-running novel series that has pitted them against unimaginable horrors, terrifying tyrants, and lots and lots and LOTS of goblins"

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11499422.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11499422.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500504.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500504.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Johanxp wrote:
With ToW we'll have a bad ruleset, terribly expensive miniatures and, worse, lot of minor (but better) games will probably disappear. This is what Tow will bring.


You must be fun at parties

Maybe we'll better wait until we know what TOW is actually going to be before we proclaim the sky is falling again.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500507.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500507.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. GW I bothered with.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500511.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500511.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Johanxp wrote:
With ToW we'll have a bad ruleset, terribly expensive miniatures and, worse, lot of minor (but better) games will probably disappear. This is what Tow will bring.


Not really interested in the game tbh - looking forward to more artwork and maybe some passable lore for the era - maybe some minis but maybe not]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500526.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500526.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500535.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500535.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Dread Master wrote:
ToW will hopefully open a window to a new edition of Mordheim. At minimum it will provide fodder for it.


Please no I don't want a monopose Warcry version of Mordheim with a bunch of disney cartoon characters and 20 DLC books. The rules are free and you can change the rules you don't like.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500536.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500536.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500542.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500542.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Dread Master wrote:
Like how we got monopose Necromunda kits with that update? Come on.


Yeah? The Necromunda kits are horribly limited, and they got worse as they went along.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500545.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500545.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Goose LeChance wrote:
Dread Master wrote:
ToW will hopefully open a window to a new edition of Mordheim. At minimum it will provide fodder for it.


Please no I don't want a monopose Warcry version of Mordheim with a bunch of disney cartoon characters and 20 DLC books. The rules are free and you can change the rules you don't like.


If you play an older version of a game that is no longer supported, then a new version is only a good thing. If you like the rules great. If you dont, its not stopping you from continuing to play that old version you love. If new models come with the new edition and you like them, you can possibly use them in that old version you are playing. If you dont like them, you still have your old models. And you have the satisfaction of knowing that people are wasting their money while you play a superior game with superior models.

I will likely buy some new models... but its been a while since I have played anything except RPGs and board games so the game itself is doubtful... but maybe.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500547.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500547.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Goose LeChance wrote:
Dread Master wrote:
Like how we got monopose Necromunda kits with that update? Come on.


Yeah? The Necromunda kits are horribly limited, and they got worse as they went along.


As opposed to what? Mordheim's vast range of hugely modular, customizable...metal miniatures? The plastics from the starter box were exceptional for the time in that regard but they were pretty much outliers in that range. I don't know where the idea that Necromunda's kits are limited comes from.

Don't get me wrong, I'd have plenty of reservations about what GW would do to the Mordheim setting/ruleset but having new kits is not one of them. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500665.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500665.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
JimmyWolf87 wrote:
Goose LeChance wrote:
Dread Master wrote:
Like how we got monopose Necromunda kits with that update? Come on.


Yeah? The Necromunda kits are horribly limited, and they got worse as they went along.


As opposed to what? Mordheim's vast range of hugely modular, customizable...metal miniatures? The plastics from the starter box were exceptional for the time in that regard but they were pretty much outliers in that range. I don't know where the idea that Necromunda's kits are limited comes from.

Don't get me wrong, I'd have plenty of reservations about what GW would do to the Mordheim setting/ruleset but having new kits is not one of them.


Mordheim had a lot of 'borrowed' customization from people using the old-style regiment boxes, especially the Imperial Militia box, which were some of the greatest boxes of all time for parts and bits, but yeah, the actual made-for-mordheim minis were about average.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500671.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500671.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Tsagualsa wrote:
JimmyWolf87 wrote:
Goose LeChance wrote:
Dread Master wrote:
Like how we got monopose Necromunda kits with that update? Come on.


Yeah? The Necromunda kits are horribly limited, and they got worse as they went along.


As opposed to what? Mordheim's vast range of hugely modular, customizable...metal miniatures? The plastics from the starter box were exceptional for the time in that regard but they were pretty much outliers in that range. I don't know where the idea that Necromunda's kits are limited comes from.

Don't get me wrong, I'd have plenty of reservations about what GW would do to the Mordheim setting/ruleset but having new kits is not one of them.


Mordheim had a lot of 'borrowed' customization from people using the old-style regiment boxes, especially the Imperial Militia box, which were some of the greatest boxes of all time for parts and bits, but yeah, the actual made-for-mordheim minis were about average.


Necromunda: because they are, after Escher and Goliath (which still had limitations) they kept getting worse.

The Empire Militia were made for Mordheim then repurposed for Warhammer. But yeah most others were using modular fantasy kits since GW put little investment into Specialist games.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500678.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500678.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Goose LeChance wrote:
Tsagualsa wrote:
JimmyWolf87 wrote:
Goose LeChance wrote:
Dread Master wrote:
Like how we got monopose Necromunda kits with that update? Come on.


Yeah? The Necromunda kits are horribly limited, and they got worse as they went along.


As opposed to what? Mordheim's vast range of hugely modular, customizable...metal miniatures? The plastics from the starter box were exceptional for the time in that regard but they were pretty much outliers in that range. I don't know where the idea that Necromunda's kits are limited comes from.

Don't get me wrong, I'd have plenty of reservations about what GW would do to the Mordheim setting/ruleset but having new kits is not one of them.


Mordheim had a lot of 'borrowed' customization from people using the old-style regiment boxes, especially the Imperial Militia box, which were some of the greatest boxes of all time for parts and bits, but yeah, the actual made-for-mordheim minis were about average.


Necromunda: because they are, after Escher and Goliath (which still had limitations) they kept getting worse.

The Empire Militia were made for Mordheim then repurposed for Warhammer. But yeah most others were using modular fantasy kits since GW put little investment into Specialist games.



Re. the use of WH Fantasy kits, sure but that only really works for the Mercenaries and Skaven (and to an extent Undead given they also utilised some of the WHFB plastics). I certainly wouldn't say the use of re-purposed Fantasy kits was stretched to 'most others' whilst the actual Mordhiem range was still in production without it becoming a conversion. After the support went then naturally any amount of kitbashing did (and does) permeate people's collections. Everything else was fairly bespoke in terms of having a unique aesthetic.

I think I just fundamentally disagree that the Necromunda kits are limited. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500712.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500712.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
JimmyWolf87 wrote:

Re. the use of WH Fantasy kits, sure but that only really works for the Mercenaries and Skaven (and to an extent Undead given they also utilised some of the WHFB plastics). I certainly wouldn't say the use of re-purposed Fantasy kits was stretched to 'most others' whilst the actual Mordhiem range was still in production without it becoming a conversion. After the support went then naturally any amount of kitbashing did (and does) permeate people's collections. Everything else was fairly bespoke in terms of having a unique aesthetic.

I think I just fundamentally disagree that the Necromunda kits are limited.


Certainly the new Necromunda kits are no more limited than the old ones - i think people have a serious case of rose-tinted glasses going on about how posable and flexible these were, it was mostly monopose, often metal bodies with a choice ranging from two to a handful of weapons. To go beyond that, you had to get out your metal saws and e.g. Space Marine / Guard weapon sprues, do headswaps and so on.

Seriously, take a look through the old catalogs, it's mostly no options or weapon swaps:

http://solegends.com/citcat1995-6/cat19956p107-02.htm

Compared to that, the new models are much more customizable, if only because there are dedicated upgrade and weapon packs for each gang.

The Specialist Games era stuff was not much better, they had a couple more metal weapon options and a handful of heads:

http://solegends.com/citcat2005spc/c2005spcp0019-02.htm



]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500714.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500714.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Does it really matter...?

Does Goose saying 'necromunda kits are limited' really bring down the red mist for so many people...?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500722.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500722.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Honestly if the team behind current Necromunda did a new Mordhiem or AoS equivalent I'd be REALLY happy.

Warcry has done great and is a lot of fun visually, but the kits are very single-option (with a leader model having one or two alternate parts). Having some customisable and upgrade compatible models in the fantasy line would be a lot of fun! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500725.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500725.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
The Necromunda plastics started to follow the same pattern as most new kits, where a static pose has at best 1 alternate build. One pose, two loadouts. It's not universal because the design was changing as they were released.

I own modular kits like Frostgrave, Bolt Action, and the Mercenaries. I know the differences between monopose, modular and all things in between. I understand the direction GW has gone so I personally have zero faith in a Mordheim reboot.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500728.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500728.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
The point I was more trying to make with regards to how posable modern Necromunda models are is that they're by and large (Delaque...less so....) far more modular than the majority of kits actually made specifically for Mordheim (with the noted exceptions of the Mercenaries and Skaven); not surprising given the bulk of those sets were metal.

What I would say is that we can't really hold them to the same standards when there's the change in material and just general advances in the technical element of kit manufacture factored in so yes; personally I'd be more than happy, in theory, with modern Mordheim sets with the same degree of customization as the rebooted Necromunda kits. Whether they'd be any good or not in terms of aesthetic or tone or ability to capture the feel of the originals is a different matter. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500733.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500733.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Knock it off, that has nothing to do with ToW N&R. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500749.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11500749.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. dev diary released on the 11th of January
Tomb Kings dev diary released on the 6th of February
,what do you think when is the March dev diary is going to drop and which faction will it be?

My bets that they are going to either this week or on the start of the next. Faction bet is either Bretonnia or High Elves.

Just for gigles lets see that possible factions for the game:

Empire
Tomb Kings
Bretonnia
Dwarfs
High Elves
Wood Elves
Orcs and Goblins
Vampire Counts
Warriors of Chaos
Beastmen
Kislev
Border Princes
Cathay?

Which means, if they do 1 faction a month then it will take a more then a full year for them preview all of them. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501412.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501412.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501429.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501429.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 herjan1987 wrote:
So Empire dev diary released on the 11th of January
Tomb Kings dev diary released on the 6th of February
,what do you think when is the March dev diary is going to drop and which faction will it be?

My bets that they are going to either this week or on the start of the next. Faction bet is either Bretonnia or High Elves.

Just for gigles lets see that possible factions for the game:

Empire
Tomb Kings
Bretonnia
Dwarfs
High Elves
Wood Elves
Orcs and Goblins
Vampire Counts
Warriors of Chaos
Beastmen
Kislev
Border Princes
Cathay?

Which means, if they do 1 faction a month then it will take a more then a full year for them preview all of them.


Didn't they already show Orcs and Goblins stuff along with Bretonnian stuff?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501492.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501492.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
Using an era of internal strife in the Empire as timeframe would technically allow for an Empire - Empire starter à la Horus Heresy (YMMV).

They could then gradually introduce new factions, leapfrogging between good and evil :

Starter (Empire - Empire)

Chaos

Bretonnia

Orcs & Goblins

Dwarves

Skaven

...


With the current information and maps mentioning Cathay, Kislev, The Border Princes and other remote regions in more and more detail,
I think that the scope of the project is getting too big/ambitious and wonder what new miniatures we're effectively going to see..]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501500.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501500.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. dev diary is even a thing?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501501.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501501.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Just Tony wrote:
 herjan1987 wrote:
So Empire dev diary released on the 11th of January
Tomb Kings dev diary released on the 6th of February
,what do you think when is the March dev diary is going to drop and which faction will it be?

My bets that they are going to either this week or on the start of the next. Faction bet is either Bretonnia or High Elves.

Just for gigles lets see that possible factions for the game:

Empire
Tomb Kings
Bretonnia
Dwarfs
High Elves
Wood Elves
Orcs and Goblins
Vampire Counts
Warriors of Chaos
Beastmen
Kislev
Border Princes
Cathay?

Which means, if they do 1 faction a month then it will take a more then a full year for them preview all of them.


Didn't they already show Orcs and Goblins stuff along with Bretonnian stuff?


They showed Artwork, yes, but I think op is talking specifically about a "what are they up to currently" post about each faction, which the dev diaries have done about the Empire and the Tomb Kings. You're still kind of right, because the first post about Bretonnia did show us their rivalry with the Greenskins.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501505.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501505.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501511.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501511.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 lord_blackfang wrote:
Do we actually know if a monthly dev diary is even a thing?


We don't know. There isn't even much of a pattern other than one per month. January 11 was in the third week of the month , February 6 in the second week of the month. The posts were made on a Wednesday and Monday respectively. The posts were four weeks apart, which if you were inclined to see that as the beginnings of a pattern, would put the next post in this week. Although at best that means going back to posting on Wednesday again since we've missed the Monday slot.

This is far from New Model Monday and Horus Heresy Thursday. We can't rule out that a new article drops any minute now, but considering how drawn out the Old World marketing has been so far, I don't think we should feel confident in GW's commitment to regular updates just yet.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501542.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501542.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Since the return of the Regiments of Renown to AoS, it is possible that may also see old RoR return to the game as well, like the Red Redemption, Skarloc's Archers, and/or Mad Mula Akland's Death Commandos.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501612.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501612.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. love all those things to happen, Paymaster, but I'm not nearly as optimistic.

GW just haven't given us enough to go on. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501615.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501615.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Paymaster Games wrote:
I was thinking about this the other day. I think that some of the armies may look a bit different then they did in 6th and for sure 8th. While we will likely see the return of the War Wagon for the empire. Their are a real change we could see the return of older (discontinued) units return to the armies. My thought is that in different armies certain units have fallen out of fashion by the time the modern era came around. So the elves may see the return of Animal trainers (Beastmasters for the Dark Elves), Wood Elves may see Shapeshifters, Falconers and Zoats, or Dark Elves may see the return of Doom Riders (Knights on Elf Steeds) because the Dark Elves have not yet mastered the use of Cold Ones.

Since the return of the Regiments of Renown to AoS, it is possible that may also see old RoR return to the game as well, like the Red Redemption, Skarloc's Archers, and/or Mad Mula Akland's Death Commandos.


Sounds like a great plan to me - also may have more appeal to GW as they are more "unique"

Hoping for just after the Great war as well as Kislev gets a vampire Tzarina ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501704.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501704.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501816.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501816.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
JimmyWolf87 wrote:
Without knowing the full scope/timespan of the setting I don't think we can do more than speculate on the potential names floating about at the time. Like, if we're getting a snapshot about 50 years prior to the Great War (as seems to be the case) then that's a lot more limiting than covering a couple of centuries or so of the build up. The Von Carstein Vampire Counts are all dusted at this point (or floating in a swamp) so will be interesting to see how they're handled (quite like the idea of their petty offspring involved in a Civil War of their own in Sylvania to try and claim the mantle).


I truly believe that the Time of Three Emperors and subsequent Great War against Chaos is just one point in history they will have us visit with the Old World. I think that if the game is succesful, they might jump around to different events, like the vampire wars, or the war against Morghur or Waaagh! Gorbad. The Great War Against chaos is just an event in which so many different factions have a stake in;

- The Dark Elves invade Ulthuan during this period

- The Skaven Civil War is about to end

- Kraka Drak is going to become besieged

- the Red Pox will spread in Bretonnia

And many more things happen coinciding with the Great War.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501918.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501918.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Segersgia wrote:
JimmyWolf87 wrote:
Without knowing the full scope/timespan of the setting I don't think we can do more than speculate on the potential names floating about at the time. Like, if we're getting a snapshot about 50 years prior to the Great War (as seems to be the case) then that's a lot more limiting than covering a couple of centuries or so of the build up. The Von Carstein Vampire Counts are all dusted at this point (or floating in a swamp) so will be interesting to see how they're handled (quite like the idea of their petty offspring involved in a Civil War of their own in Sylvania to try and claim the mantle).


I truly believe that the Time of Three Emperors and subsequent Great War against Chaos is just one point in history they will have us visit with the Old World. I think that if the game is succesful, they might jump around to different events, like the vampire wars, or the war against Morghur or Waaagh! Gorbad. The Great War Against chaos is just an event in which so many different factions have a stake in;

- The Dark Elves invade Ulthuan during this period

- The Skaven Civil War is about to end

- Kraka Drak is going to become besieged

- the Red Pox will spread in Bretonnia

And many more things happen coinciding with the Great War.


Some of those events sound like good opportunities to focus box sets/ releases on to expand past the Empire. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501925.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501925.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501947.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501947.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 KidCthulhu wrote:
I'd love all those things to happen, Paymaster, but I'm not nearly as optimistic.

GW just haven't given us enough to go on.

Yeah, I feel like they're going to stretch this out and keep giving original fans hope, but not sure they can really make what we'd all want. Despite the success of AoS, blowing up the Old World is still one of GW's biggest mistakes to me.

They learned from it, but it hasn't brought the setting we all knew and loved back...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501970.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501970.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 RiTides wrote:
 KidCthulhu wrote:
I'd love all those things to happen, Paymaster, but I'm not nearly as optimistic.

GW just haven't given us enough to go on.

Yeah, I feel like they're going to stretch this out and keep giving original fans hope, but not sure they can really make what we'd all want. Despite the success of AoS, blowing up the Old World is still one of GW's biggest mistakes to me.

They learned from it, but it hasn't brought the setting we all knew and loved back...


On the other hand, they have brought back several other things that people had been asking for, some of which were closer to memes than actual possible releases: Necromunda, Sororitas, Kroot, Arbites, GSC, Squats etc.

That at least does give me some hope that they are aware of the demand for WHF coming back and are taking it seriously. What remains to be seen is how strongly they are going to commit.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501993.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11501993.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 BertBert wrote:


On the other hand, they have brought back several other things that people had been asking for, some of which were closer to memes than actual possible releases: Necromunda, Sororitas, Kroot, Arbites, GSC, Squats etc.

That at least does give me some hope that they are aware of the demand for WHF coming back and are taking it seriously. What remains to be seen is how strongly they are going to commit.


Frankly all that interested me in a return to the Old World is Chaos Dwarves, Cathay and Kislev. So really I think it completely depends on their release schedule on if it will be a strongly supported success. I expect that when it launches it will be heavy with Empire, Chaos and High Elves, but I really hope I am proven wrong.

A "Get Started" box with Kislev versus Chaos Dwarves would be amazing...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502007.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502007.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 RiTides wrote:
 KidCthulhu wrote:
I'd love all those things to happen, Paymaster, but I'm not nearly as optimistic.

GW just haven't given us enough to go on.

Yeah, I feel like they're going to stretch this out and keep giving original fans hope, but not sure they can really make what we'd all want.

I certainly think people should keep their expectations restrained for the initial release, though I'd hope for a fairly comprehensive Black Book set of army lists to cover factions they don't release at launch.

TOW even has me looking at that Dwarf Regiment of Reknown box, as I don't think I had any of those old models in my old Throng. Would need to eBay some square bases, though.

 RiTides wrote:
Despite the success of AoS, blowing up the Old World is still one of GW's biggest mistakes to me.

It's certainly a mistake you'd be intimately familiar with, that's for sure.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502042.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502042.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502055.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502055.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502113.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502113.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I'm more optimistic. I think it is taking a while because they are using the time to make sure it is done right.


While hoping the best, but in the meantime I am keeping my Book of Grudges close.

I also hopping for some cool army boxes like Vanguard and Combat Patrol stuff.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502124.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502124.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I'm more optimistic. I think it is taking a while because they are using the time to make sure it is done right.


I'm gonna throw in a wild guess and say, assuming TOW is actually a thing, it's unlikely to happen while they're churning out monthly Heresy kits. TOW feels like exactly what slides into Heresy production slots once Heresy is done, not run concurrently with it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502136.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502136.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 lord_blackfang wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I'm more optimistic. I think it is taking a while because they are using the time to make sure it is done right.


I'm gonna throw in a wild guess and say, assuming TOW is actually a thing, it's unlikely to happen while they're churning out monthly Heresy kits. TOW feels like exactly what slides into Heresy production slots once Heresy is done, not run concurrently with it.


Indeed - they seem to be in a right hurry to shift as many big forgeworld kits towards plastic as they can, to open up capacity for something, and at this point the only thing we can reasonably assume that to be is TOW.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502139.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502139.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
FW Empire Reikland heads & shields

FW Empire Averland heads & shields

FW Empire Talabecland heads & shields

..]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502157.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502157.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
Old-Four-Arms wrote:
Prepare yourselves (jokingly) :

FW Empire Reikland heads & shields

FW Empire Averland heads & shields

FW Empire Talabecland heads & shields

..


Luckily we'll get:
Plastic Riekland Steamtank

Plastic Averland Steamtank (same basic model, but with a different cannon)

Plastic Nordland Steamtank (same as the the other two, but with a different upgrade sprue)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502180.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502180.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502183.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502183.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
The War Wagon is a suitable replacement for the tank for this time period.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502196.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502196.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. LotR (and many other games) by combining toughness and save into a single defence characteristic? That would then make ward saves extra special and very obviously something completely different, hopefully stemming the tide of “does +1 to saves help my parry roll” and similar. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502200.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502200.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Paymaster Games wrote:
The Steamtank during the period should be a Special Character. Their were so few of them at this time their should be a limit on using them.

The War Wagon is a suitable replacement for the tank for this time period.


In 5th edition there WAS a limit - the Steam Tank was a 0-8 option, because the whole of the Empire only had 8. There used to be 12.

Personally, I'd like to be able to put the War Wagon crew on top of the Tank again.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502211.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502211.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Paymaster Games wrote:
The Steamtank during the period should be a Special Character. Their were so few of them at this time their should be a limit on using them.

The War Wagon is a suitable replacement for the tank for this time period.


Surely there should be more of them, if anything? Only 12 were ever made and that number is only going down over time, the Empire doesn't have the means to reproduce them since the inventor died.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502219.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502219.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. https://eefl.freeforums.net ) there are some roumors from the user called Discoqing:

Mainly 7th ed rules, with some changes.
Subdued magic
360 arc of sight for some units
Random charging is gone. Back to double movement
Premeasuring is still a thing

Also the rulebook is already printed and they are going to release it by the end of this year.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502226.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502226.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502229.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502229.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 herjan1987 wrote:
On the Eigth Edition for Life forum (https://eefl.freeforums.net ) there are some roumors from the user called Discoqing:

Mainly 7th ed rules, with some changes.
Subdued magic
360 arc of sight for some units
Random charging is gone. Back to double movement
Premeasuring is still a thing

Also the rulebook is already printed and they are going to release it by the end of this year.


"Mainly" 7th Edt. rules... then list major reasons why it isnt 7th Edt.

Preameasuring and non random charges combined would make the game quite dull no? Add in 360 arcs and the game plays itself.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502247.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502247.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
frogert_poj wrote:


"Mainly" 7th Edt. rules... then list major reasons why it isnt 7th Edt.

Preameasuring and non random charges combined would make the game quite dull no? Add in 360 arcs and the game plays itself.


Not that know anything more than he posted, but 360 arcs for mounted archers like Glade riders would be interesting.

To elabarate on preameasuring and non random charges, he keeps bringing up Kings of War, where as he says both mechanics work.

Here is link were he spreads, the info:

https://eefl.freeforums.net/thread/3235/?page=2

Its from the middle of the page and goes on till the last.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502261.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502261.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
 Paymaster Games wrote:
The Steamtank during the period should be a Special Character. Their were so few of them at this time their should be a limit on using them.

The War Wagon is a suitable replacement for the tank for this time period.


In 5th edition there WAS a limit - the Steam Tank was a 0-8 option, because the whole of the Empire only had 8. There used to be 12.

Personally, I'd like to be able to put the War Wagon crew on top of the Tank again.


You can run that Tank variant in 6th Edition. Just saying...




And I question the logic of 7th being the basis. It broke far more about 6th than it supposedly fixed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dysartes wrote:
 RiTides wrote:
Despite the success of AoS, blowing up the Old World is still one of GW's biggest mistakes to me.

It's certainly a mistake you'd be intimately familiar with, that's for sure.


This isn't your political circle-jerk board. Leave your political circle-jerk forum drama at the door, please.

Tsagualsa wrote:What you'll actually get is this thread locked once again, for none of this is news & rumours



Some people simply cannot help themselves...
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502265.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502265.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Mr_Rose wrote:
Can I hope they drop the save roll entirely and do as LotR (and many other games) by combining toughness and save into a single defence characteristic? That would then make ward saves extra special and very obviously something completely different, hopefully stemming the tide of “does +1 to saves help my parry roll” and similar.


Hard to say just how far they're willing to deviate from established design. So far we have this early statement from GW:

GW wrote:Warhammer: The Old World will gather up all our favourite mechanics from the 3rd edition to the 8th edition** and add new elements where needed to create something deeply familiar yet fresh and new.


It depends on how much you want to read into the new elements bit. At its least impactful, The Old World will be a "best of" ruleset and anything new is only introduced to mesh things together that weren't originally meant to go together. If you're a bit more hopeful, they'll reevaluate every old rule they plan to use to get a cohesive ruleset that has the advertised familiarity and don't shy away from bigger structural changes to the core rules to make things work better.

Armor saves are actually a good example of something that they should rethink. What you're asking for was mostly the case anyway in late Fantasy. Everyone and their dog was packing S5 and S6 weapons that negated most saves in the game, and no one bothered to spend points on optional light or heavy armor upgrades because you didn't get to use them anyway. This should be addressed, and rolling saves into toughness wouldn't be a half bad way of doing it I reckon. It would remove the double advantage of high strength attacks both getting to wound better and negating saves better at the same time. Might be warranted, considering high lethality is one of the bigger problems in modern GW games.

The question is if that goes well with the goal of providing a ruleset that's deeply familiar. Have a larger number of such rule changes and GW may lose the nostalgia bait effect they're going for.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502352.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502352.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
So from a verisimilitude perspective, it probably makes sense that guys with two-handed weapons (to get S5/S6) are "good" into armoured infantry, cavalry, monsters etc. But since this arguably makes them "good into everything" you might want more gameplay dimensions than this (and it may prompt lots of arguments on melee weapon real life effectiveness vs each other). I agree, there's little point having armour upgrades that do nothing because everyone you want fighting is ignoring their benefit.

We had this in the Tomb Kings article:
Dan: We’ve taken a great deal of care to make the Undead work. It was vital that the rules presented balanced game mechanics while evoking the frightening image of rank upon rank of skeleton warriors marching in unison, as chariots speed towards the enemy flanked by monstrous constructs animated by the ancient magic of the Mortuary Cults. You will be able to wield the powers of a Liche Priest once more, commanding skeletal hordes to Arise! from their tombs and march upon the lands of the living.


Unfortunately it doesn't really tell us anything beyond "we want balanced game mechanics" but also "we want the rules to capture the feel of having skeletons walking forward together, chariots riding around etc" - i.e. verisimilitude.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502356.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502356.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Just Tony wrote:
You can run that Tank variant in 6th Edition. Just saying...

And I question the logic of 7th being the basis. It broke far more about 6th than it supposedly fixed.

I agree... while I primarily played Fantasy during 7th and 8th, the former was broken as heck by the end.

I know a lot of that is the final army books being just off the chain, but it was nuts. I had a very fluffy forest spirit themed wood elf army, and I remember once getting tabled by a Daemon army and only killing 3 models!

Obviously, a bad matchup and not realizing my opponent was going to run his best tournament list played a part, but holy cow that edition was broken.

And then 8th incentivized huge blocks of infantry which were basically just filler... but wouldn't just removing that almost fix 8th? I had very little exposure to earlier editions so no idea on 6th / etc! But it seems likely that GW, like with 30k / Horus Heresy, would choose to build off the last version of the ruleset.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502360.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502360.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 herjan1987 wrote:
On the Eigth Edition for Life forum (https://eefl.freeforums.net ) there are some roumors from the user called Discoqing:

Mainly 7th ed rules, with some changes.
Subdued magic
360 arc of sight for some units
Random charging is gone. Back to double movement
Premeasuring is still a thing

Also the rulebook is already printed and they are going to release it by the end of this year.


Well better magic would be even more soul destroying and broken than it was already.
Premasuring = great
Non random charges -- rubbish choice
360 arc for some units - makes sense

from a verisimilitude perspective, it probably makes sense that guys with two-handed weapons (to get S5/S6) are "good" into armoured infantry, cavalry, monsters etc. But since this arguably makes them "good into everything" you might want more gameplay dimensions than this (and it may prompt lots of arguments on melee weapon real life effectiveness vs each other). I agree, there's little point having armour upgrades that do nothing because everyone you want fighting is ignoring their benefit.


Surely thats what points values are for? So if the Great Weapons are the best they cost more than other weapons. Throw in situational elements - like spears/pikes being good against cav etc....]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502372.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502372.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502379.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502379.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 kodos wrote:
Which R&F games out there, except those based on 8th Edition Warhammer, have random charges combined with pre-measuring?


Conquest: Last Argument of Kings is move value + 1d6. A Song of Ice and Fire is the same. I'm sure I've picked up a few more random R&F rulebooks with it but those are the main two.

I like pre-measuring + non-random charges, with the caveat that scenario encourages that *somebody* has to take the first risk to get into charge range.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502386.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502386.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
That's a wish list.


A gentleman on EEFL says his friends are... not playtesting, but getting sneak previews, I guess? This is what he's reporting of their experience.

Know a guy who knows a guy who shot a guy and all that; take with the appropriate amount of salt. We'll all see if this is true or not by the end of the year.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Rihgu wrote:
with the caveat that scenario encourages that *somebody* has to take the first risk to get into charge range.


There are two ways to do that.

1) Make getting the charge completely irrelevant to who wins the subsequent combat. NO bonus to getting a charge in. No +1 combat res, no striking first, not even bonus S for lances and spears.

2) Random charge ranges.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502392.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502392.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Vulcan wrote:
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
That's a wish list.


A gentleman on EEFL says his friends are... not playtesting, but getting sneak previews, I guess? This is what he's reporting of their experience.

Know a guy who knows a guy who shot a guy and all that; take with the appropriate amount of salt. We'll all see if this is true or not by the end of the year.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Rihgu wrote:
with the caveat that scenario encourages that *somebody* has to take the first risk to get into charge range.


There are two ways to do that.

1) Make getting the charge completely irrelevant to who wins the subsequent combat. NO bonus to getting a charge in. No +1 combat res, no striking first, not even bonus S for lances and spears.

2) Random charge ranges.


Or 3) Have scenarios that encourage that *somebody* has to take the first risk to get into charge range. Ie, an objective marker to claim/destroy.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502396.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502396.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Just Tony wrote:
 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
 Paymaster Games wrote:
The Steamtank during the period should be a Special Character. Their were so few of them at this time their should be a limit on using them.

The War Wagon is a suitable replacement for the tank for this time period.


In 5th edition there WAS a limit - the Steam Tank was a 0-8 option, because the whole of the Empire only had 8. There used to be 12.

Personally, I'd like to be able to put the War Wagon crew on top of the Tank again.


You can run that Tank variant in 6th Edition. Just saying...


I know, and I did. It was my favorite build. I was sad when they removed the option.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502400.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502400.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Rihgu wrote:
 kodos wrote:
Which R&F games out there, except those based on 8th Edition Warhammer, have random charges combined with pre-measuring?

Conquest: Last Argument of Kings is move value + 1d6. A Song of Ice and Fire is the same. I'm sure I've picked up a few more random R&F rulebooks with it but those are the main two.
I like pre-measuring + non-random charges, with the caveat that scenario encourages that *somebody* has to take the first risk to get into charge range.

this is somehow half way thru as you still have the fixed charge range (movement +1) but an extended threat range (even KoW has a trait to add random charge range in addition to the movement)
from the historical games I play, all have a fixed ranges, even the skirmish games, so the only good reason for random ranges I can see is that no one else is doing it and they want the game to be unique

 Vulcan wrote:

1) Make getting the charge completely irrelevant to who wins the subsequent combat. NO bonus to getting a charge in. No +1 combat res, no striking first, not even bonus S for lances and spears.
2) Random charge ranges.
and non of the games without random charge ranges is doing it and it still works
the difference for most games is simple that killing alone does not win the game, so standing in the back and never go into charge range will guarantee a los, no matter how many models you kill with shooting]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502531.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502531.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. D6+X, where X is/is based on movement.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502663.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502663.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think half-random charges split the best of both worlds. D6+X, where X is/is based on movement.

Ugh >.< The worst!!

I can't imagine they'd go this route (or hopefully, any randomness in charge distances) again.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502674.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502674.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think half-random charges split the best of both worlds. D6+X, where X is/is based on movement.


Just ads time and dice rolling that can be better used in other places of the game, better to just add something and save it for other places I think. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502700.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502700.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think half-random charges split the best of both worlds. D6+X, where X is/is based on movement.


Agreed - best of both worlds]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502702.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502702.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 RiTides wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think half-random charges split the best of both worlds. D6+X, where X is/is based on movement.

Ugh >.< The worst!!

I can't imagine they'd go this route (or hopefully, any randomness in charge distances) again.


Keep on hoping baby. Both the Necromunda reboot and the Horus Heresy reboot have random charges.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502722.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502722.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 kodos wrote:
(even KoW has a trait to add random charge range in addition to the movement)


Normally a fixed number for the trait (+1 or +2), only a small subset uses a D3 (which is gak and doesn't gel with the way the system works).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502727.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502727.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Rihgu wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
That's a wish list.


A gentleman on EEFL says his friends are... not playtesting, but getting sneak previews, I guess? This is what he's reporting of their experience.

Know a guy who knows a guy who shot a guy and all that; take with the appropriate amount of salt. We'll all see if this is true or not by the end of the year.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Rihgu wrote:
with the caveat that scenario encourages that *somebody* has to take the first risk to get into charge range.


There are two ways to do that.

1) Make getting the charge completely irrelevant to who wins the subsequent combat. NO bonus to getting a charge in. No +1 combat res, no striking first, not even bonus S for lances and spears.

2) Random charge ranges.


Or 3) Have scenarios that encourage that *somebody* has to take the first risk to get into charge range. Ie, an objective marker to claim/destroy.


If it's placed in the middle there's still no motive to go first and get charged into oblivion. If going first and getting charged means you lose, there's still zero incentive to go first as the person who goes second will be the one both claiming the objective and benefiting from destroying an enemy unit.

If it's on one side or the other it gives that side a big advantage. If there are objectives on both sides we're right back where we started.

And again, cavalry becomes king as they charge farther than infantry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Apple fox wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think half-random charges split the best of both worlds. D6+X, where X is/is based on movement.


Just ads time and dice rolling that can be better used in other places of the game, better to just add something and save it for other places I think.


My general experience is the quarter-inch shuffle trying to bait the other guy into a failed charge takes WAY longer than rolling dice, sometimes taking up between three and five whole turns.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502806.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502806.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Vulcan wrote:
 Rihgu wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
That's a wish list.


A gentleman on EEFL says his friends are... not playtesting, but getting sneak previews, I guess? This is what he's reporting of their experience.

Know a guy who knows a guy who shot a guy and all that; take with the appropriate amount of salt. We'll all see if this is true or not by the end of the year.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Rihgu wrote:
with the caveat that scenario encourages that *somebody* has to take the first risk to get into charge range.


There are two ways to do that.

1) Make getting the charge completely irrelevant to who wins the subsequent combat. NO bonus to getting a charge in. No +1 combat res, no striking first, not even bonus S for lances and spears.

2) Random charge ranges.


Or 3) Have scenarios that encourage that *somebody* has to take the first risk to get into charge range. Ie, an objective marker to claim/destroy.


If it's placed in the middle there's still no motive to go first and get charged into oblivion. If going first and getting charged means you lose, there's still zero incentive to go first as the person who goes second will be the one both claiming the objective and benefiting from destroying an enemy unit.

If it's on one side or the other it gives that side a big advantage. If there are objectives on both sides we're right back where we started.

And again, cavalry becomes king as they charge farther than infantry.


That’s why you need a solid infantry-based anti-cavalry option like pikes. Or buildings that can be occupied. Or specific anti-cavalry formations that units can adopt.
Also, historically, heavy cavalry charges were pretty devastating – it’s just that knights in full plate IRL were hilariously expensive to equip and maintain so no-one had truly overwhelming numbers of them. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502813.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502813.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
You don't need a special anti-cavalry option, it should not be possible in the first place in a 1vs1 fight

And heavy cavalry was not that rare, specially in the timeframe the Empire armies are ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502818.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502818.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502820.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502820.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. OT chat...

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/782431.page]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502821.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502821.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 lord_blackfang wrote:
 RiTides wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think half-random charges split the best of both worlds. D6+X, where X is/is based on movement.

Ugh >.< The worst!!

I can't imagine they'd go this route (or hopefully, any randomness in charge distances) again.


Keep on hoping baby. Both the Necromunda reboot and the Horus Heresy reboot have random charges.

Well that's disappointing! Thanks though, I'll be more realistic ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502913.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502913.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 RiTides wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
 RiTides wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think half-random charges split the best of both worlds. D6+X, where X is/is based on movement.

Ugh >.< The worst!!

I can't imagine they'd go this route (or hopefully, any randomness in charge distances) again.


Keep on hoping baby. Both the Necromunda reboot and the Horus Heresy reboot have random charges.

Well that's disappointing! Thanks though, I'll be more realistic


As will I. I simply won't play the game if it's random charge. The more 8th is in it, the less likely I am to waste a single cent on it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502950.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502950.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Tsagualsa wrote:
Please take it to the Old World OT chat...

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/782431.page


Must be about time for the big padlock until we get another actual news article huh?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502957.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11502957.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Just Tony wrote:
 RiTides wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
 RiTides wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think half-random charges split the best of both worlds. D6+X, where X is/is based on movement.

Ugh >.< The worst!!

I can't imagine they'd go this route (or hopefully, any randomness in charge distances) again.


Keep on hoping baby. Both the Necromunda reboot and the Horus Heresy reboot have random charges.

Well that's disappointing! Thanks though, I'll be more realistic


As will I. I simply won't play the game if it's random charge. The more 8th is in it, the less likely I am to waste a single cent on it.

That's probably smart... I'll take further discussion of this over to the Dakka Discussions thread linked above!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503007.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503007.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503139.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503139.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503148.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503148.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Incoming new map at a different perspective and more recycled artwork.



....Recycled artwork? What art are you referring to? All the art i've seen for them has been new. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503163.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503163.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
Also if the focus does remain on the Empire - lets see whats different around the year 2000 - so less guns, more regional units.

Just no Halflings - EVER]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503222.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503222.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Mr Morden wrote:
Loving the new maps but yeah i would really like to see artwork for previously unseen or rarely things, people, places - so less another image of Skeleton cav and more glimpses of Cathay, Kislev, further afield.

Also if the focus does remain on the Empire - lets see whats different around the year 2000 - so less guns, more regional units.

Just no Halflings - EVER


BRING BACK THE HOT POT!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503303.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503303.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/03/13/old-world-development-diary-revealing-the-weapons-of-war/





]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503467.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503467.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503470.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503470.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
In today’s article we’re visiting the armouries of the Old World and giving you a first look at some of the weapons and wargear that can be found in the brand new plastic kits coming for the Kingdom of Bretonnia and the Tomb Kings of Khemri.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503473.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503473.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503479.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503479.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503483.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503483.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
And it's awesome that that they're Tomb Kings and Bretonnia kits. To me that they've revealed those as the first new models sort of feels like they somewhat acknowledge that what happened with them in The End Times/AoS was a mistake. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503484.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503484.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Gert wrote:
Love the lil bug friends.


Warhammer, where the apex predator of the bug world has adopted the ultimate camouflage: a skull ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503485.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503485.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Whole Tomb King set up feels like its an multi-part character set. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503487.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503487.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Gert wrote:
Love the lil bug friends.


They were definitely your friend when the metal Blood Bowl Tomb King team came out many years ago. They were the pads that helped make joints big enough to actually glue together . Especially since they were all metal back then.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503490.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503490.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Sotahullu wrote:
That shield-like-plank with skeleton crossed arms is, without out doubt, front of an chariot.

Whole Tomb King set up feels like its an multi-part character set.


With that crossed-arm position i feel it's specifically the front for a minor-hero chariot, and the version for a Tomb King will have it holding these egyptian sceptres:

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503491.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503491.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503494.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503494.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 lord_blackfang wrote:
Bruh whaaat


New plastics, yes-yes, we like-like.

That makes this whole project about 500% more interesting than i thought it could be.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503496.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503496.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503497.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503497.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503500.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503500.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Sotahullu wrote:
Did... did people really think there wouldn't be any plastic releases?


We did have absolutely no basis to say anything at all about new plastics with certainty - it was very, very likely that there would be, but having confirmation still quells a lot of fears people semi-reasonably had.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503501.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503501.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
Congrats to Tomb Kings and Bretonnia though, I guess?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503502.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503502.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Le Hype.
How long was it between the teaser of SoB such as this (banners, helmets, ect.) and the actual release?
I’m trying to guesstimate how long until we see something akin to a full preview.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503504.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503504.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
New plastic kits means it's not a small specialist game thing, Tomb Kings indicates it's not limited to the Empire area of the Map / Specifically "The Old World", and that they're entirely new models means there's more to it than just re-releasing old kits again. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503506.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503506.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503507.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503507.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
Tsagualsa wrote:
The most important sentence in that whole affair:

In today’s article we’re visiting the armouries of the Old World and giving you a first look at some of the weapons and wargear that can be found in the brand new plastic kits coming for the Kingdom of Bretonnia and the Tomb Kings of Khemri.


Gob thoroughly smacked.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503508.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503508.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:
Le Hype.
How long was it between the teaser of SoB such as this (banners, helmets, ect.) and the actual release?
I’m trying to guesstimate how long until we see something akin to a full preview.


SoB had their first CAD reveal at the Adepticon 2018 Studio Seminar and their Codex release in November 2019]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503509.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503509.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. buuuuuuuuuuut they don't have to be posting the previews as soon as they start the work.

The SoB bulletin seemed to be months after that work was done.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503511.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503511.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
It’s happening, tomb kings are happening.
There is much hope.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503512.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503512.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503514.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503514.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503515.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503515.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 stahly wrote:
New PLASTIC Tomb Kings and Bretonnian models. Can't believe it.


Yep its a pretty amazing reveal- new designs and that they are going to be in plastic! Thats a good sign for the future of the Old World.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503517.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503517.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Sotahullu wrote:
I am betting for autumn, this year.


If the rumour mill is not extremely, bafflingly mislead we'll get a new edition of Warhammer 40k in late june/early july, which would pretty much rule out another major game release before christmas at the earliest. Wh40k is their crown jewel and their main moneymaker, they would not risk another game 'stealing' the spotlight close after a new edition.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503521.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503521.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. it would fit the rumours for a rules release end of 2023, and first army books and new models early 2024]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503524.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503524.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. TK being made in plastic and the rumour sprang from there).

Either way, plastic kits for some of the least popular ranges bodes very well for the scope of TOW and how much of it will be in plastic.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503526.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503526.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 kodos wrote:
if it is like the others with a year until model release
it would fit the rumours for a rules release end of 2023, and first army books and new models early 2024


I think they'd want to have at least a book and limited edition book/box release in 2023 for marketing reasons, it's the year of Warhammer's 40th birthday after all, and then the start of the main bulk of releases in 2024.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503527.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503527.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Chikout wrote:
Does none else think that the Bretonnian stuff is just kind of boring? There's not much on the way of detail and the helmet crests are pretty much the same designs we had before. The shields also look exactly like the old ones with no added details. Keeping the face of the shields bare is sensible, but there are no nicks or dents no lady's favours hanging off the shields and barely any variation in the shapes of the shields. The swords are also all prestine with a pretty uniform design. The only nice touch I liked is the key hanging on one arm. I don't need oddles of detail but for a preview showing off a first look at new minis, I expected more. The Tomb King stuff is much better.


I understand what you mean, but they're established designs. I don't think changing the basic elements of them would be an overly good idea especially when something like TW:W has the classic look still, but some more optional accessores would be good. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503529.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503529.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Definitely the most interesting reveal so far, I think. It shows that the Old World isn't some small project like many have been going on about for ages.

New plastic kits means it's not a small specialist game thing, Tomb Kings indicates it's not limited to the Empire area of the Map / Specifically "The Old World", and that they're entirely new models means there's more to it than just re-releasing old kits again.


Those small specialist games have also got new plastic so...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503533.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503533.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
Tsagualsa wrote:
The most important sentence in that whole affair:

In today’s article we’re visiting the armouries of the Old World and giving you a first look at some of the weapons and wargear that can be found in the brand new plastic kits coming for the Kingdom of Bretonnia and the Tomb Kings of Khemri.


Absolutely. I am beyond hyped.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503534.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503534.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Chikout wrote:
Does none else think that the Bretonnian stuff is just kind of boring? There's not much on the way of detail and the helmet crests are pretty much the same designs we had before. The shields also look exactly like the old ones with no added details. Keeping the face of the shields bare is sensible, but there are no nicks or dents no lady's favours hanging off the shields and barely any variation in the shapes of the shields. The swords are also all prestine with a pretty uniform design. The only nice touch I liked is the key hanging on one arm. I don't need oddles of detail but for a preview showing off a first look at new minis, I expected more. The Tomb King stuff is much better.


Whereas I hope that the kopeshs are specifically the super fancy royal variety the normal soldiery doesn't get their hands on. I'd prefer if the kopesh design remains the same or at least a recognizable update of what we used to have. The previewed weapons are a bit much in my opinion.

I'm glad for new kits, though.

Tsagualsa wrote:
 Sotahullu wrote:
I am betting for autumn, this year.


If the rumour mill is not extremely, bafflingly mislead we'll get a new edition of Warhammer 40k in late june/early july, which would pretty much rule out another major game release before christmas at the earliest. Wh40k is their crown jewel and their main moneymaker, they would not risk another game 'stealing' the spotlight close after a new edition.


The longest a new edition rollout has been drawn out was 9th ed due to Covid, concluding around October. A new edition summer release doesn't get in the way of a November specialist game release. Which is not to say that it's definitely this year, but a new 40k edition this year is not a mark against it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503538.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503538.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Sotahullu wrote:
Did... did people really think there wouldn't be any plastic releases?


I definitely had concerns. As someone who doesn't buy resin kits, I am still worried that the heroes and other key models may be resin rather than plastic.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503539.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503539.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
New plastic kits means it's not a small specialist game thing, Tomb Kings indicates it's not limited to the Empire area of the Map / Specifically "The Old World", and that they're entirely new models means there's more to it than just re-releasing old kits again.

Blood Bowl, Necromunda and Aeronautica Imperialis would all like to say "hello"...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503544.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503544.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Scottywan82 wrote:
 Sotahullu wrote:
Did... did people really think there wouldn't be any plastic releases?


I definitely had concerns. As someone who doesn't buy resin kits, I am still worried that the heroes and other key models may be resin rather than plastic.


I’d bet it being closer to Horus Heresy 2.0 rather than necromunda in terms of plastic/resin ratio.
Possibly smaller overall ranges with a lot of double/triple purpose kits and an odd resin special character here and there.

I wonder if the stuff releasing for AoS has been modelled with the Old World in mind. Like new squigs and such.. although new warriors of chaos seem to be telling us a different story: it’d be a pain to rank and file them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503548.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503548.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Tsagualsa wrote:
 Sotahullu wrote:
I am betting for autumn, this year.


If the rumour mill is not extremely, bafflingly mislead we'll get a new edition of Warhammer 40k in late june/early july, which would pretty much rule out another major game release before christmas at the earliest. Wh40k is their crown jewel and their main moneymaker, they would not risk another game 'stealing' the spotlight close after a new edition.


November seems like a reasonable bet. We got 40k 8th edition in June 2017 followed by the Necromunda launch 5 months later.

Doesn't seem worthwhile making any comparisons to 9th edition though, given how the release schedule was disrupted going into that.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503550.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503550.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
I still think we are a year away from the actual release, minimum.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503552.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503552.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Chikout wrote:
Does none else think that the Bretonnian stuff is just kind of boring? There's not much on the way of detail and the helmet crests are pretty much the same designs we had before. The shields also look exactly like the old ones with no added details. Keeping the face of the shields bare is sensible, but there are no nicks or dents no lady's favours hanging off the shields and barely any variation in the shapes of the shields. The swords are also all prestine with a pretty uniform design. The only nice touch I liked is the key hanging on one arm. I don't need oddles of detail but for a preview showing off a first look at new minis, I expected more. The Tomb King stuff is much better.


Utterly the opposite for me. I loathe it when GW designs insist on smothering what would be a pretty good sculpt with layer upon layer of unnecessary detail. Much prefer a 'clean' model where any extra ornamentation is optional. My main concern for any new Brets is the horses; GW's recent track record on posing those in a way that doesn't look daft isn't great. Hopefully caparisons and the general chonkiness of Bretonnian warhorses will limit their urges to have them nearly floating in mid-air.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Dysartes wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
New plastic kits means it's not a small specialist game thing, Tomb Kings indicates it's not limited to the Empire area of the Map / Specifically "The Old World", and that they're entirely new models means there's more to it than just re-releasing old kits again.

Blood Bowl, Necromunda and Aeronautica Imperialis would all like to say "hello"...


Think there's different ends of the spectrum there. AI might have been pretty limited but Necromunda and Blood Bowl have both been fairly substantial releases (particularly 'Munda) under the SG umbrella. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503556.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503556.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:
 Scottywan82 wrote:
 Sotahullu wrote:
Did... did people really think there wouldn't be any plastic releases?


I definitely had concerns. As someone who doesn't buy resin kits, I am still worried that the heroes and other key models may be resin rather than plastic.


I’d bet it being closer to Horus Heresy 2.0 rather than necromunda in terms of plastic/resin ratio.
Possibly smaller overall ranges with a lot of double/triple purpose kits and an odd resin special character here and there.

I wonder if the stuff releasing for AoS has been modelled with the Old World in mind. Like new squigs and such.. although new warriors of chaos seem to be telling us a different story: it’d be a pain to rank and file them.


On the topic of ranking things up, there's nothing to say that a 30mm square base couldn't be introduced, base sizes for minis often flipped back and forth between different editions of WHFB.

I'm building a Beastmen army at current and it's all going on custom 20mm round mini-bases that magnetize into larger bases, basing for that army is all over the place to start with and it'll future proof them for ToW, too.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503559.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503559.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503561.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503561.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503566.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503566.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. TK) don't suffer from ongoing scale creep.

I have a sizeable Bret army from 5th/6th, and would really like the new stuff to fit in. The last iteration of Brets were much bulkier and larger, and looked out of place.

If they were "to scale", I'd buy a bunch. If they're not... then no sales from me (and I'm not even going to mention the potential price points).

And while these teases are a lot of fun, I want to know when we might actually expect them. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503567.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503567.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503571.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503571.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Chikout wrote:
Does none else think that the Bretonnian stuff is just kind of boring? There's not much on the way of detail and the helmet crests are pretty much the same designs we had before. The shields also look exactly like the old ones with no added details. Keeping the face of the shields bare is sensible, but there are no nicks or dents no lady's favours hanging off the shields and barely any variation in the shapes of the shields. The swords are also all prestine with a pretty uniform design. The only nice touch I liked is the key hanging on one arm. I don't need oddles of detail but for a preview showing off a first look at new minis, I expected more. The Tomb King stuff is much better.


I respectfully disagree...I'm glad the design is relatively simple, hopefully this translates to a lower price point for these releases and not $100 for 5 models which with inflation/current economy, that's what we are trending towards it feels like.

But ignoring the economics here, I think the target audience they are trying to appeal to are mostly oldhammer folks and of course people playing Total War. Keeping the design simple allows oldhammer folks the ability to incorporate these new designs into existing armies and hopefully not scare away new folks entering from the Total War world who might just be trying a table top miniatures games for the first time.

Moreover, some of the best paint (and conversions) I've seen in the worlds of Warhammer (both 40k and fantasy) in my entire life have been with Bretonnia armies. I loveeeeeeeeee that they kept the shields bare so people could paint their own heraldies on there. Painting each knight individually I have zero doubt is a pain but gives you ample opportunity to add details as you see fit yourself and is certainly a labor of love. And it shows when lined up against them on the battlefield.

I for one was initially worried when the images looked like resin weapons at first glance and my mind went down the rabbit hole of specialist games/limited releases/etc...then I read the actual article and saw plastic and new models and was stoked. Excited for what this brings.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503573.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503573.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Cruentus wrote:

If they were "to scale", I'd buy a bunch. If they're not... then no sales from me (and I'm not even going to mention the potential price points).


Increased scale also carries the problem of larger unit foot prints = less board space for the "playing" part. I hope they have this one figured out.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503574.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503574.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503575.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503575.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Olthannon wrote:
They look pretty good, hopefully the models will look better than these renders. But I'm excited for these bad boys and I'm glad Bretonnians and Tomb Kings are getting new kits.

I still think we are a year away from the actual release, minimum.


Yeah. Next summer would be my guess. Which is a long time to wait - but I just disagree on "its a specialist game, they could chuck it out whenever".

I guess it depends on how far you stretch "specialist game".

Obviously the big box sets are kind of expensive - but you can be in the midst of a 40k army and find some money to buy a Bloodbowl team or Necromunda gang box if say you suddenly wanted to play with your friends (and one of them has the rules, dice, terrain etc).

I'm not sure that's the same as what appears to be a fairly major resurrection of Fantasy armies. I mean if the Tomb Kings were to get just a Tomb Prince, a Liche Priest, some foot skeletons and chariots, that's 4 new kits. Chuck in - due to references in previous reveals - say new Ushabti and a Tomb Scorpion and that's 6 kits. That's a 40k/AoS level release.
Brets could have the same.
Empire could have even more. Then there's Chaos, Orcs and Goblins, Dwarfs, Three different kinds of elves, Kislev as advertised all those years ago, the list goes on. I wouldn't expect all of this out at the same time obviously - but it adds up in a way that I don't think some of these examples do.

If GW is going to put this much effort in, they need to make it land. Which means the official release, big box etc, will be a big event. I don't think they'll want to cram that in with 40k. If we get a new edition, we won't just get a new box, but will also inevitably get a new wave of Marines+whoever else in the box (Tyranids?) with the codexes a few months later. Presumably (since they've been at pains to tell us) AoS isn't being terminated, so they'll still be doing releases for that as well. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503577.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503577.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Cruentus wrote:
I know this horse is already out of the barn, but I'm hoping that the Brets (and the TK) don't suffer from ongoing scale creep.

I have a sizeable Bret army from 5th/6th, and would really like the new stuff to fit in. The last iteration of Brets were much bulkier and larger, and looked out of place.

If they were "to scale", I'd buy a bunch. If they're not... then no sales from me (and I'm not even going to mention the potential price points).

And while these teases are a lot of fun, I want to know when we might actually expect them.


Well then you can forget tow right away as they won't go back to old scale


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 nathan2004 wrote:
Chikout wrote:
Does none else think that the Bretonnian stuff is just kind of boring? There's not much on the way of detail and the helmet crests are pretty much the same designs we had before. The shields also look exactly like the old ones with no added details. Keeping the face of the shields bare is sensible, but there are no nicks or dents no lady's favours hanging off the shields and barely any variation in the shapes of the shields. The swords are also all prestine with a pretty uniform design. The only nice touch I liked is the key hanging on one arm. I don't need oddles of detail but for a preview showing off a first look at new minis, I expected more. The Tomb King stuff is much better.


I respectively disagree...I'm glad the design is relatively simple, hopefully this translates to a lower price point for these releases and not $100 for 5 models which with inflation/current economy, that's what we are trending towards it feels like.



Sorry to be downer but sheld design won't affect mould cost so unlikely to show in price. Details cost them maybe 0.0000001 pound per box ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503578.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503578.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
GW likes it's winter releases as much as holding the summer for it's mainline new editions. BB2016 came out in Nov/Dec. Necromunda came out the same time the following year. Battle for Osgilliath came out in November.

Depending on what they've got coming out, it's quite common for them to release SG new editions in the run up to Christmas.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503584.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503584.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! AOS models and that the Warhammer fantasy battle aesthetic isn't coming back again.



If the scale creep is too bad then this is going to wind up with a market flooded with 6th edition bretonnian models or 5th edition models. It'll also mean flooded 6th edition Tomb King models. I plan on snapping up as many as I find]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503585.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503585.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Automatically Appended Next Post:
 nathan2004 wrote:
Chikout wrote:
Does none else think that the Bretonnian stuff is just kind of boring? There's not much on the way of detail and the helmet crests are pretty much the same designs we had before. The shields also look exactly like the old ones with no added details. Keeping the face of the shields bare is sensible, but there are no nicks or dents no lady's favours hanging off the shields and barely any variation in the shapes of the shields. The swords are also all prestine with a pretty uniform design. The only nice touch I liked is the key hanging on one arm. I don't need oddles of detail but for a preview showing off a first look at new minis, I expected more. The Tomb King stuff is much better.


I respectfully disagree...I'm glad the design is relatively simple, hopefully this translates to a lower price point for these releases and not $100 for 5 models which with inflation/current economy, that's what we are trending towards it feels like.



"Sorry to be downer but sheld design won't affect mould cost so unlikely to show in price. Details cost them maybe 0.0000001 pound per box "

One can dream right? LOL. But no seriously I get what you're saying but it's also how GW justifies price...When they throw out models with a lot of detail (regardless of production cost), they can point to that model and say hey we are charging x amount of money because it cost us a lot of material/manpower/etc to design and manufacture that model. Now whether or not that's true or not, we likely won't know but from a consumer's point of view, we can rationalize and understand (and perhaps accept) how they arrived at that. And are more prone I'd argue to shell out the money for it.

With simple designs, not so much. But that's just my take on it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503590.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503590.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Chikout wrote:
Does none else think that the Bretonnian stuff is just kind of boring? There's not much on the way of detail and the helmet crests are pretty much the same designs we had before. The shields also look exactly like the old ones with no added details. Keeping the face of the shields bare is sensible, but there are no nicks or dents no lady's favours hanging off the shields and barely any variation in the shapes of the shields.

Why on Earth there should be any nicks on dents in the shields when A) it's obvious they made them flat for the use with big sheet of transfers that will come in the box, B) you can make any nicks and dents you want with drill and knife but you can't exactly undent damaged shields if 'your dudes' are of the type that wears only the pristine stuff into battle?

Ditto with the shield shapes (historically, it was pretty uniform in a given era because people used the best design available and shields were the cheapest and simplest to make piece of kit) and swords (in later medieval times most of the swords issued were brand new, there was no market stall with used swords in every town, that's video game invention), I fail to see how either is a problem exactly...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503591.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503591.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! TK fans (myself included). This should be a fun release!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503592.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503592.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Kanluwen wrote:
*goes back to his forests, waiting for news on the Asrai*

Congrats to Tomb Kings and Bretonnia though, I guess?


Apologies in advance if this is a ignorant question but aren't all the Elf races combined into 1 at this point in the story line? I play Dark Elves and have a high elf army on sprues still (I even had an entire Wood Elf army bought and in boxes still at the end of 8th I sold when AoS dropped) so I'd be pumped if we get them separated into their distinct factions. Admittedly I'm not a historian of the game, I just really enjoyed playing and didn't get into the lore much until right at the very tail end of things.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503596.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503596.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 nathan2004 wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
*goes back to his forests, waiting for news on the Asrai*

Congrats to Tomb Kings and Bretonnia though, I guess?


Apologies in advance if this is a ignorant question but aren't all the Elf races combined into 1 at this point in the story line? I play Dark Elves and have a high elf army on sprues still (I even had an entire Wood Elf army bought and in boxes still at the end of 8th I sold when AoS dropped) so I'd be pumped if we get them separated into their distinct factions. Admittedly I'm not a historian of the game, I just really enjoyed playing and didn't get into the lore much until right at the very tail end of things.


Nope, they've been separate for millennia already at this point in the timeline. In fact the Dark Elves are involved in probably their most significant (and most successful) invasion of Ulthuan around this time. In terms of Elven history, IC 2200-2250 (or thereabouts) is pretty recent. Same Phoenix King as the 'current' one (i.e. prior to End Times) and most of the existing named elven special characters should be alive, even if they're not as significant as they later would be. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503598.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503598.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503600.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503600.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
I like the rather plain bretonnia look. Even an average painter like me can do them fairly easy. Compare to the Indomitus space marines for unneeded kipple imo.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503601.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503601.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Cruentus wrote:
I know this horse is already out of the barn, but I'm hoping that the Brets (and the TK) don't suffer from ongoing scale creep.

I have a sizeable Bret army from 5th/6th, and would really like the new stuff to fit in. The last iteration of Brets were much bulkier and larger, and looked out of place.

If they were "to scale", I'd buy a bunch. If they're not... then no sales from me (and I'm not even going to mention the potential price points)

I use both iterations of Brets in my army. The older ones are my Knights Errant (ornamentation removed from the helmets to give them a more basic look) while the newer ones make up my KotR and Grail Knights. I'll probably use the newest sculpts as my Grail Knights and keep the rest just to help accentuate social/class stratification between the types of knightly units.

I just hope we'll be able to make proper looking Questing Knights out of these new kits.



]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503604.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503604.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Breotan wrote:
 Cruentus wrote:
I know this horse is already out of the barn, but I'm hoping that the Brets (and the TK) don't suffer from ongoing scale creep.

I have a sizeable Bret army from 5th/6th, and would really like the new stuff to fit in. The last iteration of Brets were much bulkier and larger, and looked out of place.

If they were "to scale", I'd buy a bunch. If they're not... then no sales from me (and I'm not even going to mention the potential price points)

I use both iterations of Brets in my army. The older ones are my Knights Errant (ornamentation removed from the helmets to give them a more basic look) while the newer ones make up my KotR and Grail Knights. I'll probably use the newest sculpts as my Grail Knights and keep the rest just to help accentuate social/class stratification between the types of knightly units.

I just hope we'll be able to make proper looking Questing Knights out of these new kits.



As far as scale goes, the khemri hands seems to be fairly miniscules om these weapons. So I dare believe they are not very chunky, clunky or 'heroic' scale.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503615.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503615.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503622.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503622.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 KidCthulhu wrote:
Finally, something concrete for The Old World!


Yeah. Its nice. Like the lack pointless cruft.

Given their previous fate, though, now I'm worried about how long GW will bother to support TOW.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503628.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503628.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 triplegrim wrote:


As far as scale goes, the khemri hands seems to be fairly miniscules om these weapons. So I dare believe they are not very chunky, clunky or 'heroic' scale.



That's likely just better proportions doing away with ham fists across the range.

People should really expect the Cadian treatment for the new miniatures.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503630.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503630.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! If people buy into TOW then GW will support it and people will buy in if GW supports the system both locally and globally i.e. events and the such.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503634.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503634.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Incoming new map at a different perspective and more recycled artwork.


Oof. This didn't even have time to age! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503636.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503636.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Gert wrote:
Depends if it makes money or not doesn't it?
If people buy into TOW then GW will support it and people will buy in if GW supports the system both locally and globally i.e. events and the such.


That's the hope but even exceding gw's own sale expectations isn't sure path for further support]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503637.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503637.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! HH.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503640.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503640.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! HH had last year, at the earliest.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503642.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503642.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 lord_blackfang wrote:
I would expect it in 2024 in the same time slot HH had last year, at the earliest.


AOS 4th Edt. is next Summer, 2025 would be the HH release slot. If they are sticking to the 3 year cycle.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503703.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503703.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! AoS. Maybe they could make them Southlands specific and give them a different flavour.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503708.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503708.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Olthannon wrote:
Given this is "The Old World" (even though we all know it's just WFB 2) I'd be interested to see what they do with Lizardmen to separate them from AoS. Maybe they could make them Southlands specific and give them a different flavour.

Do they have to?
Like, the ones in AoS are explicitly the same species from WFB, down to some individuals being the same survivors of the destruction of the old world, not some half-mad godling’s recreation based on a dream of a memory. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503712.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503712.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Mr_Rose wrote:
 Olthannon wrote:
Given this is "The Old World" (even though we all know it's just WFB 2) I'd be interested to see what they do with Lizardmen to separate them from AoS. Maybe they could make them Southlands specific and give them a different flavour.

Do they have to?
Like, the ones in AoS are explicitly the same species from WFB, down to some individuals being the same survivors of the destruction of the old world, not some half-mad godling’s recreation based on a dream of a memory.


They could do the same thing they do with daemons, they're linked through some shared meta-reality by the warp, but are not necessary the same individuals from the same universe.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503720.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503720.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
TWO Bretonnia



AoS Dawnbringer Crusades

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503723.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503723.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Mr_Rose wrote:
 Olthannon wrote:
Given this is "The Old World" (even though we all know it's just WFB 2) I'd be interested to see what they do with Lizardmen to separate them from AoS. Maybe they could make them Southlands specific and give them a different flavour.

Do they have to?
Like, the ones in AoS are explicitly the same species from WFB, down to some individuals being the same survivors of the destruction of the old world, not some half-mad godling’s recreation based on a dream of a memory.



Does anyone have to do anything?

In the lore, they describe the Southlands Lizardmen as different but we never got the models, now is a thematic opportunity to do so.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503724.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503724.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Very cool that they are showcasing Bretonnia too, 8th edition was close to being "complete" and these guys just missed the boat (and the boat sank anyway). Maybe the starter set will be Brets and TK, who knows! Always thought a Bret crusade in the south would have been both cool and quite fitting.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503729.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503729.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Olthannon wrote:

Does anyone have to do anything?

In the lore, they describe the Southlands Lizardmen as different but we never got the models, now is a thematic opportunity to do so.

Only book I have handy is the 2003 one, and the only real meaningful differences are Horned Ones plus the Skink Cohorts and the 1:1 Scar-Veteran/Saurus Warrior requirement. It feels more organizational than anything else.

Was there more? Genuinely trying to figure this out.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503733.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503733.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Olthannon wrote:

Does anyone have to do anything?

In the lore, they describe the Southlands Lizardmen as different but we never got the models, now is a thematic opportunity to do so.

Only book I have handy is the 2003 one, and the only real meaningful differences are Horned Ones plus the Skink Cohorts and the 1:1 Scar-Veteran/Saurus Warrior requirement. It feels more organizational than anything else.

Was there more? Genuinely trying to figure this out.


IIRc there was more of a difference in the fluff, the actual published southlands list actually dialed it back a lot to make it playable as a variant list with existing models.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503737.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503737.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW) releases the Old World by Christmas or early next year (which would make sense). Do you think that would release a Ravaging Hordes for this game on release? I mean the goal would be to get people playing right out of the gate, don't you think?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503740.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503740.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! AOS? Would seem logical but its GW

I mean I guess they want to sell everyone all new models - even for the armies they have but getting that done at any speed with all the other stuff to be done for all the other games - seems unlikely.

We know they have a Cathay army book done and thats an auto sell to many many of us - same with a Kislev book (well i will be buying them) - will they bring it out with a Cathay and Kislev book for WFRP 4th?



]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503744.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503744.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW already ruined the joke.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503746.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503746.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! so there will be some kind of Index or Hordes list, or simply just profiles in the back of the rulebook of everything that was there at the end of Warhammer

which will already be a problem as not all armies were on the same level
so some get their big centerpiece monsters but not all

what is open now is, of there will be a real Ravening Hordes book (or several) that is balanced with everything on the same level (which was the reason that made it good in 6th in the first place)
or it is just an Index like collection of profiles with the special rules adjusted for the new names and people need to wait for the army books to get kind of balanced/playable armies

both is possible]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503747.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503747.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! IMO) to 1 year and 3 months away (to fill the spot HH took in 2022 - June 2024), surprising there have been little to no leaks about anything. Where's good ole Hastings when you need them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503755.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503755.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
These older player will drive sales if given something to work with. If they do not a Warhammer Armies/ Ravaging Hordes at the time of release of the Old World that would likely stall sales. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503756.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503756.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503812.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503812.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Paymaster Games wrote:
Considering that about half (likely more) of the player's that will pick up the Old World will already have a army ready to go. Wouldn't it be foolish to have such a large group wait for army books to come out? I think so.

These older player will drive sales if given something to work with. If they do not a Warhammer Armies/ Ravaging Hordes at the time of release of the Old World that would likely stall sales.


Then again as they have armies they aren't likely buy much of old models anyway.

The game will live and die by _new_ customers. Not old ones. GW is banging on getting new players with this. Not existing ones. Those are nice bonus to get but ultimately they are there to provide opponents for new players who do the actual purchasing.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503862.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503862.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503867.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503867.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
seriously though if the starter has Bretonnia in it I'm getting it, even if its not played all that often if it means my Bretonnians who spent the last two editions wondering if they would ever see a new book are essentially playable again I'm happy

also when you think about it Bret & TK in a starter makes sense, specifically as both suit "contrast" type paint jobs reasonably well (while both also being able to look spectacular in other ways).

e.g. bone is bone, and knights are not hard to do with one colour for armour and one, maybe two for the cloth bits and a brown for the horse to look acceptable]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503877.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503877.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 RustyNumber wrote:
^ The Total Warhammer games should be providing an absolute fecktonne of interest from new players. It's still crazy how WFB was killed off just before the best possible adaptation of the world (using an existing IP) was getting rolling. All time concurrent peak players is 100k+ for the third game, the install base is huge.


Assuming of course that, a majority of those computer games players aren't the old WFB players getting their fix because GW killed their game. Just a thought.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503885.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503885.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! PC gaming is much lower/higher than TT gaming respectively. And that's before you get to the decade of players who have come of independent hobbying age since the death of WFB.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503889.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503889.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Gimgamgoo wrote:
 RustyNumber wrote:
^ The Total Warhammer games should be providing an absolute fecktonne of interest from new players. It's still crazy how WFB was killed off just before the best possible adaptation of the world (using an existing IP) was getting rolling. All time concurrent peak players is 100k+ for the third game, the install base is huge.


Assuming of course that, a majority of those computer games players aren't the old WFB players getting their fix because GW killed their game. Just a thought.


Pop on reddit, you'll see TONS of posts from peope who played TW:W and were looking to get into the tabletop game. Why is it so hard for people to understand that there is simply a market and audience for this game?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503893.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503893.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW's over-dramatic garbage.
*However*, exercise caution before pledging all your money and firstborn child to this game - this is still GW we're talking about. There's every possiblity that the rules will be GW-awful if they're taking anything from 8th Ed (random charges can get right in the bin, for example), and plastic models being revealed doesn't rule out the possiblity of HH (core units being left out while constant 'big' pieces get released instead) or Aeronautica/Titanicus (big initial push followed by complete neglect) treatment, both of which are also plagued by a lot of the ranges being relegated to Forge World resin.
And none of that touches on the pricing, either...precedent suggests that you won't be looking at a reasonable cash amount to put a unit together.

In short, the plastics are good news, but temper your excitement in the face of the realities of GW - and remember that there are plenty of R&F rulesets to use your WHFB models with...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503916.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503916.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Gimgamgoo wrote:
 RustyNumber wrote:
^ The Total Warhammer games should be providing an absolute fecktonne of interest from new players. It's still crazy how WFB was killed off just before the best possible adaptation of the world (using an existing IP) was getting rolling. All time concurrent peak players is 100k+ for the third game, the install base is huge.


Assuming of course that, a majority of those computer games players aren't the old WFB players getting their fix because GW killed their game. Just a thought.


A pitiful amount of in silico players would ever consider playing the game in vivo.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503925.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503925.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503928.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503928.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503957.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503957.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Goose LeChance wrote:
Am I supposed to believe the blacksmiths sculpt like modern day cartoonists? The dragon head is worrying and so are the weapon's size.


Why not? It's a jousting crest.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503961.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503961.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Goose LeChance wrote:
Am I supposed to believe the blacksmiths sculpt like modern day cartoonists? The dragon head is worrying and so are the weapon's size.


While the Dragon head does look a little more cartoony than what I can see on the previous models, those weren't exactly all realistic depictions either. It's meant to be a piece of elaborate stylized decoration.

And just what's wrong with the weapon size? Weapons came in all sorts of different sizes historically. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503967.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503967.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
The Khemri weapons look like something from a Klingon episode of DS9.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503975.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503975.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Vermis wrote:
I thought the swords, at least, looked quite sensible for Warhammer. I don't get it.

The Khemri weapons look like something from a Klingon episode of DS9.


Gowron was one of the best parts of all star trek, so I'm suddenly much more okay with the strange khemri weapons ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503981.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503981.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
C'mon, GW's gotta compete with ASOIAF's aesthetic or even their own video games. The audience isn't 12 years old.

Yeah, the swords are good, the axe is kind of big and the TK weapons are ridiculous.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503985.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503985.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Goose LeChance wrote:
Am I supposed to believe the blacksmiths sculpt like modern day cartoonists? The dragon head is worrying and so are the weapon's size.


While the Dragon head does look a little more cartoony than what I can see on the previous models, those weren't exactly all realistic depictions either. It's meant to be a piece of elaborate stylized decoration.

And just what's wrong with the weapon size? Weapons came in all sorts of different sizes historically.


Also keep in mind that there's shrinkage between the CAD file and the actual end product, the CAD stuff often looks a bit more massive than a finalized cast. It's most apparent with stuff like axes or clubs, but it's a general thing - the CAD often looks a little bit too stout/chunky.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503993.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11503993.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Goose LeChance wrote:
Because it should look like a medieval head ornament sculpted by a blacksmith, instead of a cute Pixar dragon from someone's DeviantArt page.


And just what should they look like then, exactly? Because trying to find some examples, it's difficult to find any that aren't just modern day fantasy interpretations, but the pieces of artwork I've found from the time period and what appear to be a few photos of helmet crests (and just decorated helmets in general from then) certainly aren't some realistic super detailed highly elaborate style and actually appear quite cartoony.

For example: https://www.pinterest.com/mothemelusine/medieval-heraldic-helmet-crests/

Those Bretonnian helmet crests don't seem out of place to me. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504004.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504004.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Goose LeChance wrote:
Because it should look like a medieval head ornament sculpted by a blacksmith, instead of a cute Pixar dragon from someone's DeviantArt page.

C'mon, GW's gotta compete with ASOIAF's aesthetic or even their own video games. The audience isn't 12 years old.

Yeah, the swords are good, the axe is kind of big and the TK weapons are ridiculous.


The Crest is an ornamental piece of art, not a gigantic chunk of iron. The blacksmith wouldn't be the one doing the crest, it would be added on by an artisan after the fact.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504007.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504007.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Goose LeChance wrote:
Because it should look like a medieval head ornament sculpted by a blacksmith, instead of a cute Pixar dragon from someone's DeviantArt page.


And just what do those look like, exactly? Because trying to find some examples, it's difficult to find any - plenty of modern day things that show a fantasy style, but the pieces of artwork I've found from the time period and what appear to be a few photos of helmet crests (and just decorated helmets in general from then) certainly aren't some realistic super detailed highly elaborate style and actually appear quite cartoony.


These helmet ornaments were rarely sculpted by blacksmiths, they were usually made of cloth, wood, actual animal parts and materials like gipsum or even bread dough. Also, they were generally not worn into battle, but used for jousting or purely ceremonial purposes. Their heraldic use, e.g. in pictures, books and rolls of heraldry, was much more important than their actual use as an article of armour, because they served to distinguish between people that bore the same device in their shields, e.g. different sons from the same family branch.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504011.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504011.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Just Tony wrote:
Goose LeChance wrote:
Because it should look like a medieval head ornament sculpted by a blacksmith, instead of a cute Pixar dragon from someone's DeviantArt page.

C'mon, GW's gotta compete with ASOIAF's aesthetic or even their own video games. The audience isn't 12 years old.

Yeah, the swords are good, the axe is kind of big and the TK weapons are ridiculous.


The Crest is an ornamental piece of art, not a gigantic chunk of iron. The blacksmith wouldn't be the one doing the crest, it would be added on by an artisan after the fact.


My bad, so it's the artisan browsing tumblr at 3 AM for cute dragon pics, not the blacksmith.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504013.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504013.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Goose LeChance wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
Goose LeChance wrote:
Because it should look like a medieval head ornament sculpted by a blacksmith, instead of a cute Pixar dragon from someone's DeviantArt page.

C'mon, GW's gotta compete with ASOIAF's aesthetic or even their own video games. The audience isn't 12 years old.

Yeah, the swords are good, the axe is kind of big and the TK weapons are ridiculous.


The Crest is an ornamental piece of art, not a gigantic chunk of iron. The blacksmith wouldn't be the one doing the crest, it would be added on by an artisan after the fact.


My bad, so it's the artisan browsing tumblr at 3 AM for cute dragon pics, not the blacksmith.


If you look up some actual artwork and photos of crests from the time period rather than just assuming you know how they should look and you'll see that they weren't how you're suggesting.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504020.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504020.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Goose LeChance wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
Goose LeChance wrote:
Because it should look like a medieval head ornament sculpted by a blacksmith, instead of a cute Pixar dragon from someone's DeviantArt page.

C'mon, GW's gotta compete with ASOIAF's aesthetic or even their own video games. The audience isn't 12 years old.

Yeah, the swords are good, the axe is kind of big and the TK weapons are ridiculous.


The Crest is an ornamental piece of art, not a gigantic chunk of iron. The blacksmith wouldn't be the one doing the crest, it would be added on by an artisan after the fact.


My bad, so it's the artisan browsing tumblr at 3 AM for cute dragon pics, not the blacksmith.


If you look up some actual artwork and photos of crests from the time period rather than just assuming you know how they should look and you'll see that they weren't how you're suggesting.


Also take care not to look at 17th or 18th century paintings depicting what they'd imagine the 'middle ages' to look like, that's another problem right there ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504021.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504021.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Sotahullu wrote:
Did... did people really think there wouldn't be any plastic releases?


Just surprised that two of the less popular armies would be among the first to get kits, that's all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Goose LeChance wrote:
Because it should look like a medieval head ornament sculpted by a blacksmith....


Ah... medieval helmet crests, especially crests that size, were not steel or iron. They'd be too heavy to wear. For something that size, wood and leather and cloth are the order of the day.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504029.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504029.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Vulcan wrote:
 Sotahullu wrote:
Did... did people really think there wouldn't be any plastic releases?


Just surprised that two of the less popular armies would be among the first to get kits, that's all.


Maybe GW think it's an opportunity to kickstart two new ranges that were completely discontinued when they moved to AoS? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504033.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504033.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Vulcan wrote:
 Sotahullu wrote:
Did... did people really think there wouldn't be any plastic releases?


Just surprised that two of the less popular armies would be among the first to get kits, that's all.


It's going to be rather interesting to see the success/failure of this game system.

Bretonnia/Tomb Kings were unpopular back in WHFB hence why they didn't make the jump to AoS like the more popular factions did in some form, I think that starting with these two is just to placate the vocal minority that dredge twitter. Should have launched Dwarves vs Greenskins.

Unless they have some form of alternate activations or copy Conquest's activation system, I don't see this game succeeding, the lore isn't enough to keep it afloat, and the Total War franchise is keeping this period alive well enough.

Will be pleasantly surprised if it succeeds, but there's no good base to build off of like there was with Horus Heresy. HH for example built upon 40k 7th edition, which had good core rules, but the excessive bloat and free detachments/broken psychic phase really soured the crowd on 7th. What edition of WHFB was successful enough to build upon? When LotR came out it usurped WHFB in sales and became the #2 GW game. from 5th-8th the game kept scale creeping, reducing points (1.5pt skaven slaves) in a 3k point standard list, it's not manageable.

Really hope we get some rules teases sooner rather than later for The Old World to put my mind at ease.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504035.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504035.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 infinite_array wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:
 Sotahullu wrote:
Did... did people really think there wouldn't be any plastic releases?


Just surprised that two of the less popular armies would be among the first to get kits, that's all.


Maybe GW think it's an opportunity to kickstart two new ranges that were completely discontinued when they moved to AoS?


When TOW fails they can port the models over to AoS since they'll probably fit right in]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504038.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504038.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. ), I will say that even with artistic license on the exact shape I would have expected a longer snout to go with the serpentine design that is the majority of Warhammer dragons.

Maybe it's not a dragon but a sea serpent? Or a rarely seen bird dragon? There's bound to be a larger number of crests on the sprue, so GW needs an equal number of different designs. Maybe a more traditional Warhammer dragon is among those.

 infinite_array wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:
 Sotahullu wrote:
Did... did people really think there wouldn't be any plastic releases?


Just surprised that two of the less popular armies would be among the first to get kits, that's all.


Maybe GW think it's an opportunity to kickstart two new ranges that were completely discontinued when they moved to AoS?


I wouldn't read too much into it. It's not that you can't come up with sensible reasons for why GW might have an interest in leading with two discontinued ranges for their big nostalgia trip. It's just when you're a Bretonnia fan, or Tomb Kings, or previously Sisters of Battle, you know exactly what to expect from GW.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504042.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504042.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Goose LeChance wrote:
Because it should look like a medieval head ornament sculpted by a blacksmith, instead of a cute Pixar dragon from someone's DeviantArt page.

C'mon, GW's gotta compete with ASOIAF's aesthetic or even their own video games. The audience isn't 12 years old.


It probably shouldn't really.

That sort of head-dress wouldn't be 'sculpted by a blacksmith' at all. It'd probably be made of leather, wood or even cloth (Teutonic helm-wings were paper mache....) and would only actually be used in tourneys where there's a whole element of theatre added to the mix. Bretonnians just have them in real battles because, you know, fantasy. If you think that dragon looks silly then I'd suggest looking at more medieval art. It's bonkers. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504043.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504043.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
JimmyWolf87 wrote:
If you think that dragon looks silly then I'd suggest looking at more medieval art. It's bonkers.


Also: lots and lots of genitalia, at and in the most unlikely places.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504045.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504045.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504046.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504046.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Strg Alt wrote:
 Gimgamgoo wrote:
 RustyNumber wrote:
^ The Total Warhammer games should be providing an absolute fecktonne of interest from new players. It's still crazy how WFB was killed off just before the best possible adaptation of the world (using an existing IP) was getting rolling. All time concurrent peak players is 100k+ for the third game, the install base is huge.


Assuming of course that, a majority of those computer games players aren't the old WFB players getting their fix because GW killed their game. Just a thought.


A pitiful amount of in silico players would ever consider playing the game in vivo.


a massive number of modern 40k players came in thanks to Dawn Of War, so I think you might be underestimating the draw]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504048.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504048.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Goose LeChance wrote:
I've seen plenty of medieval art I can tell the difference between a Disney cartoon and medieval art


Again, look at some photos of medieval helmet crests or even just decorated helmet designs and you'll see that the Bretonnia stuff being a little silly and cartoony isn't out of place. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504052.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504052.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Goose LeChance wrote:
I've seen plenty of medieval art I can tell the difference between a Disney cartoon and medieval art


That's nice. Fairly useless in this scenario as that crest isn't purporting to be either of those things, but still.

It's definitely not may favourite of the 3 and I'd probably have liked it toned down a little but in the grand scheme of things; meh. Slightly smaller 'nose' or the mouth thinning a bit and it's grand.

I just feel sorry for the poor bugger whose knightly ancestor killed a Razorgor. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504054.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504054.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 infinite_array wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:
 Sotahullu wrote:
Did... did people really think there wouldn't be any plastic releases?


Just surprised that two of the less popular armies would be among the first to get kits, that's all.


Maybe GW think it's an opportunity to kickstart two new ranges that were completely discontinued when they moved to AoS?


It´s just a reminder from GW which factions got shot behind the shed with no remorse back in the day. Still have my TK but I moved on to 9th Age. Nice try GW although I will never come back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cypher226 wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:
 Gimgamgoo wrote:
 RustyNumber wrote:
^ The Total Warhammer games should be providing an absolute fecktonne of interest from new players. It's still crazy how WFB was killed off just before the best possible adaptation of the world (using an existing IP) was getting rolling. All time concurrent peak players is 100k+ for the third game, the install base is huge.


Assuming of course that, a majority of those computer games players aren't the old WFB players getting their fix because GW killed their game. Just a thought.


A pitiful amount of in silico players would ever consider playing the game in vivo.


a massive number of modern 40k players came in thanks to Dawn Of War, so I think you might be underestimating the draw


Building 30 Space Marines is different from building a WHFB army. 30 models in the Old World are often only 1.5 units. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504055.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504055.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
Goose LeChance wrote:
 infinite_array wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:
 Sotahullu wrote:
Did... did people really think there wouldn't be any plastic releases?


Just surprised that two of the less popular armies would be among the first to get kits, that's all.


Maybe GW think it's an opportunity to kickstart two new ranges that were completely discontinued when they moved to AoS?


When TOW fails they can port the models over to AoS since they'll probably fit right in


Sweet Asuryan, the presumption here...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504059.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504059.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
I posted it in the video games TW3 thread.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504061.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504061.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! WHFB army. 30 models in the Old World are often only 1.5 units.”

Towards the end of whfb 30 infantry could have easily been 1.0 units. In 6th and 7th, I remember 20 being a popular infantry block size and some 16 man blocks as well. Curious what unit size the new rules will reward since that will drive what people field.

I’m also curious how they will structure starting sets. If they go $300 plus and/or stingy smaller starters…We’ll see

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504064.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504064.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
Vulcan wrote:Ah... medieval helmet crests, especially crests that size, were not steel or iron. They'd be too heavy to wear. For something that size, wood and leather and cloth are the order of the day.


Tell me you're a fantasy gamer without telling me you're a fantasy gamer. Iron? Steel? It's a bit heavier than balsawood and foamcore, right...?



"Ow me back" says Korhil.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504114.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504114.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Vermis wrote:
Vulcan wrote:Ah... medieval helmet crests, especially crests that size, were not steel or iron. They'd be too heavy to wear. For something that size, wood and leather and cloth are the order of the day.


Tell me you're a fantasy gamer without telling me you're a fantasy gamer. Iron? Steel? It's a bit heavier than balsawood and foamcore, right...?



"Ow me back" says Korhil.


Nah he is an Elf - its Ithilmar ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504119.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504119.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 infinite_array wrote:
Maybe GW think it's an opportunity to kickstart two new ranges that were completely discontinued when they moved to AoS?


I think they just want to cover bases AoS doesn't. They do seem to be a touch nervous about the flat earth narrative of AoS and WFB being mutually exclusive.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504140.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504140.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Johanxp wrote:
With ToW we'll have a bad ruleset, terribly expensive miniatures and, worse, a lot of minor (but better) games will probably disappear. This is what Tow will bring.


You might have nothing to worry about]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504146.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504146.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Goose LeChance wrote:
Johanxp wrote:
With ToW we'll have a bad ruleset, terribly expensive miniatures and, worse, a lot of minor (but better) games will probably disappear. This is what Tow will bring.


You might have nothing to worry about


The bretonnia and khemri preview looks great imo. I hope the ruleset may match them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504206.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504206.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
I've long regretted not buying the plastic Brettonian Knights kit.

Unfortunately, I'm just not interested anymore. The chance that the rules are better than 6th edition is basically zero, and those rules weren't without their obvious warts.

After moving over to a game with pre-assembled minis (ASOIAF), I've found GWs modern monopose miniatures a huge pain to assemble. I have very limited hobby time, and spending it cleaning the mold lines off a four piece infantry guy with exactly one pose and zero options just isn't fun.

The rules won't be better. Games Workshop make me feel poorly treated as a fan over and over. It will be wildly expensive. Assembly will be a chore. There just isn't much this game has going for it outside of nostalgia.

If this were any other company and all they had to show after 3 years was a couple of renders...

I hope it is everything everyone wants it to be. But I think it will end up disappointing.

Sincerely hope it is awesome. I just don't see many reasons to hope given everything we know about GW.

I won't weigh in any more here so that I don't drag down the mood. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504211.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504211.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Gallahad wrote:
I really enjoyed Warhammer Fantasy 5-7th editions. Played a ton of 6th edition.

I've long regretted not buying the plastic Brettonian Knights kit.

Unfortunately, I'm just not interested anymore. The chance that the rules are better than 6th edition is basically zero, and those rules weren't without their obvious warts.

After moving over to a game with pre-assembled minis (ASOIAF), I've found GWs modern monopose miniatures a huge pain to assemble. I have very limited hobby time, and spending it cleaning the mold lines off a four piece infantry guy with exactly one pose and zero options just isn't fun.

The rules won't be better. Games Workshop make me feel poorly treated as a fan over and over. It will be wildly expensive. Assembly will be a chore. There just isn't much this game has going for it outside of nostalgia.

If this were any other company and all they had to show after 3 years was a couple of renders...

I hope it is everything everyone wants it to be. But I think it will end up disappointing.

Sincerely hope it is awesome. I just don't see many reasons to hope given everything we know about GW.

I won't weigh in any more here so that I don't drag down the mood.



All of this just sounds like you're not in their target demographic anymore.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504250.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504250.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! TK pieces shown are incrediblem but the brettonia ones are a bit bland. Almos seems like they were taken out of the old knight kit. Still, really exciting news.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504251.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504251.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504253.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504253.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World.
Chikout wrote:
Does none else think that the Bretonnian stuff is just kind of boring? There's not much on the way of detail and the helmet crests are pretty much the same designs we had before. The shields also look exactly like the old ones with no added details. Keeping the face of the shields bare is sensible, but there are no nicks or dents no lady's favours hanging off the shields and barely any variation in the shapes of the shields. The swords are also all prestine with a pretty uniform design. The only nice touch I liked is the key hanging on one arm. I don't need oddles of detail but for a preview showing off a first look at new minis, I expected more. The Tomb King stuff is much better.


Well, you just said it much better than i did]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504254.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504254.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Ahtman wrote:
I am really surprised by them being plastic, especially with the recent Horus Heresy Assault Marine arms being resin.

I'm pretty sure this is the main army setup for the box set.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504258.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504258.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! TK will be in the starter, likely Empire/O&G or Khorne/Kislev since that will likely garner a larger audience, previewing them here was a nod to the folks that had their armies squatted.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504268.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504268.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!

Showing this Armies feels more like to show the audience for those Armies that no one forgot them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504290.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504290.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504295.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504295.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504297.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504297.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
The Bret release has six swords and one axe. Five of the swords are of the same size, one is bigger. Does this indicate that these knights will be released in boxes of five? The five smaller swords are for if you want your whole unit to match, and the bigger sword is one for your leader if you wish to build a command group.

Releasing the cavalry in sets of five certainly matches current GW policy regarding mounted units, and I think all of this hints at bigger base sizes - not much of a shock there - and smaller armies than were seen during Fantasy, especially at the end. It does however raise questions surrounding how the Bretonnians will play - will the lance formation still remain? Do I need to by two boxes of these knights to make a full usable unit? I think the second is unlikely, as they will want to make things as accessible as possible, and as much as GW likes to charge as much as they can, there is no incentive to pick up this stuff if to get one unit on the field you need two boxes.

As there are the options of lances, swords and axes for the Bretonnians, it perhaps suggests the weapon options will be the defining factor in how units may be different from each other, which may prevent a large amount of rule bloat and memorisation, but may make some factions feel very similar to each other. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504313.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504313.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 NAVARRO wrote:
Well if its orcs on the starter I don't think they can do a worse job than Kruleboys. Truly awful lot.


I like both the Kruleboys and OBR for their '80/90s fantasy paperback cover pastel-coloured hallucination' aesthetics, they look like they stepped out of a Blanche painting or some Heavy Metal album cover. They are truely 'retro', faux-nostalgic for a past version of themselves that never existed. They look like Warhammer Fantasy Battles would have looked in the 80s if today's technology had existed back then, if that makes any sense.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504321.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504321.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 NAVARRO wrote:
Well if its orcs on the starter I don't think they can do a worse job than Kruleboys. Truly awful lot.


I wouldn't trust them with anything, the people who made WHFB what it was are gone. All the new 40K stuff looks exactly like AoS because it's all the same sculptors with the same training and the same orders from the top.

This is why BFG is the last hope, it's nearly impossible to mess up the ship design unless they start putting 'my little pony heads' on the front.



]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504355.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504355.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 NAVARRO wrote:
Well if its orcs on the starter I don't think they can do a worse job than Kruleboys. Truly awful lot.

And I think Kruleboys are the best Orks/Orcs they have ever done. lol Really not a fan of comedy orks with heads growing from their chests...

I think the Bretonnian and Tomb Kings stuff looks good. I also hope Bretonnians vs Tomb Kings is the way they go for the starter set.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504369.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504369.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Strg Alt wrote:

Building 30 Space Marines is different from building a WHFB army. 30 models in the Old World are often only 1.5 units.


1.5? Back in 6E, certainly; maybe 7th. In 8th you'd routinely see 30 as a medium unit, with large units of 40, 50, or more. My Dark Elves normally run two combat blocks of 30, and then 50 more in eight different chaff units. And that's an elite army; when I play Skaven there might be five or six big blocks on the table along with the usual technological terrors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vermis wrote:
Vulcan wrote:Ah... medieval helmet crests, especially crests that size, were not steel or iron. They'd be too heavy to wear. For something that size, wood and leather and cloth are the order of the day.


Tell me you're a fantasy gamer without telling me you're a fantasy gamer. Iron? Steel? It's a bit heavier than balsawood and foamcore, right...?



"Ow me back" says Korhil.


.... Okay, that's fair. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504371.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504371.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
MvR wrote:
These new releases are quite interesting for what they potentially reveal about the number of models that will come in boxes, which, in turn, could offer clues into how the game will be played.

The Bret release has six swords and one axe. Five of the swords are of the same size, one is bigger. Does this indicate that these knights will be released in boxes of five? The five smaller swords are for if you want your whole unit to match, and the bigger sword is one for your leader if you wish to build a command group.

Releasing the cavalry in sets of five certainly matches current GW policy regarding mounted units, and I think all of this hints at bigger base sizes - not much of a shock there - and smaller armies than were seen during Fantasy, especially at the end. It does however raise questions surrounding how the Bretonnians will play - will the lance formation still remain? Do I need to by two boxes of these knights to make a full usable unit? I think the second is unlikely, as they will want to make things as accessible as possible, and as much as GW likes to charge as much as they can, there is no incentive to pick up this stuff if to get one unit on the field you need two boxes.

As there are the options of lances, swords and axes for the Bretonnians, it perhaps suggests the weapon options will be the defining factor in how units may be different from each other, which may prevent a large amount of rule bloat and memorisation, but may make some factions feel very similar to each other.
What if they put six knights in a box? You could still do lance formation that way, right (first rank: 1 model, second rank: 2 models, third rank: 3 models)?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504386.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504386.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Taarnak wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:
Well if its orcs on the starter I don't think they can do a worse job than Kruleboys. Truly awful lot.

And I think Kruleboys are the best Orks/Orcs they have ever done. lol Really not a fan of comedy orks with heads growing from their chests...

I think the Bretonnian and Tomb Kings stuff looks good. I also hope Bretonnians vs Tomb Kings is the way they go for the starter set.


Agreed, the Kruleboyz are the best Orc models that GW have ever produced. I can understand not being a fan of the aesthetic, but they are objectively technically excellent sculpts, so calling them "truly awful" is a truly awful take.

Anyway, I'm getting excited for Brets, they can't come soon enough!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504388.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504388.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
 Taarnak wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:
Well if its orcs on the starter I don't think they can do a worse job than Kruleboys. Truly awful lot.

And I think Kruleboys are the best Orks/Orcs they have ever done. lol Really not a fan of comedy orks with heads growing from their chests...

I think the Bretonnian and Tomb Kings stuff looks good. I also hope Bretonnians vs Tomb Kings is the way they go for the starter set.


Agreed, the Kruleboyz are the best Orc models that GW have ever produced. I can understand not being a fan of the aesthetic, but they are objectively technically excellent sculpts, so calling them "truly awful" is a truly awful take.

Anyway, I'm getting excited for Brets, they can't come soon enough!


I will call them what I want thank you, Sir. Besides just because a mini is flooded with crappy details which are horrible to individually paint, the faces are not the focal point but rather the shields(fail)! Yeah you call it technically advanced I call them a model Design mess. Looking at the champ sprue its a full figure piece split/sliced in 3 very awkward angles (ridiculous), thats very poor no mater how you want to say this sprue design is good.
Not enjoyable to paint or build and all faces look like sucking on lemons!
Aesthetic was what I was really talking about but you went on a tangent.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504396.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504396.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 NAVARRO wrote:

I will call them what I want thank you, Sir. Besides just because a mini is flooded with crappy details which are horrible to individually paint, the faces are not the focal point but rather the shields(fail)! Yeah you call it technically advanced I call them a model Design mess. Looking at the champ sprue its a full figure piece split/sliced in 3 very awkward angles (ridiculous), thats very poor no mater how you want to say this sprue design is good.
Not enjoyable to paint or build and all faces look like sucking on lemons!
Aesthetic was what I was really talking about but you went on a tangent.


You speak with such authority when it's subjective. I really enjoyed building the Kruelboy models, the angles for the newer sculpts GW does is to hide joint lines, and it does very well at that. The larger beasts even had logs/planks that covered up the connection points of two larger flat areas to completely conceal the connection point. The mono-pose and "very awkward angles" may not be your cup of tea, but to call them anything but engineering successes is disingenuous, or at the very least naive to the intent of those design decisions.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504407.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504407.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
 Taarnak wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:
Well if its orcs on the starter I don't think they can do a worse job than Kruleboys. Truly awful lot.

And I think Kruleboys are the best Orks/Orcs they have ever done. lol Really not a fan of comedy orks with heads growing from their chests...

I think the Bretonnian and Tomb Kings stuff looks good. I also hope Bretonnians vs Tomb Kings is the way they go for the starter set.


Agreed, the Kruleboyz are the best Orc models that GW have ever produced. I can understand not being a fan of the aesthetic, but they are objectively technically excellent sculpts, so calling them "truly awful" is a truly awful take.

Anyway, I'm getting excited for Brets, they can't come soon enough!


We're at the point that we're attempting to correct personal taste, eh?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504408.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504408.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 NAVARRO wrote:

I will call them what I want thank you, Sir. Besides just because a mini is flooded with crappy details which are horrible to individually paint, the faces are not the focal point but rather the shields(fail)! Yeah you call it technically advanced I call them a model Design mess. Looking at the champ sprue its a full figure piece split/sliced in 3 very awkward angles (ridiculous), thats very poor no mater how you want to say this sprue design is good.
Not enjoyable to paint or build and all faces look like sucking on lemons!
Aesthetic was what I was really talking about but you went on a tangent.

You can like them, or not, but recognize that your opinion is subjective. Just as mine is, which is what I was getting at.

I hate, hate, hate the aesthetics of the GW Ork/Orc. I like the aesthetics of the Kruleboyz. There was no tangent. We are discussing the same thing.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504411.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504411.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Tittliewinks22 wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:

I will call them what I want thank you, Sir. Besides just because a mini is flooded with crappy details which are horrible to individually paint, the faces are not the focal point but rather the shields(fail)! Yeah you call it technically advanced I call them a model Design mess. Looking at the champ sprue its a full figure piece split/sliced in 3 very awkward angles (ridiculous), thats very poor no mater how you want to say this sprue design is good.
Not enjoyable to paint or build and all faces look like sucking on lemons!
Aesthetic was what I was really talking about but you went on a tangent.


You speak with such authority when it's subjective.


That's it. Rather than them saying "I really didn't like the style that GW chose for the Kruleboys, I much prefered the older style of Orc!" or something similar, instead we get things like "truly awful", "crappy details" "fail!" "design mess"

I get that internet hyperbole is very much a real thing, but I really can't stand the somewhat childish notion that minis that we don't personally like are referred to as trash or similar insulting words.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Just Tony wrote:
 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
 Taarnak wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:
Well if its orcs on the starter I don't think they can do a worse job than Kruleboys. Truly awful lot.

And I think Kruleboys are the best Orks/Orcs they have ever done. lol Really not a fan of comedy orks with heads growing from their chests...

I think the Bretonnian and Tomb Kings stuff looks good. I also hope Bretonnians vs Tomb Kings is the way they go for the starter set.


Agreed, the Kruleboyz are the best Orc models that GW have ever produced. I can understand not being a fan of the aesthetic, but they are objectively technically excellent sculpts, so calling them "truly awful" is a truly awful take.

Anyway, I'm getting excited for Brets, they can't come soon enough!


We're at the point that we're attempting to correct personal taste, eh?


No, not at all.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504412.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504412.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Tittliewinks22 wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:

I will call them what I want thank you, Sir. Besides just because a mini is flooded with crappy details which are horrible to individually paint, the faces are not the focal point but rather the shields(fail)! Yeah you call it technically advanced I call them a model Design mess. Looking at the champ sprue its a full figure piece split/sliced in 3 very awkward angles (ridiculous), thats very poor no mater how you want to say this sprue design is good.
Not enjoyable to paint or build and all faces look like sucking on lemons!
Aesthetic was what I was really talking about but you went on a tangent.


You speak with such authority when it's subjective. I really enjoyed building the Kruelboy models, the angles for the newer sculpts GW does is to hide joint lines, and it does very well at that. The larger beasts even had logs/planks that covered up the connection points of two larger flat areas to completely conceal the connection point. The mono-pose and "very awkward angles" may not be your cup of tea, but to call them anything but engineering successes is disingenuous, or at the very least naive to the intent of those design decisions.


Excuse me? If it's subjective and Im speaking with such "authority" how come you are patronising me with your "knowledge of design decisions"?
Taste is subjective, design preference is subjective, enjoyment building and painting mono posed overcrowded messy design is subjective...
What's not subjective for me personally is my dislike for these models for the reasons explained... I could care less if they compromise my enjoyment for the sake of hiding joints ( ON TOP OF SHOULDERPADS only worse than that is splitting the head in half). Sprues are sliced and monopose for many reasons not just what you think they are.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504413.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504413.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Taarnak wrote:

You can like them, or not, but recognize that your opinion is subjective. Just as mine is, which is what I was inferring.

I hate, hate, hate the aesthetics of the GW Ork/Orc. I like the aesthetics of the Kruleboyz. There was no tangent. We are discussing the same thing.


100% agree. The Kruleboyz are some of the most flavorable orcs GW has made...ever. But then again, I prefer the old Rackham orcs...stooped over citadel aesthetic beefed up and dangerous.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504414.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504414.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
Tittliewinks22 wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:

I will call them what I want thank you, Sir. Besides just because a mini is flooded with crappy details which are horrible to individually paint, the faces are not the focal point but rather the shields(fail)! Yeah you call it technically advanced I call them a model Design mess. Looking at the champ sprue its a full figure piece split/sliced in 3 very awkward angles (ridiculous), thats very poor no mater how you want to say this sprue design is good.
Not enjoyable to paint or build and all faces look like sucking on lemons!
Aesthetic was what I was really talking about but you went on a tangent.


You speak with such authority when it's subjective.


That's it. Rather than them saying "I really didn't like the style that GW chose for the Kruleboys, I much prefered the older style of Orc!" or something similar, instead we get things like "truly awful", "crappy details" "fail!" "design mess"

I get that internet hyperbole is very much a real thing, but I really can't stand the somewhat childish notion that minis that we don't personally like are referred to as trash or similar insulting words.




I insulted the Kruleboys? Dude your sole post is insulting my personal opinion on toys... Just count the adjectives you personally labeled me and look at yourself first.
*disclaimer - No harm intended at the Orruk race called Kruelboys. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504416.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504416.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! AoS-ification of ToW.

GW will want to keep those IPs separate and consequently they will likely have different design philosophies. AoS was purpose-built to look and work differently from WHFB, so reversing this course would make little sense to me.

On the other hand, there are some GW-greenlit designs in Total War: Warhammer that are cause for some concern, as are some of the late End Times releases, so it remains to be seen how this turns out.

I'll just say that the recently published renders seem fairly consistent in design with WHFB. Contrary to the above, I can see cities of sigmar becoming a tie-in to ToW Empire design-wise, maybe even as a 1:1 equivalent and stepping stone for people who want to branch out from AoS into ToW. Seraphon and Vampires are largely ready for ToW as they are.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504417.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504417.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 NAVARRO wrote:
 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
Tittliewinks22 wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:

I will call them what I want thank you, Sir. Besides just because a mini is flooded with crappy details which are horrible to individually paint, the faces are not the focal point but rather the shields(fail)! Yeah you call it technically advanced I call them a model Design mess. Looking at the champ sprue its a full figure piece split/sliced in 3 very awkward angles (ridiculous), thats very poor no mater how you want to say this sprue design is good.
Not enjoyable to paint or build and all faces look like sucking on lemons!
Aesthetic was what I was really talking about but you went on a tangent.


You speak with such authority when it's subjective.


That's it. Rather than them saying "I really didn't like the style that GW chose for the Kruleboys, I much prefered the older style of Orc!" or something similar, instead we get things like "truly awful", "crappy details" "fail!" "design mess"

I get that internet hyperbole is very much a real thing, but I really can't stand the somewhat childish notion that minis that we don't personally like are referred to as trash or similar insulting words.




I insulted the Kruleboys? Dude your sole post is insulting my personal opinion on toys... Just count the adjectives you personally labeled me and look at yourself first.
*disclaimer - No harm intended at the Orruk race called Kruelboys.


No, I'm not attacking your personal taste, I'm saying that I dislike how you word it. I find it (not you) childish.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504420.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504420.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:
 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
Tittliewinks22 wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:

I will call them what I want thank you, Sir. Besides just because a mini is flooded with crappy details which are horrible to individually paint, the faces are not the focal point but rather the shields(fail)! Yeah you call it technically advanced I call them a model Design mess. Looking at the champ sprue its a full figure piece split/sliced in 3 very awkward angles (ridiculous), thats very poor no mater how you want to say this sprue design is good.
Not enjoyable to paint or build and all faces look like sucking on lemons!
Aesthetic was what I was really talking about but you went on a tangent.


You speak with such authority when it's subjective.


That's it. Rather than them saying "I really didn't like the style that GW chose for the Kruleboys, I much prefered the older style of Orc!" or something similar, instead we get things like "truly awful", "crappy details" "fail!" "design mess"

I get that internet hyperbole is very much a real thing, but I really can't stand the somewhat childish notion that minis that we don't personally like are referred to as trash or similar insulting words.




I insulted the Kruleboys? Dude your sole post is insulting my personal opinion on toys... Just count the adjectives you personally labeled me and look at yourself first.
*disclaimer - No harm intended at the Orruk race called Kruelboys.


No, I'm not attacking your personal taste, I'm saying that I dislike how you word it. I find it (not you) childish.


Last one for its you getting OT, and you find justifiable and totally OK saying my opinion is awful and addressed childish like while you say it's insulting or feel insulted me describing an orc mini as awful. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504425.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504425.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 NAVARRO wrote:


Last one for its you getting OT, and you find justifiable and totally OK saying my opinion is awful and addressed childish like while you say it's insulting or feel insulted me describing an orc mini as awful.


No buddy, I'm not saying that your opinion is awful.

I'm saying that there are better ways to word it.

But I totally agree, we are way off topic ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504431.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504431.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Tsagualsa wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:
Well if its orcs on the starter I don't think they can do a worse job than Kruleboys. Truly awful lot.


I like both the Kruleboys and OBR for their '80/90s fantasy paperback cover pastel-coloured hallucination' aesthetics, they look like they stepped out of a Blanche painting or some Heavy Metal album cover. They are truely 'retro', faux-nostalgic for a past version of themselves that never existed. They look like Warhammer Fantasy Battles would have looked in the 80s if today's technology had existed back then, if that makes any sense.


GW probably wouldn't have survived as long as it has if the Orcs/Tomb Kings/Vampire Counts looked like OBR or Kruleboys let's be real.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504434.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504434.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Taarnak wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:

I will call them what I want thank you, Sir. Besides just because a mini is flooded with crappy details which are horrible to individually paint, the faces are not the focal point but rather the shields(fail)! Yeah you call it technically advanced I call them a model Design mess. Looking at the champ sprue its a full figure piece split/sliced in 3 very awkward angles (ridiculous), thats very poor no mater how you want to say this sprue design is good.
Not enjoyable to paint or build and all faces look like sucking on lemons!
Aesthetic was what I was really talking about but you went on a tangent.

You can like them, or not, but recognize that your opinion is subjective. Just as mine is, which is what I was getting at.

I hate, hate, hate the aesthetics of the GW Ork/Orc. I like the aesthetics of the Kruleboyz. There was no tangent. We are discussing the same thing.


Tangent was the post I quoted not what you said.
Tangent was me saying I find that Lot of minis awful (initially was talking just how they look) and then tangent was people saying you cant say that because design is an "achievement"...
Yes all personal opinions are subjective no news there.

I do wonder how O&G will be in Old world and I expect them to make Orcs like they used to and not like AoS Kruleboys. I think Old world Orcs may well be the update I was so eagerly waiting for in AoS.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504437.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504437.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 BertBert wrote:
I'm not too worried about the possible AoS-ification of ToW.

GW will want to keep those IPs separate and consequently they will likely have different design philosophies. AoS was purpose-built to look and work differently from WHFB, so reversing this course would make little sense to me.

On the other hand, there are some GW-greenlit designs in Total War: Warhammer that are cause for some concern, as are some of the late End Times releases, so it remains to be seen how this turns out.

I'll just say that the recently published renders seem fairly consistent in design with WHFB. Contrary to the above, I can see cities of sigmar becoming a tie-in to ToW Empire design-wise, maybe even as a 1:1 equivalent and stepping stone for people who want to branch out from AoS into ToW. Seraphon and Vampires are largely ready for ToW as they are.



What TW:W designs are you referring to?

I don't think there's any reason to be concerned about it, really. Model-wise perhaps we'll get some of the over-the-top poses and such, but in terms of aesthetics the stuff shown this week and the artwork from a while back suggests they're not going to change the core look of anything to a significant degree. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504441.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504441.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! flinging that happened here when the kislev concept art was shown and a loud portion were shouting about it looking OTT/flanderized for fantasy. I rather liked them myself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BertBert wrote:
I'm not too worried about the possible AoS-ification of ToW.

GW will want to keep those IPs separate and consequently they will likely have different design philosophies. AoS was purpose-built to look and work differently from WHFB, so reversing this course would make little sense to me.

On the other hand, there are some GW-greenlit designs in Total War: Warhammer that are cause for some concern, as are some of the late End Times releases, so it remains to be seen how this turns out.

I'll just say that the recently published renders seem fairly consistent in design with WHFB. Contrary to the above, I can see cities of sigmar becoming a tie-in to ToW Empire design-wise, maybe even as a 1:1 equivalent and stepping stone for people who want to branch out from AoS into ToW. Seraphon and Vampires are largely ready for ToW as they are.



I don't really see that. The Seraphon in particular you can tell haven't been designed with ranking in mind. The Saurus especially with outstretched arms and wide stances. The cities stuff as well really shares little design cues from empire if you actually compare what has been seen.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504446.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504446.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Probably referring to the flinging that happened here when the kislev concept art was shown and a loud portion were shouting about it looking OTT/flanderized for fantasy. I rather liked them myself.


I assumed it was that but that stuff is in-line with how Kislev has been depicted before.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504451.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504451.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Mentlegen324 wrote:

What TW:W designs are you referring to?


Mostly the giant elemental ice Bears, war sleds and elemental ice weapons on the elemental ice guard.

Cathay was surprisingly grounded overall (except for the montgolfieres ), but I'm not a fan of the characters morphing into dragons. That seems to be a bit high on the power scale for humans.

Chaos dwarves also get the obligatory giant demon engine despite having lots of center piece units already. While I acknowledge the demand for it, I dislike this tendency to always go bigger.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:


I don't really see that. The Seraphon in particular you can tell haven't been designed with ranking in mind. The Saurus especially with outstretched arms and wide stances. The cities stuff as well really shares little design cues from empire if you actually compare what has been seen.


Agreed, ranking will be a problem if they don't upscale their bases. I've seen the new Chaos warriors ranked up with a bit of clever positioning though, so it won't be impossible for Saurus either. In any case, I was referring to their designs, which haven't changed one bit from their classic depiction. Salamanders are back to the classic dimetrodon design, slann/kroak haven't changed either and the new eoraptor riders are basically new skink cavalry.

There hasn't been much on Cities of Sigmar as far as I'm aware, but the arsenal preview would slot perfectly into an earlier empire setting, with more primitive muskets and otherwise fairly generic medieval/renaissance melee weapons. CoS might become their own thing altogether, it's just a hunch.



]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504491.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504491.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW stated that all old armies would be immediately playable. Which won't be true if they start messing with the base sizes.

On the chaos side of things, the obvious problem there is that the new ones carry AoS specific elements, such as Stormcast helmet trophies. So even if you can rank them up, they're not fantasy agnostic.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504506.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504506.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
and if it goes the way of all GW games, that you should use the base the model came with, all old armies are playable at the beginning, it just will change as time goes by]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504513.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504513.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 kodos wrote:
There were never really rules for base sizes in the first place, so there is a high chance that there won't be some this time

and if it goes the way of all GW games, that you should use the base the model came with, all old armies are playable at the beginning, it just will change as time goes by


Quite a few editions of fantasy had very clear and specific rules for base sizes (I certainly wouldn't have rebased 80 ungor twice without rules). The 'whatever' is more recent and mostly 40k. (AoS started without it to try to ease the transition, but I'm pretty sure there's documented 'right size' now).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504515.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504515.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Voss wrote:
 kodos wrote:
There were never really rules for base sizes in the first place, so there is a high chance that there won't be some this time

and if it goes the way of all GW games, that you should use the base the model came with, all old armies are playable at the beginning, it just will change as time goes by


Quite a few editions of fantasy had very clear and specific rules for base sizes. The 'whatever' is more recent and mostly 40k. (AoS started without it to try to ease the transition, but I'm pretty sure there's documented 'right size' now).


I distinctly remember huge tables of 'suggested' base sizes published in WD now and then, probably mostly for the tournament scene.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504518.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504518.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 NAVARRO wrote:


Tangent was the post I quoted not what you said.
Tangent was me saying I find that Lot of minis awful (initially was talking just how they look) and then tangent was people saying you cant say that because design is an "achievement"...
Yes all personal opinions are subjective no news there.

I do wonder how O&G will be in Old world and I expect them to make Orcs like they used to and not like AoS Kruleboys. I think Old world Orcs may well be the update I was so eagerly waiting for in AoS.

My mistake then.

I would expect Orcs and Goblins to resemble the old world Orcs and Goblins. I imagine there will be some updates, but within the same aesthetic. Kinda like what was done with the Killteam Orks for 40K. I can't see them deviating as much as the Kruleboyz did.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504524.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504524.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Goose LeChance wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:
Well if its orcs on the starter I don't think they can do a worse job than Kruleboys. Truly awful lot.


I wouldn't trust them with anything, the people who made WHFB what it was are gone. All the new 40K stuff looks exactly like AoS because it's all the same sculptors with the same training and the same orders from the top.

This is why BFG is the last hope, it's nearly impossible to mess up the ship design unless they start putting 'my little pony heads' on the front.





Same except 40k stuff is lot less imaginative. Aos is where interesting sculpts arb.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 KidCthulhu wrote:
MvR wrote:
These new releases are quite interesting for what they potentially reveal about the number of models that will come in boxes, which, in turn, could offer clues into how the game will be played.

The Bret release has six swords and one axe. Five of the swords are of the same size, one is bigger. Does this indicate that these knights will be released in boxes of five? The five smaller swords are for if you want your whole unit to match, and the bigger sword is one for your leader if you wish to build a command group.

Releasing the cavalry in sets of five certainly matches current GW policy regarding mounted units, and I think all of this hints at bigger base sizes - not much of a shock there - and smaller armies than were seen during Fantasy, especially at the end. It does however raise questions surrounding how the Bretonnians will play - will the lance formation still remain? Do I need to by two boxes of these knights to make a full usable unit? I think the second is unlikely, as they will want to make things as accessible as possible, and as much as GW likes to charge as much as they can, there is no incentive to pick up this stuff if to get one unit on the field you need two boxes.

As there are the options of lances, swords and axes for the Bretonnians, it perhaps suggests the weapon options will be the defining factor in how units may be different from each other, which may prevent a large amount of rule bloat and memorisation, but may make some factions feel very similar to each other.
What if they put six knights in a box? You could still do lance formation that way, right (first rank: 1 model, second rank: 2 models, third rank: 3 models)?


Or the lance formation isn't practical nightmare of 5th but 6e style.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NAVARRO wrote:
 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
 Taarnak wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:
Well if its orcs on the starter I don't think they can do a worse job than Kruleboys. Truly awful lot.

And I think Kruleboys are the best Orks/Orcs they have ever done. lol Really not a fan of comedy orks with heads growing from their chests...

I think the Bretonnian and Tomb Kings stuff looks good. I also hope Bretonnians vs Tomb Kings is the way they go for the starter set.


Agreed, the Kruleboyz are the best Orc models that GW have ever produced. I can understand not being a fan of the aesthetic, but they are objectively technically excellent sculpts, so calling them "truly awful" is a truly awful take.

Anyway, I'm getting excited for Brets, they can't come soon enough!


I will call them what I want thank you, Sir. Besides just because a mini is flooded with crappy details which are horrible to individually paint, the faces are not the focal point but rather the shields(fail)! Yeah you call it technically advanced I call them a model Design mess. Looking at the champ sprue its a full figure piece split/sliced in 3 very awkward angles (ridiculous), thats very poor no mater how you want to say this sprue design is good.
Not enjoyable to paint or build and all faces look like sucking on lemons!
Aesthetic was what I was really talking about but you went on a tangent.


Well if you want to pay arms and teeth for simple no detall models world is full of them.

Kruleboyz is child's play to paint though. Practically paints themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote:
 kodos wrote:
There were never really rules for base sizes in the first place, so there is a high chance that there won't be some this time

and if it goes the way of all GW games, that you should use the base the model came with, all old armies are playable at the beginning, it just will change as time goes by


Quite a few editions of fantasy had very clear and specific rules for base sizes (I certainly wouldn't have rebased 80 ungor twice without rules). The 'whatever' is more recent and mostly 40k. (AoS started without it to try to ease the transition, but I'm pretty sure there's documented 'right size' now).


No base sizes in fb army books.

Gw has never had anything more than suggestions. Any rules been 3rd party house rules]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504539.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504539.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Voss wrote:
 kodos wrote:
There were never really rules for base sizes in the first place, so there is a high chance that there won't be some this time
and if it goes the way of all GW games, that you should use the base the model came with, all old armies are playable at the beginning, it just will change as time goes by

Quite a few editions of fantasy had very clear and specific rules for base sizes (I certainly wouldn't have rebased 80 ungor twice without rules). The 'whatever' is more recent and mostly 40k. (AoS started without it to try to ease the transition, but I'm pretty sure there's documented 'right size' now).
well there was a base size and unit strength chart in chronicles 3 I think (and for download I guess) during but there were no rules neither in the Rulebook or Armybooks of 6th and 7th (and also non in ravening hordes)

That Ungors got back on 20mm base in 8th was simply because the new box came with 20mm bases and tournaments ruled that 20mm must be used
the only 8th Edition base size charts are community made, and there was never an official one]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504550.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504550.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 BertBert wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:

What TW:W designs are you referring to?

Cathay was surprisingly grounded overall (except for the montgolfieres ), but I'm not a fan of the characters morphing into dragons. That seems to be a bit high on the power scale for humans.


They're actually dragons that take the form of humans, as a method of ruling over their human subjects. Can't say I'm a massive fan of shapeshifting dragons and how they put the Lizardmen in the shade as the oldest/most powerful non Chaos actors on the planet but it's definitely not a case of overpowered humans. When Cathay (hopefully) gets a second pass over, be it through TOW 2e or whatever, if they darken up the background a little and make the dragons less altruistic and Cathay as a nation more grimdark, I think Cathay will fit into the vibe of the game rather well. It's like 3e Tau all over again.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504602.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504602.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Londinium wrote:


They're actually dragons that take the form of humans, as a method of ruling over their human subjects. Can't say I'm a massive fan of shapeshifting dragons and how they put the Lizardmen in the shade as the oldest/most powerful non Chaos actors on the planet but it's definitely not a case of overpowered humans. When Cathay (hopefully) gets a second pass over, be it through TOW 2e or whatever, if they darken up the background a little and make the dragons less altruistic and Cathay as a nation more grimdark, I think Cathay will fit into the vibe of the game rather well. It's like 3e Tau all over again.


I see, thanks for the clarification. I do like their general design and concepts, so I'm glad my main gripe with them turns out to be unwarranted.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504643.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504643.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Londinium wrote:

They're actually dragons that take the form of humans, as a method of ruling over their human subjects. Can't say I'm a massive fan of shapeshifting dragons and how they put the Lizardmen in the shade as the oldest/most powerful non Chaos actors on the planet but it's definitely not a case of overpowered humans.

As far as I can find, it has always been the case that the Dragons were the original inhabitants of the old world. The Old Ones/Slann basically invaded and took over during a hibernation cycle then forced the truly ancient Dragons to remain asleep by changing the planet’s orbit to bring it closer to the sun. You can see bits of this in the lore of the high elves and Lizardmen but it should also be telling that the most ancient breed of Chaos children are the dragon ogres.

As for the grimderpification, it’s entirely unnecessary; they’re already absentee despotic rulers who’ve abandoned their power to the care of their inexperienced children, except even the traditional way out from under the thumb of such a system is unavailable because they’re dragons and thus not particularly susceptible to the assassin’s knife. They exert absolute control of their populace, directing their entire economy and society towards war in a way the Imperium of Man would look at with envy, which only seems even slightly reasonable because of the clear and present existential threat on their northern border. Guarantee they’ve got “secret” and actually secret police all over, with all the corruption and abuse that implies. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504660.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504660.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Taarnak 807983 11504524 wrote:

I would expect Orcs and Goblins to resemble the old world Orcs and Goblins. I imagine there will be some updates, but within the same aesthetic. Kinda like what was done with the Killteam Orks for 40K. I can't see them deviating as much as the Kruleboyz did.


If GW do want to use any existing AOS kits to fill out Old World armies they could use some of the Kruleboyz units to represent Hobgoblins. I wonder how east we'll go, and if Cathay and Kislev get versions of their Total War armies?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504706.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504706.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504713.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504713.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
bobthe4th wrote:
Taarnak 807983 11504524 wrote:

I would expect Orcs and Goblins to resemble the old world Orcs and Goblins. I imagine there will be some updates, but within the same aesthetic. Kinda like what was done with the Killteam Orks for 40K. I can't see them deviating as much as the Kruleboyz did.


If GW do want to use any existing AOS kits to fill out Old World armies they could use some of the Kruleboyz units to represent Hobgoblins. I wonder how east we'll go, and if Cathay and Kislev get versions of their Total War armies?


Cathay and Kislev in Total War have been designed in concert with GW with the explicit intent that they'll be incorporated into The Old World at some point.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504735.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504735.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
Vulcan wrote:
... Okay, that's fair.


Don't worry, I was agreeing with you. "This ornament to be placed on a human's head would actually be fashioned by a master blacksmith out of a dirty great chunk of iron!"

"OoOoh, down I go!" moaned Sir Molman.

Tittliewinks22 wrote:to call them anything but engineering successes...


Regardless of anything else, is that really the highest praise, or the first that springs to mind, that might be applicable to gaming minis?

Undead_Love-Machine wrote:but I really can't stand the somewhat childish notion that minis that we don't personally like are referred to as trash or similar insulting words.


Regardless of anything else... don't tie your identity to corporate plastic toy products so much so that criticism of them is 'insulting' to you.

I don't know if any of the rest of you know, but Navarro here is a good sculptor in his own right. I'll keep my own opinion of what's a good mini, but his skill makes me consider his a little more.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504769.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504769.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Vermis wrote:


Undead_Love-Machine wrote:but I really can't stand the somewhat childish notion that minis that we don't personally like are referred to as trash or similar insulting words.


Regardless of anything else... don't tie your identity to corporate plastic toy products so much so that criticism of them is 'insulting' to you.
.


You seem to have misunderstood, let me put it to you in a way that's easier for you to understand.

If you're going to critique miniatures, it's my personal preference that you don't do it in the manner of a 12 year old.

Regardless, this wasn't directed at you, so I have no idea why you responded.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504777.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504777.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Problem with that line of thinking is that right at the start of this GW stated that all old armies would be immediately playable. Which won't be true if they start messing with the base sizes.

On the chaos side of things, the obvious problem there is that the new ones carry AoS specific elements, such as Stormcast helmet trophies. So even if you can rank them up, they're not fantasy agnostic.


Good point, I wasn't aware of the SC elements. There are definitely still quite a few unknown factors in all this and I'm genuinely curious how they will bring all of this together.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504780.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504780.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Mr_Rose wrote:
 Londinium wrote:

They're actually dragons that take the form of humans, as a method of ruling over their human subjects. Can't say I'm a massive fan of shapeshifting dragons and how they put the Lizardmen in the shade as the oldest/most powerful non Chaos actors on the planet but it's definitely not a case of overpowered humans.

As far as I can find, it has always been the case that the Dragons were the original inhabitants of the old world. The Old Ones/Slann basically invaded and took over during a hibernation cycle then forced the truly ancient Dragons to remain asleep by changing the planet’s orbit to bring it closer to the sun. You can see bits of this in the lore of the high elves and Lizardmen but it should also be telling that the most ancient breed of Chaos children are the dragon ogres.

As for the grimderpification, it’s entirely unnecessary; they’re already absentee despotic rulers who’ve abandoned their power to the care of their inexperienced children, except even the traditional way out from under the thumb of such a system is unavailable because they’re dragons and thus not particularly susceptible to the assassin’s knife. They exert absolute control of their populace, directing their entire economy and society towards war in a way the Imperium of Man would look at with envy, which only seems even slightly reasonable because of the clear and present existential threat on their northern border. Guarantee they’ve got “secret” and actually secret police all over, with all the corruption and abuse that implies.


Yeah the dragons always have predated the Old Ones but I preferred it when they just animals like forest dragons etc, not civilisation building shapeshifting pseudo-gods.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504789.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504789.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 BertBert wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:

What TW:W designs are you referring to?


Mostly the giant elemental ice Bears, war sleds and elemental ice weapons on the elemental ice guard.


All something in-line with how Kislev was before that, really. The spirit of kislev represented by a giant bear, spirits in magical ice bodies, bears as a relatively common trained creature, and magic ice weapons and/or ice enchantments were all something we'd seen already, although I would say that the sled being covered in ice magic rather than just being a sled was a bit much. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504816.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504816.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Londinium wrote:
 Mr_Rose wrote:
 Londinium wrote:

They're actually dragons that take the form of humans, as a method of ruling over their human subjects. Can't say I'm a massive fan of shapeshifting dragons and how they put the Lizardmen in the shade as the oldest/most powerful non Chaos actors on the planet but it's definitely not a case of overpowered humans.

As far as I can find, it has always been the case that the Dragons were the original inhabitants of the old world. The Old Ones/Slann basically invaded and took over during a hibernation cycle then forced the truly ancient Dragons to remain asleep by changing the planet’s orbit to bring it closer to the sun. You can see bits of this in the lore of the high elves and Lizardmen but it should also be telling that the most ancient breed of Chaos children are the dragon ogres.

As for the grimderpification, it’s entirely unnecessary; they’re already absentee despotic rulers who’ve abandoned their power to the care of their inexperienced children, except even the traditional way out from under the thumb of such a system is unavailable because they’re dragons and thus not particularly susceptible to the assassin’s knife. They exert absolute control of their populace, directing their entire economy and society towards war in a way the Imperium of Man would look at with envy, which only seems even slightly reasonable because of the clear and present existential threat on their northern border. Guarantee they’ve got “secret” and actually secret police all over, with all the corruption and abuse that implies.


Yeah the dragons always have predated the Old Ones but I preferred it when they just animals like forest dragons etc, not civilisation building shapeshifting pseudo-gods.

They were never “just animals” though. All the ones the Elves associated with were fully sapient and had to agree to be ridden, except for the ones the Dark Elves drove mad with dark magic in the shell.
Even back when Dwarves were allowed to ally in a random/rogue dragon it was always described as a bargain struck between equals, one that had to be stuck to or the ally would disappear/raze a fort or two for the insult. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504819.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504819.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
All something in-line with how Kislev was before that, really. The spirit of kislev represented by a giant bear, spirits in magical ice bodies, bears as a relatively common trained creature, and magic ice weapons and/or ice enchantments were all something we'd seen already, although I would say that the sled being covered in ice magic rather than just being a sled was a bit much.


It is absolutely in-line with Kislev, but I find it too narrowly focused on a single motif. I'd have preferred Kislev to be expanded in scope and concept instead, if that makes sense.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504826.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504826.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
You seem to have misunderstood, let me put it to you in a way that's easier for you to understand.





If you're going to critique miniatures, it's my personal preference that you don't do it in the manner of a 12 year old.


After he said 'truly awful'.

Yes, yes, I get it. Thank you for helping me understand.

Regardless, this wasn't directed at you, so I have no idea why you responded.


I've wandered into someone's PMs by mistake. Help! Help! I don't understand! I'm trapped in here!

Mentlegen324 wrote:
All something in-line with how Kislev was before that, really. The spirit of kislev represented by a giant bear, spirits in magical ice bodies, bears as a relatively common trained creature, and magic ice weapons and/or ice enchantments were all something we'd seen already, although I would say that the sled being covered in ice magic rather than just being a sled was a bit much.


Against all odds I think I still have the 6th Ed Kislev supplement about here somewhere. I would need to check - I beg your understanding - but I remember an Ice Queen sorceress* and a named character with a bear. Heck if I know what came in earlier editions, but I understood the ice weapons showed up in the earliest TOW concept art.

Anyway, yeah, I understand it's like the flanderisation of a space marine chapter with a certain wolfish theme that shall remain nameless. There's an ice queen, and a single bear, so then we've got to have her casting icy spells on weapons and more guys on bears, and before long we've got rymeshard swyrds, spyrs and halbyrds, icyspycycle golems, bears as heavy cavalry, bears pulling chariots, bears for fast skirmishing bowmen, bears lugging the camp wagons, bears and cats, living together...!

At least, such would be my understanding.

* Let it go, let it gooo, a man can have his say-ay-ay... let it go, let it gooo, do you understand that way-ay-ay...?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504845.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504845.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! Knock off the arguing about nothing or get a ban. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504857.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11504857.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! https://youtu.be/kCQL4eaRqWo

Some more rumors are floating around, mostly about more news coming soon.

Kislev vs Chaos starter set but possibly bretonnia vs Tomb Kings.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11507041.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11507041.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! TK sounds plausible considering they have some of the most sought-after kits these days. Could be an attempt to immediately fulfil that demand and hit the ground running with ToW. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11507049.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11507049.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 triplegrim wrote:
https://youtu.be/kCQL4eaRqWo

Some more rumors are floating around, mostly about more news coming soon.

Kislev vs Chaos starter set but possibly bretonnia vs Tomb Kings.



Of both of these, Kislev vs. Chaos seems to be the more likely to me, because it mirrors the looming conflict of the Great War that this setting is operating under. But who knows, GW certainly has shown more stuff for Brets and TK, so we may be in for a suprise. But then again, both armies are 'expert' tier and TK have a lot of weird special rules that make them less-well suited for a starter box, but on the other hand TOW is an expert product...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11507050.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11507050.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! TK than when we last saw them in WFB.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11507057.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11507057.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World.
 Vermis wrote:

Mentlegen324 wrote:
All something in-line with how Kislev was before that, really. The spirit of kislev represented by a giant bear, spirits in magical ice bodies, bears as a relatively common trained creature, and magic ice weapons and/or ice enchantments were all something we'd seen already, although I would say that the sled being covered in ice magic rather than just being a sled was a bit much.


Against all odds I think I still have the 6th Ed Kislev supplement about here somewhere. I would need to check - I beg your understanding - but I remember an Ice Queen sorceress* and a named character with a bear. Heck if I know what came in earlier editions, but I understood the ice weapons showed up in the earliest TOW concept art.

Anyway, yeah, I understand it's like the flanderisation of a space marine chapter with a certain wolfish theme that shall remain nameless. There's an ice queen, and a single bear, so then we've got to have her casting icy spells on weapons and more guys on bears, and before long we've got rymeshard swyrds, spyrs and halbyrds, icyspycycle golems, bears as heavy cavalry, bears pulling chariots, bears for fast skirmishing bowmen, bears lugging the camp wagons, bears and cats, living together...!

At least, such would be my understanding.



There was more of the fantastical stuff for Kislev than just that before TW:W3 had them:


4th edition Warhammer Armies: The empire, released in 1993 (...or 1996? Found both dates), has Kislev included but is very brief. They are depicted as more of a grounded human faction at this stage, but it's very, very brief; it basically amounts to a small amount of lore of pretty much "There's a place called Kislev" and 3-4 units. Winged Lancers, Katarin etc. Mentions Kislev is ruled by warrior-sorcerers with their magic based on the land itself and Frost/ice focused. Magic Ice Hawks, Ice Bridge that can carry units, Fearfrost as a magic frost sword etc. Art of Boris Usra riding a bear is shown, albeit it seems he isn't actually talked about at all so appears to not be a character...just a guy riding a bear. Also unclear if this is meant to be the same as Boris Ursus a few years later.

The 1996 Citadel Journal list had fantastical elements, including Bear mounts for heroes, Bear Cavalry, packs of bears and Baba Yaga. Common later lore things like their bear god, bears being sacred etc are mentioned here as similar to later lore but i'm unsure what was and wasn't already established in more "official" sources before this article, so while it's debatable as to how canonical the stuff here is (Citadel Journal is an official publication, but people could submit stuff), some of the things included here did also appear in definitely more official sources - I'm just unsure when specifically some of that first appeared and what is and isn't already established for them by the time this article was written.

Their Warmaster army list in 2002, had packs of tamed bears and bear mounts and a spell to transform into a giant bear (and mentions they build temples in which they keep pits full of bears to send out to war). That old art of Boris Ursa on a bear appears again.

The Ambassador series, Written by Graham Mcneill in 2003/2004, supposedly had those mystical fantasy elements included - Katarina apparently summons spirits of Kislev warriors in bodies of ice, for example. Bokha palace also has parts entire sections made of ice.

Their 6th edition army in 2003 did not have much in the way of that side of things, mostly just Boris Ursus as the most out-there in terms of units, albeit the book did depict conversions of both a hero on giant bear and bear cavalry. Their connection to various spirits are mentioned but its unclear as to if they book considers them as real or not. It mentions the religion involving bears with a God of Bears who takes the form of a bear - so despite the lack of bear units, bears are still said to be a very important thing to Kislev overall. Magical lore for different Gods are mentioned. The palace having sections made of ice are mentioned by the book too.

The Warhammer RPG "Realm of the Ice Queen" expansion released in 2007 once again follows the fantasy Kislev side and is the most comprehensive depiction of Kislev out of the lot - because its an RPG there's a lot of stuff. The various spirits mentioned previously are defined more specifically, there's magical creatures like Frostfiends and Firebirds, Hag Witches (like Baba Yaga was) are there, the map of the city of Kislev shows Bokha palace with the ice structure parts, Katarina has the enchanted Ice Palace, it details the importance of the Ice Witches, all the ice magic like ice weapons, the other cults/gods appear again with magic for them etc.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11507062.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11507062.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
The smallest base size will be 25 mm

Tomb Kings skeletons, horse riders, chariots are comming back, aswell as Bretonnian men-at-arms, long bowmen and plastic knight kit.

Stater set will be Tomb Kings vs Bretonnians

And there are going to be new models aswell for both sides


This is said to be coming from some UK sources, that he was talking to.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11509905.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11509905.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11509907.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11509907.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 herjan1987 wrote:
I run a small news page for Warhammer The old World and one of my followers, who was at Adepticon said the following information about the game:

The smallest base size will be 25 mm

Tomb Kings skeletons, horse riders, chariots are comming back, aswell as Bretonnian men-at-arms, long bowmen and plastic knight kit.

Stater set will be Tomb Kings vs Bretonnians

And there are going to be new models aswell for both sides


This is said to be coming from some UK sources, that he was talking to.


Tomb Kings skeletons coming back would completely ruin any interest I have in them. Well, old kits for both, really. There’s a reason I didn’t start either of them when WHFB was still around, because they still had a lot of old models. That was like 10+ years ago. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11509916.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11509916.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 ImAGeek wrote:
 herjan1987 wrote:
I run a small news page for Warhammer The old World and one of my followers, who was at Adepticon said the following information about the game:

The smallest base size will be 25 mm

Tomb Kings skeletons, horse riders, chariots are comming back, aswell as Bretonnian men-at-arms, long bowmen and plastic knight kit.

Stater set will be Tomb Kings vs Bretonnians

And there are going to be new models aswell for both sides


This is said to be coming from some UK sources, that he was talking to.


Tomb Kings skeletons coming back would completely ruin any interest I have in them. Well, old kits for both, really. There’s a reason I didn’t start either of them when WHFB was still around, because they still had a lot of old models. That was like 10+ years ago.


Surely this means new plastics for those listed kits. We already seen the knights' helms.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11509919.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11509919.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11509933.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11509933.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Chikout wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
 herjan1987 wrote:
I run a small news page for Warhammer The old World and one of my followers, who was at Adepticon said the following information about the game:

The smallest base size will be 25 mm

Tomb Kings skeletons, horse riders, chariots are comming back, aswell as Bretonnian men-at-arms, long bowmen and plastic knight kit.

Stater set will be Tomb Kings vs Bretonnians

And there are going to be new models aswell for both sides


This is said to be coming from some UK sources, that he was talking to.


Tomb Kings skeletons coming back would completely ruin any interest I have in them. Well, old kits for both, really. There’s a reason I didn’t start either of them when WHFB was still around, because they still had a lot of old models. That was like 10+ years ago.


Surely this means new plastics for those listed kits. We already seen the knights' helms.


Yep, no way are they bringing these old disgusting kits back. That would kill tow in the egg ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11509938.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11509938.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 nathan2004 wrote:
I just read on another rumor site that it’s projected to drop in November/December time frame. Interesting.


I said it before, but it bears repeating: they'd be fools if they did not drop at least one box or a collectors edition book this year, as it is WHFBs 40th birthday. Even if the actual bulk of TOW releases much later next year, that's just an easy extra selling point to pick up, especially for christmas sales.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11509956.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11509956.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
If the no smaller than 25mm square is true, then IF I wind up playing Old World it will be solely with the models I have that already have 25mm bases. Unless, of course, those units get moved to 32mm or something asinine in which case I'll either find a group that isn't bothered by the smaller bases or I'll simply stick with 6th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 streetsamurai wrote:
Chikout wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
 herjan1987 wrote:
I run a small news page for Warhammer The old World and one of my followers, who was at Adepticon said the following information about the game:

The smallest base size will be 25 mm

Tomb Kings skeletons, horse riders, chariots are comming back, aswell as Bretonnian men-at-arms, long bowmen and plastic knight kit.

Stater set will be Tomb Kings vs Bretonnians

And there are going to be new models aswell for both sides


This is said to be coming from some UK sources, that he was talking to.


Tomb Kings skeletons coming back would completely ruin any interest I have in them. Well, old kits for both, really. There’s a reason I didn’t start either of them when WHFB was still around, because they still had a lot of old models. That was like 10+ years ago.


Surely this means new plastics for those listed kits. We already seen the knights' helms.


Yep, no way are they bringing these old disgusting kits back. That would kill tow in the egg



Not everybody agrees with you about the quality of the older kits. ESPECIALLY the Brets who didn't have a bad plastic set at all.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11509978.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11509978.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! TK starter "rumours" are just people going "look, they've shown new plastic, QED." And to be fair - it would seem strange for them to make and show them if they aren't planning on releasing them early on in the process.

But it just seems a weird choice for the starter.

I'd also be incredibly surprised if they brought back kits from 20~ years ago. Agree with those who think this would kill off the system before it even began.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11509986.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11509986.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 herjan1987 wrote:
I run a small news page for Warhammer The old World and one of my followers, who was at Adepticon said the following information about the game:
The smallest base size will be 25 mm

Well, if that's the case my (20mm square based) 400+ painted skeletons/zombies/ghouls, 300+ dwarves, 200+ goblins, etc, all tell GW that I'll be sticking with KoW.
No nostalgia money for you GW.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11509988.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11509988.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Just Tony wrote:


Not everybody agrees with you about the quality of the older kits. ESPECIALLY the Brets who didn't have a bad plastic set at all.


As ever, the subjectivity is paramount; personal opinion on the Brets is that the sixth edition sets were largely rubbish and inferior to their fifth edition predecessors.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11509989.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11509989.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
I'd love to see new knights though...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11509995.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11509995.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Chikout wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
 herjan1987 wrote:
I run a small news page for Warhammer The old World and one of my followers, who was at Adepticon said the following information about the game:

The smallest base size will be 25 mm

Tomb Kings skeletons, horse riders, chariots are comming back, aswell as Bretonnian men-at-arms, long bowmen and plastic knight kit.

Stater set will be Tomb Kings vs Bretonnians

And there are going to be new models aswell for both sides


This is said to be coming from some UK sources, that he was talking to.


Tomb Kings skeletons coming back would completely ruin any interest I have in them. Well, old kits for both, really. There’s a reason I didn’t start either of them when WHFB was still around, because they still had a lot of old models. That was like 10+ years ago.


Surely this means new plastics for those listed kits. We already seen the knights' helms.


I certainly hope so. ‘Coming back’ made me think returning kits. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510029.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510029.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Brets vs Tomb Kings strike me as a plausible starter for a couple of reasons:

- They provide a strong visual contrast
- Neither looks like anything AoS-related
- Both are in big demand on the WHFB second-hand market
- We have seen actual renders


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510040.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510040.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
I think that the Men-at-arms and bowmen hold up pretty well, I wouldn't mind at all if the kits return.

I'd love to see new knights though...


Of course with new kits comes for sure new kit prices. Just have to hope # of models needed isn't much bigger than AOS then with 10 models for 45€(or more) prices.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510041.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510041.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
tneva82 wrote:
 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
I think that the Men-at-arms and bowmen hold up pretty well, I wouldn't mind at all if the kits return.

I'd love to see new knights though...


Of course with new kits comes for sure new kit prices. Just have to hope # of models needed isn't much bigger than AOS then with 10 models for 45€(or more) prices.


Horus Heresy shows that GW is willing to do larger unit size infantry boxes which have higher sticker price translate to lower cost per model. See 10 man elite Terminators and 20 man infantry squads. Old World could do the same. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510048.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510048.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Gimgamgoo wrote:

Well, if that's the case my (20mm square based) 400+ painted skeletons/zombies/ghouls, 300+ dwarves, 200+ goblins, etc, all tell GW that I'll be sticking with KoW.
No nostalgia money for you GW.

This is the correct response. Everyone who moved on to other games after WHFB, don't for god's sake fall for GW telling you it's got a new hat.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510053.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510053.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510130.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510130.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510134.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510134.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 herjan1987 wrote:
I run a small news page for Warhammer The old World and one of my followers, who was at Adepticon said the following information about the game:

The smallest base size will be 25 mm


So our old minis on their old bases will still be obsolete then.

This isn't exactly blowing up my kilt, so to speak.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510139.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510139.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510141.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510141.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Keep your models on 20mm bases, put them on trays that give 4 of them a frontage of 100mm.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510142.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510142.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510155.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510155.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Bobug wrote:
Or like, you know, just play using your models on the old bases. It's not like James workshop is going to show up and cast your models into the void for a 5mm difference in diameter


This. If there are any base rules at all, it will most likely be "the ones the models came with". But I doubt even that will make it in considering GW hasn't done a base size rule or chart for nearly 2 decades.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510226.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510226.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Bobug wrote:
Or like, you know, just play using your models on the old bases. It's not like James workshop is going to show up and cast your models into the void for a 5mm difference in diameter


Squares a rectangles don't have diameters]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510241.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510241.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Just Tony wrote:
Bobug wrote:
Or like, you know, just play using your models on the old bases. It's not like James workshop is going to show up and cast your models into the void for a 5mm difference in diameter


Squares a rectangles don't have diameters


Have an exalt ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510243.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510243.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 nathan2004 wrote:
I don't understand the folks on here that say bringing back old kits is going to kill TOW...Making the old kits made to order is great for the folks (and clearly they are out there given the second hand market) who want to fill out/complete their army(armies) without having to pay out the teeth for it. Those who aren't fond of the old kits can just ignore the MtO and get the rules if they want to try the game out and wait for the new kits to drop. Which we all know will come....how is this a bad thing?


I can’t speak for others but you’re talking about bringing them back for a made to order (fine by me) where as I (hopefully mis)read the rumour as in bringing the old kits back permanently. The old kits were already the reason I didn’t do TK in 7th/8th edition. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510250.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510250.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Bobug wrote:
Or like, you know, just play using your models on the old bases. It's not like James workshop is going to show up and cast your models into the void for a 5mm difference in diameter


The problem is base size is pretty important in the game so it can make a big difference if one player has old base standards and the other has new standards.

As someone with a lot of models on 20s / 25s rebasing will be a non starter, as will having to stop and work out how the base difference has effected the rules interactions every template, spell, moving, combat etc. so I don’t think it’s unreasonable for people to be worried about this ‘subtle’ change.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510255.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510255.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510262.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510262.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
That way it doesn't stomp on new players collections and allows stuff that's more dynamic to be ported over if players wish from AoS on larger bases. I think this makes the most sense.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510282.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510282.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 nathan2004 wrote:
I don't understand the folks on here that say bringing back old kits is going to kill TOW...Making the old kits made to order is great for the folks (and clearly they are out there given the second hand market) who want to fill out/complete their army(armies) without having to pay out the teeth for it. Those who aren't fond of the old kits can just ignore the MtO and get the rules if they want to try the game out and wait for the new kits to drop. Which we all know will come....how is this a bad thing?


You invent idea of mto. Rumour didn't say mto.

What people are objecting is old kits put to shelf. You want tomb king skeletons, you buy the old kit.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510295.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510295.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510308.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510308.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 nathan2004 wrote:
I think a lot of us that have existing collections face a rebasing dilemma if they change base size, be very interesting to see how this is handled hopefully through movement trays.

That way it doesn't stomp on new players collections and allows stuff that's more dynamic to be ported over if players wish from AoS on larger bases. I think this makes the most sense.


It's already handled. Look up Oathmark movement trays for 20mm bases.

Oathmark uses 25mm for all non-monstrous infantry. When it came out, it took all the laser-cut MDF movement tray companies out there about five minutes to start offering 125mm frontage trays for 20mm square bases.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510345.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510345.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510357.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510357.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Psychopomp wrote:
 nathan2004 wrote:
I think a lot of us that have existing collections face a rebasing dilemma if they change base size, be very interesting to see how this is handled hopefully through movement trays.

That way it doesn't stomp on new players collections and allows stuff that's more dynamic to be ported over if players wish from AoS on larger bases. I think this makes the most sense.


It's already handled. Look up Oathmark movement trays for 20mm bases.

Oathmark uses 25mm for all non-monstrous infantry. When it came out, it took all the laser-cut MDF movement tray companies out there about five minutes to start offering 125mm frontage trays for 20mm square bases.


Thank you]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510363.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510363.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 streetsamurai wrote:
Chikout wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
 herjan1987 wrote:
I run a small news page for Warhammer The old World and one of my followers, who was at Adepticon said the following information about the game:

The smallest base size will be 25 mm

Tomb Kings skeletons, horse riders, chariots are comming back, aswell as Bretonnian men-at-arms, long bowmen and plastic knight kit.

Stater set will be Tomb Kings vs Bretonnians

And there are going to be new models aswell for both sides


This is said to be coming from some UK sources, that he was talking to.


Tomb Kings skeletons coming back would completely ruin any interest I have in them. Well, old kits for both, really. There’s a reason I didn’t start either of them when WHFB was still around, because they still had a lot of old models. That was like 10+ years ago.


Surely this means new plastics for those listed kits. We already seen the knights' helms.


Yep, no way are they bringing these old disgusting kits back. That would kill tow in the egg


Why would anybody expect they won´t release new models? It would be an idiotic decision by GW.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510367.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510367.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510379.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510379.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Mr_Rose wrote:The problem is that the tomb kings skeleton kit was literally the fourth ed skeleton kit with a shield sprue thrown in. It was never very good and the wear on the die was beginning to show even then. By the end of WFB, it was nearly impossible to build due to tiny contact points being obscured by mould slips. If that particular pair of dies still exists, I shudder to think how bad fresh casts out of it will be.


It's like GW hasn't figured out the concept of the Master Mold...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510469.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11510469.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Whether they green light new expensive mold is another thing if sales aren't all that big.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511030.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511030.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
tneva82 wrote:
 nathan2004 wrote:
I don't understand the folks on here that say bringing back old kits is going to kill TOW...Making the old kits made to order is great for the folks (and clearly they are out there given the second hand market) who want to fill out/complete their army(armies) without having to pay out the teeth for it. Those who aren't fond of the old kits can just ignore the MtO and get the rules if they want to try the game out and wait for the new kits to drop. Which we all know will come....how is this a bad thing?


You invent idea of mto. Rumour didn't say mto.

What people are objecting is old kits put to shelf. You want tomb king skeletons, you buy the old kit.


No, that was me who threw the idea out since there is no solid information on the topic, people shouldn't assume that the old kits will be getting a new shelf release when MtO or Direct Only are other options]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511037.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511037.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
And looking at 40k/aos/hh it's not like idea of mix of old and new kits at same time is unlikely/rare.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511044.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511044.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 MajorWesJanson wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 nathan2004 wrote:
I don't understand the folks on here that say bringing back old kits is going to kill TOW...Making the old kits made to order is great for the folks (and clearly they are out there given the second hand market) who want to fill out/complete their army(armies) without having to pay out the teeth for it. Those who aren't fond of the old kits can just ignore the MtO and get the rules if they want to try the game out and wait for the new kits to drop. Which we all know will come....how is this a bad thing?


You invent idea of mto. Rumour didn't say mto.

What people are objecting is old kits put to shelf. You want tomb king skeletons, you buy the old kit.


No, that was me who threw the idea out since there is no solid information on the topic, people shouldn't assume that the old kits will be getting a new shelf release when MtO or Direct Only are other options


GW did made to order for some of their metals. Aren't there logistical problems with doing made to order plastics?

But with some new Bret stuff being shown off, I would expect that they at leave have been looking into making new kits]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511367.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511367.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Just Tony wrote:
Mr_Rose wrote:The problem is that the tomb kings skeleton kit was literally the fourth ed skeleton kit with a shield sprue thrown in. It was never very good and the wear on the die was beginning to show even then. By the end of WFB, it was nearly impossible to build due to tiny contact points being obscured by mould slips. If that particular pair of dies still exists, I shudder to think how bad fresh casts out of it will be.


It's like GW hasn't figured out the concept of the Master Mold...


There is no master mould for the steel tools used for injection moulded plastics. The moulds are cut from blocks of steel. Remaking them means cutting a fresh one from digital files, if the original design is modern enough, or pantographing an original master model, or potentially nowadays some kind of scan of the original to produce a digital file. But there's no master mould from a which new mould can be made directly. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511396.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511396.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
metal MTO will be a lot easier as they come from a different machine (or might even be subcontracted? i had thought GW had got rid of all the old metal casting machines or converted them for finecast, but maybe they've bought more)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511412.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511412.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Greenfield wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
Mr_Rose wrote:The problem is that the tomb kings skeleton kit was literally the fourth ed skeleton kit with a shield sprue thrown in. It was never very good and the wear on the die was beginning to show even then. By the end of WFB, it was nearly impossible to build due to tiny contact points being obscured by mould slips. If that particular pair of dies still exists, I shudder to think how bad fresh casts out of it will be.


It's like GW hasn't figured out the concept of the Master Mold...


There is no master mould for the steel tools used for injection moulded plastics. The moulds are cut from blocks of steel. Remaking them means cutting a fresh one from digital files, if the original design is modern enough, or pantographing an original master model, or potentially nowadays some kind of scan of the original to produce a digital file. But there's no master mould from a which new mould can be made directly.


I certainly expect tooling a new mold to be out of the question for any made to order products.

So it would come down completely to whether or not the original mold has survived and is in their possession.


Made to order resin or metal makes a whole lot more sense. I seriously doubt that they'd reproduce any of their old plastic kits in resin or metal. I'd expect them to make new sculpts before that.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511413.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511413.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! KOW. In Warhammer the models matter. The units take wounds models are removed, units are reformed. Heroes and wizards join units and become part of the unit, this does not exist in other games like Kings of War. In other games Skirmishers are just another block, in Warhammer skirmishers are fluid and move and bend between the blocks.

As to new models or rereleased older models, it truly does not matter. If GW's goal it make the game playable on day one older kits would be required. Going this rout would also cost GW nothing since the kits and molds are in cold storage. I would not be surprised if GW releases metal models on the website, given the success of the Steel Legion's return.

The base rumour make no sense. Why would GW make it more difficult for people to jump right in to the game, when they have already said that we can use our old models. Also GW makes very little money on bases, i really do not think that the GW would release bags of bases on release day so we could rebase our models. very silly.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511418.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511418.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW suddenly deciding to sell it again shouldn't have been a catalyst if you wanted to play.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511443.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511443.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Paymaster Games wrote:
The base rumour make no sense. Why would GW make it more difficult for people to jump right in to the game, when they have already said that we can use our old models. Also GW makes very little money on bases, i really do not think that the GW would release bags of bases on release day so we could rebase our models. very silly.

I think that is re: new boxes of models, not something written in the rulebook that forces you to rebase your army.
A bit like it happens in 40k, where new models come out with (sometimes wildly) different base sizes than in the past, but there is no official requirement to rebase (aside from certain tournament circuits like WTC).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511445.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511445.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
There's nothing been stopping you from playing it any time at all. GW suddenly deciding to sell it again shouldn't have been a catalyst if you wanted to play.


As someone who's been able to get semi-regular 8th Ed games since AoS started, THIS. You'd be surprised how many people are willing to still play if someone just asks.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511448.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511448.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
This is one of the reasons i am looking forward to the Old World, i will have people to play against again.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511470.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511470.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Paymaster Games wrote:
The base rumour make no sense. Why would GW make it more difficult for people to jump right in to the game, when they have already said that we can use our old models. Also GW makes very little money on bases, i really do not think that the GW would release bags of bases on release day so we could rebase our models. very silly.


People who already re-based squares to (bigger) circles for AoS won't have to re-base them back if the squares are now the same size as the newer squares.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511474.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511474.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Paymaster Games wrote:
I would not be surprised if GW releases metal models on the website, given the success of the Steel Legion's return.

Not sure I'd call the latest M2O a success, unless you've got access to sales data the rest of us haven't - those prices are pants-on-head crazy.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511497.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511497.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Shakalooloo wrote:
 Paymaster Games wrote:
The base rumour make no sense. Why would GW make it more difficult for people to jump right in to the game, when they have already said that we can use our old models. Also GW makes very little money on bases, i really do not think that the GW would release bags of bases on release day so we could rebase our models. very silly.


People who already re-based squares to (bigger) circles for AoS won't have to re-base them back if the squares are now the same size as the newer squares.


Bigger bases also would allow for a bit more freedom designing models and still have them rank up. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511567.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511567.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
it screws 3rd party models that uses the old base sizes and make it harder to use models based for other games (see the similar change from 25 to 28mm Bases in 40k)
while it would work with models re-based for AoS (so keeping those happy that stayed in the GW bubble)
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511585.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511585.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
There's nothing been stopping you from playing it any time at all. GW suddenly deciding to sell it again shouldn't have been a catalyst if you wanted to play.


The trick is, as always, that it takes TWO to play. And finding that vital second player can be difficult with 'dead' games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 kodos wrote:
why it might be true:

it screws 3rd party models that uses the old base sizes and make it harder to use models based for other games (see the similar change from 25 to 28mm Bases in 40k)
while it would work with models re-based for AoS (so keeping those happy that stayed in the GW bubble)


Why doing it would be a disaster for GW:

it screws the oldhammer players over.... AGAIN. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511626.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511626.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW never promised old bases would remain usable.

But we'll see. If GW intends seraphon, slaves to darkness etc models be usable they need bigger bases than old 25mm squares. So will there be multiple different base sizes, fewer unified ones or are the AOS&TOW chaos/seraphon/skaven etc models incompatible?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511635.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511635.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Vulcan wrote:

Why doing it would be a disaster for GW:

it screws the oldhammer players over.... AGAIN.
never change a running system
Specially if base size is not part of the rules at all
And screwing the oldhammer players in 40k was not a disaster either

Because veterans don't like it, is a reason for GW to actually do it]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511637.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511637.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511638.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511638.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Bobug wrote:
Noone is going to stop you from using models that are on old bases... Or if they do they aren't someone worth actually spending your time playing.


Would be rather inconvenient to play though as nobody is going to let you have advantage in game by having smaller bases. So you need to be constantly factoring in base size they are supposed to be on.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511644.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511644.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Bobug wrote:
Noone is going to stop you from using models that are on old bases... Or if they do they aren't someone worth actually spending your time playing.


AOS was supposed to be base agnostic, and you would be able to use your squares without issue ruleswise. The player base is the ones that forced the base issue through tournament rules and the like. The EXACT same thing could happen to TOW if they go through with the base size change.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511657.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511657.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
tneva82 wrote:
Would be rather inconvenient to play though as nobody is going to let you have advantage in game by having smaller bases. So you need to be constantly factoring in base size they are supposed to be on.


Pretty sure two oldhammer players who are both using "old" armies on "small bases" aren't going to get that upset by the perceived advantage of it.

It will be tournaments that kick off - like with AoS as people have said. If TOW takes off then a few years down the line showing up with your 20+ year old minis on tiny bases will probably get frowned on. As has happened every time GW up the base size.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511671.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511671.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Tyel wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Would be rather inconvenient to play though as nobody is going to let you have advantage in game by having smaller bases. So you need to be constantly factoring in base size they are supposed to be on.


Pretty sure two oldhammer players who are both using "old" armies on "small bases" aren't going to get that upset by the perceived advantage of it.

It will be tournaments that kick off - like with AoS as people have said. If TOW takes off then a few years down the line showing up with your 20+ year old minis on tiny bases will probably get frowned on. As has happened every time GW up the base size.


Yea but those 2 oldhammer players who play with their old models are pretty much irrelevant.

You think GW goes through all this to give rules to old players who don't buy new models?

No profit there. GW aims for NEW players. You know. The ones who don't have armies already. Those who buy models.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511676.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511676.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
tneva82 wrote:
No profit there. GW aims for NEW players. You know. The ones who don't have armies already. Those who buy models.


Well yeah. I think GW will change base sizes.
This is also why I think GW will release almost universally new stuff. Their business is selling plastic. The number of buyers for say Skeleton Warriors released in 2002 (or whatever) that were looking kind of outdated in 2010~ never mind 2023 going on 2030 has got to be tiny.

But I don't think that's going to meaningfully stop people playing with their existing armies. At least for a while.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511678.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511678.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! WHFB player, clearly.

We all buy loads of models that fit the game we play…. increasingly this means elsewhere from GW as they have gone off on the AoS tangent. This is money GW could have but are losing.

The newbies are all happily playing AoS, spending their money at GW already. Why split that market share with a new game?

This is clearly marketed at lapsed players, not new folks with no attachment to the game already.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511679.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511679.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW would burn down there built in player base, it’s a big risk.
It instantly turns day one buy for me into a no buy.
Going to take me a year to rebase things. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511680.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511680.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Luke82 wrote:
Someone has never met a WHFB player, clearly.

We all buy loads of models that fit the game we play….


If this were true WFB wouldn't have been canned.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511695.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511695.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
JSG wrote:
Luke82 wrote:
Someone has never met a WHFB player, clearly.

We all buy loads of models that fit the game we play….


If this were true WFB wouldn't have been canned.


WFB was canned to protect their IP and not because of sales. It would be good to remember that.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511740.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511740.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Paymaster Games wrote:
JSG wrote:
Luke82 wrote:
Someone has never met a WHFB player, clearly.

We all buy loads of models that fit the game we play….


If this were true WFB wouldn't have been canned.


WFB was canned to protect their IP and not because of sales. It would be good to remember that.


WFB was canned because the previous CEO and the lead developer had a massive falling out when the CEO basically ordered him to make the next edition of WFB a skirmish game because clearly the problem with WFB was the rank file rule set and not the fact that all creative effort behind it was stagnant¹ and the marketing was somewhere between moribund and non-existent. (Allegedly)


¹ twenty years without a single new army/race even with one entirely fleshed out and ready to go already, one that players had been literally begging for, in the form of the chaos dwarfs. Never mind the other “known” races like the eastern humans and the “good” beastmen² of the southlands.

² the ones with big cat features rather than livestock features. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511767.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511767.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Mr_Rose wrote:


WFB was canned because the previous CEO and the lead developer had a massive falling out when the CEO basically ordered him to make the next edition of WFB a skirmish game because clearly the problem with WFB was the rank file rule set and not the fact that all creative effort behind it was stagnant¹ and the marketing was somewhere between moribund and non-existent. (Allegedly)


If that was the reason, I'm confident they will handle it a lot better this time around. One can level several accusations against GW, but they've absolutely made a 180 in terms of reviving past concepts, armies and game systems since.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511799.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511799.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! they just now know how marketing works and that nostalgia sells]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511804.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511804.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 kodos wrote:
looking at Necromunda, not really
they just now know how marketing works and that nostalgia sells


Necromunda was completely remade and still gets regular releases, doesn't it?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511809.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511809.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 BertBert wrote:
 kodos wrote:
looking at Necromunda, not really
they just now know how marketing works and that nostalgia sells

Necromunda was completely remade and still gets regular releases, doesn't it?
if TOW follows the route of Necromunda, people are going back playing Oldhammer very soon and are just happy that once in a while some new plastics come up]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511816.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511816.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 kodos wrote:
if TOW follows the route of Necromunda, people are going back playing Oldhammer very soon and are just happy that once in a while some new plastics come up


If it's just that, I'd be happy with it. I want new miniatures to build armies, anything on top is a bonus with GW.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511822.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511822.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 BertBert wrote:
 kodos wrote:
looking at Necromunda, not really
they just now know how marketing works and that nostalgia sells


Necromunda was completely remade and still gets regular releases, doesn't it?


Depending on your definition of regular, but yes. Imho one of the bigger drawbacks of current Necromunda is that they don't really give out actual roadmaps like they do for e.g. KillTeam or WarCry, just vague design notes and such. But yes, it is supported frequently.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511826.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511826.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Paymaster Games wrote:
JSG wrote:
Luke82 wrote:
Someone has never met a WHFB player, clearly.

We all buy loads of models that fit the game we play….


If this were true WFB wouldn't have been canned.


WFB was canned to protect their IP and not because of sales. It would be good to remember that.


Uh huh..we already have Peachy who was working there at the time come out and confirm it was sales. Or lack of them. I'd recommend you go check out that video.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511848.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511848.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
 Paymaster Games wrote:
JSG wrote:
Luke82 wrote:
Someone has never met a WHFB player, clearly.

We all buy loads of models that fit the game we play….


If this were true WFB wouldn't have been canned.


WFB was canned to protect their IP and not because of sales. It would be good to remember that.


Uh huh..we already have Peachy who was working there at the time come out and confirm it was sales. Or lack of them. I'd recommend you go check out that video.


Sales slumpped when they started making units boxes of 12-16 per box but needing 30+ for a unit and still charging the same cost. Players moved over to Kings of War or onto new systems. GW needed to protect what they had so they closed it down and went for a terrible rebrand. I doubt you'll get old Grognards like myself to start spending GW prices for a system that won't have good rules, when they can play Kings of War with the same armies for far cheaper. Disposable income or not, WHFB will not have another hayday like it used to have.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511916.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511916.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!

It's fully possible that it can achieve far greater numbers of players; though as a percentage of the market it might be a different level of power. Of course part of that is just that the market for fantasy and sci-fi is more developed than it was.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511943.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11511943.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Theophony wrote:
I doubt you'll get old Grognards like myself to start spending GW prices for a system that won't have good rules, when they can play Kings of War with the same armies for far cheaper.


As an old grognard, feth Kings of War. It's boring, doesn't feel like Warhammer, and the models are naff.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512065.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512065.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Theophony wrote:
I doubt you'll get old Grognards like myself to start spending GW prices for a system that won't have good rules, when they can play Kings of War with the same armies for far cheaper.


As an old grognard, feth Kings of War. It's boring, doesn't feel like Warhammer, and the models are naff.

As another old grognard, I love Kings of War. It's not half as slow and boring as WFB was, feels as much like Warhammer as the tales you tell playing it, and the models are the ones I bought from GW for Warhammer. It's all opinion.

Am I excited for New WFB? Not really for the rules, but I'd love to add more figures to my KoW armies. My only issue is that I can imagine the new stuff will have scale creep and make my old figures look tiny.

(And yes, I do have some Mantic figures in my armies - the ones I like, along with a mix of a few other manufacturers)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512081.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512081.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! WHFB minis than I can get for some new water park opening in Dubai. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512085.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512085.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
tneva82 wrote:
Well GW never promised old bases would remain usable.

But we'll see. If GW intends seraphon, slaves to darkness etc models be usable they need bigger bases than old 25mm squares. So will there be multiple different base sizes, fewer unified ones or are the AOS&TOW chaos/seraphon/skaven etc models incompatible?


AoS was also supposed to be 'WFB Compatable', and turned into 'NotHammer'. Sure, they attracted enough new blood to make it work, but the old guard left in droves.

TOW is supposed to bring the old guard back into the fold. Making it even slightly incompatible with their existing collections is not going to end well. Might as well save money and reputation and let sleeping dogs lie, y'know?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote:


Yea but those 2 oldhammer players who play with their old models are pretty much irrelevant.


Anyone else out there with tens of thousands of points of old models they'd like to play with want to speak out and let this kid know there's quite a few of us out there, MORE than enough money to attract GW's greed?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gimgamgoo wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Theophony wrote:
I doubt you'll get old Grognards like myself to start spending GW prices for a system that won't have good rules, when they can play Kings of War with the same armies for far cheaper.


As an old grognard, feth Kings of War. It's boring, doesn't feel like Warhammer, and the models are naff.

As another old grognard, I love Kings of War. It's not half as slow and boring as WFB was...


If the game recommends use of a chess clock to put pressure on the players to play quickly, it's not half as complex and interesting as it's marketed to be.

In my opinion, of course.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512121.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512121.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Vulcan wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Well GW never promised old bases would remain usable.

But we'll see. If GW intends seraphon, slaves to darkness etc models be usable they need bigger bases than old 25mm squares. So will there be multiple different base sizes, fewer unified ones or are the AOS&TOW chaos/seraphon/skaven etc models incompatible?


AoS was also supposed to be 'WFB Compatable', and turned into 'NotHammer'. Sure, they attracted enough new blood to make it work, but the old guard left in droves.

TOW is supposed to bring the old guard back into the fold. Making it even slightly incompatible with their existing collections is not going to end well. Might as well save money and reputation and let sleeping dogs lie, y'know?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote:


Yea but those 2 oldhammer players who play with their old models are pretty much irrelevant.


Anyone else out there with tens of thousands of points of old models they'd like to play with want to speak out and let this kid know there's quite a few of us out there, MORE than enough money to attract GW's greed?


Some of these kids can't grasp the concept that people may want to own more than one army for WFB. For some reason the thought that the same people who own, like, 6 40K armies won't buy more than one WFB army that they've stopped adding to for decades. It's self-validating insanity on the part of the people thinking no money will be spent.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512226.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512226.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Vulcan wrote:


If the game recommends use of a chess clock to put pressure on the players to play quickly, it's not half as complex and interesting as it's marketed to be.

In my opinion, of course.


Warmachine recommends using chess clock exactly because it's complex and options every turn are numerous, interesting and viable. Without it you get some players stuck in analysis paralysis for hours on end.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512245.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512245.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Vulcan wrote:

If the game recommends use of a chess clock to put pressure on the players to play quickly, it's not half as complex and interesting as it's marketed to be.
In my opinion, of course.

there are those games were playing on time and prevent the opponent from having a 3rd turn is a viable strategy to win tournaments and those games that recommend using chess clocks for tournaments to prevent this (and I guess chess is not very complex or interesting as that game invented the chess clock)

and I never found it very complex or interesting waiting there for 15 minutes during my turn until my opponent has decided which charge reaction they wanted to use

I would agree if a clock is fundamental to play the game, because than it would not be very interesting at all, but recommending one for tournaments so that the play who is wasting his time is punished instead of the other is something very different
specially as a lot of non-GW games use a clock for tournaments]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512319.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512319.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
But gw values hiding depth(lack of) with needless dice rolls and tournaments looking for profit. And players want all toys without having to compromise.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512323.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512323.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Just Tony wrote:

Some of these kids can't grasp the concept that people may want to own more than one army for WFB. For some reason the thought that the same people who own, like, 6 40K armies won't buy more than one WFB army that they've stopped adding to for decades. It's self-validating insanity on the part of the people thinking no money will be spent.


Some of us haven't stopped adding to them, but I'm still missing Ogres and Chaos Dwarfs and am definitely excited to add new armies that didn't have older rules to the collection.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512348.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512348.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! DE and I still periodically add to it.

7,000-odd points of Brets can still use some expansion, along with 6,000-odd points of Skaven - I still don't have any stormfiends, after all.

And now I'm getting a Lizardman army going even without TOW yet, probably up around 2500 points and climbing fast.

If the new Bret minis are compatible with my existing ones, I'll buy them and play TOW. If they're not, GW can go pound sand.

It really is that simple.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512368.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512368.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW hasn't brought DE back under AoS because the whole army is basically there. Heck with the way they teased the latest story for Daughters of Khaine and Morathi I thought they were going to do just that. They sort of soft did it.


That said DoK have become their own thing, but the DE army can certainly stand without them - all they lost was the cauldron and witch aelves; they've got models for everything else - leaders, dragons, infantry, archers, monsters, etc....

Throw a new leader or two in and its a done whole army. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512427.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512427.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW can go ahead and release something and not worry that Mantic will copy it for KOW.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512460.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512460.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! I see that people still cannot follow the really clear instruction to leave this thread for TOW N&R, mass executions will ensue from now on in. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512554.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512554.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! 40k one (but fantasy of course). I just really enjoy putting together wacky weird looking orks with all the bits and bobs the come with.

I think the boar boyz art from the news means there might be a chance. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512601.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512601.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512679.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512679.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Aenar wrote:
When did we get the last article about TOW? Are we expecting one in April as well?


March 13, which means we got one article each for the last three months. Hopefully that continues. It's starting to look like a pattern, but GW has not committed to more than, to paraphrase, more articles as we get closer to release.

The interesting thing will be to see if we get anything during Warhammer Fest at the end of April and beginning of May, and if and how that affects the series of Warhammer Community articles.


Edit: Also for ingtaer, I don't think there's a link to that article in the first post yet:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/03/13/old-world-development-diary-revealing-the-weapons-of-war/]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512697.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512697.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Aenar wrote:
When did we get the last article about TOW? Are we expecting one in April as well?


I would think we might get one - but it looks like main focus will be on new edition of 40k for a bit]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512708.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512708.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Aenar wrote:
When did we get the last article about TOW? Are we expecting one in April as well?

Since they did one every month this year I would expect another one this month.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512717.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11512717.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/05/40-years-of-warhammer-the-green-knight/


This magnificent figure was sculpted by the legendary Michael Perry. Incredibly, it was one of the first models he completed after losing his favoured hand at a battle reenactment – and it remains one of the all-time greats in the Citadel catalogue. The scalloping on the caparison is flagrantly detailed, and the weight of the steed is appreciable both in terms of the exquisite sculpting and the mass of the metal in which it was cast!

Had no clue Michael Perry lost his hand.

The year 1996 was a glorious one for Warhammer Fantasy Battle. This was the year in which the fifth edition of the game was released, a boxed set featuring brand new armies for both the Lizardmen and the Bretonnians – and with these new forces came powerful new heroes.

Spearheading a stunning new range of miniatures, the noble knights of Bretonnia came clattering in on bright-caparisoned chargers, led by the Champion of the Lady of the Lake – the mythical Green Knight. The ethereal Protector of Bretonnia would materialise from the wild places, rearing up on his huge shadow steed to batter the enemies of the realm


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514557.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514557.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 triplegrim wrote:

Had no clue Michael Perry lost his hand.


Yep, he lost his right hand when a reenactment cannon he was manning misfired/exploded. Had to reteach himself to sculpt with his left hand.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514560.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514560.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 triplegrim wrote:

Had no clue Michael Perry lost his hand.

Not only a hand, his dominant one iirc. Happened while he was loading a cannon with black powder, which accidentally ignited. He got a prosthetic system subsequently, and re-learned to sculpt with his other hand.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514561.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514561.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
I didn't realize Michael had already lost his hand when this model was sculpted. I'll never forget seeing Michael pick up my Games Day 2002 entries with his prosthetic during the Golden Daemon judging. Super nice guy, BTW.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514563.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514563.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514589.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514589.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 nathan2004 wrote:
I know they’ve both moved on but to have the Perry brothers come back to work on new sculpts would be a dream come true for me.


Not sure how much of traditional sculpting is still done at GW.

The green knight always has been one of my favourite models, its just perfect isn't it? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514601.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514601.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW model. Even if there's more intricately detailed or more technically impressive stuff, that thing just oozes character and managed to look entirely unique amidst a whole faction of 'armoured man on horse'. I'm glad it escaped the range refresh in 6th edition. Wish everything else had. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514606.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514606.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! before he lost his hand; when Repanse de Lyonesse was released, WD made a big fuss over that model being the first post-prosthetic sculpt.

Of course, over twenty years of memory degradation may well mean I'm wrong.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514627.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514627.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Shakalooloo wrote:
Huh, I remember the Green Knight being the final model Michael Perry sculpted before he lost his hand; when Repanse de Lyonesse was released, WD made a big fuss over that model being the first post-prosthetic sculpt.

Of course, over twenty years of memory degradation may well mean I'm wrong.


I could look it up, i have the corresponding WD somewhere in the basement ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514633.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514633.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Shakalooloo wrote:
Huh, I remember the Green Knight being the final model Michael Perry sculpted before he lost his hand; when Repanse de Lyonesse was released, WD made a big fuss over that model being the first post-prosthetic sculpt.

Of course, over twenty years of memory degradation may well mean I'm wrong.


I remember the same - so at least if we're wrong, we're wrong together !]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514653.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514653.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
https://natfka.blogspot.com/2023/03/rumors-for-old-world.html?m=1

New Base for new produced and sold Sets;
-25mm - small Infantry
-30mm - larger Infantry
-60mm - monstrous Infantry,
-30mmx60mm - Cavalry

There will be no rules for base measures, you can use your old models with their old bases. You even could use rebased Models with Movement trays for round bases.


Launch Set will be (as said) Empire vs. Orcs
Bretonia and Khemri were previews to show "those factions are not forgotten, we will bring complete new Stuff for them!"
Khemri will get the biggest range overhauls
Some older Models will return to production
First (6) Factions to get releases will be Empire > Orcs & Goblins > Chaos > Kislev > Bretonia > Dwarfs.



I can believe the bases thing, with 25mm being the smallest size for anything they release. Standard gw size creep, and will make models more stackable.

The release order may be true. Orcs have been the most common entry in starter sets, a fan favorite and especially for new entries into the hobby and younger players. Empire in the starter for obvious reasons.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514657.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514657.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514659.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514659.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514671.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514671.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 NAVARRO wrote:

Not sure how much of traditional sculpting is still done at GW.


2015 Adeptus Mechanicus Tech Priest Dominus was the last model to involve any amount of traditional sculpting. Everything since has been 100% digital (except for some terrain pieces and FW models).

I really like what Perry brothers created in the nineties and for LOTR but their last efforts after Middle Earth journey (couple of Empire clampack characters and VC Black Knights) were nothing to write home about. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514729.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514729.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
On the other hand.... I have so many existing models that will be "wrong" ._.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514756.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514756.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Shakalooloo wrote:
Huh, I remember the Green Knight being the final model Michael Perry sculpted before he lost his hand; when Repanse de Lyonesse was released, WD made a big fuss over that model being the first post-prosthetic sculpt.

Of course, over twenty years of memory degradation may well mean I'm wrong.


It's possible for both to be true. Repanse was first he sculpted with prosthetic, green knight was first to be released. Gw doesn't always release in order models were completed.

Indeed article says specifically one of the first modeis. Not the first model...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514796.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514796.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! de Lys and had models representing Noble Ladies and Sorceresses.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514800.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514800.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 herjan1987 wrote:
But I wonder why did they show off the plastic knight kit and the Grail knights aswell

Imagine you joined the hobby after AoS was established. Those knights would give some context to the weird malplaced medieval knight.
And at the same time generate some easy nostalgia for the veterans. (its a really nice paintjob too )]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514842.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514842.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 triplegrim wrote:
I know Faeit has a low ranking around here, but its a rumor at least:

https://natfka.blogspot.com/2023/03/rumors-for-old-world.html?m=1

New Base for new produced and sold Sets;
-25mm - small Infantry
-30mm - larger Infantry
-60mm - monstrous Infantry,
-30mmx60mm - Cavalry

There will be no rules for base measures, you can use your old models with their old bases. You even could use rebased Models with Movement trays for round bases.


Launch Set will be (as said) Empire vs. Orcs
Bretonia and Khemri were previews to show "those factions are not forgotten, we will bring complete new Stuff for them!"
Khemri will get the biggest range overhauls
Some older Models will return to production
First (6) Factions to get releases will be Empire > Orcs & Goblins > Chaos > Kislev > Bretonia > Dwarfs.



I can believe the bases thing, with 25mm being the smallest size for anything they release. Standard gw size creep, and will make models more stackable.

The release order may be true. Orcs have been the most common entry in starter sets, a fan favorite and especially for new entries into the hobby and younger players. Empire in the starter for obvious reasons.


So it's a general increase in base size overall? Interesting. I am relieved new base sizes aren't required (knock on wood), but I'm looking forward to seeing how base size affects gameplay. I might leave my old armies on old bases rather than redo them entirely if it doesn't impact much, and use new bases for a new army when I start one. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514929.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514929.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Fayric wrote:
 herjan1987 wrote:
But I wonder why did they show off the plastic knight kit and the Grail knights aswell

Imagine you joined the hobby after AoS was established. Those knights would give some context to the weird malplaced medieval knight.
And at the same time generate some easy nostalgia for the veterans. (its a really nice paintjob too )


Started my journey of Warhammer with Total War: Warhammer early trailers. I was bit of on the fence to buy minis, when they started the "Great Purge" of Fantasy minis. If I was 2 months early then I have had bought a bucket loads of those knigths aswell as Tomb Kings and variuos other minis like the High elf Handmaiden.

Btw someone noticed on Facebook, that the Green Knight on the last celebration video has bigger base, then he used too.


The 25*50 mm base



The celebration video base


See the little cloth/feathers on the horses head is out of the base on the original and it is still inside the base on the celebration video.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514960.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11514960.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515053.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515053.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515054.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515054.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 nathan2004 wrote:
That's a very interesting observation...Did anyone that played Brets in 8th have the Green Knight on the larger base?


Out of the question, that he is one a bigger base in 8th. The base size chart on the Eight edition for life forum says he is on a normal cavalry base.

https://eefl.freeforums.net/thread/611/base-size-conversion

Also I own two Green Knigths and they are both on 25*50 mm rectangles.

So its more likely, thats a 30*60 mm base. Streghten that his horses tail also not on the edge like on the old 25*50 mm cavalry base.

The warpines of the base can be basing material.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515055.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515055.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
PenitentJake wrote:
Let me just say... Bretonians have a lot of potential for Sisters conversions- if I recall correctly, those Brets dug on the Fleur de Lys and had models representing Noble Ladies and Sorceresses.


My original Canoness still proudly sports a back banner pole claimed from the Green Knight himself.

EDIT: And from scrabbling deperately through Reddit (puttup) to prove to myself I'm not being Mandela Effect'd:

some guy on reddit wrote:Green Knight is released in WD 206 and Michael Perry talks about it a bit on pg 81 "Altogether it took about three and a half weeks to sculpt. It was the last thing I did before my accident, so obviously it's quite special because of that."


My WD206 went long ago... Anyone able to confirm?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515189.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515189.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Warptide wrote:
So it's a general increase in base size overall? Interesting. I am relieved new base sizes aren't required (knock on wood), but I'm looking forward to seeing how base size affects gameplay. I might leave my old armies on old bases rather than redo them entirely if it doesn't impact much, and use new bases for a new army when I start one.


Two main effects on gameplay come to mind.

1) You get a higher attack density out of smaller bases. More attacks in a smaller area means a potential for more wounds to be inflicted.

2) Possibly more importantly, more models fall under templates when using smaller bases with the potential for more wounds to be suffered.


Then there's the undesired hobby effect of mismatching scale of minis and inability to field them together in the same unit without rebasing or some such. Which is why, if this is true and new models have larger bases, while I might play the game, I'll be unlikely to actually buy any of the minis. I imagine many others with extensive existing collections will feel the same.

Which, from GW's viewpoint, rather defeats the purpose of the release....]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515248.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515248.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
depending on how the rules will be for multi charges and/or if solo heroes are a thing this can be a big difference

if there is a general increase in base size, playing 20mm bases against 30mm bases won't be a thing for long

on the other side, classic magnet bases still exist (the magnetic rubber sheets) and just putting a 25mm sheet underneath the 20mm bases to put them on a tray is not really an issue
(and was already the solution back in the days were GW's 25mm bases were only 23mm wide)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515251.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515251.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Shakalooloo wrote:
PenitentJake wrote:
Let me just say... Bretonians have a lot of potential for Sisters conversions- if I recall correctly, those Brets dug on the Fleur de Lys and had models representing Noble Ladies and Sorceresses.


My original Canoness still proudly sports a back banner pole claimed from the Green Knight himself.

EDIT: And from scrabbling deperately through Reddit (puttup) to prove to myself I'm not being Mandela Effect'd:

some guy on reddit wrote:Green Knight is released in WD 206 and Michael Perry talks about it a bit on pg 81 "Altogether it took about three and a half weeks to sculpt. It was the last thing I did before my accident, so obviously it's quite special because of that."


My WD206 went long ago... Anyone able to confirm?


* Enters vault of my ancient White Dwarfs * "204, 205, 206. Here we go."

I can confirm that the quote is in White Dwarf 206, page 81, 1st paragraph.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515255.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515255.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 BertBert wrote:
The base also seems to be warped and not flush with the surface. Could that be a resin base?


It's not warped, it's round...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515512.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515512.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Orchomen wrote:
 BertBert wrote:
The base also seems to be warped and not flush with the surface. Could that be a resin base?


It's not warped, it's round...


Are we talking about the same picture?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515516.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515516.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515522.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515522.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Shakalooloo wrote:
If that's the original model from way back when, it's possible the base has warped over the years since, especially since they've repainted it at least once (so it ain't green no more).


But it can't be the same base because it's noticeably bigger than the classic WHFB cavalry bases. Could be a custom display base though and entirely unrelated to a potential new basing system.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515529.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515529.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!

EDIT: typed face instead of edge, and corrected it]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515531.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515531.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Just Tony wrote:
Did none of you notice that it's posed at an angle? If you take one of your Calvary bases and turn it 30° from facing laterally across you to where it's sort of turning towards your shoulder, it's going to make the base look longer because you're looking at both sides of the edge instead of just alongside itself.


EDIT: typed face instead of edge, and corrected it


The video has a 360° shot, it's definitely larger.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515532.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515532.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 herjan1987 wrote:
 Fayric wrote:
 herjan1987 wrote:
But I wonder why did they show off the plastic knight kit and the Grail knights aswell

Imagine you joined the hobby after AoS was established. Those knights would give some context to the weird malplaced medieval knight.
And at the same time generate some easy nostalgia for the veterans. (its a really nice paintjob too )


Started my journey of Warhammer with Total War: Warhammer early trailers. I was bit of on the fence to buy minis, when they started the "Great Purge" of Fantasy minis. If I was 2 months early then I have had bought a bucket loads of those knigths aswell as Tomb Kings and variuos other minis like the High elf Handmaiden.

Btw someone noticed on Facebook, that the Green Knight on the last celebration video has bigger base, then he used too.


The 25*50 mm base



The celebration video base


See the little cloth/feathers on the horses head is out of the base on the original and it is still inside the base on the celebration video.


Tony here is a picture from the video compared with an older image from the same angle.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515545.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515545.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think if we got pictures of both models from head on showing the front edge of the base that you'll see it's probably going to match up a little better]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515594.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515594.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515607.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515607.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515611.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515611.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! WHFB got squatted.

Brets on the other hand really do need a lot of love. And since they're mostly cavalry, they'll be an expensive army to get into without the support of a box set.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515616.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515616.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
It's true, it's also noticeably wider than the bases in the plastic knight photos below.



Random thought. It's on aos cavalry base. 75x42mm.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515619.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515619.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515626.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515626.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Breotan wrote:
I'm a little disappointed in the rumored release order. Empire is not lacking for plastics and had a lot of updates before WHFB got squatted.

There's probably data from the TW games showing how popular Empire is to play which might be a factor. Though to be fair playing as humans with sweet gunpowder weapons and charismatic voice acting in a game is completely different to picking a TT army to assemble/paint/play.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515631.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515631.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Breotan wrote:
I'm a little disappointed in the rumored release order. Empire is not lacking for plastics and had a lot of updates before WHFB got squatted.



The thing is, it's very likely that the current Empire range will be mostly wiped out once the new City of Sigmar models drop. Things like the Celestial Hurricanum, Gryphon, demigrph knights, and thing will be okay, but I imagine the basic troops, cannons, and anything that was released in the last Empire wave will be replaced. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515633.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515633.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! There is a later studio version (too late at night to find the WD ref now!) where they said they'd redone it and given it less ornate banners but no real explanation why they bothered. The McVey version was certainly on a classic cavalry base as per attached.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515673.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515673.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 herjan1987 wrote:
Does anyone has a Green knight with square base at hand? If not then I will find the ones that own to settle this question.


I have one in resin. It came with a 25mmx50mm cav base like any other cavalry.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515887.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515887.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! Wow, what a fascinating discussion that has nothing to do wit the topic. Again. Offenders will be shot at dawn. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515945.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11515945.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! mm base and yeah, if we compare it with the one in the video we clearly see the diferrence.





So its likely safe to say we are getting new bases.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11516393.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11516393.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11516642.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11516642.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11516651.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11516651.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Is there actually any indication that's been rebased for ToW, though? Has that specific painted model been shown before and has been re-based since the last time it was seen? Some other models for that 40 years of Warhammer thing haven't been rebased with something more current, like the original Space Marine.


GW has never sold 30x60 rectangular bases before and, outside of what we've been told about ToW, has otherwise entirely abandoned rectilinear bases. A rumour comes along that they're increasing the base sizes in ToW, including one with the dimensions of 30x60, and then less than a week later, this green knight appears on a noticeably larger base.

Are you suggesting that they custom made a larger base to place this previously painted green knight on just for the lulz? What else would it be rebased for?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11516672.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11516672.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! AoS.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11516718.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11516718.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! this photo. It's not a rounded base. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11516745.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11516745.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Is there actually any indication that's been rebased for ToW, though?
not necessarily for TOW, it was just shown with the new base in context to TOW
might be still a different reason why they have done it and had no other picture available

other possibility is that GW is re-basing and painting stuff to make new promo pictures for the TOW books from ranges that are not yet produced or designed (hence no 3D print available)

other point is, there were no rules for bases in the last 2 Editions of Warhammer, so good chance there won't be any in the next ones and GW just puts models on the base they think it will look best]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11516838.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11516838.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 kodos wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Is there actually any indication that's been rebased for ToW, though?
not necessarily for TOW, it was just shown with the new base in context to TOW
might be still a different reason why they have done it and had no other picture available

other possibility is that GW is re-basing and painting stuff to make new promo pictures for the TOW books from ranges that are not yet produced or designed (hence no 3D print available)

other point is, there were no rules for bases in the last 2 Editions of Warhammer, so good chance there won't be any in the next ones and GW just puts models on the base they think it will look best


It's one of Mike McVey's models painted to a quality worth them highlighting in the article which they haven't really done on others, it just seems more likely to me that either it just happened to be put on that base in the first place, or the perspective just makes it seem like its bigger, than they've risked damaging an old exceptionally painted model by removing it from the base to put it on a new one just to tie it in with the Old World. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11516842.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11516842.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
it is bigger and not just looks like it (specially as perspective is out of question with a 360° view)

and you can make bases bigger without removing the original one, not like we have been already thru that with the increase from 25 to 32 in 40k ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11516845.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11516845.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Mentlegen324 wrote:


It's one of Mike McVey's models painted to a quality worth them highlighting in the article which they haven't really done on others, it just seems more likely to me that either it just happened to be put on that base in the first place, or the perspective just makes it seem like its bigger, than they've risked damaging an old exceptionally painted model by removing it from the base to put it on a new one just to tie it in with the Old World.


They can always cut the base. Lets not forget, GW was the one, who showed, the players how to do that. Also the Green Knight has really small contact point with the base so there is less possebility for faulire. This could be a metal version of the model, and therefore there is even less chance of breakage.

Why rebase him? Maybe, because its a timeless model and they will re-release it, its actually a one of the romours, that old models will be available again. You know dont fix what is not broken.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11516857.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11516857.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11516965.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11516965.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Seems credible. Even logical, if its going to come out in 2023.

https://natfka.blogspot.com/2023/04/rumors-old-world.html?m=1

Warhammer The Old World will be just (like Epic) a small release. We get the Launch Box, Rulebook, the Compendium and an Accessories Pack for returnee Players.

They want to fill the "40 Years of Warhammer" Topic without blunders. Bigger releases then in Early 2024 before they go "all in" with Warhammer Age of Sigmar...


Youtubers have also picked it up.

https://youtu.be/BMw4x73Xlbg

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517201.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517201.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517229.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517229.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! 40K new edition rules and boxed set being demoed.

I would not expect any super big news to counter that until we are past June/July period. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517230.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517230.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
triplegrim wrote:New rumor from Faeit 212. The Old World will be a small 2023 release (as Epic).

Seems credible. Even logical, if its going to come out in 2023.

https://natfka.blogspot.com/2023/04/rumors-old-world.html?m=1

Warhammer The Old World will be just (like Epic) a small release. We get the Launch Box, Rulebook, the Compendium and an Accessories Pack for returnee Players.

They want to fill the "40 Years of Warhammer" Topic without blunders. Bigger releases then in Early 2024 before they go "all in" with Warhammer Age of Sigmar...


Youtubers have also picked it up.

https://youtu.be/BMw4x73Xlbg



If this is the case, and they are depending on players with existing armies to sort of street team this at FLGS's to help the game along as it's only going to have a starter set worth of models, then the rumor for base changes makes even LESS sense than before.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517335.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517335.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW, but the new models in the box will all have new base sizes

and changes to bases will not be in the rules but like in 40k come with the new model released and players need to figure it out on their own]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517366.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517366.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517368.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517368.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW did not care about bases at all since end of 6th Edition (outside of "whatever is in the box) and players needed to figure it out on their own

if this is based on 7th, there is a good chance there won't be anything about bases in the rules, simple because GW won't think about this as an issue as people are supposed to play with the new models anyway and those who don't can house rule it
and it is a casual game anyway, so not having rules for everything is fine]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517371.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517371.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Who is willing to bet there is going be base converters under it.

That would be a huge troll from GeeDubs.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517393.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517393.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
And I question the validity of the whole "based on 7th" rumor as well. 7th was considered a pretty low point rules and army list wise.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517394.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517394.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Is there actually any indication that's been rebased for ToW, though? Has that specific painted model been shown before and has been re-based since the last time it was seen? Some other models for that 40 years of Warhammer thing haven't been rebased with something more current, like the original Space Marine.


GW has never sold 30x60 rectangular bases before and, outside of what we've been told about ToW, has otherwise entirely abandoned rectilinear bases. A rumour comes along that they're increasing the base sizes in ToW, including one with the dimensions of 30x60, and then less than a week later, this green knight appears on a noticeably larger base.

Are you suggesting that they custom made a larger base to place this previously painted green knight on just for the lulz? What else would it be rebased for?


Are we sure it's rectangle and not aos cavalry base that's 72mm long? From angle i can't tell shape. Just that it's longer than 50mm.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517407.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517407.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW makes.

HOWEVER GW also takes a very simple stance of not invalidating models and thus has always taken the "the base in the box is the correct baes" approach.
That GW also changes base sizes (sometimes, esp in 40K, almost feeling as if at random) which then changes how a unit performs in the game is another one of those areas where GW has two hands doing different things and it only works because its one of many weak areas in their rules writing.


Again GW is caught in their own trap of trying to appease two elements that don't actually link up well in practice.



In general most gamers know that if you're going to compete or play seriously or even just casually and want to be as fair and close to the rules; then you have to use the currently set base. If GW has changed that then its time to rebase or buy again.





Note this gets amusing when there are models sold at the same time which are the same model in the game ,but which have different bases in the box. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517423.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517423.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Just Tony wrote:
And bases DID matter in 7th. They may not have published base charts, but the rules were still very base dependent.
as was 8th, yet there were no rules or guidelines for bases outside of "what is in the box" and this was a constant source for troubles specially with those models coming with multiple bases

GW did not care if this was important to the game or necessary that all people used the same base size for the same units

 Just Tony wrote:
And I question the validity of the whole "based on 7th" rumor as well. 7th was considered a pretty low point rules and army list wise.
hence why it sound reasonable
and the low point if 7th was the "don't care" approach of GW regarding rules (this was the time were "we don't make mistakes" was an official FAQ answer regarding missing army book updates from 6th)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517448.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517448.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Overread wrote:
In general most gamers know that if you're going to compete or play seriously or even just casually and want to be as fair and close to the rules; then you have to use the currently set base. If GW has changed that then its time to rebase or buy again.

Note this gets amusing when there are models sold at the same time which are the same model in the game ,but which have different bases in the box.


Yeah I would assume tournaments etc can just put in a Base Size rule in their tournament pack along with the rest of the blance stuff they will need to put in]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517477.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517477.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Just Tony wrote:
I can't even comprehend how bases won't matter in a regimental combat game...



I'm having a tough time as well, but I have a vested interest now with an older army and one that I'm renovated.

What if who fights is just determined by if you're touching the opponent and not about who is in base-to-base? Also I could see them removing templates and going to D6's based on number of models.

The only thing they can't compensate for, custom movement trays aside, is charge range to a unit where they would be slightly closer or further away than if they had proper bases. Maybe we're just not supposed to care that much and that's GW's solution? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517515.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517515.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
tneva82 wrote:
 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
It's true, it's also noticeably wider than the bases in the plastic knight photos below.



Random thought. It's on aos cavalry base. 75x42mm.


Smallest AoS cavalry base is 60x35mm (Dire Wolves, Flesh Hounds, Snarlfang Riders, Lumineth etc). 75x42mm is the next size up (Chaos Knights, Blood Knights) followed by 90x52mm (Dracoth). ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517534.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517534.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
tneva82 wrote:


Are we sure it's rectangle and not aos cavalry base that's 72mm long? From angle i can't tell shape. Just that it's longer than 50mm.


Tneva82 see the previous page second post, there you can see clearly thats a rectangle base.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517550.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517550.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 kodos wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
And bases DID matter in 7th. They may not have published base charts, but the rules were still very base dependent.
as was 8th, yet there were no rules or guidelines for bases outside of "what is in the box" and this was a constant source for troubles specially with those models coming with multiple bases

GW did not care if this was important to the game or necessary that all people used the same base size for the same units

 Just Tony wrote:
And I question the validity of the whole "based on 7th" rumor as well. 7th was considered a pretty low point rules and army list wise.
hence why it sound reasonable
and the low point if 7th was the "don't care" approach of GW regarding rules (this was the time were "we don't make mistakes" was an official FAQ answer regarding missing army book updates from 6th)
Hm, I remember the 7th ed core rules being good and it was army books that ruined it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517586.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517586.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! BSB rules with no points increase,. That's just off the top of my head. So I'm sure I can find more if I looked.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517602.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517602.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 herjan1987 wrote:
Wait folks the rumour says accesory pack will be sold.

Who is willing to bet there is going be base converters under it.

That would be a huge troll from GeeDubs.


Not a typical GW product imo.

I was thinking more artillery dice, templates and perhaps measurement.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517606.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517606.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 triplegrim wrote:
 herjan1987 wrote:
Wait folks the rumour says accesory pack will be sold.

Who is willing to bet there is going be base converters under it.

That would be a huge troll from GeeDubs.


Not a typical GW product imo.

I was thinking more artillery dice, templates and perhaps measurement.


Magic cards A thing they should absolutely do when they want to go proper oldschool.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517610.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517610.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Tsagualsa wrote:
 triplegrim wrote:
 herjan1987 wrote:
Wait folks the rumour says accesory pack will be sold.

Who is willing to bet there is going be base converters under it.

That would be a huge troll from GeeDubs.


Not a typical GW product imo.

I was thinking more artillery dice, templates and perhaps measurement.


Magic cards A thing they should absolutely do when they want to go proper oldschool.


Christ, it'd be dead on arrival for me. Might as well bring back Flying High...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517765.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517765.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 kodos wrote:
and still GW did not care about bases at all since end of 6th Edition (outside of "whatever is in the box) and players needed to figure it out on their own


True... sorta.

While monsters and such did experience base size creep along with scale creep, the basic infantry and cavalry have always been 20x20, 25x25, or 25x50 for as long as I can remember. So the CORE of the armies have been consistent for quite a few editions, even if there has been some fluctuation in the bases of centerpiece models.

Changing the bases of the CORE of the armies will have a significant impact on the game. Especially if bigger bases bring with them bigger templates.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517803.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517803.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 nathan2004 wrote:
Are there any rumors about a big reveal at Warhammer Fest? It's only a few weeks away so maybe they are saving the April preview for that perhaps where they will reveal more substantial information about the game...

I haven't heard any rumors to that affect, but I do think GW will showcase TOW at Warhammer Fest in a few weeks. I suspect the reason GW announced 10th edition at adepticon in order to let TOW have the spotlight at Warhammer Fest. Also, I'm pretty sure the whole "40 years of warhammer" thing they've been doing each Wednesday is to build up nostalgia for classic Warhammer and (by proxy) lead up to the announcement of TOW.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517845.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517845.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Just Tony wrote:
Tsagualsa wrote:
 triplegrim wrote:
 herjan1987 wrote:
Wait folks the rumour says accesory pack will be sold.

Who is willing to bet there is going be base converters under it.

That would be a huge troll from GeeDubs.


Not a typical GW product imo.

I was thinking more artillery dice, templates and perhaps measurement.


Magic cards A thing they should absolutely do when they want to go proper oldschool.


Christ, it'd be dead on arrival for me. Might as well bring back Flying High...


I think they just mean physical cards that have the spells and not the actual system from 4th/5th.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517935.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517935.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
Tsagualsa wrote:
 triplegrim wrote:
 herjan1987 wrote:
Wait folks the rumour says accesory pack will be sold.

Who is willing to bet there is going be base converters under it.

That would be a huge troll from GeeDubs.


Not a typical GW product imo.

I was thinking more artillery dice, templates and perhaps measurement.


Magic cards A thing they should absolutely do when they want to go proper oldschool.


Christ, it'd be dead on arrival for me. Might as well bring back Flying High...


I think they just mean physical cards that have the spells and not the actual system from 4th/5th.


Yeah, i menant spell cards and item cards etc., not the energy-card system, which scaled horribly.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517961.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11517961.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/14/old-world-development-diary-on-bases-and-the-barons-of-bretonnia/

With info about basing!

Over the decades, our models have become larger and more dynamic, which means that many units have become difficult to arrange into ranks and files. Players must be able to line their models up without complex planning about which spear has to go where in order to use them in-game. On top of that, we didn’t like that the back ranks were hidden and hard to see.

So now, all 20mm bases have been replaced with 25mm bases. Most (but not all) 25mm and 25×50 bases have been replaced with new-sized bases.


The Q&A will be divisive, i fear:


Do I need to rebase my old army?
If you’re playing at home there’ll be no requirement to rebase anything. For casual play, the size of base will make a minimal difference to gameplay. The rules will be written assuming the new larger base sizes – so if you’re planning to play competitively, you might want to upgrade to larger bases,


Q: How do I know the correct base size for my models?

A: Base sizes will be given in every model’s profile.


Q: Can I take my old armies to organised play events?

A: Sure! But organised play events (tournaments, campaign events, etc) will probably require armies to be based appropriately for the new game (or on an appropriate movement tray). Organised play requires some standardisation and this is the best way to do it.


Q: Will we be able to buy bases?

A: Yes. All models in the Warhammer: The Old World range – including returning models – will be supplied with the correctly sized bases. We’ll also be selling bases and movement trays.


And it confirms more TOW stuff at WarhammerFest.

Thanks again to the Warhammer: The Old World team! There’s plenty more to come from development diaries in the future – and you may just hear even more at Warhammer Fest, which kicks off on Saturday the 29th of April.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518612.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518612.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Do we think the new AOS Saurus or Chaos Knights will rank up on square bases with a bit more wiggle room?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518623.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518623.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
My largest painted WFB army is Beastmen, which got rebased twice thanks to their fething about with ungor. Dunno that I want to do it again.

Wish they'd specified the size of 'new sized bases,' even though obviously the want to sell them rather than people getting the jump with DYI or other companies.


profile including base size is a positive, however.


Also nice to see a Bret army with a unified color scheme. The mismatched rainbow-vomit approach always bothered me (though they do feel the need to explain that people can do what they want)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518627.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518627.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 The Phazer wrote:
That seems the most common sense approach. Really, base sizes barely worked by the end of WFB, they needed to go up. Interesting that this heavily suggests they'll be bringing existing models out of mothballs rather than only having new units.

Do we think the new AOS Saurus or Chaos Knights will rank up on square bases with a bit more wiggle room?



I think it's the most gentle approach they could have chosen: scaling the bases up is not really a problem, since you can always use appropriate-sized movement trays with spacers / 20mm cutouts.

It will be interestng to see how they handle Chaos and Lizardmen in general, so far they said nothing about it.

Wish they'd specified the size of 'new sized bases,' even though obviously the want to sell them rather than people getting the jump with DYI or other companies.


Yeah, i suspect they chose some weird size that they hope to have quasi-proprietary for some time, and are afraid of other companies being ready with alternatives or even army-themed bases before TOW even launches.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518629.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518629.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! "Unfortunately, you will need to rebase your army. But, luckily for all of you, we sell the solution to the problem we created... I mean sell new bases that make the game better!"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518632.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518632.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Having to rebase everything again is less hot but only the woefully naïve shouldn't have expected some sort of scale creep, and this is probably less painful than the models.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518641.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518641.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Yeah rebasing sucks, but at least having clear guidelines on what goes on what clears the air. Far better than when we had Tyranid Warriors running around on different bases in different sets sold at the same time which were both different to historic bases just leading to confusion.



Edit - news is still great but darn it I mixed up threads and thought this was 40K

Gotta dream that they do the same for 40K new edition! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518645.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518645.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! AoS (O&G army), its not fun so yeah good luck with that.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518648.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518648.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
The scale creep for bases Will make easier to take AoS armies and put them in movement trays for TOW use with round bases]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518652.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518652.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! 40k round equivalents?

Then you could have trays to fit the circles and have AoS / W:OW compatability? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518658.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518658.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 NAVARRO wrote:
Spent ages rebasing to round AoS (O&G army), its not fun so yeah good luck with that.


Yeah, not rebasing 600+ Skaven, 500+ Goblins, plus all the other armies with 100-300 models.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518660.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518660.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! WHFB units as well, which I'm all for. As much as I dislike AOS, one of it's few positives is the dynamism and beauty of some of the new models.

While WHFB is never going to have this fully, aside from with characters and monsters, it's a decent half way house allowing for a bit more flair in the rank and file.

For people moaning about having to rebase, just use movement trays.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518662.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518662.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
I probably won't actually re-base my current armies but invest in some new movement trays with spacers so I can switch between editions if I needed. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518674.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518674.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
The use of old models in the preview is very interesting though. Does this suggest that the Bretonnian parts they revealed a while back are going to be upgrade sprues, rather than a complete new kit? The artwork they released a few months ago showed knights similar to the old kits.

Also, they have ranked the Brets up in a fifth edition lance formation. Does this mean anything regarding rules and how many models we will get in a box? I assumed it would be five per box, but the lance formation needs six.

Finally, in the photo showing the archers there are blurry goblins(?) in the foreground. Does this confirm their inclusion in the OW? So many questions. It is all very exciting!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518680.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518680.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
MvR wrote:


Finally, in the photo showing the archers there are blurry goblins(?) in the foreground. Does this confirm their inclusion in the OW? So many questions. It is all very exciting!


Orcs or Goblins, but definatly part of Orcs and Goblins. Maybe they will, have next highlight?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518688.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518688.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Londinium wrote:
The base creep will also allow some more dynamic WHFB units as well, which I'm all for. As much as I dislike AOS, one of it's few positives is the dynamism and beauty of some of the new models.

While WHFB is never going to have this fully, aside from with characters and monsters, it's a decent half way house allowing for a bit more flair in the rank and file.

For people moaning about having to rebase, just use movement trays.


If they were smart they'd do some unit fillers at least for horde armies like Skaven, Undead and O&G, both for old players to have something new to paint and for newer ones not needing to paint north of a hundred goblins or whatever...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518694.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518694.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
For those upset about rebasing, I plan on playing competitively and don't plan on rebasing right now. Rather using movement trays. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518695.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518695.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518696.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518696.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! AoS oval base tho. So no dual use minis with clever TOW trays.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518698.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518698.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 nathan2004 wrote:
Can anyone speak to the lore around this time regarding Orcs and Goblins...were they united as 1 army or would they be separate from each other and act as 2 independent armies...apologies if this is a silly question but I'm not super up to date on the lore and my little brother is starting O&G and we're both curious about this.

For those upset about rebasing, I plan on playing competitively and don't plan on rebasing right now. Rather using movement trays.


You could have pure Goblin or pure Ork armies, but mixed forces were the normal case. Orks had rules that allowed them to ignore Panic checks etc. that resulted from Goblin units getting destroyed, and their magic lores were separate. You could also have pure armies composed of goblin tribes like Night Goblins or Forest Goblins. Most O&G armies also included various monsters like Giants, several varieties of Trolls and other things, and more specialized units like e.g. Squigs or Spider Riders where locked behind having units of appropriate-tribe goblin footsloggers etc., while e.g. Black Orks were limited in number.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518703.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518703.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 herjan1987 wrote:
MvR wrote:


Finally, in the photo showing the archers there are blurry goblins(?) in the foreground. Does this confirm their inclusion in the OW? So many questions. It is all very exciting!


Orcs or Goblins, but definatly part of Orcs and Goblins. Maybe they will, have next highlight?


Or that they might be released in a box with the Brets? Starter box clues? Get me a corkboard, some pins, and a ball of string!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518721.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518721.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! AoS, couldn't I just build a movement tray with round spots and use them that way?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518725.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518725.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Also for horde armies, I'm glad they are making larger bases. Same scale with bigger bases is the right choice really.

Also that Red and Black scheme for that Bret army is dead nice. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518729.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518729.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Scottywan82 wrote:
If the bases are the same diameter as in AoS, couldn't I just build a movement tray with round spots and use them that way?


Likely fine for infantry regiments and such but most heroes are on larger bases than their fellow units. Like a vampire lord is on a 40mm round and skeletons/zombies are on 25mm rounds. I would be shocked if, in The Old World, vampires are on 40mm squares.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518740.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518740.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
I didn't play Brets before so my knowledge is limited but were foot knights a thing?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518771.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518771.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518773.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518773.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 nathan2004 wrote:
From the WarCom article "Knights of the Realm (on foot and mounted)"

I didn't play Brets before so my knowledge is limited but were foot knights a thing?

Only with the Virtue of Empathy.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518779.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518779.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518799.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518799.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Kanluwen wrote:
 nathan2004 wrote:
From the WarCom article "Knights of the Realm (on foot and mounted)"

I didn't play Brets before so my knowledge is limited but were foot knights a thing?

Only with the Virtue of Empathy.


And pre-6th.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518802.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518802.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 nathan2004 wrote:
From the WarCom article "Knights of the Realm (on foot and mounted)"

I didn't play Brets before so my knowledge is limited but were foot knights a thing?

Only with the Virtue of Empathy.


And pre-6th.

I got the impression they were talking about units of foot knights rather than nobles leading peasants. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518808.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518808.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518810.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518810.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Tronbot2600 wrote:
Finally! Trying to rank up 6th - 8th edition kits is such a pain...I have way too many units that have to be assembled in exactly the same way every time or they don't rank up at all.

I probably won't actually re-base my current armies but invest in some new movement trays with spacers so I can switch between editions if I needed.


Have to agree. When I saw the base size rumor over at Faeit I took out my 3 x 20 stormvermin and 3 x 30 clanrats and they simply cant rank up with command and a hero. Not without some difficulty at least.

If they make 20 models the size of a large infantry unit, 25mm is ok to increase to. For friendly games with old armies, no big deal if you dont rebase.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518811.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518811.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
So what are the odds that all these old kits they're bringing back are going to end up being direct order only?


I feel like there will be a core of new kits which will be in stores, and then all the old stuff is direct only. Besides the stuff which shares models with aos.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518812.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518812.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Mr_Rose wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 nathan2004 wrote:
From the WarCom article "Knights of the Realm (on foot and mounted)"

I didn't play Brets before so my knowledge is limited but were foot knights a thing?

Only with the Virtue of Empathy.


And pre-6th.

I got the impression they were talking about units of foot knights rather than nobles leading peasants.


They were. Bretonnians had units of foot Knights pre-6th edition.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518813.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518813.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Only army I ever regret selling previously, but at least I can redo them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518815.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518815.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518816.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518816.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! IMO. It'll make the transition for people with existing armies a little bumpy, but it's a good long-term strategy. Citadel miniatures' scales have crept so much since the 20mm/25mm base standard was established.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518817.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518817.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518819.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518819.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
nathan2004 wrote:From the WarCom article "Knights of the Realm (on foot and mounted)"

I didn't play Brets before so my knowledge is limited but were foot knights a thing?


They were a thing in 3:rd/4:th edition. I think they disappeared in 5:th edition with the first Bretonnian armybook.



Inquisitor Gideon wrote:So what are the odds that all these old kits they're bringing back are going to end up being direct order only?


Probably low but I would love to be wrong. It would be great to be able to pick up some classic kits with a discount!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518826.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518826.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Also, I've been reading this a lot in this thread but can someone link or DM me sites where they sell third party base adapters please?

Thanks in advance.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518858.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518858.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518871.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518871.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 ImAGeek wrote:
Returning models, especially as old as Bretonnia, has sapped a lot of my enthusiasm to be honest. There’s a reason I didn’t have a bretonnia army, and that was 10-15 years ago. They’re only going to look worse next to new models that they are getting.

Brets are going to get new models, unless the preview they had a while back was for an upgrade sprue which admittedly would suck. I think these pics were meant to show that old players could use their old models from the start and not have to feel they have to toss them and buy the new Primaris Brets.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518876.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518876.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518877.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518877.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! TBH 20mm was indeed a bit too tight as they kept releasing new models in Battle's last years. It's honestly for the better.

Now waiting for KoW to do the same. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518881.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518881.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Platuan4th wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:
Spent ages rebasing to round AoS (O&G army), its not fun so yeah good luck with that.


Yeah, not rebasing 600+ Skaven, 500+ Goblins, plus all the other armies with 100-300 models.


I rebased my 2nd 40K Terminators to 40mm. Those were maybe 20 models (SM & CSM). Not a big deal. Just glued them on the new base without scrapping the sand of it. However there are also around 100 night goblins in my collection and these will stay on 25mm otherwise I would go nuts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Londinium wrote:
The base creep will also allow some more dynamic WHFB units as well, which I'm all for. As much as I dislike AOS, one of it's few positives is the dynamism and beauty of some of the new models.

While WHFB is never going to have this fully, aside from with characters and monsters, it's a decent half way house allowing for a bit more flair in the rank and file.

For people moaning about having to rebase, just use movement trays.


You can´t be an individual in a regiment. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518899.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518899.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518904.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518904.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Unless the individual doesn't matter and only the units base size, which then makes me wonder why they wouldn't just go full kings of war multibase style? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518906.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518906.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 triplegrim wrote:
 Tronbot2600 wrote:
Finally! Trying to rank up 6th - 8th edition kits is such a pain...I have way too many units that have to be assembled in exactly the same way every time or they don't rank up at all.

I probably won't actually re-base my current armies but invest in some new movement trays with spacers so I can switch between editions if I needed.


Have to agree. When I saw the base size rumor over at Faeit I took out my 3 x 20 stormvermin and 3 x 30 clanrats and they simply cant rank up with command and a hero. Not without some difficulty at least.

If they make 20 models the size of a large infantry unit, 25mm is ok to increase to. For friendly games with old armies, no big deal if you dont rebase.

Yeah, readying my Stormvermin always used to give me a huge headache. I had the bases magnetized and used steel trays, so there would be an occasional violent connection, and with all those skinny halberds poking everywhere it always felt like a coin toss whether I would snap something. Clanrats weren't quite as bad, but their weapons were even flimsier and more at risk. Even at the time it was abundantly clear that larger bases were a necessity.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518910.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518910.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW won't be doing 20mm bases and sounds like they are getting rid of their 23.5x50m (or what ever odd size they actually were, as they are not 25mmx50mm!) as I would have liked a matching and easy source for more of those for my goblin army.

I'm looking forward to the 'its the end times' threads due to GW 'demanding' base size changes. But for all the things they can and have changed in the past, this isn't that much of an issue outside of those that play with very 'strict' groups.



]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518928.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518928.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 The Phazer wrote:
That seems the most common sense approach. Really, base sizes barely worked by the end of WFB, they needed to go up.

I mean, it could be argued that the better approach would be to have designed models to fit within the established base sizes... but obviously it's a little hard to cram that particular genie back into the right sized bottle now.

Skink and goblin units are going to look silly on 25mm bases. Likewise most human-sized or smaller archers... the article pic with the Bretonnian archers has massive spaces between the models in each rank.



I'm more likely to stick with 5th edition, so will also be sticking with the older bases. But it's nice to have confirmation of older kits coming back...


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518932.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518932.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! MDF companies producing mvoement trays with 20mm slots spaced to work as 25mm bases, do you think?

Flush with the front, 5mm spacer between bases, 2,5mm at the flanks. Shouldn't be tricky to design.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518934.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518934.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! MDF and 3D print movement trays for AoS models to work in Old World.

Heck we might even see some base adaptors for monstrous and larger models if they can work.

I expect adaptation because people will want to use armies in both games; esp since a good chunk of AoS armies are just Old World armies]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518936.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518936.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Dysartes wrote:
How long before we see one of the MDF companies producing mvoement trays with 20mm slots spaced to work as 25mm bases, do you think?

Flush with the front, 5mm spacer between bases, 2,5mm at the flanks. Shouldn't be tricky to design.
I've had Litko do custom stuff for me in the past and they could do that easy (and probably not all that expensive, honestly)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518937.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518937.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Dysartes wrote:
How long before we see one of the MDF companies producing mvoement trays with 20mm slots spaced to work as 25mm bases, do you think?

Flush with the front, 5mm spacer between bases, 2,5mm at the flanks. Shouldn't be tricky to design.

they already exist for a game called Oathmark charlie foxtrot models makes them

https://www.charliefoxtrotmodels.com/blogs/news/new-releases-movement-tray-for-20mm-bases-oathmark-size

But your probably right in that we will se a lot more companies making them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518945.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518945.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Sasorijap wrote:
They clearly say they are bringing back old kits


Nothing about what models return and what not though. Could be bret gets all new and it's elves, dwarves etc who gets old models. Could be eret gets mostly old with maybe new heroes, grail/questing knights(think these were metal?) And maybe new unit.

Hard to say what returns and what is new.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518965.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518965.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
tneva82 wrote:
Nothing about what models return and what not though. Could be bret gets all new and it's elves, dwarves etc who gets old models. Could be eret gets mostly old with maybe new heroes, grail/questing knights(think these were metal?) And maybe new unit.

I would by surprised if they chose to showcase an army using models that aren't actually going to be re-released, though. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518970.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518970.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 insaniak wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Nothing about what models return and what not though. Could be bret gets all new and it's elves, dwarves etc who gets old models. Could be eret gets mostly old with maybe new heroes, grail/questing knights(think these were metal?) And maybe new unit.

I would by surprised if they chose to showcase an army using models that aren't actually going to be re-released, though.



Unless they want to keep new models secret.

But yes that would fall on 2nd case i mentioned. We'll see.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518973.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518973.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
The most likely scenario, IMO, would be that any of the old plastic kits that fit into whatever redesign they have put the army books through will see a re-release, and new models (at least to begin with) will be those that were previously metal or 'fine'cast.

Given how much stuff they need to release to get the game going, that seems like the only logical route. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518977.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518977.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Instead it looks like we're keeping the old core units and getting plastic versions of metal kits or new units. That strikes me as a pretty weird way to do things. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518990.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11518990.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW would keep new models close to the chest before the release of the 40K. Given how well The trebuchet looks i think it is metal and not Finecast.

I really like the confirmation of Grail and Questing Knights and the new Foot Knights are part of the list. The Plastics we saw last month a likely part of the foot knight kit.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519000.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519000.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Chikout wrote:
They specifically said they painted up the army for photography which means this army is going to feature in a book. It would be pretty strange to use obselete minis in the rulebooks of a new edition. It does seem that the knights of the realm kit is not going to be updated, which is a pretty big surprise after last month's news. I really thought we'd get a starter box with all new models for the core Bretonnia and Tomb kings units.

Instead it looks like we're keeping the old core units and getting plastic versions of metal kits or new units. That strikes me as a pretty weird way to do things.


Less expenses for one. Plastic sprues aren't free.

How many new SKU's you expect to get?

New KoTR, keep metal grain knights instead?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519002.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519002.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Strg Alt wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:
Spent ages rebasing to round AoS (O&G army), its not fun so yeah good luck with that.


Yeah, not rebasing 600+ Skaven, 500+ Goblins, plus all the other armies with 100-300 models.


I rebased my 2nd 40K Terminators to 40mm. Those were maybe 20 models (SM & CSM). Not a big deal. Just glued them on the new base without scrapping the sand of it. However there are also around 100 night goblins in my collection and these will stay on 25mm otherwise I would go nuts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Londinium wrote:
The base creep will also allow some more dynamic WHFB units as well, which I'm all for. As much as I dislike AOS, one of it's few positives is the dynamism and beauty of some of the new models.

While WHFB is never going to have this fully, aside from with characters and monsters, it's a decent half way house allowing for a bit more flair in the rank and file.

For people moaning about having to rebase, just use movement trays.


You can´t be an individual in a regiment.


This can't be stressed enough. You can spot the people who've never moved let alone fought in formations before in this discussion. The reason those blocks worked is because of unison movement. You were SUPPOSED to look exactly like the person next to you.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519031.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519031.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Chikout wrote:
They specifically said they painted up the army for photography which means this army is going to feature in a book. It would be pretty strange to use obselete minis in the rulebooks of a new edition. It does seem that the knights of the realm kit is not going to be updated, which is a pretty big surprise after last month's news. I really thought we'd get a starter box with all new models for the core Bretonnia and Tomb kings units.

Instead it looks like we're keeping the old core units and getting plastic versions of metal kits or new units. That strikes me as a pretty weird way to do things.


The rumors says a small 2023 release, empire vs orcs or perhaps empire vs chaos. Then fam favorites Dwarf and maybe Kislev. Which means not Bretonnia or Tomb King release the first year or so. Could be they will be selling the old models for the armies not re-released to get the game going and feed the marked dry of nostalgia purchases and then pimp the new shiny models a year or so into TOW]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519042.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519042.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Also while they say they gonna sell bases of the new size, I wonder if it's gonna be all flat bases, or some option with slotta in them. All the old metal minis with tab would like that.

I'm not against the change here, the minis definitely needed that. Some units were a puzzle that only fitted one way and you had to plan it during the gluing stage, otherwise you could end up with minis that just don't rank up at all.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519068.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519068.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Skywave wrote:
I'm not sure if I'll go over and redo bases for my armies (6 or 7 of them), that would be quite a task to say the least. For my Tomb Kings alone I have about 12k points so that's a lot of bases!

Also while they say they gonna sell bases of the new size, I wonder if it's gonna be all flat bases, or some option with slotta in them. All the old metal minis with tab would like that.

I'm not against the change here, the minis definitely needed that. Some units were a puzzle that only fitted one way and you had to plan it during the gluing stage, otherwise you could end up with minis that just don't rank up at all.


25mm with slotta is available from 3rd parties already in the aftermarket. I think I can probably rebase even a large 3000 pts army in an evening. Its painting and flocking that is the problem.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519083.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519083.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519093.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519093.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! AoS and newer 40K that we keep losing options for how we can outfit heroes or what they can be mounted on.

I'd love to see a proper necromancer on a corpse cart again or Empire Generals armed with pistols and hand weapons.

Heck, Battle Standard Bearers will be wonderful to see again too.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519094.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519094.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Scottywan82 wrote:
The more I think about it, one of the key things I want from TOW is the ability to customize heroes again. It's been very disappointing in AoS and newer 40K that we keep losing options for how we can outfit heroes or what they can be mounted on.

I'd love to see a proper necromancer on a corpse cart again or Empire Generals armed with pistols and hand weapons.

Heck, Battle Standard Bearers will be wonderful to see again too.


Not gonna happen, unless you get lucky and get a decent rulesteam like HH.
Afterall it would open the door to 3rd parties.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519098.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519098.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
I will make some 30X60 rectangle and squares of 30 and 32.

I have a couple of Westwind armies of elves and dwarves that I could never get to rank up so those will be usable finally.

Have not purchased much from GW in the past few years but I will be looking in to this and perhaps buying. I am not going to spend $80 for a box of 10 plastic goblins though. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519103.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519103.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Strg Alt wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:
Spent ages rebasing to round AoS (O&G army), its not fun so yeah good luck with that.


Yeah, not rebasing 600+ Skaven, 500+ Goblins, plus all the other armies with 100-300 models.


I rebased my 2nd 40K Terminators to 40mm. Those were maybe 20 models (SM & CSM). Not a big deal. Just glued them on the new base without scrapping the sand of it. However there are also around 100 night goblins in my collection and these will stay on 25mm otherwise I would go nuts.


Yeah, so did I. And ~60 power armored Thousand Sons to the 32's when those became standard. It's fine when it's about 20-30 models, it gets real time consuming and annoying when it's large numbers of models and I have literally thousands I'd need to redo if I rebased.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519106.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519106.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Scottywan82 wrote:
The more I think about it, one of the key things I want from TOW is the ability to customize heroes again. It's been very disappointing in AoS and newer 40K that we keep losing options for how we can outfit heroes or what they can be mounted on.

I'd love to see a proper necromancer on a corpse cart again or Empire Generals armed with pistols and hand weapons.

Heck, Battle Standard Bearers will be wonderful to see again too.


Not gonna happen, unless you get lucky and get a decent rulestime like HH.
Afterall it would open the door to 3rd parties.


When you look at the last months Bretonnian pictures about the swords and axes, then you can see that it has similiar connection points like on the old models.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519109.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519109.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Scottywan82 wrote:
The more I think about it, one of the key things I want from TOW is the ability to customize heroes again. It's been very disappointing in AoS and newer 40K that we keep losing options for how we can outfit heroes or what they can be mounted on.

I'd love to see a proper necromancer on a corpse cart again or Empire Generals armed with pistols and hand weapons.

Heck, Battle Standard Bearers will be wonderful to see again too.


Yeah that’s one of my big things I miss in AoS. The old Vampire Lords with like 100 points to spend on vampiric powers, or Chaos Lords with boons and mutations, Slann powers, magic weapons, 3 or 4 mount options, etc. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519121.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519121.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519136.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519136.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Chaos Dwarves returning would probably get me to jump in right away, but I doubt they'll appear any time soon.

I do feel sympathy for anyone who has to rebase 200+ miniatures, though. :(]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519139.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519139.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
For heroes and leaders and monsters you might even get away just sticking the current based model on top of a larger base - like a plinth. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519141.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519141.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 herjan1987 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Scottywan82 wrote:
The more I think about it, one of the key things I want from TOW is the ability to customize heroes again. It's been very disappointing in AoS and newer 40K that we keep losing options for how we can outfit heroes or what they can be mounted on.

I'd love to see a proper necromancer on a corpse cart again or Empire Generals armed with pistols and hand weapons.

Heck, Battle Standard Bearers will be wonderful to see again too.


Not gonna happen, unless you get lucky and get a decent rulestime like HH.
Afterall it would open the door to 3rd parties.


When you look at the last months Bretonnian pictures about the swords and axes, then you can see that it has similiar connection points like on the old models.


true that, but that doesn't necessarily translate into customizable rules for HQ / Heros and lord choices.
I hope that GW will go the HH route in regards to rules for that ( and provide kits that support this ontop, stuff like ye terminator lord of old f.e.) but i dread that we may just as well see GSC charachter level customisation ( 0 )]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519143.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519143.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Not Online!!! wrote:
 herjan1987 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Scottywan82 wrote:
The more I think about it, one of the key things I want from TOW is the ability to customize heroes again. It's been very disappointing in AoS and newer 40K that we keep losing options for how we can outfit heroes or what they can be mounted on.

I'd love to see a proper necromancer on a corpse cart again or Empire Generals armed with pistols and hand weapons.

Heck, Battle Standard Bearers will be wonderful to see again too.


Not gonna happen, unless you get lucky and get a decent rulestime like HH.
Afterall it would open the door to 3rd parties.


When you look at the last months Bretonnian pictures about the swords and axes, then you can see that it has similiar connection points like on the old models.


true that, but that doesn't necessarily translate into customizable rules for HQ / Heros and lord choices.
I hope that GW will go the HH route in regards to rules for that ( and provide kits that support this ontop, stuff like ye terminator lord of old f.e.) but i dread that we may just as well see GSC charachter level customisation ( 0 )


If the connection points are same, then why cant 3rd parties print what ever they want?
Of course, if rules dont support it, thats an other in thing enterily, but what about magic items? They are core part of Warhammer Fantasy and they said, that they gather stuff from older editions. Why cant I convert my Empire captain with an awsome 3rd party Sword of Might, if I can?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519146.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519146.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 nathan2004 wrote:
Can anyone speak to the lore around this time regarding Orcs and Goblins...were they united as 1 army or would they be separate from each other and act as 2 independent armies...apologies if this is a silly question but I'm not super up to date on the lore and my little brother is starting O&G and we're both curious about this.


The major Waaaagh event from the period of the Three Emperors is Gorbad Ironclaw's invasion about 150 years into the time period, which covers about 750 years in total. But in general, Orcs & Goblins have always been both mixed tribes and segregated tribes in any time period.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519153.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519153.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Will the old style Warhammer game be released in 2023, since it is after all the 40th anniversary?

Apologies, I literally am just seeing this news for first time. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519182.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519182.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519188.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519188.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
As for release, we don't know. I think people have talked about rumors that there would at least be a launch box or something this year, but I don't know if that is credible. Best case scenario, we'll get something on GW's intentions at Warhammer Fest in two weeks. Worst case, GW lets the 10th ed 40k take its course before they try to tempt people with anything else.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519191.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519191.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Grzzldgamerps5 wrote:
Are the pics in newest article of new upcoming Bret minis? Or are they the old ones?

Will the old style Warhammer game be released in 2023, since it is after all the 40th anniversary?

Apologies, I literally am just seeing this news for first time.


The newest article:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/14/old-world-development-diary-on-bases-and-the-barons-of-bretonnia/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=the-old-world&utm_content=tow14042023]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519192.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519192.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Geifer wrote:
Yeah, those are old models.

As for release, we don't know. I think people have talked about rumors that there would at least be a launch box or something this year, but I don't know if that is credible. Best case scenario, we'll get something on GW's intentions at Warhammer Fest in two weeks. Worst case, GW lets the 10th ed 40k take its course before they try to tempt people with anything else.


The article makes it clear fest has more info about tow.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519197.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519197.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
tneva82 wrote:
 Geifer wrote:
Yeah, those are old models.

As for release, we don't know. I think people have talked about rumors that there would at least be a launch box or something this year, but I don't know if that is credible. Best case scenario, we'll get something on GW's intentions at Warhammer Fest in two weeks. Worst case, GW lets the 10th ed 40k take its course before they try to tempt people with anything else.


The article makes it clear fest has more info about tow.



Yes, but it does not specify what that information is. I was responding specifically to a question about the release of The Old World.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519205.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519205.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519232.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519232.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
OK nevermind -- there is no way they are all new, the article is focused on the larger bases.
Good info in there.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519240.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519240.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Shrapnelsmile wrote:
are the models pictured painted in the above article actual models from the upcoming game? I cannot ascertain their wording on this.

No, they're the old stuff.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519242.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519242.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Could be a starter box in the fall, and army boxes of the old armies in place of holiday battalions, and then push for new models next year


Why would the cut out one of their biggest sellers of the year for that?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519250.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519250.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519252.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519252.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW isn't going to invest in redoing every single Old World army for a side game when AoS and 40k can't even get certain factions out of the dark ages.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519254.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519254.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
I can understand why some people are still interested in the game, but for me, its a deal breaker]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519265.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519265.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! the starter will have some new models in it. And i do like the old brets.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519271.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519271.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 streetsamurai wrote:
All these old kits coming back pretty much killed my interest for this game. Seems like it will be a half assed affair


Well. Alternative was models for sale for 2 factions to begin with. Rest would be "here's quick army lists but no models for sale. Hunt for ebay for oop models at prices higher than even we are asking for.".

You really would prefer that instead?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519272.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519272.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 streetsamurai wrote:
After all, they wouldnt bring back these kits if they intend to replace them in a few years.


That doesn't make any sense. GW aren't going to rework every faction straight away, and this way they can still sell models until they do. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519276.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519276.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Could be a starter box in the fall, and army boxes of the old armies in place of holiday battalions, and then push for new models next year


Why would the cut out one of their biggest sellers of the year for that?


Production capability? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519288.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519288.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
bobthe4th wrote:
 streetsamurai wrote:
After all, they wouldnt bring back these kits if they intend to replace them in a few years.


That doesn't make any sense. GW aren't going to rework every faction straight away, and this way they can still sell models until they do.


It does make sense if you actually read what i posted. I dont expect them to release all 12 armies (if not more) day one. But them releasing old kits alongside new ones (they showed renders of new brettonians) pretty muc proves that at least some armies will be a mishmash of decades old kits and new kits (and GW being GW, i shudder just thinking at the price theyll put on these old garbage) . As i said, if its acceptable to some people, cool for them, but that doesn't interest me, especially since theres a few alternative games that have full armies that are all pretty new.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519291.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519291.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
no model release at the beginning would be bad, yet an old model release is not better given a big reason why mean people did not invest during 8th was the missing updated of core units

a starter box with new models and a book release might have been the best option as i don't think any newcomer is going to order the old stuff while the people who are going to buy to fill their collection is limited

lurch wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
How long before we see one of the MDF companies producing mvoement trays with 20mm slots spaced to work as 25mm bases, do you think?
Flush with the front, 5mm spacer between bases, 2,5mm at the flanks. Shouldn't be tricky to design.

they already exist for a game called Oathmark charlie foxtrot models makes them
https://www.charliefoxtrotmodels.com/blogs/news/new-releases-movement-tray-for-20mm-bases-oathmark-size
But your probably right in that we will se a lot more companies making them.

Overread wrote:Thing is if the bases are going up in size then you can get away just keeping them on the same bases and using movement trays of the correct size with small slots in for your models.
the big problem with those solutions is that it makes it very hard to change formation as expanding from 5 files to 7 during melee you either need to have another regimentsbase with 7 files or you need to keep the space manually
both are not practical during gameplay (there is a reason why R&F games with formation changes uses multi-bases instead of single model bases)

one simple solution is to use magnets and 25mm sheets under the bases, or multibases with spaces for 4 models (2x2) on a tray
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519292.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519292.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 streetsamurai wrote:
After all, they wouldnt bring back these kits if they intend to replace them in a few years.

Why not? For plastic models, at least, these are kits that should have fully-functional molds ready to go, so the only cost to GW is in new packaging (and maybe modern assembly instructions). I would imagine most - if not all - of those molds made their investment back when they were originally in production, so from GWs perspective, they won't be losing anything if/when they're replaced with a newer kit down the line.

As long as they're clear as to whether certain kits will be replaced eventually, even the consumer isn't losing out - they can buy kits to get started with TOW, or hold off on certain units knowing there will be newer models coming later.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519293.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519293.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 MajorWesJanson wrote:
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Could be a starter box in the fall, and army boxes of the old armies in place of holiday battalions, and then push for new models next year


Why would the cut out one of their biggest sellers of the year for that?


Production capability?


Never, not for such big sellers. I have this horrible feeling people are vastly over estimating just how much support this is going to get.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519295.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519295.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519296.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519296.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Dysartes wrote:
 streetsamurai wrote:
After all, they wouldnt bring back these kits if they intend to replace them in a few years.

Why not? For plastic models, at least, these are kits that should have fully-functional molds ready to go, so the only cost to GW is in new packaging (and maybe modern assembly instructions). I would imagine most - if not all - of those molds made their investment back when they were originally in production, so from GWs perspective, they won't be losing anything if/when they're replaced with a newer kit down the line.

As long as they're clear as to whether certain kits will be replaced eventually, even the consumer isn't losing out - they can buy kits to get started with TOW, or hold off on certain units knowing there will be newer models coming later.


That would be a horrible pr/marketing move by GW. Imagine releasing these old kits, and replacing them a year or 2 afterward. People who bought them would be furious, it wpuld cause a gakstorm. GW management is pretty competent since kirby left, so id be very surprised to see them doing such a rookie mistake

Edit: just saw that you wrote that if GW is transparent about it, it's no big deal. And yes, on that, i agree with you. If thats the case, i might change my opinion, but i think its really farfetched]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519297.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519297.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 streetsamurai wrote:
That would be a horrible pr move by GW. Imagine releasing these old kits, and replacing them a year or 2 afterward. People who bought them would be furious, it wpuld cause a gakstorm. GW management is pretty competent since kirby left, so id be very surprised to see them doing such a rookie mistake


Why would it? Even though they'd be brought back, they're still old kits that should be replaced at some point. I don't see why the situation would be any different than any of the other times they've updated and replaced kits. As long as those old models aren't entirely invalidated it shouldn't really be a problem. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519298.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519298.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 streetsamurai wrote:
bobthe4th wrote:
 streetsamurai wrote:
After all, they wouldnt bring back these kits if they intend to replace them in a few years.


That doesn't make any sense. GW aren't going to rework every faction straight away, and this way they can still sell models until they do.


It does make sense if you actually read what i posted. I dont expect them to release all 12 armies (if not more) day one. But them releasing old kits alongside new ones (they showed renders of new brettonians) pretty muc proves that at least some armies will be a mishmash of decades old kits and new kits (and GW being GW, i shudder just thinking at the price theyll put on these old garbage) . As i said, if its acceptable to some people, cool for them, but that doesn't interest me, especially since theres a few alternative games that have full armies that are all pretty new.



So you really would prefer just 2 playable armies to begin with with maybe army per year if that rate for new?

So to get all armies back to TOW we would be looking at 2030 or so maybe. Of course by that time it would be TOW 2nd or 3rd edition.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519303.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519303.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519305.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519305.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
tneva82 wrote:
So you really would prefer just 2 playable armies to begin with with maybe army per year if that rate for new?
who said there should be no rules for other armies at the start?

or do you think not a single person who wants to start that game does not have an army and needs to buy a new one to start?
if this is not for the nostalgia but just for all new people who have never played Warhammer or AoS before, this would be a very strange release]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519309.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519309.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 streetsamurai wrote:
Of course, every kit is bound to be replaced. But if it gets done too soon, people who bought the old kits will be understandably upset. If your old enough, you just have to rebember how upset people were when they were churning out books that were outdated a few months after. Now, it's true that its different for minis, since the old minis are still usable, but the new kits will look so much better that theyll be aesthetically obsolete, hence the anger




They're just as "aesthetically obsolete" as any of the other updates models have got and will get over the years. Regardless of how long it was the Cadian update or the Tyranid update or any of the others made peoples purchased models outdated. If they were brand new kits being replaced (like what sort of happened with the Cadian upgrade sprue) than sure, I could understand it, but when it's a decade+ release that by design standards is already obsolete regardless of that being the 'current' kit, I don't see that much issue. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519314.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519314.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 streetsamurai wrote:
Of course, every kit is bound to be replaced. But if it gets done too soon, people who bought the old kits will be understandably upset. If your old enough, you just have to rebember how upset people were when they were churning out books that were outdated a few months after. Now, it's true that its different for minis, since the old minis are still usable, but the new kits will look so much better that theyll be aesthetically obsolete, hence the anger




They're just as "aesthetically obsolete" as any of the other updates models have got and will get over the years. Regardless of how long it was the Cadian update or the Tyranid update or any of the others made peoples purchased models outdated. If they were brand new kits being replaced (like what sort of happened with the Cadian upgrade sprue) than sure, I could understand it, but when it's a decade+ release that by design standards is already obsolete regardless of that being the 'current' kit, I don't see that much issue.


You really think that people wont be upset if they spend hundreds if not thousands on kits, and spend multiple hours gluing, painting and basing them, only to see them replaced by much much better looking ones a few months later?

Like really?

As i said before, if GW is transparent about it, than fair game, but as i said, i find this whole scenario of GW re releasing old kits only to replace them shortly after very farfetched]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519316.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519316.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519318.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519318.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! AoS exclusive stuff will stay there.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519319.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519319.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 streetsamurai wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 streetsamurai wrote:
Of course, every kit is bound to be replaced. But if it gets done too soon, people who bought the old kits will be understandably upset. If your old enough, you just have to rebember how upset people were when they were churning out books that were outdated a few months after. Now, it's true that its different for minis, since the old minis are still usable, but the new kits will look so much better that theyll be aesthetically obsolete, hence the anger




They're just as "aesthetically obsolete" as any of the other updates models have got and will get over the years. Regardless of how long it was the Cadian update or the Tyranid update or any of the others made peoples purchased models outdated. If they were brand new kits being replaced (like what sort of happened with the Cadian upgrade sprue) than sure, I could understand it, but when it's a decade+ release that by design standards is already obsolete regardless of that being the 'current' kit, I don't see that much issue.


You really think that people wont be upset if they spend hundreds if not thousands on kits, and spend multiple hours gluing, painting and basing them, only to see them replaced by much much better looking ones a few months later?

Like really?

As i said before, if GW is transparent about it, than fair game, but as i said, i find this whole scenario of GW re releasing old kits only to replace them shortly after very farfetched


That's an issue that can happen at practically any point if the kit has been out for a while, however. I don't see a difference between that situation and someone getting into Tyranids just a few months ago and finding now that they're being replaced and their models are outdated. Yes, some would obviously be unhappy, but they are old kits and that's just what happens eventually. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519321.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519321.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 streetsamurai wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 streetsamurai wrote:
Of course, every kit is bound to be replaced. But if it gets done too soon, people who bought the old kits will be understandably upset. If your old enough, you just have to rebember how upset people were when they were churning out books that were outdated a few months after. Now, it's true that its different for minis, since the old minis are still usable, but the new kits will look so much better that theyll be aesthetically obsolete, hence the anger




They're just as "aesthetically obsolete" as any of the other updates models have got and will get over the years. Regardless of how long it was the Cadian update or the Tyranid update or any of the others made peoples purchased models outdated. If they were brand new kits being replaced (like what sort of happened with the Cadian upgrade sprue) than sure, I could understand it, but when it's a decade+ release that by design standards is already obsolete regardless of that being the 'current' kit, I don't see that much issue.


You really think that people wont be upset if they spend hundreds if not thousands on kits, and spend multiple hours gluing, painting and basing them, only to see them replaced by much much better looking ones a few months later?

Like really?

As i said before, if GW is transparent about it, than fair game, but as i said, i find this whole scenario of GW re releasing old kits only to replace them shortly after very farfetched


That's an issue that can happen at practically any point if the kit has been out for a while, however. I don't see a difference between that situation and someone getting into Tyranids just a few months ago and finding now that they're being replaced and their models are outdated. Yes, some would obviously be unhappy, but they are old kits and that's just what happens eventually.


I think its a very different situation (old kit always being sold vs old kit getting re released), but it seems that we have a different perspective on the situation.

Cool enough]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519324.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519324.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Regardless of how long it was the Cadian update or the Tyranid update or any of the others made peoples purchased models outdated. If they were brand new kits being replaced (like what sort of happened with the Cadian upgrade sprue) than sure, I could understand it, but when it's a decade+ release that by design standards is already obsolete regardless of that being the 'current' kit, I don't see that much issue.
the problem is a different one here, as Cadia got all new models
so you either have the old range with a consistent design or the new range with a consistent design

just imagine that with the new book, there would have been the new heavy weapons, new tanks and new artillery, but the core troopers would have stayed the old ones with the upgrade sprue
and next year the new core troopers release, now again with a different design as the new heavy weapons, tanks and artillery
or Tyranids now getting all new units except Gaunts, which will be added next year when everyone with a new army already got the old ones

this is the status of nearly all warhammer armies, core troops being from a different design and age as the special units and if there is now a new release just updating the core, you end up again with an inconsistent design

and this will case rage]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519329.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519329.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 streetsamurai wrote:
Of course, every kit is bound to be replaced. But if it gets done too soon, people who bought the old kits will be understandably upset. If your old enough, you just have to rebember how upset people were when they were churning out books that were outdated a few months after.


Old enough? They did that this year!



IMO, models are different. There's a case for MTO or direct sales of old WFB models with the game launch, because the ranges aren't going to be instant, and people know that they'll be buying into a possible model reboot.
And models, unlike books, can last for multiple editions of the game.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519330.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519330.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
I share the concern that if they are the only way to get a "new army", I'm probably not going to buy them, which means I possibly won't buy anything.

There seem to be people who think differently - and want to get hold of the 6th edition minis they couldn't back then. But I don't think its unreasonable to not be overly interested. If I didn't think the sculpts were that hot in say 2010, I really don't think they'll hold up now.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519338.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519338.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 kodos wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Regardless of how long it was the Cadian update or the Tyranid update or any of the others made peoples purchased models outdated. If they were brand new kits being replaced (like what sort of happened with the Cadian upgrade sprue) than sure, I could understand it, but when it's a decade+ release that by design standards is already obsolete regardless of that being the 'current' kit, I don't see that much issue.
the problem is a different one here, as Cadia got all new models
so you either have the old range with a consistent design or the new range with a consistent design

just imagine that with the new book, there would have been the new heavy weapons, new tanks and new artillery, but the core troopers would have stayed the old ones with the upgrade sprue
and next year the new core troopers release, now again with a different design as the new heavy weapons, tanks and artillery
or Tyranids now getting all new units except Gaunts, which will be added next year when everyone with a new army already got the old ones

this is the status of nearly all warhammer armies, core troops being from a different design and age as the special units and if there is now a new release just updating the core, you end up again with an inconsistent design

and this will case rage


Aesthetics changing would be a problem, like the new Cadians next to the old ones, but just moderizing a kit while keeping that old look (for the most part) shouldn't be an issue. That the artwork shown for this project is using the old designs suggests they aren't going to substantially change designs if/when new stuff releases. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519348.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519348.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 streetsamurai wrote:
All these old kits coming back pretty much killed my interest for this game. Seems like it will be a half assed affair


Fair enough. Indeed, model-wise this game is absolutely going to be a half assed affair, initially. For obvious reasons it would be impossible for GW to provide a full range of new miniatures for every fantasy faction on day one. They never did that with the old WFB, and they won't be doing it now. Just imagine what a ridiculous amount of new kits that would be. Even a modest 5 new plastic kits for each faction* would mean a whopping 80 new kits in total.

My guess is that there's absolutely going to be a solid amount of new exciting plastic kits to go along with the launch, but GW will only really start showing us those when the launch date is approaching. That's when they want to be maxing the hype. I'll reserve my judgement until we see how much new stuff they've actually got for us.

*Empire, Bretonnia, Kislev, Dwarfs, High Elves, Dark Elves, Wood Elves, Lizardmen, Ogre Kingdoms, Orcs & Goblins, Vampire Counts, Tomb Kings, Skaven, Warriors of Chaos, Beasts of Chaos, Daemons of Chaos. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519354.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519354.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! TK kits and sell them at 50$ or above.

That would be embarrassing for them


Automatically Appended Next Post:
While i hate the news, brettonians at least are fairly decent kit. Still, I wonder if theyll have the chutzpah to re release these terrible terrible TK kits and sell them at 50$ or above.

That would be embarrassing for them ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519363.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519363.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Dysartes wrote:
How long before we see one of the MDF companies producing mvoement trays with 20mm slots spaced to work as 25mm bases, do you think?

Flush with the front, 5mm spacer between bases, 2,5mm at the flanks. Shouldn't be tricky to design.


Now


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I will say, I'm fine with them releasing the knights again. They are damn good looking for their time, and still do relatively today. They were good kit.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519423.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519423.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Dysartes wrote:
How long before we see one of the MDF companies producing mvoement trays with 20mm slots spaced to work as 25mm bases, do you think?

Flush with the front, 5mm spacer between bases, 2,5mm at the flanks. Shouldn't be tricky to design.


The Google term you're looking for is "Oathmark movement tray 20mm bases".]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519452.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519452.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
I like to think there is a market for rank and file which is why they are bringing this back and I hope they don’t torpedo the launch of this with crazy pricing coupled with 50+ block units for practically all the armies.

I hope in the 4 (or more) years in development they at least figured this part out but time will tell. I personally think there is potential to hit a grand slam here but only time will tell if it’s done right. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519453.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519453.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Aesthetics changing would be a problem, like the new Cadians next to the old ones, but just moderizing a kit while keeping that old look (for the most part) shouldn't be an issue. That the artwork shown for this project is using the old designs suggests they aren't going to substantially change designs if/when new stuff releases.
you misunderstood, the mixed aesthetic, like old Cadian next to ne ons, is the current state of the armies (just that the new sculpts are already old)

So to start the new Edition GW is releasing an army with mixed aesthetic and there is a maybe that some models are upgraded (but we don't know if in the style of the new Cadians or old Cadians)
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519463.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519463.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
4 x 15 chaos warriors with frontage of 5 dudes will have a total lenght of 74cm with 32mm bases and an inch between each unit.

It works at 4x6 foot I guess. If they reduce the playing field, its going to get cramped.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519466.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519466.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Kings of War has Horde formations, Black Powder has the as well and that those wide formations are limited in movement is part of the game and balance of the units

It all depends what the minimum size will be as if the 6x3 is going to be the standard, playing larger games than 1500 points will be an issue (the positive part is less models and lower entry cost, which might GWs solution to the 8th Edition problem ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519468.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519468.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 triplegrim wrote:
Is anyone else worried about the larger footprint of units making the movement phase a rank'n flank fiasko?

4 x 15 chaos warriors with frontage of 5 dudes will have a total lenght of 74cm with 32mm bases and an inch between each unit.

It works at 4x6 foot I guess. If they reduce the playing field, its going to get cramped.



Bigger models / bases on smaller tables seems to be the way GW are pushing at the mo so this may be intentional.

As someone who plays 2nd Ed 40k on an 8x4 table the Uber cramped contemporary 40k games I see in the wild look gross, but it’s clearly not an issue for GW or their player base so I’d say this is something Old World players are going to have to lump.

I’ve got blocks of 25mm base models 10 wide and they are already too burdensome to use properly, adding another 2 bases (assuming a 5mm increase per base, or their abouts) and it’s gonna get ugly. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519473.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519473.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Luke82 wrote:
 triplegrim wrote:
Is anyone else worried about the larger footprint of units making the movement phase a rank'n flank fiasko?

4 x 15 chaos warriors with frontage of 5 dudes will have a total lenght of 74cm with 32mm bases and an inch between each unit.

It works at 4x6 foot I guess. If they reduce the playing field, its going to get cramped.



Bigger models / bases on smaller tables seems to be the way GW are pushing at the mo so this may be intentional.

As someone who plays 2nd Ed 40k on an 8x4 table the Uber cramped contemporary 40k games I see in the wild look gross, but it’s clearly not an issue for GW or their player base so I’d say this is something Old World players are going to have to lump.

I’ve got blocks of 25mm base models 10 wide and they are already too burdensome to use properly, adding another 2 bases (assuming a 5mm increase per base, or their abouts) and it’s gonna get ugly.


You are on to something. There are 144 square inches in 1 square foot. A 25mm base is one square inch.

A regular army with 5 x 20 infantry, two cannons, some light cav and a monster pretty much is a square foot.

So with two armies at 4x4 feet, some terrain, spacing between units and corners not used, it might get cramped. And then I havent even tried to calculate 32mm or monstrous infantry. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519481.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519481.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 triplegrim wrote:
Luke82 wrote:
 triplegrim wrote:
Is anyone else worried about the larger footprint of units making the movement phase a rank'n flank fiasko?

4 x 15 chaos warriors with frontage of 5 dudes will have a total lenght of 74cm with 32mm bases and an inch between each unit.

It works at 4x6 foot I guess. If they reduce the playing field, its going to get cramped.



Bigger models / bases on smaller tables seems to be the way GW are pushing at the mo so this may be intentional.

As someone who plays 2nd Ed 40k on an 8x4 table the Uber cramped contemporary 40k games I see in the wild look gross, but it’s clearly not an issue for GW or their player base so I’d say this is something Old World players are going to have to lump.

I’ve got blocks of 25mm base models 10 wide and they are already too burdensome to use properly, adding another 2 bases (assuming a 5mm increase per base, or their abouts) and it’s gonna get ugly.


You are on to something. There are 144 square inches in 1 square foot. A 25mm base is one square inch.

A regular army with 5 x 20 infantry, two cannons, some light cav and a monster pretty much is a square foot.

So with two armies at 4x4 feet, some terrain, spacing between units and corners not used, it might get cramped. And then I havent even tried to calculate 32mm or monstrous infantry.


I have the feeling with the increase of base size the new sculpts will take advantage of that and grow up in scale too, meaning we will be having the same problem all over again but just with an overall scale creep.
I for one think that big regiments games would look a lot better at 15mms or true old old 28mm but GW wants to charge £25 per character and add huge monsters and minis.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519486.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519486.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 NAVARRO wrote:

I have the feeling with the increase of base size the new sculpts will take advantage of that and grow up in scale too, meaning we will be having the same problem all over again but just with an overall scale creep.
I for one think that big regiments games would look a lot better at 15mms or true old old 28mm but GW wants to charge £25 per character and add huge monsters and minis.


Reason they invoke in the article is that bigger bases mean bigger space for poses, so that they're not all cramped / monopose like the dilemna with "new" dark elves at the time of old Battle. See how they had to design witch aelves as a good example. If they were on 25mm instead of 20 mm square bases, it would have been easier for some dynamic poses.

There may be a difference in proportions, since new miniatures from GW tend to be less "cartoony" than before, but I don't see why not to believe them here when they say it's to give more freedom to sculptors / miniature designers in the future. Just see what Mantic Games does with KoW new miniatures : either they're clearly not designed for their bases or they are "cramped" when you try not to go multi-base. And Mantic Games did change the base as well in their new version for monsters - "titans", because they did make them bigger than before and a 50mm base that was the "old" Battle size was definitely too small for their new miniature scale. So they upped it to 75mm.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519506.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519506.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Those bretonnians are a perfect example, they look fantastic when done up by the GW team for the article. But they are not the super detailed plastic designed many will have grown accustom to having in the modern era. Contrast paints are likely to look awful on all those flat surfaces. Lots of details will need to be painted on by hand (No fancy pre-scultped banners or heraldry) and sculpted details can be soft, not ideal for thick coats of paint or for taking washes.

Not to mention all this for kits brought back at modern pricing.

Personally I don't mind the older kits (Though I dread the mould line removal on some of them) and have spent a small fortune over the last three years amassing a ton of stuff I was missing from my collection (Even if it had a modern equivalent). I find the older models a lot quicker to paint compared to modern models and I'm perfectly content getting stuff painted to the bare minimum now, even if it took me a long time to loose the worry of perfection. I'm going to love being able to easily buy up kits I'm missing, rather than chasing them across multiple 2nd hand sites.

But I do foresee a lot of mostly-grey 2nd hand armies on the market a year after ToWs release. Wargaming hobbying is hard work at the best of times, even AoS requires a fair bit of commitment and a chore to paint through. But even making bretonnians under one colour scheme and not the colour explosion of the 90s- thats some dedicated painting time to get them looking nice!

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519510.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519510.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 triplegrim wrote:
Luke82 wrote:
 triplegrim wrote:
Is anyone else worried about the larger footprint of units making the movement phase a rank'n flank fiasko?

4 x 15 chaos warriors with frontage of 5 dudes will have a total lenght of 74cm with 32mm bases and an inch between each unit.

It works at 4x6 foot I guess. If they reduce the playing field, its going to get cramped.



Bigger models / bases on smaller tables seems to be the way GW are pushing at the mo so this may be intentional.

As someone who plays 2nd Ed 40k on an 8x4 table the Uber cramped contemporary 40k games I see in the wild look gross, but it’s clearly not an issue for GW or their player base so I’d say this is something Old World players are going to have to lump.

I’ve got blocks of 25mm base models 10 wide and they are already too burdensome to use properly, adding another 2 bases (assuming a 5mm increase per base, or their abouts) and it’s gonna get ugly.


You are on to something. There are 144 square inches in 1 square foot. A 25mm base is one square inch.

A regular army with 5 x 20 infantry, two cannons, some light cav and a monster pretty much is a square foot.

So with two armies at 4x4 feet, some terrain, spacing between units and corners not used, it might get cramped. And then I havent even tried to calculate 32mm or monstrous infantry.


The standard battlefield size for Warhammer Fantasy used to be 6x4 feet, at least for battles of around 2000 points. Are AoS and 40k battlefields typically 4x4? That does make me wonder what kind of battlefield sizes will be the new standard for TOW.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519512.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519512.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
xenofexx wrote:

Are AoS and 40k battlefields typically 4x4?


No, only for small games like 1000 points.

Standard has always been 2000 points for 6x4 for Battle. An upsize of bases won't really change much on such a table, according point costs don't change as well (V8 has made a lot of things cheap and rules giving advantage to bigger units, so that was the main reason there were more miniatures per unit - in older versions, number was lower).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519519.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519519.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! MDF cut and laid over the tables to reduce down to the size stipulated. So it’s seems 6x4 is no longer the standard, though it seems a bit bigger than 4 x 4 as well. Either way, the games look crowded, with whole table edges / deployment zones full of models on big bases. Manoeuvring doesn’t seem to be a consideration.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519528.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519528.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Luke82 wrote:
From what I’ve seen of the tables, they standard (ie what everyone plays) table size has been reduced. Warhammer World mats are smaller (amusingly the old ones are underneath and last time I went we had to move them to play fantasy) and the club I sometimes visit has bits of MDF cut and laid over the tables to reduce down to the size stipulated. So it’s seems 6x4 is no longer the standard, though it seems a bit bigger than 4 x 4 as well. Either way, the games look crowded, with whole table edges / deployment zones full of models on big bases. Manoeuvring doesn’t seem to be a consideration.

40K and AoS now have a 60x44 min size, while the recently released HH still has the 6x4 classic table size.
TOW could end up either way, but if I had to guess it's remaining on 6x4.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519530.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519530.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519531.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519531.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Hellebore wrote:
So with the photos of the Knights in lance formation are we expecting this old concept back or was that just for photography?


Noone knows the first thing about any rules yet, other than it will involve some sort of rank-and-file system with square bases, so it's pretty much 50:50 on that.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519532.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519532.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
The Old World should be a homage to the Old World. Hundreds of models on a 5' X 9' table. A feast for the hard core fan of Warhammer as it used to be.

New models for this game should never be made to look modern. Instead any new models should be made to look straight out of 2005.

If this new version is supposed to be for us ancient Oldhammer players, make it so. Forget the AOS nonsense completely. No ludicrous centerpiece models, no absurd rules combos.

Give us intricate maneuver and games that take an entire afternoon. The less it resembles a modern game the better.

That is my wish list.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519534.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519534.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Tyel wrote:
Its not a deal-breaker, but I'm decidedly un-hyped at the prospect of 15-20 year minis making a come back.

I share the concern that if they are the only way to get a "new army", I'm probably not going to buy them, which means I possibly won't buy anything.

There seem to be people who think differently - and want to get hold of the 6th edition minis they couldn't back then. But I don't think its unreasonable to not be overly interested. If I didn't think the sculpts were that hot in say 2010, I really don't think they'll hold up now.


Then either buy from 3rd party retailer or access a 3D printer. GW isn´t the only source for minis anymore. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519542.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519542.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW to do 15 new plastic armies for this from scratch.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519545.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519545.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 lord_blackfang wrote:
Pretty unreasonable to expect GW to do 15 new plastic armies for this from scratch.


I think it’s pretty unreasonable for GW to expect me to buy 20 year old models that they’ve already seen fit to discontinue once. I’d be surprised if they maintaining the asking prices from 20 years ago too. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519554.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519554.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 ImAGeek wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
Pretty unreasonable to expect GW to do 15 new plastic armies for this from scratch.


I think it’s pretty unreasonable for GW to expect me to buy 20 year old models that they’ve already seen fit to discontinue once. I’d be surprised if they maintaining the asking prices from 20 years ago too.


This whole project came about because WHFB players can't move on. If you don't have an army of 20 year old GW models already you're not the target audience.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519558.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519558.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 ImAGeek wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
Pretty unreasonable to expect GW to do 15 new plastic armies for this from scratch.


I think it’s pretty unreasonable for GW to expect me to buy 20 year old models that they’ve already seen fit to discontinue once. I’d be surprised if they maintaining the asking prices from 20 years ago too.


Is that an expectation in play here? If you have old models, use them. Rebase them (or not if you're not bothering with Official Events). If you want to buy old models you missed, buy them. If you'd rather have new models, buy those when those come around.

The idea that there's an evil scheme to make people buy old models is a bit silly.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519561.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519561.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Voss wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
Pretty unreasonable to expect GW to do 15 new plastic armies for this from scratch.


I think it’s pretty unreasonable for GW to expect me to buy 20 year old models that they’ve already seen fit to discontinue once. I’d be surprised if they maintaining the asking prices from 20 years ago too.


Is that an expectation in play here? If you have old models, use them. Rebase them (or not if you're not bothering with Official Events). If you want to buy old models you missed, buy them. If you'd rather have new models, buy those when those come around.

The idea that there's an evil scheme to make people buy old models is a bit silly.


I’m not sure how I implied there’s some ‘evil scheme’, but they’re obviously expecting people to buy them. Why are we expecting new models to come around? They might do eventually, if the game does well, but I’m not convinced it will do that well if it’s mostly old models. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519567.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519567.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 ImAGeek wrote:
Voss wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
Pretty unreasonable to expect GW to do 15 new plastic armies for this from scratch.


I think it’s pretty unreasonable for GW to expect me to buy 20 year old models that they’ve already seen fit to discontinue once. I’d be surprised if they maintaining the asking prices from 20 years ago too.


Is that an expectation in play here? If you have old models, use them. Rebase them (or not if you're not bothering with Official Events). If you want to buy old models you missed, buy them. If you'd rather have new models, buy those when those come around.

The idea that there's an evil scheme to make people buy old models is a bit silly.


I’m not sure how I implied there’s some ‘evil scheme’, but they’re obviously expecting people to buy them.

Sure, when a company puts things up for sale, they want and hope customers will buy them. That isn't at all an expectation or onus on the customer.

Why are we expecting new models to come around? They might do eventually, if the game does well, but I’m not convinced it will do that well if it’s mostly old models.

We're expecting new models because... they've officially announced new models? And have shown previews of rendered bits for Brets and TK?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519569.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519569.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Voss wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
Voss wrote:
 ImAGeek wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
Pretty unreasonable to expect GW to do 15 new plastic armies for this from scratch.


I think it’s pretty unreasonable for GW to expect me to buy 20 year old models that they’ve already seen fit to discontinue once. I’d be surprised if they maintaining the asking prices from 20 years ago too.


Is that an expectation in play here? If you have old models, use them. Rebase them (or not if you're not bothering with Official Events). If you want to buy old models you missed, buy them. If you'd rather have new models, buy those when those come around.

The idea that there's an evil scheme to make people buy old models is a bit silly.


I’m not sure how I implied there’s some ‘evil scheme’, but they’re obviously expecting people to buy them.

Sure, when a company puts things up for sale, they want and hope customers will buy them. That isn't at all an onus on the customer.

Why are we expecting new models to come around? They might do eventually, if the game does well, but I’m not convinced it will do that well if it’s mostly old models.

We're expecting new models because... they've officially announced new models? And have shown previews of renders for Brets and TK?


Yeah, to be released alongside old models. I don’t want a mishmash army of 20 year old models and nice new models, and seeing as they’re releasing the old models alongside a few new ones, it’s gonna be a while before they get redone to the same standard, if at all. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519570.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519570.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519571.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519571.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519572.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519572.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! AoS aesthetic. In reality, that's all ToW will likely amount to. Lord knows the ruleset will be dreadful since that's a GW standard, and I'd be *amazed* if it got any lasting attention beyond the initial launch, just like Aeronautica and Titanicus before it.
As a replacement for WHFB, it's all too little, too late. The whole project has felt like a sad, desperate attempt to claw back RnF players who have long since moved on to better games or back to older versions of WHFB that don't require any more overpriced rulebooks.
It is quite depressing to see the 'old models bad because old' mentality still prevalent, though. Quite frankly I wouldn't want my regimented troops to be flailing about in "dramatic" poses all over the place or giant ridiculous centrepieces dominating every game, and anyone who thinks the majority of the old Bretonnian line was bad needs their eyes tested.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519581.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519581.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW pricing for this..?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519588.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519588.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 streetsamurai wrote:
Disagree. Them bringing back these old kits make me thinks that the game will have really low support. After all, they wouldnt bring back these kits if they intend to replace them in a few years. And we know that they have some new kits for Brettonia, so it seems like most armies will be a mix of new kits and really old ones. Which is another one of my pet peeves.

I can understand why some people are still interested in the game, but for me, its a deal breaker


That's fair. Everyone has their break point.

It seems like the implied scale creep is going to be my break point. But I'll certainly take advantage of the old kits while they're available. It actually makes my idea of an "Empire of Bretonnia" army viable.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519589.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519589.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 ImAGeek wrote:
I’m just not optimistic they will get redone. I don’t think the game will do that well if it’s mostly old models. A lot of it will depend on how they decide to price it, most likely. Which doesn’t help the optimism. It feels like this way is setting it up to fail. Maybe there’s more nostalgia there than I’m thinking, though.


They will release old kits to have 10+ factions from the getgo, and probably to milk the nostalgia wallets before selling new kits with 2-4 releases each year. That way, nobody can truly complain about the new stuff being inferior or not good enough.

I drool at the chance to buy a 2k bretonnia army from the original lineup. But who knows how singular I am....]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519591.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519591.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! If they update Rat Ogres, I'll be even happier.
Will the rules be good enough for me to worry about rebasing, or will I stick with 6th edition is the question on my mind, though.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519592.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519592.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
So you're happy to pay modern GW pricing for this..?


I wouldn't be happy paying modern GW pricing for anything (and thankfully I don't), but as a model? That one is great.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519593.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519593.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
So you're happy to pay modern GW pricing for this..?


Havent really bought from GW for the past decade. But I fiddle around on their old website with waybackmachine once in a while. The pricing in 2002-2006 was insane. (Though armies were smaller).

I'll pay for the bretonnia set. Yes.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519594.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519594.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519595.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519595.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Nostalgia is one hell of an expensive drug.


Pray tell, what is it exactly that's wrong with the Knight model you showed? Not enough minute sculpted detail swamping it? No swirling smoke/fire/random magical BS sculpted on? Not 'dramatically' posed enough? Those after all are all the hallmarks of modern GW model design.
It isn't nostalgia to prefer a more understated, grounded sculpting style - the same style that defined WHFB for most of its life.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519596.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519596.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
It’s just as easy to accuse every AoS player as being a mindless devotee to the Cult of the New, consuming what ever tripe GW spill out. Fun, too.

Bret models look great, and as others have said, GW prices are what they are, and no sculpt justifies their prices.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519598.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519598.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519599.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519599.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 streetsamurai wrote:
You really think that people wont be upset if they spend hundreds if not thousands on kits, and spend multiple hours gluing, painting and basing them, only to see them replaced by much much better looking ones a few months later?


Given the new kits always come with a pretty hefty price increase, I generally prefer older stuff myself. And then when new kits come out, people dump their old stuff on E-Bay...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519600.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519600.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW prices for "old" kits*


You guys do realise that probably a good half or more of AOS currently on sale kits are "old kits" right?

Also there's a MASSIVE number of old metal ranges of models still on sale in various scales. Heck Reaper have a huge backlog of metal and resin and bones sculpts that are all pretty old.

Heck Tyranids are getting a facelift and a good chunk of their models, like Gaunts, are from 3rd edition.



You can argue all you want, but yeah people do and are spending money on older kits even if new tech, new sculpting styles and methods are around. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519603.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519603.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519605.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519605.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
You know, i was looking through the site last night and the amount of old kits aren't nearly as prevelant as you think. The only armies that genuinely are are Beastmen, Ogres and Skaven as they haven't had a range refresh yet. The others that aren't unique don't contain that much old stuff either anymore.


Daughters of Khaine still have witchaelves and the cauldron; Flesheaters are all old models; death cart and necromancer are old; Dwarves, Dark Elves, bits of high and wood elf are all still pre AoS models. Slaanesh still has their old seeker riders, deamonettes, chariots and all. Khorne still have their skullthrower and demons and such.

There have been lots of updates ,but there's still plenty of old things kicking around that look fine.


Plus don't forget whilst you're all focused on the Knight, there were plenty of fairly new kits retired in the big change-over. Tombkings had some pretty modern kits (and honestly a good many that would look perfectly fine in AoS)


My points is the age of a kit isn't always important. If it looks good and people like it and want it then it will sell. Heck I've bought several old metal models (mostly leader types) just because I like the sculpt. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519608.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519608.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! AoS would be surprised that Nagash was a Warhammer Fantasy model, though for End Times.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519609.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519609.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Overread wrote:
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
You know, i was looking through the site last night and the amount of old kits aren't nearly as prevelant as you think. The only armies that genuinely are are Beastmen, Ogres and Skaven as they haven't had a range refresh yet. The others that aren't unique don't contain that much old stuff either anymore.


Daughters of Khaine still have witchaelves and the cauldron; Flesheaters are all old models; death cart and necromancer are old; Dwarves, Dark Elves, bits of high and wood elf are all still pre AoS models. Slaanesh still has their old seeker riders, deamonettes, chariots and all. Khorne still have their skullthrower and demons and such.

There have been lots of updates ,but there's still plenty of old things kicking around that look fine.


Plus don't forget whilst you're all focused on the Knight, there were plenty of fairly new kits retired in the big change-over. Tombkings had some pretty modern kits (and honestly a good many that would look perfectly fine in AoS)


My points is the age of a kit isn't always important. If it looks good and people like it and want it then it will sell. Heck I've bought several old metal models (mostly leader types) just because I like the sculpt.


Yeah, but it's nowhere over 50% of the entire range. Not anywhere close to it anymore.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519612.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519612.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! Also, back then the models were not sculpted mainly to look cool as high resolution close ups photos on the internet. They did fine just looking ok on the tabletop, preferably togheter with dozens tightly packed models in formation, painted more or less uniform.
Lots of people miss the simple, not fly-jumping models not covered in swirly gak.

Well, personally I actually like the modern dynamic sculpting too, but honestly, they often lack real personality and charm, IMO. I hope we can have both styles.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519630.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519630.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! 40k and fantasy), some of my favorite painted armies to see on the tabletop were Brets. I went to the last games day here in the US back in 2013 and there was someone there playing in a tournament with a Bret army and I just marveled at every single piece in that persons army. The level of detail even on the old mini’s was absolutely incredible. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519643.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519643.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 nathan2004 wrote:
I realize I might be in the minority here but in the time I’ve been playing warhammer (40k and fantasy), some of my favorite painted armies to see on the tabletop were Brets. I went to the last games day here in the US back in 2013 and there was someone there playing in a tournament with a Bret army and I just marveled at every single piece in that persons army. The level of detail even on the old mini’s was absolutely incredible.


I've kind of been wanting a full mounted knight army for a while. AoS still holds cavalry back I feel by making them both smaller units at present and also not really giving them any stand out rules or operation outside of just being bigger infantry on lager bases.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519645.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519645.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
But for me at least some of this stuff is just bad. Compare say the 2002 High Elf spearmen, archer and Silver Helm sculpts to the newer (2020?) Lumineth stuff. I think they are just much better models. Will they rank up as well (especially the spearmen)? I don't know - but with bigger bases maybe.

Now did High Elves need a "good" Keeper of Secrets? Or "Malletmasters"? Or Kangaroo Cav? No I don't think so - and that's why people I think AoS is silly. But it doesn't change the above.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519652.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519652.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Tyel wrote:

But for me at least some of this stuff is just bad. Compare say the 2002 High Elf spearmen, archer and Silver Helm sculpts to the newer (2020?) Lumineth stuff. I think they are just much better models. Will they rank up as well (especially the spearmen)? I don't know - but with bigger bases maybe.


The lumineth are awful designs. There are some improvements over the high elf sculpts, in particular hand sizes, but the weird patches of scale armour, bows with multiple strings and silly hats are not great choices.

I don't mind the kangaroos.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519670.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519670.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW prices on certain old kits. Tomb King, even the older (and uglier, imo) models, sell for incredible amounts on Ebay. Same for a lot of heroes, lords, and named characters.

I'm hoping that they just return to a steady MTO system for characters that wouldn't exist during the Old World setting (Azhag, Thorgrim, Kurt Helborg, etc) since I'm not sure they're as likely to return ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519672.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519672.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
The Black Adder wrote:
Tyel wrote:

But for me at least some of this stuff is just bad. Compare say the 2002 High Elf spearmen, archer and Silver Helm sculpts to the newer (2020?) Lumineth stuff. I think they are just much better models. Will they rank up as well (especially the spearmen)? I don't know - but with bigger bases maybe.


The lumineth are awful designs. There are some improvements over the high elf sculpts, in particular hand sizes, but the weird patches of scale armour, bows with multiple strings and silly hats are not great choices.

I don't mind the kangaroos.


I don't like the Lumineth myself, but their designs are straight outta 80s/90s high fantasy and sci-fantasy comics, stuff like what Moebius etc. drew. It's a style that's beloved by many.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519674.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519674.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Souleater wrote:
Are units such as Melusai likely to get rules in TOW?


Personally - with absolutely nothing to back it up - I doubt it. But it would be awesome if they did. I'd love to see Warlock Bombardiers get rules too.

And the opposite! I would totally dig Bretonnians and Tomb Kings rules for AoS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BlackoCatto wrote:
Also, I will say, I'm fine with them releasing the knights again. They are damn good looking for their time, and still do relatively today. They were good kit.

Agreed. The Empire Knights too. I have really missed a number of "standard" fantasy kits like Knights, Men-at-Arms, Orc Boyz, Goblins, Empire and Dwarf artillery, and most of the High Elf range.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519678.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519678.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519683.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519683.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
compared to the Perry Knights which are already old too, no real reason to buy the GW ones as they don't have anything unique compared to those]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519687.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519687.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 kodos wrote:
Empire Knights already looked outdated in the old days with the new light Cavalry kits

compared to the Perry Knights which are already old too, no real reason to buy the GW ones as they don't have anything unique compared to those


What about the ones RIDING DEMIGRYPHS!?! Surely not a sign that GW was desperately searching for an excuse for new models.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519749.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519749.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 kodos wrote:
Empire Knights already looked outdated in the old days with the new light Cavalry kits

compared to the Perry Knights which are already old too, no real reason to buy the GW ones as they don't have anything unique compared to those


Of course there is a reason to buy them. It's just that you don't have it.

Completing your army with the same models so that it stays coherent is one of them.

Besides, there are Mantic Games fans of their outdated elves and still seek to buy them at this price. It's simply because they like them. That's why there are people who are happy to see the same bretonnian line coming back to life.


Obviously, that is assuming GW doesn't propose new miniature sculpts for sale instead.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519873.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519873.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519961.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519961.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW on the box because they like them more than the identical designed models from a different company that costs 2€ per model has better quality

given that people argue that Warhammer needed to die because of the low sales, coming back with the same stuff that did not sell just for those people that still want them, expect the price to be much higher than current AoS stuff simple because GW needs to make money with low amount of expected sales

of course I can be wrong, but taking the last Made to Order and CC model prices, expecting the old Warhammer models to be cheaper than ebay is naive

talking about the old metal stuff is a different story and there would be many more buying them because those were also the designs that sold well during the time Warhammer was still alive

Sarouan wrote:
Obviously, that is assuming GW doesn't propose new miniature sculpts for sale instead.
because this is what GW said, that they bring the old stuff back and not new sculpts of old designs]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519965.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519965.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
JimmyWolf87 wrote:
I'm all for the old kits coming back into production in some manner, even if I will be disappointed at the inevitability (and near confirmation) of it being the 6th Ed. versions for Bretonnians (not that I could realistically expect otherwise). Give me a MtO run of the older 5th Ed. metals and I'd be far more excited.


I think semi-professional recasting have taken much of that old metal marked already, and I believe GW knows it. Any return has to be the plastic 6th kits.

I see prices on Ebay being lower than they should be, also for originals because a part of the nostalgia marked can get their fix from recasting. It also seeps into the regular retro-marked when people who dont know they are buying recasts make their purchases, happy to get grail knights or dogs of war for what seems like a fairly decent price.

6th also seems to be a sweet spot as far as numbers of new players still around willing to pay for it. It launched in 2000, coincided with the rise of the internet era globalization of the game and the popularization of geekdom and fantasy when HP and Lotr became big hits. Anyone who entered during 6th era as teens are about 20 years older now, so 35-45 cirka, which means they have loads of money to spend, and are far more numerous than older grognards.

Same phenomenom is observable with the romantication of 3rd edition 40k.

I think we can bear a rebasing, and perhaps even dare dream of a relaunch of the Mordheim game in some version or another? Tuomas Pirinen and a few others were actually posting a photograph of themselves working at a table for a single project for GW last year. Could just be as consultants for The Old World, or it could mean more. I hope the latter. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519968.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519968.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 kodos wrote:
I am sure there will be people paying 20€ or more for a single 20 year old plastic model because there is GW on the box because they like them more than the identical designed models from a different company that costs 2€ per model has better quality

given that people argue that Warhammer needed to die because of the low sales, coming back with the same stuff that did not sell just for those people that still want them, expect the price to be much higher than current AoS stuff simple because GW needs to make money with low amount of expected sales

of course I can be wrong, but taking the last Made to Order and CC model prices, expecting the old Warhammer models to be cheaper than ebay is naive

talking about the old metal stuff is a different story and there would be many more buying them because those were also the designs that sold well during the time Warhammer was still alive

Sarouan wrote:
Obviously, that is assuming GW doesn't propose new miniature sculpts for sale instead.
because this is what GW said, that they bring the old stuff back and not new sculpts of old designs


eBay probably isn't the best point of comparison (even if it's the most obvious for the market in old miniatures) just because of the pretty wild variation in what sellers seem to think something is worth. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519983.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519983.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
(I'm not always a fan of heroic proportions, but given that the problem areas are often things like hand size and torso length, and those are easy to fit with spare bits from victrix/WGA/and others, a little bit of hobbying for the torsos, I'm pretty happy.

And of course INTENSELY curious about what it will mead for lizardmen models.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519985.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519985.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 kodos wrote:
I am sure there will be people paying 20€ or more for a single 20 year old plastic model because there is GW on the box because they like them more than the identical designed models from a different company that costs 2€ per model has better quality

given that people argue that Warhammer needed to die because of the low sales, coming back with the same stuff that did not sell just for those people that still want them, expect the price to be much higher than current AoS stuff simple because GW needs to make money with low amount of expected sales

of course I can be wrong, but taking the last Made to Order and CC model prices, expecting the old Warhammer models to be cheaper than ebay is naive

talking about the old metal stuff is a different story and there would be many more buying them because those were also the designs that sold well during the time Warhammer was still alive

Sarouan wrote:
Obviously, that is assuming GW doesn't propose new miniature sculpts for sale instead.
because this is what GW said, that they bring the old stuff back and not new sculpts of old designs


WHFB had low sales/failed because it was difficult and expensive to get into, in part because of the large amount of models it generally required, and because it just didn't really get any significant attention from GW. Bringing the game back only to make the exact same mistakes that got it replaced in the first place would just be absurd. Even more so would pricing the kits at more than AoS stuff when that still uses quite a few of the WHFB kits anyway.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519990.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11519990.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
There was near nothing to buy for a large time, and when there was, it was already over.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520001.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520001.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Overread wrote:
*watches people arguing over if they'd pay current GW prices for "old" kits*


You guys do realise that probably a good half or more of AOS currently on sale kits are "old kits" right?

Also there's a MASSIVE number of old metal ranges of models still on sale in various scales. Heck Reaper have a huge backlog of metal and resin and bones sculpts that are all pretty old.

Heck Tyranids are getting a facelift and a good chunk of their models, like Gaunts, are from 3rd edition.



You can argue all you want, but yeah people do and are spending money on older kits even if new tech, new sculpting styles and methods are around.


Please, give me a link to where GW is selling the last generation of Bretonnian kits. Those are the main ones I'm interested in.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520063.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520063.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Vulcan wrote:
 Overread wrote:
*watches people arguing over if they'd pay current GW prices for "old" kits*


You guys do realise that probably a good half or more of AOS currently on sale kits are "old kits" right?

Also there's a MASSIVE number of old metal ranges of models still on sale in various scales. Heck Reaper have a huge backlog of metal and resin and bones sculpts that are all pretty old.

Heck Tyranids are getting a facelift and a good chunk of their models, like Gaunts, are from 3rd edition.



You can argue all you want, but yeah people do and are spending money on older kits even if new tech, new sculpting styles and methods are around.


Please, give me a link to where GW is selling the last generation of Bretonnian kits. Those are the main ones I'm interested in.


Nowhere. Yet. They're pretty much confirmed to be coming in some capacity though. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520067.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520067.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520078.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520078.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 The Phazer wrote:
Screw new models, sell me old ones. I want metal Diaz Deamonettes and seekers on general release.


GW prices would actually be cheaper than ebay prices for them! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520093.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520093.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! HH and doesn't have it's own one like Sigmar or 40k....Is that to reinforce that Sigmar and OW can coexist like 40k and HH or is it because they aren't previewing a lot I wonder?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520117.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520117.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520122.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520122.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 nathan2004 wrote:
So the Old World preview is being paired with HH and doesn't have it's own one like Sigmar or 40k....Is that to reinforce that Sigmar and OW can coexist like 40k and HH or is it because they aren't previewing a lot I wonder?


It's probably because TOW and HH both fall under the domain of Forgeworld at least partially.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520123.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520123.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 nathan2004 wrote:
So the Old World preview is being paired with HH and doesn't have it's own one like Sigmar or 40k....Is that to reinforce that Sigmar and OW can coexist like 40k and HH or is it because they aren't previewing a lot I wonder?


Probably because both HH and OW are under the specialist games division. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520143.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520143.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 nathan2004 wrote:
So the Old World preview is being paired with HH and doesn't have it's own one like Sigmar or 40k....Is that to reinforce that Sigmar and OW can coexist like 40k and HH or is it because they aren't previewing a lot I wonder?


I would have thought the latter, especially given the focus will be 40k 10th for a few months. I'm a bit surprised they're announcing other games stuff at all.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520148.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520148.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Overread wrote:

GW prices would actually be cheaper than ebay prices for them!


It's sad because it's true.


As for the Old World preview on Warhammer Fest...I'm honestly not expecting much. I doubt it will be released this year and thus means it would be too soon for GW to make a "big reveal".

But if we can have more details about the rules they do intend to use, it'll always be nice.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520151.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520151.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! 40K new edition elements. That's the next big release this summer and will dominate major news and reveal events for a while

So yeah pair HH and Old World up because OW is likely only getting a smaller bit of news again. They aren't speeding up for a big release.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520161.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520161.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Carlovonsexron wrote:
I'm glad for everybody getting to use their old models! But I feel like I can't be the only person excited because they are going to keep the same scale on future ones!

(I'm not always a fan of heroic proportions, but given that the problem areas are often things like hand size and torso length, and those are easy to fit with spare bits from victrix/WGA/and others, a little bit of hobbying for the torsos, I'm pretty happy.

And of course INTENSELY curious about what it will mead for lizardmen models.


It feels like we should have the quote from the article here for posterity:

GW wrote:Q: Are the models getting bigger?

A: No, the new models will be in the same scale as the returning range from Warhammer Fantasy Battle. The base size change has come about because some of those ‘90s and ‘00s models became difficult to rank up, and we’re taking the opportunity to fix the problem. It will mean that newer models joining the range can be more dynamically posed, but proportions remain the same.


Because with regard to this I don't trust GW at all. Same scale, same proportions is a high bar.

It also involves making new Tomb Kings models deliberately sucky, which I can just about believe but definitely don't want to see.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520188.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520188.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW says that AoS and 40k is still 28mm scale, so none of those models got officially bigger

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520194.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520194.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520198.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520198.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Stop with the off topic digs of other companies. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520202.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520202.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Spoiler:

The Old World: World of Horses.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520206.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520206.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520210.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520210.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Same scale, same proportions? See the new Tyranid Termigants for how it can be done.


A generally slimmer, taller gaunt with a smaller head maintains the same proportions as the old chubby gaunt? Yes, that's the kind of definition of "same" I expect the GW marketing team to use.

Termagant picture in spoilers for reference:

Spoiler:


Make no mistake, that is exactly the kind of "same" I want to see and that will get me to spend money. But come on. If you're actually into the old style of models from twenty years ago, there's a really good chance you're getting your hopes up over nothing. You just can't trust the marketing monkeys on this one.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520236.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520236.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520242.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520242.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Overread wrote:
I would not expect much. Warhammer Fest will be dominated by the 40K new edition elements. That's the next big release this summer and will dominate major news and reveal events for a while

So yeah pair HH and Old World up because OW is likely only getting a smaller bit of news again. They aren't speeding up for a big release.



I feel there is a chance they feel obligated to make a 2023 release for Old World because of the 40th anniversary thing. I think we might get a late 2023 release date with starter sets that will sell out immediately and some more releases in 2024.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520254.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520254.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! 40K dominated and GW are not crazy enough to try launching two mainline games at the same time. That said a main line edition is the kind of thing that dominates a good 1/4 to 1/2 of the year after the edition lands.

I'd expect trickle Tyranid and Marine models for at least 1/4 after the big release in the Summer; followed up with more in the 4th quarter as we enter the last part of the year. So anything Old World would have to be the latter part of the year.



Maybe they'll use the 40 years to announce it in full and then make it the 41st year the big year of release itself]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520278.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520278.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Same scale, same proportions? See the new Tyranid Termigants for how it can be done.


Or even the transition from the monkey-sculpt skaven to Isle of Blood-era skaven. Poor night runners still haven't made that jump.

There's a lot of range for improvement hiding inside 'not changing the scale']]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520281.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520281.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 The Phazer wrote:
 nathan2004 wrote:
So the Old World preview is being paired with HH and doesn't have it's own one like Sigmar or 40k....Is that to reinforce that Sigmar and OW can coexist like 40k and HH or is it because they aren't previewing a lot I wonder?


I would have thought the latter, especially given the focus will be 40k 10th for a few months. I'm a bit surprised they're announcing other games stuff at all.


Eh fest is therr big event of a year, chance for them to wow and show things up and it's back after covid induced scaledowns.

This is the event for big reveals. If not here then never.

So yeah i wasn't surprised to see multiple games. Just remains to be seen what but about half an hour means some decent previews.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520421.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520421.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! AoS new kits will be retroactively compative with TOW. Yes, mainly the newest Lizardmen and Chaos Warriors.

INB4 calling me out for being high on dreamium despite asking out of genuine curiosity.

I also wonder if they showing TOW at Fest will mean that they will have demo booths available. The layout seems to look like there will be enough space:
Spoiler:


streetsamurai 807983 11519291 wrote:

It does make sense if you actually read what i posted. I dont expect them to release all 12 armies (if not more) day one. But them releasing old kits alongside new ones (they showed renders of new brettonians) pretty muc proves that at least some armies will be a mishmash of decades old kits and new kits (and GW being GW, i shudder just thinking at the price theyll put on these old garbage) . As i said, if its acceptable to some people, cool for them, but that doesn't interest me, especially since theres a few alternative games that have full armies that are all pretty new.



Because GW is a company? Why do think they keep releasing factions with a dropper approach instead of lauching full refreshes and ranges all at once? Obviously they can, but they don't want to.

GW is not your friend, kind reminder.

tneva82 wrote:
dwarves etc

kenofyork wrote:
and dwarves

Ignispacium wrote:
Chaos Dwarves


*Dwarfs. This is going straight to The Book of Grudges.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520471.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520471.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!


For more detailed pictures here is a link:

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/A9mXJq

The staff of the Liche priest is really familiar to the one that is featured in last months Weapons of War article ( https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/03/13/old-world-development-diary-revealing-the-weapons-of-war/ )


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520490.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520490.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 nathan2004 wrote:
So the Old World preview is being paired with HH and doesn't have it's own one like Sigmar or 40k....Is that to reinforce that Sigmar and OW can coexist like 40k and HH or is it because they aren't previewing a lot I wonder?


Old world is to aos, what 30k is to 40k. A historical game set in the flagship games past. It's also going to be A specialist game, and probably supported very similar to how 30k is.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520518.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520518.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 jaredb wrote:
 nathan2004 wrote:
So the Old World preview is being paired with HH and doesn't have it's own one like Sigmar or 40k....Is that to reinforce that Sigmar and OW can coexist like 40k and HH or is it because they aren't previewing a lot I wonder?


Old world is to aos, what 30k is to 40k. A historical game set in the flagship games past. It's also going to be A specialist game, and probably supported very similar to how 30k is.


I doubt that.

Old World is confirmed to be drawing on existing kits, as well as receiving new ones.

That’s far, far more toys and goodies available for release straight out of the gate.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520519.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520519.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! HH.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520520.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520520.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Gert wrote:
Sure but in terms of new kits and books, it'll be similar to HH.


Money talks. I wouldnt be suprised, if TOW would be good source of income for GW, that they pull a Blood Bowl style make over, when they wanted to make everything in resin expect the Starter set, and then they ported all the teams to plastic on the succes of it. Altought I dont know how succesfull is Horus Heresy 2.0, but it I now that it is mostly about marines get the plastic treatment, so you got limitation there but TOW is about tottaly differrent factions, that will recieve either old either new plastic models. I am monitoring a few different forums, some that are WHFB, some that are AoS exclusive and they most of the post welcome the Old World and even the old minis. So possibility for GW to make money on this is there. And we know where the money is there is the support.

I can only talk about myself and I know that I going to buy a lot of Knight of the Realm, Men-at-Arms, Peasant Bowmen, Pegasus Knight boxes and even Questing and Grail Knights ( if they are the old models, I cant talk about new one, because I havent seen them ) and this is just Bretonnia. If they re-release the old plastic Tomb Guard, Necrosphinx, Necropolis Knights, Empire Free Company Militia, Dwarf Miners, the last Dwarf Warrior and Thunderer kit then I am going to go need another mortage.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520528.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520528.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! gw's sale expectation is no shield for being terminated]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520533.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520533.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
tneva82 wrote:
Or not. Exceeding gw's sale expectation is no shield for being terminated


Except we never know how much of what is selling, let alone compared to GW’s expectations.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520534.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520534.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Or not. Exceeding gw's sale expectation is no shield for being terminated


Except we never know how much of what is selling, let alone compared to GW’s expectations.


We know from horse's mouth epic armageddon exceeded expectations by 400%. Or you think guy in charge of department responsible for it doesn't know

Game, set, match.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520535.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520535.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
tneva82 wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Or not. Exceeding gw's sale expectation is no shield for being terminated


Except we never know how much of what is selling, let alone compared to GW’s expectations.


We know from horse's mouth epic armageddon exceeded expectations by 400%. Or you think guy in charge of department responsible for it doesn't know

Game, set, match.


Was this figure always the case during Epics life cycle?

In this neither does AoS or Horus Heresy has fix place in the shelves. 40k is different beast. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520539.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520539.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 herjan1987 wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Or not. Exceeding gw's sale expectation is no shield for being terminated


Except we never know how much of what is selling, let alone compared to GW’s expectations.


We know from horse's mouth epic armageddon exceeded expectations by 400%. Or you think guy in charge of department responsible for it doesn't know

Game, set, match.


Was this figure always the case during Epics life cycle?

In this neither does AoS or Horus Heresy has fix place in the shelves. 40k is different beast.


That was during the era when 'Specialist Games' were banished to their own outlet, including their own magazine(s) and website, with 'mainstream' GW less and less acknowledging that they even existed. I'd wager that the 400% figure comes more from the expectations being extremely low rather than from a success that could be called amazing in absolute numbers.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520540.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520540.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Tsagualsa wrote:
 herjan1987 wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Or not. Exceeding gw's sale expectation is no shield for being terminated


Except we never know how much of what is selling, let alone compared to GW’s expectations.


We know from horse's mouth epic armageddon exceeded expectations by 400%. Or you think guy in charge of department responsible for it doesn't know

Game, set, match.


Was this figure always the case during Epics life cycle?

In this neither does AoS or Horus Heresy has fix place in the shelves. 40k is different beast.


That was during the era when 'Specialist Games' were banished to their own outlet, including their own magazine(s) and website, with 'mainstream' GW less and less acknowledging that they even existed. I'd wager that the 400% figure comes more from the expectations being extremely low rather than from a success that could be called amazing in absolute numbers.


I relatively new commer here( since 2016-2017 ) , that why I am asking, but I did little search and this was in 2013 during the Kirby era. I read more then fare share about that Kirby wasnt the guy, who was maintaining the company as well as he should have (putting half amount of models for double the price is always brought up here ). So I am just making assumptions, what the new ways of Games Workshop is showing to me. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520549.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520549.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
JimmyWolf87 wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:
 Overread wrote:
*watches people arguing over if they'd pay current GW prices for "old" kits*


You guys do realise that probably a good half or more of AOS currently on sale kits are "old kits" right?

Also there's a MASSIVE number of old metal ranges of models still on sale in various scales. Heck Reaper have a huge backlog of metal and resin and bones sculpts that are all pretty old.

Heck Tyranids are getting a facelift and a good chunk of their models, like Gaunts, are from 3rd edition.



You can argue all you want, but yeah people do and are spending money on older kits even if new tech, new sculpting styles and methods are around.


Please, give me a link to where GW is selling the last generation of Bretonnian kits. Those are the main ones I'm interested in.


Nowhere. Yet. They're pretty much confirmed to be coming in some capacity though.


So they're clearly NOT among the 'good half or more AOS currently on sale' then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 The Phazer wrote:
Screw new models, sell me old ones. I want metal Diaz Deamonettes and seekers on general release.


Now THAT would really be something!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520755.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520755.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 herjan1987 wrote:
Tsagualsa wrote:
 herjan1987 wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Or not. Exceeding gw's sale expectation is no shield for being terminated


Except we never know how much of what is selling, let alone compared to GW’s expectations.


We know from horse's mouth epic armageddon exceeded expectations by 400%. Or you think guy in charge of department responsible for it doesn't know

Game, set, match.


Was this figure always the case during Epics life cycle?

In this neither does AoS or Horus Heresy has fix place in the shelves. 40k is different beast.


That was during the era when 'Specialist Games' were banished to their own outlet, including their own magazine(s) and website, with 'mainstream' GW less and less acknowledging that they even existed. I'd wager that the 400% figure comes more from the expectations being extremely low rather than from a success that could be called amazing in absolute numbers.


I relatively new commer here( since 2016-2017 ) , that why I am asking, but I did little search and this was in 2013 during the Kirby era. I read more then fare share about that Kirby wasnt the guy, who was maintaining the company as well as he should have (putting half amount of models for double the price is always brought up here ). So I am just making assumptions, what the new ways of Games Workshop is showing to me.


There's a good two-parter article that explains a lot of what went wrong with Specialist Games in that era, it's a bit long but well worth the reading:

https://www.goonhammer.com/what-happened-to-gorkamorka-part-one-gorkers-and-morkers/
https://www.goonhammer.com/what-happened-to-gorkamorka-part-two-the-hulk/

It explains much of it by the example of the short-lived game Gorkamorka, but other games get mentioned as well and the underlying issues are relevant across the board.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520764.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520764.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 herjan1987 wrote:
Money talks. I wouldnt be suprised, if TOW would be good source of income for GW, that they pull a Blood Bowl style make over, when they wanted to make everything in resin expect the Starter set, and then they ported all the teams to plastic on the succes of it. Altought I dont know how succesfull is Horus Heresy 2.0, but it I now that it is mostly about marines get the plastic treatment, so you got limitation there but TOW is about tottaly differrent factions, that will recieve either old either new plastic models. I am monitoring a few different forums, some that are WHFB, some that are AoS exclusive and they most of the post welcome the Old World and even the old minis. So possibility for GW to make money on this is there. And we know where the money is there is the support.

I meant it more in the sense that GW will release a block of stuff and some books then people will say the game is dead and then the cycle will repeat.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520781.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520781.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! WHFB does it?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520880.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520880.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 herjan1987 wrote:
Little off track, but still staying on the topic of TOW, someone on the internet was smart and has funded the possible new Tomb King Liche priest tabletop model concept in Warhammer: Chaosbanes Tomb King Dlc



For more detailed pictures here is a link:

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/A9mXJq

The staff of the Liche priest is really familiar to the one that is featured in last months Weapons of War article ( https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/03/13/old-world-development-diary-revealing-the-weapons-of-war/ )




It's only vaguely similar in that they both use design elements that are common to the Tomb Kings, pretty much everything about it is different from that other staff. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520893.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520893.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 herjan1987 wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Or not. Exceeding gw's sale expectation is no shield for being terminated


Except we never know how much of what is selling, let alone compared to GW’s expectations.


We know from horse's mouth epic armageddon exceeded expectations by 400%. Or you think guy in charge of department responsible for it doesn't know

Game, set, match.


Was this figure always the case during Epics life cycle?

In this neither does AoS or Horus Heresy has fix place in the shelves. 40k is different beast.


When I worked for GW UK I was told by a senior manager Epic did 5m pounds in it's first year but dropped to 1m pounds in it's second year, and that was why it stopped being supported.

(Goddamn Australian keyboard not having the right currency sign lol)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520988.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11520988.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/19/40-years-of-warhammer-the-orc-shaman-who-conjured-a-classic-new-look-for-greenskins-everywhere/

Definitely building hype for Old World at least to me. And trying to convey that the 2 separate communities (AoS and OW) can coexist.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11521307.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11521307.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 nathan2004 wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/19/40-years-of-warhammer-the-orc-shaman-who-conjured-a-classic-new-look-for-greenskins-everywhere/

Definitely building hype for Old World at least to me. And trying to convey that the 2 separate communities (AoS and OW) can coexist.


In my book this Orc shaman, Gorbad Ironclaw and the new Azagh, the slaughterer models are the pinacles of the Warhammer Fantasys orc models.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11521354.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11521354.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 nathan2004 wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/19/40-years-of-warhammer-the-orc-shaman-who-conjured-a-classic-new-look-for-greenskins-everywhere/

Definitely building hype for Old World at least to me. And trying to convey that the 2 separate communities (AoS and OW) can coexist.


Brian Nelson could sculpt anything into a stunning miniature. Man was unstoppable.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11521476.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11521476.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 herjan1987 wrote:
 nathan2004 wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/19/40-years-of-warhammer-the-orc-shaman-who-conjured-a-classic-new-look-for-greenskins-everywhere/

Definitely building hype for Old World at least to me. And trying to convey that the 2 separate communities (AoS and OW) can coexist.


In my book this Orc shaman, Gorbad Ironclaw and the new Azagh, the slaughterer models are the pinacles of the Warhammer Fantasys orc models.


Coincidentally, all models I would buy if GW ever re-released them at decent prices (and if all three happen to be in metal) ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11521496.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11521496.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11521512.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11521512.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Nice models win out]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11521519.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11521519.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 GaroRobe wrote:
 herjan1987 wrote:
 nathan2004 wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/19/40-years-of-warhammer-the-orc-shaman-who-conjured-a-classic-new-look-for-greenskins-everywhere/

Definitely building hype for Old World at least to me. And trying to convey that the 2 separate communities (AoS and OW) can coexist.


In my book this Orc shaman, Gorbad Ironclaw and the new Azagh, the slaughterer models are the pinacles of the Warhammer Fantasys orc models.


Coincidentally, all models I would buy if GW ever re-released them at decent prices (and if all three happen to be in metal)


The shaman and Azagh had finecast models, not sure about Gorbad thou.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11521538.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11521538.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Hellebore wrote:
THe new saurus look really nice, so whether they are re-releasing the old saurus for ToW or not, I imagine a lot of people are just going to get the new ones and use them.

Nice models win out


I think that's what's going to happen, but I've always been a big fan of the older metal saurus models that were around just before the plastic kits changed their design so much. A blister of those was technically my first warhammer purchase, years and years before i would really know what warhammer even really was.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11521548.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11521548.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 herjan1987 wrote:
 GaroRobe wrote:
 herjan1987 wrote:
 nathan2004 wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/19/40-years-of-warhammer-the-orc-shaman-who-conjured-a-classic-new-look-for-greenskins-everywhere/

Definitely building hype for Old World at least to me. And trying to convey that the 2 separate communities (AoS and OW) can coexist.


In my book this Orc shaman, Gorbad Ironclaw and the new Azagh, the slaughterer models are the pinacles of the Warhammer Fantasys orc models.


Coincidentally, all models I would buy if GW ever re-released them at decent prices (and if all three happen to be in metal)


The shaman and Azagh had finecast models, not sure about Gorbad thou.


I thought they started doing MTO with what the models were originally cast in. So some models that were made for finecast are out of luck, but the older models may be okay. I’m not positive but I think that’s how they were doing things ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11521658.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11521658.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 herjan1987 wrote:
 GaroRobe wrote:
 herjan1987 wrote:
 nathan2004 wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/19/40-years-of-warhammer-the-orc-shaman-who-conjured-a-classic-new-look-for-greenskins-everywhere/

Definitely building hype for Old World at least to me. And trying to convey that the 2 separate communities (AoS and OW) can coexist.


In my book this Orc shaman, Gorbad Ironclaw and the new Azagh, the slaughterer models are the pinacles of the Warhammer Fantasys orc models.


Coincidentally, all models I would buy if GW ever re-released them at decent prices (and if all three happen to be in metal)


The shaman and Azagh had finecast models, not sure about Gorbad thou.


I believe Gorbad did have a finecast release, just not for too long.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11521664.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11521664.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 GaroRobe wrote:
 herjan1987 wrote:
 GaroRobe wrote:
 herjan1987 wrote:
 nathan2004 wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/19/40-years-of-warhammer-the-orc-shaman-who-conjured-a-classic-new-look-for-greenskins-everywhere/

Definitely building hype for Old World at least to me. And trying to convey that the 2 separate communities (AoS and OW) can coexist.


In my book this Orc shaman, Gorbad Ironclaw and the new Azagh, the slaughterer models are the pinacles of the Warhammer Fantasys orc models.


Coincidentally, all models I would buy if GW ever re-released them at decent prices (and if all three happen to be in metal)


The shaman and Azagh had finecast models, not sure about Gorbad thou.


I thought they started doing MTO with what the models were originally cast in. So some models that were made for finecast are out of luck, but the older models may be okay. I’m not positive but I think that’s how they were doing things


They say "material they were last cast in", but several MTO models were delivered in metal despite having a newer Finecast release.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11521699.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11521699.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Scottywan82 wrote:
 nathan2004 wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/19/40-years-of-warhammer-the-orc-shaman-who-conjured-a-classic-new-look-for-greenskins-everywhere/

Definitely building hype for Old World at least to me. And trying to convey that the 2 separate communities (AoS and OW) can coexist.


Brian Nelson could sculpt anything into a stunning miniature. Man was unstoppable.


He still is, he sculpted the AoS Megaboss.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11521706.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11521706.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! OP (especially VC and Slaanesh daemons). I want my snotlings, night goblins, Stone Trolls, and Black Orcs back. The old sculpts are fine. The newer AoS Orruks are lovely but don’t make me want to play the game. The Gloomspite Gitz are better but I haven’t been drawn in by them either. I want Dwarfs and Greenskins going at it hammer and tongs in massed battle without a round base in sight.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11522087.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11522087.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 JB wrote:
I am looking forward to TOW. I loved Warhammer since it started when models had to be ordered by mail using info from ads in White Dwarf. 6th Edition was my favorite even though it had some flaws and Fear/Terror based armies were OP (especially VC and Slaanesh daemons). I want my snotlings, night goblins, Stone Trolls, and Black Orcs back. The old sculpts are fine. The newer AoS Orruks are lovely but don’t make me want to play the game. The Gloomspite Gitz are better but I haven’t been drawn in by them either. I want Dwarfs and Greenskins going at it hammer and tongs in massed battle without a round base in sight.



The guy who runs classichammer.com lives in North Carolina and also plays 6th. Just saying, in case the wait for TOW is too long...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11522100.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11522100.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11522319.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11522319.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
For example, we have some amazing new warriors of chaos. Unless they have some stormcast eternal or other AOS faction trophies attached to them, they'd fit right into WF. However, since they're on round bases, they have wider poses and I'm not sure there's a square base size thats bigger than 25mm that would accommodate them. So would they just re-release the older kit specifically for fantasy? Or make even more chaos warriors

Same with seraphon, and some of the soulblight. The direwolves and skeletons presumably make work on square bases, but the vampire lords are all massive.

That sort of ties back in the issues with scale creep, since they said WHF models will be in the same scale that they used to be in. Large WoC and Seraphon work, but I don't think everything would be compatible. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11522323.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11522323.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 GaroRobe wrote:
Out of curiosity, have they mentioned anything about models sculpted for age of sigmar, but that originiated from warhammer fantasy?

For example, we have some amazing new warriors of chaos. Unless they have some stormcast eternal or other AOS faction trophies attached to them, they'd fit right into WF. However, since they're on round bases, they have wider poses and I'm not sure there's a square base size thats bigger than 25mm that would accommodate them. So would they just re-release the older kit specifically for fantasy? Or make even more chaos warriors

Same with seraphon, and some of the soulblight. The direwolves and skeletons presumably make work on square bases, but the vampire lords are all massive.

That sort of ties back in the issues with scale creep, since they said WHF models will be in the same scale that they used to be in. Large WoC and Seraphon work, but I don't think everything would be compatible.


GW has not addressed this point specifically, but they have stated that alongside the mass change of 20mm -> 25mm that many units will have increased base sizes, including Warriors of Chaos infantry going to 30mm I believe. And larger cavalry base sizes for many models. So this doesn't 100% confirm but does support that the new AoS model ranges for classic WHFB factions will at least be compatible if not directly supported in the Old World. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11522337.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11522337.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
http://natfka.blogspot.com/2023/04/old-world-rumors-battle-for-skull-pass.html?m=1]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523357.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523357.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 herjan1987 wrote:
On Feait212 there is a roumor, that Battle for the Skull Pass and Island of Blood, will get reprint.

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2023/04/old-world-rumors-battle-for-skull-pass.html?m=1


Yeah, but it's a rumour on faeit.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523358.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523358.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! or the endless youtube videos with clickbait titles]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523383.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523383.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 kodos wrote:
which is the same as a rumour on reddit or facebook
or the endless youtube videos with clickbait titles


Not really - Faeit has, at this point, a history of years and years of posting any old thing and being more often wrong than right, with long stretches of time where absolutely nothing they post has any relation to reality. There are other rumourmongers with proven track records of getting things right down to small details, even if they often present their stuff in grating and self-aggrandizing ways.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523387.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523387.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
the difference is always the source of the rumour, which fait usually does not share, which is similar to a throwaway on reddit or unknown people on facebook]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523393.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523393.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 kodos wrote:
which is the same as a rumour on reddit or facebook
or the endless youtube videos with clickbait titles


Not really. There's difference to rumour source with proven track record of high accuracy and site that copies anything from everywhere and if quiet on copy front come up with bogus ones to raise ad profits.


Ducy?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523408.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523408.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523409.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523409.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 herjan1987 wrote:
On Feait212 there is a roumor, that Battle for the Skull Pass and Island of Blood, will get reprint.

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2023/04/old-world-rumors-battle-for-skull-pass.html?m=1

PLEASE can this be true. I want both of these and they cost a ridiculous amount on eBay.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523412.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523412.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! AoS, and some 40k starters were MTO as well. The dwarfs would be small but the night goblin half would be great for gloomspite players and skaven players would love the IoB contents so both would sell very well ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523413.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523413.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 GaroRobe wrote:
They already did island of blood once for AoS, and some 40k starters were MTO as well. The dwarfs would be small but the night goblin half would be great for gloomspite players and skaven players would love the IoB contents so both would sell very well


I know and I regret missing out on them then. Both are excellent sets and I am very excited for the return of Dwarf artillery.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523416.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523416.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! Even if I never even try to play a game of "The old World" I would buy loads of high elevs if they sell them.
Out of nostalgia!

I mean, Dat griffon lord! One of the best models GW ever produced.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523425.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523425.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
I don't see why there's so much contention. It's a pretty obvious and easy thing for them to shove back into production for some easy money.


They would be nice...but problem is rumour source is about worst possible in trustworthyness.

Unless there's rumour from more reliable source then I believe it when I see it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523429.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523429.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Fayric wrote:
I would totally get a third and, maybe a fourth IoB box!
Even if I never even try to play a game of "The old World" I would buy loads of high elevs if they sell them.
Out of nostalgia!

I mean, Dat griffon lord! One of the best models GW ever produced.


Yeah, I'd consider a couple more IoB HE sets too if they became available. I don't have much use for the wizard, but the rest are great!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523440.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523440.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! 40k, so something more modern than that seems plausible. What it would cost though is another matter.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523441.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523441.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Dawnbringer wrote:
What it would cost though is another matter.


Seeing the prices on the MTO Steel legion models, it would cost an arm and a leg. Oh and one of your kidneys.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523453.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523453.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
The rules would hypothetically have to support smaller unit and armies sizes to make it work to that extent.
The boxes would still be good bases for building an army, regardless, if the price is right.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523456.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523456.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 GaroRobe wrote:
Out of curiosity, have they mentioned anything about models sculpted for age of sigmar, but that originiated from warhammer fantasy?

For example, we have some amazing new warriors of chaos. Unless they have some stormcast eternal or other AOS faction trophies attached to them, they'd fit right into WF. However, since they're on round bases, they have wider poses and I'm not sure there's a square base size thats bigger than 25mm that would accommodate them. So would they just re-release the older kit specifically for fantasy? Or make even more chaos warriors

Same with seraphon, and some of the soulblight. The direwolves and skeletons presumably make work on square bases, but the vampire lords are all massive.

That sort of ties back in the issues with scale creep, since they said WHF models will be in the same scale that they used to be in. Large WoC and Seraphon work, but I don't think everything would be compatible.
Looking back one can see the scale creep mostly happened during WHFB itself; AoS creep has been almost exclusively on non-human models (consider KO or LRL, who wouldn't be getting back-dated into TOW anyways). What people do is take the Underworlds minis, which are larger in scale across the board, and compare those heroes to some foot mook from 6th edition and go 'sCAle CrEpP!' When the reality is more like this:



Though as you mentioned and as we can see with the sword n board marauder, pose is/will absolutely be an issue. In that regard I agree with the main sentiment of your post here.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523458.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523458.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Ignispacium wrote:
This makes some sense. If the rules allow, that's four functional armies right out of the gate.

The rules would hypothetically have to support smaller unit and armies sizes to make it work to that extent.
The boxes would still be good bases for building an army, regardless, if the price is right.

Does anyone know if the sprues were separated by army or jumbled in? Could make a handy series of 'Combat Patrol' style boxes if they were separate.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523459.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523459.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Dawnbringer wrote:
Ignispacium wrote:
This makes some sense. If the rules allow, that's four functional armies right out of the gate.

The rules would hypothetically have to support smaller unit and armies sizes to make it work to that extent.
The boxes would still be good bases for building an army, regardless, if the price is right.

Does anyone know if the sprues were separated by army or jumbled in? Could make a handy series of 'Combat Patrol' style boxes if they were separate.


They were separate I believe. I split both the skulle pass and IoB with a friend. So most likely they were separated. As someone else said that 4 armies right out the gate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote:
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
I don't see why there's so much contention. It's a pretty obvious and easy thing for them to shove back into production for some easy money.


They would be nice...but problem is rumour source is about worst possible in trustworthyness.

Unless there's rumour from more reliable source then I believe it when I see it.


Faeit pimped the base size rumors first, and was right. So theres that...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 kodos wrote:
which is the same as a rumour on reddit or facebook
or the endless youtube videos with clickbait titles


Dude got base sized right recently. Also the rumor is not a far stretch. Could even be that they are split into batallion boxes.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523461.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523461.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Dawnbringer wrote:
Ignispacium wrote:
This makes some sense. If the rules allow, that's four functional armies right out of the gate.

The rules would hypothetically have to support smaller unit and armies sizes to make it work to that extent.
The boxes would still be good bases for building an army, regardless, if the price is right.

Does anyone know if the sprues were separated by army or jumbled in? Could make a handy series of 'Combat Patrol' style boxes if they were separate.


IoB has 4 sprues

Sprue 1 is Seaguard, Swordmasters, Clanrats and a Reaver
Sprue 2 is HE Mage, 1 Rat Ogre, Mortar, Master Moulder, Warpfire Thrower, Clanrats inc command
Sprue 3 is Reavers, Swordmasters, Seaguard command, Warlock Engineer and 1 Rat Ogre
Sprue 4 is the HE Prince on Griffon and Skaven Warlord

No way to split those into separate armies

Skull pass

Sprue 1, Spiders and mix of Goblin Command and Heroes
Sprue 2 Shootas and Stabbas
Sprue 3 Dwarf Miners, Thunderers, Warriors, Cannon crew, Pony and Heroes
Sprue 4 Spider riders, Dwarf cannon, Troll and Terrain

Bit easier to split but still share a sprue.

Most of my Gitz army is BFSP, the single piece gitz are just better than the mutlipart ones especially the Shootas. I'd buy another set of them if available again.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523475.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523475.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! OW without having to sell your first born.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523480.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523480.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 nathan2004 wrote:
I'm surprised at Skull Pass, IoB makes a lot of sense given it's popularity, previous reprint, and the fact that High Elves are out of print now. If the price is right, it might be a way to jump into OW without having to sell your first born.


I remember, that after the first succesfull wave of Island of Blood/Spire of Dawn box was pulled from stores, people where crazy for Battle for Skull Pass box on Games Workshops Facebook page.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523546.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523546.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523558.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523558.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!

That whole box was pretty cool, models were nice for both armies.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523603.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523603.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Breotan wrote:
RAT-THINGS


It's... beautiful!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523623.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523623.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! CAD

unless the software means they would have to redo it all]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523631.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523631.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 DaveC wrote:
the single piece gitz are just better than the mutlipart ones especially the Shootas. I'd buy another set of them if available again.

This! I would love for those shootas to be available again. So much better looking than the current multipart ones.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523640.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523640.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW will end up redoing Chaos Dwarves ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523737.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523737.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 legionaires wrote:
I'm guessing this is were GW will end up redoing Chaos Dwarves

That would be great, but I do still hope they appear as a proper force in AoS. Honestly, any of TOW armies that can get AoS rules would be most welcome.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523877.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523877.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! AoS too.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523967.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523967.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW has ever produced.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523975.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523975.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Granted there were other factors at the time which resulted in less resources to Old World; but even when they did their big End-Times event; we still didn't see the Island of Blood models get individual moulds and releases.



So on the one hand it was great to get so much in one set and it was the backbone, for a time, of High Elf and Skaven forces. Very popular, great set.
But on the other it also held those forces back getting those models in general circulation and on their own. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523983.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11523983.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524011.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524011.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
DaveC wrote:
 Dawnbringer wrote:
Ignispacium wrote:
This makes some sense. If the rules allow, that's four functional armies right out of the gate.

The rules would hypothetically have to support smaller unit and armies sizes to make it work to that extent.
The boxes would still be good bases for building an army, regardless, if the price is right.

Does anyone know if the sprues were separated by army or jumbled in? Could make a handy series of 'Combat Patrol' style boxes if they were separate.


IoB has 4 sprues

Sprue 1 is Seaguard, Swordmasters, Clanrats and a Reaver
Sprue 2 is HE Mage, 1 Rat Ogre, Mortar, Master Moulder, Warpfire Thrower, Clanrats inc command
Sprue 3 is Reavers, Swordmasters, Seaguard command, Warlock Engineer and 1 Rat Ogre
Sprue 4 is the HE Prince on Griffon and Skaven Warlord

No way to split those into separate armies


ISTR, that the sprues were double lobe? Even though it was "one sprue" it was in two halves that were easy enough for the customer to separate if they only wanted one army. However, my #1 favorite WFB army is Skaven and #2 is High Elf, so I kept both parts.

Breotan wrote:Back in the day, I bought seven sets of IoB Skaven. It was the cheapest way to build out my endless horde of rats.


Seven! That's insane. I bought one IoB and one Skaven battalion box and I thought that was a lot. I'll probably buy another IoB if they do re-release it, but I really have no interest in Skull Pass. I really like most of the Skaven that are currently for sale. The ones I don't like are the Warlock Engineers & Plague Monks/Priests/Censer Bearers. The Doomwheel, Screaming Bell, and Warp Lightning Cannon still look pretty darn good IMO.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524048.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524048.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! you needed to clip stuff out to share it, which was seen as the biggest downside of that box

and yes, it was a big problem that the other units never get an update, so the core box ones were the best ones available for Skaven and High Elves and Skaven still are

and the Skaven Infantry was released on its own, as those are the current available Clan Rats, but this was already an AoS release]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524055.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524055.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! They could do worse than release those two sets. Might be tempted for the Skull Pass stuff not so much for the dwarfs but fo the goblins.. might be able to tempt my other half into playing...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524063.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524063.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!


This project is just getting bigger and bigger, if its true.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524097.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524097.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Just Tony wrote:
My issue is that it takes a HUGE number of purchases of that set to get multiple 20 man Swordmaster units. Eltharion's rules in 6th eliminated the 0-1 which was carried over to the later army books, and there wasn't a good way to get multiple units.


Ebay was awash with all of the units from Island Of Blood, for very good prices.

So yeah, there was a cheap, easy way to get plenty of Swordmaster units. I remember them being way cheaper than an equivalent unit that you would buy from GW (less than half price IIRC), which made up for the lack of options.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524098.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524098.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!


This project is just getting bigger and bigger, if its true.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524100.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524100.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524106.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524106.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! CA team have been working, to an extent, in tangent with GW. Obviously how much of that translates over to the tabletop is questionable but it's at least demonstrative that there's an appetite for the faction in general. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524109.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524109.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! FW chorfs is due to that rather than TOW]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524110.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524110.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Alpharius wrote:
Chaos Dwarves would be incredibly awesome to have here and would also be the only thing that would get me interested again in AoS too.

Same. My old signature line for years was I would play WHFB when GW brings back Charlie Dwarves.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524121.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524121.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Maybe he just meant their involvement in the setting itself? Chaos Dwarves are barely even a part of AoS, aren't they? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524126.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524126.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I doubt Warhammer World store staff get informed about upcoming products that are potentially months away from even being announced let alone released, really.

Maybe he just meant their involvement in the setting itself? Chaos Dwarves are barely even a part of AoS, aren't they?


GW have been teasing the arrival of Chaos Dwarves pretty hard in 3rd edition. They be a playable army sooner rather than later.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524129.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524129.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! AoS than in fantasy for years. Horns of Hashut being a specific vanguard unit being created for Warcry and constantly being teased on the edge of appearing in full force.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524142.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524142.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! lol. Glory to HASHUT!!!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524145.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524145.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
CD have probably had a harder push in AoS than in fantasy for years. Horns of Hashut being a specific vanguard unit being created for Warcry and constantly being teased on the edge of appearing in full force.

There is still the question of why anyone in the Studio thought it was a good idea to have a warband whose name references Hashut not involve any actual Chaos Dwarfs, though.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524150.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524150.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524157.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524157.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Hope they keep the top hats for at least one unit, like the flashyness of the greatswords.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524162.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524162.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 triplegrim wrote:
Chaos dwarfs strikes me as another skaven type faction, with so many options it is almost an alliance of its own. You can build it many ways Slave hordes, magic heavy, artillery, cavalry, big boy units like siege giants etc.

Hope they keep the top hats for at least one unit, like the flashyness of the greatswords.


Well they could to what CA did with the Chaos Dwarfs. Give the core untis big hats and give the Azgorh style to more elite units. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524165.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524165.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! AoS "armies" and a good many are just 1 Old World faction fragmented and then steadily added too.

Heck Death Grand Alliance is basically all the old Vampire models just split into themes. Ghouls in one; ghosts expanded in another; vampires in a core. Even Ossiarchs have a few Vampire models. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524167.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524167.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524168.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524168.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
-The army was really bad with just a handfull of options, and so they had to copensate with overpowered magic and monsters.

-The models looked horrible, even by those days standard. Lazy and silly sculpting.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524193.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524193.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Fayric wrote:
Its really amazing how people can be nostalgic about chaos dwarfs in an old world thread.

-The army was really bad with just a handfull of options, and so they had to copensate with overpowered magic and monsters.

-The models looked horrible, even by those days standard. Lazy and silly sculpting.


That's true, but the army was also the most difficult to collect after 5th edition and thus had their players and collectors highly invested in their collection - especially before internet use was widespread, some rare models had an almost mythical quality to them, with some people even doubting that they were real... ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524194.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524194.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
My issue is that it takes a HUGE number of purchases of that set to get multiple 20 man Swordmaster units. Eltharion's rules in 6th eliminated the 0-1 which was carried over to the later army books, and there wasn't a good way to get multiple units.


Ebay was awash with all of the units from Island Of Blood, for very good prices.

So yeah, there was a cheap, easy way to get plenty of Swordmaster units. I remember them being way cheaper than an equivalent unit that you would buy from GW (less than half price IIRC), which made up for the lack of options.


You and I have drastically different concepts for "very good prices"...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524195.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524195.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Just Tony wrote:
 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
My issue is that it takes a HUGE number of purchases of that set to get multiple 20 man Swordmaster units. Eltharion's rules in 6th eliminated the 0-1 which was carried over to the later army books, and there wasn't a good way to get multiple units.


Ebay was awash with all of the units from Island Of Blood, for very good prices.

So yeah, there was a cheap, easy way to get plenty of Swordmaster units. I remember them being way cheaper than an equivalent unit that you would buy from GW (less than half price IIRC), which made up for the lack of options.


You and I have drastically different concepts for "very good prices"...


Depend when you were looking really. There was a golden time when it was pretty good prices on it. Today the prices are likely stupidly high since everything went out of production]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524223.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524223.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Just Tony wrote:
 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
My issue is that it takes a HUGE number of purchases of that set to get multiple 20 man Swordmaster units. Eltharion's rules in 6th eliminated the 0-1 which was carried over to the later army books, and there wasn't a good way to get multiple units.


Ebay was awash with all of the units from Island Of Blood, for very good prices.

So yeah, there was a cheap, easy way to get plenty of Swordmaster units. I remember them being way cheaper than an equivalent unit that you would buy from GW (less than half price IIRC), which made up for the lack of options.


You and I have drastically different concepts for "very good prices"...


I see £8 -£10 for a unit of Swordmasters (that was the price while IOB was in print), new on sprues, as a very good price. If you don't, then that's on you, not me.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524227.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524227.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Overread wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
My issue is that it takes a HUGE number of purchases of that set to get multiple 20 man Swordmaster units. Eltharion's rules in 6th eliminated the 0-1 which was carried over to the later army books, and there wasn't a good way to get multiple units.


Ebay was awash with all of the units from Island Of Blood, for very good prices.

So yeah, there was a cheap, easy way to get plenty of Swordmaster units. I remember them being way cheaper than an equivalent unit that you would buy from GW (less than half price IIRC), which made up for the lack of options.


You and I have drastically different concepts for "very good prices"...


Depend when you were looking really. There was a golden time when it was pretty good prices on it. Today the prices are likely stupidly high since everything went out of production


Looking back through my CC spending logs - I got the entire set, new in box for $67.50 (USD) in 2014. Can you imagine ever getting a box that cheap with that many minis from GW? I recently did a search on Ebay to try to find the 6(!) Space Marines from the getting started set because I thought it would be fun to just paint a few Space Marines, I couldn't find any listings that were significantly cheaper than just buying the whole set from MM or someone. Good Ebay deals even on current stuff seems to be a thing of the past. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524387.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524387.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Why I would pay 60£ for something I can get for 60£ from GW and get MORE stuff as well? That's what some ebay sellers think people do.

Then again...There's always guillible ones.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524396.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524396.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
tneva82 wrote:
Yeah ebay prices are just nuts.

Why I would pay 60£ for something I can get for 60£ from GW and get MORE stuff as well? That's what some ebay sellers think people do.

Then again...There's always guillible ones.


There's probably an edge case involving currency exchange rates for at least some people considering that GW usually finds their conversion rates in the dross of an opium pipe ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524399.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524399.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! UK) people trying to sell on ebay are wanting more money for their items while conversely you as the buyer are wanting to buy for less.

Also, I don't remember it ever being 8-10 quid for a unit of Swordmasters, it was maybe 7 quid for a blister pack of 3. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524401.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524401.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Olthannon wrote:
Don't forget as well with current absurd inflation and misery (certainly here in the UK) people trying to sell on ebay are wanting more money for their items while conversely you as the buyer are wanting to buy for less.

Also, I don't remember it ever being 8-10 quid for a unit of Swordmasters, it was maybe 7 quid for a blister pack of 3.


I was talking about prices on ebay, back when it was flooded with people re-selling the contents of the currently in production Island Of Blood.

Obviously the prices are very different now.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524403.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524403.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! Time to get back on topic now.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524480.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524480.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! WHFB and old FW ones.

I prefer the FW infantry (if not their price!), as the silly hats were gone. But, I found their artillery, with the application of modern hindsight, too AoS to pass for WHFB. They just stood out too much. Like someone was using (pretty!) proxy models.

The original WHFB artillery definitely shows its age, as the models were pretty plain.

Hence a mashup.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524485.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524485.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 herjan1987 wrote:
 triplegrim wrote:
Chaos dwarfs strikes me as another skaven type faction, with so many options it is almost an alliance of its own. You can build it many ways Slave hordes, magic heavy, artillery, cavalry, big boy units like siege giants etc.

Hope they keep the top hats for at least one unit, like the flashyness of the greatswords.


Well they could to what CA did with the Chaos Dwarfs. Give the core untis big hats and give the Azgorh style to more elite units.

I hope that what they do. I just wonder if there is too many taboo topics in the Hobogoblins and Greenskin units in today's world.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524556.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524556.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Hopefully new Chaos Dwarfs will, stylistically, borrow from the old WHFB and old FW ones.

We don't have any information about when or even if these will be redone. Last time, they were a Forge World resin release.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524619.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524619.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! 40k release beyond the monthly updates.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524630.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524630.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524647.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524647.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524649.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524649.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
I'm just glad the project looks like it's nearing completion for release.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524672.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524672.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524686.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524686.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Cataphract wrote:
I really hope the Empire factions have a core of “The Same” units but then very faction specific ones. I want some Knights of Manann templar knights for the Marienburg faction all decked out in sea iconography.


Would not hold my breath, though some iconography to pick from in the box sprue might be possible.

Pretty sure there will be a cult of ulrik army and a cult of sigmar army, wolfy wolf and skully skulls respectively.

With the arty school at nuln we are probably looking at shooty empire faction, infantry faction of empire and religious or something faction of empire.

Then probably some heroes for each faction of the civil war, which granted will be more interesting than everyone being servants of Karl Franz. Hoping for some real antiheroes though here and there.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524749.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524749.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
I mean, Warmaster is cool, so it's not a problem either way, but I'm just wondering ^^]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524757.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524757.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524759.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11524759.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11525545.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11525545.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11525562.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11525562.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Eiríkr wrote:
Really hoping tomorrow is something decent, otherwise this Warhammer Fest has been a bit of a wet squib for my liking...


I am hoping for some Brets, even a single knight or peasant infantry would be cool.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11525572.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11525572.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Eiríkr wrote:
Really hoping tomorrow is something decent, otherwise this Warhammer Fest has been a bit of a wet squib for my liking...



Huh. Its been exactly what I expected so far- the 40k launch box and season boxes for Underworlds and Warcry. Not sure what else they would've shown. LotR is a little disappointing with a just a tiny diorama, but its not really my game.

Tomorrow has the question mark on it. Particularly old world and HH can potentially be deeply disappointing, or really exciting. AoS is likely just the reveal of the next set of books.
KT monday is probably just the last of the space hulk letdown. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11525576.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11525576.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Voss wrote:
Eiríkr wrote:
Really hoping tomorrow is something decent, otherwise this Warhammer Fest has been a bit of a wet squib for my liking...



Huh. Its been exactly what I expected so far- the 40k launch box and season boxes for Underworlds and Warcry. Not sure what else they would've shown. LotR is a little disappointing with a just a tiny diorama, but its not really my game.

Tomorrow has the question mark on it. Particularly old world and HH can potentially be deeply disappointing, or really exciting. AoS is likely just the reveal of the next set of books.
KT monday is probably just the last of the space hulk letdown.


The whole event seems kind of oddly composed - no specific seminar for Black Library, nothing on Necromunda but that non-preview for LotR... i can only explain it to myself by them being a bit out of the whole 'organizing a huge event' game after just doing stuff online for years.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11525578.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11525578.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Voss wrote:
Eiríkr wrote:
Really hoping tomorrow is something decent, otherwise this Warhammer Fest has been a bit of a wet squib for my liking...



Huh. Its been exactly what I expected so far- the 40k launch box and season boxes for Underworlds and Warcry. Not sure what else they would've shown. LotR is a little disappointing with a just a tiny diorama, but its not really my game.

Tomorrow has the question mark on it. Particularly old world and HH can potentially be deeply disappointing, or really exciting. AoS is likely just the reveal of the next set of books.
KT monday is probably just the last of the space hulk letdown.


I'm not a 40K player, it doesn't interest me at all and the shiny new bits for 10th Edition were expected. Since the split Warcry/Underworld/Middle-Earth slot was supposed to be 90 minutes long (but ended up being a measly 28!), and that's what I checked in for, I was left feeling pretty cold - mostly for the Middle Earth. I am now expecting 3D renders, maybe some artwork or something, for tomorrow's Old World peek.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11525584.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11525584.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Some artwork in the style of black and white 6th edition armybook (looked GREAT imo) and some wishy washy news we already had.

I'm a little letdown. When is this game going to come out, yo?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11525944.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11525944.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! 40K new edition territory.

Right now I'd say we are looking at perhaps end of this year at BEST for Old World and more practically early next year ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11525953.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11525953.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
But yes, that announcement was very lackluster.

~iPaint]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11525955.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11525955.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
All 8th Edition factions will be playable though


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Old World got the biggest cheer and chants of "We want more!"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11525956.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11525956.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Flashman wrote:
Made a point of saying focus will be on supporting factions fighting in the Old World location, so guessing that Naggaroth, Ulthuan and Lustria based forces are not going feature in the release plan, at least not in the beginning.

All 8th Edition factions will be playable though


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Old World got the biggest cheer and chants of "We want more!"


So what armies aren't likely to be part of this much, then? They mentioned it'll be on the ones "fighting in the old world" in this time period, but I have no idea who that means specifically. I'd presume not really Lizardmen/Elves.

Empire, Orcs, Dwarfs, Tomb Kings, Bretonnia, Chaos, at least?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526000.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526000.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/30/warhammer-the-old-world-a-noble-bretonnian-paladin-stands-up-to-a-tomb-king/

 -iPaint- wrote:
Very disappointing announcement for The Old World. Basically the contents of what would come in a weekly WarCom article. Could prove the rumored Brets v Tomb Kings box set true, though, based on the announced first factions.

But yes, that announcement was very lackluster.

~iPaint


It's good enough for me to have confirmation that GW isn't just screwing around and Tomb Kings and Bretonnians are actually the first two factions. I'd like to be able to buy Tomb Kings kits again (good ones anyway) and the sooner that happens, the better.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526004.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526004.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Flashman wrote:


Also, Old World got the biggest cheer and chants of "We want more!"


Interesting, the twitch stream chat was very bitter about it and repeatedly said it should just stay dead... very rude community there overall.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526008.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526008.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Mentlegen324 wrote:

So what armies aren't likely to be part of this much, then? They mentioned it'll be on the ones "fighting in the old world" in this time period, but I have no idea who that means specifically. I'd presume not really Lizardmen/Elves.

Empire, Orcs, Dwarfs, Tomb Kings, Bretonnia, Chaos, at least?


They said every army will be playable, they're just focusing on armies at the time period with regards to new releases.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526012.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526012.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Tsagualsa wrote:
 Flashman wrote:


Also, Old World got the biggest cheer and chants of "We want more!"


Interesting, the twitch stream chat was very bitter about it and repeatedly said it should just stay dead... very rude community there overall.


That's just the usual damage control / antagonism from bad actors. Hardcore AoS fans want to see ToW crash and burn, and the other side wants to see AoS replaced by ToW. Best to not pay attention to these shitters in the first place.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526016.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526016.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Tsagualsa wrote:
 Flashman wrote:


Also, Old World got the biggest cheer and chants of "We want more!"


Interesting, the twitch stream chat was very bitter about it and repeatedly said it should just stay dead... very rude community there overall.


Typical Twitch chat of whiny babies. Lots of crying about resin releases despite it being very clear from the beginning that this was the Fantasy "Horus Heresy".]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526018.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526018.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:

So what armies aren't likely to be part of this much, then? They mentioned it'll be on the ones "fighting in the old world" in this time period, but I have no idea who that means specifically. I'd presume not really Lizardmen/Elves.

Empire, Orcs, Dwarfs, Tomb Kings, Bretonnia, Chaos, at least?


They said every army will be playable, they're just focusing on armies at the time period with regards to new releases.


Yes, they'll all be playable, but there's a big difference between that and actually being involved in this in a proper capacity. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526025.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526025.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526031.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526031.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526036.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526036.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Most of us getting starter set are often looking to trade away half the set anyway. It's really only pure new people buying sets as a pair of friends and such. That's at least GW's "intent" with two army starters.


So no two army starter isn't a bad thing, esp if they perhaps did a single starter set per faction with a rulebook or battletome rolled in - army sets. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526040.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526040.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526043.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526043.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
bringing back old models and mix in some new ones
I guess they showed up the old Bretonnia models in the last article because they are going to stay

cannot wait on GW selling the 30 year old skeleton kit and people praising it as the best one that was ever released by any company and totally wort the 40€ for 10 models /s]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526046.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526046.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526055.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526055.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! The material is another thing... I dont like resin to put it in a polite manner, that said, if the troops remain the old WHFB plastics, I wont complain much. On that topic of troops, I am happy that not just the plastic kits are comming back. There are some metals that I wanted to pick up.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526071.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526071.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Also, is that Paladin a manlet, or is the Tomb King a giant?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526073.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526073.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 DaveC wrote:
No starter set is an odd choice hopefully there will be at least be an army set for each, it kind of suits me anyway as Khemri doesn't interest me but I want to completely redo my Brettonian army now that I've had years more painting practice - but I intend to round base and use movement trays can't go back to squares now. Liking the foot Paladin, resin isn't a problem so long as it's well cast.


I don't know exactly how their shipping & handling procedures work and how their plants are set up, but if TOW has e.g. characters in resin and regiments in plastic for the most part, with added resin stuff for some monsters etc., it might not even be (economically) feasible to package all of that in a starter set at an acceptable price point. Other than doing a 'virtual' set where the purchases are packaged and shipped separately, and you just get a bundle discount, that is.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526074.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526074.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Never had much feeling for TK.

But very lackluster warhammer fest reveal. Give us a date.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526076.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526076.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 DaveC wrote:
No starter set is an odd choice hopefully there will be at least be an army set for each, it kind of suits me anyway as Khemri doesn't interest me but I want to completely redo my Brettonian army now that I've had years more painting practice - but I intend to round base and use movement trays can't go back to squares now. Liking the foot Paladin, resin isn't a problem so long as it's well cast.


I'd guess they couldn't put together 'metrics' on what combination of armies would sell well enough to make a starter set worthwhile.

Not impressed by their approach here. Not just the lack of a starter, but resin characters, an unclear release model, and so forth. They should have left these two models as a teaser, and not done a 'preview' if this muddle is all they had to offer.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526077.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526077.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW decided they don't actually want to do ToW, but since they announced it, they're putting something out. If the mess sticks, they might put some effort into it later.

Not feeling this approach for what should be a major franchise pillar of the company.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526085.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526085.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 kodos wrote:
So they are really doing the worst we expected?

bringing back old models and mix in some new ones
I guess they showed up the old Bretonnia models in the last article because they are going to stay

cannot wait on GW selling the 30 year old skeleton kit and people praising it as the best one that was ever released by any company and totally wort the 40€ for 10 models /s


Honestly? I would buy the old skeleton set (though not for what GW would charge for it). I'm a big softie for nostalgia and I cut my teeth on the Warhammer of the late 90's . Not everything has to be a hyper-detailed CAD model.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526089.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526089.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 His Master's Voice wrote:
No starter set means no cheap core.

Also, is that Paladin a manlet, or is the Tomb King a giant?


Assume the latter. The 8th ed Tomb Kings update saw embiggened Tomb Guard (and characters) to set a standard that pretty much looked like that, a head taller than normal people.

It's quite possible that the Paladin stands taller than old Bretonnians and still looks like a midget.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526092.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526092.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Geifer wrote:
 His Master's Voice wrote:
No starter set means no cheap core.

Also, is that Paladin a manlet, or is the Tomb King a giant?


Assume the latter. The 8th ed Tomb Kings update saw embiggened Tomb Guard (and characters) to set a standard that pretty much looked like that, a head taller than normal people.

It's quite possible that the Paladin stands taller than old Bretonnians and still looks like a midget.


Its also entirely possible that they didn't coordinate a scale and the sculptors didn't talk.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526095.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526095.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! WHFB enthusiasts is a handful of rubbish resin models (that Tomb King is embarassing). Reviving some of the old ranges at least gives some options back to those who had or wanted TK or Bretonnian armies back in the day, but I dread to think how much they'll charge for them now.
So far, an abject failure that shows no sign of life at all.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526099.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526099.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Voss wrote:
 Geifer wrote:
 His Master's Voice wrote:
No starter set means no cheap core.

Also, is that Paladin a manlet, or is the Tomb King a giant?


Assume the latter. The 8th ed Tomb Kings update saw embiggened Tomb Guard (and characters) to set a standard that pretty much looked like that, a head taller than normal people.

It's quite possible that the Paladin stands taller than old Bretonnians and still looks like a midget.


Its also entirely possible that they didn't coordinate a scale and the sculptors didn't talk.


That's a given at GW. I wouldn't even trust the same sculptor to coordinate scale with himself, honestly.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526102.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526102.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Voss wrote:
 DaveC wrote:
No starter set is an odd choice hopefully there will be at least be an army set for each, it kind of suits me anyway as Khemri doesn't interest me but I want to completely redo my Brettonian army now that I've had years more painting practice - but I intend to round base and use movement trays can't go back to squares now. Liking the foot Paladin, resin isn't a problem so long as it's well cast.


I'd guess they couldn't put together 'metrics' on what combination of armies would sell well enough to make a starter set worthwhile.

Not impressed by their approach here. Not just the lack of a starter, but resin characters, an unclear release model, and so forth. They should have left these two models as a teaser, and not done a 'preview' if this muddle is all they had to offer.


My overall impression so far is that they'd fared much better if they had just left out TOW and MESBG, added in a BL seminar, and cut the whole thing by a day. That way, they'd have had a much tighter series of hits on each day instead of this drawn-out and lacklustre affair. Objectively, they're not even showing that little, it's a solid lineup, but because it's spread over three days and has MESBG and TOW as clear duds in between it seems worse than it really is.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526103.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526103.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 MalusCalibur wrote:
More and more I am convinced the ToW is nothing but vaporware that was hurriedly concocted to try and draw people away from Kings of War, without any real substance or intent behind it. No starter set kills any chance it would have at drawing in new players, and all they seem willing to offer WHFB enthusiasts is a handful of rubbish resin models (that Tomb King is embarassing). Reviving some of the old ranges at least gives some options back to those who had or wanted TK or Bretonnian armies back in the day, but I dread to think how much they'll charge for them now.
So far, an abject failure that shows no sign of life at all.


This is my impression as well. Cash in on the people who did not manage to complete their factions back when it all went down the gakker, add a few overpriced FW characters and call it a day. I can't say I'm thrilled with that outlook, but it's better than nothing. TK and Brets will be cheaper than eBay prices, so that's a positive.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526106.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526106.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 kodos wrote:
So they are really doing the worst we expected?

bringing back old models and mix in some new ones
I guess they showed up the old Bretonnia models in the last article because they are going to stay

cannot wait on GW selling the 30 year old skeleton kit and people praising it as the best one that was ever released by any company and totally wort the 40€ for 10 models /s


Well it was that or start with 2 factions to play with and expand slowly.

Guess you would have prefered that? Empire vs chaos(humans) and then rest later?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526107.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526107.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Platuan4th wrote:
Tsagualsa wrote:
 Flashman wrote:


Also, Old World got the biggest cheer and chants of "We want more!"


Interesting, the twitch stream chat was very bitter about it and repeatedly said it should just stay dead... very rude community there overall.


Typical Twitch chat of whiny babies. Lots of crying about resin releases despite it being very clear from the beginning that this was the Fantasy "Horus Heresy".


You've seen the amount of bitching in the HH thread whenever a model/upgrade kit is confirmed as resin, right? Some people really need to grow the feth up.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526113.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526113.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
BertBert wrote:
 MalusCalibur wrote:
More and more I am convinced the ToW is nothing but vaporware that was hurriedly concocted to try and draw people away from Kings of War, without any real substance or intent behind it. No starter set kills any chance it would have at drawing in new players, and all they seem willing to offer WHFB enthusiasts is a handful of rubbish resin models (that Tomb King is embarassing). Reviving some of the old ranges at least gives some options back to those who had or wanted TK or Bretonnian armies back in the day, but I dread to think how much they'll charge for them now.
So far, an abject failure that shows no sign of life at all.


This is my impression as well. Cash in on the people who did not manage to complete their factions back when it all went down the gakker, add a few overpriced FW characters and call it a day. I can't say I'm thrilled with that outlook, but it's better than nothing. TK and Brets will be cheaper than eBay prices, so that's a positive.


It starts to look like some of the conspiracy theories that they're just putting out the minimal viable product to give some of their registered designs and trademarks another decade or two before they're expiring aren't that far off the mark.

tneva82 wrote:
 kodos wrote:
So they are really doing the worst we expected?

bringing back old models and mix in some new ones
I guess they showed up the old Bretonnia models in the last article because they are going to stay

cannot wait on GW selling the 30 year old skeleton kit and people praising it as the best one that was ever released by any company and totally wort the 40€ for 10 models /s


Well it was that or start with 2 factions to play with and expand slowly.

Guess you would have prefered that? Empire vs chaos(humans) and then rest later?


At least Chaos has cross-system uses, including legacy games like e.g. Mordheim that have living communities still, or for things like WHFRP. Both of these can always use more Empire characters as well. Bretonnia is so-so, but Khemri is one of the more outlandish factions and can barely fit in anywhere else. Even Lizardmen have more off-label use right now.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526116.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526116.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Actually I do find it surprising that there's no starter set, though from what I have seen/heard it sounds kind of like GW is launching TOW in 2 phases - phase 1 is core rules and legacy rules/models, phase 2 will come after which is focusing on the time of three emperors narrative. That phase 2 is expected out later, and I bet THAT is when a starter with new plastics will drop. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526119.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526119.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
chaos0xomega wrote:
So far, there hasn't been much said about TOW that I find surprising, it's basically all "I told you so" levels of what I expected.

Actually I do find it surprising that there's no starter set, though from what I have seen/heard it sounds kind of like GW is launching TOW in 2 phases - phase 1 is core rules and legacy rules/models, phase 2 will come after which is focusing on the time of three emperors narrative. That phase 2 is expected out later, and I bet THAT is when a starter with new plastics will drop.


Maybe there's something to the rumours about reprints for Island of Blood and Battle for Skull Pass - these are pure plastic products, so they could crank them out without any S&H problems, and they're very popular boxes from what i gather.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526123.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526123.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526124.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526124.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 His Master's Voice wrote:
Yeah, this kinda smells like GW decided they don't actually want to do ToW, but since they announced it, they're putting something out. If the mess sticks, they might put some effort into it later.

Not feeling this approach for what should be a major franchise pillar of the company.


Yea I'm real squeamish on this. This may end up a garage game and not something that has real consistent attention. If they phone in the rules it's pretty much dead for me.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526126.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526126.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
tneva82 wrote:
Guess you would have prefered that? Empire vs chaos(humans) and then rest later?


That would at least lure new players in with fresh plastic and let everyone who already has an army play along, while waiting for their army to get an update.

I don't see the approach they picked drive new people to the system and the grognards aren't going to keep it alive tomorrow, if they couldn't yesterday.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526127.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526127.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
When I first saw it, I thought he was carrying a lantern in his left hand, then I thought he had three arms. It took me a bit to see through all the stuff tacked on.

And, come on, he is a knight, right? Where is the squire? Why is he a Paladin and torchbearer and pack mule?

That being said, I can dump that terrible backpack whatever it is, give him a shield somewhere, and clean it up into a proper Noble (depending entirely on price, of course).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526130.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526130.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526132.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526132.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 lord_blackfang wrote:
I'm a bit surprised, seems my level of appreciation of TOW stream is a bit higher than the Dakkadakka average once for a change.


It's pretty focused with lots of unspecific "stuff is coming". I can appreciate it because I'm specifically interested in what's going on with Tomb Kings, but I can see how the wider audience didn't get much out of it.

What are the takeaways, really? It'll release at an as of yet unannounced, even unhinted point in time. New stuff isn't all plastic. Whenever it comes out, two niche armies are first. I don't think any of that is very exciting for most people who are looking forward to the old setting coming back.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526135.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526135.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Cruentus wrote:


And, come on, he is a knight, right? Where is the squire? Why is he a Paladin and torchbearer and pack mule?



iirc they mentioned that he's supposed to be a questing knight, which would explain that part. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526136.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526136.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Geifer wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
I'm a bit surprised, seems my level of appreciation of TOW stream is a bit higher than the Dakkadakka average once for a change.


It's pretty focused with lots of unspecific "stuff is coming". I can appreciate it because I'm specifically interested in what's going on with Tomb Kings, but I can see how the wider audience didn't get much out of it.

What are the takeaways, really? It'll release at an as of yet unannounced, even unhinted point in time. New stuff isn't all plastic. Whenever it comes out, two niche armies are first. I don't think any of that is very exciting for most people who are looking forward to the old setting coming back.
+

There are 'Army book equivalents', whatever that means in practice.

I think this one stream in particular would have really, really benefitted from keeping the video going through the Q&A session. Since they did not, it will all come down to hearsay and chinese whispers in the community.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526139.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526139.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Tsagualsa wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
So far, there hasn't been much said about TOW that I find surprising, it's basically all "I told you so" levels of what I expected.

Actually I do find it surprising that there's no starter set, though from what I have seen/heard it sounds kind of like GW is launching TOW in 2 phases - phase 1 is core rules and legacy rules/models, phase 2 will come after which is focusing on the time of three emperors narrative. That phase 2 is expected out later, and I bet THAT is when a starter with new plastics will drop.


Maybe there's something to the rumours about reprints for Island of Blood and Battle for Skull Pass - these are pure plastic products, so they could crank them out without any S&H problems, and they're very popular boxes from what i gather.


I'll do backflips if they reprint Island of Blood at a reasonable price.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526141.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526141.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 BertBert wrote:
Tsagualsa wrote:
 Flashman wrote:


Also, Old World got the biggest cheer and chants of "We want more!"


Interesting, the twitch stream chat was very bitter about it and repeatedly said it should just stay dead... very rude community there overall.


That's just the usual damage control / antagonism from bad actors. Hardcore AoS fans want to see ToW crash and burn, and the other side wants to see AoS replaced by ToW. Best to not pay attention to these shitters in the first place.


*TOW, O is capitlized.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526144.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526144.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Cruentus wrote:
I’m not sold on the Paladin. In resin, I’m going to hope that the sword/pile o junk he is carrying is a separate piece (it almost has to be, right?).

When I first saw it, I thought he was carrying a lantern in his left hand, then I thought he had three arms. It took me a bit to see through all the stuff tacked on.

And, come on, he is a knight, right? Where is the squire? Why is he a Paladin and torchbearer and pack mule?

That being said, I can dump that terrible backpack whatever it is, give him a shield somewhere, and clean it up into a proper Noble (depending entirely on price, of course).


From what I recall, Paladins were grail knights who lived alone in the grail chapels throughout Bretonnia. They had no squires because they lived to serve the Lady rather than being in charge of a barony or dukedom.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526146.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526146.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 His Master's Voice wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Guess you would have prefered that? Empire vs chaos(humans) and then rest later?


That would at least lure new players in with fresh plastic and let everyone who already has an army play along, while waiting for their army to get an update.

I don't see the approach they picked drive new people to the system and the grognards aren't going to keep it alive tomorrow, if they couldn't yesterday.


Yea the two factions that would be playable. Forget daemons, beast, orcs, ogres, elves, dwarves. Nothing for those.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526147.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526147.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Cruentus wrote:
I’m not sold on the Paladin. In resin, I’m going to hope that the sword/pile o junk he is carrying is a separate piece (it almost has to be, right?).

When I first saw it, I thought he was carrying a lantern in his left hand, then I thought he had three arms. It took me a bit to see through all the stuff tacked on.

And, come on, he is a knight, right? Where is the squire? Why is he a Paladin and torchbearer and pack mule?

That being said, I can dump that terrible backpack whatever it is, give him a shield somewhere, and clean it up into a proper Noble (depending entirely on price, of course).


He needs all the equipment to adventure around and get gak done. Compare to bretonnia fukkbois Questing knights who has sworn to never sleep more than one night in a place before moving on om their quest for the holy grail.

Very remnicient of the questing knight package pieces with kitchen items and books.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526150.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526150.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
tneva82 wrote:
 His Master's Voice wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Guess you would have prefered that? Empire vs chaos(humans) and then rest later?


That would at least lure new players in with fresh plastic and let everyone who already has an army play along, while waiting for their army to get an update.

I don't see the approach they picked drive new people to the system and the grognards aren't going to keep it alive tomorrow, if they couldn't yesterday.


Yea the two factions that would be playable. Forget daemons, beast, orcs, ogres, elves, dwarves. Nothing for those.


Wait. You think that by forgoing a starter set, that somehow, magically, everything for everyone is going to be released all at once?

Factions are still going to be released in no particular order, with older ones screwed over by having to wait to be 'playable.']]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526151.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526151.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Geifer wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
I'm a bit surprised, seems my level of appreciation of TOW stream is a bit higher than the Dakkadakka average once for a change.


It's pretty focused with lots of unspecific "stuff is coming". I can appreciate it because I'm specifically interested in what's going on with Tomb Kings, but I can see how the wider audience didn't get much out of it.

What are the takeaways, really? It'll release at an as of yet unannounced, even unhinted point in time. New stuff isn't all plastic. Whenever it comes out, two niche armies are first. I don't think any of that is very exciting for most people who are looking forward to the old setting coming back.


Six seconds in I realized there would only be a single model per faction displayed.

I am predicting a 2025 lacklustre release. Might just as well get with the warhammer armies project or whatever, or I'll be close to 50 before I get some rank and flank games.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526153.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526153.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
A few books here and there, a plastic kit or two every quarter, some resin stuff to pad out the release schedule, but mostly old kits plus a few old metal models brought back via made to order.

Manage your expectations, pay attention to how GW handles their other non-main systems, and you can't be disappointed.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526159.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526159.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! AoS's 40k.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526167.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526167.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 stahly wrote:
I don't know what people's expectations about The Old World were, but it was clear to me from the beginning that the level of model support would be very similar to Lord of the Rings, which is also handled by Forge World now.

A few books here and there, a plastic kit or two every quarter, some resin stuff to pad out the release schedule, but mostly old kits plus a few old metal models brought back via made to order.

Manage your expectations, pay attention to how GW handles their other non-main systems, and you can't be disappointed.


You expect to see models that weren't good in the 1990s sold for 2020s prices, you get confirmation that GW is going to do just that, and you can't be disappointed? Well then.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526168.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526168.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! TK and Bretonnia models in years, hearing they would be resin dampened my excitement, and the rest of the preview was lacklustre. The presenters sounding uninterested (really noticeable during the artwork section), along with the rehashing of what they've already revealed before in community articles, combined with their responses in the Q&A it does seem like they're setting this up to fail a second time....after they've made a boatload of cash from nostalgia first, of course. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526169.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526169.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW handles their secondary systems, it's whether WFB should be a secondary system.

GW thinks it should. I think they're gearing up to squander one of their most valuable properties a second time.

Hope I'm wrong.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526171.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526171.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
tneva82 wrote:

Well it was that or start with 2 factions to play with and expand slowly.
Guess you would have prefered that? Empire vs chaos(humans) and then rest later?

and now we are expanding slowly and have no cheap core to start, or do you think every single faction will get their full range on release (old+new models). It starts with 2 factions that get some new models and will slowly grow without any cheap easy to build models

the one big point here is a different one, GW said that 2 player starter sets are meant for first-timers not for veterans, hence GW thinks that even games like HH or Necromunda are played by people who are totally new to wargaming and not veterans who want a cheap way to start

but for TOW GW thinks no new player is interested, they were not back than and are not now, and it is only there for those old people who might have finally left the GW bubble if TOW is not made


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 stahly wrote:
I don't know what people's expectations about The Old World were, but it was clear to me from the beginning that the level of model support would be very similar to Lord of the Rings, which is also handled by Forge World now.

A few books here and there, a plastic kit or two every quarter, some resin stuff to pad out the release schedule, but mostly old kits plus a few old metal models brought back via made to order.

Manage your expectations, pay attention to how GW handles their other non-main systems, and you can't be disappointed.

a lot of people hoped that this will be really big and become the 3rd/4th main system, while other expected at least Specialist Game level treatment but from what we have seen, it is even less than Lord of the Rings as there won't be a cheap entry to the game

this is a lot smaller than most people expected, while also a lot of people have told them not to expect much

PS: it is even less than HH started off as even that game got a cheap model starter with the boxed games, although it was not a dedicated 2 player set]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526173.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526173.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
No starter set just seems baffling. What was the last game GW released that didn't have a starter set of some kind? It's even more absurd when part of the reason WHFB was ended was because it wasn't easy to get into. Several armies being playable but seemingly not getting anything beyond that also feels bad.

It already feels like they don't know what they're really doing and are just making it all up as they go, with little thought. It comes across as bringing it back only to take it in a direction that'll result in it being discarded again.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526176.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526176.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 His Master's Voice wrote:
It's not about how GW handles their secondary systems, it's whether WFB should be a secondary system.

GW thinks it should. I think they're gearing up to squander one of their most valuable properties a second time.

Hope I'm wrong.



Thing is AoS replaced Old World in its position as major fantasy model line.

GW bringing old world back isn't going to change that one bit. GW were up front that Old World was going to be like HH so having resin alongside plastic makes perfect senses, HH also has a lot of resin. It also makes sense that they might start smaller with it. GW has never run concurrent fantasy lines alongside each other from their own IP - the only time they've done it was with Lord of the Rings and Old World at the same time and you can argue that that did help contribute to reasons that resulted in Old World dwindling in popularity.


As for old kits coming back, people keep thinking that that means they are bringing the super old skeletons back and not that its the new stuff (eg skeletons riding snake constructs) which was pretty new at the time of it being removed. Tomb Kings weren't an army of just old models, they had a good chunk of new things that were lost along with them. So bringing those back is good news and also means GW can help bulk out the release.



In the end what actually happens is going to be for GW to show us and for the market to respond too. GW being more cautious about that is a smart move. It if fails or dwindles or if everyone just buys models to use in AoS then GW can adapt. If it takes off like crazy GW can adapt to that too. Better for them to test the waters than to dive in head first with a vast investment only to find that there was a lot of internet hot-air and not enough actual customers for the Old World e tc.... ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526178.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526178.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526181.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526181.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Overread wrote:
 His Master's Voice wrote:
It's not about how GW handles their secondary systems, it's whether WFB should be a secondary system.

GW thinks it should. I think they're gearing up to squander one of their most valuable properties a second time.

Hope I'm wrong.



In the end what actually happens is going to be for GW to show us and for the market to respond too. GW being more cautious about that is a smart move. It if fails or dwindles or if everyone just buys models to use in AoS then GW can adapt. If it takes off like crazy GW can adapt to that too. Better for them to test the waters than to dive in head first with a vast investment only to find that there was a lot of internet hot-air and not enough actual customers for the Old World e tc....


Except not committing to it enough is only going to make it more likely to result in it not doing well. If they don't give it enough attention because people might not get into it, and people don't get into it because they haven't given it enough attention, that's just a self-fullfilling prophecy of their own making. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526182.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526182.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 His Master's Voice wrote:
It's not about how GW handles their secondary systems, it's whether WFB should be a secondary system.

GW thinks it should. I think they're gearing up to squander one of their most valuable properties a second time.

Hope I'm wrong.


Even if it was primary every faction back all new plastic wouldn't be in cards.

That would require more resources gw's main cash cow gets combined over years.

Sorrv but anybody who expects that has zero business sense and would bankrupt gw inside half a year.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526184.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526184.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
tneva82 wrote:
Sorrv but anybody who expects that has zero business sense and would bankrupt gw inside half a year.


If you find anybody who expected that, do tell them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526187.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526187.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 Overread wrote:
 His Master's Voice wrote:
It's not about how GW handles their secondary systems, it's whether WFB should be a secondary system.

GW thinks it should. I think they're gearing up to squander one of their most valuable properties a second time.

Hope I'm wrong.



In the end what actually happens is going to be for GW to show us and for the market to respond too. GW being more cautious about that is a smart move. It if fails or dwindles or if everyone just buys models to use in AoS then GW can adapt. If it takes off like crazy GW can adapt to that too. Better for them to test the waters than to dive in head first with a vast investment only to find that there was a lot of internet hot-air and not enough actual customers for the Old World e tc....


Except not committing to it enough is only going to make it more likely to result in it not doing well. If they don't give it enough attention because people might not get into it, and people don't get into it because they haven't given it enough attention, that's just a self-fullfilling prophecy of their own making.


Yep. The HH infantry hiatus already made people gun-shy, and that was with a huge and enthusiastic start to HH 2.0. An even worse production schedule for TOW is going to flatten interest. Starting without confidence and this lackluster preview (after years and years of map fluff only) is pointing the starting gun at the racer's foot. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526189.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526189.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Overread wrote:

In the end what actually happens is going to be for GW to show us and for the market to respond too. GW being more cautious about that is a smart move. It if fails or dwindles or if everyone just buys models to use in AoS then GW can adapt. If it takes off like crazy GW can adapt to that too. Better for them to test the waters than to dive in head first with a vast investment only to find that there was a lot of internet hot-air and not enough actual customers for the Old World e tc....
given that Warhammer died because there was not much support from GW, mainly on the model side, and expensive to get into doubt that doing the same now will result an the opposite outcome

and I doubt that GW manage to react that fast if people storm the pre-order and the rulebook is sold within minutes, we have seen what GW does with unexpected high sales on niche products like Cursed City
like TOW selling better than expected, getting high priced models a year later to compensate won't do anything good]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526192.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526192.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! https://twitter.com/ED__E/status/1652702518743379972

Eddie Eccles clarifying while there won't be a starter set, that doesn't mean there won't be a launch box like Horus Heresy's Age of Darkness box set.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526201.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526201.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!

Anyway... This is a more positive turn of events.

The only thing I'm slightly dissapointed by is the return of metal miniatures. I was kind of hoping that all metal miniatures would be remade in plastic. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526202.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526202.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 stahly wrote:
https://twitter.com/ED__E/status/1652702518743379972

Eddie Eccles clarifying while there won't be a starter set, that doesn't mean there won't be a launch box like Horus Heresy's Age of Darkness box set.


Just what's the difference between that and a starter set? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526203.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526203.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 stahly wrote:
https://twitter.com/ED__E/status/1652702518743379972

Eddie Eccles clarifying while there won't be a starter set, that doesn't mean there won't be a launch box like Horus Heresy's Age of Darkness box set.


Just what's the difference between that and a starter set?


I think starter sets have dice and rules and rulers and stuff and "not starter sets" have a few of those things missing?

edit - wait I just went and looked the HH set has everything a starter set has. Literally everything including templates.


So perhaps it just lacks the "starter set" advertising letters? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526204.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526204.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Overread wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 stahly wrote:
https://twitter.com/ED__E/status/1652702518743379972

Eddie Eccles clarifying while there won't be a starter set, that doesn't mean there won't be a launch box like Horus Heresy's Age of Darkness box set.


Just what's the difference between that and a starter set?


I think starter sets have dice and rules and rulers and stuff and "not starter sets" have a few of those things missing?

edit - wait I just went and looked the HH set has everything a starter set has. Literally everything including templates.


So perhaps it just lacks the "starter set" advertising letters?


Looking at the twitter thing he says a "starter set" contains a board/mat and such, but to me "starter set" is synonymous with just the typical box sets of 2 armies + rules you can use to get into it at launch. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526207.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526207.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I've been enthusiastic and even eager for ToW up until now, but some of this stuff has really started to sway me in the other direction.

No starter set just seems baffling. What was the last game GW released that didn't have a starter set of some kind? It's even more absurd when part of the reason WHFB was ended was because it wasn't easy to get into. Several armies being playable but seemingly not getting anything beyond that also feels bad.

It already feels like they don't know what they're really doing and are just making it all up as they go, with little thought. It comes across as bringing it back only to take it in a direction that'll result in it being discarded again.


Again, I think they're really doing a two phase release. It's taking a long time for them to get TOW out the door as a product, COVID no doubt screwed up the timeline and folks are rightfully getting impatient. Their doing phase 1 release of basically preexisting content and new rules to get the game back into people's hands and on their tables so as to not squander the hype any more than they already have while they continue working on "phase 2" which was their originally planned product launch (three emperors narrative stuff, launch box of two rival empire armies. etc).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526208.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526208.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Overread wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 stahly wrote:
https://twitter.com/ED__E/status/1652702518743379972

Eddie Eccles clarifying while there won't be a starter set, that doesn't mean there won't be a launch box like Horus Heresy's Age of Darkness box set.


Just what's the difference between that and a starter set?


I think starter sets have dice and rules and rulers and stuff and "not starter sets" have a few of those things missing?

edit - wait I just went and looked the HH set has everything a starter set has. Literally everything including templates.


So perhaps it just lacks the "starter set" advertising letters?


Starter set used to have easy to play rules, quick start pamphlets and how to assemble leaflets. That type of paperworks?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526209.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526209.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526210.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526210.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!

At least there'll be models to buy...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526216.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526216.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
chaos0xomega wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I've been enthusiastic and even eager for ToW up until now, but some of this stuff has really started to sway me in the other direction.

No starter set just seems baffling. What was the last game GW released that didn't have a starter set of some kind? It's even more absurd when part of the reason WHFB was ended was because it wasn't easy to get into. Several armies being playable but seemingly not getting anything beyond that also feels bad.

It already feels like they don't know what they're really doing and are just making it all up as they go, with little thought. It comes across as bringing it back only to take it in a direction that'll result in it being discarded again.


Again, I think they're really doing a two phase release. It's taking a long time for them to get TOW out the door as a product, COVID no doubt screwed up the timeline and folks are rightfully getting impatient. Their doing phase 1 release of basically preexisting content and new rules to get the game back into people's hands and on their tables so as to not squander the hype any more than they already have while they continue working on "phase 2" which was their originally planned product launch (three emperors narrative stuff, launch box of two rival empire armies. etc).



I agree. For what I care by now, they could just re-release 6th or 7th edition and old models by now, and some vague promises about updates and future releases. At least it would formalize the 'living/existing game' status that is important to so many gamers.

I feel I've waited long enough for this hypothetical game. I dont even know what the army comp rules will be so I can paint up while waiting. Luckily I've gotten into Mordheim living rulebook gak, (which is contrary to my gamer tastes, but its pretty good) and can live with TOW just being vaporware. Feels disappointed at todays release/teaser. Its obvious any real release is at least 2 years in the future. At the very minimum 18 months.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526219.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526219.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW is about to crash the Old World a second time. Maybe they are just doing the minimum to keep the IP going?

Otherwise, this is very disappointing. Good news for Conquest though I suppose.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526220.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526220.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 stahly wrote:
https://twitter.com/ED__E/status/1652702518743379972

Eddie Eccles clarifying while there won't be a starter set, that doesn't mean there won't be a launch box like Horus Heresy's Age of Darkness box set.


What a pointless distinction, but at least the message is reassuring.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526223.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526223.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
chaos0xomega wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I've been enthusiastic and even eager for ToW up until now, but some of this stuff has really started to sway me in the other direction.

No starter set just seems baffling. What was the last game GW released that didn't have a starter set of some kind? It's even more absurd when part of the reason WHFB was ended was because it wasn't easy to get into. Several armies being playable but seemingly not getting anything beyond that also feels bad.

It already feels like they don't know what they're really doing and are just making it all up as they go, with little thought. It comes across as bringing it back only to take it in a direction that'll result in it being discarded again.


Again, I think they're really doing a two phase release. It's taking a long time for them to get TOW out the door as a product, COVID no doubt screwed up the timeline and folks are rightfully getting impatient. Their doing phase 1 release of basically preexisting content and new rules to get the game back into people's hands and on their tables so as to not squander the hype any more than they already have while they continue working on "phase 2" which was their originally planned product launch (three emperors narrative stuff, launch box of two rival empire armies. etc).


There's absolutely no evidence of that, though. Nowhere has something like a "two rival empire armies" launch box been suggested, either before or now. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526224.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526224.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
caladancid wrote:
All the info making the rounds really shows me GW is about to crash the Old World a second time. Maybe they are just doing the minimum to keep the IP going?

Otherwise, this is very disappointing. Good news for Conquest though I suppose.


Conquest was going to be okay unless GW decided to go full on rank and file. The game is different enough (lore, scale, art direction and rules) that hits a different spot than Warhammer Fantasy. Removed - none of that please.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526229.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526229.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
caladancid wrote:
All the info making the rounds really shows me GW is about to crash the Old World a second time. Maybe they are just doing the minimum to keep the IP going?

Otherwise, this is very disappointing. Good news for Conquest though I suppose.


Seems like they're not really working on it. Though the bretonnian paladin looks great imo, I can get similar stuff 3d printed. I feel like they could just release a Legacy rulebook with 7th edition and all 16 army books some old models and that'd be it, as much as they seem to not worl on TOW anyway.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526230.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526230.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW is willing to ignore sales numbers for an extended period of time.

Can anyone imagine GW looking the other way for a year or two while this project is taking up production capacity?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526232.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526232.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Just Tony wrote:
It's looking like they're putting the barest minimum effort into this so I'm expecting essentially an 8th Ed. reissue rules wise. I'd gamble with 90% certainty that I'll have no incentive to walk away from 6th.


At least there'll be models to buy...


Rules (writers) are cheap. Molds are not. Cutting cost on models is not likely indicative of the effort that goes into the rules.

 BertBert wrote:
 stahly wrote:
https://twitter.com/ED__E/status/1652702518743379972

Eddie Eccles clarifying while there won't be a starter set, that doesn't mean there won't be a launch box like Horus Heresy's Age of Darkness box set.


What a pointless distinction, but at least the message is reassuring.


It highlights how badly GW communicates. They are more concerned with keeping everything a secret than setting clear expectations, and surprisingly* that comes back to bite them time and again.

I was actually surprised how much actual information was in the various roadmaps. I think AoS is the weakest one still, shying away from telling you what the last battletome is when codices to be released around that time are named. Getting nothing at all for Old World during the same event that sees some loosening in this area probably makes things look even worse.


* to no one but GW**
** the last part is speculative]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526235.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526235.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Overread wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 stahly wrote:
https://twitter.com/ED__E/status/1652702518743379972

Eddie Eccles clarifying while there won't be a starter set, that doesn't mean there won't be a launch box like Horus Heresy's Age of Darkness box set.


Just what's the difference between that and a starter set?


I think starter sets have dice and rules and rulers and stuff and "not starter sets" have a few of those things missing?

edit - wait I just went and looked the HH set has everything a starter set has. Literally everything including templates.


So perhaps it just lacks the "starter set" advertising letters?
Launch Box means limited numbers and no re-print
like the 40k boxes at start are launch boxes, those that come later with less models are the 2 player sets

so if they make a launch box it just means it is not meant to stay but gone if it sells out]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526251.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526251.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 kodos wrote:
[Launch Box means limited numbers and no re-print
like the 40k boxes at start are launch boxes, those that come later with less models are the 2 player sets

so if they make a launch box it just means it is not meant to stay but gone if it sells out


Which is fantastic because scalpers can just pick up right where they left.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526253.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526253.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526254.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526254.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Sathrut wrote:
Seen this doing the rounds:





So new Saurus Warriors will be universal, but I guess Cold One Riders will return.

Woah, it seems that I was not in hopium/copium/dreamium after all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Olthannon wrote:
Well at least there is a launch box and presumably there will be battalion boxes as well.


No launch box it seems.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526264.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526264.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
https://twitter.com/Burgschneider/status/1652659339470020608?s=20
https://twitter.com/Burgschneider/status/1652659341986525186?s=20

A licensed range of costumes lines, for Warhammer fans and LARPers, initally centered on The Old World, Empire of Man and Bretonnia mentioned.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526265.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526265.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Do people forget forge world is resin maker? That's their thing...asking resin maker do plastic is like asking gw not do plastic.

You get new plastic models as well. No resin models was never on cards. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526266.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526266.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Sathrut wrote:
In other TOW news:

https://twitter.com/Burgschneider/status/1652659339470020608?s=20
https://twitter.com/Burgschneider/status/1652659341986525186?s=20

A licensed range of costumes lines, for Warhammer fans and LARPers, initally centered on The Old World, Empire of Man and Bretonnia mentioned.


That's actually pretty darn neat news - esp considering how Larping is on a rise]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526274.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526274.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW has to play all of their cards close to the vest, because of the upcoming 40k release. I would expect more chewier info about TOW after that release, like in the fall or winter closer to TOW's release around Christmas.

Just so you guys know the announcement of resin models is a good thing. Resin like metal allows the designers allot more flexibility when is comes to releasing new models/units/monsters. We have discovered the with plastics take allot longer to plan and produce. With resin/metal models a company can have new models on the table in a couple of months for little cost, while it can take a long time to plan and produce plastic models, almost a year for one mold in some cases.

I disagree that the rerelease of older plastic is bad. It is a very sound and smart choice. Most of the plastics that exist in both AoS and 40k are older kits. I mean look at the Ogres and the Eldar they are still selling troop kits from the early 2000's and they are still good when put them up against more recent kits. I am a fan of some of the kits they are releasing like the Bret Knights and the Nercosphinx. I agree with what has been said before, it is more important to get models on the table then argue about making new ones of kits that already exist and are still quite good. Anyway even if GW did put out new Realm Knights, i am fairly confident that they would not look very different then kit we are getting (their design is figured out). I am way more interested in the new units that are coming to the table top.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526296.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526296.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
I only ask that it’s character models in resin. Sure WHFB never had the plastic range we have today in AoS and 40K, as a significant number of units were metal/Finecast.

But I don’t want to have to pay Forgeworld Prices for units worth of models. Nor deal with cleaning up and washing resin unless it’s truly unavoidable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Overread wrote:
Sathrut wrote:
In other TOW news:

https://twitter.com/Burgschneider/status/1652659339470020608?s=20
https://twitter.com/Burgschneider/status/1652659341986525186?s=20

A licensed range of costumes lines, for Warhammer fans and LARPers, initally centered on The Old World, Empire of Man and Bretonnia mentioned.


That's actually pretty darn neat news - esp considering how Larping is on a rise


On this, as a formerly seasoned LARPer?

There’s LARP safe weapons, and your preferred system’s LARP safe weapons!

Buy smart. Buy…well. S-Mart, I guess.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526302.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526302.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Sathrut wrote:
In other TOW news:

https://twitter.com/Burgschneider/status/1652659339470020608?s=20
https://twitter.com/Burgschneider/status/1652659341986525186?s=20

A licensed range of costumes lines, for Warhammer fans and LARPers, initally centered on The Old World, Empire of Man and Bretonnia mentioned.

Given the image bears the badge of Nuln... just how does one render a cannon LARP-safe?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526309.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526309.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Dysartes wrote:
Sathrut wrote:
In other TOW news:

https://twitter.com/Burgschneider/status/1652659339470020608?s=20
https://twitter.com/Burgschneider/status/1652659341986525186?s=20

A licensed range of costumes lines, for Warhammer fans and LARPers, initally centered on The Old World, Empire of Man and Bretonnia mentioned.

Given the image bears the badge of Nuln... just how does one render a cannon LARP-safe?


There are a couple of hobbyists that made LARP cannons with compressed air and foam balls, but usually projectile weapons of all kinds are not allowed because of legal issues and common sense ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526314.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526314.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
By failing to encourage new people into the game and providing a number of starting points, they're just setting it up for failure. I'm going to be so pissed off if they come out and say 'no new people were buying the range' in a few years. If bloody Necromunda can support a starter set, then TOW should be able to.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526323.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526323.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! HH doesn't have a starter, does that mean they have no faith in that?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526325.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526325.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW's definition of a starter box is the ones AoS and 40k have with the three sizes with the cardboard terrain and stuff.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526327.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526327.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Vorian wrote:
But HH doesn't have a starter, does that mean they have no faith in that?



Yeah my bad, it's been clarified on Twitter. GW classifies 'starter sets' as those paints/pushfits/bit of gak cardboard things that they put out alongside 40k/AOS at three price points. Not the traditional '2 armies/rulebook in a box' style releases, which everyone else calls starter sets.If we're getting the latter, then I'll retract my previous statement and it's a lot less of an issue.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526329.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526329.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Overread wrote:
Sathrut wrote:
In other TOW news:

https://twitter.com/Burgschneider/status/1652659339470020608?s=20
https://twitter.com/Burgschneider/status/1652659341986525186?s=20

A licensed range of costumes lines, for Warhammer fans and LARPers, initally centered on The Old World, Empire of Man and Bretonnia mentioned.


That's actually pretty darn neat news - esp considering how Larping is on a rise

Larp is popular for a long time here, and Warhammer dominates the greater local Fantasy scene (more or less), specially for the evil factions

so yes, for a lot of people it will be nice to finally buy the stuff instead of scratch building everything]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526352.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526352.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Londinium wrote:
Well that was a very disappointing reveal. The fact that they're not doing a starter box shows that they don't have much faith in this and aren't going to push it to any new people (also judged by 'it's not your starter wargame comments).

By failing to encourage new people into the game and providing a number of starting points, they're just setting it up for failure. I'm going to be so pissed off if they come out and say 'no new people were buying the range' in a few years. If bloody Necromunda can support a starter set, then TOW should be able to.


Serious question, do you even think there is a game?

No starter set. No release date. No nothing. 2025 at the earliest I say, and I now believe the whole thing was a stunt to take wind out of KoWs sails.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526356.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526356.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! Lol. What vaporware. Community waited what? Three(?) years for a couple middling resin characters? And no real info on what is coming. They can't even definitvely tell us what base sizes things will use.

What a joke. Very glad I've moved on to superior systems from companies that don't treat me with disdain.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526364.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526364.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I've been enthusiastic and even eager for ToW up until now, but some of this stuff has really started to sway me in the other direction.

No starter set just seems baffling. What was the last game GW released that didn't have a starter set of some kind? It's even more absurd when part of the reason WHFB was ended was because it wasn't easy to get into. Several armies being playable but seemingly not getting anything beyond that also feels bad.

It already feels like they don't know what they're really doing and are just making it all up as they go, with little thought. It comes across as bringing it back only to take it in a direction that'll result in it being discarded again.


Again, I think they're really doing a two phase release. It's taking a long time for them to get TOW out the door as a product, COVID no doubt screwed up the timeline and folks are rightfully getting impatient. Their doing phase 1 release of basically preexisting content and new rules to get the game back into people's hands and on their tables so as to not squander the hype any more than they already have while they continue working on "phase 2" which was their originally planned product launch (three emperors narrative stuff, launch box of two rival empire armies. etc).


There's absolutely no evidence of that, though. Nowhere has something like a "two rival empire armies" launch box been suggested, either before or now.


They said during the panel/q&a that the age of three emperors content would be coming later, well after the launch of the game and Bretonnia/Tomb Kings, etc, and that the Three Emperors stuff will be the main avenue of focus through which the games future would be developed, so that's pretty clearly evidence that it's a two-step product launch if first they are launching the game with free online rules for existibg kideld, etc and then later releasing new stuff. If they are going too have a big launch box like Horus Heresy, it's probably not going to be a box filled with old outdated kits, so that three emperors stuff is the likely candidate, and since they said three emperors won't be the initial release of the game.... do the math.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526369.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526369.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
chaos0xomega wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I've been enthusiastic and even eager for ToW up until now, but some of this stuff has really started to sway me in the other direction.

No starter set just seems baffling. What was the last game GW released that didn't have a starter set of some kind? It's even more absurd when part of the reason WHFB was ended was because it wasn't easy to get into. Several armies being playable but seemingly not getting anything beyond that also feels bad.

It already feels like they don't know what they're really doing and are just making it all up as they go, with little thought. It comes across as bringing it back only to take it in a direction that'll result in it being discarded again.


Again, I think they're really doing a two phase release. It's taking a long time for them to get TOW out the door as a product, COVID no doubt screwed up the timeline and folks are rightfully getting impatient. Their doing phase 1 release of basically preexisting content and new rules to get the game back into people's hands and on their tables so as to not squander the hype any more than they already have while they continue working on "phase 2" which was their originally planned product launch (three emperors narrative stuff, launch box of two rival empire armies. etc).


There's absolutely no evidence of that, though. Nowhere has something like a "two rival empire armies" launch box been suggested, either before or now.


They said during the panel/q&a that the age of three emperors content would be coming later, well after the launch of the game and Bretonnia/Tomb Kings, etc, and that the Three Emperors stuff will be the main avenue of focus through which the games future would be developed, so that's pretty clearly evidence that it's a two-step product launch if first they are launching the game with free online rules for existibg kideld, etc and then later releasing new stuff. If they are going too have a big launch box like Horus Heresy, it's probably not going to be a box filled with old outdated kits, so that three emperors stuff is the likely candidate, and since they said three emperors won't be the initial release of the game.... do the math.


Yeah, and stuff like this would have been prime content to put into the actual presentation, and not just in the non-streamed Q&A session (i get that there are reasons for not streaming that, but you could, you know, have actual things and information in the organized part, not just 5 mostly empty slides and some filler art). As it stands, relevant info trickles through several layers of distortion before it reaches the wider community, and what one forum sees as readily apparent because they have an 'in' on the session seems like unhinged ramblings to another. It's a dumb approach championed by very dumb marketing/management people. They struggled to fill even half-hour slots anyway, i don't buy for a second that time was the issue here...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526375.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526375.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
chaos0xomega wrote:
I think people imagined something closer to Horus Heresy, given they said this would be the Horus Heresy to AoS's 40k.


A Horus Heresy level of support for TOW would come out to maybe 1 new plastic kit per faction on average. Which checks out with what was said?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526380.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526380.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
But ultimately if TOW is going to be models from 10-30 years ago (maybe some newer AoS on square bases, who knows), with a few Finecast characters and perhaps the odd new plastic kit, I'm just not interested.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526382.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526382.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
one problem here is, that the 3 Emperor is a similar setting to HH, a starter set with humans and resin upgrades to turn them into the 3 different factions, or even going further making one for each state would have sold and get things running

add Norsca and Kislev into it, Dwarfs and Orcs over the next years and keep the game going

this is what was expected when said, similar to HH

now it is old stuff Bretonnia and Khemri, with some Q&A answers that hint that the new plastic kits will be for units that were not there before rather than replacing old ones
which might be also similar to HH regarding the available units

if all this results in a rushed rule book just to make it this year without actual content, this won't fly
for an anniversary they could just re-release the 6th Edition book and Ravening Hordes book as Hardcover Premium Edition in 3 books (rules, army lists, background) and as bonus adding the 8th edition models to the game. Would do less harm than a rushed new game]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526386.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526386.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
So was fairly happy with what came to light. Just give me a rulebook, the army lists and access to the old models and I'm good to go.

I am interested that we haven't seen Tomb King regiments yet in the same way that we've seen old school Bretonnian kits. Makes me wonder if they are going to re-do the TK skeletons to the same scale as Vampire Count skeletons.

But then the Tomb Guard would be out of scale (assuming they reissued that kit). Hmm... ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526393.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526393.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
The new models are quite nice. Other companies do do nice resin and the same theme and much cheaper so....]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526394.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526394.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Tyel wrote:
I'm quite negative after this. Maybe as some people seem to be arguing it was a realistic tonic.

But ultimately if TOW is going to be models from 10-30 years ago (maybe some newer AoS on square bases, who knows), with a few Finecast characters and perhaps the odd new plastic kit, I'm just not interested.


Ultimately their current offer is 'some' Bretonnia and Khemri, two factions that were probably not among the top sellers, in an as-of-yet undetermined mix of plastic, FW resin and metal, in an as of yet unspecified release model, with rules coming in as of yet unspecified 'army book equivalents, and then a heap of promises that actually cool stuff would be coming some time in the future.

As i said before, they don't seem to know where they want to be going with all of this.

Judging by the facts that they are actually showing, and not by proclamations, promises and other things starting with 'p', it will be very daunting to start this game if you don't have a WHFB army already or can source a pre-owned one on the cheap; handling FW resin, possibly for whole regiments, is not something to look forward to, and there is a real risk plastics will come with limited availability, or important parts of each range as direct-only or even MTO. The game, as we have been shown it now, runs a very real risk of withering on the vine due to these concerns.

I love the old world as a setting, but all of this shapes up to a game that picks the worst parts of several different release models and consequently turns out as a stupid product nobody asked for.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526398.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526398.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 lord_blackfang wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
I think people imagined something closer to Horus Heresy, given they said this would be the Horus Heresy to AoS's 40k.


A Horus Heresy level of support for TOW would come out to maybe 1 new plastic kit per faction on average. Which checks out with what was said?


For many here when it was revealed that the game would be set during an Empire Civil War, our assumption was it would see a HH 2.0 style release - "indexes" for legacy content on launch, with a launch release of a full armies worth of models that could be used to represent the various feuding Civil War factions, while they slowly rolled out additional factions over time.

A new hero/unit per existing WHFB faction just sounds kind of tedious tbh.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526399.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526399.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! WHFB, It is really unreasonable to expect a brand-new plastic kit for every unit in every army. One or two plastic kits per year would not be pretty reasonable since GW's main focus is on 40K and their reskinned 40k, AOS.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526401.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526401.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Gallahad wrote:
Lol. What vaporware. Community waited what? Three(?) years for a couple middling resin characters? And no real info on what is coming. They can't even definitvely tell us what base sizes things will use.

What a joke. Very glad I've moved on to superior systems from companies that don't treat me with disdain.


You know, I hadn't thought of it that way, but its not totally wrong. Crazy lack of detail here after years, and for a game where most of the work is really already done if they are not creating a ton of new kits.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526402.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526402.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Paymaster Games wrote:
I agree with Blackfang. There are 16 armies for WHFB, It is really unreasonable to expect a brand-new plastic kit for every unit in every army.
no one, literally no one ever claimed that
never
this is the same bs is if people talking about better balance and someone comes around with "stop asking for perfect balance, this does not exist" now one did it, no one wants it

the point is simple, one reason why Bretonnia and Khemri did not sell well back in the old days was the mix of old and very old and new models that did not really fit together
if they now release that very mix of models again, why should it be different now

now ones wants all factions re-done at once, but we expect support that avoids the mistakes of the past and not repeating them hence at least 1 re-designed faction should be there
and we have already discussed how GW could add more than 1 with a minimum of afford]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526403.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526403.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
chaos0xomega wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I've been enthusiastic and even eager for ToW up until now, but some of this stuff has really started to sway me in the other direction.

No starter set just seems baffling. What was the last game GW released that didn't have a starter set of some kind? It's even more absurd when part of the reason WHFB was ended was because it wasn't easy to get into. Several armies being playable but seemingly not getting anything beyond that also feels bad.

It already feels like they don't know what they're really doing and are just making it all up as they go, with little thought. It comes across as bringing it back only to take it in a direction that'll result in it being discarded again.


Again, I think they're really doing a two phase release. It's taking a long time for them to get TOW out the door as a product, COVID no doubt screwed up the timeline and folks are rightfully getting impatient. Their doing phase 1 release of basically preexisting content and new rules to get the game back into people's hands and on their tables so as to not squander the hype any more than they already have while they continue working on "phase 2" which was their originally planned product launch (three emperors narrative stuff, launch box of two rival empire armies. etc).


There's absolutely no evidence of that, though. Nowhere has something like a "two rival empire armies" launch box been suggested, either before or now.


They said during the panel/q&a that the age of three emperors content would be coming later, well after the launch of the game and Bretonnia/Tomb Kings, etc, and that the Three Emperors stuff will be the main avenue of focus through which the games future would be developed, so that's pretty clearly evidence that it's a two-step product launch if first they are launching the game with free online rules for existibg kideld, etc and then later releasing new stuff. If they are going too have a big launch box like Horus Heresy, it's probably not going to be a box filled with old outdated kits, so that three emperors stuff is the likely candidate, and since they said three emperors won't be the initial release of the game.... do the math.


Well sorry for not magically knowing about something that wasn't streamed, wasn't included in summaries that i've seen, and hasn't been mentioned in this thread before you randomly bought it up in a way that seemed to just be a theory without you including anything to directly support it, I guess.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526404.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526404.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! -They will re-release old kits and even metal models to some degree, meaning you can expand your old army, or compleat the army you have tried to scrape together since the "post end times purge".
-The new stuff they are making are true to the style of the old range, perhaps just trying to fill some gaps in the lists and characters that need representation.

Now I would really like to know if they bring back old scenery kits
And, you know, get a hint if the rules are contemporary new stuff or just a more stylish 6th edition rip-off.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526405.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526405.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Sathrut wrote:
"New stuff for AoS unlikely to be ported back to WHF." - from screengrab

Just because GW won't port back new AoS units doesn't mean that the player community can't get the job done. The player base has created stuff for Necromunda and Titanicus that looks amazing (and has fewer errors than FW's rules).

Let's face it, those Freeguild Cavaliers look amazing. Someone somewhere will absolutely whip up a unit profile so they can be taken as a rare choice for Empire.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526406.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526406.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Gallahad wrote:
Lol. What vaporware. Community waited what? Three(?) years for a couple middling resin characters? And no real info on what is coming. They can't even definitvely tell us what base sizes things will use.

What a joke. Very glad I've moved on to superior systems from companies that don't treat me with disdain.


Yes. The lack of a release date and 2 resin heroes is spitting on us.

As can be seen in this thread going back, I'ven been enthusiastic about ttb TOW, but it is clearly vaporware and will never be released in any meaningful way. I'd take an unedited release of 6th, 7th or 8th with the old models, but seeing how things are I gues WAP or KoW is more sensible to waste time on.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526407.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526407.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
chaos0xomega wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
I think people imagined something closer to Horus Heresy, given they said this would be the Horus Heresy to AoS's 40k.


A Horus Heresy level of support for TOW would come out to maybe 1 new plastic kit per faction on average. Which checks out with what was said?


For many here when it was revealed that the game would be set during an Empire Civil War, our assumption was it would see a HH 2.0 style release - "indexes" for legacy content on launch, with a launch release of a full armies worth of models that could be used to represent the various feuding Civil War factions, while they slowly rolled out additional factions over time.

A new hero/unit per existing WHFB faction just sounds kind of tedious tbh.


I think I expressed when they were peddling those Kislev concepts my suspictions that zero work had been done for TOW at the time and they were just stalling with assets created for Total War]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526408.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526408.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I've been enthusiastic and even eager for ToW up until now, but some of this stuff has really started to sway me in the other direction.

No starter set just seems baffling. What was the last game GW released that didn't have a starter set of some kind? It's even more absurd when part of the reason WHFB was ended was because it wasn't easy to get into. Several armies being playable but seemingly not getting anything beyond that also feels bad.

It already feels like they don't know what they're really doing and are just making it all up as they go, with little thought. It comes across as bringing it back only to take it in a direction that'll result in it being discarded again.


Again, I think they're really doing a two phase release. It's taking a long time for them to get TOW out the door as a product, COVID no doubt screwed up the timeline and folks are rightfully getting impatient. Their doing phase 1 release of basically preexisting content and new rules to get the game back into people's hands and on their tables so as to not squander the hype any more than they already have while they continue working on "phase 2" which was their originally planned product launch (three emperors narrative stuff, launch box of two rival empire armies. etc).


There's absolutely no evidence of that, though. Nowhere has something like a "two rival empire armies" launch box been suggested, either before or now.


They said during the panel/q&a that the age of three emperors content would be coming later, well after the launch of the game and Bretonnia/Tomb Kings, etc, and that the Three Emperors stuff will be the main avenue of focus through which the games future would be developed, so that's pretty clearly evidence that it's a two-step product launch if first they are launching the game with free online rules for existibg kideld, etc and then later releasing new stuff. If they are going too have a big launch box like Horus Heresy, it's probably not going to be a box filled with old outdated kits, so that three emperors stuff is the likely candidate, and since they said three emperors won't be the initial release of the game.... do the math.


Well sorry for not magically knowing about something that wasn't streamed, wasn't included in summaries that i've seen, and hasn't been mentioned in this thread before you randomly bought it up in a way that seemed to just be a theory without you including anything to directly support it, I guess.


I hope they take away some feedback from this bs show and do seminars in the future that actually cover some stuff... the whole thing had this weird quarter-assed feeling about it, with the uninspired presenters giving off their best "I'd rather be down at the pub" impression, basically meaningless slides, tight lids on anything but background art and other 'unstealable' stuff like that, they even weirder no-show LOTR 'preview' and so on... all that stuff could easily have been condensed in a two-day event, and would probably have been received better for it. They still seem afraid of giving out information that they're not absolutely forced to reveal, contrary to the rest of the industry. The only unambiguously positive development among all this 3/5 star stuff is that they now do roadmaps for everything, that's more reassuring than getting a resin miniature of spanker Grabprick every quarter and then 10 weeks of total radio silence...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526409.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526409.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Kickstarter companies manage more than a few maps and a few figures in the time GW have had, on a fraction of the money GW have.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526415.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526415.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW skittishness of actually giving out information for anything that isn't 1-2 months away. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526420.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526420.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Paymaster Games wrote:
I agree with Blackfang. There are 16 armies for WHFB, It is really unreasonable to expect a brand-new plastic kit for every unit in every army.


I think initially re-doing two factions and injecting actual new players into the ecosystem via fresh plastic crack would have worked better than this nosebleed drip of content they're planning, but GW clearly disagrees.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526428.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526428.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
And to add to that, I too am disappointed we only got to see two things and news about what material types minis will be released in.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526432.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526432.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Sounds an awful lot like the original announcement was made by someone who was on their last day and wanted to mess with the company!

I'm still treating this as nothing more than a chance to pick up some of the Tomb King kits I'm missing and nothing more. They bumbled through the presentation, kept the Q&A stuff offline (which had more info than the actual presentation, and is being fed back to the general fandom in the form of Chinese whispers on the forums. Can't wait for the youtubers to start embellishing more details from tomorrow! ) then backtracked on the no starter set news on twitter (ridiculous backtracking at that!)

It really seems like they either a- never intended this to become a project in the first place or b-lost key members of staff that were working on it and had to pivot the entire project. (Yes, covid delayed a lot of stuff. But if its as simple as a production delay why not just be honest about it?)

What ever happened to idea that we would see things like Cathay and Kislev, after all those total war/old world articles they put up originally? Why has it suddenly become a release of nothing but old miniatures (and a couple of resin kits which look like they were cooked up by a 3D artist for a quick patreon grab) and speculation that the empire civil war stuff will come later on. Why are they saying they are focusing on just armies that were active in the 'old world' region, but then also saying that all 8th Ed armies will be supported and then the lizardmen are getting new sculpts in the Q&A?

None of this makes any sense. Any enthusiasm I had for this project is completely gone from today's presentation. The old world should be the easiest sell in the world to 'existing' WFB players. Instead we get this mess. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526433.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526433.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Mallo wrote:

What ever happened to idea that we would see things like Cathay and Kislev, after all those total war/old world articles they put up originally? Why has it suddenly become a release of nothing but old miniatures (and a couple of resin kits which look like they were cooked up by a 3D artist for a quick patreon grab) and speculation that the empire civil war stuff will come later on. Why are they saying they are focusing on just armies that were active in the 'old world' region, but then also saying that all 8th Ed armies will be supported and then the lizardmen are getting new sculpts in the Q&A?


It really does seem odd that some of the first big things we saw were Kislev and it was talked about for a while, we were told that Kislev and Cathay were designed for TOW and they even made rules, only to now say "Oh, actually that's a very long way away".

So in order to hype up this project, they showed something that isn't relevant to the actual launch / core of it. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526434.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526434.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 RustyNumber wrote:
Ahahahaha oh boy, all the whinging and griping and doomsaying online is exactly what I expected with any TOW news. It really is like 2010 again!

And to add to that, I too am disappointed we only got to see two things and news about what material types minis will be released in.


I can't tell what parts of this post are real. 2010 did not herald a great edition of the game....]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526435.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526435.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526438.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526438.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! dev being... just the worst. So it's nice not to feel disappointed.

But MAN would I be disappointed if I'd been waiting years for this.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526439.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526439.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526443.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526443.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
 Mallo wrote:
Its all totally ridiculous.

Sounds an awful lot like the original announcement was made by someone who was on their last day and wanted to mess with the company!

I'm still treating this as nothing more than a chance to pick up some of the Tomb King kits I'm missing and nothing more. They bumbled through the presentation, kept the Q&A stuff offline (which had more info than the actual presentation, and is being fed back to the general fandom in the form of Chinese whispers on the forums. Can't wait for the youtubers to start embellishing more details from tomorrow! ) then backtracked on the no starter set news on twitter (ridiculous backtracking at that!)

It really seems like they either a- never intended this to become a project in the first place or b-lost key members of staff that were working on it and had to pivot the entire project. (Yes, covid delayed a lot of stuff. But if its as simple as a production delay why not just be honest about it?)

What ever happened to idea that we would see things like Cathay and Kislev, after all those total war/old world articles they put up originally? Why has it suddenly become a release of nothing but old miniatures (and a couple of resin kits which look like they were cooked up by a 3D artist for a quick patreon grab) and speculation that the empire civil war stuff will come later on. Why are they saying they are focusing on just armies that were active in the 'old world' region, but then also saying that all 8th Ed armies will be supported and then the lizardmen are getting new sculpts in the Q&A?

None of this makes any sense. Any enthusiasm I had for this project is completely gone from today's presentation. The old world should be the easiest sell in the world to 'existing' WFB players. Instead we get this mess.


If I remember right, CA clarified that the cathay/kislev rulebooks that GW wrote were just so the devs had a baseline to go off of. The books weren't written for the TOW line. That's not to say they won't be part of TOW, but a big part of their hype got dashed without much fanfare and anything in the game isn't indicative of what would be on the tabletop for TOW.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526453.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526453.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
I was very happy with the preview. it showed us quite a bit of information that we did not know before. Let's look at the info we had before this preview -


  • - Take place during the Three Emperors Period
    - There are maps of the Old World, Cathey, and the Land of the Dead
    - There is concept art for the Empire, Greenskins, Tomb Kings, Bretonnia and Kislev
    - Base Sizes are being upped, although we do not know how big yet
    - Some old Kits and models are returning (as expected based on previous art)


    • This is what we have learn from this preview -

  • - every army will be a mix of new and old model kits
    - armies will be a mix of Resin and Plastic (I believe that Metal was brought up i do not remember where)
    - 11 of the 16 armies will be getting army lists at launch (limited to the Army books of 8th edition)
    - Tomb Kings and Bretonnia Will be the first two armies (This was expected)


    • Based on this we do not know enough to judge it up or down at this point.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526455.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526455.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Also was it Valrak who started that, or just repeated it?
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526475.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526475.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    lost_lilliputian wrote:
    So do all those rumours about getting a starter box launch just before Xmas this year seem a bit on the nose now?



    I am not sure at this point. I read recently that GW is looking at balancing out the Combat Patrol/ Boarding Party boxes to make them more playable out of the gate. It is likely too early to get a balanced a kit like that for the Old World. Chances are some of those lists have not even been written yet much less play tested. We would likely see army boxes for the Tomb Kings and Bretonnia this Christmas, if i had to put money on it.

    Another option would be an Empire civil war box with two empire forces made up of common state troops and a couple of heroes. The idea would be that you could have two small empire armies or one large empire army.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526484.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526484.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    I think in the past some Bretonnian knights included metal heads for the horses too with detailed icons/grails etc.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526491.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526491.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     RustyNumber wrote:
    Ahahahaha oh boy, all the whinging and griping and doomsaying online is exactly what I expected with any TOW news. It really is like 2010 again!

    And to add to that, I too am disappointed we only got to see two things and news about what material types minis will be released in.


    People have been quite positive towards TOW, but what do you think should be the reaction after the Warhammer Fest announcement of two drawings and a Tomb King hero? Its clear they have no game.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526494.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526494.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     triplegrim wrote:
     RustyNumber wrote:
    Ahahahaha oh boy, all the whinging and griping and doomsaying online is exactly what I expected with any TOW news. It really is like 2010 again!

    And to add to that, I too am disappointed we only got to see two things and news about what material types minis will be released in.


    People have been quite positive towards TOW, but what do you think should be the reaction after the Warhammer Fest announcement of two drawings and a Tomb King hero? Its clear they have no game.


    Ah, but you see they DO have a game!

    That game is uh... 8th edition warhammer fantasy, apparently. Which is I think not what people wanted or expected.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526505.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526505.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526531.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526531.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Once again this is way to soon to start shooting this down. Yes it is starting to take shape, but as of now we have no idea what that shape is yet.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526532.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526532.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Mallo wrote:
    Why has it suddenly become a release of nothing but old miniatures (and a couple of resin kits which look like they were cooked up by a 3D artist for a quick patreon grab)


    If rather than ranting you would apply this useful skill taught in 1st grade called "reading" you would see new plastic kits are coming.

    But naah. Ranting based on your imagination is much more in your style clearly.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Paymaster Games wrote:

    - armies will be a mix of Resin and Plastic (I believe that Metal was brought up i do not remember where).


    warhammer community wrote: and they’ll join a whole range of resurrected and revitalised miniatures from prior editions of Warhammer Fantasy Battles – in plastic, resin, and metal – to make satisfyingly varied armies.


    Here clearly says metal.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526589.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526589.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    lost_lilliputian wrote:
    So do all those rumours about getting a starter box launch just before Xmas this year seem a bit on the nose now?

    Also was it Valrak who started that, or just repeated it?


    Valrak was in the camp of 'Epic this year' and said things about TOW only two times (at least according to my summaries of his videos that's been running since January): once before Warhammerfest, literally just to mention that he has no idea what they'll show, and once before Adepticon where he mentioned that Seraphon will be dual-use. The starter box rumour imho came from speculation and has no definite source, i know that i myself have speculated as such and mentioned it in several threads as something that would be likely from a marketing point of view because of the 40-year anniversary. Others may have done so as well.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526607.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526607.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! HH had them so why wouldn't the old world?

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526610.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526610.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Breotan wrote:
    A starter box makes sense. After all, HH had them so why wouldn't the old world?



    Apparently they fell back on 'well ackchually'-ing about semantics about that anyway, which is yet another not-so-good sign.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526612.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526612.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! HH is primarily about Marines vs Marines. You can buy and split the box, or just by one for yourself and have by far and away the most used army in that game. The base models for both loyalist and traitor forces are the same models.

    TOW isn’t like that as there will be a much wider range of armies played.

    It’s possible there will be a launch box available for a limited time, of course.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526617.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526617.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Breotan wrote:
    A starter box makes sense. After all, HH had them so why wouldn't the old world?
    GW and everyone related like to tell you that HH never had a starter set
    Starter Sets are well defined by GW and the Age of Darkness set is not a starter, therefore the misunderstanding as what GW means by that is something different as what people refer too

    now be it the problem that people are not talking in GW language when asking questions or GW not understanding what people mean is another topic

    but they just wanted to say that there won't be an easy to build new plastic starter set with Khemri and Bretonnia, just the same set but with regular models (at some point in time), which is totally not the same as a starter set (and dare you to leave the GW bubble to know that such boxes are named starter sets by other companies)

    /s]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526619.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526619.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Souleater wrote:
    But HH is primarily about Marines vs Marines. You can buy and split the box, or just by one for yourself and have by far and away the most used army in that game. The base models for both loyalist and traitor forces are the same models.

    TOW isn’t like that as there will be a much wider range of armies played.

    It’s possible there will be a launch box available for a limited time, of course.


    That's why the Empire civil war/time of three emperors was not the worst idea, you could have made it so, with 'generic' imperial forces and addon sprues for the factions. But alas, seems like that is coming much later, if at all.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526620.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526620.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Souleater wrote:
    But HH is primarily about Marines vs Marines. You can buy and split the box, or just by one for yourself and have by far and away the most used army in that game. The base models for both loyalist and traitor forces are the same models.
    Lord of the Rings? Necromunda? Kill Team?

    HH and AT are unique in that case and the only ones here. Yet I don't get the argument saying it makes sense for HH but not for TOW when GW actually said it will be a HH like box.
    what is the point, GW clarified that it will be a HH like box, just not a starter set]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526622.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526622.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     nathan2004 wrote:
    I'm disappointed because we have no idea when this game is coming out...we have an idea of base size, how the game will be supported, etc but no idea of when it will launch. Ideally within the next year but from what they've teased so far this game could still be 2-3 years out. For a game that's already been in development for at least 3 maybe 4 years, that's quite a long development cycle. My hope is they are trying to stick the landing with it and not just stringing us along for IP reasons like conspiracy theorists suggest.


    But -why- do they need 6 years to release a game?

    Kickstarter chumps operating out of their basement manages to make games in 6 months

    I think the real issue is that they have no game. And that IP matters somehow hence the very out of place card game about war in the old world last year or the one before. I think they also know it weakens the customer base of competitors like KoW and Conquest.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526624.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526624.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     triplegrim wrote:
     nathan2004 wrote:
    I'm disappointed because we have no idea when this game is coming out...we have an idea of base size, how the game will be supported, etc but no idea of when it will launch. Ideally within the next year but from what they've teased so far this game could still be 2-3 years out. For a game that's already been in development for at least 3 maybe 4 years, that's quite a long development cycle. My hope is they are trying to stick the landing with it and not just stringing us along for IP reasons like conspiracy theorists suggest.


    But -why- do they need 6 years to release a game?

    Kickstarter chumps operating out of their basement manages to make games in 6 months

    I think the real issue is that they have no game. And that IP matters somehow hence the very out of place card game about war in the old world last year or the one before. I think they also know it weakens the customer base of competitors like KoW and Conquest.



    It's wearing thin at this point, but Corona excuses at least part of that time frame.

    Kickstarter chumps get Cash up-front, are not running dozens of concurrent production lines, do usually not have to care about feeding all the corporate overhead at all times, have no shareholders/board of directors to please, many of them fail to actually complete the games they promised, and there are several very relevant horror-stories where the game gets made in 6 months, but it actually takes years to ship it out to backers afterwards, or the chumps renege on the deal, take more money for shipment, cancel rewards and so on and so on.

    Tl:dr - comparing extremely high-risk garage operations to an international corporation with worldwide distribution etc. is not exactly fair, in neither direction.

    As for your last paragraph: yes, that seems increasingly likely, looks like they're aiming for the 'minimal viable product' they can put out and still satisfy some legal definition.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526627.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526627.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! IMO).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526632.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526632.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     triplegrim wrote:


    Yes. The lack of a release date and 2 resin heroes is spitting on us.



    Logistically pretty difficult I would have thought. Is it one person from GW spitting on the entire hobby community? Is there a spittle department? Maybe that's why there's no release date yet for TOW, too busy trying to spit on all of us to produce miniatures.

    Shall we get the incense and sounds of falling rain soundtrack vol. II out in this thread? Good grief.


    I have to say for all of you stone cold cynics who dislike GW and yadda yadda, why did you get yourselves excited for this reveal and get pissy when you didn't get the answers you expected?

    GW said right at the start that this was going to be years away and boy were they right on the money. This whole project is a slow burner with everything else going on, it's still comparatively a small development team working on it and I'm still fairly comfortable they will deliver. The new minis they showed prove to me they have the right aesthetic for WFB. I am not keen on the possiblity of a lot of resin (the material of the devil) but the fact that there will be metal minis is interesting.

    Overall, good reveal for me, old models going back into production is excellent news and a steady increase in new ones over time as the game develops is exactly what I wanted from this.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526642.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526642.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Olthannon wrote:


    GW said right at the start that this was going to be years away and boy were they right on the money. This whole project is a slow burner with everything else going on, it's still comparatively a small development team working on it and I'm still fairly comfortable they will deliver. The new minis they showed prove to me they have the right aesthetic for WFB. I am not keen on the possiblity of a lot of resin (the material of the devil) but the fact that there will be metal minis is interesting.



    The move to metal is interesting for a couple of reasons, it implies that they plan on keeping or even expanding their existing metal facilities and inhouse know-how for the forseeable future, which is interesting in itself. The cynic in me suspects it has to do with tightening environmental regulations in the UK ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526644.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526644.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! more like Finecast being finally out, old stuff returns in metal and new stuff made in classic resin

    triplegrim wrote:But -why- do they need 6 years to release a game?
    Kickstarter chumps operating out of their basement manages to make games in 6 months

    Gimgamgoo wrote:I find it odd that in 3 years, a multimillion pound company still hasn't managed to release a game they announced 3 years ago. A game that it has written 8 times already. It should be perfect by now.
    Kickstarter companies manage more than a few maps and a few figures in the time GW have had, on a fraction of the money GW have.

    Because those companies want to make a game and need to launch it fast because otherwise people want their money back, tell KS that is not delivering and the company will be gone soon after

    like doing nothing for years but an article once in a while to prevent people from wandering off is marketing, and GW does not need to do more. People rather wait 6 years for something than starting a non GW game as long as there hope that it will finally be there

    why is GW not doing it faster? because they don't need to, they don't even need to deliver anything but just give a hind and people invest money and time into something that may never come (like any other company asking for different base size to play an existing game would see a shitstorm and people happily re-basing models for a promise)

    so why should they try harder, because otherwise people start playing Kings of War?
    Paymaster Games wrote:It is way to soon for the 8th edition comparison. The designers are likely young and were likely told to start with the models of 8th edition. IE the easiest models for them to put on the shelves with out much effort.
    Once again this is way to soon to start shooting this down. Yes it is starting to take shape, but as of now we have no idea what that shape is yet.

    By now I am pretty sure the whole thing started of as a joke and they were surprised by the reactions and needed to come up with something
    It sill looks like that GW thinks that no one is really interested in the IP, and Curse City fits in there as well (thought it will take years to sell the produced number of boxes and not minutes, with no backup plan and a panic reaction) with not expecting that there is huge interest for the setting

    Not that there is doom upcoming, but everything shows that GW underestimates the demand and at the same time repeats the mistakes of the past (no full range-refresh on release of an army), which will lead to the same results
    and if we get a "not a starter set" that they think will last years and is sold within minutes, there will be a problem

    Mentlegen324 wrote:It really does seem odd that some of the first big things we saw were Kislev and it was talked about for a while, we were told that Kislev and Cathay were designed for TOW and they even made rules, only to now say "Oh, actually that's a very long way away".

    So in order to hype up this project, they showed something that isn't relevant to the actual launch / core of it.

    this is what lot of people said back than, they showed the stuff because they needed to show something and TWWH came in handy with new art never seen before
    and it is easy to put a new label on artworks and write nice text on how this was made with the old world in mind (yeah well, it is a PC game in that setting of course it was made with Warhammer in mind and rules were made so that the designers of the PC game have something to work with)

     Olthannon wrote:
    I have to say for all of you stone cold cynics who dislike GW and yadda yadda, why did you get yourselves excited for this reveal and get pissy when you didn't get the answers you expected?
    the hope that GW learns from mistakes and not repeating them
    in addition, how bad of a presentation can you make were the main information that should have been on the slides need to come via Twitter an hour later]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526653.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526653.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    I think a lot of players would have been happy having the setting put back with “And we won’t blow it up, and continue from there.”

    Army books could cover a few army’s considering GWs price for them.
    Orcs and goblins already like it.
    GW being GW so will probably be a massive success and GW will be surprised and unprepared and stuff it up.

    Is it a for old players and won’t break it, or get new players in? I don’t know anymore. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526657.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526657.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Apple fox wrote:
    Feels like management has no idea what to do with the project.

    I think a lot of players would have been happy having the setting put back with “And we won’t blow it up, and continue from there.”



    the problem is doing that means blowing up AoS

    GW has wound up with two fantasy lines that share a timeline (albeit rather loosely) and a model line (very strongly) and a theme - fantasy.

    It is tricky to balance because they are the same firm there's a chance that they end up with one seriously doing well and the other doing ok to not well at all.

    GW has old customers who want Old World; GW has new and old customers who want AoS.



    Ignoring lore and story, the models and games are what matters most to GW because those are were they make their money.
    In the end both might live happily side by side. It might be Old World does ok for a time, but ends up everyone just using them for AoS models and GW just ends up adding them in; or perhaps there's a massive swing back and AoS all but dies off.

    Only time will tell. One good thing is that, in theory, if one game blazes ahead nad the other dies, GW can just roll them back together again. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526684.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526684.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Overread wrote:
    Apple fox wrote:
    Feels like management has no idea what to do with the project.

    I think a lot of players would have been happy having the setting put back with “And we won’t blow it up, and continue from there.”


    GW has old customers who want Old World; GW has new and old customers who want AoS.


    And new people who are interested in TOW/WHFB because of the video games. It would be absurd for them not to capitalize on that, but they don't seem to be. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526696.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526696.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Tsagualsa wrote:
     Olthannon wrote:


    GW said right at the start that this was going to be years away and boy were they right on the money. This whole project is a slow burner with everything else going on, it's still comparatively a small development team working on it and I'm still fairly comfortable they will deliver. The new minis they showed prove to me they have the right aesthetic for WFB. I am not keen on the possiblity of a lot of resin (the material of the devil) but the fact that there will be metal minis is interesting.



    The move to metal is interesting for a couple of reasons, it implies that they plan on keeping or even expanding their existing metal facilities and inhouse know-how for the forseeable future, which is interesting in itself. The cynic in me suspects it has to do with tightening environmental regulations in the UK


    Or just they have all they need to do metal models right now so rather than redo metals in other material keep doing metal.

    One could say they learned finecast wasn't popular so rather than turn metal to finecast they keep metal.

    They don't need to expand. They already have it.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526702.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526702.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Olthannon wrote:
     triplegrim wrote:


    Yes. The lack of a release date and 2 resin heroes is spitting on us.



    Logistically pretty difficult I would have thought. Is it one person from GW spitting on the entire hobby community? Is there a spittle department? Maybe that's why there's no release date yet for TOW, too busy trying to spit on all of us to produce miniatures.

    Shall we get the incense and sounds of falling rain soundtrack vol. II out in this thread? Good grief.


    I have to say for all of you stone cold cynics who dislike GW and yadda yadda, why did you get yourselves excited for this reveal and get pissy when you didn't get the answers you expected?

    GW said right at the start that this was going to be years away and boy were they right on the money. This whole project is a slow burner with everything else going on, it's still comparatively a small development team working on it and I'm still fairly comfortable they will deliver. The new minis they showed prove to me they have the right aesthetic for WFB. I am not keen on the possiblity of a lot of resin (the material of the devil) but the fact that there will be metal minis is interesting.

    Overall, good reveal for me, old models going back into production is excellent news and a steady increase in new ones over time as the game develops is exactly what I wanted from this.


    Oh how snide you are. Real clever.

    I think they have falsely advertised that they have a game when they do not. This is a fair thing to be disappointed at. Even the announcement at Warhammer Fest was just more of the same.

    And I think it is clear they mostly did it as a stunt to try to keep the third edition of KoW from gaining steam or at best as a comarketing campaign towards TWWH or something. No way they actually will release something the next 24 months.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526705.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526705.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Newsflash: you aren't special snowflake that decides do they have game or not. You can keep repeating it but that just makes you repetual liar ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526707.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526707.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    tneva82 wrote:
    You keep saying they have　no game.
    Newsflash: you aren't special snowflake that decides do they have game or not. You can keep repeating it but that just makes you repetual liar
    so you are claiming they have one?
    can you proof it?
    and if they have one, why no release date, or preview, or what style?
    they don't even know what base sizes the new game will be using except for "some models will be on larger bases", which mean they don't say something, or they don't have something to say.

    by all we have seen, heard and read, they don't have a game yet
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526722.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526722.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Overread wrote:
    Apple fox wrote:
    Feels like management has no idea what to do with the project.

    I think a lot of players would have been happy having the setting put back with “And we won’t blow it up, and continue from there.”



    the problem is doing that means blowing up AoS

    GW has wound up with two fantasy lines that share a timeline (albeit rather loosely) and a model line (very strongly) and a theme - fantasy.

    It is tricky to balance because they are the same firm there's a chance that they end up with one seriously doing well and the other doing ok to not well at all.

    GW has old customers who want Old World; GW has new and old customers who want AoS.



    Ignoring lore and story, the models and games are what matters most to GW because those are were they make their money.
    In the end both might live happily side by side. It might be Old World does ok for a time, but ends up everyone just using them for AoS models and GW just ends up adding them in; or perhaps there's a massive swing back and AoS all but dies off.

    Only time will tell. One good thing is that, in theory, if one game blazes ahead nad the other dies, GW can just roll them back together again.


    Alternative history is a popular sub genre for both fantasy and sci-fi, it’s not even hard concept to sell.

    If they do set it earlier, then it already highly risks altered history anyway if they find it’s a success and they need to work stuff in.
    But maybe that’s been squished now, better to clean it up and have a vision to work from than what it feels we are getting now.
    Another mess that GW will hopefully fix.

    It would probably help AoS if they where to alternative history from that point as well. Since that setting still feels like they trying to work out what the hell they doing with it. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526724.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526724.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Overread wrote:
    the problem is doing that means blowing up AoS


    This isn't a time travel paradox, WFB being a functionally separate setting has no bearing on AoS.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526729.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526729.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     His Master's Voice wrote:
     Overread wrote:
    the problem is doing that means blowing up AoS


    This isn't a time travel paradox, WFB being a functionally separate setting has no bearing on AoS.


    Aye but I meant more in a product focus aspect rather than lore/story wise.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Apple fox wrote:
     Overread wrote:
    Apple fox wrote:
    Feels like management has no idea what to do with the project.

    I think a lot of players would have been happy having the setting put back with “And we won’t blow it up, and continue from there.”



    the problem is doing that means blowing up AoS

    GW has wound up with two fantasy lines that share a timeline (albeit rather loosely) and a model line (very strongly) and a theme - fantasy.

    It is tricky to balance because they are the same firm there's a chance that they end up with one seriously doing well and the other doing ok to not well at all.

    GW has old customers who want Old World; GW has new and old customers who want AoS.



    Ignoring lore and story, the models and games are what matters most to GW because those are were they make their money.
    In the end both might live happily side by side. It might be Old World does ok for a time, but ends up everyone just using them for AoS models and GW just ends up adding them in; or perhaps there's a massive swing back and AoS all but dies off.

    Only time will tell. One good thing is that, in theory, if one game blazes ahead nad the other dies, GW can just roll them back together again.


    Alternative history is a popular sub genre for both fantasy and sci-fi, it’s not even hard concept to sell.

    If they do set it earlier, then it already highly risks altered history anyway if they find it’s a success and they need to work stuff in.
    But maybe that’s been squished now, better to clean it up and have a vision to work from than what it feels we are getting now.
    Another mess that GW will hopefully fix.

    It would probably help AoS if they where to alternative history from that point as well. Since that setting still feels like they trying to work out what the hell they doing with it.


    The biggest help would be if GW used the same bases on both game lines and just had one game with freeform movement and another with movement trays. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526737.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526737.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Overread wrote:
    Aye but I meant more in a product focus aspect rather than lore/story wise


    I've seen this sentiment expressed before, but GW doesn't seem to have any issues supporting both 40k and HH. I'm not convinced there's any real threat of un-focusing their fantasy offerings here.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526751.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526751.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Tyel wrote:
    I'm quite negative after this. Maybe as some people seem to be arguing it was a realistic tonic.

    But ultimately if TOW is going to be models from 10-30 years ago (maybe some newer AoS on square bases, who knows), with a few Finecast characters and perhaps the odd new plastic kit, I'm just not interested.

    Roughly half the TOW/WHFB factions already have brand new plastic ranges:
    - Lizardmen (just now)
    - Chaos
    - Daemons
    - Goblins
    - Skaven
    - Ogres
    - Vampires

    And probably a couple more I'm forgetting about.
    Then you also have all those units that could fit in old factions, like part of the Sylvaneth range, part of the Daughters of Khaine, ...

    Bretonnia and TK were nuked, but then even the factions which had no refresh in AoS (Dwarves, High Elves, Empire (yet), ...) still have some 8th ed WHFB minis sold in AoS.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526752.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526752.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW is in turn seemingly unsure on what they are going to give us.

    I get the feeling some people just want the game and the old mini's back. In regards to Warhammer, you've somehow gone to bed and woken up in an alternate 2014~ where they've announced a new edition rather than End Times.

    I can sort of get that - and I was in that camp for a while. Unfortunately though its been the best part of a decade and that matters outside the garages of immortal grognards. I just feel increasingly disconnected from the models all those years back. Sure, when GW release the rules I'm going to give them a go. But I can't see myself starting a new army that's mosty ancient kits. I can't see many people doing that.

    Which will mean sales will be low and it won't be a success. When they start talking about "a whole range of resurrected and revitalised miniatures" in resin and metal it just doesn't feel like a serious modern release. Its just made to order writ-large.

    As an Edit - I think it depends on how old is old. Some minis hold up. A lot don't. Even some of the 8th edition plastics are over 10 years old now - and will be older still by the time TOW is actually out. 7th edition is 15+ years old. 6th edition can be pushing 20. Saying minis are old enough to drink used to be a criticism of GW not refreshing them, not a motivation to get hold of them. If you've got that mostly 6th edition army and never got one unit then this is great news for you. But I can't see that attracted new people in.

    People can "what about AoS" - but the issue is still there. GW keep wanting to lure me into say a Flesh Eater Courts army. I like the fluff - I don't really mind the models (although they are a bit samey). But basic ghouls are from 2008 and they look it. Do I really want GW to do an HD version of the kit at twice the price for half the minis? Not really - but it is putting me off. Giant Pig model looked cool. Are basic Black Orcs still okay? I guess its an okay kit - especially in a world where you don't have to worry about them ranking up. But... eh. I'm not convinced you'd start this.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526770.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526770.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! their core infantry and main range is still 8th edition or older]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526789.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526789.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    As an aside, wouldn't the new VC look like giants next to older models from the range and/or human troops?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526799.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526799.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Overread wrote:
    Apple fox wrote:
    Feels like management has no idea what to do with the project.

    I think a lot of players would have been happy having the setting put back with “And we won’t blow it up, and continue from there.”



    the problem is doing that means blowing up AoS


    No, it doesn't. Fantasy has had multiple timelines before, the most prominent being The Enemy Within from WHFRP 1st Ed. which ended with Karl Franz dead and a new emperor on the throne. Tamurkhan was originally meant to be an alternate timeline as well.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526822.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526822.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! It worth noting that they want release 10th edition 40k in the upcomming months, if you where in there shoes would jeopordise the sales of that game with another, which is also loved dearly?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526829.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526829.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! 40k terribly convincing. Yes, of course GW wants the current focus on 10th ed 40k, but normally they seem happy to release a ton of stuff for the same system or setting back to back or almost back to back with little time for wallets to recover. We wouldn't expect The Old World before November. That's a lot of time to buy into 40k and still build up funds for The Old World. Compared to a lot of other GW releases anyway. Never mind that both Marines and Tyranids are as far removed from existing Fantasy factions as it gets, it's sci-fi versus fantasy, skirmish versus rank and file. You wouldn't expect the same audience to be interested. Some overlap, sure. But not to such a degree that 40k sales should take a dip if everyone planning on buying into The Old World held back on 40k.

    More likely it's down to one of two things. Old World isn't a progression of something already up for sale, so GW really doesn't want to step out of their very narrow pre-release window for disseminating worthwhile information. We usually get marketing for things that are no more than three months out, but tangible information on the gaming side as well as release dates don't usually come even that far out. GW likes its secrets and is mortally afraid of 3rd parties getting any heads up on new things so as to get maximum sales out of everything before 3rd party alternatives pop up. It's enough for GW to forego any semblance of marketing and give us, well, exactly what we got.

    The other thing is that with the probable Epic teaser, this year's Specialist game is Epic and The Old World simply isn't happening this year. That's plenty of reason for GW to tell us nothing because the release is still too far off. All we get is previews of things that are safe to show this far out. We know what a Bretonnian knight or a Tomb King look like, so they'll show them. We, and 3rd party manufacturers, have no concrete idea what base sizes GW intends to use, so they keep silent on it.

    We all know GW likes to advertise their previews as the best thing ever and what to make of that claim. But in the cases of Adepticon and Warhammer Fest, we also know that these two events are the ones where GW likes to drop big announcements. I suspect being disappointed by the GW previews this time around has a lot to do with actually being able to believe this to be the time GW might genuinely drop big news. Turns out not to be the case for The Old World, but the hope was not completely unfounded.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526863.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526863.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Aenar wrote:
    Tyel wrote:
    I'm quite negative after this. Maybe as some people seem to be arguing it was a realistic tonic.

    But ultimately if TOW is going to be models from 10-30 years ago (maybe some newer AoS on square bases, who knows), with a few Finecast characters and perhaps the odd new plastic kit, I'm just not interested.

    Roughly half the TOW/WHFB factions already have brand new plastic ranges:
    - Lizardmen (just now)
    - Chaos
    - Daemons
    - Goblins
    - Skaven
    - Ogres
    - Vampires

    And probably a couple more I'm forgetting about.
    Then you also have all those units that could fit in old factions, like part of the Sylvaneth range, part of the Daughters of Khaine, ...

    Bretonnia and TK were nuked, but then even the factions which had no refresh in AoS (Dwarves, High Elves, Empire (yet), ...) still have some 8th ed WHFB minis sold in AoS.


    Skaven and Ogres have brand new plastic ranges do they? ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526916.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526916.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    Tsagualsa wrote:
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    So far, there hasn't been much said about TOW that I find surprising, it's basically all "I told you so" levels of what I expected.

    Actually I do find it surprising that there's no starter set, though from what I have seen/heard it sounds kind of like GW is launching TOW in 2 phases - phase 1 is core rules and legacy rules/models, phase 2 will come after which is focusing on the time of three emperors narrative. That phase 2 is expected out later, and I bet THAT is when a starter with new plastics will drop.


    Maybe there's something to the rumours about reprints for Island of Blood and Battle for Skull Pass - these are pure plastic products, so they could crank them out without any S&H problems, and they're very popular boxes from what i gather.


    I'll do backflips if they reprint Island of Blood at a reasonable price.


    Hold your horses there, we ARE talking about GW... ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526957.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526957.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! WHFB, but IIRC all they got during the entirety of AoS was about 2 plastic heroes and 2 Underworlds gangs each...?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526963.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526963.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Overread wrote:
    Apple fox wrote:
    Feels like management has no idea what to do with the project.

    I think a lot of players would have been happy having the setting put back with “And we won’t blow it up, and continue from there.”



    the problem is doing that means blowing up AoS


    No it doesn't, any more than they needed to blow up WFB to do AoS. They did that because they thought they could get all the WFB players to jump straight into AoS. Instead, they could have made AoS a game about some sort of mythic past and gone from there, but they didn't. So now, they're (apparently) going to do TOW in the past of the WFB history, so that they can have both games concurrently, no need to blow up AoS.

    There are very few situations of this sort where you can only have one thing or the other, and not both.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526981.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11526981.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW has a history of not releasing new information about other projects when a bigger release is about to hit the shelves. Allot of you are reading to much into this.

    I understand that we want all of the information now. Hell I would like to see the ravaging hoards get you by lists for TOW even if I had no context to the rules so I can start painting and basing my army. But they are not going to do that. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527001.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527001.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Overread wrote:
    Apple fox wrote:
    Feels like management has no idea what to do with the project.

    I think a lot of players would have been happy having the setting put back with “And we won’t blow it up, and continue from there.”

    the problem is doing that means blowing up AoS

    "Problem" seems to be doing a lot of unwarranted heavy lifting there, Overread.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527003.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527003.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    tneva82 wrote:
    You keep saying they have　no game.

    Newsflash: you aren't special snowflake that decides do they have game or not. You can keep repeating it but that just makes you repetual liar


    Ok boss.

    2 resin models and some retro drawings. What do they have?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527006.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527006.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     triplegrim wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
    You keep saying they have　no game.

    Newsflash: you aren't special snowflake that decides do they have game or not. You can keep repeating it but that just makes you repetual liar


    Ok boss.

    2 resin models and some retro drawings. What do they have?


    Now don't be unfair, they also have half a regiment's worth of renders for Bretonian arms, and what amounts to a Tomb King accessory sprue. And a repainted studio army. That's not too bad for years of alleged development...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527007.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527007.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Tsagualsa wrote:
     triplegrim wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
    You keep saying they have　no game.

    Newsflash: you aren't special snowflake that decides do they have game or not. You can keep repeating it but that just makes you repetual liar


    Ok boss.

    2 resin models and some retro drawings. What do they have?


    Now don't be unfair, they also have half a regiment's worth of renders for Bretonian arms, and what amounts to a Tomb King accessory sprue. And a repainted studio army. That's not too bad for years of alleged development...


    Not mention that they have old moulds for the WHFB models. We know they are going use those.
    Also they stated that all 8th edition army is going to be useable, which can be an indicator, that they have rules for them. Which implies, that there is rulebook for the game.That another question, what condition are these books.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527022.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527022.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Paymaster Games wrote:
    Guys, GW has a history of not releasing new information about other projects when a bigger release is about to hit the shelves. Allot of you are reading to much into this.

    I understand that we want all of the information now. Hell I would like to see the ravaging hoards get you by lists for TOW even if I had no context to the rules so I can start painting and basing my army. But they are not going to do that.


    The solution there was to not put TOW on the list of previews for this event, and just sneak these two models in as a teaser or on WarCom.

    GW created the expectation they'd have something significant to say, and then just... didn't.

    Compare this to the Epic teaser, where people were expecting nothing, and got excited by a short video. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527024.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527024.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    I'm going to go about my business pretending this project doesn't exist until something more substantial is provided.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527025.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527025.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Tyel wrote:

    I can sort of get that - and I was in that camp for a while. Unfortunately though its been the best part of a decade and that matters outside the garages of immortal grognards. I just feel increasingly disconnected from the models all those years back. Sure, when GW release the rules I'm going to give them a go. But I can't see myself starting a new army that's mosty ancient kits. I can't see many people doing that.

    Why not? There seems to be this pervasive idea that GW's only customers are old men who have been playing since the late 90's/early aughts. That just cannot be true given the success and penetration of their product lines. In the time since WHFB many potential customers will have developed (in some cases off the back of the popularity of things like Total Warhammer and Vermintide). A bunch of these potential customers will be people who don't play any miniatures game, but maybe played the videogames when they were younger and now have adult money to spend on bs. What will matter most is whether the resurrected kits compare favourably to other kits that are available on the market. And on that note,

    Tyel wrote:
    As an Edit - I think it depends on how old is old. Some minis hold up. A lot don't. Even some of the 8th edition plastics are over 10 years old now - and will be older still by the time TOW is actually out. 7th edition is 15+ years old. 6th edition can be pushing 20. Saying minis are old enough to drink used to be a criticism of GW not refreshing them, not a motivation to get hold of them. If you've got that mostly 6th edition army and never got one unit then this is great news for you. But I can't see that attracted new people in

    The "years old" counter on miniatures does not matter. What matters is the "generation" counter. Most, if not all, of the 8th edition releases are broadly in the same generation as current GW miniatures. Those 10-year-old minis still look better than Mantic minis, Frostgrave minis, Reaper minis, etc.

    edit: Island of Blood is a perfect example of this. It came out ~13 years ago, but if it hadn't, and it released tomorrow, no tuned-in-to-GW individual on earth would think twice about it. Everything about its aesthetics and design accords with contemporary GW kits. It has jigsaw snapfits, monobuild dynamic action poses, sculpted magic and flames in the easy-to-break style, tactical rocks, etc.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527068.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527068.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Voss wrote:
    GW created the expectation they'd have something significant to say, and then just... didn't.


    This is the only thing I could find them mentioning it:

    There’s plenty more to come from development diaries in the future – and you may just hear even more at Warhammer Fest, which kicks off on Saturday the 29th of April.


    I think the rest is wishlisting by the community and rumormongers. My own particular disappointment is self-inflicted. Fantasy was my jam well before 40K and I just can't get into AoS.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527088.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527088.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    caladancid wrote:
    Skaven and Ogres have brand new plastic ranges do they?

    Skaven are still sold in AoS so they are considered a pretty decent range, it doesn't need a refresh to be sold under the TOW brand again.
    Ogres have plenty of new stuff compatible with TOW, I think they are called Ogors now.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527090.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527090.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527102.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527102.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Daedalus81 wrote:
    Voss wrote:
    GW created the expectation they'd have something significant to say, and then just... didn't.


    This is the only thing I could find them mentioning it:

    There’s plenty more to come from development diaries in the future – and you may just hear even more at Warhammer Fest, which kicks off on Saturday the 29th of April.


    I think the rest is wishlisting by the community and rumormongers. My own particular disappointment is self-inflicted. Fantasy was my jam well before 40K and I just can't get into AoS.



    This...I'm going to Alamo GT this week, Kansas City open first week of June, and Nova in August/September. Playing 40k at all these but would muchhhhhh rather be playing TOW from a comp perspective. Hence I was hoping for more substantial info so I could start mapping out my tourneys for Q4 2023 and Q1 2024.

    I do wonder now if the cosplay announcement is set to coincide with the release of TOW. I think I saw Spring 2024 as when that product line would launch, is it meant to drop alongside TOW?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527104.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527104.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Aenar wrote:
    caladancid wrote:
    Skaven and Ogres have brand new plastic ranges do they?

    Skaven are still sold in AoS so they are considered a pretty decent range, it doesn't need a refresh to be sold under the TOW brand again.
    Ogres have plenty of new stuff compatible with TOW, I think they are called Ogors now.

    I think it's a travesty that they're still selling some of those janky old Skaven models to people who don't know any better.

    Skaven feel a bit like Eldar, where part of the range is updated and great, and then part -- the Aspects/Clan units -- are gak.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527115.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527115.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527119.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527119.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Paymaster Games wrote:
    It is way to soon for the 8th edition comparison. The designers are likely young and were likely told to start with the models of 8th edition. IE the easiest models for them to put on the shelves with out much effort.

    Once again this is way to soon to start shooting this down. Yes it is starting to take shape, but as of now we have no idea what that shape is yet.


    I'm not so much comparing it to 8th as much as suspecting that the way they've talked about TOW recently, it's going to end up as 8.5 rather than an actual new game/new edition.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527158.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527158.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    My main interest is in the lore, which was never going to be good. The setting was deliberately written to be a dead end. The miniatures were always going to be too expensive, but a flood of great plastics would have tempted me and filled me with regret at missing out. Now I’ll have few regrets.


    Every update leads to a renewed interest in the old lore, the good lore, as well as a spike in interest for new minis, third party if necessary. And there has never been a better time for GW to keep rubbing our faces in their inadequacies. One can buy 3D prints for each of these armies for a fraction of GW prices, and feel less guilty every update. The third party plastics market is in its golden age. Are they all GW quality? Maybe not, but they’re available and fine any time one decides to stop holding out for that perfect 10 that’ll never happen.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527176.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527176.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     streetsamurai wrote:
    The tomb king is a really nice model, but it being resin does seems to imply that as i feared, this will be a low investment affaire


    I find this complaint just odd. It's a specialist game, that's what they do for them, resin was to be expected. Necromunda and Horus Heresy both get resin miniatures all the time. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527190.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527190.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
    This is bittersweet for me.

    My main interest is in the lore, which was never going to be good. The setting was deliberately written to be a dead end. The miniatures were always going to be too expensive, but a flood of great plastics would have tempted me and filled me with regret at missing out. Now I’ll have few regrets.


    Every update leads to a renewed interest in the old lore, the good lore, as well as a spike in interest for new minis, third party if necessary. And there has never been a better time for GW to keep rubbing our faces in their inadequacies. One can buy 3D prints for each of these armies for a fraction of GW prices, and feel less guilty every update. The third party plastics market is in its golden age. Are they all GW quality? Maybe not, but they’re available and fine any time one decides to stop holding out for that perfect 10 that’ll never happen.


    Well C7 and to some extent Total War do alot more than I suspect GW will]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527193.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527193.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     cole1114 wrote:
     Paymaster Games wrote:
    It is way to soon for the 8th edition comparison. The designers are likely young and were likely told to start with the models of 8th edition. IE the easiest models for them to put on the shelves with out much effort.

    Once again this is way to soon to start shooting this down. Yes it is starting to take shape, but as of now we have no idea what that shape is yet.


    I'm not so much comparing it to 8th as much as suspecting that the way they've talked about TOW recently, it's going to end up as 8.5 rather than an actual new game/new edition.


    I am going to have faith that 8th edition is a distant memory. The main core rules for WHFB have not changed much since third edition, little tweeks here and there, but roughly the same. I really think the sticky wicket would be army composition and the magic systems. Those have changed with every edition (except 4/5 editions that shared army books), with the most balanced edition being 6th.GW said this will be a completely new edition that takes the best elements from previous editions. I have been burned by GW before, like most of you. I really do believe that GW has learned from the failure of 8th edition and will give us the edition we are looking for. Hey after the Old World is released and is complete trash, i have no problem eating crow on this one.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527201.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527201.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Paymaster Games wrote:
    Hey after the Old World is released and is complete trash, i have no problem eating crow on this one.


    Good thing is in that case we can just revert to whatever edition we've been playing before ToW. At this point every community has likely figured out what they want from the game, so getting bad rules is not the end of the world.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527204.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527204.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527209.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527209.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Daedalus81 wrote:
    Voss wrote:
    GW created the expectation they'd have something significant to say, and then just... didn't.


    This is the only thing I could find them mentioning it:

    There’s plenty more to come from development diaries in the future – and you may just hear even more at Warhammer Fest, which kicks off on Saturday the 29th of April.


    I think the rest is wishlisting by the community and rumormongers. My own particular disappointment is self-inflicted. Fantasy was my jam well before 40K and I just can't get into AoS.


    It could also be that GW announced this 3 years ago and it's not unreasonable to expect them to have something to tell.

    Why did they announce this so far in advance?
    From outside the GW bubble it looks like they're trying to string along people's attention.

    Apparently there are still people who would rather wait for what GW gives them than try games outside of GW.
    GW best give those people a reason to keep waiting instead of wandering off and finding out there's a big wide world of wargaming where you can set your own terms on your hobby.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527277.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527277.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     DarkBlack wrote:
    Daedalus81 wrote:
    Voss wrote:
    GW created the expectation they'd have something significant to say, and then just... didn't.


    This is the only thing I could find them mentioning it:

    There’s plenty more to come from development diaries in the future – and you may just hear even more at Warhammer Fest, which kicks off on Saturday the 29th of April.


    I think the rest is wishlisting by the community and rumormongers. My own particular disappointment is self-inflicted. Fantasy was my jam well before 40K and I just can't get into AoS.


    It could also be that GW announced this 3 years ago and it's not unreasonable to expect them to have something to tell.

    Why did they announce this so far in advance?
    From outside the GW bubble it looks like they're trying to string along people's attention.

    Apparently there are still people who would rather wait for what GW gives them than try games outside of GW.
    GW best give those people a reason to keep waiting instead of wandering off and finding out there's a big wide world of wargaming where you can set your own terms on your hobby.


    I do not know about the gaming clubs where you are, but in nearly every store/club in my area plays a GW game after warmachine/hoards died. So If i want to go out and play a game, do a campaign, or compete in a tournament i have to play a GW game. So i would like to play a game that i want to play at the local store. That is what i am looking forward too.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527284.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527284.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Paymaster Games wrote:

    I do not know about the gaming clubs where you are, but in nearly every store/club in my area plays a GW game after warmachine/hoards died. So If i want to go out and play a game, do a campaign, or compete in a tournament i have to play a GW game. So i would like to play a game that i want to play at the local store. That is what i am looking forward too.

    I find it hard to believe that's really true. I don't doubt that it looks that way from your point of view, but I suspect there's wargaming that you don't know about going on closer than you think.
    Wargamers are not always good at advertising their presence, so it can be a challenge to find them though.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527288.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527288.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Daedalus81 wrote:
    Voss wrote:
    GW created the expectation they'd have something significant to say, and then just... didn't.


    This is the only thing I could find them mentioning it:

    There’s plenty more to come from development diaries in the future – and you may just hear even more at Warhammer Fest, which kicks off on Saturday the 29th of April.


    I think the rest is wishlisting by the community and rumormongers. My own particular disappointment is self-inflicted. Fantasy was my jam well before 40K and I just can't get into AoS.



    GW put it on the official schedule for the event, and put it up on their website. I'm not sure what level of proof you're going to demand if you don't think 'Hey we're absolutely going to talk about The Old World' is evidence that they planned and announced they were going to talk about the Old World.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Aenar wrote:
    caladancid wrote:
    Skaven and Ogres have brand new plastic ranges do they?

    Skaven are still sold in AoS so they are considered a pretty decent range, it doesn't need a refresh to be sold under the TOW brand again.
    Ogres have plenty of new stuff compatible with TOW, I think they are called Ogors now.


    Ogres are, barring a few (2?) characters (one of which is very bad), entirely the 8th edition range.
    Skaven still have old monkey skaven night runners from 5th or 6th edition, the fairly bad rat ogres/giant rats, plague monks and a lot of metal, particularly for Skryre stuff. They're still coasting on Isle of Blood era models and a few End Times things.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527297.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527297.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Paymaster Games wrote:
    I am hoping to play Warhammer in the stores again. It is hard to do when are using a dead version of the game. I really do hope that the Old World is going to be the game they told us it would be.


    Too bad you don't live close to Indiana; we've been hosting a 6th Edition play date every month and will be doing so for the foreseeable future.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Voss wrote:
     Daedalus81 wrote:
    Voss wrote:
    GW created the expectation they'd have something significant to say, and then just... didn't.


    This is the only thing I could find them mentioning it:

    There’s plenty more to come from development diaries in the future – and you may just hear even more at Warhammer Fest, which kicks off on Saturday the 29th of April.


    I think the rest is wishlisting by the community and rumormongers. My own particular disappointment is self-inflicted. Fantasy was my jam well before 40K and I just can't get into AoS.



    GW put it on the official schedule for the event, and put it up on their website. I'm not sure what level of proof you're going to demand if you don't think 'Hey we're absolutely going to talk about The Old World' is evidence that they planned and announced they were going to talk about the Old World.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Aenar wrote:
    caladancid wrote:
    Skaven and Ogres have brand new plastic ranges do they?

    Skaven are still sold in AoS so they are considered a pretty decent range, it doesn't need a refresh to be sold under the TOW brand again.
    Ogres have plenty of new stuff compatible with TOW, I think they are called Ogors now.


    Ogres are, barring a few (2?) characters (one of which is very bad), entirely the 8th edition range.
    Skaven still have old monkey skaven night runners from 5th or 6th edition, the fairly bad rat ogres/giant rats, plague monks and a lot of metal, particularly for Skryre stuff. They're still coasting on Isle of Blood era models and a few End Times things.


    Alright, I'll bite: what exactly is wrong with either the Rat Ogre or Plague Monk kits?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527312.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527312.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    everything, for 35€ (2 rat ogres):



    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527321.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527321.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    I mean, I expect it to have pivot joints and points of articulation like a toy with joint gaps that big...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527332.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527332.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527350.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527350.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     streetsamurai wrote:
    The tomb king is a really nice model, but it being resin does seems to imply that as i feared, this will be a low investment affaire


    All plastic was never on cards. You are going to get new resin as well as new plastic. Tough. Life is. Gw is for profit and not charity. Deal with it. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527358.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527358.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Voss wrote:


    GW put it on the official schedule for the event, and put it up on their website. I'm not sure what level of proof you're going to demand if you don't think 'Hey we're absolutely going to talk about The Old World' is evidence that they planned and announced they were going to talk about the Old World.


    Well, to be fair, they did so for LotR too, and that turned out to be a Seminar which literally consisted of the Sentence 'Our hands are tied and we can't tell you anything at the moment, but at least we have one display miniature to show you' and then some stale hype about that single display miniature. Total waste of time.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527360.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527360.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    As sculpts I guess they’re OK. They are a little plain and dull, but as they’re meant to be riddled with disease I would expect dynamic poses.

    The kit however? I have never owned a box without quite significant mould slippage. Not just prominent mould lines, but actually slippage. Like the mould never actually lined up properly.

    No it’s not too much of a challenge to fix, but it’s well beyond the realms of something I should have to fix.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527361.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527361.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
    On the Plaguemonks?

    As sculpts I guess they’re OK. They are a little plain and dull, but as they’re meant to be riddled with disease I would expect dynamic poses.

    The kit however? I have never owned a box without quite significant mould slippage. Not just prominent mould lines, but actually slippage. Like the mould never actually lined up properly.

    No it’s not too much of a challenge to fix, but it’s well beyond the realms of something I should have to fix.


    The kit is now what, twenty years old? IIRC it came out with the 6th edition book in 2002, or was that with the Lustria Campaign Book in 2004? Either way it's a little over or a little under two decades. And i'd imagine that it's among those that see rather more wear and tear, the unit was quite popular in several incarnations of the game.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527364.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527364.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    tneva82 wrote:
     streetsamurai wrote:
    The tomb king is a really nice model, but it being resin does seems to imply that as i feared, this will be a low investment affaire


    All plastic was never on cards. You are going to get new resin as well as new plastic. Tough. Life is. Gw is for profit and not charity. Deal with it.


    Then maybe they should stop selling their resin trash. If you read the comments on videos about new model releases you'll see about 90% of people will just not pay for resin no matter how great the model is.
    I want a fleet of ridge/iron crawlers for Necromunda but once they revealed the upgrade was a FW kit it was dead in the water.
    They lose thousands if not hundreds of thousands in sales limiting items to resin.
    GW is for profit but they're not exactly about selling as many models as possible. We're that the case they would actually be ready for their release dates and would do proper preorders.
    Perhaps the non-resin crowd is move vocal that people willing to work with inferior garbage. So you just don't hear people talking about their resin kits very often.
    No one plays Necromunda in my area because of the resin upgrades. No one plays anything other than plastic HH models. No one really plays titans... They might own one or two (or in one guys case an entire friggin Legio) but they don't actually use them.
    Resin needs to be removed from all of GWs products ASAP.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527394.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527394.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW that does not actually really do quality resin. (or affordable one for that matter).


    Automatically Appended Next Post:


    My main concern is availability and affordability. If the game is expected to actually grow enough and be relevant again, then GW would need to price even more humanly than they do with plastic HH and potentially lower the normal game size points.

    Old world already was a massive time sink, often requireing far more models than the other GW alternatives. Being told that you'd need multiple boxes to field a unit is already an off putting issue for many.

    It was annoying with chaos warriors already and those atleast brought some points meat to the table, skaven etc were just borderline unafordable, but worse it got with certain "new" end WHFB released units like the twohanders for the empire.
    Then there were availability issues, GW store exclusive key units like bestigores, chaos knights, etc. And that is were logistically we are already seeing issues with HH, 40k and AoS and then we get ToW ontop which has far more diffrent sets for diffrent factions due to them not sharing a core skeleton (compared to HH of course) and it's at this point were we also supposedly get epic that i get really sceptical.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527397.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527397.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Uptonius wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
     streetsamurai wrote:
    The tomb king is a really nice model, but it being resin does seems to imply that as i feared, this will be a low investment affaire


    All plastic was never on cards. You are going to get new resin as well as new plastic. Tough. Life is. Gw is for profit and not charity. Deal with it.


    Then maybe they should stop selling their resin trash. If you read the comments on videos about new model releases you'll see about 90% of people will just not pay for resin no matter how great the model is.
    I want a fleet of ridge/iron crawlers for Necromunda but once they revealed the upgrade was a FW kit it was dead in the water.
    They lose thousands if not hundreds of thousands in sales limiting items to resin.
    GW is for profit but they're not exactly about selling as many models as possible. We're that the case they would actually be ready for their release dates and would do proper preorders.
    Perhaps the non-resin crowd is move vocal that people willing to work with inferior garbage. So you just don't hear people talking about their resin kits very often.
    No one plays Necromunda in my area because of the resin upgrades. No one plays anything other than plastic HH models. No one really plays titans... They might own one or two (or in one guys case an entire friggin Legio) but they don't actually use them.
    Resin needs to be removed from all of GWs products ASAP.


    So you want plastic instead?

    Then you get no model. It's not resin or plastic. It's resin or nothing.

    You are person with zero business sense and would bankrupt gw in 6 months. Which seeing how big and profitable gw is requires impressive level of incompency.

    What people like you forget is gw is in for profit, not destroying company for people's dreams.

    Oh and your beloved plastic is reason why characters cost triple and amount of variety went down. No profit making multiple plastic commisar/ork weirdboy etc.

    Alsy you plastic faith believers just keep shouting your slogans forgetting truth of right material for right job. Just because idea of using super glue is too hard ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527400.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527400.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW plastic sometimes), there's a sound reason they use it on the kits they do. Simply put, if they didn't have resin via Forge World for elements of the Specialist Games ranges, those models just wouldn't get made; the sales volume isn't there to justify it. The playerbase can (and probably do...) spend any amount of time arguing which sets do justify the plastic treatment over others but it isn't going to change their approach (unless, perhaps, if there's an unexpected level of interest in the game as happened with Blood Bowl in 2016).

    Until we get a more tangible idea of what the range is going to look like then I'm reserving any sort of judgement. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527407.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527407.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    tneva82 wrote:
    Uptonius wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
     streetsamurai wrote:
    The tomb king is a really nice model, but it being resin does seems to imply that as i feared, this will be a low investment affaire


    All plastic was never on cards. You are going to get new resin as well as new plastic. Tough. Life is. Gw is for profit and not charity. Deal with it.


    Then maybe they should stop selling their resin trash. If you read the comments on videos about new model releases you'll see about 90% of people will just not pay for resin no matter how great the model is.
    I want a fleet of ridge/iron crawlers for Necromunda but once they revealed the upgrade was a FW kit it was dead in the water.
    They lose thousands if not hundreds of thousands in sales limiting items to resin.
    GW is for profit but they're not exactly about selling as many models as possible. We're that the case they would actually be ready for their release dates and would do proper preorders.
    Perhaps the non-resin crowd is move vocal that people willing to work with inferior garbage. So you just don't hear people talking about their resin kits very often.
    No one plays Necromunda in my area because of the resin upgrades. No one plays anything other than plastic HH models. No one really plays titans... They might own one or two (or in one guys case an entire friggin Legio) but they don't actually use them.
    Resin needs to be removed from all of GWs products ASAP.


    So you want plastic instead?

    Then you get no model. It's not resin or plastic. It's resin or nothing.

    You are person with zero business sense and would bankrupt gw in 6 months. Which seeing how big and profitable gw is requires impressive level of incompency.

    What people like you forget is gw is in for profit, not destroying company for people's dreams.

    Oh and your beloved plastic is reason why characters cost triple and amount of variety went down. No profit making multiple plastic commisar/ork weirdboy etc.

    Alsy you plastic faith believers just keep shouting your slogans forgetting truth of right material for right job. Just because idea of using super glue is too hard


    So GW can make like ten plastic event exclusive, store anniversary and so forth models yearly, that'll probably sell five total units combined, but will instantly go bankrupt if they put that effort into the launch for one of their most famous and anticipated games?

    Makes sense to me!]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527417.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527417.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Voss wrote:

    Ogres are, barring a few (2?) characters (one of which is very bad), entirely the 8th edition range.
    Skaven still have old monkey skaven night runners from 5th or 6th edition, the fairly bad rat ogres/giant rats, plague monks and a lot of metal, particularly for Skryre stuff. They're still coasting on Isle of Blood era models and a few End Times things.


    This seems an odd stance considering the Bulls, Gnoblars, Ironguts, and Leadbelchers are also from 6th ed Fantasy like the Plague Monk and Rat Ogres.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527442.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527442.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    FIamingUndeadRoman wrote:
    So GW can make like ten plastic event exclusive, store anniversary and so forth models yearly, that'll probably sell five total units combined, but will instantly go bankrupt if they put that effort into the launch for one of their most famous and anticipated games?

    Makes sense to me!


    Yeah. I don't know the economics of plastic vs resin - but the claim of "GW just can't do that" would hold up better if GW weren't doing exactly that elsewhere.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527458.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527458.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Tyel wrote:
    FIamingUndeadRoman wrote:
    So GW can make like ten plastic event exclusive, store anniversary and so forth models yearly, that'll probably sell five total units combined, but will instantly go bankrupt if they put that effort into the launch for one of their most famous and anticipated games?

    Makes sense to me!


    Yeah. I don't know the economics of plastic vs resin - but the claim of "GW just can't do that" would hold up better if GW weren't doing exactly that elsewhere.


    It's a fair point ("five total units" hyperbole aside), the sticking point here is that we don't know what new stuff actually is coming for The Old World in plastic yet. Foot Knights seem a safe bet (probably what those renders of sword-arms were for) and 'something' for Tomb Kings at the very least. I'd imagine there's at least a bit more. I expect most new character models to be Forge World resins. Essentially what we see for Horus Heresy; that game just gets more plastic characters (and models in general) than other Specialist Games (coz Space Marines...).

    That they're also going to be ramping up production on older plastic kits is also going to be a significant factor in the production capacity allotted to the project (arguably still sensible since it means there can be stuff available without having to wait on design/tooling). Whether those individual kits are good or desirable is a different question. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527471.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527471.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    tneva82 wrote:
     streetsamurai wrote:
    The tomb king is a really nice model, but it being resin does seems to imply that as i feared, this will be a low investment affaire


    All plastic was never on cards. You are going to get new resin as well as new plastic. Tough. Life is. Gw is for profit and not charity. Deal with it.

    GW has to earn that profit though.
    If they want to put out something low effort anyone is free to find it disappointing and not buy it.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527500.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527500.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! FAQ that gives the hint they really do seem to be very careful at best with the future of this Old World project line.

    I do understand why they keep us in the dark for the base size change (they could have least told us for cavalry for example), but it's still frustrating to have had that answer. Fair enough, it's so that we're not sure what to print new miniatures for cheaper / rebase our old miniatures in advance.

    Well...if there is no "real starter set" and they're focusing on 2 factions first then release gradually the rest, I guess it makes it more relevant to have an "early release".

    I was a bit bumped with the previews being resin miniatures, I must say. But yeah, my expectations certainly got lower now.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527559.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527559.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527564.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527564.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Uptonius wrote:

    Spoiler:
    tneva82 wrote:
     streetsamurai wrote:
    The tomb king is a really nice model, but it being resin does seems to imply that as i feared, this will be a low investment affaire


    All plastic was never on cards. You are going to get new resin as well as new plastic. Tough. Life is. Gw is for profit and not charity. Deal with it.


    Then maybe they should stop selling their resin trash. If you read the comments on videos about new model releases you'll see about 90% of people will just not pay for resin no matter how great the model is.
    I want a fleet of ridge/iron crawlers for Necromunda but once they revealed the upgrade was a FW kit it was dead in the water.
    They lose thousands if not hundreds of thousands in sales limiting items to resin.

    Resin needs to be removed from all of GWs products ASAP.


    Wholly agreed. It's a waste every time they do it, honestly. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527581.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527581.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Platuan4th wrote:
    Voss wrote:

    Ogres are, barring a few (2?) characters (one of which is very bad), entirely the 8th edition range.
    Skaven still have old monkey skaven night runners from 5th or 6th edition, the fairly bad rat ogres/giant rats, plague monks and a lot of metal, particularly for Skryre stuff. They're still coasting on Isle of Blood era models and a few End Times things.


    This seems an odd stance considering the Bulls, Gnoblars, Ironguts, and Leadbelchers are also from 6th ed Fantasy like the Plague Monk and Rat Ogres.


    It wasn't really a stance, more informational, given the context was the current AoS ranges being backported to TOW. My phrasing may have been confusing, but ogres are essentially the same army they were at the end of WFB. The skaven range is cut up into very distinct production eras.

    But in general, the plastic ogre models are much better than the old skaven plastics.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527605.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527605.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    FIamingUndeadRoman wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
    Uptonius wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
     streetsamurai wrote:
    The tomb king is a really nice model, but it being resin does seems to imply that as i feared, this will be a low investment affaire


    All plastic was never on cards. You are going to get new resin as well as new plastic. Tough. Life is. Gw is for profit and not charity. Deal with it.


    Then maybe they should stop selling their resin trash. If you read the comments on videos about new model releases you'll see about 90% of people will just not pay for resin no matter how great the model is.
    I want a fleet of ridge/iron crawlers for Necromunda but once they revealed the upgrade was a FW kit it was dead in the water.
    They lose thousands if not hundreds of thousands in sales limiting items to resin.
    GW is for profit but they're not exactly about selling as many models as possible. We're that the case they would actually be ready for their release dates and would do proper preorders.
    Perhaps the non-resin crowd is move vocal that people willing to work with inferior garbage. So you just don't hear people talking about their resin kits very often.
    No one plays Necromunda in my area because of the resin upgrades. No one plays anything other than plastic HH models. No one really plays titans... They might own one or two (or in one guys case an entire friggin Legio) but they don't actually use them.
    Resin needs to be removed from all of GWs products ASAP.


    So you want plastic instead?

    Then you get no model. It's not resin or plastic. It's resin or nothing.

    You are person with zero business sense and would bankrupt gw in 6 months. Which seeing how big and profitable gw is requires impressive level of incompency.

    What people like you forget is gw is in for profit, not destroying company for people's dreams.

    Oh and your beloved plastic is reason why characters cost triple and amount of variety went down. No profit making multiple plastic commisar/ork weirdboy etc.

    Alsy you plastic faith believers just keep shouting your slogans forgetting truth of right material for right job. Just because idea of using super glue is too hard


    So GW can make like ten plastic event exclusive, store anniversary and so forth models yearly, that'll probably sell five total units combined, but will instantly go bankrupt if they put that effort into the launch for one of their most famous and anticipated games?

    Makes sense to me!


    Special edition models that they no doubt sell quite a large amount of due to it being a limited time thing, that also exists to get people into a GW store and spending money on other things while there, and times up limited space because they're temporary/made to order, seems like a bit of a unfair comparison compared to just a general low-volume selling miniature. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527621.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527621.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    tneva82 wrote:
     streetsamurai wrote:
    The tomb king is a really nice model, but it being resin does seems to imply that as i feared, this will be a low investment affaire


    All plastic was never on cards. You are going to get new resin as well as new plastic. Tough. Life is. Gw is for profit and not charity. Deal with it.


    Once again, you seems overly concerned about what i think and how i spend my money. And as i said before, i have no intention of engaging in a discussion with you, so you cant stop trying "triggering" me]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527627.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527627.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527634.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527634.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     kodos wrote:
    and what is the reason a Khemri Army Box with all new model cannot be such a limited release?


    Nothing, really. But here, these new miniatures are clearly characters so it's true they're not intended to be bought by dozens for a same player. More likely one or two. Since they seem "chilly" on this project so far, I can see why they don't see the interest to put the same investment than, say, AoS's choice of making generic characters plastic.

    I'd prefer to build a plastic hero character for sure...but on the other end, GW's current resin isn't as bad as it was. It's not "crap" per se, but I totally understand not enjoying building them.

    Anyway, GW will always have the final word as for the material they decide to use for their Old World miniature range, and we customers will get to see if that's worth it or not.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527653.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527653.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     kodos wrote:
    and what is the reason a Khemri Army Box with all new model cannot be such a limited release?


    Because even a variety of small cha4acter sprues take up far less tooling and casting time on the machines than even a single unit using full size frames, much less multiple units. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527654.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527654.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! It's genuinely disheartening how many people seem to want to do away with resin, most don't seem to realise how vital it is, both in terms of the higher level of fine detail that it holds and also the fact that it allows GW/FW to make models that otherwise wouldn't be given the production green light due to cost.
    Uptonius wrote:
    Then maybe they should stop selling their resin trash.

    Oh dear. Describing something that you don't like as "trash" is never a good look
    Uptonius wrote:
    If you read the comments on videos about new model releases you'll see about 90% of people will just not pay for resin no matter how great the model is.

    This is a ridiculous statement. Your hyperbole is off the scale.
    Uptonius wrote:
    I want a fleet of ridge/iron crawlers for Necromunda but once they revealed the upgrade was a FW kit it was dead in the water.

    I bought two Iron Crawlers, I absolutely love the model. Refusing to buy a model because of the material it's made in really doesn't make sense to me.
    Uptonius wrote:
    They lose thousands if not hundreds of thousands in sales limiting items to resin.

    It's not possible to know whether or not this is true. Regardless, you don't understand the factors involved when GW decide whether or not to cast a model in resin.
    Uptonius wrote:
    GW is for profit but they're not exactly about selling as many models as possible. We're that the case they would actually be ready for their release dates and would do proper preorders.

    Of course they want to sell as many models as they can, you just don't understand the decision making and logistics involved.
    Uptonius wrote:
    Perhaps the non-resin crowd is move vocal that people willing to work with inferior garbage. So you just don't hear people talking about their resin kits very often.


    It's hard to take you seriously when you refer to mediums other than HiPs plastic as "garbage" or "trash". Resin is better than plastic when it comes to holding fine detail. This is a fact. I, and others like me, will happily do the extra work required with resin models because when it comes to fine detail it is superior to plastic.
    Uptonius wrote:
    No one plays Necromunda in my area because of the resin upgrades.

    That's sad, Necromunda is a fantastic game that I've only recently started playing. The resin upgrades are the cherry on top of a delicious cake. You and your colleagues are missing out.
    Uptonius wrote:
    No one plays anything other than plastic HH models. No one really plays titans... They might own one or two (or in one guys case an entire friggin Legio) but they don't actually use them.
    Resin needs to be removed from all of GWs products ASAP.

    Titans are rarely seen on tabletops, mostly because they are very expensive, as well as being a massive investment in hobby time. If there were no resin titans there would be no titans, full stop. Most resin models produced by FW/GW are resin because it wouldn't make financial sense to produce them in plastic, mostly due to the larger cost for the molds.

    It would be nice if people had a basic understanding of the factors involved in model production before they have an anti-resin rant...one day, maybe?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527678.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527678.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! not-Tomb Kings army for $125. I went in on the kickstarter, and the minis I received were good quality, mostly one or two pieces, and superior in casting to any Forgeworld resins I bought in the 2000’s/early 2010’s. They’re a good height, although the heavily armed HQ character is a but hunched over, and could use a tactical rock base for a more imposing height.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527682.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527682.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Theophony wrote:
    They aren't going to give away base sizes till after the game shows up because they don't want to lose out on any possible sales. If they were to tell you base sizes now, even if they are totally new sizes, Etsy and the like would have them up for sale in bulk before we even got screen grabs.


    Made a mold for 30mm squares yesterday and will cut a 30 X 60 cav mold next week. Will have them injection molded just in case that is the correct size.

    Already have 32 X 50 for flames of war but doubt they will use that size. And if they go to 32mm square will knock them out as well.

    So your prediction is quite accurate.

    I have a lot of minis to rebase.......................]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527743.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527743.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
    If you’re going to have to buy resin, you might as well get some value for your dollar. Check out this not-Tomb Kings army for $125. I went in on the kickstarter, and the minis I received were good quality, mostly one or two pieces, and superior in casting to any Forgeworld resins I bought in the 2000’s/early 2010’s. They’re a good height, although the heavily armed HQ character is a but hunched over, and could use a tactical rock base for a more imposing height.


    Maybe it's the paint job, but they look pretty bad. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527744.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527744.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Undead_Love-Machine wrote:

    It's genuinely disheartening how many people seem to want to do away with resin, most don't seem to realise how vital it is, both in terms of the higher level of fine detail that it holds and also the fact that it allows GW/FW to make models that otherwise wouldn't be given the production green light due to cost.
    Uptonius wrote:
    Then maybe they should stop selling their resin trash.

    Oh dear. Describing something that you don't like as "trash" is never a good look
    Uptonius wrote:
    If you read the comments on videos about new model releases you'll see about 90% of people will just not pay for resin no matter how great the model is.

    This is a ridiculous statement. Your hyperbole is off the scale.
    Uptonius wrote:
    I want a fleet of ridge/iron crawlers for Necromunda but once they revealed the upgrade was a FW kit it was dead in the water.

    I bought two Iron Crawlers, I absolutely love the model. Refusing to buy a model because of the material it's made in really doesn't make sense to me.
    Uptonius wrote:
    They lose thousands if not hundreds of thousands in sales limiting items to resin.

    It's not possible to know whether or not this is true. Regardless, you don't understand the factors involved when GW decide whether or not to cast a model in resin.
    Uptonius wrote:
    GW is for profit but they're not exactly about selling as many models as possible. We're that the case they would actually be ready for their release dates and would do proper preorders.

    Of course they want to sell as many models as they can, you just don't understand the decision making and logistics involved.
    Uptonius wrote:
    Perhaps the non-resin crowd is move vocal that people willing to work with inferior garbage. So you just don't hear people talking about their resin kits very often.


    It's hard to take you seriously when you refer to mediums other than HiPs plastic as "garbage" or "trash". Resin is better than plastic when it comes to holding fine detail. This is a fact. I, and others like me, will happily do the extra work required with resin models because when it comes to fine detail it is superior to plastic.
    Uptonius wrote:
    No one plays Necromunda in my area because of the resin upgrades.

    That's sad, Necromunda is a fantastic game that I've only recently started playing. The resin upgrades are the cherry on top of a delicious cake. You and your colleagues are missing out.
    Uptonius wrote:
    No one plays anything other than plastic HH models. No one really plays titans... They might own one or two (or in one guys case an entire friggin Legio) but they don't actually use them.
    Resin needs to be removed from all of GWs products ASAP.

    Titans are rarely seen on tabletops, mostly because they are very expensive, as well as being a massive investment in hobby time. If there were no resin titans there would be no titans, full stop. Most resin models produced by FW/GW are resin because it wouldn't make financial sense to produce them in plastic, mostly due to the larger cost for the molds.

    It would be nice if people had a basic understanding of the factors involved in model production before they have an anti-resin rant...one day, maybe?


    You wouldn’t hear any complaints about resin if GW made high quality resin models. Instead, it’s a crapshoot whether you will get the infamous sweating resin or a corkscrewed sword (exaggeration but only a bit haha), or a clean model with great detail. People pay money for premium products, they actually expect premium products. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527760.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527760.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    I mean, I own a 3D printer, so I obviously will be able to print way more for the equivalent I buy in material than any company may offer as "finished" products. But that's not counting the amount of work needed to cure, build, remove print lines, and so on.

    Yeah, there are equivalent of Tombs Kings of various quality and various prices, but in the end it's just a question of what the customer really want to achieve and obtain. Is it just for collection ? For playing ? For playing in official tournaments ? Depending of the answer, it shuts down some doors and open others.

    For example, if I want to play in official Old World GW tournaments, I'm obviously not investing my time and money in buying obvious "copies / proxies" or using the old base size. Because I know it will close options to me if I do it.

    It's a Hobby that is time consuming, after all. There's no value if it doesn't fit your purpose for it. That's why money isn't the only factor here.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527761.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527761.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    caladancid wrote:


    You wouldn’t hear any complaints about resin if GW made high quality resin models. Instead, it’s a crapshoot whether you will get the infamous sweating resin or a corkscrewed sword (exaggeration but only a bit haha), or a clean model with great detail. People pay money for premium products, they actually expect premium products.


    You left out 'warped and brittle,' which was distressingly common in the handful of FW bits I've bought. The chunky ork totem pole was fine (well, after a lot of fuzz cleanup), as were some of the small tau bits. The AI flyers were decidedly not.

    But yeah, I'm less interested in GW's bottom line and more in good models. So FW resin (not as bad as finecast) doesn't terribly impress me.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527767.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527767.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Voss wrote:
    caladancid wrote:


    You wouldn’t hear any complaints about resin if GW made high quality resin models. Instead, it’s a crapshoot whether you will get the infamous sweating resin or a corkscrewed sword (exaggeration but only a bit haha), or a clean model with great detail. People pay money for premium products, they actually expect premium products.


    You left out 'warped and brittle,' which was distressingly common in the handful of FW bits I've bought. The chunky ork totem pole was fine (well, after a lot of fuzz cleanup), as were some of the small tau bits. The AI flyers were decidedly not.

    But yeah, I'm less interested in GW's bottom line and more in good models. So FW resin (not as bad as finecast) doesn't terribly impress me.


    The FW items that you mentioned are all at least ten years old IIRC, it sounds like your experience with FW resin was quite a few years ago? The quality of FW resin these days is much, much better than it was back then.

    None of the FW models that I have purchased in the past few years has had any problems, apart from the often-mentioned, godforsakenly stubborn mold-release agent.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527780.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527780.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    bobthe4th wrote:
     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
    If you’re going to have to buy resin, you might as well get some value for your dollar. Check out this not-Tomb Kings army for $125. I went in on the kickstarter, and the minis I received were good quality, mostly one or two pieces, and superior in casting to any Forgeworld resins I bought in the 2000’s/early 2010’s. They’re a good height, although the heavily armed HQ character is a but hunched over, and could use a tactical rock base for a more imposing height.


    Maybe it's the paint job, but they look pretty bad.


    It might be the paint job or the quality of the pictures. In real life, the sculpts are solid, superior to the plastic basic skeletons, and cheaper to boot. They are not Forgeworld quality sculpts, but their castings are better. Games Workshop charges far, far above market conventions for resin miniatures, and their sculpts are not worth the vastly extra cost. If you need the brand name to take in the brand store, that’s understandable if unfortunate. If not, I don’t see why you would want to choose expensive and outdated skeletons for the core of your army if you don’t need to.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527880.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527880.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Anyway the resins look good and with no major flaws. I would prefer that GW cast these kinds of models in metal. GW are quite good at casting in metal and it would not bet that expensive since they already set up for mass production in metal and would likely be cheaper for the long run.

    As to the tomb king weapons we saw earlier, I think it may go to a updated 4 edition mummy unit. All of the weapon looked like they went to some kind of foot tomb prince or king, but with the release of the new resin tomb king model and the fact Bretonnia is getting foot knights this kind of makes sence and fits into taking the best from each edition to create a new edition.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527905.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527905.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Paymaster Games wrote:
    I think lost kingdom makes some fantastic not tomb kings, bit it would require a high 3d printer to get the best out of it.

    Anyway the resins look good and with no major flaws. I would prefer that GW cast these kinds of models in metal. GW are quite good at casting in metal and it would not bet that expensive since they already set up for mass production in metal and would likely be cheaper for the long run.

    As to the tomb king weapons we saw earlier, I think it may go to a updated 4 edition mummy unit. All of the weapon looked like they went to some kind of foot tomb prince or king, but with the release of the new resin tomb king model and the fact Bretonnia is getting foot knights this kind of makes sence and fits into taking the best from each edition to create a new edition.

    I though GW sold off their metal fabrication equipment years ago, I thought it might even have gone to Infinity. It was right before they switched everything to finecrap, I could be wrong about where it went, but the costs of metal and the expansion of their plastics production meant things got cheaper and faster to make in plastics.

    Lost kingdom make fantastic .stl files. I love the Chaos Dwarves I have from them.


    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527909.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527909.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Theophony wrote:

    I though GW sold off their metal fabrication equipment years ago, I thought it might even have gone to Infinity. It was right before they switched everything to finecrap, I could be wrong about where it went, but the costs of metal and the expansion of their plastics production meant things got cheaper and faster to make in plastics.


    GW are still casting part of the LotR range in metal, so they have some capacity.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527911.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527911.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527914.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527914.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Paymaster Games wrote:
    Fine cast is a casting medium that uses the same spin casting equipment that is used in metal casting. So yes they have the equipment on hand.

    I was under the impression that Finecast was a miscasting medium...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527965.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527965.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Baragash wrote:
     Theophony wrote:

    I though GW sold off their metal fabrication equipment years ago, I thought it might even have gone to Infinity. It was right before they switched everything to finecrap, I could be wrong about where it went, but the costs of metal and the expansion of their plastics production meant things got cheaper and faster to make in plastics.


    GW are still casting part of the LotR range in metal, so they have some capacity.


    They sell some metal skaven too. And ikit claw can not be cast in anything else than metal I've heard. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527997.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11527997.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW could have sold a chunk of their metal equipment and kept only a portion of it for reduced production capacity. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528067.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528067.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528247.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528247.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/03/40-years-of-warhammer-deathmaster-snikch-is-the-deadliest-skaven-of-all-time/

    Love the old art work, so much fun I had playing against Skaven - the game would swing wildly sometimes one way or the other but it was always a good time.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528253.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528253.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW army many decades ago. I've always loved the older sculpts above the newer ones. Just started printing out a Skaven Bloodbowl team this week and love the models as they are a throwback to this style.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528274.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528274.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Paymaster Games wrote:
    I am going to have faith that 8th edition is a distant memory.


    The Eighth Edition For Life forum might have something to say about that.

    No, it won't have any impact on what GW does, but just like 7th and 8th and AoS didn't turn 6th into a distant memory, I don't expect TOW to completely erase 8th either.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
    On the Plaguemonks?

    As sculpts I guess they’re OK. They are a little plain and dull, but as they’re meant to be riddled with disease I would expect dynamic poses.

    The kit however? I have never owned a box without quite significant mould slippage. Not just prominent mould lines, but actually slippage. Like the mould never actually lined up properly.

    No it’s not too much of a challenge to fix, but it’s well beyond the realms of something I should have to fix.


    Hunh. I got a couple boxes a long time ago, and I don't recall the mould lines being all that bad. Makes me wonder if you got a bad batch run by someone who didn't really know what they were doing.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    tneva82 wrote:
    So you want plastic instead?

    Then you get no model. It's not resin or plastic. It's resin or nothing.


    No, it's GW plastic... or I get plastic from another company. GW resin is trash. It's always been trash, and I don't see them being smart enough for it to STOP being trash anytime soon.

    And let's face it. There are plenty of competitors out there making 'not-GW-compatible minis, honest!' that in the end, GW is quite expendable from a gaming standpoint. So long as my FLGS is not a GW store, GW minis are totally irrelevant.

    You are person with zero business sense and would bankrupt gw in 6 months. Which seeing how big and profitable gw is requires impressive level of incompency.

    What people like you forget is gw is in for profit, not destroying company for people's dreams.


    We'll see what their resin sales are like, compared to what their similar plastic kids of the past. That will tell the tale far better than any amount of name-calling.

    Oh and your beloved plastic is reason why characters cost triple and amount of variety went down. No profit making multiple plastic commisar/ork weirdboy etc.


    The only argument you've made so far that makes any sense. But then, I tend to covert my characters from other kits, so Offical GW Character Minis (TM) are a distinctly small percentage of my character models so it holds little weight for me.

    Alsy you plastic faith believers just keep shouting your slogans forgetting truth of right material for right job. Just because idea of using super glue is too hard


    Ever glue metal minis? Compared to that, resin is modeling on easy mode. Been there, done that.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528321.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528321.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528355.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528355.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    MaxT wrote:
    You must think I’m a freak, I use superglue on plastic models


    There’s a difference.

    A difference between *thinking* someone is a freak. And *knowing* someone is a freak. ?

    My good fella, all jokes apart? Embracing the polystyrene cement. It. Will. Change. Your. Life.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528356.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528356.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    MaxT wrote:
    You must think I’m a freak, I use superglue on plastic models


    Yeah. That’s the modeling equivalent of assembling a jigsaw puzzle with the picture side down.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528357.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528357.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    MaxT wrote:
    You must think I’m a freak, I use superglue on plastic models


    So do I, but that's for a rather specific reason: I tend to fiddle around with poses, convert and re-use models and parts a lot, and super glue allows me to "break" them apart relatively easily if I ever happen to change my mind.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528368.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528368.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528395.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528395.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Switched to superglue entirely and had a much easier time of it.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528397.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528397.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
    MaxT wrote:
    You must think I’m a freak, I use superglue on plastic models


    Yeah. That’s the modeling equivalent of assembling a jigsaw puzzle with the picture side down.


    Or you want to keep resale value bit higher.

    Or you paint subassemblies at which point you need to scratch paint away for proper connection.

    Right tool at right time.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528399.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528399.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528455.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528455.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     BertBert wrote:
    MaxT wrote:
    You must think I’m a freak, I use superglue on plastic models


    So do I, but that's for a rather specific reason: I tend to fiddle around with poses, convert and re-use models and parts a lot, and super glue allows me to "break" them apart relatively easily if I ever happen to change my mind.


    Surely that’s what blutak is for?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528464.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528464.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


    Surely that’s what blutak is for?


    Depending on the complexity, it's usually pinning (if needed), super glue and then green stuff to support and clean up gaps and transitions. Plastic cement doesn't help when various materials are involved.
    Then there's also the matter of rebasing, swapping to a different weapon after a rules change or needing a specific bit for a different miniature. Super glue bonds are just more flexible in that regard.

    However, I can totally understand people just wanting their miniatures to be welded together, it's just a different approach. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528480.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528480.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Voss wrote:
    My experience (back when I used both for different materials or mixed materials) was plastic glue was far more (and unnecessarily) messy, and tended to get worse in the bottle over time.

    Switched to superglue entirely and had a much easier time of it.


    There is nothing inherently messy about plastic glue/Polystyrene Cement. It sounds like you maybe had a batch of poor quality stuff?

    Tamiya poly cement is perfect for neat, non-messy work, it comes in a glass bottle with a small brush attached to the lid, amazing stuff.

    It doesn't get worse over time either, unless you leave the top off the bottle for a long lengthh of time.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528515.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528515.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Though I've also found the best way to clear it is to take the needle out and put it under a flame - eg a match or lighter. Just be sure to be holding the needle with tweezers or such (cause it will get hot) and to run the flame over the whole length and it will burn it out
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528533.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528533.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Overread wrote:
    I have found that any needle point applicators for plastic glue get very easily blocked when the glue part cures in the needle.

    Though I've also found the best way to clear it is to take the needle out and put it under a flame - eg a match or lighter. Just be sure to be holding the needle with tweezers or such (cause it will get hot) and to run the flame over the whole length and it will burn it out


    I like Tamiya bottles of plastic glue for this reason, as they have a little brush as part of the bottle cap that is always just sitting inside the glue, ready to be used.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528551.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528551.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Overread wrote:
    I have found that any needle point applicators for plastic glue get very easily blocked when the glue part cures in the needle.

    Though I've also found the best way to clear it is to take the needle out and put it under a flame - eg a match or lighter. Just be sure to be holding the needle with tweezers or such (cause it will get hot) and to run the flame over the whole length and it will burn it out


    Strip a twist tie. The wire inside is perfectly sized to fit inside the tube and prevents it from drying in the tube.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528559.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528559.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Platuan4th wrote:

    Strip a twist tie. The wire inside is perfectly sized to fit inside the tube and prevents it from drying in the tube.

    I needed this advice a long time ago, this would have helped immensely.
    I have a Tamiya bottle with a brush in the cap now though.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528572.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528572.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528585.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528585.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! AoS flourishes?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528591.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528591.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    MaxT wrote:
    You must think I’m a freak, I use superglue on plastic models


    Freaks, unite!

    Besides, I've had to disassemble some old minis for parts on occasion. It's way easier when you use superglue instead of plastic cement.

    And from my experience using plastic cement on aircraft and ship models, superglue sets WAY faster, allowing for much faster assembly. Much less chance of the glue dissolving and destroying detail as well.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528592.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528592.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528595.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528595.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     RustyNumber wrote:
    Is it cosplay stuff or just normal streetwear with some WFB/AoS flourishes?
    it is LARP stuff
    the company which got the license is a entry level larp and medieval reenactment supplier, or how the guys from the local group said "seeing more mediocre imperials coming"


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     nathan2004 wrote:
    You'll think the timeframe for when the cosplay stuff goes live will coincide with the release of TOW?
    no, there is a chance that something is coming because of the anniversary but GW does not really care what some 3rd party companies outside their bubble is doing]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528619.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528619.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     kodos wrote:
    no, there is a chance that something is coming because of the anniversary but GW does not really care what some 3rd party companies outside their bubble is doing


    They do care, but they have their own release calendar. If something is not ready to go, it's just not ready to go.

    With the Warhammer Fest previews being as they are, it's pretty much clear it will still take some time before it's out.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528634.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528634.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Sarouan wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    no, there is a chance that something is coming because of the anniversary but GW does not really care what some 3rd party companies outside their bubble is doing


    They do care, but they have their own release calendar. If something is not ready to go, it's just not ready to go.

    With the Warhammer Fest previews being as they are, it's pretty much clear it will still take some time before it's out.


    Yeah. They have -nothing- atm. Look for a 2025 release reastically. Maybe 2026.

    Or better. Learn 9th age and play now.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528650.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528650.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     triplegrim wrote:
    Sarouan wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    no, there is a chance that something is coming because of the anniversary but GW does not really care what some 3rd party companies outside their bubble is doing


    They do care, but they have their own release calendar. If something is not ready to go, it's just not ready to go.

    With the Warhammer Fest previews being as they are, it's pretty much clear it will still take some time before it's out.


    Yeah. They have -nothing- atm. Look for a 2025 release reastically. Maybe 2026.


    We don't know for sure, but I'm thinking there's going to be something tangible by the end of this year. How much? I'm not confident.

     triplegrim wrote:
    Or better. Learn 9th age and play now.


    OR they could learn to play a good game...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528665.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528665.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Just Tony wrote:

    We don't know for sure, but I'm thinking there's going to be something tangible by the end of this year. How much? I'm not confident.


    I'd love to, but even if they do, it will be limited to me. It's definitely not like Horus Heresy where, let's be honest, the main action is about marines fighting each other and thus can work with limited releases of new plastic boxes of marines since the core of the armies use the same equipment.

    With the Old World, all the armies are completely different. Sure, sub factions inside the same army do use a common ground, but the number of releases needed to "complete" an army even at its core is, to me, on a whole different scale than Horus Heresy.

    They'll clearly start with Bretonnians vs Tomb Kings, that's already 2 whole armies to release - even if they use same production for old kits, that's quite a workload for their production calendar. It seems doubtful they'll have room for that this year with the 10th edition of 40k coming and the rest for AoS.


     triplegrim wrote:
    Or better. Learn 9th age and play now.


    OR they could learn to play a good game...


    Battle V8 is good enough for me. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528678.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528678.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW said that the focus will be on the Old World. So faction wise you will have -

    Empire
    Bretonnia
    Tomb Kings (which is pretty far south)
    Vampire Counts
    Kislev
    Tilean City States/Dogs of War
    Wood elves
    Dwarfs
    Greenskins
    Chaos
    Skaven

    So based off of this, there would be 11 factions, with several sub-factions per main faction. For example, empire would have 4 sub-factions, Chaos would have a faction for each God and maybe Beastmen, and so on. I really think that when it comes down to it Forge World is going to play a much larger role in this edition of Warhammer then in the past if the develops in this direction. For example I do not think that GW will release new plastics for halflings or re-release the 4th edition metals, chances are FW will release a unit of resin halflings for this version of the game.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528895.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528895.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Just Tony wrote:
     triplegrim wrote:
    Or better. Learn 9th age and play now.


    OR they could learn to play a good game...

    One would think that someone with a geeky hobby like wargaming would know better than to be gakky about something someone enjoys.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528905.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528905.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Paymaster Games wrote:
    Well when you look at what GW said that the focus will be on the Old World. So faction wise you will have -

    Empire
    Bretonnia
    Tomb Kings (which is pretty far south)
    Vampire Counts
    Kislev
    Tilean City States/Dogs of War
    Wood elves
    Dwarfs
    Greenskins
    Chaos
    Skaven

    So based off of this, there would be 11 factions, with several sub-factions per main faction. For example, empire would have 4 sub-factions, Chaos would have a faction for each God and maybe Beastmen, and so on. I really think that when it comes down to it Forge World is going to play a much larger role in this edition of Warhammer then in the past if the develops in this direction. For example I do not think that GW will release new plastics for halflings or re-release the 4th edition metals, chances are FW will release a unit of resin halflings for this version of the game.


    So basicly everything exept dark and high elves, and lizardmen. Sonds like an unneccesary exclusion of those factions, especially since they have a great, and more or less compleat range of models.
    I would rather think they perhaps release rules for everything but start with a more juicy campaign with perhaps new models for some factions, then ad expansion campaigns over the years. Maybe start with a southern campaign doing bretonnians tomb kings, wood elves and skaven first.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528949.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528949.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     triplegrim wrote:
    Sarouan wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    no, there is a chance that something is coming because of the anniversary but GW does not really care what some 3rd party companies outside their bubble is doing


    They do care, but they have their own release calendar. If something is not ready to go, it's just not ready to go.

    With the Warhammer Fest previews being as they are, it's pretty much clear it will still take some time before it's out.


    Yeah. They have -nothing- atm. Look for a 2025 release reastically. Maybe 2026.

    Or better. Learn 9th age and play now.


    Oh gods no. The group on their website are THE most elitist, 'our way or the highway' group I've ever had the misfortune to run into. They chased fully half the 9th Age supporters clear off the site when T9A decided to become 'NotHammer' instead of 'NextHammer'.

    I stay off the T9A pages out of basic manners. But if you come out here peddling your wares, it's game on.

    To this day I still play 8th edition. No, it's not balanced like T9A. But at least the armies feel DIFFERENT from each other.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528955.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528955.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     DarkBlack wrote:
    Just Tony wrote:
     triplegrim wrote:
    Or better. Learn 9th age and play now.


    OR they could learn to play a good game...

    One would think that someone with a geeky hobby like wargaming would know better than to be gakky about something someone enjoys.


    I encounter this kind of thing all the time on this site, it's a real shame.

    I guess some people need to gak on other geeky stuff to feel better about the geeky gak that they like?

    Either way, it's not a good look.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528972.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528972.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528989.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11528989.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
    I encounter this kind of thing all the time on this site, it's a real shame.

    I guess some people need to gak on other geeky stuff to feel better about the geeky gak that they like?

    Either way, it's not a good look.

    It is a shame. Dakka is already quite negative, there's really no need to be gakky too.

    Vulcan wrote:
    Oh gods no. The group on their website are THE most elitist, 'our way or the highway' group I've ever had the misfortune to run into. They chased fully half the 9th Age supporters clear off the site when T9A decided to become 'NotHammer' instead of 'NextHammer'.

    I stay off the T9A pages out of basic manners. But if you come out here peddling your wares, it's game on.

    To this day I still play 8th edition. No, it's not balanced like T9A. But at least the armies feel DIFFERENT from each other.

    I wasn't keen from the beginning because they seemed to be about keeping the things that put me off playing WHFB (as opposed to KoW, which is about what I wanted from WHFB).
    It seemed like a great thing for people who wanted that kind of game though.

    That's a real shame regarding how it's run.

    Not sure what they're offering if not "NextHammer", but hopefully it's less vulnerable to becoming redundant when the actual "NextHammer" of TOW comes along]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529028.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529028.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Gert wrote:
    High Elves were represented on the map released ages ago and it was softly hinted that they'd be about at Fest when someone asked about them with a reference to said map.

    Yeah, basically everyone has an excuse to be involved even if the dark elves’ is just “mess with anything the other elves think is good and also capture fresh slaves” and the Lizardmen’s is the good ol’ “because the plaques say so” of yore. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529067.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529067.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Mr_Rose wrote:
    Yeah, basically everyone has an excuse to be involved even if the dark elves’ is just “mess with anything the other elves think is good and also capture fresh slaves” and the Lizardmen’s is the good ol’ “because the plaques say so” of yore.

    Sort of? Inevitably there will be factions with weaker reasons than others which is fine. For the High and Dark Elves, it's easier than the Lizardmen because the High Elves are that midway point between the Old and New Worlds where events in both can affect them, and as you said, the Dark Elves like to raid. For the Old World continent factions, it's all easier. The Empire and Bretonnia own big chunks of it, the Tomb Kings used to own all of it, the Wood Elves are all over the place, Orcs are Orcs, Dwarves hate Orcs and sometimes help various factions for grudges or debts, Chaos is Chaos and Skaven definitely don't exist.
    The Lizardmen are the black sheep where they either need a really good reason to be in the northern parts of the continent or have the weaksauce "Cos the Great Plan". The southern parts fighting various Tomb Kings, Orcs, and non-existent Ratmen are easier to deal with because at least there are environments where the species makes sense to be i.e. jungles and desert, which in turn makes it easier to say "Oh yeah an old Lizardmen temple is there".]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529117.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529117.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW included Araby as a faction it would be a lot easier to to explain Lizardmen in this setting. Another way that may make sense is that Marco Colombo returned from Lustria just before the Three Emperors Period and he could have brought back a artifact that would allow the Lizardmen to come to the Old World.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529124.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529124.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529131.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529131.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529167.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529167.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    DarkBlack wrote:
    Just Tony wrote:
     triplegrim wrote:
    Or better. Learn 9th age and play now.


    OR they could learn to play a good game...

    One would think that someone with a geeky hobby like wargaming would know better than to be gakky about something someone enjoys.


    Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
     DarkBlack wrote:
    Just Tony wrote:
     triplegrim wrote:
    Or better. Learn 9th age and play now.


    OR they could learn to play a good game...

    One would think that someone with a geeky hobby like wargaming would know better than to be gakky about something someone enjoys.


    I encounter this kind of thing all the time on this site, it's a real shame.

    I guess some people need to gak on other geeky stuff to feel better about the geeky gak that they like?

    Either way, it's not a good look.


    We've been inundated with "Play our thing, plebes!" for quite some time. Since the announcement of T9A or EEFL we were constantly remarked upon to just play AOS. When other retrogaming movement groups such as Oldhammer and Classichammer gained traction we were told to just play 8th/T9A/AOS. Hell, just last freaking month when hosting the Classichammer 6th Ed. open gaming day I was told to my face by an AOS player to just play AOS. It's infuriating to have people shove their preferences in your face as a "right way to play" sort of thing, or to infer that you're participating in the hobby "wrong" by liking what you like.

    If me responding with disdain at another post, ESPECIALLY one shilling a poorly constructed game, is considered "not a good look"? Then consider me officially not giving any sort of feth about your opinions regarding my emotional output.

    T9A took the good faith of the 8th Ed. community and used it in a bait and switch to shill their inferior home-brew rules instead of their homogenized "fixed" version of 8th's rules. Someone who detests 8th can even see that.




    As far as Lizardmen, High Elves, and Dark Elves having a reason to be there? We have proof that Vikings fought Eskimos with far less advanced travelling techniques than any of those WH races had. Why is this even a legitimate talking point?


    Are there any more big convention type substances coming up? I'm hoping for some clarification on how they'll handle covering all the armies. If we're going to get a Ravening Hordes substance or will it be like the 8th Ed. 40K Indexes.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529193.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529193.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! AoS is the current official Fantasy version, you have to play it no matter what and some people also talk like this with other games and the T9A community to some point is known to mock any other game for being inferior, or how only those who like to cheat play 6th and so on.
    Following the development of T9A it will be interesting how it goes on with TOW released

    For the "what factions are there" we have different information around.
    First is, everything in 8th will have rules for TOW and be playabel, than the game will see Army Books with the focus on the great war against chaos, hence those factions first
    They are not sure if all factions will get army book, and Lizardmen were named to be the ones that don't get old models back as the AoS ones can be used
    Bretonnia and Khemri were chosen for the release because they are iconic and not there in AoS, this must not be related the 2nd point and does not mean they are getting army books with the first wave, just that they will see new models with the first wave

    Could be that we see Rulebook+Index release with made to order and new stuff only for 2 armies, while the later release will be campaign+army books with a different focus

    all the information we go pretty much sounds like they don't know yet and that there is not much planned and/or it might depend on AoS releases. As they might need to wait for future AoS releases to check which armies get old models back and which ones are left out (hence all Elves out)

    PS: a very different idea if GW wants to make proper rules
    taking 6th as a base and the change to 25mm, having 4x4 as minimum size would still give the same width as the old 5 wide, while 6 files as seen in the preview could already be the horde formation (16 models being the defensive minimum, 12 or 18 the offensive minimum) which would help to reduce table space and number of models needed but still be compatible with old bases to a point (with the focus on unit width rather than single models fighting)
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529257.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529257.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! TBH. They just gave hints but they were so vague that it could mean anything. We just know bases are bigger, and I don't think it's related to a change in rules from the V8 but purely because it's "easier to put miniatures together". And I think it's really just that - which is a perfectly understandable stance, by the way, even if it's annoying for those having armies from V8 and before.

    About lizardmen, dark elves and high elves...it's just a question of releasing the armies. GW will clearly not release all the concerned miniatures at once, they will focus on one or two armies at a time. Given it's FW Specialist Games that'll be in charge of TOW...and given the slow pace of releases for the other games they take care of, even Horus Heresy...I sadly believe that it will be slow as hell as well for TOW. We still don't know what armies will exactly be having rules at the time of release (see HH, not everything was available at the start) and I'm not sure it's a guarantee they'll offer rules for everything not directly related to the Old World at first (lizardmen are in Lustria, dark elves in Naggaroth and high elves in Ulthuan).

    About T9A, it's better not to talk about it here. I'll just say that the ones behind the rules are old hardcore Warhammer Battle tournament players and they publicly said they could do a better job than GW about Battle's handling. So it's normal they have a very elitist approach and high esteem of their own game.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529299.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529299.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     DarkBlack wrote:

    Not sure what they're offering if not "NextHammer", but hopefully it's less vulnerable to becoming redundant when the actual "NextHammer" of TOW comes along


    They changed how many of the armies feel and play. Bretonnia became Equitaine... but the only good army builds were very infantry heavy. Skaven technology lost it's wacky swinginess. Stuff along those lines. All in a quest for perfect balance, which has left all the armies feeling very 'samey'. I'll grant them, the game is indeed more balanced. But that balance came at the cost of flavor.

    I find the improved balance does not bring enough to the table to counteract the loss of flavor of the armies.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Sarouan wrote:

    About T9A, it's better not to talk about it here. I'll just say that the ones behind the rules are old hardcore Warhammer Battle tournament players and they publicly said they could do a better job than GW about Battle's handling. So it's normal they have a very elitist approach and high esteem of their own game.


    They still using my solution to balancing DE Warlocks? Make spellcasting depend on the presence of a champion, and making the champion pay for caster levels?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529325.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529325.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Vulcan wrote:

    They still using my solution to balancing DE Warlocks? Make spellcasting depend on the presence of a champion, and making the champion pay for caster levels?


    I don't know, I stopped following their rules a long time ago when it was obvious they only care about the tournament aspect of the game. That's why the armies lost flavour...they completely ignored the other aspects of why people loved playing Battle for so long. It's a common mistake to focus on perfect balance above all in a game, and why these games have so many difficulties to draw new blood in their communities.

    But it's best not to go further about it here. It's the Old World we're talking about.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529354.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529354.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! Yeah, get back to TOW N&R now. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529366.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529366.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     nathan2004 wrote:
    Wait aren't Lizardmen already confirmed to be in the Old World...weren't they on one of the maps? What am I missing?


    Nope, there are no Lizardmen symbols or shields on any of the Old World Maps. I had to download and enlarge the Tomb King map to make sure.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    I am sure that a Ravaging Hoards incoming, but i do think that it will be released online like the 40K 10 Edition get you by lists.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529657.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529657.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     ingtaer wrote:
    Yeah, get back to TOW N&R now.


    Maybe we just need to lock this thread between GW announcements, to keep it on subject.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529832.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529832.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!


    I'm wondering what size the launch boxes will be. I don't think they can get away with the "16 models per box" thing they got going on right now, not for a mass fantasy battle system.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529843.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529843.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529873.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529873.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     kodos wrote:
    If we got one on release, which I doubt, it will likely be what we have seen, 2 infantry units, 1-2 cavalry units per side and the resin heroes.


    I can't see there being anything resin inside the box, it will be all plastic, surely?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529962.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529962.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    If we got one on release, which I doubt, it will likely be what we have seen, 2 infantry units, 1-2 cavalry units per side and the resin heroes.


    I can't see there being anything resin inside the box, it will be all plastic, surely?


    They already said that there won't be a 'Launch box' or 'Starter box', then backpedaled a bit and said that there will be some sort of 'start collecting' boxes or army boxes. It's not unreasonable that these won't be on the shelves at all, instead being effectively just bundle deals, and they could do them in any mix of materials they like.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529971.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529971.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Tsagualsa wrote:
     Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    If we got one on release, which I doubt, it will likely be what we have seen, 2 infantry units, 1-2 cavalry units per side and the resin heroes.


    I can't see there being anything resin inside the box, it will be all plastic, surely?


    They already said that there won't be a 'Launch box' or 'Starter box', then backpedaled a bit and said that there will be some sort of 'start collecting' boxes or army boxes. It's not unreasonable that these won't be on the shelves at all, instead being effectively just bundle deals, and they could do them in any mix of materials they like.


    That's not quite what they said, either. They said there won't be a "starter box" because they've got their own definition of what that means - something with a board, "get started" book etc. It won't be getting a "starter" set like Horus Heresy didn't, but that still got the "Age of Darkness" launch box. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529974.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529974.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Tsagualsa wrote:
     Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    If we got one on release, which I doubt, it will likely be what we have seen, 2 infantry units, 1-2 cavalry units per side and the resin heroes.


    I can't see there being anything resin inside the box, it will be all plastic, surely?


    They already said that there won't be a 'Launch box' or 'Starter box', then backpedaled a bit and said that there will be some sort of 'start collecting' boxes or army boxes. It's not unreasonable that these won't be on the shelves at all, instead being effectively just bundle deals, and they could do them in any mix of materials they like.


    Sure, they could do, but knowing GW anything included in these bundles will be plastic as they have bigger profit margins.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529975.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529975.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
    Tsagualsa wrote:
     Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    If we got one on release, which I doubt, it will likely be what we have seen, 2 infantry units, 1-2 cavalry units per side and the resin heroes.


    I can't see there being anything resin inside the box, it will be all plastic, surely?


    They already said that there won't be a 'Launch box' or 'Starter box', then backpedaled a bit and said that there will be some sort of 'start collecting' boxes or army boxes. It's not unreasonable that these won't be on the shelves at all, instead being effectively just bundle deals, and they could do them in any mix of materials they like.


    That's not quite what they said, either. They said there won't be a "starter box" because they've got their own definition of what that means - something with a board, "get started" book etc. It won't be getting a "starter" set like Horus Heresy didn't, but that still got the "Age of Darkness" launch box.


    Thanks for the correction (i mean it, it is not exactly easy to keep your head straight with their muddled and at times contradictory communication) - it seems a bit like they themselves are not entirely sure what form the release will take, or (and that possibility should not be discarded lightly) the Q&A presenters have not been provided that information at that level of detail and were mistaken themselves, and later needed to correct what they said.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529976.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529976.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Paymaster Games wrote:

    I am sure that a Ravaging Hoards incoming, but i do think that it will be released online like the 40K 10 Edition get you by lists.


    That's what I thought before the previews on Warhammer Fest. Now I wonder if it will not be restrained to a specific set of factions tied to the Old World in a first phase, then they'll gradually release more lists later like they did with Horus Heresy. And I'm not sure it will be available online for "free" in that case.

    They did say everything from Battle V8 will be playable, just not "when"...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529978.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11529978.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! and I see this is going the be more like a pre-order bundle with the regular products, which are the resin heroes and whatever is going to be released]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530031.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530031.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     kodos wrote:
    as they said there won't be a starter/launch ox for beginners, adding the resin heroes is not a problem is it is not the same target group as a pure plastic box
    and I see this is going the be more like a pre-order bundle with the regular products, which are the resin heroes and whatever is going to be released


    When have they done a launch box that included resin miniatures before? ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530034.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530034.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530035.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530035.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
    To my knowledge, never?


    Exactly. I don't see them suddenly doing that here when they haven't before. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530039.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530039.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    The same was done with Necromunda. After release it took them 1 year to release all 6 main gangs. For Horus Heresy 1 year after release Daemons will get their own rules. They just released pdf with rules for Militia.

    So dont bet on all rules at the start.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530041.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530041.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Glumy wrote:
    I wouldnt bet on Ravening Hordes at start. More likely they will release rules over 1-2 years for all armies one by one.

    The same was done with Necromunda. After release it took them 1 year to release all 6 main gangs. For Horus Heresy 1 year after release Daemons will get their own rules. They just released pdf with rules for Militia.

    So dont bet on all rules at the start.


    With Necromunda at launch, they sold the Gangs of the Underhive book, which was basic rules for all 6 main gangs. They don't sell it any more, but I've still got my copy. Also a Gangs of Legend pdf for free with even more basic-er stats.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530093.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530093.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
     Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
    To my knowledge, never?


    Exactly. I don't see them suddenly doing that here when they haven't before.


    I remember oce upon a time they did a huge "Khorne Daemonkin Warband" box that included the short lived finecast Bloodletter Herald (a really cool model exept for the casting material -you need to glue a coin to the base to prevent him from falling though )
    Otherwise, I dont think they done any boxes with resin characters.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530106.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530106.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530107.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530107.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! AoS release we had battleforces that contained finecast models.

    I don't expect to see that done for the old world though, new resin models are going to be a money spinner for GW as even people with old armies/model backlog stashes the size of mountain might still buy new models. I doubt we will see them 'discounted' in the first releases (if at all). ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530110.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530110.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW said they are not bring anything that is meant to be sold to new players

    boxes with other materials than plastic, as well as bundles without savings have been there before

    and I don't expect that there will be a set with big savings as this is not meant for new players to get into the game but for those who would have bought it anyway]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530111.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530111.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530112.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530112.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
    I don’t recall them saying that?


    It's stuff from the Q&A sessions, they said something in the vein of "TOW is unlikely to be your first wargame".]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530113.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530113.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530114.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530114.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530117.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530117.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
    Those…aren’t the same thing?


    I am not claiming they are. What i said was intended as a statement of fact: they said this. No more, no less. Anything about boxes is pure speculation at this point.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530118.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530118.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530136.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530136.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Now people say there won't be resin models in a maybe coming starter because GW starters only contains plastic models

    We have no guarantee that there even will be a starter/launch box and not just a 1 click bundle
    combined with a limited edition rulebook ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530137.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530137.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW expect to reach new gamers with this.
    Perhaps GW cares not who buys their boxes as long as they sell, but the project would never have been approved by HQ if they had not shown calculations saying they will reach x new costumers (perhaps aim at Total War players that realised the actual physical game didnt exist any more).
    I bet they have precise goals how many new players they must reach each yearly quarter or someone gets fired. Thats how you run a company.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530153.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530153.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! HH 1.0 was rolled out, but with more plastic support from the start. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530155.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530155.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Fayric wrote:
    Perhaps GW cares not who buys their boxes as long as they sell, but the project would never have been approved by HQ if they had not shown calculations saying they will reach x new costumers (perhaps aim at Total War players that realised the actual physical game didnt exist any more).

    The LARP tie-in is the thing that's designed to reach new costumers. You'd hope TOW might interest some new customers, though.

     Fayric wrote:
    I bet they have precise goals how many new players they must reach each yearly quarter or someone gets fired. Thats how you run a company.

    In your dystopian land of no employee protections, maybe - takes a bit more than one bad quarter to fire someone over here, fortunately.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530211.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530211.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Dysartes wrote:
     Fayric wrote:
    I bet they have precise goals how many new players they must reach each yearly quarter or someone gets fired. Thats how you run a company.

    In your dystopian land of no employee protections, maybe - takes a bit more than one bad quarter to fire someone over here, fortunately.


    Yeah, sorry, I got a bit carried away there. I still assume they have precise goals how many new customers they expect to reach.
    (By the way, you made me notice my flag is not correct, Im way closer than you think.)]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530231.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530231.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Dysartes wrote:
     Fayric wrote:
    Perhaps GW cares not who buys their boxes as long as they sell, but the project would never have been approved by HQ if they had not shown calculations saying they will reach x new costumers (perhaps aim at Total War players that realised the actual physical game didnt exist any more).

    The LARP tie-in is the thing that's designed to reach new costumers. You'd hope TOW might interest some new customers, though.

     Fayric wrote:
    I bet they have precise goals how many new players they must reach each yearly quarter or someone gets fired. Thats how you run a company.

    In your dystopian land of no employee protections, maybe - takes a bit more than one bad quarter to fire someone over here, fortunately.


    Also, firing is a pretty drastical step that you would rarely employ on otherwise-adequate employees for missing goals sporadically due to reasons that may or may not be entirely in their control. Reducing or cancelling bonuses, doing a performance review and such certainly, that's what they're there for, but straight firing would be shooting yourself in the foot really. If you set the bonus targets right, i.e. not too high and not too low, you'd expect your employees to fall short of them sometime, if they succeed all the time the goals are probably too low, if they never get them they're set unrealistically high. Now, never being quite up to expectations is another thing, that's where you start thinking about letting people go - but depending on the position, that may take time as well, you'd want a trained replacement ready to go when they actually leave.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530244.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530244.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW wanted to bring in new players or the game would have a target on new people, there would need to be a starter box
    this is the reason why all the speculation about Empire coming first in a civil war theme to have a pure Empire box that can be used to build 2 forces, or 1, just like the HH set

    yet it looks more like HH1, but without the board games to get plastic models and a made to order like release with 2 factions that are seen as iconic for the game by the company because they never made it to AoS.

    that the one person responsible for that will be fired is unlikely, as the whole situation is already a mess and the one who started the joke would be long gone already
    it would be more likely that the one handling it leaves if HQ tells him he failed to reach certain targets but the resources/strategies to reach them were never approved]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530249.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530249.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Dysartes wrote:
     Fayric wrote:
    Perhaps GW cares not who buys their boxes as long as they sell, but the project would never have been approved by HQ if they had not shown calculations saying they will reach x new costumers (perhaps aim at Total War players that realised the actual physical game didnt exist any more).

    The LARP tie-in is the thing that's designed to reach new costumers. You'd hope TOW might interest some new customers, though.

    I suspect the main market they are looking toward with TOW is the old WFB players who left after End Times. Which would also chip away at the customers of Mantic and other 'Ranks & Flanks' wargames that have sprung up since the launch of AoS. Bringing in Mantic (and other such games) customers would be a secondary goal.

    I suspect they won't be as successful at that as they hope, though. Whether it'll be successful enough to be more than a flash in the pan, we'll see.

     Fayric wrote:
    I bet they have precise goals how many new players they must reach each yearly quarter or someone gets fired. Thats how you run a company.

    In your dystopian land of no employee protections, maybe - takes a bit more than one bad quarter to fire someone over here, fortunately.


    "Failure to meet performance standards" will get you fired for cause pretty much anywhere. But it would have to be a pretty spectacularly bad single quarter to be grounds for immediate termination though. Under more routine circumstances I expect it would take several consecutive bad quarters to do someone in; maybe even an entire bad year.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530251.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530251.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530373.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530373.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     kodos wrote:
    If GW wanted to bring in new players or the game would have a target on new people, there would need to be a starter box


    Depends of GW's definition of a "starter box", actually. It's clear from the FAQ and the clarification that went after on social media that the definition was not the same in the players' mind and GW's team.

    From what I understood from the FAQ, it's not that GW doesn't want to bring in new players. Their target is simply not total newbies in wargames, more like people who already know wargames and are looking for something "deeper" than a simple game system. Or old Battle players.

    Horus Heresy is the same. It's not targeted to total newbies as well, mostly people nostalgic of old 40k versions and who want to explore the past of 40k. They're usually not people who never played a wargame before.



    this is the reason why all the speculation about Empire coming first in a civil war theme to have a pure Empire box that can be used to build 2 forces, or 1, just like the HH set

    yet it looks more like HH1, but without the board games to get plastic models and a made to order like release with 2 factions that are seen as iconic for the game by the company because they never made it to AoS.


    TBH, the speculation was more about the map they revealed first and the timeline they're focusing on. Actually it was Kislev they were talking about first, and at that time it was believed Kislev was one of the first armies.

    Now who knows anymore ?

    What I agree with you is the comparison with HH1, but mostly on the collection part. It really feels like the project is about collecting an army from that period, a bit like a historical army. Feels like it's targeted at collectors / painters more than gamers.



    that the one person responsible for that will be fired is unlikely, as the whole situation is already a mess and the one who started the joke would be long gone already
    it would be more likely that the one handling it leaves if HQ tells him he failed to reach certain targets but the resources/strategies to reach them were never approved


    It's just the communication and the hype built by Warhammer Community that is a mess. The game's development follows its own course, it's normal it takes a lot of time. It's not something small they're working on, after all - we're talking about reviving a game with a lot of different factions. And well...since it's a Specialist Games project, we sadly are forced to accept the fact ressources put into it are not the same than for their main games.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530399.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530399.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Sarouan wrote:
    It really feels like the project is about collecting an army from that period, a bit like a historical army. Feels like it's targeted at collectors / painters more than gamers.


    It feels like a project designed to make use of existing resources with minimal expenditures. Bringing back old kits with a few resin / plastic additions is much less resource intense. And they get to undercut the competitors that arose when they originally murdered WFB. Seems like a win win for GW.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530405.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530405.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     SgtEeveell wrote:

    With Necromunda at launch, they sold the Gangs of the Underhive book, which was basic rules for all 6 main gangs. They don't sell it any more, but I've still got my copy. Also a Gangs of Legend pdf for free with even more basic-er stats.


    No they didnt. Hardback Gangs of the Underhive was released 1 year after the starter box. After all 6 gangs were released. Before hardback books there were softback Gang War books.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530418.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530418.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Vulcan wrote:

    I suspect the main market they are looking toward with TOW is the old WFB players who left after End Times. Which would also chip away at the customers of Mantic and other 'Ranks & Flanks' wargames that have sprung up since the launch of AoS. Bringing in Mantic (and other such games) customers would be a secondary goal.

    I suspect they won't be as successful at that as they hope, though. Whether it'll be successful enough to be more than a flash in the pan, we'll see.

    From what I gather form discussions in the Kings of War community there appear to be three groups:
    1- Have moved on to a better game/company as far as they are concerned and don't intend to play a GW game ever again.
    2- Will give it a go and maybe play TOW along with other games.
    3- Are just playing the available rank and flank fantasy wargame and will definitely switch to TOW when it's available.

    I assume that other games have similar groups, but different proportions of each.

    From this discussion it appears that there is another group:

    4- Only plays GW and are waiting for TOW to finally play rank and flank again.

    GW's target market has to be 3 and 4, with some of 2.
    I think the reason for announcing so long before having something to release is to to stop people becoming 1 and 4's from becoming 3's (and potentially then 1's).
    I'll limit the salt to suggesting that GW does not want people trying games outside the GW bubble if they can help it.

    I think that the genie is out of the bottle and that GW will never regain the market share WHFB enjoyed.
    Too many people have moved on and other games have grown enough to establish themselves.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530536.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530536.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     DarkBlack wrote:

    From this discussion it appears that there is another group:

    4- Only plays GW and are waiting for TOW to finally play rank and flank again.


    This group is the one playing old versions of Battle they still own / get by other means - so they don't have to wait to play rank and file again, they never stopped playing it . And with the last previews, it's not universal. They mostly are looking at TOW because it means the return of their loved universe (and miniatures they can get for their armies), but they are watching if the game will be worth it or they simply keep playing at the old versions like usual.

    Their members usually follow KoW groups for painted miniatures and such (the opposite is true as well). Lots of inspiration to get from each.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530611.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530611.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW to release something for them to play again and the longer GW waits the bigger the chance they finally wander off

    some of the local HH players are from that group, no matter what other Fantasy game is available to play, they are waiting for TOW

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530613.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530613.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     herjan1987 wrote:
    If I remember right they said, that there are going to be some kind of Start Collecting! style boxes, it would be not far fetched, if one or two boxes of these sets contains enough minis for let's say 1000 point game, which would lower the cost of entry. Thus there would be a chance to lure in more new blood for the game.


    Whilest i think a full "basic" army at 1000 pts in a box would be preciscly the way to get people into the hobby, i doubt GW's pricing structure would do the playerbase much of a service.
    Compare 1000 pts in ogres, which basically amounts to a Tyrant (maybee), 1 Squad of bulls, 1-2 squads of gnoblars, maybee a squad of iron guts and then compare that to 1000 pts for Vampire counts. Not even going into skaven.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530614.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530614.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Not Online!!! wrote:
     herjan1987 wrote:
    If I remember right they said, that there are going to be some kind of Start Collecting! style boxes, it would be not far fetched, if one or two boxes of these sets contains enough minis for let's say 1000 point game, which would lower the cost of entry. Thus there would be a chance to lure in more new blood for the game.


    Whilest i think a full "basic" army at 1000 pts in a box would be preciscly the way to get people into the hobby, i doubt GW's pricing structure would do the playerbase much of a service.
    Compare 1000 pts in ogres, which basically amounts to a Tyrant (maybee), 1 Squad of bulls, 1-2 squads of gnoblars, maybee a squad of iron guts and then compare that to 1000 pts for Vampire counts. Not even going into skaven.



    I am only speculating with 1000 points, maybe GW will bring out a game mode like Vanguard Clash, which is played at 500 to 750 points and they will just rock everything that excisted in the history of low point entry games.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530630.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530630.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     kodos wrote:
    this is group #3 (playing whatever is locally available),


    Nope, it's group 4. Like it or not, old versions of Battle are still GW games, even if they're not supported anymore. Same for Epic and Battlefleet Gothic.

    There are as well people playing other GW games like AoS, 40k and HH, but these aren't in risk of wandering off simply because...well, they're still playing GW games anyway. The only risk there is is simply they keep playing what they are actually playing at. That's why they can wait so long and they're not especially in a hurry.

    I'd say the reason why they keep sticking to GW is simply because of the community / player base. And nostalgia. TBH, the part of "finally playing R&F again" is a bit of an excuse. If they really wanted to, there are already options for that. If Conquest and KoW didn't manage to win their heart so far, they won't in the future as well.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530634.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530634.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Expectations for the rules are almost nothing. Pretty sure it will be similar to most modern games. Lots and lots of special rules for every model. No real tactical decisions other than how to optimize your special rules and diminish the opponents. But I will have a look and play a game or 2. It might surprise me.

    Sticking with 3rd edition but looking to see if I can pick up some extra models.

    I have every army for third with the exception of Slaan, (which I am going to proxy lizardmen for) and Skaven. So perhaps time to load up on hordes of rats.

    Regarding other games. I played Hordes of the Things a bit, Raven, and Fantasy Rules!. Tried Mantic also. I like Warhammer because of the various formations a unit can adopt. Being 8 wide and 3 deep vs. 6 wide and 4 deep can make a difference.

    Just my opinion though.

    I am pretty sure I am not the intended audience. But I have spent a lot of cash on GW since about 1987.

    I wish them luck.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530663.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530663.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Sarouan wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    this is group #3 (playing whatever is locally available),


    Nope, it's group 4. Like it or not, old versions of Battle are still GW games, even if they're not supported anymore. Same for Epic and Battlefleet Gothic.

    There are as well people playing other GW games like AoS, 40k and HH, but these aren't in risk of wandering off simply because...well, they're still playing GW games anyway. The only risk there is is simply they keep playing what they are actually playing at. That's why they can wait so long and they're not especially in a hurry.

    I'd say the reason why they keep sticking to GW is simply because of the community / player base. And nostalgia. TBH, the part of "finally playing R&F again" is a bit of an excuse. If they really wanted to, there are already options for that. If Conquest and KoW didn't manage to win their heart so far, they won't in the future as well.


    I have not played fantasy battle since late 90s. Me and a friend was just about to give it a try when they switched to AoS, so I put all those high eleves I just bought in the closet and kept playing 40k Started collecting AoS but dont play it, and started HH because a friend was really in to it. The friends I play with always end up playing just GW games because its the only game system that is easily accesable for people in my area. So, I would fit really well in your analyse At the moment Im quite fond of 6th edition fantasy battle reports on You Tube, and will most likely get models for ToW but not play.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530688.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530688.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Sarouan wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    this is group #3 (playing whatever is locally available),


    Nope, it's group 4. Like it or not, old versions of Battle are still GW games, even if they're not supported anymore. Same for Epic and Battlefleet Gothic.

    Kodos gets it.
    Old editions also fall under what's currently available.

    There are as well people playing other GW games like AoS, 40k and HH, but these aren't in risk of wandering off simply because...well, they're still playing GW games anyway. The only risk there is is simply they keep playing what they are actually playing at. That's why they can wait so long and they're not especially in a hurry.

    I'd say the reason why they keep sticking to GW is simply because of the community / player base. And nostalgia. TBH, the part of "finally playing R&F again" is a bit of an excuse. If they really wanted to, there are already options for that. If Conquest and KoW didn't manage to win their heart so far, they won't in the future as well.

    Yes. Those players would be the ones GW don't have to worry about (i.e. group 4).

    The most common reason I hear for people staying in the GW bubble is that people don't think that there is enough going on outdide the GW bubble to find opponents and/or a gaming group. Often because thier gaming group/store is only interested in GW.

    In my experience this is rarely actually the case.
    Most players of any game are usually unaware of most of the other gaming going on nearby.
    I only felt comfortable entirely quitting GW after I found that I could almost certainly find a game of Infinity in any city with wargamers.
    I don't even play Infinity anymore (for very different reasons) and there's still more wargaming available than I have time for.

    I think nostalgia is why some players give new stuff from GW a look rather than moving on entirely. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530760.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11530760.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! FB group? These should be from the commemorative stamps coming out in the UK at the end of June
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11534516.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11534516.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Matrindur wrote:
    From over on TGA, seems like it originally came from a FB group? These should be from the commemorative stamps coming out in the UK at the end of June


    8th of June, not end of June, as per the official Royal Mail calendar:



    https://www.royalmail.com/sending/stamps

    There should be a preview of the art on them on this website two weeks before release, so pretty soon.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11534530.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11534530.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11534534.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11534534.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
    I've been looking forward to those Warhammer Stamps, but I didn't expect them to just be photos of miniatures. I expected artwork...


    They usually do a lot of different motives for a theme, there'll probably be ones with artwork as well.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11534537.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11534537.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! Lol.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11534540.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11534540.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
    I've been looking forward to those Warhammer Stamps, but I didn't expect them to just be photos of miniatures. I expected artwork...


    These are 'widescreen' high-value stamps, I expect the smaller, portrait 1st, 2nd class etc. will have art, although it could just be a single model, I guess.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11534548.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11534548.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! Reddit:

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11534559.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11534559.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11534563.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11534563.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! AoS and go back to TOW
    While the newer AoS kits are not meant to be used in TOW]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11534571.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11534571.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    I can't put my finger on why, but these feel fake as hell...

    The 0s in 40.000 have diagonal lines inside, which GW usually does not do, the AOS texts have something weird going on with them and look like they change size, and the TOW text on the dwarfs looks misaligned, although that may be due to the background. It's either something like the cardboard backing being bent as hell combined with the protective foil, but something is very weird about all of this.

    Also: upper right corner: Pack. No. 69? Really?

    Looking it up it should be #634, so okay, could be a 3, i guess. Also the black background is weird, the other sets all have much more elaborate background designs, but that could also be a design decision, or this set is a misprint that should have been destroyed and got nabbed by someone instead.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11534573.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11534573.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11534677.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11534677.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     kodos wrote:
    So we can assume that the more modern Warhammer Fantasy kits are removed from AoS and go back to TOW
    While the newer AoS kits are not meant to be used in TOW


    Why wouldn't they just throw in extra bases and have the sets used for both? ISTR that there was quite a while when Demons came with both round & square bases for WFB and WH40K.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11535086.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11535086.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/23/old-world-development-diary-the-main-factions-revealed/

    Core factions:

    These armies will have rules published alongside the launch of the Old World, and will be the pivotal players in the events covered in narrative expansions and supplements. Fans of these armies can also all look forward to some shiny new miniatures that will accompany the return of many classic kits.




    What About the Other Factions?

    Certain factions people remember from Warhammer Fantasy Battles are not part of the narrative we’re telling with The Old World, but will be provided with rules at the launch of the game.

    Dark Elves
    Skaven
    Vampire Counts
    Daemons of Chaos
    Ogre Kingdoms
    Lizardmen
    Chaos Dwarfs

    These legacy faction army lists will be made available for free as pdfs as a service to fans who have these classic armies on their shelf, so they can still bring them to battle for old times sake. We don’t plan to publish rules for Warhammer Age of Sigmar miniatures, except for those units that were part of the game and setting during the final edition of Warhammer Fantasy Battles.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537528.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537528.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Narrows things down to a very limited classic fantasy spectrum - Humans, Elves and Dwarfs vs. Orcs, Chaos and Undead.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537530.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537530.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    scarletsquig wrote:
    Very interesting, only 9 factions. Still a lot more than some people were expecting.

    Narrows things down to a very limited classic fantasy spectrum - Humans, Elves and Dwarfs vs. Orcs, Chaos and Undead.



    It looks a bit like the armies that get remade are the ones that don't have a very strong, very tied-to-GW visual identity (i.e. are a bit more 'generic fantasy') and the ones that have strong GW-specific visuals are left out for the most part. But anyway, 9 Armies is a lot for a launch, even if they just make a couple of new things for each. That's the first DD that contains more than a small bit of concrete, useable information, and makes me cautiously optimistic again. Although of course only legacy Chorfs and no mention of Kislev makes you wonder what sort nonsense they were peddling in their earliest DDs ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537533.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537533.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537534.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537534.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    tneva82 wrote:
    Well kislev was part of empire at one time. Could be part here too.


    Was it - when was that?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537535.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537535.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! VC.

    I get the specific time period they picked lets them get away with it, but more and more it seems like the project doesn't have a strong core idea of what they want it to be and is instead being stitched together as it goes.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537537.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537537.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     SgtEeveell wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    So we can assume that the more modern Warhammer Fantasy kits are removed from AoS and go back to TOW
    While the newer AoS kits are not meant to be used in TOW


    Why wouldn't they just throw in extra bases and have the sets used for both? ISTR that there was quite a while when Demons came with both round & square bases for WFB and WH40K.


    GW does not like cross platform for some reason - makes no sense to me....]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537541.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537541.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Although all the dwarf kits I want are currently around in AOS, it will be nice to pick up some cannons and miners again for the bits alone, plus some heroes.

    I’m just very thankful I never splurged on buying OOP fantasy models, save for the occasional metal hero (ones that had been finecastEd)

    I hope they’ll still make models from those other factions available in smaller waves, even if it’s on a MTO basis. No big skaven faction may mean no island of blood remake, but maybe battle for skull pass is still on the table ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537543.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537543.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Mr Morden wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
    Well kislev was part of empire at one time. Could be part here too.


    Was it - when was that?


    That i can't tell when they last were but one part i'm 100% sure is 5th ed kislev had units in empire book.

    Would help resource wise as less kits needed than stand alone book that needs enough units to be viable.

    Not saying that's what happens(could just be later release) but optiyn is there.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     His Master's Voice wrote:
    This feels like such an arbitrary list of factions. Two Elf flavours, but no Skaven. Tomb Kings on a holiday trip up north, but no VC.

    I get the specific time period they picked lets them get away with it, but more and more it seems like the project doesn't have a strong core idea of what they want it to be and is instead being stitched together as it goes.


    Well some trimming was inevitable. As is it's surprisingly many factions.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537544.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537544.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    tneva82 wrote:
     Mr Morden wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
    Well kislev was part of empire at one time. Could be part here too.


    Was it - when was that?


    That i can't tell when they last were but one part i'm 100% sure is 5th ed kislev had units in empire book.

    Would help resource wise as less kits needed than stand alone book that needs enough units to be viable.

    Not saying that's what happens(could just be later release) but optiyn is there.



    Ah no - they are long term allies so they were included as units you could take representing the long standing alliance.

    As far as I know since the time of Sigmar, the people that inhabited Kislev have been independant - although Simgar almost wiped out the Roppsmen in an campain of brutal vengance whilst under the influence of the Crown of Nagash.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537545.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537545.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    "Anyway here is the Cathay army"

    Make it make sense!]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537549.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537549.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    so instead of the assumed civil war setting, vampire wars or great war against chaos, we have the border princess

    it was the classic setting for campaigns were everyone was involved, setting of the early pc games and has some nostalgia
    but that is boring compared to the others

    for the armies, article reads as if only the side factions get free rules
    depends if we see army books at start or an index like book for good and bad ones.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537555.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537555.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Tsagualsa wrote:


    Good and evil? Riiiight...

    I wonder if that will translate into sucky ally rules.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537559.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537559.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     His Master's Voice wrote:
    This feels like such an arbitrary list of factions. Two Elf flavours, but no Skaven. Tomb Kings on a holiday trip up north, but no VC.

    I get the specific time period they picked lets them get away with it, but more and more it seems like the project doesn't have a strong core idea of what they want it to be and is instead being stitched together as it goes.


    I think to some extent the decision making has to do with IP preservation. Most of the excluded factions are well-entrenched into AoS now (Skaven, Ogres, Lizards, Vamps, Daemons, there are rumors of Chaos Dwarves coming soon, and Dark Elves are partially covered already via Daughters of Khaine, with "Umbraneth" presumably going to cover the remainder). Traditional fantasy knights, Tolkienesque Dwarves and Elves (in 2 flavors, and no Lumineth don't count here, they are actually a fairly large departure from traditional fantasy elf tropes), old fashioned orcs & gobbos, and egyptian undead are nowhere to be found in AoS and don't entirely fit the setting. Beastmen and Warriors of Chaos are well represented in AoS (though Beastmen have been a bit of bastard step-child, maybe they get fully ported to TOW and support for them in AoS gets cut? Doubtful), but I guess they needed some bad guys, unless they take a different tact with the Warriors of Chaos here and lean into Norsca and Kurgan aesthetics vs the heavy plate look of AoS/traditional warriors. Maybe TOW beastmen will be less cow and goat people and more like, I dunno, badgers and skunks or something. Empire also sits in a wierd spot as Freeguild or whatever seem to be adapting that aesthetic into AoS well, but the Empire is such a key part of the setting you can't really avoid it - also possible they go with a different aesthetic from what we're used to here, a bit less steampunk, a bit more traditional HRE, etc.

    "Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Chaos Dwarfs and Ogre Kingdoms are all based far from the Old World"
    "Anyway here is the Cathay army"
    Make it make sense!


    Considering theres zero mention of Cathay being an included army at this point?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537561.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537561.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Geifer wrote:


    Good and evil? Riiiight...

    I wonder if that will translate into sucky ally rules.


    Do you? I wonder if it will translate to an actual game!



    Also, Tomb Kings are not 'Evil', even if one recognizes that Warhammer does not conform to Good/Evil splits easily, and Wood Elves are not 'Good'. It seems like a reduction in scope of the game comes along with a Flanderization of its themes and lore... anyway, now it's 'Narrative supplements', i wonder if that's just another name for something like e.g. the Campaign Sets of old, and means they want to get out of this setting with four or five printed products, in total?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537564.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537564.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    or 1 supplement every 6 month with different armies in focus for a campaign and army books/index following every 12 months (Necromunda style release)]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537569.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537569.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Tsagualsa wrote:
     Geifer wrote:


    Good and evil? Riiiight...

    I wonder if that will translate into sucky ally rules.


    Do you? I wonder if it will translate to an actual game!



    Also, Tomb Kings are not 'Evil', even if one recognizes that Warhammer does not conform to Good/Evil splits easily, and Wood Elves are not 'Good'. It seems like a reduction in scope of the game comes along with a Flanderization of its themes and lore... anyway, now it's 'Narrative supplements', i wonder if that's just another name for something like e.g. the Campaign Sets of old, and means they want to get out of this setting with four or five printed products, in total?

    Actually, Warhammer sported a defined alignment system (well, scale) for a long time. Classically, warhammer wood elves did have Good alignment, and undead and orcs Evil.
    The weirder aspect of this is stuffing humans and dwarfs under Good rather Neutral.

    Now, personally I think alignment schemes are stupid, but if you want a return to the Old World and classic Warhammer things, alignment is a viable pick. I guess (it seems tone deaf in the current market, when even D&D is drifting away from hidebound alignment).


    ----
    Anyway, after all the buildup about bretonnia, kislev and the empire and whatever (3 emperors, siege of prague, vampire wars) this deals with... nothing.
    Just pokey battles in Neutral Land against rabble and Khemri. And, inexplicably, chaos warriors and elves anyway.
    Exciting!

    Three game designers diverged in a wood and the compromise was this, was it?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537570.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537570.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537571.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537571.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537572.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537572.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Gert wrote:
    I am so confused as to what is evening going on anymore with this.


    I'd be surprised if GW even knows anymore At this point it looks like they did at least one radical direction change for this without telling us, but whatever.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537574.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537574.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537575.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537575.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    "Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Chaos Dwarfs and Ogre Kingdoms are all based far from the Old World"
    "Anyway here is the Cathay army"
    Make it make sense!


    Considering theres zero mention of Cathay being an included army at this point?


    https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/18/grand-cathay-is-mapped-for-the-first-time-in-warhammer-the-old-world/

    "Cathay will also be coming to the tabletop in the upcoming Warhammer: The Old World."

    Unless you are saying that they are stealth dropping Cathay and Kislev from The Old World, the official stance is they 'will' be in the Old World.

    The reasoning that the other factions are too far away in this article still doesn't make any sense. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537577.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537577.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537578.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537578.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    why should GW add rules for them in the beginning with the model release being years away]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537579.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537579.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    I totally get that they can't release something so big that every army is there in full and they need to focus on something specific at the start, but what this article implies is that they aren't starting small and building up from there. They're just not bothering with half of the setting or armies at all.

    This should have been the start - these armies initially - but others are still involved lore wise and will be built up to them at a later date. But no, that's not what's going on here. They're instead all just "not part of the narrative we’re telling with The Old World" with a lore excuse not to have them appear properly, they're just not going to be there beyond lip service "legacy rules". So this isn't just the starting point, this is just the game. That's it.

    It's not a return to the WHFB setting with a Horus Heresy Style progression that'll develop over time and feature different parts of the lore as it should have been, it's confining things to a specific area of the setting, at a specific time, and a few specific races, not as a starting point but overall, so if you care about anything else? Too bad, they've decided the rest doesn't matter and won't be part of it.

    It shows a lack of commitment, a lack of a long-term plan, and just a disregard for it overall.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537581.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537581.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     kodos wrote:
    Warhammer Fest already said "in the far future"

    why should GW add rules for them in the beginning with the model release being years away


    They're adding 'legacy' rules for Chaos Dwarves and they don't even have/will have models.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537583.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537583.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     kodos wrote:
    Warhammer Fest already said "in the far future"

    why should GW add rules for them in the beginning with the model release being years away


    Good thing they are adding rules for all those Chaos Dwarf models that exist right? I will get right on the website and buy them. Come on, don't defend the indefensible. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537584.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537584.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    For the amount of time it's taken them I would have liked for at least 2 fully redone armies and a proper starter set]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537585.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537585.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    caladancid wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    Warhammer Fest already said "in the far future"

    why should GW add rules for them in the beginning with the model release being years away


    Good thing they are adding rules for all those Chaos Dwarf models that exist right? I will get right on the website and buy them. Come on, don't defend the indefensible.


    Just because they can't be purchased anymore doesn't mean that they stop "existing".

    GW providing rules for OOP models is a good thing, yet you are trying to turn it into the opposite.

    For people like you, GW are literally in a no-win situation, whatever they do.

    Edit: typos]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537588.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537588.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    caladancid wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    Warhammer Fest already said "in the far future"

    why should GW add rules for them in the beginning with the model release being years away


    Good thing they are adding rules for all those Chaos Dwarf models that exist right? I will get right on the website and buy them. Come on, don't defend the indefensible.


    I don't think what they're doing is indefensible, just confused and not showing a solid plan. It is fine to either (1) re-release WHFB and just say we'll be releasing armies as they come, or (2) do a HH style limited setting dictated by the lore. But they're not really doing either with Old World. They seem hesitant to just say it's WHFB 2.0, but contradict themselves with the 'lore locked setting' aspect by releasing new armies which are not tied to the lore specific settting.

    It just doesn't inspire confience, but hopefully they get their heads screwed on. Because I am very looking forward to Old World otherwise!]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537589.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537589.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
    I feel like this is utterly the wrong move, shows they have no idea what they're actually doing, and makes me have even less faith in the game.

    I totally get that they can't release something so big that every army is there in full and they need to focus on something specific at the start, but what this article implies is that they aren't starting small and building up from there. They're just not bothering with half of the setting or armies at all.

    This should have been the start - these armies initially - but others are still involved lore wise and will be built up to them at a later date. But no, that's not what's going on here. They're instead all just "not part of the narrative we’re telling with The Old World" with a lore excuse not to have them appear properly, they're just not going to be there beyond lip service "legacy rules". So this isn't just the starting point, this is just the game. That's it.

    It's not a return to the WHFB setting with a Horus Heresy Style progression that'll develop over time and feature different parts of the lore as it should have been, it's confining things to a specific area of the setting, at a specific time, and a few specific races, not as a starting point but overall, so if you care about anything else? Too bad, they've decided the rest doesn't matter and won't be part of it.

    It shows a lack of commitment, a lack of a long-term plan, and just a disregard for it overall.



    I think you're correct, but money talks. If it becomes successful - they will expand it. If not...

    For me I'm not onboard until I have lots more details.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537590.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537590.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    One of the main gripes with whfb campaigns was that they always had to make up excuses for all 16 factions to be in some place so they could fight.

    I guess 9 factions can work. They'll release skaven and lizardmen later as own campaign series no doubt.

    IF they mean to have the game running for a long time.

    To be honest I, who is a sceptic that theyll even release a game, is now more optimistic. At least they are less ambitious in scale. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537591.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537591.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537592.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537592.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
    caladancid wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    Warhammer Fest already said "in the far future"

    why should GW add rules for them in the beginning with the model release being years away


    Good thing they are adding rules for all those Chaos Dwarf models that exist right? I will get right on the website and buy them. Come on, don't defend the indefensible.


    Just becuase they can't be purchased anymore doesn't mean that they stop "existing".

    GW providing rules for OOP models is a good thing, yet you are trying to turn it into the opposite.

    For people like you GW are literally in a no win situation, whatever they do.


    I don't think that is what they (and me) were saying. It IS good that they're getting rules even if they are OOP. It was brought up to refute the argument Cathay and Kislev aren't getting rules on release because they don't have models available yet (which itself was an argument to somehow attempt to justify why a lot of factions were 'too far away' to be included, despite Cathay being included).]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537593.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537593.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     GaroRobe wrote:
    So are tomb king being shoehorned in because they the biggest backlash when the models were discontinued? Skaven and undead are scarce, but the tomb king need to go reclaim their Knickknacks


    Vampire Courts are "sleeping" because they have no power because all the von Carsteins are defeated but those sleepy Pharaohs and their Undead Armies from far far away Khemri and their ancient dusty range are all in.

    Also Chaos is sleeping too, because powerless like the Vampires but because Chaos is Chaos so Chaos is also all in...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537598.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537598.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
    caladancid wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    Warhammer Fest already said "in the far future"

    why should GW add rules for them in the beginning with the model release being years away


    Good thing they are adding rules for all those Chaos Dwarf models that exist right? I will get right on the website and buy them. Come on, don't defend the indefensible.


    Just because they can't be purchased anymore doesn't mean that they stop "existing".

    GW providing rules for OOP models is a good thing, yet you are trying to turn it into the opposite.

    For people like you, GW are literally in a no-win situation, whatever they do.

    Edit: typos


    I am not sure what you are reading into my post. I am saying that the argument about rules for Kislev and Kislev models doesn't hold water when they are releasing rules for Chaos Dwarves who also don't have models. If you really want to make that point, at least find someone who is talking about the same thing.

    More proof that the renders they showed were from Total War, and thats not a great look.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537604.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537604.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! AoS.

    This way, it forces people to buy into two separate ranges if they want to play AND keep up to date with any rules changes/releases. Then when sales drop, they can swop in and 'refresh' those ranges.

    But there is no way I could ever sell this game to my gaming group now. Why would any of them want to play this over an older edition of WFB where we have rules for ALL the forces played between us.

    Those pity pdfs they put out will likely last as long as the AoS legends ones did, or the original necromunda gang. And that's before you have 'official only' folk only wanting to play people with currently sold rules.

    Meh. I never expected for the new game to actually cater to me but I didn't think GW would find a way to actively sell me on finishing up buying the last couple of battletomes I need for 6th Ed. At this point, I see it nothing more than a 'made to order' run on those armies that are getting releases. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537607.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537607.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Mallo wrote:
    I understand it from a business perspective. Ogres, Skaven, lizardmen and dark elves could have all pulled 'double duty' in TOW and AoS.

    This way, it forces people to buy into two separate ranges if they want to play AND keep up to date with any rules changes/releases. Then when sales drop, they can swop in and 'refresh' those ranges.

    But there is no way I could ever sell this game to my gaming group now. Why would any of them want to play this over an older edition of WFB where we have rules for ALL the forces played between us.

    Those pity pdfs they put out will likely last as long as the AoS legends ones did, or the original necromunda gang. And that's before you have 'official only' folk only wanting to play people with currently sold rules.

    Meh. I never expected for the new game to actually cater to me but I didn't think GW would find a way to actively sell me on finishing up buying the last couple of battletomes I need for 6th Ed. At this point, I see it nothing more than a 'made to order' run on those armies that are getting releases.



    Not sure if this is true. I feel like the Warhammer fantasy crowd and age of sigmar don't overlap that much. By bringing back every army, and including square bases with the new aos 'remake' models, you'd get people to buy them that normally wouldn't have a reason to]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537615.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537615.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    How a company that has the balls to charge nearly fifty quid for a box of centigors doesn’t have the guts to cancel this clearly unloved, rapidly diminishing project I have no idea.

    Just release classic kits in waves if you want to milk the old fans a bit, GW. They’ll probs sell better that way than through whatever weird experiment this is.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537617.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537617.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    caladancid wrote:
     Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
    caladancid wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    Warhammer Fest already said "in the far future"

    why should GW add rules for them in the beginning with the model release being years away


    Good thing they are adding rules for all those Chaos Dwarf models that exist right? I will get right on the website and buy them. Come on, don't defend the indefensible.


    Just because they can't be purchased anymore doesn't mean that they stop "existing".

    GW providing rules for OOP models is a good thing, yet you are trying to turn it into the opposite.

    For people like you, GW are literally in a no-win situation, whatever they do.

    Edit: typos


    I am not sure what you are reading into my post. I am saying that the argument about rules for Kislev and Kislev models doesn't hold water when they are releasing rules for Chaos Dwarves who also don't have models. If you really want to make that point, at least find someone who is talking about the same thing.

    More proof that the renders they showed were from Total War, and thats not a great look.


    Sorry, my bad, I misunderstood ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537624.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537624.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Instead of a rehash of the old fluff you get a new setting / time period that hasn't been explored before, with new fleshed out lore. The commitment to support at least 9 classic ranges with new models, incl. the revival of two fan-favourite (but never high selling) ranges with Bretonnia and Tomb Kings. Rules for all of the other classic ranges. We know Kislev is on the horizon with a brand new range.

    Sorry, I can't see the problem here. Seems like some people can never be satisfied.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537625.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537625.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     stahly wrote:
    Oh wow, the Fantasy / Old World community must be a quite sour place.

    Instead of a rehash of the old fluff you get a new setting / time period that hasn't been explored before, with new fleshed out lore. The commitment to support at least 9 classic ranges with new models, incl. the revival of two fan-favourite (but never high selling) ranges with Bretonnia and Tomb Kings. Rules for all of the other classic ranges. We know Kislev is on the horizon with a brand new range.

    Sorry, I can't see the problem here. Seems like some people can never be satisfied.


    Nothing wrong with casting a critical eye over releases. If you're a Vampire Counts guy who has been excited for the re-release, it isn't unreasonable to be disappointed your army won't be supported.

    Also if you are invested in WHFB being released, it's reasonable to want to see it done in a 'good way' (and you may disagree with what would be a good way, but it's a legitimate opinion).]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537637.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537637.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     stahly wrote:
    Oh wow, the Fantasy / Old World community must be a quite sour place.

    Instead of a rehash of the old fluff you get a new setting / time period that hasn't been explored before, with new fleshed out lore. The commitment to support at least 9 classic ranges with new models, incl. the revival of two fan-favourite (but never high selling) ranges with Bretonnia and Tomb Kings. Rules for all of the other classic ranges. We know Kislev is on the horizon with a brand new range.

    Sorry, I can't see the problem here. Seems like some people can never be satisfied.


    Yep, exactly this. No one can find anything problematic unless they can never be satisfied.
    Nevermind that this very obviously doesn't match up with the previous dev diaries, leaves out things that were hyped up before, and pulls back on implied promises.
    That's just the 'community' being sour.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537639.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537639.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537642.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537642.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Mr Morden wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
     Mr Morden wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
    Well kislev was part of empire at one time. Could be part here too.


    Was it - when was that?


    That i can't tell when they last were but one part i'm 100% sure is 5th ed kislev had units in empire book.

    Would help resource wise as less kits needed than stand alone book that needs enough units to be viable.

    Not saying that's what happens(could just be later release) but optiyn is there.



    Ah no - they are long term allies so they were included as units you could take representing the long standing alliance.

    As far as I know since the time of Sigmar, the people that inhabited Kislev have been independant - although Simgar almost wiped out the Roppsmen in an campain of brutal vengance whilst under the influence of the Crown of Nagash.


    Yea? I'm not talking about fluff but rules.

    Are you claiming kislev units not been part of empire book before? If yes you are lving. If not then you agree with me.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537648.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537648.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    So... no rules for the Border Princes, but... the game is set there?


    If done right, the rules for Empire should cover Border Princes. Whether it will be done right is a different question.

    Shame they ruled out Tilea earlier, since that's also in the region. But with Dogs of War so tied to characters and regiments of renown from a couple of centuries later, and GW's fetish for having unit entries tied to specific model kits, I guess that was a given.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537649.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537649.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Voss wrote:
     stahly wrote:
    Oh wow, the Fantasy / Old World community must be a quite sour place.

    Instead of a rehash of the old fluff you get a new setting / time period that hasn't been explored before, with new fleshed out lore. The commitment to support at least 9 classic ranges with new models, incl. the revival of two fan-favourite (but never high selling) ranges with Bretonnia and Tomb Kings. Rules for all of the other classic ranges. We know Kislev is on the horizon with a brand new range.

    Sorry, I can't see the problem here. Seems like some people can never be satisfied.


    Nevermind that this very obviously doesn't match up with the previous dev diaries, leaves out things that were hyped up before, and pulls back on implied promises.


    What are you referring to with these?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537650.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537650.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    So... no rules for the Border Princes, but... the game is set there?


    Obviously. That's why we got a brief history of Bretonnian dukedoms and empire provinces in past diaries.
    Kislev and Cathay and maps with vampire nests.

    It all just makes sense.

     Mentlegen324 wrote:
    Voss wrote:
     stahly wrote:
    Oh wow, the Fantasy / Old World community must be a quite sour place.

    Instead of a rehash of the old fluff you get a new setting / time period that hasn't been explored before, with new fleshed out lore. The commitment to support at least 9 classic ranges with new models, incl. the revival of two fan-favourite (but never high selling) ranges with Bretonnia and Tomb Kings. Rules for all of the other classic ranges. We know Kislev is on the horizon with a brand new range.

    Sorry, I can't see the problem here. Seems like some people can never be satisfied.


    Nevermind that this very obviously doesn't match up with the previous dev diaries, leaves out things that were hyped up before, and pulls back on implied promises.


    What are you referring to with these?


    https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/01/11/old-world-development-diary-explore-the-war-torn-lands-of-the-world-that-was/
    https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/18/grand-cathay-is-mapped-for-the-first-time-in-warhammer-the-old-world/
    https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/21/square-bases-and-kislev-ascendant-see-your-questions-about-warhammer-the-old-world-answered/

    Just the link titles say a lot. There are more as well, if you want to dig. They spent an inordinate amount of time mapping and describing Bretonnia and the Empire for places the game isn't going to be. But of course it was always definitely intended this way, right?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537654.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537654.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
    I feel like this is utterly the wrong move, shows they have no idea what they're actually doing, and makes me have even less faith in the game.




    No. Your opinion is they don't have idea.

    Guess what? You aren't the one with authority to decide do they have idea or not

    As is game is shaping up as expected.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537655.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537655.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Today? Not so much I guess?

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537656.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537656.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! That's zapped all interest I had in the rebirth of the game. I'll stick with KoW, although I may look into some of the orc models if anything from the old style is released.

    I suppose that's my 2nd goodbye to the Old World.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537658.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537658.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Voss wrote:


    https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/01/11/old-world-development-diary-explore-the-war-torn-lands-of-the-world-that-was/
    https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/18/grand-cathay-is-mapped-for-the-first-time-in-warhammer-the-old-world/
    https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/21/square-bases-and-kislev-ascendant-see-your-questions-about-warhammer-the-old-world-answered/


    And where for example they said kislev is out first wave?

    Nowhere.

    If you decide you know better than gw then that's your mistake.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537660.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537660.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Gimgamgoo wrote:
    I may look into some of the orc models if anything from the old style is released.



    If it's plastic yeah same here. Resin not so much.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537661.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537661.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    caladancid wrote:
    I thought I would take a trip back to the bad old days of 2020 and 2021. At some point Kislev was planned, to include alleged models in development, and was part of the map.

    Today? Not so much I guess?



    And gw has said they don't release?

    If you assumed they　come out right away that was your assumption. Not what gw said.

    Don't trv to assume you know more than what gw tells.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537662.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537662.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    tneva82 wrote:


    And where for example they said kislev is out first wave?

    Nowhere.

    If you decide you know better than gw then that's your mistake.


    Your observations are useless.

    Where did _I_ say 'they said kislev is out first wave?'

    If you didn't think Kislev was relevant for the game despite "kislev-ascendant-see-your-questions-about-warhammer-the-old-world-answered " then I can not ever understand your thought process, and there isn't any reason for you to reply to me ever.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537663.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537663.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW does - but as these releases are meant to build hype, it really feels like one step forward and two steps back.

    Ignoring what we have learned in more recent times, a focused release would have made sense to me. Back when first announced I expected a boring Empire vs Chaos box and release - maybe followed by Dwarfs and O&Gs. All new models. If it isn't dead on arrival, make more like usual.

    But instead we are told 9 factions are getting "some shiny new miniatures that will accompany the return of many classic kits."

    To my mind 9 is far too many to be "focused". And if we are talking about mainly old kits plus a couple of forgeworld characters, why not include the other few factions cut out? If we are talking more conventional support - then if say Wood Elves get their new minis circa 2026, are GW terrified people might hope to see Skaven or Dark Elves some time in 2027?

    Basically I don't understand what GW are doing with this release. So I am left wondering if this is a confused cash grab aimed at old gamers who have some nostalgia for 20+ year old kits.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537665.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537665.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    tneva82 wrote:
    caladancid wrote:
    I thought I would take a trip back to the bad old days of 2020 and 2021. At some point Kislev was planned, to include alleged models in development, and was part of the map.

    Today? Not so much I guess?



    And gw has said they don't release?

    If you assumed they　come out right away that was your assumption. Not what gw said.

    Don't trv to assume you know more than what gw tells.


    I think you should just stop. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537670.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537670.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    tneva82 wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
    I feel like this is utterly the wrong move, shows they have no idea what they're actually doing, and makes me have even less faith in the game.




    No. Your opinion is they don't have idea.

    Guess what? You aren't the one with authority to decide do they have idea or not

    As is game is shaping up as expected.


    What as asinine response. You seem to have missed the first two words where I said its my feelings on the matter.

    You aren't the the one with authority to decide if the game is shaping up as expected or not ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537676.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537676.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    This makes me seriously question my commitment to this game now, it's one thing to not initially support all of the factions out of the gate and gauge if this will be profitable as a product before committing to supporting the rest of the range. It's another thing to flat out indicate that for lore reasons they won't be included at all in the game.

    What a bummer.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537679.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537679.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW think this is going to be a big game release and thus they've shifted from adding new factions with fewer models to adding old factions in greater numbers which they can bulk out because they've already got a lot of the moulds ready to go from before.

    They are also likely getting a LOT of interest from people who have old armies (eg TK to name but one) who want to expand those forces and get them playing again.

    Kislev were old and niche at their time; whilst Cathay is totally fresh. So GW might not feel as much pressure from marketing for them compared to the people likely screaming at them for TK to return or Brets or such.



    So perhaps the plan has changed and we will see the old armies take the lead at the launch with newer forces coming a little later. I doubt GW threw all the Cathay and Kislev stuff out the window.

    Plus we honestly don't know what the release windows are or what its going to roll out like. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537684.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537684.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW want to market them separately.

    GW have already said Kislev is coming, we've had previews of them and Creative Assembly said that GW have designed them - thus one of the reasons why they ended up in TWW3.

    Read between the lines, it's not tough.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537685.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537685.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Grinshanks wrote:
    "Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Chaos Dwarfs and Ogre Kingdoms are all based far from the Old World"
    "Anyway here is the Cathay army"
    Make it make sense!


    Considering theres zero mention of Cathay being an included army at this point?


    https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/18/grand-cathay-is-mapped-for-the-first-time-in-warhammer-the-old-world/
    "Cathay will also be coming to the tabletop in the upcoming Warhammer: The Old World."
    Unless you are saying that they are stealth dropping Cathay and Kislev from The Old World, the official stance is they 'will' be in the Old World.
    The reasoning that the other factions are too far away in this article still doesn't make any sense.


    My point is that within the context of todays article, Cathay aren't coming. Assuming Cathay hasn't been shitcanned, the implication you can take away from this is that todays article is not complete nor binding, and that Cathay, Dark Elves, etc. could feasibly become "featured armies" or whatever the jargon is at a later date.

    Voss wrote:

    ----
    Anyway, after all the buildup about bretonnia, kislev and the empire and whatever (3 emperors, siege of prague, vampire wars) this deals with... nothing.
    Just pokey battles in Neutral Land against rabble and Khemri. And, inexplicably, chaos warriors and elves anyway.
    Exciting!
    Three game designers diverged in a wood and the compromise was this, was it?


    At Warhammer Fest they did say that the Three Emperors narrative would not be explored on launch, and that they would be focusing the initial release on getting out rules for peoples existing collections, etc. It seems they went with the "Border Princes" as a sort of "blank slate" setting/narrative to enable this for the first, I dunno 6 months? Year? 3 Years? after launch, and THEN they will get into the "new stuff" with Three Emperors lore and Kislev, and all the other gak.

     Mentlegen324 wrote:

    This should have been the start - these armies initially - but others are still involved lore wise and will be built up to them at a later date. But no, that's not what's going on here. They're instead all just "not part of the narrative we’re telling with The Old World" with a lore excuse not to have them appear properly, they're just not going to be there beyond lip service "legacy rules". So this isn't just the starting point, this is just the game. That's it.

    It's not a return to the WHFB setting with a Horus Heresy Style progression that'll develop over time and feature different parts of the lore as it should have been, it's confining things to a specific area of the setting, at a specific time, and a few specific races, not as a starting point but overall, so if you care about anything else? Too bad, they've decided the rest doesn't matter and won't be part of it.

    It shows a lack of commitment, a lack of a long-term plan, and just a disregard for it overall.


    "I told you so". I mean, I think you're going too far in the wrong direction, unless they completely changed all their plans they teased from the past couple years, it seems that its a game designed to grow and evolve over time, given the promises of Kislev and Cathay in the future, but from the beginning theres been quite a few of us saying (and being shouted down by naysayers) that the community should curb its expectations and that it wasn't a coincidence that the game is called "The Old World" and basically the first actual thing they showed us (after the logo) was a map of the literal continent of The Old World and not much else. I expect some of those other factions to make a comeback, along with new ones, but it seems clear that they regard factions like the Ogres and Lizardmen to now be the provenance of Age of Sigmar and don't feel obligated to heavily explore them more in the-world-that-was. Doesn't mean they won't ever get attention, but safe to say they are lower in priority and they have a lot more interest in fleshing out other aspects of the setting that aren't redundant to their current flagship fantasy IP.

    James12345 wrote:
    What the hell has been happening with development of this game? 4 years plus and all we really know is that some old models are coming back and a few new plastic units and character models from forgeworld. What happened to that Kislev army they showed in full ages ago? Or Cathay? How will they fit into the "narrative" they're trying to tell?

    For the amount of time it's taken them I would have liked for at least 2 fully redone armies and a proper starter set


    NGL - this does seem like either a massive misstep in marketing or the result of a very troubled development cycle, etc. that has caused them to change their plans several times while they were right in the middle of it. Hard to tell which, maybe both. The messaging behind the game has been disjointed/inconsistent/poor from the start. Ex - if they previously hinted/outright stated that Kislev and/or Cathay were to be included, why not mention that anywhere in this article? Surely they would know that people are dumb and short-sighted and will not remember articles put out 2 years ago or will assume that lack of continued mention of it means its no longer happening, etc. A simple line to the effect of "long term, fans of The Old World can expect new armies to join the fray, such as Kislev and Cathay which we have told you previously will be joining the fight on a tabletop near you!" would have done absolute wonders, no? Likewise, why did they tell us at Warhammer Fest that the release plans for the game were to focus on getting content out for legacy armies and then focusing on the new narrative, but not mention that in this article nor any of the other articles released on Warcom? Do they assume that we all know what was said at one specific seminar attended by just a few hundred people a few weeks ago? Not everyone follows rumormongers on Twitter and Facebook and will be familiar with those details - also those details are coming at us through filter and interpretation and might not be 100% accurate either.

    In any case, to me it seems clear that things have not gone smoothly behind the scenes, with how long this has taken and how little they actually have to show for it. The fact that they seem to be launching the game with legacy kits instead of a whole new model range (which they seem to be promising/implying will be coming later on in the games development) seems to be a big giveaway that major decisions were made to move TOW in a direction other than what was originally planned at the very start when it was revealed to us,a nd the production timeline as a result is not keeping pace with their release timeline. My guess is that they were originally intending to launch with all-new armies and models and were going to leave the legacy stuff behind or circle to some of it later, but based on community feedback (and/or focus group testing) and kvetching they realised that would be unpopular, so instead they are trying to appease the existing "core" community" to some extent by bringing forward legacy rules first and THEN circling around to the new stuff.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537686.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537686.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    I had hoped they would rerelease Island of Blood which remains one of the most visually stunning starter boxes they have ever produced. But with no Skaven looks like that won't be the case.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537688.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537688.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Gallahad wrote:
    I think limiting the initial scope of their 4yr old vaporware is a reasonable move. The whole thing might just be an exercise to see how long they can string you guys along for.

    I had hoped they would rerelease Island of Blood which remains one of the most visually stunning starter boxes they have ever produced. But with no Skaven looks like that won't be the case.


    The problem is this doesn't appear to be just the initial scope. It outright says that even as the narrative develops, the other stuff isn't part of what the project covers.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    chaos0xomega wrote:
     Grinshanks wrote:
    "Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Chaos Dwarfs and Ogre Kingdoms are all based far from the Old World"
    "Anyway here is the Cathay army"
    Make it make sense!



     Mentlegen324 wrote:

    This should have been the start - these armies initially - but others are still involved lore wise and will be built up to them at a later date. But no, that's not what's going on here. They're instead all just "not part of the narrative we’re telling with The Old World" with a lore excuse not to have them appear properly, they're just not going to be there beyond lip service "legacy rules". So this isn't just the starting point, this is just the game. That's it.

    It's not a return to the WHFB setting with a Horus Heresy Style progression that'll develop over time and feature different parts of the lore as it should have been, it's confining things to a specific area of the setting, at a specific time, and a few specific races, not as a starting point but overall, so if you care about anything else? Too bad, they've decided the rest doesn't matter and won't be part of it.

    It shows a lack of commitment, a lack of a long-term plan, and just a disregard for it overall.


    "I told you so". I mean, I think you're going too far in the wrong direction, unless they completely changed all their plans they teased from the past couple years, it seems that its a game designed to grow and evolve over time, given the promises of Kislev and Cathay in the future, but from the beginning theres been quite a few of us saying (and being shouted down by naysayers) that the community should curb its expectations and that it wasn't a coincidence that the game is called "The Old World" and basically the first actual thing they showed us (after the logo) was a map of the literal continent of The Old World and not much else. I expect some of those other factions to make a comeback, along with new ones, but it seems clear that they regard factions like the Ogres and Lizardmen to now be the provenance of Age of Sigmar and don't feel obligated to heavily explore them more in the-world-that-was. Doesn't mean they won't ever get attention, but safe to say they are lower in priority and they have a lot more interest in fleshing out other aspects of the setting that aren't redundant to their current flagship fantasy IP.



    "The Old World" is a term they've used to refer to the WHFB setting as whole, not just that specific continent, and the maps and articles talking about Cathay and Kislev - who are outside of that part of the map - further implied it wasn't just that.

    Now it is, with no hint at all about any of that other stuff, and them outright saying things outside of these armies aren't part of the narrative even as it progresses. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537689.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537689.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! WHFB

    Skaven
    Lizardmen
    Chaos Dwarfs

    So I suppose I'm not the target audience for The Old World...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537692.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537692.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    Excellent stuff


    Great post that sums up my misgivings about the thing perfectly - their communication is a jumbled mess, and as a result all sorts of people have varying levels of information and the community in general is confused and angry. Probably angrier than it should be, but that is on GW - it seems like we have been marketed three totally different approaches to the Old World under that label already, and there are no signs of the game being released anytime soon. Doing a two-tiered list of armies, where one half of the existing things get new models and books and the rest gets a warm handshake and a get-you-by pdf is bound to rile people up, especially when done with a paper-thin excuse of 'muh narrative' and no rhyme or reason. 'Narrative' for GW, outside of Forgeworld books, usually means little value for definitely not-little money...

    This project lacks focus, a plan and above all, coherent and unambiguous communications.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537696.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537696.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Articles for reference:
    Kislev: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/03/23/the-old-world-ice-guard-of-kislevgw-homepage-post-4fw-homepage-post-2/
    Cathay (granted, no indication of them becoming a playable factions specifically): https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/18/grand-cathay-is-mapped-for-the-first-time-in-warhammer-the-old-world/

    Playable factions (notice no Kislev or Cathay): https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/23/old-world-development-diary-the-main-factions-revealed/]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537697.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537697.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Londinium wrote:
    Everyone whinging over Kislev (and to a lesser extent Cathay) - it's clear that today's article just dealt with the existing 8e armies. I would expect to see Kislev pop up in year 2 or 3 of the game if it's successful under a new supplement. Hell I wouldn't even be surprised if they're in the launch books and just haven't been mentioned in this article because they're not an 8e army and GW want to market them separately.

    GW have already said Kislev is coming, we've had previews of them and Creative Assembly said that GW have designed them - thus one of the reasons why they ended up in TWW3.

    Read between the lines, it's not tough.


    You aren’t just reading between the lines, you are just making up what you wish was happening. The articles that are linked and screenshotted for you to look at, if you want to, say Kislev is a faction. Not maybe a faction. Not coming later if the game sells well. It was the FIRST faction previewed. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537701.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537701.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! WHFB armies, which Kislev and Cathay were not.
    Irritating technicality is hardly a new thing for GW.

    It is still objectively true that any and all comms for this game are a huge mess, however. Not disagreeing there.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537702.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537702.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! doa]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537704.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537704.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Gert wrote:
    With regard to Kislev and Cathay, it doesn't technically say they aren't part of it. The armies that aren't getting featured are specifically called out as legacy WHFB armies, which Kislev and Cathay were not.
    Irritating technicality is hardly a new thing for GW.

    It is still objectively true that any and all comms for this game are a huge mess, however. Not disagreeing there.


    Some of their decisions only make sense when you assume some sort of underlying motive - for example the exlcusion of e.g. Chaos Demons makes no sense thematically. Imho there are some equally likely possibilities: either they want to focus on the races that need their IP strengthened and tied to GW, or they want to focus on stuff that is only useful in TOW, to have an accurate gauge of the economic prospects of that game (i.e. no sales 'hidden' by stuff that is multi-purpose in AoS and 40k as well, like Demons). It might be something like a very hard 'succeed or die' deadline looming over the project due to time and cost overshoot, who knows.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537711.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537711.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    I don't know WHFB's background well enough to say if this is true but it fits with how I know 40k Daemons work with regards to them only manifesting en masse when a world is truly screwed.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537718.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537718.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    I think something has gone very wrong in development. I think it was meant to release 1 to 2 years after the initial announcement, with all new models, but for some reason they decided to completely change direction and that's why it's been 5 and we still have pretty much no info.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537719.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537719.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    I think it was meant to release 1 to 2 years after the initial announcement


    It definitely was not. The initial announcement actively mentioned 3 years, minimum (and stressed minimum). And that was best case before COVID, Brexit and shipping nonsense.

    Yes, things have gone wrong (imo) and they changed direction, but a long development time was announced and expected. The only thing they had in place at the time of announcement was the logo and square bases.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537720.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537720.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Regarding some armies getting a legacy pdf vs full support, it may just be that there was just simply not enough time to playtest/finish them to the same extent. If there's a hard deadline for the release of TOW, then it may be a case of shipping whatever is ready at the time.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537721.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537721.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537723.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537723.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    James12345 wrote:
    The decision to just bring back the old factions, but not all of them, is baffling to me. Especially when many of the abandoned ones have full, updated model lines as part of age of sigmar that could easily be transferred over.


    I would imagine manufacturing capacity dictates that not everything that could be brought back is being brought back. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537727.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537727.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Vorian wrote:
    James12345 wrote:
    The decision to just bring back the old factions, but not all of them, is baffling to me. Especially when many of the abandoned ones have full, updated model lines as part of age of sigmar that could easily be transferred over.


    I would imagine manufacturing capacity dictates that not everything that could be brought back is being brought back.



    But all of the stuff is already back as part of age of sigmar! So why aren't they including them in this too?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537731.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537731.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537733.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537733.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    James12345 wrote:
    But all of the stuff is already back as part of age of sigmar! So why aren't they including them in this too?

    Some, not all. Very few armies are exactly as they were when AoS started with those that had large portions of finecast or metal minis being the most gutted.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537734.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537734.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Gert wrote:
    James12345 wrote:
    But all of the stuff is already back as part of age of sigmar! So why aren't they including them in this too?

    Some, not all. Very few armies are exactly as they were when AoS started with those that had large portions of finecast or metal minis being the most gutted.


    I suspect many of the finecast minis won't be returning anyway, but that could be a problem. You could definitely create a more than workable army from what is available at the moment though.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537736.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537736.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    MaxT wrote:
    Probably an object lesson in why you don’t announce stuff so far ahead - when things inevitably change during development peeps cry foul


    Eh some have been crying foul the entire time since the first announcement
    Some just won't be pleased or read so far into the scant marketing that they come out the otherside with expectations wildly different from what's been shown.


    In the end I'd wager MANY more are happy to see the armies returning that GW is advertising and are excited to get the rank and file game back along with a slew of classic models; many of which were very good in their time. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537739.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537739.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    caladancid wrote:
     Londinium wrote:
    Everyone whinging over Kislev (and to a lesser extent Cathay) - it's clear that today's article just dealt with the existing 8e armies. I would expect to see Kislev pop up in year 2 or 3 of the game if it's successful under a new supplement. Hell I wouldn't even be surprised if they're in the launch books and just haven't been mentioned in this article because they're not an 8e army and GW want to market them separately.

    GW have already said Kislev is coming, we've had previews of them and Creative Assembly said that GW have designed them - thus one of the reasons why they ended up in TWW3.

    Read between the lines, it's not tough.


    You aren’t just reading between the lines, you are just making up what you wish was happening. The articles that are linked and screenshotted for you to look at, if you want to, say Kislev is a faction. Not maybe a faction. Not coming later if the game sells well. It was the FIRST faction previewed.


    There's literally been Kislev concept art promoted, of new units and not just recycled. Either GW have utterly cocked up their production, which would be rare (Cursed City being one of the few examples in recent years) and considering these things have 2-3 years lead times, I doubt they would have shown Kislev concept art unless they were confident that Kislev was locked into the game. Or Kislev will be coming at some point, perhaps from the start and hasn't been mentioned because it wasn't an 8e army or perhaps early in the games lifespan. It'd be utterly stupid to launch a game set 20 years before the Siege of Praag, when an invasion of Kislev is the culmination of the historical era, when you've previewed Kislev concept art, when you've said Kislev will be in the game....then not release Kislev.

    Having Kislev and other factions coming after an initial launch is actually very savvy sales by GW as the initial launch will sell regardless of new factions. Then once the initial hype drops you launch a new faction, being fleshed out properly for the first time to whip it back up.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537741.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537741.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    That is why Warhammer Fantasy Battles and Mordhiem skirmish is making a resurgence in my neck of the woods. The news about "The Old World" was THE best sales pitch to me to get back into fantasy and get the books and armies I couldn't get the first time around.

    Then there's Mordhiem...

    I'm back into Mordhiem again.

    That "Old World" stuff looks to me like it was some releases that were supposed to come out when that AOS nonsense kicked off. Looks to me like someone is listening to the rumblings in the warp and reaching out as either a cash grab, or a test base to see if Fantasy kicks up again.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537743.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537743.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537744.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537744.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    MaxT wrote:
    Probably an object lesson in why you don’t announce stuff so far ahead - when things inevitably change during development peeps cry foul


    Just a tidbit to put in perspective how far out they announced stuff: the Map of the Old World they showed in one of the earliest diaries/announcements was the first in-house piece of work for which Louise Sugden was the main creator - she has since had her career of seven years at SDS ('Forgeworld') and GW, was packaging designer, illustrator, presenter for Warhammer TV and more, and now has her own independent company. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537748.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537748.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Tsagualsa wrote:
    MaxT wrote:
    Probably an object lesson in why you don’t announce stuff so far ahead - when things inevitably change during development peeps cry foul


    Just a tidbit to put in perspective how far out they announced stuff: the Map of the Old World they showed in one of the earliest diaries/announcements was the first in-house piece of work for which Louise Sugden was the main creator - she has since had her career of seven years at SDS ('Forgeworld') and GW, was packaging designer, illustrator, presenter for Warhammer TV and more, and now has her own independent company.


    I wonder if she or Chris peach will do a video about its development. Chris seems to be doing a lot of "exposing gw" type videos, would be interesting to get an insider view on it]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537752.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537752.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Ignispacium wrote:
    ...it may just be that there was just simply not enough time to playtest/finish them to the same extent...

    Oh you sweet summer child...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537754.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537754.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Ignispacium wrote:
    Regarding some armies getting a legacy pdf vs full support, it may just be that there was just simply not enough time to playtest/finish them to the same extent. If there's a hard deadline for the release of TOW, then it may be a case of shipping whatever is ready at the time.


    But there's no deadline?
    Everyone will get "Ravening Hordes 2.0". Then the 9 factions seem set to get support - new models, army books, campaign supplements etc. Maybe things like Kislev and Cathay will show up - but so long as GW are working their way through this supposed roadmap, there will be nothing for Skaven, Lizardmen, DE etc.

    This is presumably not something that will all come out together with a bang - but be rolled out over years.

    If they just said "we hope for ToW to come out late this year/2024, and for the first few years we'll be looking at these 9 factions (and maybe some new ones, )" it would be fine. But instead it seems they are going "oh those other factions just aren't in this game. Cos we say so."]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537758.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537758.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    James12345 wrote:
    I wonder if she or Chris peach will do a video about its development. Chris seems to be doing a lot of "exposing gw" type videos, would be interesting to get an insider view on it

    There is a difference between Chris Peach talking about his time as a retail monkey or why he decided to leave GW and "exposing" stuff. Talking about the development of a game system that is in active development isn't going to happen because NDAs are a very enforceable thing.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537761.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537761.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Tyel wrote:

    If they just said "we hope for ToW to come out late this year/2024, and for the first few years we'll be looking at these 9 factions (and maybe some new ones, )" it would be fine. But instead it seems they are going "oh those other factions just aren't in this game. Cos we say so."


    The thing that is worrying about that is not so much the arbitrary nature of this decision, but the closedness of it. Usually, you don't get hard 'no's from GW concerning plans for the future - their usual marketing-talk around such issues is normally in the vein of 'there are no concrete plans to do that yet' or 'we'll have to decide that when we get around to doing these' or any conceivable iteration thereof. All their talk of 'This is not part of the narrative that we want to tell' etc. points to this being an effort that is somewhat limited, and will just end when the narrative is finished. And that is a factor that could conceivably prevent many people from investing time and money into this setting and system.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537763.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537763.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Londinium wrote:
    caladancid wrote:
     Londinium wrote:
    Everyone whinging over Kislev (and to a lesser extent Cathay) - it's clear that today's article just dealt with the existing 8e armies. I would expect to see Kislev pop up in year 2 or 3 of the game if it's successful under a new supplement. Hell I wouldn't even be surprised if they're in the launch books and just haven't been mentioned in this article because they're not an 8e army and GW want to market them separately.

    GW have already said Kislev is coming, we've had previews of them and Creative Assembly said that GW have designed them - thus one of the reasons why they ended up in TWW3.

    Read between the lines, it's not tough.


    You aren’t just reading between the lines, you are just making up what you wish was happening. The articles that are linked and screenshotted for you to look at, if you want to, say Kislev is a faction. Not maybe a faction. Not coming later if the game sells well. It was the FIRST faction previewed.


    There's literally been Kislev concept art promoted, of new units and not just recycled. Either GW have utterly cocked up their production, which would be rare (Cursed City being one of the few examples in recent years) and considering these things have 2-3 years lead times, I doubt they would have shown Kislev concept art unless they were confident that Kislev was locked into the game. Or Kislev will be coming at some point, perhaps from the start and hasn't been mentioned because it wasn't an 8e army or perhaps early in the games lifespan. It'd be utterly stupid to launch a game set 20 years before the Siege of Praag, when an invasion of Kislev is the culmination of the historical era, when you've previewed Kislev concept art, when you've said Kislev will be in the game....then not release Kislev.

    Having Kislev and other factions coming after an initial launch is actually very savvy sales by GW as the initial launch will sell regardless of new factions. Then once the initial hype drops you launch a new faction, being fleshed out properly for the first time to whip it back up.


    We saw Kislev and Cathay earlier on, even maps for them, only to now have them say its centered on the Old World part of the map that those two aren't part of, with absolutely no indication of expanding to other areas/armies at a later time. What this article talks about isn't just for the initial launch of the game, it's talking about what the game itself consists of - and nowhere does it hint at expanding it beyond that later.

    It says that these 9 armies are the core of the game itself, even with additional books later on and it says that other armies are not part of the narrative they're telling. Not that something like Skaven and Lizardmen are coming later, they're just not part of what the project covers beyond the lip service rules they're getting.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537766.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537766.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537767.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537767.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    James12345 wrote:
    Vorian wrote:
    James12345 wrote:
    The decision to just bring back the old factions, but not all of them, is baffling to me. Especially when many of the abandoned ones have full, updated model lines as part of age of sigmar that could easily be transferred over.


    I would imagine manufacturing capacity dictates that not everything that could be brought back is being brought back.



    But all of the stuff is already back as part of age of sigmar! So why aren't they including them in this too?


    Stock levels are low on basically everything though, right?

    They will need to manufacture a good amount for all these supportes armies. Not least for the new packaging/to include the bases. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537768.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537768.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537769.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537769.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Billicus wrote:
    Yeah, it very much isn't qualified with "at launch" or "to begin with", it's "these are the factions the game will focus on". And it *is* weird that they've built up Cathay and Kislev so much, but now no sign of them. Clearly ran into some problems.


    So far we have been shown more diaries about things the game *isn't* about than ones that directly consider things that are 'in focus'...

    As i said, there has to have been at least one major direction change that they're plastering over in their typical GW manner of never acknowledging the obvious.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537771.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537771.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Gert wrote:
    James12345 wrote:
    I wonder if she or Chris peach will do a video about its development. Chris seems to be doing a lot of "exposing gw" type videos, would be interesting to get an insider view on it

    There is a difference between Chris Peach talking about his time as a retail monkey or why he decided to leave GW and "exposing" stuff. Talking about the development of a game system that is in active development isn't going to happen because NDAs are a very enforceable thing.


    Not only that but like several of the ex-presenter staff chances are he's wanting to keep his options open. The whole patreon/youtube market can implode or you can make a few mistakes and your numbers tank and suddenly a regular steady income stream from an employer is more attractive once more etc.... Heck some "content creators" just burn out after a while because the demand to produce can be quite extreme. Esp when you have to keep up with all the various marketing and search engine algorithms.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537774.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537774.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    But yeah, better keep your expectations low and stop getting hyped for anything unless you have an actual date and picture for the release.

    What I'm actually bothered is that this info was not offered at Warhammer Fest preview instead of the poor 2 miniatures shown. They clearly knew already that was the plan then, they didn't because they wanted to keep having stuff for the "Warhammer Community content". It's stupid, IMHO.

    That and they still don't tell about the measures of cavalry bases. And now monsters and chariots too. Tell them already, you did for infantry so go the full way now ! You know it, we saw them on the pictures showing just old miniatures rebased, we don't have to wait that damn sheet on "ReLeAse DaTE". ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537776.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537776.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Vorian wrote:
    James12345 wrote:
    Vorian wrote:
    James12345 wrote:
    The decision to just bring back the old factions, but not all of them, is baffling to me. Especially when many of the abandoned ones have full, updated model lines as part of age of sigmar that could easily be transferred over.


    I would imagine manufacturing capacity dictates that not everything that could be brought back is being brought back.



    But all of the stuff is already back as part of age of sigmar! So why aren't they including them in this too?


    Stock levels are low on basically everything though, right?

    They will need to manufacture a good amount for all these supportes armies. Not least for the new packaging/to include the bases.


    The brand new bases... which they're also going to produce en masse for replacements.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537779.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537779.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Sarouan wrote:
    About the lack of Kislev, I guess that just means it's not in the first wave.


    There is no "first wave" of armies, these are what the project consists of. The others are not part of the project.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537780.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537780.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
    Sarouan wrote:
    About the lack of Kislev, I guess that just means it's not in the first wave.


    There is no "first wave" of armies, these are what the project consists of. The others are not part of the project.


    From the article :


    Much of the action in the first wave of books and supplements takes place in and around the Border Princes – the barrier lands between the Empire and Orc territory. Accordingly, we will be focusing on nine core factions.


    So yes, there's a first wave that is intended. That means they intend to make more.

    And "focusing on" doesn't mean "solely including".

    But yeah, since they didn't put Kislev on the list, that means it's apparently not before a while.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537781.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537781.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Sarouan wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
    Sarouan wrote:
    About the lack of Kislev, I guess that just means it's not in the first wave.


    There is no "first wave" of armies, these are what the project consists of. The others are not part of the project.


    From the article :


    Much of the action in the first wave of books and supplements takes place in and around the Border Princes – the barrier lands between the Empire and Orc territory. Accordingly, we will be focusing on nine core factions.


    So yes, there's a first wave that is intended. That means they intend to make more.

    And "focusing on" doesn't mean "solely including".

    But yeah, since they didn't put Kislev on the list, that means it's apparently not before a while.


    Obviously there's a first wave of books. That's not the same as a first wave of armies.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537785.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537785.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! If the first wave is focusing on the Border Princes, the second wave could focus on the north where most of the core factions still operate but with the addition of Kislev. The third could focus on the east with Cathay fighting the forces of Chaos at the Great Bastion.

    Again, still confusing and unclear but not an outright confirmation that Cathay and Kislev have been removed from consideration.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537787.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537787.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Sacredroach wrote:
    I literally only have three armies left for WHFB

    Skaven
    Lizardmen
    Chaos Dwarfs

    So I suppose I'm not the target audience for The Old World...


    You know, they wont mind if you buy a new army
    Ofcourse, I dont know how bitter you are, but it sounds to me you are exactly the target audience ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537788.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537788.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! AoS, and so don't require a relaunch of old models with new boxes wince they're already on shop shelves.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537790.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537790.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537796.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537796.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    So let's start with the good news, GW is launching 9 armies at the release of the Old World. This is a feat that GW has never done before. So, let's say GW releases new 2 heroes and 2 or 3 new units per army that would be a single army worth of singles and units. Yes, these new models are getting release with pretty good, but older, plastics and some resin and metal models. Now it is important to note that, if GW did not kill WHFB most if not all of these kits they are releasing would still be on the shelves. This is a respectable release.

    Second, They are releasing ravaging hoards lists for the armies with the exception of the Dogs of War. This is good news for all of the players.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537797.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537797.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Sarouan wrote:
    What I'm actually bothered is that this info was not offered at Warhammer Fest preview instead of the poor 2 miniatures shown. They clearly knew already that was the plan then, they didn't because they wanted to keep having stuff for the "Warhammer Community content". It's stupid, IMHO.
    well, I would not bet that the people at Warhammer Fest knew about this, or that this was already planned by that time


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Paymaster Games wrote:
    So let's start with the good news, GW is launching 9 armies at the release of the Old World. This is a feat that GW has never done before. So, let's say GW releases new 2 heroes and 2 or 3 new units per army that would be a single army worth of singles and units. Yes, these new models are getting release with pretty good, but older, plastics and some resin and metal models.
    I would not call that the good news

    that GW meant by "best from 3rd to 8th" the models is something good for the collectors and those with existing armies that misses something

    I am not very excited about mixing again models from 5th Edition with models from 8th (because of the different design and size), without an alternative
    inconsistent model design was a reason why Warhammer did not sell well, and now we get this again, which means no new players unless those plastic are really really cheap]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537798.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537798.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    tneva82 wrote:
     Mr Morden wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
     Mr Morden wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
    Well kislev was part of empire at one time. Could be part here too.

    Was it - when was that?

    That i can't tell when they last were but one part i'm 100% sure is 5th ed kislev had units in empire book.

    Would help resource wise as less kits needed than stand alone book that needs enough units to be viable.

    Not saying that's what happens(could just be later release) but optiyn is there.

    Ah no - they are long term allies so they were included as units you could take representing the long standing alliance.

    As far as I know since the time of Sigmar, the people that inhabited Kislev have been independant - although Simgar almost wiped out the Roppsmen in an campain of brutal vengance whilst under the influence of the Crown of Nagash.

    Yea? I'm not talking about fluff but rules.

    Are you claiming kislev units not been part of empire book before? If yes you are lving. If not then you agree with me.

    Then maybe you should've included "rules" or "book" or "army" in the initial post that was quoted - reading it as talking about Kislev being part of the Empire as a geographical construct is certainly not unreasonable.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537801.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537801.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Paymaster Games wrote:
    So, let's say GW releases new 2 heroes and 2 or 3 new units per army that would be a single army worth of singles and units.


    I don't think you're going to see that much new stuff come out, personally. Actually I could have sworn they said at Warhammer Fest or something that they would be focusing on releasing new character and hero minis rather than units, but I could be wrong about that.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537802.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537802.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Paymaster Games wrote:
    OK guys lets ratchet this down quite a bit. Lets shad some much needed light into this dark hole of despair that this post has become.

    So let's start with the good news, GW is launching 9 armies at the release of the Old World. This is a feat that GW has never done before. So, let's say GW releases new 2 heroes and 2 or 3 new units per army that would be a single army worth of singles and units. Yes, these new models are getting release with pretty good, but older, plastics and some resin and metal models. Now it is important to note that, if GW did not kill WHFB most if not all of these kits they are releasing would still be on the shelves. This is a respectable release.

    Second, They are releasing ravaging hoards lists for the armies with the exception of the Dogs of War. This is good news for all of the players.


    What if in six months an update states that now only 4 armies will be available at launch, and the rest will get a low-effort Legends PDF? Still nothing but relentless good news all around? How diminished does this project have to become before people are allowed to be miffed?

    I’m just happy I’ll get easier access to toys to play 8th with (assuming I can still find opponents) but I 100% get the frustration of those hoping this was full-bore WHFB coming back.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537812.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537812.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537827.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537827.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537828.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537828.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Sarouan wrote:
    What I'm actually bothered is that this info was not offered at Warhammer Fest preview instead of the poor 2 miniatures shown. They clearly knew already that was the plan then, they didn't because they wanted to keep having stuff for the "Warhammer Community content". It's stupid, IMHO.


    I don't think GW is dumb enough to put presenters in front of eight hundred people at their largest event and have them break the good news that seven out of sixteen old armies can go suck it.

    Much better to have people voice their concerns on the Internet where it's more easily dismissed and not bring the mood at the event down.

    GW isn't Blizzard, you know.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537829.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537829.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     kodos wrote:
    and this is a reason making them pdf only instead of adding them to the books?


    They don't want to include pictures of them on round bases, and are too lazy to rebase some on the new base sizes. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537830.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537830.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! AoS. So getting models can still be doable.

    Bretonnians, Tomb Kings and High Elves, obviously they are the ones who got cut the most in AoS so need the most work to put back in production, IMHO.

    At least at the time right now. Something tells me that when Cities of Sigmar get out with their new range, suddenly a lot of Empire boxes will disappear as well. Maybe most of the elves and dwarves too.

    As for the background justification...they can always spin it the way they want since they're the creators, but still...makes sense to focus on the "main actors" of this storyline for their first wave.

    And let's be honest, it's a Specialist Game we're talking about. I still have the Necromunda and Blood Bowl experiences in mind. Meaning all factions / teams were NOT released on launch, to say the least (got to play with the pdf for quite a lot of time !). Whole armies the size of old Battle ? No way in hell. Just see how they already struggle with Horus Heresy - and it's mainly copies of Space Marines.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537837.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537837.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Sarouan wrote:

    As for the background justification...they can always spin it the way they want since they're the creators, but still...makes sense to focus on the "main actors" of this storyline for their first wave.



    Yes. The well-documented 'main actors' of the Border Princes: High elves, wood elves and chaos warriors.
    Yep.


    I'll give you minor renegade nobles of the Empire and Bretonnia (though really, Brets are just starting the Errantry Wars and are neck deep in reclaiming their own land from orcs). The dwarves are right over there.
    O&G and Beastmen tend to show up and knock things over.

    Even Khemri, I'll give them the stretch that they want things back from some period of expansion or Nagash's invasions northward.

    But elves (who have long abandoned most of their colonies) and warriors of chaos, at the nadir of the winds of magic, all the way down south?
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537838.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537838.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Voss wrote:
    Sarouan wrote:

    As for the background justification...they can always spin it the way they want since they're the creators, but still...makes sense to focus on the "main actors" of this storyline for their first wave.



    Yes. The well-documented main actors of the Border Princes: High elves, wood elves and chaos warriors.
    Yep.


    Border Princes were always the part of the Old World that was deliberately vague and "shifting" for the factions there, because that was the part where players could make "their personnal realm" for those who wanted to insert something new (and not just an army from a set region).

    They litterally could be filled with anything at the time of Battle, so it's nothing new really.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537839.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537839.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    if High Elves and Wood Elves can be there because of the background, Dark Elves and Skaven can as well

    this is just a lazy excuse and not some specific setting were not having them makes any sense]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537840.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537840.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     kodos wrote:
    yeah hence why it makes no sense to cut some faction from it but not others

    if High Elves and Wood Elves can be there because of the background, Dark Elves and Skaven can as well

    this is just a lazy excuse and not some specific setting were not having them makes any sense


    I don't agree with that. To me, books of the first wave don't necessarily mean army books. Campaign books are also a possibility - and campaigns are best with a set story and setting. And a story isn't especially better if you involve too many actors in it.

    I don't especially think it's "lazy". It's more the way they communicate I'm most critic of, not the setting they choose to focus on.

    I'm fine with "pdf" lists (well my old school mind is as long as there's a way to have a paper version somehow, TBH) as long as they give tools enough. Actually, I may just -play- with that instead of a series of "power army books" that bring nothing really good to the game.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537843.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537843.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Voss wrote:
    Sarouan wrote:

    As for the background justification...they can always spin it the way they want since they're the creators, but still...makes sense to focus on the "main actors" of this storyline for their first wave.



    Yes. The well-documented 'main actors' of the Border Princes: High elves, wood elves and chaos warriors.
    Yep.


    It's not like there were two relatively popular computer games set there, one featuring Empire vs. Skaven, one featuring Empire vs. Vampire Counts/Necromancers.

    Now that would just be silly.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537844.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537844.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     stahly wrote:
    Oh wow, the Fantasy / Old World community must be a quite sour place.

    Instead of a rehash of the old fluff you get a new setting / time period that hasn't been explored before, with new fleshed out lore. The commitment to support at least 9 classic ranges with new models, incl. the revival of two fan-favourite (but never high selling) ranges with Bretonnia and Tomb Kings. Rules for all of the other classic ranges. We know Kislev is on the horizon with a brand new range.

    Sorry, I can't see the problem here. Seems like some people can never be satisfied.


    Hard to be satisfied when your three main armies (Dark Elves, Skaven, and Lizardmen) just effectively got Squatted. Yeah, I can still use them in the game for the moment, but my feelings toward TOW is rapidly becoming 'Why bother?']]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537850.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537850.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Anyway it is clear that GW is planning on doing the Great War with Chaos first, so there going to be a Kislev army early on, just not at the release date.

    It is very likely that there will be source books for the other regions of the warhammer world. Just not time of release. I do not know what you guys were expecting, but realistic expectations was not it.

    As a Dogs of War player my self, I have to figure out what to next. All of you have army books or ravaging hoards lists coming. You all can play when the game is released, even Chaos Dwarfs. I can not. This news has not taken down my excitement for the Old World.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537855.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537855.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     stahly wrote:
    Oh wow, the Fantasy / Old World community must be a quite sour place.

    Instead of a rehash of the old fluff you get a new setting / time period that hasn't been explored before, with new fleshed out lore. The commitment to support at least 9 classic ranges with new models, incl. the revival of two fan-favourite (but never high selling) ranges with Bretonnia and Tomb Kings. Rules for all of the other classic ranges. We know Kislev is on the horizon with a brand new range.

    Sorry, I can't see the problem here. Seems like some people can never be satisfied.


    I don't why those players with the 1/3 of the armies in the setting that clearly just don't matter and won't be a part of this project beyond lip service rules should be be grateful and satisfied to not be involved, or even just interested in other areas of the lore and were hoping it was a return to the WHFB setting.

    It's some of the armies, in one part of the setting, at one time period, with no mention of expanding it to cover the rest later on. And we've only had that clarified (but its still vague) over 3 years after it was announced, and after we saw stuff outside of what this says its going to consist of.

    I don't see how that's meant to be a good thing. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537856.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537856.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537860.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537860.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Paymaster Games wrote:
    Thier is likely to be a Vampire Wars source book after the release that go into the Von Carstine's attack on the empire and Lichmaster's raids on the wood elves and Bretonnia.


    No, there is not, they said Vampire Counts are not part of the narrative™. Not 'not now' or 'until later', just 'not part'.

    Anyway it is clear that GW is planning on doing the Great War with Chaos first, so there going to be a Kislev army early on, just not at the release date.


    It's not said that they'll do the actual war, the game is set in 'the decades leading up to it' and before the rise of Asavar Kul - the Great War is something like the End Times were for a long time for classic WHFB: constantly looming on the horizon, not actually happening

    It is very likely that there will be source books for the other regions of the warhammer world. Just not time of release. I do not know what you guys were expecting, but realistic expectations was not it.


    At that point we're multiple years past the initial release, at best, if the game survives that long.


    As a Dogs of War player my self, I have to figure out what to next. All of you have army books or ravaging hoards lists coming. You all can play when the game is released, even Chaos Dwarfs. I can not. This news has not taken down my excitement for the Old World.


    That is very nice for you, but i don't think that criticism of their confused communication and shifting focus is unwarranted.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537861.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537861.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Paymaster Games wrote:
    Thier is likely to be a Vampire Wars source book after the release that go into the Von Carstine's attack on the empire and Lichmaster's raids on the wood elves and Bretonnia.

    Anyway it is clear that GW is planning on doing the Great War with Chaos first, so there going to be a Kislev army early on, just not at the release date.

    It is very likely that there will be source books for the other regions of the warhammer world. Just not time of release. I do not know what you guys were expecting, but realistic expectations was not it.

    Well given article after article on Bretonnia and the Empire, including politics and geography and lots and lots of maps, I was expecting that to be the focus. With supporting conflicts in the Errantry and Vampire Wars. Since orc holds and vampire fortresses were on said maps, and the vague timeline was pretty generally around the right period.

    Weird, right?


    I don't actually mind low support for chaos dwarfs, lizards and dark elves: they're off over there. But it doesn't work with high elves and chaos warriors as main actors in the Border Princes, because they're just as much 'off over there' as the ones getting low support. And much more so then vampires. Who are on the specifically-for-TOW maps that they've publicly shown off in their own Dev Diaries.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537862.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537862.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Paymaster Games wrote:
    Thier is likely to be a Vampire Wars source book after the release that go into the Von Carstine's attack on the empire and Lichmaster's raids on the wood elves and Bretonnia.

    Anyway it is clear that GW is planning on doing the Great War with Chaos first, so there going to be a Kislev army early on, just not at the release date.

    It is very likely that there will be source books for the other regions of the warhammer world. Just not time of release. I do not know what you guys were expecting, but realistic expectations was not it.

    As a Dogs of War player my self, I have to figure out what to next. All of you have army books or ravaging hoards lists coming. You all can play when the game is released, even Chaos Dwarfs. I can not. This news has not taken down my excitement for the Old World.


    I really don’t get making up things, like a source book, and then claiming OTHER people were not realistic. The thing you describe is quite literally not real. You made it up just now.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537866.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537866.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Paymaster Games wrote:
    Thier is likely to be a Vampire Wars source book after the release that go into the Von Carstine's attack on the empire and Lichmaster's raids on the wood elves and Bretonnia.

    Anyway it is clear that GW is planning on doing the Great War with Chaos first, so there going to be a Kislev army early on, just not at the release date.

    It is very likely that there will be source books for the other regions of the warhammer world. Just not time of release. I do not know what you guys were expecting, but realistic expectations was not it.

    As a Dogs of War player my self, I have to figure out what to next. All of you have army books or ravaging hoards lists coming. You all can play when the game is released, even Chaos Dwarfs. I can not. This news has not taken down my excitement for the Old World.


    It's not clear. If it was clear then there wouldn't be as much of a problem.

    What this article tells us is that, despite us seeing Kislev, Cathay, Vampire Counts icons etc and then being talked about previously, they aren't part of it.

    Not just at the start. Not just as the initial release. Not just starting small and expanding it to do the other stuff later. It outright tells us that [/i]this[i] is the scope of "The Old World" project and those other armies, aren't part of it beyond those free rules. This project has turned out to be 9 out of 15 or however many it is armies, in the Old World part of the map, at that specific time, with the rest of the setting "not part of the narrative" for the project and not even a mention of later expanding it to add those later.

    We're getting just a chunk of WHFB back for something that for years has been hyped as being along the lines of a return of the setting/game itself. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537867.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537867.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! gw has stated that Vampires, Kislev, and others are coming to the Old World. So it is fairly east to take them at their word, and the armies will come out in some fashion like narrative source books and all new army books. I am not making anything up. I am using what I know about GW and applying it possible future release. Allot of you have done the same.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537876.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537876.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     stahly wrote:
    Oh wow, the Fantasy / Old World community must be a quite sour place.

    Instead of a rehash of the old fluff you get a new setting/time period that hasn't been explored before, with new fleshed-out lore. The commitment to support at least 9 classic ranges with new models, incl. the revival of two fan-favorite (but never high selling) ranges with Bretonnia and Tomb Kings. Rules for all of the other classic ranges. We know Kislev is on the horizon with a brand new range.

    Sorry, I can't see the problem here. Seems like some people can never be satisfied.


    I don't understand why people who clearly aren't invested in a thing have to project a holier-than-thou attitude towards people who clearly are and voice their opinion on it. Doubly so when it includes implicitly defending a company that makes serious money off its customer base, especially one with predatory and consumer-unfriendly business practices such as Games Workshop.

    On top of that, this behavior is t is all the worse when it comes from a semi-public personality in a given community such as yourself. Even if you don't care how/if it affects your brand/image, it is very ungentlemanly.

    The fact that many people complain simply means many people care, and most of the criticism I found online hasn't been unreasonable. The vast majority of GW's "dev diary" so far has been the exact opposite of how a marketing campaign should be led, even a slow-burning, long-winded one. In addition to previous gems such as "Remember kids, the End Times totally happened and the setting is still dead as a doornail" (GW should've left that one out and simply continued supporting AoS as its main game and ToW as its secondary, as it will anyway), today's "update" follows suite.

    The biggest gripe I have with it is the wording. The current wording makes it so that the factions left ould will never get anything aside from the free rules at the beginning. Instead, they should have written that the listed factions will be the focus of the FIRST campaign book/chapter/stage of the project/whatever.

    And if the project fails before reaching the implied second/third/whichever stage, everyone still invested in it will be disappointed anyway, so it makes zero sense to disinterest a portion of your target demographic in advance. Especially since vamps/dark elves/lizardmen/ogres have fully functional ranges still sold across existing AoS armies.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537878.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537878.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW has finally come up with a plan rather than hype to hold attention/string along their remaining market share.
    IMO, of course.

    Having played Chaos Warriors/Slaves to Darkness at the beginning of AoS; I can say that playing a legacy army in a GW game sucks.
    Slowly feeling your army get comparitively less powerful and left behind is a great recipe for salt.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537882.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537882.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Paymaster Games wrote:
    While most of you are correct that this one article does at point at these armies being the focus at the time of release (per the artical). In previous articles, gw has stated that Vampires, Kislev, and others are coming to the Old World. So it is fairly east to take them at their word, and the armies will come out in some fashion like narrative source books and all new army books. I am not making anything up. I am using what I know about GW and applying it possible future release. Allot of you have done the same.


    You can keep digging the hole deeper if you want. The bottom line is there is no evidence whatsoever for the things you said. In fact the article today emphasizes the “core factions” (which suddenly doesn’t include the first army they told us was a big deal, go look at the past articles) will also be the focus of supplements.

    Saying that other people had unrealistic expectations, and supporting that premise with straight up daydreams, is wild. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537887.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537887.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW seems to have removed the "good" and "evil" labels from its list of factions, so it's a good thing they're listening to their target audience to an extent at least.

    Which also makes voicing criticism of all kinds all the more important.

    https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/23/old-world-development-diary-the-main-factions-revealed/ ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537889.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537889.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Sarouan wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    yeah hence why it makes no sense to cut some faction from it but not others

    if High Elves and Wood Elves can be there because of the background, Dark Elves and Skaven can as well

    this is just a lazy excuse and not some specific setting were not having them makes any sense


    I don't agree with that. To me, books of the first wave don't necessarily mean army books. Campaign books are also a possibility - and campaigns are best with a set story and setting. And a story isn't especially better if you involve too many actors in it.

    I don't especially think it's "lazy". It's more the way they communicate I'm most critic of, not the setting they choose to focus on.
    what else than being lazy hinders them to write those stories so that Dark Elves fit too?

    if it is only because of stories that are written that we, in a setting that does not has any stories by now, "fluff" is a lazy excuse and nothing more

    models being sold in AoS and GW wants to keep them apart is a reason, "some armies don't fit the fluff that is not yet written" is an ecuse


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Paymaster Games wrote:
    The armies not getting army books are getting Ravaging Hoards lists. You army is not getting Squatted.

    you know why Bretonnia was one of the factions that hardly anyone played?
    because they had only their Ravening Hordes List for years, so players who played the game back than know what it means if their armies only get a pdf with no future support]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537891.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537891.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537892.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537892.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     kodos wrote:
    Sarouan wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    yeah hence why it makes no sense to cut some faction from it but not others

    if High Elves and Wood Elves can be there because of the background, Dark Elves and Skaven can as well

    this is just a lazy excuse and not some specific setting were not having them makes any sense


    I don't agree with that. To me, books of the first wave don't necessarily mean army books. Campaign books are also a possibility - and campaigns are best with a set story and setting. And a story isn't especially better if you involve too many actors in it.

    I don't especially think it's "lazy". It's more the way they communicate I'm most critic of, not the setting they choose to focus on.
    what else than being lazy hinders them to write those stories so that Dark Elves fit too?

    if it is only because of stories that are written that we, in a setting that does not has any stories by now, "fluff" is a lazy excuse and nothing more

    models being sold in AoS and GW wants to keep them apart is a reason, "some armies don't fit the fluff that is not yet written" is an ecuse


    It seems like it is important to them to separate AOS and TOW as much as possible, by not doing rules for most AOS units, and by not supporting many armies that have a current AOS line. As to why it is important to them, we can only speculate, but it seems to be the case.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537893.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537893.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Paymaster Games wrote:
    While most of you are correct that this one article does at point at these armies being the focus at the time of release (per the artical). In previous articles, gw has stated that Vampires, Kislev, and others are coming to the Old World. So it is fairly east to take them at their word, and the armies will come out in some fashion like narrative source books and all new army books. I am not making anything up. I am using what I know about GW and applying it possible future release. Allot of you have done the same.


    They previously said that. Now they are saying this is what the scope of the project for the game actually is.

    They outright say Vampire Counts, Skaven etc aren't part of the narrative for "The Old World". Not just at the start or this first thing, the game itself.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537895.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537895.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537897.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537897.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    there won't be models for them, neither old nor new ones, except those that are still sold for AoS

    and we don't know how detailed the pdf lists will be (just a list with profile and base sizes, or actual army book style rules)]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537899.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537899.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537900.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537900.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    nightwolf2040 wrote:
    I am a bit confused will they still be releasing the old miniatures not on the list and just not doing new rules or miniatures or not releasing the models either?


    That is open to interpretation, but seeing how they mention new and returning kits for the 'Core factions' but say nothing about miniatures for the others, except that 'they will receive rules ... for the players that have these on their shelf' i'd interpret that as a no. A lot of kits can be straight taken or at least proxied by AOS miniatures though, if the currently-sold AOS kit is not the old WHFB kit anyway.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537901.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537901.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    1. It's referencing 8th ed armies and factions. Nothing can be taken out of it for Kislev/Cathay.

    2. It's feels like they're going to be focussing on story driven content.

    3. The story is the lead up to and the big war with chaos.

    4. In this context the game "starts" at the border princes and moves forward from there. High Elves make sense because they literally come over and help during this time.

    5. Bretonnia and Tomb Kings are included mostly because they can be their own narrative story. Tomb Kings also decently represent barrows in the borderlands and Bretonnia have errant knights running all over.

    6. The current armies all have a fairly tight narrative with each other (outside of the previously mentioned Tomb Kings).

    7. These are the armies that'll have the least crossover in AoS and need the most models to round out their lines. Models with 90% of their lines (skaven, lizards, ogres, dark elves) make total sense to leave out of the initial waves.

    I think we'll see it start and as the narrative expands they'll add factions. They need this to go somewhere and that's the easiest way. Stories told around 2 factions with an existing one and a new one released and incorporated into the game.

    They've done a great job with Heresy. Maybe we give them a little leeway with this?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537916.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537916.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Hulksmash wrote:
    So here is my perspective on the article;


    7. These are the armies that'll have the least crossover in AoS and need the most models to round out their lines. Models with 90% of their lines (skaven, lizards, ogres, dark elves) make total sense to leave out of the initial waves.

    I think we'll see it start and as the narrative expands they'll add factions. They need this to go somewhere and that's the easiest way. Stories told around 2 factions with an existing one and a new one released and incorporated into the game.


    Except the wording of this article isn't that this is the initial stuff, it says the game itself won't have Skaven/Dark Elves/Vampire Counts etc as part of what they're doing with it even as it develops through more books and such. Not just at the start, but overall.

    The Old World as a project/game is these 9 armies, in the Old World Continent, at that time period. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537918.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537918.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537919.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537919.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    and the non listed faction are left out because they did not play a role in that 100 years the narrative game covers

    not the first wave is war against chaos with 9 factions and the other factions will be done in the next wave
    nothing in the article writes anything like that

    it is the 9 factions and the first wave is border princess narrative books]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537923.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537923.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    MaxT wrote:
    It literally says first wave dude


    In a different part of the article. The part about factions not being part of the game is separate and in no way says these only won’t be part of the initial wave. It says, and this is a literal quote “not part of the narrative we’re telling with the Old World.”]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537925.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537925.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     kodos wrote:
    yeah, first wave are the border princess and the last wave being siege of praag

    and the non listed faction are left out because they did not play a role in that 100 years the narrative game covers

    not the first wave is war against chaos with 9 factions and the other factions will be done in the next wave
    nothing in the article writes anything like that

    it is the 9 factions and the first wave is border princess narrative books


    This is exactly my point. In order for the storyline to move forward, Kislev will have to be introduced. Sooner as opposed to later. I would not surprised if Kislev shows up within a year of the initial release. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537927.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537927.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
     Hulksmash wrote:
    So here is my perspective on the article;


    7. These are the armies that'll have the least crossover in AoS and need the most models to round out their lines. Models with 90% of their lines (skaven, lizards, ogres, dark elves) make total sense to leave out of the initial waves.

    I think we'll see it start and as the narrative expands they'll add factions. They need this to go somewhere and that's the easiest way. Stories told around 2 factions with an existing one and a new one released and incorporated into the game.


    Except the wording of this article isn't that this is the initial stuff, it says the game itself won't have Skaven/Dark Elves/Vampire Counts etc as part of what they're doing with it even as it develops through more books and such. Not just at the start, but overall.

    The Old World as a project/game is these 9 armies, in the Old World Continent, at that time period.


    It literally does though…

    This week we wanted to take a look at which factions will feature most prominently in the game.

    …

    Much of the action in the first wave of books and supplements takes place in and around the Border Princes

    …

    These armies will have rules published alongside the launch of the Old World, and will be the pivotal players in the events covered in narrative expansions and supplements.


    Emphasis mine.

    It also hints that Skaven and Daemons, who don’t feature in this initial wave will feature later in the narrative:

    The Skaven re-emerged only after the Horned Rat himself was summoned at Skavenblight to end the strife and instil new purpose into his children (this ties in with the wider rise of Chaos and the destruction wrought by Asavar Kul), turning them into a new power in the world.

    …

    When Asavar Kul rises to become the 12th Everchosen, the power of Chaos will build again, but we won’t see daemonic servants of individual gods for a while yet.


    Though it’s also worth noting that, Chaos aside, the races in the initial wave are all ones missing large portions (if not all) of their range in contemporary AoS (and the stamps a few pages back seem to indicate the rest of the current Cities of Sigmar units will switch across soon).

    Other than Chaos Dwarfs, the ones not being focussed on have complete ranges currently sold in AoS, some very recently updated. Therefore they’re not really in need of new/re-released models and indeed buying models for them would be counted as an AoS sale not a TOW sale which is not great for the game’s stats.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537928.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537928.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Paymaster Games wrote:
    This is exactly my point. In order for the storyline to move forward, Kislev will have to be introduced. Sooner as opposed to later. I would not surprised if Kislev shows up within a year of the initial release.


    Why?

    I mean if its narrative led, we don't need to get to Praag until the end of things.
    I think this could well be like "Horus Heresy I", "Horus Heresy II", "Horus Heresy III" etc.
    They've planned out say the first 2-3 books and it will cover era-valid army lists for the 9 factions. Everyone outside can get stuffed.
    That sounds silly - but then Xenos could have easily been brought into HH but they never did because they didn't want to.

    We might not see Kislev until "TOW: Siege of Praag" coming to a store near you circa 2030.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537929.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537929.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    MaxT wrote:
    It literally says first wave dude


    Lord Zarkov wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
     Hulksmash wrote:
    So here is my perspective on the article;


    7. These are the armies that'll have the least crossover in AoS and need the most models to round out their lines. Models with 90% of their lines (skaven, lizards, ogres, dark elves) make total sense to leave out of the initial waves.

    I think we'll see it start and as the narrative expands they'll add factions. They need this to go somewhere and that's the easiest way. Stories told around 2 factions with an existing one and a new one released and incorporated into the game.


    Except the wording of this article isn't that this is the initial stuff, it says the game itself won't have Skaven/Dark Elves/Vampire Counts etc as part of what they're doing with it even as it develops through more books and such. Not just at the start, but overall.

    The Old World as a project/game is these 9 armies, in the Old World Continent, at that time period.


    It literally does though…

    This week we wanted to take a look at which factions will feature most prominently in the game.

    …

    Much of the action in the first wave of books and supplements takes place in and around the Border Princes

    …

    These armies will have rules published alongside the launch of the Old World, and will be the pivotal players in the events covered in narrative expansions and supplements.


    Emphasis mine.

    It also hints that Skaven and Daemons, who don’t feature in this initial wave will feature later in the narrative:

    The Skaven re-emerged only after the Horned Rat himself was summoned at Skavenblight to end the strife and instil new purpose into his children (this ties in with the wider rise of Chaos and the destruction wrought by Asavar Kul), turning them into a new power in the world.

    …

    When Asavar Kul rises to become the 12th Everchosen, the power of Chaos will build again, but we won’t see daemonic servants of individual gods for a while yet.


    Though it’s also worth noting that, Chaos aside, the races in the initial wave are all ones missing large portions (if not all) of their range in contemporary AoS (and the stamps a few pages back seem to indicate the rest of the current Cities of Sigmar units will switch across soon).

    Other than Chaos Dwarfs, the ones not being focussed on have complete ranges currently sold in AoS, some very recently updated. Therefore they’re not really in need of new/re-released models and indeed buying models for them would be counted as an AoS sale not a TOW sale which is not great for the game’s stats.


    No, it doesn't. It says the Border Prince stuff is the first wave with the initial books are focusing on that, with those 9 armies being the focus even in expansions/supplements.

    It then outright says the game itself will consist of those 9 armies and the rest aren't part of it beyond those free rules. Not just for the first wave, but they aren't part of the "narrative for The Old World" itself.

    Certain factions people remember from Warhammer Fantasy Battles are not part of the narrative we’re telling with The Old World, but will be provided with rules at the launch of the game.


    Not just the initial launch. What they're doing with The Old World overall doesn't feature them. The Old World as a game/project, doesn't involve those other armies.

    Those last few quotes/paragraphs of the article aren't saying they're coming eventually. It's from a lore perspective. It's the lore reason they aren't part of this game, and what eventually gets them to appear again - it's not saying that is what's coming.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537931.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537931.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Mentlegen324 wrote:


    Except the wording of this article isn't that this is the initial stuff, it says the game itself won't have Skaven/Dark Elves/Vampire Counts etc as part of what they're doing with it even as it develops through more books and such. Not just at the start, but overall.

    The Old World as a project/game is these 9 armies, in the Old World Continent, at that time period.

    Has a careful reading of GW's wording ever been a good way to figure out what they mean?

    Not to mention that what they might mean with regards to this project clearly being subject to change ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537934.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537934.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     DarkBlack wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:


    Except the wording of this article isn't that this is the initial stuff, it says the game itself won't have Skaven/Dark Elves/Vampire Counts etc as part of what they're doing with it even as it develops through more books and such. Not just at the start, but overall.

    The Old World as a project/game is these 9 armies, in the Old World Continent, at that time period.

    Has a careful reading of GW's wording ever been a good way to figure out what they mean?

    Not to mention that what they might mean with regards to this project clearly being subject to change


    It's not a "careful reading" when they outright say it. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537936.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537936.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    We can finally put a few things to bed in that regard at least. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537939.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537939.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Mentlegen324 wrote:
    MaxT wrote:
    It literally says first wave dude


    Lord Zarkov wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
     Hulksmash wrote:
    So here is my perspective on the article;


    7. These are the armies that'll have the least crossover in AoS and need the most models to round out their lines. Models with 90% of their lines (skaven, lizards, ogres, dark elves) make total sense to leave out of the initial waves.

    I think we'll see it start and as the narrative expands they'll add factions. They need this to go somewhere and that's the easiest way. Stories told around 2 factions with an existing one and a new one released and incorporated into the game.


    Except the wording of this article isn't that this is the initial stuff, it says the game itself won't have Skaven/Dark Elves/Vampire Counts etc as part of what they're doing with it even as it develops through more books and such. Not just at the start, but overall.

    The Old World as a project/game is these 9 armies, in the Old World Continent, at that time period.


    It literally does though…

    This week we wanted to take a look at which factions will feature most prominently in the game.

    …

    Much of the action in the first wave of books and supplements takes place in and around the Border Princes

    …

    These armies will have rules published alongside the launch of the Old World, and will be the pivotal players in the events covered in narrative expansions and supplements.


    Emphasis mine.

    It also hints that Skaven and Daemons, who don’t feature in this initial wave will feature later in the narrative:

    The Skaven re-emerged only after the Horned Rat himself was summoned at Skavenblight to end the strife and instil new purpose into his children (this ties in with the wider rise of Chaos and the destruction wrought by Asavar Kul), turning them into a new power in the world.

    …

    When Asavar Kul rises to become the 12th Everchosen, the power of Chaos will build again, but we won’t see daemonic servants of individual gods for a while yet.


    Though it’s also worth noting that, Chaos aside, the races in the initial wave are all ones missing large portions (if not all) of their range in contemporary AoS (and the stamps a few pages back seem to indicate the rest of the current Cities of Sigmar units will switch across soon).

    Other than Chaos Dwarfs, the ones not being focussed on have complete ranges currently sold in AoS, some very recently updated. Therefore they’re not really in need of new/re-released models and indeed buying models for them would be counted as an AoS sale not a TOW sale which is not great for the game’s stats.


    No, it doesn't. It says the Border Prince stuff is the first wave with the initial books are focusing on that, with those 9 armies being the focus even in expansions/supplements.

    It then outright says the game itself will consist of those 9 armies and the rest aren't part of it beyond those free rules. Not just for the first wave, but they aren't part of the "narrative for The Old World" itself.

    Certain factions people remember from Warhammer Fantasy Battles are not part of the narrative we’re telling with The Old World, but will be provided with rules at the launch of the game.


    Not just the initial launch. What they're doing with The Old World overall doesn't feature them. The Old World as a game/project, doesn't involve those other armies.

    Those last few quotes/paragraphs of the article aren't saying they're coming eventually. It's from a lore perspective. It's the lore reason they aren't part of this game, and what eventually gets them to appear again - it's not saying that is what's coming.



    I think you’re reading into it too much. Even back at the Cathay teases it implied waves, saying they would be there eventually but not on release.

    On the last point, they’ve said previously that the aim is to work up to Asavar Kul’s invasion. So IMO an explicit statement of ‘these races are connected to Asavar Kul’s invasion’ is definitely a hint they may show up later.

    Tyel wrote:
     Paymaster Games wrote:
    This is exactly my point. In order for the storyline to move forward, Kislev will have to be introduced. Sooner as opposed to later. I would not surprised if Kislev shows up within a year of the initial release.


    Why?

    I mean if its narrative led, we don't need to get to Praag until the end of things.
    I think this could well be like "Horus Heresy I", "Horus Heresy II", "Horus Heresy III" etc.
    They've planned out say the first 2-3 books and it will cover era-valid army lists for the 9 factions. Everyone outside can get stuffed.
    That sounds silly - but then Xenos could have easily been brought into HH but they never did because they didn't want to.

    We might not see Kislev until "TOW: Siege of Praag" coming to a store near you circa 2030.


    IMO different waves will probably be different theatres and times within the window.

    So perhaps 1-2 years for this initial release ‘welcome back to TOW and all the ranges we previously chopped’

    Next phase probably something further north with Kislev.

    Then probably Cathay’s Northern border (like TW:WH3’s RoC map’s Cathay section). Maybe Ogres and/or Chaos Dwarfs will come back here?

    Then a different vignette- maybe something else new.

    Etc
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537940.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537940.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     BertBert wrote:
    I'm a bit surprised to see wood elves in there, but I don't hate it. Start with a smaller roster of supported factions and expand down the line. At least we are getting some solid info this time around.
    They're smack bang in the middle of everything between the Brets and the Empire. It would be weird to not have them there.

    Think of the big map from Total War Warhammer III. The Dark Lands were essentially this big empty "watch this space" for ages with a few random Orc tribes in there until the Chaos Dwarf DLC hit, then suddenly the entire area was filled with the faction that should be there. Can you imagine Athel Loren just being empty?

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537941.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537941.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! IC, besieging it until the Baron begs for forgiveness.

    https://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Eonir



    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537942.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537942.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537943.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537943.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Spoiler:
    Lord Zarkov wrote:
    Mentlegen324 wrote:
    MaxT wrote:
    It literally says first wave dude


    Lord Zarkov wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
     Hulksmash wrote:
    So here is my perspective on the article;


    7. These are the armies that'll have the least crossover in AoS and need the most models to round out their lines. Models with 90% of their lines (skaven, lizards, ogres, dark elves) make total sense to leave out of the initial waves.

    I think we'll see it start and as the narrative expands they'll add factions. They need this to go somewhere and that's the easiest way. Stories told around 2 factions with an existing one and a new one released and incorporated into the game.


    Except the wording of this article isn't that this is the initial stuff, it says the game itself won't have Skaven/Dark Elves/Vampire Counts etc as part of what they're doing with it even as it develops through more books and such. Not just at the start, but overall.

    The Old World as a project/game is these 9 armies, in the Old World Continent, at that time period.


    It literally does though…

    This week we wanted to take a look at which factions will feature most prominently in the game.

    …

    Much of the action in the first wave of books and supplements takes place in and around the Border Princes

    …

    These armies will have rules published alongside the launch of the Old World, and will be the pivotal players in the events covered in narrative expansions and supplements.


    Emphasis mine.

    It also hints that Skaven and Daemons, who don’t feature in this initial wave will feature later in the narrative:

    The Skaven re-emerged only after the Horned Rat himself was summoned at Skavenblight to end the strife and instil new purpose into his children (this ties in with the wider rise of Chaos and the destruction wrought by Asavar Kul), turning them into a new power in the world.

    …

    When Asavar Kul rises to become the 12th Everchosen, the power of Chaos will build again, but we won’t see daemonic servants of individual gods for a while yet.


    Though it’s also worth noting that, Chaos aside, the races in the initial wave are all ones missing large portions (if not all) of their range in contemporary AoS (and the stamps a few pages back seem to indicate the rest of the current Cities of Sigmar units will switch across soon).

    Other than Chaos Dwarfs, the ones not being focussed on have complete ranges currently sold in AoS, some very recently updated. Therefore they’re not really in need of new/re-released models and indeed buying models for them would be counted as an AoS sale not a TOW sale which is not great for the game’s stats.


    No, it doesn't. It says the Border Prince stuff is the first wave with the initial books are focusing on that, with those 9 armies being the focus even in expansions/supplements.

    It then outright says the game itself will consist of those 9 armies and the rest aren't part of it beyond those free rules. Not just for the first wave, but they aren't part of the "narrative for The Old World" itself.

    Certain factions people remember from Warhammer Fantasy Battles are not part of the narrative we’re telling with The Old World, but will be provided with rules at the launch of the game.


    Not just the initial launch. What they're doing with The Old World overall doesn't feature them. The Old World as a game/project, doesn't involve those other armies.

    Those last few quotes/paragraphs of the article aren't saying they're coming eventually. It's from a lore perspective. It's the lore reason they aren't part of this game, and what eventually gets them to appear again - it's not saying that is what's coming.



    saying they would be there eventually but not on release.

    On the last point, they’ve said previously that the aim is to work up to Asavar Kul’s invasion.



    A quote for either of those things would be helpful. I don't remember either of those being stated.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537945.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537945.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
    I’ll bet $5 this won’t get more than one real wave. At least not by 2025.
    Why do you assume that this is DOA?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537946.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537946.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
     DarkBlack wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:


    Except the wording of this article isn't that this is the initial stuff, it says the game itself won't have Skaven/Dark Elves/Vampire Counts etc as part of what they're doing with it even as it develops through more books and such. Not just at the start, but overall.

    The Old World as a project/game is these 9 armies, in the Old World Continent, at that time period.

    Has a careful reading of GW's wording ever been a good way to figure out what they mean?

    Not to mention that what they might mean with regards to this project clearly being subject to change


    It's not a "careful reading" when they outright say it.


    It’s hard to discuss with folks when we are now discounting the actual words that were written. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537954.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537954.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    The only "sub" game that might not have performed to expectations is aeronautica but even that has had a ton of expansions and models.

    People need to breathe a bit. GW has a really solid track record with their games and support now.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537955.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537955.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     H.B.M.C. wrote:
     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
    I’ll bet $5 this won’t get more than one real wave. At least not by 2025.
    Why do you assume that this is DOA?


    It sounds like GW is walking back all the promises that made TOW enticing in the first place. The first wave will apparently consist of old plastics that weren’t selling in 2010 prices and halfhearted Forgeworld resins. The rules will doubtlessly be divisive, unless they are universally considered awful. Whoever is marketing TOW is fudging up royal. Upper management is regaining its reputation for unreasonable expectations and demands. Each year sees less expendable income for 90% of the market. Put it all together, and this looks like a turkey.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537957.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537957.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! AoS, and those who thought they were fine.

    I wonder if the reaction is what has made GW shelf them, and instead focus more on this game being a soft reboot of WFB as it stood (miniature wise) at the end of 8th? There does seem to be a marked difference in the updates, with the more recent ones feeling a lot more like the old WFB we knew and loved, and less a new take on WFB. Either way, the news that we are getting 9 full factions at launch, and 7 legacy factions pdf's from day one.

    The only factions that won't be playable seem to be Chaos Daemons (which they explain why), Dogs of War, and Kislev... who may or may not be in the Empire of Man list.

    What I am interested in knowing is whether the Empire of Man list is going to reflect the old Empire from 5th edition, which could take Ogres, Dwarfs, and Halflings. Or be more like the 6th edition and onwards, which was purely Men. I bet the name is a clue to the direction the design team are going, just would be nice to see the Empire being the Empire I remember from my youth.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537958.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537958.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
    It sounds like GW is walking back all the promises that made TOW enticing in the first place.


    I haven't seen any "walking back all the promises". I have seen a lot of people being upset that the assumptions they themselves made and have presented as "things that were said" aren't present in the actual things GW have said about it.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537966.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537966.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Platuan4th wrote:
     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
    It sounds like GW is walking back all the promises that made TOW enticing in the first place.


    I haven't seen any "walking back all the promises". I have seen a lot of people being upset that the assumptions they themselves made and have presented as "things that were said" aren't present in the actual things GW have said about it.


    Kislev and Cathay weren’t promises? Also, who is to blame for so many having “ideas” about what is promised? GW, with their crappy communication. Giving mixed signals and then blaming the customers for their confusion is not a winning strategy. Nor does a product that requires a community to thrive build a community with toxic defenders blaming everyone trying to engage with the product for misunderstanding communiques that were vague at best.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537971.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537971.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537975.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537975.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! Old World has been vaporware from the start. There's nothing of the game to show after some four years, and it's about a decade too late for anyone with any sense to still care. Better rank and file games (like Kings of War, a likely catalyst for ToW's announcement) exist, as do eight different versions of WHFB that are timecapsuled forever. Who in their right mind would pay GW's prices for the barely-existant ToW when those alternatives already exist, accomodating all of your armies rather than an arbitrary nine? Who on earth is trusting GW with anything WHFB related ever again after seeing how shoddily they handle it, both in 2015 and clearly ever since? Don't fall for GW's half-arsed attempt to string people along and sell you the ashes of the Fantasy they burned.
    They made their Age of Steaming Goat-Soil bed, they can go and lie in it.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537990.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537990.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Didn't abandon the game because Lizardmen or Ogre Kingdoms weren't available right away.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537999.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11537999.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    When Total War Warhammer came out there was a promise that we'd eventually get everyone. Took a while, but they showed up.

    Didn't abandon the game because Lizardmen or Ogre Kingdoms weren't available right away.


    The messaging there was a lot more clear.

    I'm really not sure at this point whether Kislev/Cathay are coming alongside the old lines being resurrected, whether they're coming at some point in the future, or if they're not currently planned at all.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538000.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538000.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     MalusCalibur wrote:
    Judging by how the more niche Specialist Games have been going, and with such a flimsy idea of what it even *is*, it'll die off almost as soon as it starts - when did you last see a major release for Titanicus? Can you even still *buy* Aeronautica? And those are the best case examples of ToW's future.

    - Necromunda (N17) saw significant releases in 2022 with the massive Ash Wastes box set, Nomads gang, Ridgehauler and vehicle upgrades for three gangs, Squats in plastic for the first time since... they were squatted.

    - Aeronautica saw a campaign book, the Custodes aircraft, Aeldari Wraithfighters and Interceptors (both in plastic), and the Necron fliers.

    - Titanicus (AT18) did have a smaller release with the Dire Wolf, and some weapon upgrades but it was still something.

    Yep, these games obviously died off as soon as they started (which is why they still have new stuff being released four or five years later).

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538001.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538001.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    'The two factions we've discussed heavily in our TOW coverage, Kislev and Cathay, will be showing up full steam in the near future after we cover all the existing ones.'

    Or something like that. They literally left out two factions they were pushing when discussing factions. That's a pretty significant mixed message
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538003.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538003.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Hellebore wrote:
    Or something like that. They literally left out two factions they were pushing when discussing factions. That's a pretty significant mixed message
    Because TWW3 was coming out, and they do contain Kislev and Cathay. It was a rare moment of cross-promotion, where GW could talk about something they were doing in context of a licensed product that was about to come out.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538004.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538004.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     H.B.M.C. wrote:
     Hellebore wrote:
    Or something like that. They literally left out two factions they were pushing when discussing factions. That's a pretty significant mixed message
    Because TWW3 was coming out, and they do contain Kislev and Cathay. It was a rare moment of cross-promotion, where GW could talk about something they were doing in context of a licensed product that was about to come out.


    So, GW could discuss them for the Old World because both were releasing (though not for the Old World any time soon considering those posts were from 20 and 21). Now that they have released in total war, GW cannot discuss them any longer for the Old World. Can't even say, Kislev and Cathay are coming soon, coming later, or coming tomorrow. Right got it. Great explanation.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538005.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538005.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     H.B.M.C. wrote:
     Hellebore wrote:
    Or something like that. They literally left out two factions they were pushing when discussing factions. That's a pretty significant mixed message
    Because TWW3 was coming out, and they do contain Kislev and Cathay. It was a rare moment of cross-promotion, where GW could talk about something they were doing in context of a licensed product that was about to come out.


    Right, but... it now looks like there's no cross promotion at all. If Kislev and Cathay ever do happen, it will be years after TW3 came out. Possibly even after it stops getting content. IF they happen.

    [quote=PaymasterThis article was really about which existing factions were being brought into the Old World and not about the new ones due to come out in the future.
    Right, because:
    These armies will have rules published alongside the launch of the Old World, and will be the pivotal players in the events covered in narrative expansions and supplements

    The planned expansions and supplements (which in GW-speak is usually books) will focus on the same 9 armies.

    Further..
    The game will be set firmly within the Old World itself – the lands between the coast of Bretonnia to the west and the Worlds Edge Mountains to the east – during the decades immediately before the Great War Against Chaos and the Siege of Praag.

    Last I checked, Cathay is beyond those very specific borders. Chaos Dwarfs are beyond those borders. Lizardmen, Dark elves, etc. High elves too, but they apparently don't count, because they maybe havean embassy in Marienburg and sometimes talk to the wood elves in this period. There's an extensive campaign (20+ years) against Morghur the Shadowgave in the century leading up to the Siege of Praag, and the high elves help a bit. In fact its one of many things going on in this period (like the Errantry Wars) that are centered in Athel Loren and Bretonnia itself and give them all very solid lore reasons not to be faffing about in the Border Princes... ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538008.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538008.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Paymaster Games wrote:
    Thier is likely to be a Vampire Wars source book after the release that go into the Von Carstine's attack on the empire and Lichmaster's raids on the wood elves and Bretonnia.

    Anyway it is clear that GW is planning on doing the Great War with Chaos first, so there going to be a Kislev army early on, just not at the release date.

    It is very likely that there will be source books for the other regions of the warhammer world. Just not time of release. I do not know what you guys were expecting, but realistic expectations was not it.



    The article literally says that the GAME - not the "first wave" or the "initial narrative", but the *whole thing* - is set AFTER the Vampire Wars and BEFORE the Great War and Siege of Praag (the article literally emphasizes that point on 3 separate occasions), and that the Vampire Counts, amongst others "are not part of the narrative we’re telling with The Old World". You couldn't ask for a more clear cut and straight forward statement that something won't be done if you begged. GW didn't put out a whole ass article explaining what the scope of the game is and incite nerd rage in the process only to do the exact thing they said they wouldn't do a few months later. Let's not continue to shift goalposts and spin TOW into something that it clearly isn't and continue to give people false expectations, let's take GW at their literal fething word and understand that when they say these factions won't see support in the game, they mean it - at least as far as the next 5-10 years are concerned, k?

    As far as Kislev is concerned, they don't need to do the Great War and Siege of Praag to insert them into the game. There's plenty of other narrative for them to be involved in. As for "other regions"... we know we're getting Cathay, but there were various fluff hints over the years voa TWW3 development that the forces of Cathay may be narratively coming to the Old World (as in the continent) rather than the other way around. The article is clear that THE GAME is set "firmly" on the Old World continent, bounded "between the coast of Bretonnia to the west and the Worlds Edge Mountains to the east". Again you couldn't ask for a more clear cut definition of what the scope of the product is. They aren't saying this is the "initial narrative" or "the first wave", they are saying this is the whole thing. They even make it a point to say that certain factions are excludes because they are physically too far away to be involved.

     Mentlegen324 wrote:
     Paymaster Games wrote:
    Thier is likely to be a Vampire Wars source book after the release that go into the Von Carstine's attack on the empire and Lichmaster's raids on the wood elves and Bretonnia.

    Anyway it is clear that GW is planning on doing the Great War with Chaos first, so there going to be a Kislev army early on, just not at the release date.

    It is very likely that there will be source books for the other regions of the warhammer world. Just not time of release. I do not know what you guys were expecting, but realistic expectations was not it.

    As a Dogs of War player my self, I have to figure out what to next. All of you have army books or ravaging hoards lists coming. You all can play when the game is released, even Chaos Dwarfs. I can not. This news has not taken down my excitement for the Old World.


    It's not clear. If it was clear then there wouldn't be as much of a problem.

    What this article tells us is that, despite us seeing Kislev, Cathay, Vampire Counts icons etc and then being talked about previously, they aren't part of it.

    Not just at the start. Not just as the initial release. Not just starting small and expanding it to do the other stuff later. It outright tells us that [/i]this is the scope of "The Old World" project and those other armies, aren't part of it beyond those free rules. This project has turned out to be 9 out of 15 or however many it is armies, in the Old World part of the map, at that specific time, with the rest of the setting "not part of the narrative" for the project and not even a mention of later expanding it to add those later.

    We're getting just a chunk of WHFB back for something that for years has been hyped as being along the lines of a return of the setting/game itself.


    OK, hold up. The article is explicit about what *isnt* coming to the game, BUT that does not mean that things not on the list are also excluded. The article defines the 9 factions known to be in it as the "Core" factions, which implies the existence of non-core factions.These are the main characters in the story and will be the focus of development of the game, in much the same way that 18 Spave Marine legions are the Core factions and main focus of the Horis Heresy - but that doesn't preclude Mechanicum or Custodes from existing, it just means they don't get as much attention and development as the Space Marine legions. We know we are getting Kislev and Cathay, but they are likely to be one-off releases with limited further support and development beyond their initial release. The 9 core factions can be reasonably expected to see regular updates throughout the life of the project - Kislev might see support through a hypothetical "troll invasion" narrative arc, but then when the narrative moves to the "war of three peninsulas" between Bretonnia, Tilea, and Estalia they won't get any more updates and instead you might see Estalian and Tilean armies and a return of Dogs of War.

    In short, the correct interpretation of the article is - if it's one of the 9 "Core" factions, they definitely will be in the game, if it's one of the other factions listed it definitely won't be in the game, if it's not mentioned at all - then it could reasonably exist.

    ALSO. It's probably worth mentioning that the exclusion of Vampire Counts or Skaven or whatever doesn't fully exclude related concepts from the game. "Vampire Counts" might not be present, but "the Vampiric Host of Mousillon" or "Zombie Pirates of the Vampire Coast" (for example, not sure if they fit timeline/setting, just illustrating the idea of things that are not Vampire Counts but VC-like if you squint" can be, as they aren't technically traditional "Vampire Counts" armies like we may remember from WHFB and may have different aesthetics and themes, while still being VC adjacent.

     Paymaster Games wrote:
    While most of you are correct that this one article does at point at these armies being the focus at the time of release (per the artical). In previous articles, gw has stated that Vampires, Kislev, and others are coming to the Old World. So it is fairly east to take them at their word, and the armies will come out in some fashion like narrative source books and all new army books. I am not making anything up. I am using what I know about GW and applying it possible future release. Allot of you have done the same.


    No, the article says these armies are outside the scope of *THE GAME* - very literally and exactly so. Nothing there about "at time of release" - you are literally making up and inserting that qualifier yourself where it dies not otherwise exist.

    And you are right, GW did say Vampires, Kislev, and others are coming to the game - and this article is consistent with that. Vampires are getting a pdf army list, they are in the game, GW has met the obligation of what they told us they would do (if you go back and look at those past statements you'll actually find them to be consistent with that BTW, they were clear that they would be playable, they didn't really say how or to what extent). Likewise Kislev isn't mentioned in the article at all, which is effectively admission via omission. Unfortunately, your stance otherwise is making stuff up and reading in statements that either don't exist or run directly contrary to explicit statements made. Reading is fundamental, as they say.

    MaxT wrote:
    It literally says first wave dude


    You should go read the article again, as in the whole damn thing, and pay very close attention to the wording. It does say that the first wave is narratively focused on the Border Princes, but it does not say that the excluded armies are only out for "the first wave". Instead it says they do not fit the location nor timeline of "THE GAME". Clear as glass. They even go on to explain in pretty deep detail how these factions are all in hiding, nonexistent, or too far away and uninterested in events occurring within the very strictly defined geographic area of THE GAME within the x-hundred year narrative period that THE GAME is set in.


    Lord Zarkov wrote:

    It also hints that Skaven and Daemons, who don’t feature in this initial wave will feature later in the narrative:

    The Skaven re-emerged only after the Horned Rat himself was summoned at Skavenblight to end the strife and instil new purpose into his children (this ties in with the wider rise of Chaos and the destruction wrought by Asavar Kul), turning them into a new power in the world.

    …

    When Asavar Kul rises to become the 12th Everchosen, the power of Chaos will build again, but we won’t see daemonic servants of individual gods for a while yet.


    Though it’s also worth noting that, Chaos aside, the races in the initial wave are all ones missing large portions (if not all) of their range in contemporary AoS (and the stamps a few pages back seem to indicate the rest of the current Cities of Sigmar units will switch across soon).


    If I told you "this thing is set before this major event", why would you assume that the event is in scope for that thing? They tell you that the game is set in the period BEFORE the Great War and the Siege of Praag no less than 3 separate times in that article. That means the narrative, as far as the game is concerned, will *never* get to the point where Asavar Kul rises, because the narrative scope of the game ends before that occurs.



    Other than Chaos Dwarfs, the ones not being focussed on have complete ranges currently sold in AoS, some very recently updated. Therefore they’re not really in need of new/re-released models and indeed buying models for them would be counted as an AoS sale not a TOW sale which is not great for the game’s stats.


    The article explicitly states that the new stuff released for these factions in AoS will not be given rules in The Old World, so that kind if pokes a hole in your argument, doesn't it?

    caladancid wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
     DarkBlack wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:


    Except the wording of this article isn't that this is the initial stuff, it says the [i]game itself won't have Skaven/Dark Elves/Vampire Counts etc as part of what they're doing with it even as it develops through more books and such. Not just at the start, but overall.

    The Old World as a project/game is these 9 armies, in the Old World Continent, at that time period.

    Has a careful reading of GW's wording ever been a good way to figure out what they mean?

    Not to mention that what they might mean with regards to this project clearly being subject to change


    It's not a "careful reading" when they outright say it.


    It’s hard to discuss with folks when we are now discounting the actual words that were written.


    Amen, the copium and denialism is strong with some of these guys. That being said, a few are doing the same by assuming this article precludes Kislev and Cathay - it doesn't.

     Hulksmash wrote:
    People said similar stuff about necromunda and only 4 initial gangs came out. Same with titanicus and just 2 titan frames.

    The only "sub" game that might not have performed to expectations is aeronautica but even that has had a ton of expansions and models.

    People need to breathe a bit. GW has a really solid track record with their games and support now.


    In the case of both Necromunda and Titanicus GW never made any claim that those games would be limited to just the things you indicated. In fact if you go far enough back you find explicit statements and teases that *more* was going to come, and *no* explicit statements about things that are currently included in those games being excluded. Aeronautical Imperialis is the same, they told us how many factions they had planned for release into the game, and to date their releases have remained consistent with that statement. Until they add Chaos or tyranids (or any other factions currently without minis and rules) they are consistent with what they communicated - although even then they qualified the faction count was what they had planned "currently", implying the possibility of more later. No such qualifications exists here.

     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    When Total War Warhammer came out there was a promise that we'd eventually get everyone. Took a while, but they showed up.

    Didn't abandon the game because Lizardmen or Ogre Kingdoms weren't available right away.


    Where do you see the promise that The Old World will also eventually see support for everyone? This article is basically the opposite of that - you'll get your pdf so you can play, but that's the extent of the support those factions will be getting, with essentially a promise that those factions will not be touched again because they aren't the Old World enough for this specific time and place in the Old World.

     Hellebore wrote:
    All they had to say in this announcement about factions is:

    'The two factions we've discussed heavily in our TOW coverage, Kislev and Cathay, will be showing up full steam in the near future after we cover all the existing ones.'

    Or something like that. They literally left out two factions they were pushing when discussing factions. That's a pretty significant mixed message


    Because they aren't entirely relevant to the subject of the article, which is the core factions of the game which will see primary and continued support, as well as the status of the other old WHFB factions, which Cathay never was and Kislev only kind of vaguely was at one small point in the games past. Also as we learned at Warhammer Fest they are not part of the initial release of the game, but presumably will make their way in sometime later. "Admission by ommission" - they aren't mentioned, doesn't mean they aren't included, they just aren't "core" and not part of the initial release, thus they will need to wait until their part in the narrative becomes rrelevant. No sense really bringing them up when they are still in development and probably months or years behind the games launch.



    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538011.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538011.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538013.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538013.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    My reasoning for this is that the article states that they aren't looking to release rules for age of sigmar stuff, so that would *seem* to put a big X over some of the new lizardman stuff... maybe?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538014.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538014.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Voss wrote:
    Right, but... it now looks like there's no cross promotion at all.
    Well of course not. GW never misses and opportunity to miss an opportunity, and the opportunities they miss the most often are cross-promotional activities (hence why I said a "rare" example of cross-promotion). The fact that they've managed to let TWW1, 2 and 3 come out with nary a tie-in miniature or campaign is testament to how bad they are at this.

    Voss wrote:
    If Kislev and Cathay ever do happen, it will be years after TW3 came out. Possibly even after it stops getting content. IF they happen.
    "If they happen". Where's this doom and gloom coming from. Why are you immediately assuming that this whole project is DoA?

    Voss wrote:
    Where do you see the promise that The Old World will also eventually see support for everyone? This article is basically the opposite of that - you'll get your pdf so you can play, but that's the extent of the support those factions will be getting, with essentially a promise that those factions will not be touched again because they aren't the Old World enough for this specific time and place in the Old World.
    Assuming that all The Old World is, and that it will never expand ever. They're about to release a whole new range of Lizardmen in a week's time. You think there isn't a place in the future for Lizardmen to "invade" the old world, or for a "Rumble in the Jungle" expansion for TOW that includes Lizzies, some Skaven, Empire colinists and, hell, Dark Elves coming down south from Naggaroth?

    Again, why the assumption that this is all there is, and that it's doomed to failure?

    caladancid wrote:
    Now that they have released in total war, GW cannot discuss them any longer for the Old World.
    Whoever said that they can't discuss it?

    caladancid wrote:
    Can't even say, Kislev and Cathay are coming soon, coming later, or coming tomorrow.
    They already have... so... ?

    caladancid wrote:
    Right got it.
    Yeah I don't think you did...

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538019.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538019.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW quietly dropping them (or pushing them back beyond 2025 at the earliest) and not explicitly dropping them in the hopes of avoiding backlash. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538020.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538020.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
    While they don’t mention excluding Kislev and Cathay, they conspicuously left them out of the factions included as well.
    They included those that had rules prior to them killing WFB. Kislev didn't have much, and Cathay had nothing. They're hardly about to say that they'll put put PDFs for Cathay when TOW drops... Cathay don't have miniatures!!!

    Since then we know they've written army books for both (or at least Cathay) because they weren't going to let CA define what Cathay was, so did it themselves. Given the geographical focus of TOW, is it any wonder Cathay isn't involved at this stage?

     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
    My $5 is on GW quietly dropping them (or pushing them back beyond 2025 at the earliest) and not explicitly dropping them in the hopes of avoiding backlash.
    Why would you assume that at all?

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538021.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538021.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!

    Gimgamgoo wrote:So no Vampire Counts, Dark Elves, Lizardmen or Ogre Kingdoms?
    That's zapped all interest I had in the rebirth of the game. I'll stick with KoW, although I may look into some of the orc models if anything from the old style is released.

    I suppose that's my 2nd goodbye to the Old World.



    Literally playable in the game. Though if you want to rage quit before it even starts because you aren't getting a hard back, then I guess the rest of the player base dodged a bullet...


    Vulcan wrote:
     stahly wrote:
    Oh wow, the Fantasy / Old World community must be a quite sour place.

    Instead of a rehash of the old fluff you get a new setting / time period that hasn't been explored before, with new fleshed out lore. The commitment to support at least 9 classic ranges with new models, incl. the revival of two fan-favourite (but never high selling) ranges with Bretonnia and Tomb Kings. Rules for all of the other classic ranges. We know Kislev is on the horizon with a brand new range.

    Sorry, I can't see the problem here. Seems like some people can never be satisfied.


    Hard to be satisfied when your three main armies (Dark Elves, Skaven, and Lizardmen) just effectively got Squatted. Yeah, I can still use them in the game for the moment, but my feelings toward TOW is rapidly becoming 'Why bother?'



    Having rules isn't "squatted". Christ...


    H.B.M.C. wrote:
     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
    I’ll bet $5 this won’t get more than one real wave. At least not by 2025.
    Why do you assume that this is DOA?



    Because it has to be. Ever since this was announced this HAD to be a failure. The same people who were on here assuring us that squares weren't coming back, that this was simply going to be AOS Apocalypse style, that this was going to be Warmaster rereleased, and every other nonsense thing that essentially screamed "Play AOS because we're piss scared that we're about to lose a massive chunk of our player base!!!!" are the same people who are continuing to gak talk everything about this project the second it's announced.





    As far as the factions getting a Ravening Hordes "get you by " pdf? Here's a thought that apparently nobody considered...

    Warhammer: Lustria

    A second set of releases later down the line which delves into the Skaven/Lizardmen battles as well as the Vampire Coast AND the Dark Elf raids at the time. Someone who gives far more of a gak about the lore can even look up and see where The Fall of Chaqua fits into this timeframe.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538022.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538022.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Problem is rather "when", as does not help to tell people their proper army book is 5+ years after release

    and saying that pdf rules are enough when the core has army books?
    Compare this to still need to use the 8th Index to play your army in 10th 40k, because having rules is enough and it is playable


    And were are now all the people talking about Warhammer Fantasy was not worth keeping and needed to be replaced?
    GW is picking the game up were they left it, so if it was not worth playing and a dead game back in 8th, why should the very same game now be different?
    Why should it now not be DOA with the very same strategy that killed it?
    Why should people now buy models that did not sell back than because they were just bad?

    the only reason I can think if is because fanboys are going to spend a 1000€ per army, praising the 30 year old models being still better than everything and the rules the best ever seen without ever opening the boxes and playing the game



    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    For the release/announcement

    Looking at it again it very much feels now that it was cut down because they got a new deadline to bring the game back until the end of the year and this is the best they can do combined with not being allowed to use anything that is still in AoS (like they needed to wait for the Dawnbringer in AoS to be able to get Empire back to TOW)

    Hence we see High Elves because there a new ones in AoS, Wood Elves because only the Spirits made it (and we don't get those in TOW -> old metal treeman instead of the new plastic one) but not Skaven because their old models are still the core of the AoS faction

    My guess is we see the same as with Necromunda, a cut down release to get something this year, narrative books with armies to cover the next year, a proper core rulebook after that and army books following
    and depending on how well this goes and if they get replaced /new models in AoS the next wave of narrative books followed by army books of the other armies]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538026.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538026.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    I read this to mean that the primary focus will be on the nine races interacting with each other. But you can still get the others appearing from time to time. Druchii, for instance, can show up anywhere and at any time due to raiding - either something aimed explicitly at the high elves (who, we're told, maintain outposts along the coasts), or a slave grab that's particularly prominent for some reason (maybe it delayed Empire troops needed for a campaign; or the locals mistakenly thought the raiders were High Elves from a nearby outpost, and a punitive expedition was launched). The core nine are going to get the most updates - at least initially (which will be an unusual situation for the Tomb Kings, to say the least). But I would be very surprised if the others didn't periodically make cameo appearances in the on-going narrative, with accompanying army lists for the armies showing up in those specific events.

    For that matter, if the narrative ever reaches Praag, then the Dark Elves pretty much *must* show up at that point, since they launch a massive invasion of Ulthuan at the same time that the forces of Chaos are attacking the Empire.

    Also, just throwing this out there with no supporting evidence whatsoever, but Malerion is still missing from AoS (add him to the game already!). It wouldn't surprise me if there's a desire to avoid doing too much with the TOW Dark Elves until after Malerion and his elves are (finally) added to AoS, assuming that GW hasn't decided to postpone that indefinitely.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538029.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538029.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    They mentioned chaos dwarfs! And they only existed as a forge World army by the end of the game...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538047.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538047.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW then have a set of plastic minis that require singular area of shelf space but lets people buy further into not one, but THREE main range games. Not to mention side games like AoS Skirmish, Mordheim, Kill team etc. (I didn't count 30k, as I'm not actually sure if they use the daemons in that, but maybe its FOUR main range games!)

    Sure, they make a lot of money selling people multiple armies for each of the games. But even if someone is only buying that one single force, they now have them in the position to have them drop a bit of cash every year for every main game update at a minimum.

    The narrative that the PDF only forces have been given is baffling to me. Clear communication from GW would have gone a long way again, a simple '16 Armies was too much for our team to release at once so we decided to focus on these for now' would have been clearer than 'These armies don't fit the old world narrative'. Honestly the 'narrative' has been pushed to fit the releases more like. Tomb Kings make the narrative, but DE are not currently raiding Bretonnia? VC are flat out asleep and refuse to pop out to the empire for fast food runs?

    I'm just going to treat this as the biggest fantasy made to order they have done. I (personally) don't see the point in fully supporting a game on the off-chance that they *might* release model ranges or battletomes for the missing forces at a later date 'if the game does well' (The communities words, not GWs). If other GW releases are anything to go by, we'll only have a 5 minute window to buy stuff on preorder day anyway. I've already dropped keeping up with AoS as I got sick of the FOMO sales. I will thank GW for flooding the market with more of the old kits helping lower the 2nd hand price on them.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538062.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538062.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Tsagualsa wrote:
    It's not said that they'll do the actual war, the game is set in 'the decades leading up to it' and before the rise of Asavar Kul - the Great War is something like the End Times were for a long time for classic WHFB: constantly looming on the horizon, not actually happening


    That was not the impression I got. It felt more like The Great War Against Chaos is like The Siege of Terra: It's coming eventually, but that's the end game of this particular historical era.

    I can't imagine they'll pass up the opportunity to make a Magnus the Primarch Pious model for the game.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538064.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538064.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    the stand alone list was part of a campaign removed by the End Times, and it is important for GW that the End Times are real and the older releases are not

    Chaos Dwarfs fit as GW clearly stated that all armies/models that were there in 8th will be playable with TOW = CD are in, Kislev is out (and FW being something standalone that has nothing to do with GW and is not official anyway was an outdated view already back than and mainly pushed by some ETC players as they wanted to reduce the numbers of armies for that event)


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Scottywan82 wrote:
    Tsagualsa wrote:
    It's not said that they'll do the actual war, the game is set in 'the decades leading up to it' and before the rise of Asavar Kul - the Great War is something like the End Times were for a long time for classic WHFB: constantly looming on the horizon, not actually happening


    That was not the impression I got. It felt more like The Great War Against Chaos is like The Siege of Terra: It's coming eventually, but that's the end game of this particular historical era.

    I can't imagine they'll pass up the opportunity to make a Magnus the Primarch Pious model for the game.

    well, HH did not start with the Siege of Terra and an Emperor model either, and still don't have one]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538066.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538066.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Eumerin wrote:
    The link didn't say that the "outer" races weren't part of the game. It said that they weren't part of the narrative.

    I read this to mean that the primary focus will be on the nine races interacting with each other. But you can still get the others appearing from time to time. Druchii, for instance, can show up anywhere and at any time due to raiding - either something aimed explicitly at the high elves (who, we're told, maintain outposts along the coasts), or a slave grab that's particularly prominent for some reason (maybe it delayed Empire troops needed for a campaign; or the locals mistakenly thought the raiders were High Elves from a nearby outpost, and a punitive expedition was launched). The core nine are going to get the most updates - at least initially (which will be an unusual situation for the Tomb Kings, to say the least). But I would be very surprised if the others didn't periodically make cameo appearances in the on-going narrative, with accompanying army lists for the armies showing up in those specific events.

    For that matter, if the narrative ever reaches Praag, then the Dark Elves pretty much *must* show up at that point, since they launch a massive invasion of Ulthuan at the same time that the forces of Chaos are attacking the Empire.

    Also, just throwing this out there with no supporting evidence whatsoever, but Malerion is still missing from AoS (add him to the game already!). It wouldn't surprise me if there's a desire to avoid doing too much with the TOW Dark Elves until after Malerion and his elves are (finally) added to AoS, assuming that GW hasn't decided to postpone that indefinitely.


    When they say a faction is "not part of of the narrative we’re telling with The Old World", they are literally telling you that it's not part of the game. The Old World is a game, the game will be expanded through narrative, if something is not part of the narrative it will not be expanded upon and therefore will not be part of the game.

    They give a clear explanation as to why the Dark Elves are not in the game, presumably the Dark Elves don't launch any raids into the Ild Workd during the time frame of the games setting and are looking inward.
    .
    My take is that the narrative will never get to the Siege of Praag (article us clear on three separate occasions that the setting is the decades BEFORE this event, not "before and DURING", but if they did the fact that thr Dark Elves attacked Ulthusn at the same time does not mean they have to include them. These are two separate events with no direct interdependency between them, it's not like the Dark Elf armies are parked right outside the gates to the city.

     kodos wrote:

    well, HH did not start with the Siege of Terra and an Emperor model either, and still don't have one


    Yep, and the games been around for what 10-15 years?

    Likewise they told us from the getgo that the game was about the Imperial Civil War and that xenos were not Germaine to the narrative of the Horis Heresy... look at that, no xenos rules either.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538098.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538098.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Eumerin wrote:
    The link didn't say that the "outer" races weren't part of the game. It said that they weren't part of the narrative.

    I read this to mean that the primary focus will be on the nine races interacting with each other. But you can still get the others appearing from time to time. Druchii, for instance, can show up anywhere and at any time due to raiding - either something aimed explicitly at the high elves (who, we're told, maintain outposts along the coasts), or a slave grab that's particularly prominent for some reason (maybe it delayed Empire troops needed for a campaign; or the locals mistakenly thought the raiders were High Elves from a nearby outpost, and a punitive expedition was launched). The core nine are going to get the most updates - at least initially (which will be an unusual situation for the Tomb Kings, to say the least). But I would be very surprised if the others didn't periodically make cameo appearances in the on-going narrative, with accompanying army lists for the armies showing up in those specific events.

    For that matter, if the narrative ever reaches Praag, then the Dark Elves pretty much *must* show up at that point, since they launch a massive invasion of Ulthuan at the same time that the forces of Chaos are attacking the Empire.

    Also, just throwing this out there with no supporting evidence whatsoever, but Malerion is still missing from AoS (add him to the game already!). It wouldn't surprise me if there's a desire to avoid doing too much with the TOW Dark Elves until after Malerion and his elves are (finally) added to AoS, assuming that GW hasn't decided to postpone that indefinitely.


    It says that are not part of the narrative for The Old World - as in, the game itself. When they say that those other armies aren't a part of this project beyond the free rules they're handing out just because people have those miniatures on their shelves, and they are not something being actively considered as part of this game, then taking that to mean they'll still show up and still get things is just odd. They outright say that the game only has rules to let you play those armies "as a service to fans" and "for old times sake", that is pretty much the same as saying they are not part of the game overall.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538109.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538109.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    Heh. They updated the faction listing. Funny.

     BertBert wrote:
    I'm a bit surprised to see wood elves in there, but I don't hate it. Start with a smaller roster of supported factions and expand down the line. At least we are getting some solid info this time around.
    They're smack bang in the middle of everything between the Brets and the Empire. It would be weird to not have them there.

    Think of the big map from Total War Warhammer III. The Dark Lands were essentially this big empty "watch this space" for ages with a few random Orc tribes in there until the Chaos Dwarf DLC hit, then suddenly the entire area was filled with the faction that should be there. Can you imagine Athel Loren just being empty?



    It makes sense geographically, but my point was rather that WEs are a fairly niche faction I wouldn't have expected to be in the focus right away. If we are going purely by geographics, High Elves have no business being part of the narrative outside of small trading settlements and Elftown in Marienburg, so GW's reasoning behind the inclusion and exclusion of factions in not that simple. I'm sure it's a mix of what they can justify in lore and whatever miniature ranges they deem most attractive or lucrative.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538116.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538116.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! aos chaos warriors kits or bring back the old ones that fit better on square bases?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538120.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538120.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    James12345 wrote:
    Do we think they'll use the new aos chaos warriors kits or bring back the old ones that fit better on square bases?


    Honestly, no idea. The new ones are basically impossible to rank up, even with bigger bases, and the old ones are a very popular classic kit. Marauders do not have that problem. It's feasible that the new Warriors can be used for e.g. Chosen in the context of TOW, and the classic kit gets re-released. But it's also possible that they double down on their 'the power of Chaos is at an all-time low' and shift Warriors to Elite or 1 per army and have the main body be formed by Marauders.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538124.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538124.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! So that leaves 4 strong options:
    A. Expect players to take a hobby knife to their new Chaos kits and carve the trophies away.
    B. 1 in 5 Chaos Champions has apparently killed a metal wizard in personal combat.
    C. Provide the old kits.
    D. Never, ever mention it or visibly include the trophies in TOW media.

    Personally I'm thinking D, with some players choosing to deal with A.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538126.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538126.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     BertBert wrote:
     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    Heh. They updated the faction listing. Funny.

     BertBert wrote:
    I'm a bit surprised to see wood elves in there, but I don't hate it. Start with a smaller roster of supported factions and expand down the line. At least we are getting some solid info this time around.
    They're smack bang in the middle of everything between the Brets and the Empire. It would be weird to not have them there.

    Think of the big map from Total War Warhammer III. The Dark Lands were essentially this big empty "watch this space" for ages with a few random Orc tribes in there until the Chaos Dwarf DLC hit, then suddenly the entire area was filled with the faction that should be there. Can you imagine Athel Loren just being empty?



    It makes sense geographically, but my point was rather that WEs are a fairly niche faction I wouldn't have expected to be in the focus right away. If we are going purely by geographics, High Elves have no business being part of the narrative outside of small trading settlements and Elftown in Marienburg, so GW's reasoning behind the inclusion and exclusion of factions in not that simple. I'm sure it's a mix of what they can justify in lore and whatever miniature ranges they deem most attractive or lucrative.



    It's Tolkienesque Fantasy. Humans, Orcs, Dwarves, and both Rivendell and Lothlorien Elves were always pretty near guarantees to be included.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538131.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538131.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Asmodai wrote:
     BertBert wrote:
     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    Heh. They updated the faction listing. Funny.

     BertBert wrote:
    I'm a bit surprised to see wood elves in there, but I don't hate it. Start with a smaller roster of supported factions and expand down the line. At least we are getting some solid info this time around.
    They're smack bang in the middle of everything between the Brets and the Empire. It would be weird to not have them there.

    Think of the big map from Total War Warhammer III. The Dark Lands were essentially this big empty "watch this space" for ages with a few random Orc tribes in there until the Chaos Dwarf DLC hit, then suddenly the entire area was filled with the faction that should be there. Can you imagine Athel Loren just being empty?



    It makes sense geographically, but my point was rather that WEs are a fairly niche faction I wouldn't have expected to be in the focus right away. If we are going purely by geographics, High Elves have no business being part of the narrative outside of small trading settlements and Elftown in Marienburg, so GW's reasoning behind the inclusion and exclusion of factions in not that simple. I'm sure it's a mix of what they can justify in lore and whatever miniature ranges they deem most attractive or lucrative.



    It's Tolkienesque Fantasy. Humans, Orcs, Dwarves, and both Rivendell and Lothlorien Elves were always pretty near guarantees to be included.


    It will be interesting to see just what they release or re-release for the Wood Elves. Their current stance got me thinking that it will probably be mostly non-spirit elves, with the odd non-spirit monster among them, and tree-people of all sizes are going to get a 'fluffy' reason for being AWOL in AOS-land.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538135.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538135.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Breotan wrote:
    - Necromunda (N17) saw significant releases in 2022 with the massive Ash Wastes box set, Nomads gang, Ridgehauler and vehicle upgrades for three gangs, Squats in plastic for the first time since... they were squatted.

    Yes, which is why Necromunda does not qualify as a niche game in the same way as the examples I gave. It's front and centre right there with Blood Bowl in terms of mainline GW support.

     Breotan wrote:
    - Aeronautica saw a campaign book, the Custodes aircraft, Aeldari Wraithfighters and Interceptors (both in plastic), and the Necron fliers.

    All of those are FW resin, not plastic - with all associated quality problems and inaccessible pricing. Meanwhile, there is no starter set available for the game any more.

     Breotan wrote:
    - Titanicus (AT18) did have a smaller release with the Dire Wolf, and some weapon upgrades but it was still something.

    The fact that a single FW-only Titan and a handful of weapons is all the game has got illustrates my exact point. And again, no available starter set.

     Breotan wrote:
    Yep, these games obviously died off as soon as they started (which is why they still have new stuff being released four or five years later).

    'Dying off' doesn't have to mean completely discontinued, merely that releases are minor and/or limited to FW; I'd say that's exactly where Titanicus and Aeronautica fall. Given they are low-ish model count games they can, to a degree, get away with that, but it's not going to fly for ToW, which is going to require regiments of 20+ models. GW themselves have told us that not every faction is going to get full new plastic treatment (HH, and to a lesser extent Titanicus, prove that not even a one-faction Specialist game can manage that in a reasonable time frame), which guarantees some units will end up either in resin (and thus condemned to death by eye-watering pricing - just look at the Solar Auxilia) or only as MtO old kits sold for the same or higher price than they were originally.

    One of the big reasons WHFB died was the obscene pricing for a functional unit. How could doubling down on that, without the excuse of model design costs for a lot of what will be available, lead to anything other than a second demise? After four years all we've seen is two character models and a handful of new parts, so how are we expected to see ToW as anything other than a flimsy excuse to try and sell old kits and a lip-service range of new models to all those GW alienated once already? If there were any kind of coherent and well thought out game behind all the smoke and mirrors, why do we know less than nothing about it after all this time?
    It's a minimal effort project designed to exploit nostalgia; not a single bit of information we have about it suggests otherwise.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538147.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538147.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    James12345 wrote:
    Do we think they'll use the new aos chaos warriors kits or bring back the old ones that fit better on square bases?


    I think they go for the new kits. I think they will fit nicely in a square base unit, and the design looks almost like they intended them to look more old world than AoS. The same goes for the new goblin wolf riders.
    On the other hand they might consider people just wanting to expand their old range, or people wanting nostalgia stuff like those classic goblin wolf riders instead of the new cool ones.
    So the question is if its worth having two boxes for basicly the same unit. Probably not. What if they have a big discount box of fugly ol´ goblin wolfriders that people buy for AoS instead of the new design?

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538153.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538153.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    James12345 wrote:
    Do we think they'll use the new aos chaos warriors kits or bring back the old ones that fit better on square bases?


    With the confirmed increase in base size I'm fairly certain it's going to be the new kits. Except if there is a different reason for that particular change. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538161.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538161.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Mentlegen324 wrote:

    They outright say that the game only has rules to let you play those armies "as a service to fans" and "for old times sake", that is pretty much the same as saying they are not part of the game overall.

    It's worse than that.
    If you're playing one of those armies then they'll technically be in the game, but as a legacy army.

    Which is not a good experience. Having every game be an uphill battle because you've been left behind of the power creep wears you down and slowly builds up salt. Especially when there's no apparent intention to ever get to your army.
    It'll be like using warscrolls against the extra rules of a Battletome or having an index army while everyone else is getting a codex (that when I left, what's it like now?).

    The irony is that the main lines for this project (currently anyway) were cut and need reviving because (from what I gather) Bretonia and Tomb Kings were arguably the worst victims of this kind of thing in the first place.

    GW keeps doing the same bs and will keep doing it.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538167.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538167.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Fayric wrote:
    James12345 wrote:
    Do we think they'll use the new aos chaos warriors kits or bring back the old ones that fit better on square bases?


    I think they go for the new kits. I think they will fit nicely in a square base unit, and the design looks almost like they intended them to look more old world than AoS. The same goes for the new goblin wolf riders.
    On the other hand they might consider people just wanting to expand their old range, or people wanting nostalgia stuff like those classic goblin wolf riders instead of the new cool ones.
    So the question is if its worth having two boxes for basicly the same unit. Probably not. What if they have a big discount box of fugly ol´ goblin wolfriders that people buy for AoS instead of the new design?



    They already showed the old goblin wolf riders, so chances are the kits is returning. It will be odd seeing both the 'old' and "new" versions of the same unit for sale but I'm a fan of mixing units like this. I think GW know though that the community tends to police itself, a lot of folk won't use the 'wrong' miniatures on the off chance of being shunned by their communities (However ridiculous that might be!)

    As someone that has a main army of goblins, and having stormcast on squares for WFB, I welcome being able to buy old and new models! ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538170.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538170.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Tsagualsa wrote:
    James12345 wrote:
    Do we think they'll use the new aos chaos warriors kits or bring back the old ones that fit better on square bases?


    Honestly, no idea. The new ones are basically impossible to rank up, even with bigger bases, and the old ones are a very popular classic kit. Marauders do not have that problem. It's feasible that the new Warriors can be used for e.g. Chosen in the context of TOW, and the classic kit gets re-released. But it's also possible that they double down on their 'the power of Chaos is at an all-time low' and shift Warriors to Elite or 1 per army and have the main body be formed by Marauders.


    Gods, the marauders. Watch them do all this and still not update that sad little kit.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538174.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538174.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Voss wrote:
    Tsagualsa wrote:
    James12345 wrote:
    Do we think they'll use the new aos chaos warriors kits or bring back the old ones that fit better on square bases?


    Honestly, no idea. The new ones are basically impossible to rank up, even with bigger bases, and the old ones are a very popular classic kit. Marauders do not have that problem. It's feasible that the new Warriors can be used for e.g. Chosen in the context of TOW, and the classic kit gets re-released. But it's also possible that they double down on their 'the power of Chaos is at an all-time low' and shift Warriors to Elite or 1 per army and have the main body be formed by Marauders.


    Gods, the marauders. Watch them do all this and still not update that sad little kit.


    It ought to be one of the oldest plastic kits still in production, right? Together with some ancient Skaven and Empire kits.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538176.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538176.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Mentlegen324 wrote:

    It says that are not part of the narrative for The Old World - as in, the game itself. When they say that those other armies aren't a part of this project beyond the free rules they're handing out just because people have those miniatures on their shelves, and they are not something being actively considered as part of this game, then taking that to mean they'll still show up and still get things is just odd. They outright say that the game only has rules to let you play those armies "as a service to fans" and "for old times sake", that is pretty much the same as saying they are not part of the game overall.


    A narrative isn't a game. A narrative is a sequence of events being told. They distinctly used the word narrative, and not the word game.

    The reason we're told that those armies aren't part of the nine is because they didn't do much during the period. And that's fine. But not doing much, and doing absolutely nothing are not the same thing. For example, the Druchii do at least one very important thing during Asavar Kul's invasion, and that:s to launch an invasion of Ulthuan. So in that instance, they intrude on the narrative. They're still not really a part of it. They're still not part of the core group, as it's the only time they really make their presence felt during this period. But it's impossible to tell the narrative without an appearance by the Dark Elves.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538178.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538178.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    It helps that my armies are Orcs and Dwarfs. I would like to add Empire if the prices aren’t sky high.

    Nothing more to say other than “Ravening Hordes” not “Ravening Hoards”. Bash it, if you wish, but use the right name.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538190.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538190.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Tsagualsa wrote:
    James12345 wrote:
    Do we think they'll use the new aos chaos warriors kits or bring back the old ones that fit better on square bases?


    Honestly, no idea. The new ones are basically impossible to rank up, even with bigger bases, and the old ones are a very popular classic kit. Marauders do not have that problem. It's feasible that the new Warriors can be used for e.g. Chosen in the context of TOW, and the classic kit gets re-released. But it's also possible that they double down on their 'the power of Chaos is at an all-time low' and shift Warriors to Elite or 1 per army and have the main body be formed by Marauders.
    This is exactly what I was doing with my Oldhammer army. I have the classic kit as my mainline Chaos Warriors and started a Chosen regiment from Khagra's Ravagers that I was going to expand out when the new AOS Warriors box came out. That plan fell by the wayside but now I need to see what TOW will bring.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538198.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538198.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538238.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538238.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Mallo wrote:
     Fayric wrote:
    James12345 wrote:
    Do we think they'll use the new aos chaos warriors kits or bring back the old ones that fit better on square bases?


    I think they go for the new kits. I think they will fit nicely in a square base unit, and the design looks almost like they intended them to look more old world than AoS. The same goes for the new goblin wolf riders.
    On the other hand they might consider people just wanting to expand their old range, or people wanting nostalgia stuff like those classic goblin wolf riders instead of the new cool ones.
    So the question is if its worth having two boxes for basicly the same unit. Probably not. What if they have a big discount box of fugly ol´ goblin wolfriders that people buy for AoS instead of the new design?



    They already showed the old goblin wolf riders, so chances are the kits is returning. It will be odd seeing both the 'old' and "new" versions of the same unit for sale but I'm a fan of mixing units like this. I think GW know though that the community tends to police itself, a lot of folk won't use the 'wrong' miniatures on the off chance of being shunned by their communities (However ridiculous that might be!)

    As someone that has a main army of goblins, and having stormcast on squares for WFB, I welcome being able to buy old and new models!


    They also showed a picture of wood elves with an old 6th edition treeman, despite the fact that the "new" plastic treeman was released for 8th edition fantasy battle and should be the treeman of choise even for TOW.
    So, basicly, the pictures showed in articles may or may not be just old nostalgia pics. Perhaps, probably, the guys writing the articles dont get alot of clear information either.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538244.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538244.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Eumerin wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:

    It says that are not part of the narrative for The Old World - as in, the game itself. When they say that those other armies aren't a part of this project beyond the free rules they're handing out just because people have those miniatures on their shelves, and they are not something being actively considered as part of this game, then taking that to mean they'll still show up and still get things is just odd. They outright say that the game only has rules to let you play those armies "as a service to fans" and "for old times sake", that is pretty much the same as saying they are not part of the game overall.


    A narrative isn't a game. A narrative is a sequence of events being told. They distinctly used the word narrative, and not the word game.

    The reason we're told that those armies aren't part of the nine is because they didn't do much during the period. And that's fine. But not doing much, and doing absolutely nothing are not the same thing. For example, the Druchii do at least one very important thing during Asavar Kul's invasion, and that:s to launch an invasion of Ulthuan. So in that instance, they intrude on the narrative. They're still not really a part of it. They're still not part of the core group, as it's the only time they really make their presence felt during this period. But it's impossible to tell the narrative without an appearance by the Dark Elves.


    The game covers "The Old World" narrative, that is what it is for and what they are doing with it. Those armies have been outright stated to not be part of that, it is in effect the same as them not being part of the game, because that narrative is what supplements/additions will be themed around as and when they appear. They're getting the free rules just "for old times sake" as "a service to fans", and that's it for their involvement. If they were getting more, than they would be part of the narrative.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538251.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538251.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Tsagualsa wrote:
    Voss wrote:

    Gods, the marauders. Watch them do all this and still not update that sad little kit.


    It ought to be one of the oldest plastic kits still in production, right? Together with some ancient Skaven and Empire kits.


    My Hormagaunts stamped with 'Gamesworkshop 2000' say hi. Though they may soon see replacement (but not yet assured they will).]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538260.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538260.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Eumerin wrote:
    A narrative isn't a game. A narrative is a sequence of events being told. They distinctly used the word narrative, and not the word game.

    The reason we're told that those armies aren't part of the nine is because they didn't do much during the period. And that's fine. But not doing much, and doing absolutely nothing are not the same thing. For example, the Druchii do at least one very important thing during Asavar Kul's invasion, and that:s to launch an invasion of Ulthuan. So in that instance, they intrude on the narrative. They're still not really a part of it. They're still not part of the core group, as it's the only time they really make their presence felt during this period. But it's impossible to tell the narrative without an appearance by the Dark Elves.

    They do distinctly use game, too:
    The game will be set firmly within the Old World itself – the lands between the coast of Bretonnia to the west and the Worlds Edge Mountains to the east – during the decades immediately before the Great War Against Chaos and the Siege of Praag.

    Nothing in the rest of the article suggests that legacy factions will be involved in the game and narrative. Quite the opposite:
    Much of the action in the first wave of books and supplements takes place in and around the Border Princes – the barrier lands between the Empire and Orc territory. Accordingly, we will be focusing on nine core factions.
    These armies will have rules published alongside the launch of the Old World, and will be the pivotal players in the events covered in narrative expansions and supplements.
    The battles of Warhammer: the Old World take place in the decades immediately before the Siege of Praag.
    Certain factions people remember from Warhammer Fantasy Battles are not part of the narrative we’re telling with The Old World, but will be provided with rules at the launch of the game.
    These legacy faction army lists will be made available for free as pdfs as a service to fans who have these classic armies on their shelf, so they can still bring them to battle for old times sake.
    Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Chaos Dwarfs and Ogre Kingdoms are all based far from the Old World and, during this period, are very inward looking and insular races.

    I'm not sure how much clearer it can be: The game is set in the Old World, decades before the Siege of Praag. The first wave of books and supplements are taking place in and around the Border Princes. Their focus will be on nine core factions, who "will be pivotal players in the events covered in narrative expansions and supplements". Certain factions are not part of the narrative they are telling with the Old World; four of which are described as "during this period, very inward looking and insular", while the remaining two are out of action due to events that occurred prior to where The Old World narrative starts, and neither will be making a return until The Great War Against Chaos in any true capacity. Stating that the non-core factions will receive legacy army list pdfs as "a service to fans/can still bring them to battle for old times sake" does not suggest they have any plans to give new rules, models or lore for legacy factions.

    If TOW succeeds beyond GW expectations, we might see an expansion and further resources allocated to the Old World team, bringing those legacy factions back proper. At the moment though, this game is stated (by GW and by many of the player base) to be akin to HH. With the heavy emphasis that the narrative is taking place in the decades before the Siege of Praag/Great War Against Chaos, we aren't going to see Ulthuan invaded, VC returning, Skaven swarming to the surface, or see Ogres, Lizardmen or Chaos Dwarfs becoming part of the narrative.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538270.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538270.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Sethrut wrote:


    If TOW succeeds beyond GW expectations, we might see an expansion and further resources allocated to the Old World team, bringing those legacy factions back proper. At the moment though, this game is stated (by GW and by many of the player base) to be akin to HH, and with the heavy emphasis that the narrative is taking place in the decades before the Siege of Praag/Great War Against Chaos, we won't see Ulthuan invaded, or Skaven returning, or VC coming out of hiding.


    Importantly, due to the fact that they are essentially saying that they currently have no further plans for these factions, even if TOW were to be wildly succesful far beyond GW's expectations, design work would on these factions would just start then, i.e. when they realize that. The logistics, lead times etc. involved, we can reasonably assume, would mean that from that point out, these factions would still be multiple years away, as they'd need to find a release slot for them, do all the production and shipping steps and so on and so on. Which in turn means that they're at least half a decade away, even if TOW was released next year. We don't know how far into the future GW has planned their release schedules, but we do know that their 'tentpole' products are designed 3-4 years in advance. The schedule itself probably goes even farther than that, subject to operational and management changes.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538278.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538278.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW

    Its targeting people like me for nostalga but I still have all my armies - especially since they seem to be just dong a few new ones and reusing the old ones like Free Company and not creating "period" units - so limited sales.

    What I don't have and 99.9% of Fantasy battle fans don't have is a Cathay army....and whats not anywhere on the horizon......]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538286.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538286.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! 40K edition = far too much design, production and warehouse capacity in use

    so assuming this is launching this year (and i'm still not convinced) launching with the old stuff only minimises the capacity they need and hopefully builds an active buyer/player base in time for new stuff down the line. Nostalgic player will hopefully use their existing kit and pick up the odd new bit or two (or 10) but less chance of a stalled launch with not enough of anything available for new armies]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538307.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538307.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Mr Morden wrote:
    I really don;t get GW

    Its targeting people like me for nostalga but I still have all my armies - especially since they seem to be just dong a few new ones and reusing the old ones like Free Company and not creating "period" units - so limited sales.

    What I don't have and 99.9% of Fantasy battle fans don't have is a Cathay army....and whats not anywhere on the horizon......

    It's not just a straightforward sell product to target market with wargames.

    At the very least, the network effect comes into play.
    People want to play games that they can find opponents for, so having a "network" of established players from letting prople bring out their old models has value as it makes the game more attractive.

    Once people are playing they can then sell armies to new people coming in or selling the new shiny to players who already have old armies.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538312.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538312.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538422.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538422.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! GW seeing other companies have "rank and file" games with a fantasy setting and they want that market

    not all of it, but enough no other company can use it to grow]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538423.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538423.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Eumerin wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:

    It says that are not part of the narrative for The Old World - as in, the game itself. When they say that those other armies aren't a part of this project beyond the free rules they're handing out just because people have those miniatures on their shelves, and they are not something being actively considered as part of this game, then taking that to mean they'll still show up and still get things is just odd. They outright say that the game only has rules to let you play those armies "as a service to fans" and "for old times sake", that is pretty much the same as saying they are not part of the game overall.


    A narrative isn't a game. A narrative is a sequence of events being told. They distinctly used the word narrative, and not the word game.

    The reason we're told that those armies aren't part of the nine is because they didn't do much during the period. And that's fine. But not doing much, and doing absolutely nothing are not the same thing. For example, the Druchii do at least one very important thing during Asavar Kul's invasion, and that:s to launch an invasion of Ulthuan. So in that instance, they intrude on the narrative. They're still not really a part of it. They're still not part of the core group, as it's the only time they really make their presence felt during this period. But it's impossible to tell the narrative without an appearance by the Dark Elves.


    But they never said they *would* tell that narrative, did they. They said the game is set (decsdes) BEFORE Asavar Kul and the Siege of Praag and the Great War. The term "before" is usually understood as being an exclusionary one, as in it is not usually inclusive of the thing being described (in this case, the Great War).

    Otherwise, yeah that's a lot of words being used to basically say that if something isn't being included in the narrative then it isn't being included in the game, pdfs notwithstanding.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538455.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538455.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    leopard wrote:
    all this is about is GW seeing other companies have "rank and file" games with a fantasy setting and they want that market

    not all of it, but enough no other company can use it to grow


    More like they want that market BACK.

    They had it locked up, then threw it away because they lacked the capability to make it as profitable as 50 Shades of Space Marines. Others took it up, and now that they see there actually IS a market for a well-done ranks and flanks game, they want their market back. But I don't think they've developed the capability nor the mindset to do one justice in the meantime...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538480.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538480.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!

    Just to end this irrational nonsense that the non core factions are basically dead and will never be looked at...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538524.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538524.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538528.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538528.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
    I mean that's basically saying they're out until if/when we decide to put them back in.


    Yeah but a lot of people in this thread have been saying that they're permanently out and there's no chance of them ever being revisited in future waves or expansions. Which is not true.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538535.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538535.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Londinium wrote:
     Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
    I mean that's basically saying they're out until if/when we decide to put them back in.


    Yeah but a lot of people in this thread have been saying that they're permanently out and there's no chance of them ever being revisited in future waves or expansions. Which is not true.


    No. A lot of people have been saying that the game as it is does not involve those armies and even with the waves and expansions they are doing, they will not feature.

    At some point years from now they could change their mind and add them back in, but their current plan, and the game as it is is being done, does not involve them. Being able to imagine a scenario where they possibly get added is meaningless.

    Making out as if there's no reason to be disappointed about them not being there because you can make up whatever idea you like with the game and just hope for the best, against what they've actually said to us, is pretty absurd. The game does not involve those armies beyond the free rules and while of course its "possible" they eventually change that, imaginary scenarios that may or may not happen don't actually do anything to help alleviate peoples concerns.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538551.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538551.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
    I mean that's basically saying they're out until if/when we decide to put them back in.


    Yes.

    Which is different to they are dead and done for gloommongering rampant here.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538575.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538575.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! Reddit:

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538582.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538582.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!

    Interesting, that clears some of the confusion their statements during the Warhammerfest Q&A session created.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538585.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538585.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    tneva82 wrote:
    Yes.

    Which is different to they are dead and done for gloommongering rampant here.


    Clearly nothing is "dead and done" forever - GW have un-Squatted Squats.
    Nothing GW says now binds their decision making in the future.
    The argument is over the timeline. My reading is they aren't doing the non-Core armies any time soon. For regular GW that would be a window of at least 3 years. If this is to sort of stand in for Horus Heresy 1.0, we could be talking deep into the 2030s.

    If around 2009 you'd asked "when will there be another Bretonnia release" I'm not sure "its certainly possible we could see them return - you know, in about 15 years time, in another game" would have been that pleasing. Even if it was accurate.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538592.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538592.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    tneva82 wrote:
     Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
    I mean that's basically saying they're out until if/when we decide to put them back in.


    Yes.

    Which is different to they are dead and done for gloommongering rampant here.


    That there's a nebulous mention of a possibility that years from now they may or may not decide to change their mind and add them in doesn't change that as the game is actually going to be, they aren't involved. They're not part of the game beyond the free rules, and they are not part of the plan for what they're doing with additions/supplements.

    A vague hope that it'll eventually change doesn't override that. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538594.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538594.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
     Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
    I mean that's basically saying they're out until if/when we decide to put them back in.


    Yes.

    Which is different to they are dead and done for gloommongering rampant here.


    That there's a nebulous mention of a possibility that years from now they may or may not decide to change their mind and add them in doesn't change that as the game is actually going to be, they aren't involved. They're not part of the game beyond the free rules, and they are not part of the plan for what they're doing with additions/supplements.

    A vague hope that it'll eventually change doesn't override that.


    Imho they are just walking back what was perceived (by some, at least) as a hard 'no' to their more usual, noncommital 'We have no concrete plans at the moment'. It's just bog-standard corporate communications, try the waters with your first statement, do the 'no, no, you totally misunderstood' gaslighting if it riles up too many people.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538600.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538600.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
     Londinium wrote:
     Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
    I mean that's basically saying they're out until if/when we decide to put them back in.


    Yeah but a lot of people in this thread have been saying that they're permanently out and there's no chance of them ever being revisited in future waves or expansions. Which is not true.


    No. A lot of people have been saying that the game as it is does not involve those armies and even with the waves and expansions they are doing, they will not feature.

    At some point years from now they could change their mind and add them back in, but their current plan, and the game as it is is being done, does not involve them. Being able to imagine a scenario where they possibly get added is meaningless.

    Making out as if there's no reason to be disappointed about them not being there because you can make up whatever idea you like with the game and just hope for the best, against what they've actually said to us, is pretty absurd. The game does not involve those armies beyond the free rules and while of course its "possible" they eventually change that, imaginary scenarios that may or may not happen don't actually do anything to help alleviate peoples concerns.



    Yeah, "its certainly possible" is a pure fortune-teller non-answer. Its certainly possible that somebody here will win the lottery tomorrow.

    Kicking off with 'not sure where you heard that" isn't much better.
    'Predominantly classic kits' is about the only thing of substance in the reply. To the point that I'm thinking 60% old stuff, 20% new plastic and 20% resin is the very best we can hope for. (For armies they bothered to support). But that's best case. I'm leaning toward 75% old stuff.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538611.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538611.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Tyel wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
    Yes.

    Which is different to they are dead and done for gloommongering rampant here.


    Clearly nothing is "dead and done" forever - GW have un-Squatted Squats.
    Nothing GW says now binds their decision making in the future.


    Exactly. Remember when space hulk was originally supposed to never be released again, and had since come out like five more times. They’re even making exclusive warhammer world models widely available

    That is not dead which can eternal lie (especially if GW can make money off of it)]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538614.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538614.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Voss wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
     Londinium wrote:
     Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
    I mean that's basically saying they're out until if/when we decide to put them back in.


    Yeah but a lot of people in this thread have been saying that they're permanently out and there's no chance of them ever being revisited in future waves or expansions. Which is not true.


    No. A lot of people have been saying that the game as it is does not involve those armies and even with the waves and expansions they are doing, they will not feature.

    At some point years from now they could change their mind and add them back in, but their current plan, and the game as it is is being done, does not involve them. Being able to imagine a scenario where they possibly get added is meaningless.

    Making out as if there's no reason to be disappointed about them not being there because you can make up whatever idea you like with the game and just hope for the best, against what they've actually said to us, is pretty absurd. The game does not involve those armies beyond the free rules and while of course its "possible" they eventually change that, imaginary scenarios that may or may not happen don't actually do anything to help alleviate peoples concerns.



    Yeah, "its certainly possible" is a pure fortune-teller non-answer. Its certainly possible that somebody here will win the lottery tomorrow.

    Kicking off with 'not sure where you heard that" isn't much better.
    'Predominantly classic kits' is about the only thing of substance in the reply. To the point that I'm thinking 60% old stuff, 20% new plastic and 20% resin is the very best we can hope for. (For armies they bothered to support). But that's best case. I'm leaning toward 75% old stuff.


    There's also the question how much the Social Media team actually knows, and how much they're allowed to tell. If it works in the usual way, they have a relatively short window of stuff they are informed about, and a cheat-sheet of 'allowed' answers they have to give to questions, and yet another list of questions they are not even allowed to acknowledge. They're giving out what corporate tells them, and have no knowledge beyond that - it's a sensible way to handle that stuff to prevent leaks and misunderstandings, but ultimately they're speaking from a position of ignorance by design.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538623.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538623.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Tsagualsa wrote:


    Interesting, that clears some of the confusion their statements during the Warhammerfest Q&A session created.

    Those were cleared up at the time, no?
    The questioner meant starter set as in first/big set and the person on stage heard starter as in “beginner level set with push fit minis, rulers, dice, and quick play tutorial” since internally they use launch box and starter set to mean separate products and no-one bothered with a follow up to clarify until after all the panic had already set in. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538651.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538651.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19! 40k "launch boxes" have had push-fit minis in them anyway.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538653.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538653.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Mr_Rose wrote:
    Tsagualsa wrote:


    Interesting, that clears some of the confusion their statements during the Warhammerfest Q&A session created.

    Those were cleared up at the time, no?
    The questioner meant starter set as in first/big set and the person on stage heard starter as in “beginner level set with push fit minis, rulers, dice, and quick play tutorial” since internally they use launch box and starter set to mean separate products and no-one bothered with a follow up to clarify until after all the panic had already set in.



    Yeah, the terms got muddled and due to their decision to not stream the Q&A sessions that horse had bolted before they were even aware of the problem. They reacted afterwards on social media, but it seems that that might not have been enough to stop the rumour mill.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538654.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538654.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Tsagualsa wrote:

    There's also the question how much the Social Media team actually knows, and how much they're allowed to tell. If it works in the usual way, they have a relatively short window of stuff they are informed about, and a cheat-sheet of 'allowed' answers they have to give to questions, and yet another list of questions they are not even allowed to acknowledge. They're giving out what corporate tells them, and have no knowledge beyond that - it's a sensible way to handle that stuff to prevent leaks and misunderstandings, but ultimately they're speaking from a position of ignorance by design.


    Oh, yeah. That's a given. This is entirely the wrong source to go to for reassurance.
    I'm a little surprised that 'maybe in the future, if the stars align!' is an answer they're allowed to give.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538655.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538655.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538677.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538677.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     kodos wrote:
    A news setting/expansion that features the armies that are not yet covered, of course this is possible

    GW is picking the game up were they left it, so if it was not worth playing and a dead game back in 8th, why should the very same game now be different?
    Why should it now not be DOA with the very same strategy that killed it?
    Why should people now buy models that did not sell back than because they were just bad?

    ---
    The models didn`t sell well not just because they were bad, but because there was no demand. Because of bad rules, a barrier of entry way too high, many players quitting - who sold their miniatures and floading the market by doing that - because of divisive rules, no communication, no entry products

    If GW targets some of these issues, the dead may not be dead on arrival. It will probably never again reach its status of 2005, but times have changed and so has the market.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538718.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538718.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW Warhammer Fantasy models

    you saw armies made from historical metal models and even 40k models rather than the original fantasy models, demand was there but ignored]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538736.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538736.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    Billicus wrote:
    That would be a bit weird because I don't think anyone really considers "Starter set" to mean "push-fit minis" and also the last few 40k "launch boxes" have had push-fit minis in them anyway.


    It seems that GW has very specific ideas what kind of terminology they want to use for their products (and have been inconsistent about it in the past, at least in some cases, which obviously doesn't help). Customers are far broader and more casual about such things.

    The failure at Warhammer Fest seems to have been an inability of the presenters to understand what the audience was asking. Strictly, by their own definitions, they answered correctly. But that does not actually help an audience that may not be aware of GW's terminology, or doesn't care to use it. This is something the PR people have to pick up on to avoid miscommunication.

     Kid_Kyoto wrote:
    Changed the title and took off the reference to page 19, I think we're kind of past that now.


    Where's your proof?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538756.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538756.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Geifer wrote:
    Billicus wrote:
    That would be a bit weird because I don't think anyone really considers "Starter set" to mean "push-fit minis" and also the last few 40k "launch boxes" have had push-fit minis in them anyway.


    It seems that GW has very specific ideas what kind of terminology they want to use for their products (and have been inconsistent about it in the past, at least in some cases, which obviously doesn't help). Customers are far broader and more casual about such things.

    The failure at Warhammer Fest seems to have been an inability of the presenters to understand what the audience was asking. Strictly, by their own definitions, they answered correctly. But that does not actually help an audience that may not be aware of GW's terminology, or doesn't care to use it. This is something the PR people have to pick up on to avoid miscommunication.



    I'd understand that if this was like a bunch of suits being plonked in front of an audience. But these guys are meant to be hobbyist themselves, they must have some idea of the words they say will have a certain meaning or that most hobbyist won't always refer to products in the terminology cooked up by marketing. The front line staff of GW are not so far removed from 'regular' hobbyists, surely?

    Its either the best marketing strategy ever devised. Nothing keeps things in peoples social media feeds better than putting out some stupid PR commentary, being deliberately vague, and making customers pass about broken whispers (adding to the fable of the now legendary 20+ year old kits! Keep them secret! Keep them safe!) keeping everyone arguing about warhammer (And not noticing other games)

    Or

    They have weaponised incompetence. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538769.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538769.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Everybody has their own, and its very easy to forget that other people don't use it. If its really bad, it doesn't translate between departments, let alone the outside world. (and the less said about government acronyms the better)

    I know in my own workplace, there's a huge divide between them upstairs, those of us that actually work, and terminology our patrons understand.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538771.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538771.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Mallo wrote:
     Geifer wrote:
    Billicus wrote:
    That would be a bit weird because I don't think anyone really considers "Starter set" to mean "push-fit minis" and also the last few 40k "launch boxes" have had push-fit minis in them anyway.


    It seems that GW has very specific ideas what kind of terminology they want to use for their products (and have been inconsistent about it in the past, at least in some cases, which obviously doesn't help). Customers are far broader and more casual about such things.

    The failure at Warhammer Fest seems to have been an inability of the presenters to understand what the audience was asking. Strictly, by their own definitions, they answered correctly. But that does not actually help an audience that may not be aware of GW's terminology, or doesn't care to use it. This is something the PR people have to pick up on to avoid miscommunication.



    I'd understand that if this was like a bunch of suits being plonked in front of an audience. But these guys are meant to be hobbyist themselves, they must have some idea of the words they say will have a certain meaning or that most hobbyist won't always refer to products in the terminology cooked up by marketing. The front line staff of GW are not so far removed from 'regular' hobbyists, surely?

    Its either the best marketing strategy ever devised. Nothing keeps things in peoples social media feeds better than putting out some stupid PR commentary, being deliberately vague, and making customers pass about broken whispers (adding to the fable of the now legendary 20+ year old kits! Keep them secret! Keep them safe!) keeping everyone arguing about warhammer (And not noticing other games)

    Or

    They have weaponised incompetence.


    Warhammerfest was just a weirdly quarter-assed thing all around - like many of these corporate affairs, nowadays you can almost cut the feeling of detached cynicism of most people involved with a knife, as they're neither genuinly excited about the things they're presenting nor involved enough to at least convincingly fake it. I don't remember which panel it was that opened with a dialogue of 'So, Jim, have you done something exciting for $game lately?' 'No, not really Bob, no' but it sums the thing up perfectly - real 'quiet quitting' hour feelings in there.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538772.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538772.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Mallo wrote:

    Its either the best marketing strategy ever devised. Nothing keeps things in peoples social media feeds better than putting out some stupid PR commentary, being deliberately vague, and making customers pass about broken whispers (adding to the fable of the now legendary 20+ year old kits! Keep them secret! Keep them safe!) keeping everyone arguing about warhammer (And not noticing other games)


    Amusingly enough it was nearly 20 years after Bilbo's Birthday part that Frodo & friends actually got off their butts and starting moving.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538774.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538774.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Voss wrote:
    Or, to be fair, institutional jargon that they use on a regular basis wins.

    Everybody has their own, and its very easy to forget that other people don't use it. If its really bad, it doesn't translate between departments, let alone the outside world. (and the lest said about government acronyms the better)

    I know in my own workplace, there's a huge divide between them upstairs, those of us that actually work, and terminology our patrons understand.


    ^^ This

    Language and terminology internal to a firm can be very different when it comes to how the public interact with products. Most of the time its totally fine; but every so often you'll get a mistake where someone asks a simple question that gets answered the wrong way because the person answering has their company brain running instead of their consumer brain. Heck sometimes its just because they know a LOT of things that they are not allowed to tell you so they are doing their best to make sure they only release the info that you are supposed to know on that day. Which can result in someone being super cagey about even really simple things or tripping up because they are in full company mode and "no starter set" was drummed into them even if there is a set that's basically what 99.0% of customers would consider a starter set and which marketing will probably call a starter (or use similar language - eg entry set) when marketing it in a few weeks/months time. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538776.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538776.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    leopard wrote:
    all this is about is GW seeing other companies have "rank and file" games with a fantasy setting and they want that market

    not all of it, but enough no other company can use it to grow


    This man understands.....]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538784.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538784.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Overread wrote:
    Voss wrote:
    Or, to be fair, institutional jargon that they use on a regular basis wins.

    Everybody has their own, and its very easy to forget that other people don't use it. If its really bad, it doesn't translate between departments, let alone the outside world. (and the lest said about government acronyms the better)

    I know in my own workplace, there's a huge divide between them upstairs, those of us that actually work, and terminology our patrons understand.


    ^^ This

    Language and terminology internal to a firm can be very different when it comes to how the public interact with products. Most of the time its totally fine; but every so often you'll get a mistake where someone asks a simple question that gets answered the wrong way because the person answering has their company brain running instead of their consumer brain. Heck sometimes its just because they know a LOT of things that they are not allowed to tell you so they are doing their best to make sure they only release the info that you are supposed to know on that day. Which can result in someone being super cagey about even really simple things or tripping up because they are in full company mode and "no starter set" was drummed into them even if there is a set that's basically what 99.0% of customers would consider a starter set and which marketing will probably call a starter (or use similar language - eg entry set) when marketing it in a few weeks/months time.


    GW is really paranoid about giving anything but the barest, approved at the highest level information away. I suspect that its PR people might worry about the answers they're allowed/not allowed to give so much that they don't even want to try to interpret questions lest they accidentally give something away they shouldn't have.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538786.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538786.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    At the most you let audience submit questions to the host who then cherry picks, edits or outright makes up the questions you want to answer.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538796.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538796.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Kid_Kyoto wrote:
    The wise spokesperson never takes questions from the audience.

    At the most you let audience submit questions to the host who then cherry picks, edits or outright makes up the questions you want to answer.


    see also just about every "FAQ" ever issued]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538798.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538798.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Kid_Kyoto wrote:
    The wise spokesperson never takes questions from the audience.


    A Q&A session where presenters and audience stare at each other in silent loathing for an hour is something GW should try at some point. Maybe even stream it so the Internet can partake in the experience as well.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538800.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538800.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Kid_Kyoto wrote:
    The wise spokesperson never takes questions from the audience.

    At the most you let audience submit questions to the host who then cherry picks, edits or outright makes up the questions you want to answer.


    According to people there, questions were being prescreened before brought to the mike.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538825.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538825.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Find it far easier to believe the guy taking questions didn't think there was, so just said "no". Cue outrage, cue "obviously there will be" a few hours later.

    Maybe in GW-head Leviathan, the thing they'd spent 2 days hyping up, isn't a starter (cos it lacks dice and whippy sticks). But if so the response is surely "not a starter as such - but something like Leviathan". ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538834.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538834.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     Londinium wrote:


    Just to end this irrational nonsense that the non core factions are basically dead and will never be looked at...


    A few months ago the warhammer Facebook page replied to me saying that they hadnt heard anything about plans to update the Daemon Prince but to keep an eye out in the future. A month later they announced the new Daemon Prince kit. The people that run the social media teams know basically nothing about long term plans and always frame everything in the context of "who knows what might happen woooo anything is possible ahhhh". If you're taking this as an indication of *anything* then you're falling for marketing-speak for empty promises and wishful thinking (and I say that as someone in a long term relationship with someone who specifically does marketing in the game industry).

    And before anyone starts, the warcom article was actually written by "the guys from the Warhammer Design Studio" (per the article itself) - its fair to say they know what they are talking about - much moreso than the social media manager.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538926.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538926.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    We have seen the new heroes for the Tomb Kings and the Brets. We also know that Brets are getting foot knights (GW said in the Bret reveal article). The last time the Brets had foot knight was 3rd edition. Based off the Tomb King weapon Sprue that they have showed a couple of articles ago, i thought is was a sprue for a plastic hero but since they showed off the Resin Hero i have changed my mind. I think that these weapons will go to a foot mummy unit similar to the one from 4th edition.

    With the announcement of the armies that are coming back first and will get new units and heroes. I think heroes do not matter much, unless it is a new model for a existing Special Character. These are the units that i think are returning to TOW from previous editions with new kits.

    Empire -
    Reiksgard Foot Knights
    War Wagon
    Halflings

    Wood Elves-
    Animal Trainers
    Falconeers
    Zoats (they were part of the wood elf army in 2nd and 3rd editions)

    Chaos -
    Thugs
    Chaos Dwarf War Machines

    Beastmen -
    Slangors
    Tzangors
    Centigors

    Greenskins
    Plastic Snotlings and Pump Wagon
    Fimir (Forge World made some and since they are running things they may come back)

    Brets -
    Foot Knights

    Dwarf -
    Dwarf Weapon Teams
    Norse Dwarfs (berserkers)

    High Elves -
    No earthly idea

    Tomb Kings -
    Foot Mummies from 4th edition

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538950.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538950.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538959.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538959.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     nathan2004 wrote:
    Paymaster I honestly think Gdubs should have put you in charge of this project, we would have all ended up with something we loved. Also I’m being serious here and not sarcastic.


    Thank you.

    When i was a younger man i gave it the old college try and it did not get anywhere. I did write a article that appeared in White Dwarf years ago, and I did have a conversation with one of the designers about updating the rules of the Dogs of War. But all of the is in the past, i run my own model company now but if i could land a job at GW design team at my age i would take it.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538970.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11538970.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    chaos0xomega wrote:
     Londinium wrote:


    Just to end this irrational nonsense that the non core factions are basically dead and will never be looked at...


    A few months ago the warhammer Facebook page replied to me saying that they hadnt heard anything about plans to update the Daemon Prince but to keep an eye out in the future. A month later they announced the new Daemon Prince kit. The people that run the social media teams know basically nothing about long term plans and always frame everything in the context of "who knows what might happen woooo anything is possible ahhhh". If you're taking this as an indication of *anything* then you're falling for marketing-speak for empty promises and wishful thinking (and I say that as someone in a long term relationship with someone who specifically does marketing in the game industry).

    And before anyone starts, the warcom article was actually written by "the guys from the Warhammer Design Studio" (per the article itself) - its fair to say they know what they are talking about - much moreso than the social media manager.



    Well. He just repeats what gw has said before.

    So if you don't trust then no matter who says you don't trust it.

    At which point just admit you think gw lies about everything.

    But while gw doesn't tell everything they don't flat out lie generally. Bad business

    So according to you for example no foot knights are coming. Gw said are coming but they are lying. Hell even 40k 10th ed coming this year isn't sure thing as everything gw says can be lie regardless of who says what.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539017.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539017.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539022.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539022.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    tneva82 wrote:
    chaos0xomega wrote:
     Londinium wrote:


    Just to end this irrational nonsense that the non core factions are basically dead and will never be looked at...


    A few months ago the warhammer Facebook page replied to me saying that they hadnt heard anything about plans to update the Daemon Prince but to keep an eye out in the future. A month later they announced the new Daemon Prince kit. The people that run the social media teams know basically nothing about long term plans and always frame everything in the context of "who knows what might happen woooo anything is possible ahhhh". If you're taking this as an indication of *anything* then you're falling for marketing-speak for empty promises and wishful thinking (and I say that as someone in a long term relationship with someone who specifically does marketing in the game industry).

    And before anyone starts, the warcom article was actually written by "the guys from the Warhammer Design Studio" (per the article itself) - its fair to say they know what they are talking about - much moreso than the social media manager.



    Well. He just repeats what gw has said before.

    So if you don't trust then no matter who says you don't trust it.

    At which point just admit you think gw lies about everything.

    But while gw doesn't tell everything they don't flat out lie generally. Bad business

    So according to you for example no foot knights are coming. Gw said are coming but they are lying. Hell even 40k 10th ed coming this year isn't sure thing as everything gw says can be lie regardless of who says what.


    There's a difference between direct statements like 'There will be Foot Knights for Bretonnia' and deliberately vague statements like 'It is possible that we will do things in the future'.

    Concerning the statement above, in the screenshot, there are many possibilities how it can be technically true while also not being what any normal person would think of when they heard it. The statement reads:


    Most armies will be comprised predominantly of returning classic kits which include a whole load of plastics, as well as some metal and resin miniatures. There will also be new kits released in both plastic and Forgeworld resin too.


    The reading a normal person would infer is: 'Armies will consist mostly of plastic models, with some resin and metal besides, and will get new plastic and resin kits besides'

    But if we do a careful (paranoid) reading, and use the most hostile interpretation at every turn, we get:

    Most = not all, but the majority
    Predominantly = 51%
    Returning classics which include... = Some select plastic kits are returning, but it's mostly metal and resin
    There will be... = This leaves the widest avenue for interpretation; technically this would be true with a single plastic kit and a handful of FW sets; there's also no definition what a 'kit' is in the end, this encompasses everything from a single multipart character to full regimental boxes or large multipart centrepieces

    So effectively this statement could cover as much as 'all classic plastic boxes for these armies, most classic metal/resin characters, as well as new plastic kits and FW resin characters and monsters never seen before' and as little as 'some armies get limited selections of their plastic boxes back, while others will only get their character blisters made available again, and there will be a handful of new plastic kits and FW characters for a few armies'

    The truth will obviously lie somewhere in the middle, and probably more on the positive side, but the statement itself is intentionally very vague and noncommittal while sounding very enthusiatic and positive if you only glance over it superficially.

    I hope that everything turns out great and the game gets substantial support, but the above statement allows for dirty tricks like plastic boxes just being existing kits with a new weapon loadout, or the 'resin kits' being the handful of command sets and characters Forgeworld did for e.g. Blackfire Pass but never got around to releasing. Better to reign in your expectations somewhat than being disappointed later on.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539023.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539023.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors gw doesn't lower prices and create a ruleset that for once needs to compete with competent ones from other companies.

    Because the grogs have left or play oldhammer versions.
    A Lot are miffed about the rebasing, especially those with large armies.
    Entry price and pts will remain a hurdle for new blood, nvm size of games.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539065.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539065.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Not Online!!! wrote:
    Which is still all irrelevant if gw doesn't lower prices and create a ruleset that for once needs to compete with competent ones from other companies.


    It's directly important because plastic regiment kits are the only product that are affordable enough to allow people to enter the game at all; without a possibility to build the backbone of an army with relatively cheap plastic kits, the whole game rests on people that have armies already, second-hand stuff or 3rd-party replacements, all of which make GW no money. Launching a rank-and-file game that rest squarely on the shoulders of FW resin regiments at FW prices is a doomed endeavour. Rules etc. play a distinct second fiddle if nobody can afford the game.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539068.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539068.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors By keeping the old base sizes, my armies can be used for:
    - WFB 6E
    - WFB 8E
    - Kings of War (In ranks)
    - Warhammer Armies Project
    - The Old World (Using spaced unit trays)

    Conversely, the new sizes allow me to play:
    - The Old World (In an environment where I cannot just use spacers)

    So we now have a game mode that is not readily compatible with anything else and does not provide equal support to all its factions. For veteran WFB players it does not seem at all appealing to rebase anything, even if I end up playing TOW as a ruleset.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539071.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539071.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Mozzamanx wrote:
    Just had a thought regarding new bases.
    By keeping the old base sizes, my armies can be used for:
    - WFB 6E
    - WFB 8E
    - Kings of War (In ranks)
    - Warhammer Armies Project
    - The Old World (Using spaced unit trays)

    Conversely, the new sizes allow me to play:
    - The Old World (In an environment where I cannot just use spacers)

    So we now have a game mode that is not readily compatible with anything else and does not provide equal support to all its factions. For veteran WFB players it does not seem at all appealing to rebase anything, even if I end up playing TOW as a ruleset.


    It will probably boil down to how important GW-organized Organized Play is to you; if you don't want to do it with some regularity, you have absolutely no incentive to do any rebasing. That, again, contributes to the ongoing problem of this game not really knowing who it is for anyway.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539072.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539072.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539073.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539073.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Gert wrote:
    Good thing you aren't required to change your bases at all.


    Since no base size is going to shrink, close to 100% of people will just use movement trays with adequate spacing and markings, if they feel the need to do anything at all. It's a non-issue for most.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539074.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539074.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539076.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539076.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors I'm going to assume GW have taken this into account with the statistics of the models they are altering with the necessary playtesting required.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539108.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539108.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Tsagualsa wrote:
    Not Online!!! wrote:
    Which is still all irrelevant if gw doesn't lower prices and create a ruleset that for once needs to compete with competent ones from other companies.


    It's directly important because plastic regiment kits are the only product that are affordable enough to allow people to enter the game at all; without a possibility to build the backbone of an army with relatively cheap plastic kits, the whole game rests on people that have armies already, second-hand stuff or 3rd-party replacements, all of which make GW no money. Launching a rank-and-file game that rest squarely on the shoulders of FW resin regiments at FW prices is a doomed endeavour. Rules etc. play a distinct second fiddle if nobody can afford the game.


    That's why the old kits coming back means there's plenty of plastics.

    And cheaper than all new plastic line some people hoped for. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539110.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539110.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Gimgamgoo wrote:
    A change in base size, brings about game changing effects. Movement through spaces, frontage size for charging and fighting etc.
    I'm going to assume GW have taken this into account with the statistics of the models they are altering with the necessary playtesting required.



    I'm worried about the implications. Units will have a bigger footprint on average, so maybe the will reduce unit size to a pre-hordes amount to compensate? But that would be quite counter productive to selling more models overall. This game still holds quite a few mysteries.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539113.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539113.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    If the new plastics (especially Bretonnians) are sculpted to match the detail and proportion of older kits (and they might very well be, considering the previewed hero) then I am definitely out. I very much prefer their (GW's) newer sculpt proportions and detail levels.

    I will still probably get any rulebooks though. Especially if there is new fluff and artwork.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539130.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539130.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Tsagualsa wrote:
    Not Online!!! wrote:
    Which is still all irrelevant if gw doesn't lower prices and create a ruleset that for once needs to compete with competent ones from other companies.


    It's directly important because plastic regiment kits are the only product that are affordable enough to allow people to enter the game at all; without a possibility to build the backbone of an army with relatively cheap plastic kits, the whole game rests on people that have armies already, second-hand stuff or 3rd-party replacements, all of which make GW no money. Launching a rank-and-file game that rest squarely on the shoulders of FW resin regiments at FW prices is a doomed endeavour. Rules etc. play a distinct second fiddle if nobody can afford the game.


    Which is preciscly what i stated? The competition is cheaper, has more modern sculpts and better rulesets right now. (And i question their skill to produce a ruleset that is competent enough to draw new blood on it's own merit)

    Bringing back the old plastics is indeed the right call but with how big some units needed to be and the pts we still are in an area were old whfb was and that was a game that par excellence was described as not accessible due to price.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539152.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539152.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Not Online!!! wrote:
    Tsagualsa wrote:
    Not Online!!! wrote:
    Which is still all irrelevant if gw doesn't lower prices and create a ruleset that for once needs to compete with competent ones from other companies.


    It's directly important because plastic regiment kits are the only product that are affordable enough to allow people to enter the game at all; without a possibility to build the backbone of an army with relatively cheap plastic kits, the whole game rests on people that have armies already, second-hand stuff or 3rd-party replacements, all of which make GW no money. Launching a rank-and-file game that rest squarely on the shoulders of FW resin regiments at FW prices is a doomed endeavour. Rules etc. play a distinct second fiddle if nobody can afford the game.


    Which is preciscly what i stated? The competition is cheaper, has more modern sculpts and better rulesets right now. (And i question their skill to produce a ruleset that is competent enough to draw new blood on it's own merit)

    Bringing back the old plastics is indeed the right call but with how big some units needed to be and the pts we still are in an area were old whfb was and that was a game that par excellence was described as not accessible due to price.


    I wrote my answer before i saw your substantial edit, obviously we share a point of view on this project.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539154.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539154.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Taarnak wrote:
    I find it a bit disappointing that they decided to bring old models back for this personally. I understand that this is also probably a minority opinion. I have no old armies anymore so the basing question is a moot point for me.


    I was fine with having old kits in production while they produce new kits for factions (and of course being the majority of stuff people have for a while- stuff to get by until they get to the faction properly).
    I'm less fine with old kits being the majority of stuff in the queue (though several factions had really nice modern kits that were axed for no reason, particularly wood elves)

    Combined with new bases, I think they've immediately made a mess, and there's going to be a lot of flailing (internally and among potential customers) until they decide to do a TOW 2.0 (like HH2.0) or... not.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539158.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539158.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW selling old plastics cheap is possibly optimistic.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539163.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539163.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors TK skellies that are actually usable, buildable models. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539165.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539165.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Tyel wrote:
    I feel GW selling old plastics cheap is possibly optimistic.


    Depends, if you mean real-world-in-absolute-terms-cheap then you're out of luck, if you mean cheap-by-the-standard-of-what -GW-customers-are-conditioned-to-endure-cheap there might be some hope left. Anyway, it's hard to judge the appeal of a classic, 'warhammery' R&F game where about 3/4 of your expensive, painted unit is effectively just wound counters in this day and age, we might see a surprise either way.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539166.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539166.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW could sell them for cheap to entice new players and still make a profit.

    It may depend also on how the rules are structured. If we're returning to units of 4x4 then there will be less need for hundreds of models just to assemble a core force.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539170.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539170.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Tsagualsa wrote:



    I wrote my answer before i saw your substantial edit, obviously we share a point of view on this project.


    No harm done.

    I don't think anyone will defend goldhänders once more. Or bloodknights. hopefully...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539172.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539172.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW prices are not based on cost but on the market

    GW could sell most kits at 50% and still make profit but they don't do it

    If GW wanted a cheap entry into the game, we would see an easy to build starter set
    Just old kits coming back, good chance we see ebay like prices]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539179.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539179.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:

    Just old kits coming back, good chance we see ebay like prices


    So Tomb Guard for 100-300$? Hardly. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539182.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539182.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW web store 20 Night Goblins are $45 and 10 Empire Troops are $35. Since these are the same set that will be coming back to the old world it would be safe to say the price point is somewhere around there.

    Alternatively, 20 KoW Goblins are $37.50 and the average Conquest 12 man warrior kit is $40 to $50 a kit.

    I am inclined to say this is a wash.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539185.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539185.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     catbarf wrote:
    If they're bringing back classic kits, those molds are long since paid for. GW could sell them for cheap to entice new players and still make a profit.


    Since they cut their own tools, all of their plastics are orders of magnitude cheaper for them to produce than if they didn't. Since that is the case, ALL of their plastics could be a lot cheaper than they are. I don't see the old stuff coming back at a price point any cheaper than the new stuff, personally; old molds or not.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539186.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539186.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Paymaster Games wrote:
    According to the GW web store 20 Night Goblins are $45 and 10 Empire Troops are $35. Since these are the same set that will be coming back to the old world it would be safe to say the price point is somewhere around there.

    Alternatively, 20 KoW Goblins are $37.50 and the average Conquest 12 man warrior kit is $40 to $50 a kit.

    I am inclined to say this is a wash.


    Wait and see prices brought back at $85 for night goblins and €65 for empire troops.

    I'm glad I have stacks of backlog for WFB. Seeing kits return will help knock the insane prices down for things like tomb kings, but I feel sorry for anyone needing to start an army from scratch. One of the biggest issues I foresee is the unbalanced pricing.

    They are going to have to juggle selling those 16/20/24 model sets in numbers that make the game profitable & playable, and still convince people that similar models for AoS in sets of 5/10 are worth the same. Or we are just going to see those bigger sets of plastics with huge price increases to 'match' the AoS pricing scheme.

    With the cost of the 5 AoS goblin wolf riders, I dread to think what the old world set is going to be. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539212.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539212.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     catbarf wrote:
    If they're bringing back classic kits, those molds are long since paid for. GW could sell them for cheap


    Are we talking about Games Workshop here? ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539217.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539217.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Paymaster Games wrote:
    According to the GW web store 20 Night Goblins are $45 and 10 Empire Troops are $35. Since these are the same set that will be coming back to the old world it would be safe to say the price point is somewhere around there.

    Alternatively, 20 KoW Goblins are $37.50 and the average Conquest 12 man warrior kit is $40 to $50 a kit.

    I am inclined to say this is a wash.

    Those are some odd cherries to pick.
    GW makes amazing models (for what it's worth, good luck actually playing games with them), but don't come anywhere close to offering valye for money.

    Let's include a few more kits in the comparison before declaring it "a wash":
    I see $55 for 20 goblins from GW.
    $75 for 5 cavalry.
    $40 for 10 from GW, for the older kits.
    Or $170 for a 35 model start collecting.
    $40 for a single plastic character.

    Then $65 for a battle tome.
    Mantic sell a rulebook with all the lists for $50.

    $37.50 for 20 plastic Mantic infantry.
    You can get 40 goblins and 2 mincers in a $45 Ambush starter though.
    Ambush is the low points game mode aimed at getting new players in.
    The $165 starter set has 80 goblins, an 18cm giant and 33 other models.

    Resin from Mantic is more expensive though.
    Mantic are making their resin models available as stls through a subscription service to address that though.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539218.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539218.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Tyel wrote:
    I feel GW selling old plastics cheap is possibly optimistic.

    Especially after what happened with the Steel Legion M2O pricing - though I appreciate that was metal, not plastic.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539228.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539228.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW are currently having trouble making enough product to meet demand.

    I think it's very optimistic to expect the old kits to be priced as anything other than comparable to 40k/AoS/HH plastics. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539231.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539231.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539249.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539249.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mr Morden wrote:
    Yeah I assume that they will just use their standard pricing structure.


    Just look at how they're pricing current FW HH stuff - 35€ for a pretty plain SM Librarian sculpt. 35€ for a torso with an Assault Cannon to stick into your tanks. 45€ for one dude with a small-ish back banner. 50€ for a Terminator character with not much bling. If prices are anyway near that they're too high. If that one Bretonnian dude we saw in the sneak peek was 40€, not many people would pull the trigger for what ultimately is a pretty generic fantasy knight.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539250.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539250.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Tsagualsa wrote:
     Mr Morden wrote:
    Yeah I assume that they will just use their standard pricing structure.


    Just look at how they're pricing current FW HH stuff - 35€ for a pretty plain SM Librarian sculpt. 35€ for a torso with an Assault Cannon to stick into your tanks. 45€ for one dude with a small-ish back banner. 50€ for a Terminator character with not much bling. If prices are anyway near that they're too high. If that one Bretonnian dude we saw in the sneak peek was 40€, not many people would pull the trigger for what ultimately is a pretty generic fantasy knight.


    I agree which does not bode well for the range]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539254.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539254.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mr Morden wrote:
    Tsagualsa wrote:
     Mr Morden wrote:
    Yeah I assume that they will just use their standard pricing structure.


    Just look at how they're pricing current FW HH stuff - 35€ for a pretty plain SM Librarian sculpt. 35€ for a torso with an Assault Cannon to stick into your tanks. 45€ for one dude with a small-ish back banner. 50€ for a Terminator character with not much bling. If prices are anyway near that they're too high. If that one Bretonnian dude we saw in the sneak peek was 40€, not many people would pull the trigger for what ultimately is a pretty generic fantasy knight.


    I agree which does not bode well for the range


    Also, due to the game still being pretty far out (by what we've been shown so far) it has ample opportunity to pick up a couple of GW's typical price increases until release ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539258.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539258.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     GaroRobe wrote:
     catbarf wrote:
    If they're bringing back classic kits, those molds are long since paid for. GW could sell them for cheap


    Are we talking about Games Workshop here?


    Yeah, Games Workshop, the company that loves to fleece you for every dollar but also is willing to cut you a deal (see: Start Collecting, new edition boxed sets) if they think it'll lead to you spending more in the long run.

    It's been a while since they killed Fantasy, but they have to be aware that the enormous buy-in cost was part of what sunk the game. Using the old plastic infantry as lead-ins to the more expensive characters and special kits you need to actually build out an army could be a viable marketing approach.

    I don't know if they will or won't. Just wouldn't make assumptions about pricing yet.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539259.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539259.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Luke82 wrote:
    If you flip a 25mm base upside down, a 20mm base nestles in it quite nicely (and I would imagine 25mm bases will do the same with what ever base replaces them, too). Saves a fortune on spaced movement trays, and means models can be used in older editions as well.


    Sir you are wise.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539266.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539266.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW sells 10 tactical (or intercessors) for $60 for 40k and 20 tactical MKIII for $80 for 30k right? Different price points can exist between different games, I think that example illustrates it perfectly and likely what we see in ToW.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Luke82 wrote:
    If you flip a 25mm base upside down, a 20mm base nestles in it quite nicely (and I would imagine 25mm bases will do the same with what ever base replaces them, too). Saves a fortune on spaced movement trays, and means models can be used in older editions as well.


    After reading through all the criticism (some warranted) in this thread, it's nice to see something positive and incredibly useful posted here.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539298.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539298.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Mozzamanx wrote:

    So we now have a game mode that is not readily compatible with anything else and does not provide equal support to all its factions. For veteran WFB players it does not seem at all appealing to rebase anything, even if I end up playing TOW as a ruleset.


    It's not for the armies you already possess for sure. The question isn't the same for new collections.

    As for using them for other game systems...actually, other rule sets work very well with bigger square bases.It's just a matter of bigger footprint of the unit on the battlefield, that's all. It's not as game breaking as you may think. Well, unless you play hardcore competitive tournaments, but people recycling miniatures from another game usually don't use them for that reason anyway.



    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539312.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539312.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors MDF base-conversion trays with a sheet of tin will still be an ideal means of playing ToW with old armies if ToW is any good, but I do like the 25mm upside down base thing. Bravo!

    I'm still just glad to have to the old units coming back, even modern GW prices are a fraction of the ebay stupidity in recent years. If I could just get a High Elf Noble kit for less that $100 then that would be great. New kits will be lovely, but I am 100% here for old kits returning. $60 for Witch Aelves is dumb, but $120+ for 5 Dragon Princes is beyond the pale.

    I really really REALLY hope the rules are based on the boxes. A return to the hordes units of 8th would kill this game dead dead dead dead dead. But man, if an elite unit of 10 Swordsmasters could be as effective as a unit of 20 Night Goblins then that would be amazing.

    Dear GW, please bring back normal units max 20, elite units max 10, amen.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539379.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539379.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539387.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539387.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    You will still need a movement tray in the end, though.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539395.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539395.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539397.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539397.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    A few months ago the warhammer Facebook page replied to me saying that they hadnt heard anything about plans to update the Daemon Prince but to keep an eye out in the future. A month later they announced the new Daemon Prince kit. The people that run the social media teams know basically nothing about long term plans and always frame everything in the context of "who knows what might happen woooo anything is possible ahhhh".
    Wait, you think they didn't know about the new Daemon Prince and, that if they'd just been pre-informed about a new DP prior to your question that they would have told you and revealed it to the world via Facebook answering some random person's question? Really?



    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539403.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539403.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Still think it is just vaporware. I'm trying hard to expect nothing from GW so I don't feel let down.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539428.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539428.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors THEN we have a price discussion!

    For the Empire - I wish they bring back the old early 2000s States Troops and those ugly 2006 ones stay with AoS or dissapear completely...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539445.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539445.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I had a box of 20 that I mixed with the Mordheim sprue that I used to make so many varied Marienburgers, Reiklanders, and Middenheimers.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539448.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539448.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    A few months ago the warhammer Facebook page replied to me saying that they hadnt heard anything about plans to update the Daemon Prince but to keep an eye out in the future. A month later they announced the new Daemon Prince kit. The people that run the social media teams know basically nothing about long term plans and always frame everything in the context of "who knows what might happen woooo anything is possible ahhhh".
    Wait, you think they didn't know about the new Daemon Prince and, that if they'd just been pre-informed about a new DP prior to your question that they would have told you and revealed it to the world via Facebook answering some random person's question? Really?





    If they knew they would have likely excluded the part about "haven't heard anything" and left it more vague. It's marketing 101, you don't want your community outreach and marketing arm to be seen as lying or am unreliable partner to your community.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539456.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539456.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW's social media team don't even have to be at the GW HQ. They just need to manage the FB and be fed information as they are required to have it.

    Even if they are at the HQ if they aren't in the design or other teams they might well not even hear about things. Remember AoS was kept very secret for a very long time and some key staff didn't know it was a thing almost until we knew.


    Plus even if they do know something, if they are not allowed to talk about it they won't even hint at it. This isn't a small 3-10 man gaming team; its a large company operating as large companies do. Information is compartmentalised and the marketing is company style.



    This is not totally a bad thing. Anyone who recalls Spartan Games would recall many times they'd openly show previews or concepts or hint at things coming which would sound like they were weeks/months off but would sometimes take years or never come. Teasing things too early has issues; its why GW rarely does it (Old World is perhaps the only example of them really doing a long term tease).

    Long term forecasting is hard. Finances change; projects get unforeseen delays or problems; concepts that sounded good turn out to not work (maybe its an unfun idea or the mechanics of the model don't stand up to mass production in the chosen material). Maybe finances are hard and the superlarge resin model is too much an investment. Perhaps Steve who designed 50% of it leaves the company and no one left can pick up the leftover parts; or perhaps he leaves it in some folder on the computer that no one else recalls how to find etc...

    There are lots of ways that long term forecasting can fail. Heck anyone who regularly backs Kickstarters knows to never expect delivery date to be real unless its pretty much a pre-order for something already designed, made and just needing a bulk order; and even then it can still backfire for a few weeks/month or two. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539458.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539458.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors FB page team isn't marketing though, at least not in the normal way.
    Their job is to post links to stuff and answer some questions all of which will be replied to with pre-determined answers.
    Is it smart? Not really but considering how leaky the GW boat seems to be already, paranoia isn't paranoia when it's actually happening.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539462.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539462.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539464.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539464.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXfYHJweaE8&t=71s


    The start set rumor is doing the rounds again. Who knows. I feel the whole game now seems like vaporware and wont appear until 2025; I seem to have time to paint my remaining Empire metals up.

    Should I assume its 50% Special units, with no unit count limit? Hence I can run 3 cannons and 3 Greatswords units at 2500 points?

    These are the questions that haunts me as I plot and plan how and what to paint.

    As far as commenting on the rumors that the setting is one where Chaos is at a low point/ebb and there are no hordes of daemons around, that suits me fine. We're getting enough daemons in the other 2-3 games they are releasing. A more grounded Empire Centric game suits me well.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539479.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539479.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     triplegrim wrote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXfYHJweaE8&t=71s


    The start set rumor is doing the rounds again. Who knows. I feel the whole game now seems like vaporware and wont appear until 2025; I seem to have time to paint my remaining Empire metals up.

    Should I assume its 50% Special units, with no unit count limit? Hence I can run 3 cannons and 3 Greatswords units at 2500 points?

    These are the questions that haunts me as I plot and plan how and what to paint.

    As far as commenting on the rumors that the setting is one where Chaos is at a low point/ebb and there are no hordes of daemons around, that suits me fine. We're getting enough daemons in the other 2-3 games they are releasing. A more grounded Empire Centric game suits me well.



    It's unclear what system of army selection this game will use, it has not been stated that unit slots or even percentages will be used. From what we've seen from 'mood shots' and such so far, the game feels a bit smaller than WHFB, although that may be a personal impression, subject to change nearer to release date etc. I'd not bank on multiple 'Special' units and warmachines in a typical game though. My impression (again, personal impression, not based on any facts whatsoever) seems to be that this game is aimed at being somewhere between 1000 and 1500 points in 'classic' WHFB.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539482.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539482.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW will presumably be bringing back the big monsters - and if so, games will need to be at a certain points so they are playable.

    Admittedly, I know a section of the playerbase would perhaps like GW to go "the big centre piece kits we tried to sell through 8th were a mistake (also monstrous cavalry, what was that all about?) and they won't be in TOW" - but I can't see it.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539962.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539962.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Tyel wrote:
    I'd be surprised if the points is low for much the same reason the points tended to rise last time round. GW will presumably be bringing back the big monsters - and if so, games will need to be at a certain points so they are playable.

    Admittedly, I know a section of the playerbase would perhaps like GW to go "the big centre piece kits we tried to sell through 8th were a mistake (also monstrous cavalry, what was that all about?) and they won't be in TOW" - but I can't see it.


    AFAIK they already said that there is no intention to bring back the FW resin monsters, and iirc the only monster we have seen so far in a photograph was the old Treeman. We also know that the Necrosphinx will return, as that was specifically called out at Warhammerfest.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539964.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11539964.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/06/01/celebrate-the-40th-anniversary-of-warhammer-with-new-collectible-stamps-from-royal-mail/

    So have we just had a sneaky confirmation of things to come? One of the artwork stamps says „Warhammer the Old World / Battle for Skull Pass“. In line with the Rogue Trader artwork they could just have said WHFB but chose to mention their upcoming game. Does that mean they will redo that box?

    And also, can anyone see if the two ToW stamps with photos (dwarfs & high elves) show us anything new? I was in hobby hiatus during WHFB‘s last years.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11541846.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11541846.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    would be the same to say that the we are going to see a Rouge Trade release in 40k because of the stamp]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11541864.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11541864.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    because this is the name of that artwork

    would be the same to say that the we are going to see a Rouge Trade release in 40k because of the stamp


    I didn't realize women's make-up was such a hot commodity in the 41st Millenium...
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11542302.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11542302.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Just Tony wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    because this is the name of that artwork

    would be the same to say that the we are going to see a Rouge Trade release in 40k because of the stamp


    I didn't realize women's make-up was such a hot commodity in the 41st Millenium...


    Aspirations to vanity are a path to Slaanesh worship, and thus heresy. Naturally that makes it rare, even for the elites. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11542311.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11542311.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11542334.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11542334.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/06/21/40-years-of-warhammer-a-rotten-lord-raises-his-axe-for-nurgle/

    Nurgle lord & Glottkin celebrated in pictures in the 40th year celebration. End Times mentioned too.

    Perhaos of some small interest, the grey 90s illustration style from the tomb king and brets 2023 releases are also used, which is always good looking imo.


    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11554712.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11554712.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I was under the impression that we've entered monthly updates territory but there's been nada in June so far...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11556284.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11556284.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    while people expect major news to drop in October when the article series is done]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11556286.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11556286.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/06/26/the-not-warhammer-40000-preview-drops-on-the-1st-of-july/


    * whole is an inference on my part ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11556397.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11556397.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Geifer wrote:
    Online preview on Saturday, promising to reveal one whole* model:


    It will surely deserve a full trailer of 5 minutes and a powerpoint with artworks !

    * The sad part is that I totally believes that will be the entire preview of The Old World on that day]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11556566.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11556566.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sarouan wrote:
     Geifer wrote:
    Online preview on Saturday, promising to reveal one whole* model:


    It will surely deserve a full trailer of 5 minutes and a powerpoint with artworks !

    * The sad part is that I totally believes that will be the entire preview of The Old World on that day


    Maybe it will be a lady of the lake, one of those sorceresses for bretonnia. I just got a vibe for a female model this month.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11556593.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11556593.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW showed a Tomb King and Bretonnian already. If they're going to drip feed us new models, I'd expect to see one of each of the core or whatever it was factions before a focus on a single faction.

    Could go either way, of course. Not like we actually have much of a clue yet what GW is doing with The Old World.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11556853.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11556853.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Geifer wrote:
    My first guess would be an Empire dude. GW showed a Tomb King and Bretonnian already. If they're going to drip feed us new models, I'd expect to see one of each of the core or whatever it was factions before a focus on a single faction.

    Could go either way, of course. Not like we actually have much of a clue yet what GW is doing with The Old World.


    Apart from that its at least a 2025 release?

    Presumably the unit points system/faux power level system will be implemented, going by 40k 10th. Seemed like a game philosophy choice to me.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557139.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557139.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557145.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557145.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     triplegrim wrote:
     Geifer wrote:
    My first guess would be an Empire dude. GW showed a Tomb King and Bretonnian already. If they're going to drip feed us new models, I'd expect to see one of each of the core or whatever it was factions before a focus on a single faction.

    Could go either way, of course. Not like we actually have much of a clue yet what GW is doing with The Old World.


    Apart from that its at least a 2025 release?

    Presumably the unit points system/faux power level system will be implemented, going by 40k 10th. Seemed like a game philosophy choice to me.

    Does The Horus Heresy use faux power levels?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557152.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557152.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors 40K game philosophy choice may well be a thing but this isn't the same studio. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557343.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557343.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors CR bonus, regardless of their stats.

    As outdated as GW designs still are in many areas, I think their designers are wiser than that now.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557348.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557348.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Cyel wrote:
    Well, the' classic' points system with its 'points per model' costs was inherently flawed in WFB. You paid wildly varying costs for models in the back ranks of units, that mostly did exactly the same thing in the game - provided a static CR bonus, regardless of their stats.

    As outdated as GW designs still are in many areas, I think their designers are wiser than that now.


    You didn't play 8th edition, did you. You don't pay for "back ranks" in a game where you can change formations that have widly different effects in game. Points can't take into account all the situations you have to face in game, and they will never be.

    Besides, "point per model" cost is only a problem when you abuse the system on a hardcore competitive level. It was always a player personnality centered problem. It was never meant to be perfect, not even talking about balance...it was just a tool to build lists of somewhat "equal level". Reason it was at that level of detail is because at that time, customisation of unit equipment was deep in its core design (with unit modularity as well). Nowadays, when you look at AoS miniatures with less and less options (or even non-existent modularity with the models), it is sadly less relevant, thus the use of "Power Level" system.

    It really depends on how GW will release future new kits, but I'm not optimistic about going back to the modularity of old editions of Warhammer Battle. But there are good chances they'll use "point per model", indeed. Will still not be balanced and there will still be people complaining about it, but that's the way it is.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557362.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557362.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    JimmyWolf87 wrote:
    Can't see them doing that in the slightest for TOW. Fully expecting the 'classic' points and some manner of force organization chart. 10th Edition 40K game philosophy choice may well be a thing but this isn't the same studio.
    and AoS Team is a different studio as well yet 40k team took over the point system from them
    yet TOW is for now advertised at people who played the game in the past and it makes more sense to keep the old system for that target group

    yet it could also be that they want to make it easier and points are based on boxes so you buy units rather than models]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557372.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557372.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sarouan wrote:
    Cyel wrote:
    Well, the' classic' points system with its 'points per model' costs was inherently flawed in WFB. You paid wildly varying costs for models in the back ranks of units, that mostly did exactly the same thing in the game - provided a static CR bonus, regardless of their stats.

    As outdated as GW designs still are in many areas, I think their designers are wiser than that now.


    You didn't play 8th edition, did you.


    You're right. It introduced random charge ranges and I had no desire to play such game so 7th is the last one I've had experience with.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557373.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557373.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Cyel wrote:
    Well, the' classic' points system with its 'points per model' costs was inherently flawed in WFB. You paid wildly varying costs for models in the back ranks of units, that mostly did exactly the same thing in the game - provided a static CR bonus, regardless of their stats.

    As outdated as GW designs still are in many areas, I think their designers are wiser than that now.


    Apparently I was playing a very different game then because the notion that extra bodies in units did nothing more than provide a static CR bonus is pretty nonsensical to me. Even at a bare minimum it's extra wounds before you're eating into the potential for reducing that +3 CR 'ranks' result and that's only looking at bigger blocks of infantry. I'm not going to argue that there aren't flaws or balance issues but personally I much prefer the granularity of points per model. The difference between, say a 9-model unit of heavy cavalry (probably to include a character) and a 10 model unit might seem arbitrary but if that extra model is 40 or 50 points then that's a not-insubstantial factor in a 1500-2000 point game when it comes to list building and I like that level of choice. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557377.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557377.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    JimmyWolf87 wrote:
    Apparently I was playing a very different game then because the notion that extra bodies in units did nothing more than provide a static CR bonus is pretty nonsensical to me. Even at a bare minimum it's extra wounds before you're eating into the potential for reducing that +3 CR 'ranks' result and that's only looking at bigger blocks of infantry.


    The explanation Alessio gave as to why points per model was poor is because the value of a Chaos Warrior hitting people is substantially higher than the value of one standing around providing 20%of a single point of static CR, at at the very least it would be a better reflection to price for additional ranks rather than additional models.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557383.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557383.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Baragash wrote:
    JimmyWolf87 wrote:
    Apparently I was playing a very different game then because the notion that extra bodies in units did nothing more than provide a static CR bonus is pretty nonsensical to me. Even at a bare minimum it's extra wounds before you're eating into the potential for reducing that +3 CR 'ranks' result and that's only looking at bigger blocks of infantry.


    The explanation Alessio gave as to why points per model was poor is because the value of a Chaos Warrior hitting people is substantially higher than the value of one standing around providing 20%of a single point of static CR, at at the very least it would be a better reflection to price for additional ranks rather than additional models.


    Sure but, to an extent you can bake that into the actual points and it's somewhat reflected in the respective unit sizes. I push back on the argument that those extra models are just providing additional static CR, particularly at the more elite unit end of the spectrum. If anything I'd hope TOW is going to err more towards the lower model count end of the scale anyway (more 4th/5th Edition then 8th...) and the diminishing returns of sinking points into big footprint units is more pronounced.

    I'd also argue that there could be a more holistic response; actual scenario objectives and victory mechanics in WHF could certainly have offered more variety in order to give a better representation of unit 'value' over just how good they were at killing things. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557389.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557389.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    making the per model points go down the larger the unit gets]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557391.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557391.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors AoS had that during 2.0. One problem with it is that it greatly encourages you to take full unit blocks and makes them more and more efficient the bigger they get.

    This isn't bad in itself because it allows big infantry blocks to be viable. The downside though is that it can push out middle-weight and elite unit blocks in favour of simply flooding the board with cheaper core infantry.

    It's very difficult to balance units of fewer number into a system where taking all or nothing is basically encouraged and where big infantry blocks just get better and better the more points you put into them.


    It closes down the viability of smaller elements on the table.



    Of course in typical GW fashion they solved this by going a bit overboard against big infantry blocks in 3rd edition by both removing the discount for taking more models per unit and also by removing the ability to take more than 2 full units at 2K points through the reinforcement point system. Which in itself wasn't a bad idea, but I feel was a heavy hand across all armies when forces should vary. Elite Stormcast armies should have had fewer reinforcement points compared to armies like Skaven who should have had more for their chaff-like skaven.

    But that's all drilling down into more complexity - the upshot is that units that get cheaper per model, as they get bigger, heavily encourages big units ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557393.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557393.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors AoS because there are no LOS or movement restrictions

    Bigger being more point efficient but also harder to get those points working ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557412.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557412.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    JimmyWolf87 wrote:
    Can't see them doing that in the slightest for TOW. Fully expecting the 'classic' points and some manner of force organization chart. 10th Edition 40K game philosophy choice may well be a thing but this isn't the same studio.


    Like "Lords cannot exceed 25% of your force, Heroes cannot exceed 50% of your force, special units cannot exceed 50% of your force, and rare units cannot exceed more than 25% of your force. You must include 1 core unit per 1,000 points."

    8th wasn't a terrible ruleset. There are things that should be tweaked like steadfast, magic that effects entire units taking characteristic tests or dying (while basic stats being 2-3 so you'd lose 50-67% of the unit), and an overall balancing of the game. WHFB had sharp tiers vs what current AOS is balanced to. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557415.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557415.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors CR, or rely on the performance of the ones at the front for direct CR.

    making the rear bodies cheaper doesn't work, especially as you then have that on the crappy horde stuff which depends on static CR and all you do is put more models on the table


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    also 8th amused me, yes there were "six dice this super spell!!" things, these were in effect a hard counter to a "deathstar" unit, if your force didn't depend upon a single brick such spells were dangerous but less of an issue, same with the scenarios, if you only ever played "battleline" I think it was called the game was quite different to if you played all six scenarios

    I saw a lot of tournament packs that tried to limit the six dice magic, which yes is a bit crap but has its purpose, and then as a result had to stick a whole load more rules in to counter deathstars

    the games I played with it out of the box so to speak went quite well, you could have the deathstar, but you placed a lot in the lap of lady luck doing it, or you could spread your points out a bit and do better more generally

    e.g. the enemy has a deathstar and you don't have a super wizard, well it can be blocked, distracted, entertained with garbage if they only have the one block

    a lot depended how you wanted it to go, only having to kill 100 points more than your enemy for a win helped, it was another counter to the deathstars, kill a support unit or two then avoid it]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557416.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557416.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    leopard wrote:
    a killy R&F unit should be high cost per model, yes the ones behind are not contributing to the fight directly - thats then a player choice, have those extra bodies for the static CR, or rely on the performance of the ones at the front for direct CR.

    making the rear bodies cheaper doesn't work, especially as you then have that on the crappy horde stuff which depends on static CR and all you do is put more models on the table


    All of this depends on your combat system, how 'stepping up' works, if you can fight with back ranks, and how many, if 'static CR' is even a thing and how much it matters, and so on. Even then, you can use this as a design element and let e.g. 'horde' armies (or units) have decreasing costs for further ranks, while e.g. Speardudes have constant cost, or even increasing cost, and Elite units have increasing or even quadratic costs. Of course, you'd need to check such a system thoroughly and getting it right would be tricky.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557417.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557417.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    In R&F being a large unit is a big disadvantage which is not present that way in AoS because there are no LOS or movement restrictions


    The truth is that such a statement is wrong, because it assumes it will be a disadvantage in all situations in game. Depending of the victory conditions, strategic positions, availability of the armies or even the terrain disposition, it can actually be an advantage in itself. For example, big units can block enemy passage in a crucial chokepoint with their big imprint on the battlefield, much easier than multiple smaller ones.

    Which is a reason belief points solve everything in balance is fundamentally flawed, and people only looking at them for that matter are just fooling themselves. That's not how a wargame works.

    When Kill Team came without points and just set warbands, these people were screaming about imbalance. But the reality of current Kill Team is that points aren't needed for balance. They just put another system based on a definite set of models to be used by all for "balance". And it actually works.

    I don't expect TOW to come without points, by the way, since it's all about nostalgia and going back to the old days of Warhammer Battle. But thinking points in absolute is the grail of balanced wargames was already proved wrong so many times in the past. It's just a question of habit that they're used so often, that's all.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557418.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557418.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors WHFB from 3rd onwards when I started playing it was the requirement to charge into combat

    for me it should have been possible to move into combat as well, at a cost of losing all charge bonuses/impact hits etc.

    why?

    because half the time the safest place to be was right next to an enemy unit, they couldn't charge you as you were not in front, and would block ranged fire at you from about a 180 degree arc.

    where as in practice a few blokes would wander sideways and say "I have a very sharp bit of metal, would you like to see it?"

    and yes I get the point on how you need to adjust the combat system around how you pick points - however I seldom saw a proper fightly unit actually lose a fight to chaff, even with the chaff CR considered - they just killed far too many for it to matter

    what mattered then was steadfast meaning units seldom broke - if you had a choice, take the morale test on a characters leadership, with modifiers, or on the units unmodified leadership without modifiers I think it would have been better

    would also have gone back to the "free hack" system, whereby a unit can withdraw from any combat, though its enemy gets a "free hack" - i.e. gets to make a single attack per model that automatically hits, resolve as normal

    result being its a lot harder for chaff to tarpit an elite unit, say chaos knights trapped by skaven slaves, the knights can probably risk the strikes from the slaves not doing significant damage and so can pull back, potentially allowing another unit to block the slaves from going back in

    thing is, as has been noted before there is a lot you could do to "fix" warhammer, but in so doing it stops being warhammer

    I thought 8th worked pretty well, some of the army books needed a re-write and the various colours of magic needed adjusting so they were all more or less the same in utility

    I do expect a lot of "AoS" stuff however to come over, specifically "upgrades are free" and "you buy units in blocks that are multiples of the box contents" to "simplify" things. the rest I think will be largely unchanged]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557424.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557424.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Altruizine wrote:
     triplegrim wrote:
     Geifer wrote:
    My first guess would be an Empire dude. GW showed a Tomb King and Bretonnian already. If they're going to drip feed us new models, I'd expect to see one of each of the core or whatever it was factions before a focus on a single faction.

    Could go either way, of course. Not like we actually have much of a clue yet what GW is doing with The Old World.


    Apart from that its at least a 2025 release?

    Presumably the unit points system/faux power level system will be implemented, going by 40k 10th. Seemed like a game philosophy choice to me.

    Does The Horus Heresy use faux power levels?


    Nope, HH doesn't. Not only does it not use faux powerlevels but it actually iterated in pts cost even and is seemingly not affraid to go under the 5pts bracket either.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557431.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557431.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors HH has the idea that you buy a block of say ten marines, which will include a sergeant, for a set point value.

    and can then add extra bodies, at a slight discount, then pay upgrades for the lot or model by model

    also vehicle squadrons where the extra hulls cost less than the first]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557432.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557432.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    leopard wrote:
    I do expect a lot of "AoS" stuff however to come over, specifically "upgrades are free" and "you buy units in blocks that are multiples of the box contents" to "simplify" things. the rest I think will be largely unchanged


    I don't, this is the fantasy grognard game, it should be as detailed and fiddly as Necromunda or Heresy.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557434.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557434.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    leopard wrote:
    I do expect a lot of "AoS" stuff however to come over, specifically "upgrades are free" and "you buy units in blocks that are multiples of the box contents" to "simplify" things. the rest I think will be largely unchanged


    I don't, this is the fantasy grognard game, it should be as detailed and fiddly as Necromunda or Heresy.


    fully agree thats how it should be

    however this is GW, the rules will be a "least possible effort" thing]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557435.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557435.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    leopard wrote:
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    leopard wrote:
    I do expect a lot of "AoS" stuff however to come over, specifically "upgrades are free" and "you buy units in blocks that are multiples of the box contents" to "simplify" things. the rest I think will be largely unchanged


    I don't, this is the fantasy grognard game, it should be as detailed and fiddly as Necromunda or Heresy.


    fully agree thats how it should be

    however this is GW, the rules will be a "least possible effort" thing


    The Old World is done by the Forge World/Specialist Games team, so at least there is something to be said for waiting until we actually see them screw things up before we worry about that stuff, regardless of how psychotic we think the 40k rules team is.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557439.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557439.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sarouan wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    In R&F being a large unit is a big disadvantage which is not present that way in AoS because there are no LOS or movement restrictions


    The truth is that such a statement is wrong, because it assumes it will be a disadvantage in all situations in game. Depending of the victory conditions, strategic positions, availability of the armies or even the terrain disposition, it can actually be an advantage in itself. For example, big units can block enemy passage in a crucial chokepoint with their big imprint on the battlefield, much easier than multiple smaller ones.

    Which is a reason belief points solve everything in balance is fundamentally flawed, and people only looking at them for that matter are just fooling themselves. That's not how a wargame works.

    When Kill Team came without points and just set warbands, these people were screaming about imbalance. But the reality of current Kill Team is that points aren't needed for balance. They just put another system based on a definite set of models to be used by all for "balance". And it actually works.

    I don't expect TOW to come without points, by the way, since it's all about nostalgia and going back to the old days of Warhammer Battle. But thinking points in absolute is the grail of balanced wargames was already proved wrong so many times in the past. It's just a question of habit that they're used so often, that's all.


    No one is claiming points solve all balance issues. But you're ignoring the fact that by far the easiest and fairest way to play a pick up game with someone you don't necessarily know really well is to have a points limit. The more complex the options, the more complex the restrictions should be (e.g. limited "elite" units, better equipment costing more etc).]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557445.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557445.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    bobthe4th wrote:
    But you're ignoring the fact that by far the easiest and fairest way to play a pick up game with someone you don't necessarily know really well is to have a points limit.


    That's actually not true, especially because it's not a fact at all. Points is simply a convention, but it's not a guarantee of balance at all. The actual easiest way is to use set units without having to bother building a list with points - like GW does with combat patrols in 10th edition. Buy a combat patrol box and play with it. Can't make it any simpler and easier than that, really. Very newcomer friendly as well.

    As to be "fair"...it's so subjective it's not really a point in itself.

    What is true is that we have people partisan of points system who are very vocal about how good it is and how a game without it is not worth it. They do spend a lot of energy in that, but that doesn't make it true (mostly, they're afraid of another system because they don't want to play without points). It's not about balance, it's about habits.


    The more complex the options, the more complex the restrictions should be (e.g. limited "elite" units, better equipment costing more etc).


    That only applies for competitive scene. For a "pick up" game, the more complex your restrictions are, the less appealing your game becomes to newcomers.


    Here, with TOW...they already stated the point of this game is not to be appealing to the main market, but to this very niche core of Warhammer Battle fans. So it's not about efficiency or being newcomer friendly ; it's about nostalgia and keeping the veteran players in their comfort zone. So points will be here, I have no doubt.

    What will be different with old Battle is the way GW uses nowadays tools to exploit data for "balance" (mostly tournaments) and having points updated given the results to keep abusively optimized armies to stop being so effective. So there's that. But GW knows very well what points are meant to be and what they are not. A different cost for "unit back ranks" will not happen, simply because on the opposite of KoW, Battle unit formations can be changed in game - and thus back rank "being useless" depend wildly from the formation and situation they are in. Their combat efficiency is not absolute in their stats alone.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557452.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557452.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW and asked to remove all IP-protected art & text.

    Initially posted on Facebook, here's a link to tga where the post was copied :

    https://www.tga.community/forums/topic/22826-the-rumour-thread/?&page=4236#comments

    Could be an indicator that TOW might indeed release this year as rumored..]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557456.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557456.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Old-Four-Arms wrote:
    Mathias Eliasson's WAP (Warhammer Army Project) - "9th Ed." has been contacted by GW and asked to remove all IP-protected art & text.

    Initially posted on Facebook, here's a link to tga where the post was copied :

    https://www.tga.community/forums/topic/22826-the-rumour-thread/?&page=4236#comments

    Could be an indicator that TOW might indeed release this year as rumored..


    Hardly a surprise (even to them). Do seem to be rumblings about an October/November release but given we don't know how much beyond the rules/lore is going to be 'new' in terms of physical releases, it's hard to gauge how viable that sounds (alongside the also heavily rumoured Epic reboot in some guise from the same team). ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557461.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557461.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    might be related, might be something else (like GW was not aware of the details of that project and only recently found out)

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557465.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557465.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    Maybe, but Fluffhammer was contacted 2019/2020 to remove all IP protected stuff and people thought this indicates a release soon

    might be related, might be something else (like GW was not aware of the details of that project and only recently found out)



    Might just be the legal department completing their quota of 'things done this quarter' at the eleventh hour ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557469.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557469.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557481.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557481.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Old-Four-Arms wrote:
    Mathias Eliasson's WAP (Warhammer Army Project) - "9th Ed." has been contacted by GW and asked to remove all IP-protected art & text.

    Initially posted on Facebook, here's a link to tga where the post was copied :

    https://www.tga.community/forums/topic/22826-the-rumour-thread/?&page=4236#comments

    Could be an indicator that TOW might indeed release this year as rumored..


    If they first got around to doing that now, it probably means a september 2025 release, right?

    This is not something you do 3 months before launch.

    Judging by the single model they are going to present on saturday, I think we are 20 months at least from a release. If they have a game at all, and its not just vaporware. As I've said before, just a reprint of 6th starter box, digital army books and limited support would be fine by me. Or ditto for 7th or 8th. Or just whatever.

    I've been paying a few WR and WAP games, and they are no worse than anything GW will release after years of tinkering with the promised Old World.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557509.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557509.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Cyel wrote:
    Sarouan wrote:
    Cyel wrote:
    Well, the' classic' points system with its 'points per model' costs was inherently flawed in WFB. You paid wildly varying costs for models in the back ranks of units, that mostly did exactly the same thing in the game - provided a static CR bonus, regardless of their stats.

    As outdated as GW designs still are in many areas, I think their designers are wiser than that now.


    You didn't play 8th edition, did you.


    You're right. It introduced random charge ranges and I had no desire to play such game so 7th is the last one I've had experience with.


    Kinda curious.

    Do you think every charge ever done in medieval history was done at exactly the same range every time, regardless of minor variations in terrain?


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Baragash wrote:
    JimmyWolf87 wrote:
    Apparently I was playing a very different game then because the notion that extra bodies in units did nothing more than provide a static CR bonus is pretty nonsensical to me. Even at a bare minimum it's extra wounds before you're eating into the potential for reducing that +3 CR 'ranks' result and that's only looking at bigger blocks of infantry.


    The explanation Alessio gave as to why points per model was poor is because the value of a Chaos Warrior hitting people is substantially higher than the value of one standing around providing 20%of a single point of static CR, at at the very least it would be a better reflection to price for additional ranks rather than additional models.


    That Chaos Warrior in the back has one more function beyond providing static CR. He is making sure anyone who dares charge the unit from behind will have a very, very bad day.

    I made that mistake once, early on. Got a unit of CW surrounded and charged them on all sides. The CW trashed the small units on the flanks and rear so badly the accumulated ACR shattered the big block in front.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557711.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557711.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Vulcan wrote:
    Cyel wrote:
    Sarouan wrote:
    Cyel wrote:
    Well, the' classic' points system with its 'points per model' costs was inherently flawed in WFB. You paid wildly varying costs for models in the back ranks of units, that mostly did exactly the same thing in the game - provided a static CR bonus, regardless of their stats.

    As outdated as GW designs still are in many areas, I think their designers are wiser than that now.


    You didn't play 8th edition, did you.


    You're right. It introduced random charge ranges and I had no desire to play such game so 7th is the last one I've had experience with.


    Kinda curious.

    Do you think every charge ever done in medieval history was done at exactly the same range every time, regardless of minor variations in terrain?



    With wargames everyone has their own limit point on how much random is too much or what parts they want to be random. Sometimes a mechanic in isolation is totally fine, but when combined with others the collective experience can be a problem for some.

    I don't think it helps that GW is always "shaking things up" between editions. Heck right now the 40K crowd are going nuts because it seems that GW has cut down upgrade parts drastically from what they've historically been for decades. Big changes like that don't mean that new version is any less fun nor tactical or challenging; its just different. For some they get used to it; some like it; some tolerate and for others its just a direction they didn't want the game to go in.


    For some Strategy games are about devising a plan and putting it into motion against your opponent. They don't want random charge distances causing their plan to fail because it feels like the agency for choices in movement is being taken out of their hands. All their careful plan undone because of a dice roll.
    For others they love it, it brings the chaos of the battlefield home for them and they like the additional concern that their unit could fail a certain charge because the dice roll bad.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557732.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557732.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Vulcan wrote:


    You didn't play 8th edition, did you.

    You're right. It introduced random charge ranges and I had no desire to play such game so 7th is the last one I've had experience with.

    Kinda curious.

    Do you think every charge ever done in medieval history was done at exactly the same range every time, regardless of minor variations in terrain?




    Ah, the old "but in real life!" fallacy, one would think it's been properly put to sleep by now.

    Do you think ever regular march was done at exactly the same range every time? Always in a direction exactly like the one planned? Was every shooting attack at exactly the same range regardless of minor variations in the wind?



    You can find a real life excuse to make everything in such a game random. Life is pretty random after all. But for some reason designers don't. Why? Because just sitting there watching the dice being rolled and consulting random tables is a miserable experience that hardly deserves the name "game". Thus certain things are abstracted to offer an interesting intellectual challenge instead of randomapalooza that hardly shows who is the better player and makes better moves.

    Do you complain about units in HoMM 3 always going a set number of spaces? What about armies in Imperial 2030 or A Game of Thrones? What about prices of properties in Monopoly? Why doesn't Great Western Trail properly represent the mechanisms of supply and demand if Power Grid or Brass do it?

    Exactly as Overread mentions this abstraction can be applied to a different level in different titles. Randomness serves many important purposes in design - for example it evens the playing field between players of varying skill or experience or muddies the perception of imbalance and hides the differences between sloppily playtested options. Randomness is certainly to stay, but to varying degrees in different titles directed at different audiences (for example families who play with kids need heavy randomness not to make the kids lose every time).

    Not happy with Brass or Arkwright being decided solely by players' decisions? You can play Monopoly. A Game of Thrones or Imperial too deterministic and player-driven for your taste? You can play Risk.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557819.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557819.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Vulcan wrote:
    Do you think every charge ever done in medieval history was done at exactly the same range every time, regardless of minor variations in terrain?
    and do you think full plate armour was ever worn in combination with a shield in medieval history?
    or that cavalry came in units of 5 charging an infantry unit of 20 and fought until everyone was dead in all of medieval history?

    given that the bloodiest battles in that time frame had something like ~30% casualties, the whole "remove single models" is even more stupid than fixed charge ranges, the same as a unit of 20 should be removed from the game as soon as they have 6-7 casualties

    there are no random rolls for muddy ground, rain/snow or "too hot to move" in the game, so do you really think it was always the same weather during medieval history?

    real life example to proof why one game mechanic is more realistic than another does not work, simply because this is a game and not a simulation it starts on the basic frame of the game not being realistic]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557846.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557846.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors

    Fixed ranges no premeasure leads to fixed result you can predict ahead of time. No need to even play.

    No premeasure leads to same with half decent players who know how to premeasue without tape so only noobs gets crushed hard. No surprise no premeasure rule favoured by bad players who enjoy filling own ego by noob smashing ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557909.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557909.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors 40k board, how fixed ranges mean that there is no need to even play as the outcome can be predicted ahead of time

    I guess there won't be much support for Bolters having 4D6 range instead of fixed 24]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557914.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557914.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557924.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557924.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    One extreme example has all charges making it, regardless of distance. But the effectiveness of the troops diminish the longer the charge has to go.

    You can declare a charge right away from across the entire table, and your poor exhausted troops will hit the enemy like a puff of cotton candy and melt away.

    Another variation has a limit to range that can be pre-measured, and then dice are rolled to see at what distance the troops start to diminish. Similar to the first version but the charge distance is limited and the troops being spent is random.

    3rd edition Warhammer had a series of conditions that would result in a loss of charge bonus. Other situations resulted in a loss of charge bonus and the charging unit being unformed- which could result in it auto breaking if it lost combat.

    2 rules from 3rd edition that would make a new version interesting are the unformed rules, and no unit taking a break test until it had lost 25% of its starting strength. I really think the latter solves a lot of problems that later versions suffered from.


    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557926.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557926.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors Back to the topic now please. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557941.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11557941.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Does this mean the new food knights will be in scale with older models instead of being the giant humans in AOS? That alone is exciting news for me ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558009.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558009.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558037.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558037.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors huge     in comparison.

    EDIT: big image of Paladin (plus the helmet-less version) and the new Tomb King side-by side
    Spoiler:


    ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558042.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558042.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     KidCthulhu wrote:

    Does this mean the new food knights will be in scale with older models instead of being the giant humans in AOS? That alone is exciting news for me

    Kinda sorta seems that way. And if so, it puts me off any chance of buying anything, personally. I really like the proportions and size of the modern stuff, and was really hoping they would make anything new in that style.

    Just bringing back old models and making new ones to fit those proportions makes this a no go for me.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558111.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558111.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558120.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558120.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558123.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558123.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    I dunno, how do you justify the significant height difference with the Tomb King? Thats like a 1ft difference in stature between them - the tomb kings lower jaw is sitting at the Paladins eye level.


    Tomb Kings got embiggened in the 8th ed model wave. New The Old World models would use that as a standard rather than going back to the smaller models from 6th ed, some of which got discontinued and replaced by those 8th ed updates.

    Bretonnians didn't have that happen to them for lack of any new models in 7th and 8th ed.

    If the new models are sculpted to match existing miniature lines, that's how it's bound to go. Which indeed has ample potential to suck for people who are happy with GW's modern proportions. It's not exactly ideal for anybody else either. If The Old World is a success that GW intends to keep supporting, you end up with non-future proofed models much the same as Horus Heresy between 1st ed and 2nd ed. GW is redoing Mk.III Marines in fall apparently because of the stunted old ones no longer fitting GW's new Marines. You're still expected to get your Mk.IV fix in old and ugly. You still have the same for characters and special units. The Old World might end up all over the place in terms of model size if at some point the designers are sick of that nonsense and want modern proportions but GW is unwilling to invest enough money in full range refreshes for a side game that isn't even based on their big earner.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558128.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558128.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Rihgu wrote:
    Nehekarans were enormous people, if I remember the lore correctly.


    I remember that lore. At the time I was wondering if the BL authors had some weird axe to grind, and only later found out the minis were just out of scale.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558135.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558135.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558138.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558138.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
     Rihgu wrote:
    Nehekarans were enormous people, if I remember the lore correctly.


    I remember that lore. At the time I was wondering if the BL authors had some weird axe to grind, and only later found out the minis were just out of scale.


    Wasn't that incorporated into the lore because of the basic Skeleton minis?
    They were massive but created around what? 6th ed or earlier?

    The TK upgrades were based on them, & they were not updated before the End Times.
    New Tomb Kings units/models used the Skeletons as their scale reference.

    When Vampire Counts got their own Skeletons that had clothes/armor, they were scaled down to look like they could fit inside a living body, as well as the magic wind from behind look.

    So we got the in-universe explanation that the people of Khemri were giants.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558143.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558143.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     skrulnik wrote:
     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
     Rihgu wrote:
    Nehekarans were enormous people, if I remember the lore correctly.


    I remember that lore. At the time I was wondering if the BL authors had some weird axe to grind, and only later found out the minis were just out of scale.


    Wasn't that incorporated into the lore because of the basic Skeleton minis?
    They were massive but created around what? 6th ed or earlier?

    The TK upgrades were based on them, & they were not updated before the End Times.
    New Tomb Kings units/models used the Skeletons as their scale reference.

    When Vampire Counts got their own Skeletons that had clothes/armor, they were scaled down to look like they could fit inside a living body, as well as the magic wind from behind look.

    So we got the in-universe explanation that the people of Khemri were giants.


    It's also a semi-common trope with Ancient Aliens / Biblical Literalist peoples and related pseudoscientific fields, basically they take e.g. biblical descriptions literal in that people running around at that time were 9 foot tall and lived for 800 years or whatever I always took it as at least partially being a tongue-in-cheek allusion towards that as well.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558154.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558154.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558181.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558181.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558197.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558197.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     KidCthulhu wrote:

    Does this mean the new food knights will be in scale with older models instead of being the giant humans in AOS?


    They will be in scale with bretonnian last plastic kits for sure, since they already stated that those are coming back.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558247.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558247.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558365.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558365.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558673.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558673.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Darnok wrote:
    Did I dream that there was a WHC statement of "an article for TOW on June"? Did I miss it? I am confused...


    Not a dream.

    From the May 23 dev diary, very last line of the article:

    Thanks very much guys – that’s a ton of useful information. Warhammer: The Old World is marching closer to release, and there’ll be another development diary coming at some time in June.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558685.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558685.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     nels1031 wrote:
     Darnok wrote:
    Did I dream that there was a WHC statement of "an article for TOW on June"? Did I miss it? I am confused...


    Not a dream.

    From the May 23 dev diary, very last line of the article:

    Thanks very much guys – that’s a ton of useful information. Warhammer: The Old World is marching closer to release, and there’ll be another development diary coming at some time in June.


    At least we'll get one whole model shown tomorrow...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558687.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558687.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors

    Makes me wonder if the author simply mixed up June and July and June was meant to be out to begin with because of how big a deal 10th ed 40k marketing was going to be this month.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558716.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558716.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558717.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558717.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Geifer wrote:
    Yes, but tomorrow isn't June anymore. Therefore we got shortchanged. Therefore we now have to burn Nottingham to the ground. It's the only way this can go.

    Makes me wonder if the author simply mixed up June and July and June was meant to be out to begin with because of how big a deal 10th ed 40k marketing was going to be this month.


    Honestly, their 'diaries' are exercises in non-commital vagueness anyway, if you can clean one or two clear sentences out of one you had a good month... they're just too thin on actual information for me to get excited over missing one ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558720.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558720.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors lol. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558740.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558740.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     nathan2004 wrote:
    Watch them drop a bomb on us tomorrow and announce an idea on when this is projected to launch. I know it’s extremely unlikely but one can hope lol.


    Pulls a Nintendo.

    "The Pre-order period for Warhammer: the Old World begins, after this presentation"]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558755.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558755.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     ProfSrlojohn wrote:
     nathan2004 wrote:
    Watch them drop a bomb on us tomorrow and announce an idea on when this is projected to launch. I know it’s extremely unlikely but one can hope lol.


    Pulls a Nintendo.

    "The Pre-order period for Warhammer: the Old World begins, after this presentation"


    Maybe it will be the same gakshow as 10th ed ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558756.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11558756.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Alright you know what to do- Kopium Krew explain how this isn't a dumpster fire with no plan! Go!]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559196.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559196.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    caladancid wrote:
    That was definitely a reveal.

    Alright you know what to do- Kopium Krew explain how this isn't a dumpster fire with no plan! Go!


    There's nothing about this new miniature specifically that supports the idea any more or less than previous things do. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559219.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559219.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    caladancid wrote:
    That was definitely a reveal.

    Alright you know what to do- Kopium Krew explain how this isn't a dumpster fire with no plan! Go!


    It feels like you'd do TOW a favour by just turning off the machines at this point. I'm not sure if they even intend to release this game like, ever, they'll just 'preview' it at a rate of one model per quarter until eternity, or until the last die-hard fans have worked through the phases of grief and accepted that literally nothing is still better than this.

    Their language in the presentation (... 'we have much more to show once we approach that particular release'... and such) has made it clear that it's still far, far off, and at this point entire game systems have been designed and released while TOW still languishes.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559220.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559220.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559227.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559227.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559233.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559233.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/01/warhammer-preview-a-new-bretonnian-miniature-flies-the-colours-of-the-duke/

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559234.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559234.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
    Why does it look like he's missing half his torso?


    He's wearing bot a normal belt and some sort of band around his upper chest, maybe you mistake the band (white-gold) for the belt (brown)?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559238.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559238.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559249.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559249.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I mean yeah, it's a Brettonian, nothing exciting to be seen here.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559253.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559253.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors FC maybe?) but I'm not interested in resin minis at GW's price range if Necromuna is an indicator to go by.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559256.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559256.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Tsagualsa wrote:
     Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
    Why does it look like he's missing half his torso?


    He's wearing bot a normal belt and some sort of band around his upper chest, maybe you mistake the band (white-gold) for the belt (brown)?


    No, i can see where his belt is. It looks like his head has collapsed into his chest.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559261.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559261.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Tsagualsa wrote:
     Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
    Why does it look like he's missing half his torso?


    He's wearing bot a normal belt and some sort of band around his upper chest, maybe you mistake the band (white-gold) for the belt (brown)?


    Nah, judging by the knee position, his pelvis sits just below his stomach.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559276.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559276.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors tbh. I'd argue that the Pestilence warband is a bigger reveal for ToW.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559290.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559290.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Scrub wrote:
    Well, again a model that's really nice and I love the colour scheme (this knight is a a fan of Rennes FC maybe?) but I'm not interested in resin minis at GW's price range if Necromunda is an indicator to go by.


    100%. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559404.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559404.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Hey its an exciting release of a renowned setting, the one where we have Vampire pirates, "Chinese" Dragons, Bear riding Ice Witches - none of which have ever had offical models (but we have been working hard on in Total War to create the lore, models etc ) ....and here to generate interest in old and new players is:

    A quite nicely painted resin Knight that will likely be £40+

    Lets kill the game before it even comes out...sheesh]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559411.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559411.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
    Tsagualsa wrote:
     Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
    Why does it look like he's missing half his torso?


    He's wearing bot a normal belt and some sort of band around his upper chest, maybe you mistake the band (white-gold) for the belt (brown)?


    No, i can see where his belt is. It looks like his head has collapsed into his chest.


    He has Oldhammer proportions.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559415.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559415.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559417.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559417.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I like how the most fantastical element is his phoenix on the helmet.

    Not crazy about his red and black scheme, but they straight up said it is to make regular painters believe they can manage to paint bretonnia units.

    I like it. 4/4 stars from me, although note that I am no badass modelist, more of a casual player.

    That said. There will be no game released this fall. I say 2025 earliest. Which is mysterious to me. Why cant they just blood release it.




    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Lord Damocles wrote:
    How does the resin standard bearer look worse than the metal one from decades ago?


    Tell me why you think so, I am genuinly curious. (I have the model I think you are talking about), and I thought it was stiff, clunky, chunky, boxy, and the metal flag would never stay with the undersized pole.

    That said, I honestly believe GW designers noticed the reaction to the bear riding bear guard of the bear Tzarina, and the ice-bow archers concept art, and is releasing the more mundane model photos now. Brets are even painted in a fairly boring scheme. I think there might be a connection between fan reaction and GW marketing choice for once, especially since they for once had time to react as well.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559421.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559421.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Shakalooloo wrote:
     Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
    Tsagualsa wrote:
     Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
    Why does it look like he's missing half his torso?


    He's wearing bot a normal belt and some sort of band around his upper chest, maybe you mistake the band (white-gold) for the belt (brown)?


    No, i can see where his belt is. It looks like his head has collapsed into his chest.


    He has Oldhammer proportions.


    He's not even five heads tall, discounting the crown and the helmet decorations completely. Normal-ish to 'heroic' proportions would be around 7 heads.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559424.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559424.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Shakalooloo wrote:
     Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
    Tsagualsa wrote:
     Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
    Why does it look like he's missing half his torso?


    He's wearing bot a normal belt and some sort of band around his upper chest, maybe you mistake the band (white-gold) for the belt (brown)?


    No, i can see where his belt is. It looks like his head has collapsed into his chest.


    He has Oldhammer proportions.


    Which are horrible and should have been updated.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559425.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559425.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Tsagualsa wrote:
    He's not even five heads tall, discounting the crown and the helmet decorations completely. Normal-ish to 'heroic' proportions would be around 7 heads.


    I presume his chin to be at the cross-point of the lower gold design, not at the very base of the helm.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559428.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559428.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559429.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559429.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559430.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559430.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Shakalooloo wrote:
    Tsagualsa wrote:
    He's not even five heads tall, discounting the crown and the helmet decorations completely. Normal-ish to 'heroic' proportions would be around 7 heads.


    I presume his chin to be at the cross-point of the lower gold design, not at the very base of the helm.


    You sure? You know what these Bretonnian dynasties are up to, right?

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559432.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559432.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    first of all, we got new base sizes because this will make it easier to handle Rank & File Formations with the models as the bases became too small for their design and it was hard to rank them up
    and the 3rd new model shown which was explicit designed for TOW R&F gets a horse that fills up the new base size instead if being the same size as the old horses
    but at least the horse gets a tactical rock, so we know at least that this was using a basic design from the database instead of making one from scratch

    and this leads to the other problem, model scale and horses as this new heroe does not really fit next to the older plastic ones and this is also the reason why the hero itself looks off as his proportions do not fit the horse the sits on at all

    PS:
    horse size is a tricky one as during medieval times horses were rather short (1,40-1,60 meter) making the older models much better in scale with infantry than the newer ones
    with early modern times new breeds came up and horses became taller, which also gave a difference in cavalry as the heavy (shock) cavalry used the taller horses and the light cavalry the smaller ones
    Empire, which is more or less a copy of the military from early modern times, would have the larger horses for heavy cavalry, smaller ones for light cavalry, yet it is the other way around with the models as the heavy cavalry got the smaller horses, and Bretonnia should have horses of similar size or smaller than the light cavalry of the Empire and not larger ones]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559433.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559433.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    https://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Bretonnian_Warhorse

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559452.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559452.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Shakalooloo wrote:
    He has Oldhammer proportions.


    Maybe, but the horse sure doesn't. Right now, if that guy somehow managed to get off his horse without breaking his neck, he would have the stirrup at eye level.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559455.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559455.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559457.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559457.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559460.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559460.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559473.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559473.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Shakalooloo wrote:
    Tsagualsa wrote:
    He's not even five heads tall, discounting the crown and the helmet decorations completely. Normal-ish to 'heroic' proportions would be around 7 heads.


    I presume his chin to be at the cross-point of the lower gold design, not at the very base of the helm.


    They don't call him Chinny McBigHead for nothing! I don't see anything particularly off about the proportions for a GW mini, or more accurately, I don't see anyone with clear proof the proportions are off from a single picture that would fly anywhere but on dakkadakka . He definitely has a more historical mini pose though, hunched forward. I'll really have to wait and see if there is a worthwhile audience of people waiting for these boutique Old World minis for an army scale game. I sure wouldn't assume there was.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559474.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559474.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    so it's probably a combination of an unflattering angle, extra large helm and (oldhammer proportions ?) that's making him look a bit odd]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559477.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559477.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
    Since these will all be digital now any weird proportions will likely be shared by all the Bretonians (unless this one is actually a hunchback or similar)

    so it's probably a combination of an unflattering angle, extra large helm and (oldhammer proportions ?) that's making him look a bit odd


    The video where they do a slight pan around the model makes it look a bit like he was hunched towards the side with the flail, like he was putting effort into raising the standard extra-high and slouching down an bit on the other side as a consequence. If that's the case the angle might be mostly to blame.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559480.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559480.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors mm of torso and maybe another mm of neck. And you can't even blame oldhammer scaling on that, when Green Knight exists.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559513.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559513.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559517.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559517.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
    Since these will all be digital now any weird proportions will likely be shared by all the Bretonians (unless this one is actually a hunchback or similar)

    so it's probably a combination of an unflattering angle, extra large helm and (oldhammer proportions ?) that's making him look a bit odd


    Having Bretonnia have a whole load of hunchback knights would be hilarious]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559519.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559519.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559521.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559521.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559525.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559525.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Tyel wrote:
    I think it would be a great model if it was released in 2004. It just isn't doing very much for me today.

    this is the one from 6th edition (with a different head, but the best picture from the side I found) https://www.coolminiornot.com/108718

    not even in 2004 this would have been a good model als GW made better ones back than]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559537.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559537.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors BSB and don't feel the need to rush out to get that as a replacement]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559585.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559585.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    Tyel wrote:
    I think it would be a great model if it was released in 2004. It just isn't doing very much for me today.

    this is the one from 6th edition (with a different head, but the best picture from the side I found) https://www.coolminiornot.com/108718

    not even in 2004 this would have been a good model als GW made better ones back than


    Here it is without the changes or the excellent paintjob:



    This new miniature is worse just how? ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559589.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559589.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    there are also less details, like the banner and icons are just painted and not sculpted

    the figure on the helm looks better, and the casting quality of the resin model is better over the metal one]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559591.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559591.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I specifically like the old one for its banner being a different orientation to the unit banners]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559593.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559593.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559598.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559598.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    there are also less details, like the banner and icons are just painted and not sculpted

    Empty fields are better than sculpted banners. That's what transfers are for and it allows for greater hobby freedom with regards to heraldry and the such.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559601.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559601.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Gert wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    there are also less details, like the banner and icons are just painted and not sculpted

    Empty fields are better than sculpted banners. That's what transfers are for and it allows for greater hobby freedom with regards to heraldry and the such.


    pretty much nail on head, sculpted stuff is nice as an option, but there should always be a plain version included]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559602.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559602.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors BSB definitely looks hunched over to me. The old BSB is sitting up tall in the saddle.

    I'll grant the details issue, but one isn't going to notice the details so readily from across the table. One will be able to notice the difference between the BSB who is riding tall and proud, and the other lazily slouching down...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559623.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559623.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors Mantic can simply point out that you can play Kings of War right now to market their game.
    They did it in response to the original square base announcement too and it's hard to say it's too soon to do it again.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559625.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559625.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Gert wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    there are also less details, like the banner and icons are just painted and not sculpted

    Empty fields are better than sculpted banners. That's what transfers are for and it allows for greater hobby freedom with regards to heraldry and the such.
    I guess this is why people hunt down sculpted shoulder pads for Marines or sculpted banners, because everyone likes to paint free hands or things that decals are easy to apply (if available as the BS won't come with its own decal sheet)]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559718.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559718.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
     Gert wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    there are also less details, like the banner and icons are just painted and not sculpted

    Empty fields are better than sculpted banners. That's what transfers are for and it allows for greater hobby freedom with regards to heraldry and the such.
    I guess this is why people hunt down sculpted shoulder pads for Marines or sculpted banners, because everyone likes to paint free hands or things that decals are easy to apply (if available as the BS won't come with its own decal sheet)


    Oh right, because shoulder pads on individual marines armour that someone will have an entire armies worth of are totally comparable to the flag of a standard bearer]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559736.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559736.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    so arguing better having free space for non existing decals is a little off
    and it is way easier to replace the sculpted banner with a clear one if you want to add free hands, than to add sculpted banner (as those who are good enough to make that free hand won't struggle to add a clean one, while those who are not good enough in painting won't be able to sculpt it either)

    but I guess this is because it is a GW model and therefore must be the best model out there
    as if anyone here would have considered this a good sculpt if any other company would have released it ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559744.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559744.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors Obviously remains to be seen if GW went for the option.

    As for the sculpt itself, I honestly and sincerely believe that the limited edition BSB from the 2004 army set is a better model.

    Spoiler:
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559754.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559754.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:

    but I guess this is because it is a GW model and therefore must be the best model out there
    as if anyone here would have considered this a good sculpt if any other company would have released it


    You're being absurdly hyperbolic now. The sculpt is fine. There's nothing egregiously bad about it that makes it as terrible as you're making out. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559755.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559755.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Mozzamanx wrote:

    Obviously remains to be seen if GW went for the option.


    TBH, if there were options, they would have showed it like the previous preview on the paladin on foot.

    I wouldn't count too much of having another version of a sculpted banner in the box of this miniature.

    Otherwise, the sculpt is indeed fine. Less details is good from time to time. Like all sculpts, it's just a matter of personnal taste. Kodos like Mantic Games miniatures, so he's already fine with low detail or out of proportions miniatures. Real question is the price this one will be sold and if it will be worth it. So far, we don't know, so no point to get outraged for now.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559759.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559759.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
    You're being absurdly hyperbolic now. The sculpt is fine. There's nothing egregiously bad about it that makes it as terrible as you're making out.
    the sculpt is ok, I just said GW made better ones in 2004 and if you think the old sculpts are worse than this, you won't have much fun with TOW as GW is re-releasing the old ones along this]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559765.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559765.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors HH Iron Warriors have everything from 2nd Ed Rhinos to 2022 plastic Mk6s. You can appreciate the new sculpts while also liking the classic stuff.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559781.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559781.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
    You're being absurdly hyperbolic now. The sculpt is fine. There's nothing egregiously bad about it that makes it as terrible as you're making out.
    the sculpt is ok, I just said GW made better ones in 2004 and if you think the old sculpts are worse than this, you won't have much fun with TOW as GW is re-releasing the old ones along this


    No, you didn't "just" say that. You said it's a bad sculpt that people only say they like due to it having the GW name on it, so it they just like it because brand loyalty. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559783.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559783.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mentlegen324 wrote:

    No, you didn't "just" say that. You said it's a bad sculpt that people only say they like due to it having the GW name on it, so it they just like it because brand loyalty.

    well:
     kodos wrote:
    not even in 2004 this would have been a good model als GW made better ones back than


    than there was the response that this one is superior to the old ones for "reasons" and no I cannot follow this as neither does the new one is modeled to match the old sculpt as some will argue, nor das it fit the classic Warhammer design

    and "being off and clumsy" was not the classic design of 6th/7th]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559789.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559789.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:

    No, you didn't "just" say that. You said it's a bad sculpt that people only say they like due to it having the GW name on it, so it they just like it because brand loyalty.

    well:
     kodos wrote:
    not even in 2004 this would have been a good model als GW made better ones back than


    than there was the response that this one is superior to the old ones for "reasons" and no I cannot follow this as neither does the new one is modeled to match the old sculpt as some will argue, nor das it fit the classic Warhammer design

    and "being off and clumsy" was not the classic design of 6th/7th


    And you then went on to say that it's a bad sculpt that people only say they like because brand loyalty:

     kodos wrote:

    but I guess this is because it is a GW model and therefore must be the best model out there
    as if anyone here would have considered this a good sculpt if any other company would have released it


    The sculpt is fine. There is nothing as bad about it as you're making out, it's fine to prefer the older version but acting like it's an outright terrible sculpt that people only say is alright because its a GW mini is absurd. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559795.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559795.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559802.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559802.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Criticizing that is being blind to that reality, IMHO.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559809.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559809.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors IMO and I'll probably stick with the old model, but I don't understand a lot of peoples anger. Not everything needs to be reacted to only with extreme pleasure or vitriol. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559867.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559867.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sasorijap wrote:
    If the whole Old World situation doesn't scream nostalgia cash grab i don't know what is.


    Have you seen the HH range!!! GW has been monetising nostalgia for while, and it’s great! ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559899.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559899.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Andykp wrote:
    Sasorijap wrote:
    If the whole Old World situation doesn't scream nostalgia cash grab i don't know what is.


    Have you seen the HH range!!! GW has been monetising nostalgia for while, and it’s great!


    If you ask the right forum pundits, it's a dead game that gets deader whit every single one of its frequent, high profile releases ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559901.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11559901.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    He doesn't really need much to be great, though I get that people shouldn't be expected to fix their models beyond cleaning casting lines and filling gaps.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560009.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560009.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
    caladancid wrote:
    That was definitely a reveal.

    Alright you know what to do- Kopium Krew explain how this isn't a dumpster fire with no plan! Go!


    There's nothing about this new miniature specifically that supports the idea any more or less than previous things do.


    This is a good first try, but you can do better.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560011.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560011.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    So far the only news to be excited about is the re-release of some of the old plastic kits, which means I might buy a few new units for my 8th edition armies and keep playing that once in a blue moon. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560018.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560018.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    caladancid wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
    caladancid wrote:
    That was definitely a reveal.

    Alright you know what to do- Kopium Krew explain how this isn't a dumpster fire with no plan! Go!


    There's nothing about this new miniature specifically that supports the idea any more or less than previous things do.


    This is a good first try, but you can do better.


    Go on then, explain how this miniature supports that idea any more than the previous stuff did.

    I don't think this project is going to go too well myself, but this new miniature doesn't add anything to that either way. We already know there isn't going to be a huge amount of new things. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560074.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560074.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     DarkBlack wrote:
    This has dragged so badly that Mantic can simply point out that you can play Kings of War right now to market their game.
    They did it in response to the original square base announcement too and it's hard to say it's too soon to do it again.


    And it's still the same game it was when I tried it after End Times blew up the world, and I didn't like it then when it was effectively free, and I'm certainly not paying for a game I'm not going to like now.

    If it's to your taste, more power to you. It's not to mine, and we'll leave it at that.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560104.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560104.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    "If they release 20 year old style minis I'll be in heaven! That's all they have to do!"

    "This looks like it's from 2004 and it's awful, reeeeeee!"]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560110.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560110.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Vulcan wrote:
     DarkBlack wrote:
    This has dragged so badly that Mantic can simply point out that you can play Kings of War right now to market their game.
    They did it in response to the original square base announcement too and it's hard to say it's too soon to do it again.


    And it's still the same game it was when I tried it after End Times blew up the world, and I didn't like it then when it was effectively free, and I'm certainly not paying for a game I'm not going to like now.

    If it's to your taste, more power to you. It's not to mine, and we'll leave it at that.


    Can I ask what you do play currently?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560111.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560111.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors

    The model is great but its at an awkward pose and angle together make it look meh, but once we have it in our hands I'm sure it'll look fantastic.

    Dynamic action pose from horse back will always have some funky angles to make it look weird]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560203.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560203.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW already has issues supplying 40k and AoS, nvm HH which had a huge push and then was left to languish.
    Now we get epic, a whole other supply line and ToW? And whilest i rekon development time for ToW to be comparativly short since GW can recycle just the old moulds, that is still a question of running the machines and stockpiling product for sale.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560205.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560205.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    limited edition box set with Khemri and Bretonnia, each with 2 new resin heroes and 2 old plastic units and 1 new one and a rulebook
    while the other faction coming as made to order one at a time with the army book release over the next years is a possibility]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560280.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560280.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560286.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560286.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors BSB. The standard is big, but very plain, the rider is slouched his weapon not doing anything. It doesn't have the oomph of a BSB, it looks more like a regular unit standard, especially when you compare it to the older BSB on the previous page.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560294.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560294.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560298.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560298.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     His Master's Voice wrote:
    Damn, you'd think this guy was the next Pumbagore.

    He doesn't really need much to be great, though I get that people shouldn't be expected to fix their models beyond cleaning casting lines and filling gaps.

    Spoiler:


    Took me a moment to realise that this was an edit. Really subtle but makes an enormous difference to the overall finish.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560300.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560300.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    leopard wrote:I find it hard to imagine there will be any resin in the boxed set, as add-ons yes but not in the box

    we don't know if it will be a boxed set, better said we already know that it won't be a regular boxed set so it might be just a bundle with the exclusive resin models as add-on

    but what other reason is there to show us single models if they are not part of the launch bundle]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560311.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560311.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Mozzamanx wrote:


    Took me a moment to realise that this was an edit. Really subtle but makes an enormous difference to the overall finish.


    If this is so subtle, maybe it wasn't that big of a deal in the first place.

    In reality, when you're in game at Battle's scale, you hardly see the difference. That's the point.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560313.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560313.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    but now the models does not look like the old design any more and it is not improved at all as it was already a great model before /s

    leopard wrote:I find it hard to imagine there will be any resin in the boxed set, as add-ons yes but not in the box

    we don't know if it will be a boxed set, better said we already know that it won't be a regular boxed set so it might be just a bundle with the exclusive resin models as add-on

    but what other reason is there to show us single models if they are not part of the launch bundle


    stuff that will be released alongside it?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560314.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560314.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sarouan wrote:
    Mozzamanx wrote:


    Took me a moment to realise that this was an edit. Really subtle but makes an enormous difference to the overall finish.


    If this is so subtle, maybe it wasn't that big of a deal in the first place.

    In reality, when you're in game at Battle's scale, you hardly see the difference. That's the point.


    Maybe not a massive deal, but of the 2 images below, I feel that one is better than the other. None of the actual details have changed, its purely down to proportions and alignment.
    It probably just comes across as whinging but I feel like we are yet again seeing a model where minor attention to fundamentals ends up with something much better. It's frustrating that what I hoped to be a major project, has so little to show for it and what has been done, can be improved upon so easily.

    Spoiler:

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560339.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560339.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Mozzamanx wrote:


    Maybe not a massive deal, but of the 2 images below, I feel that one is better than the other. None of the actual details have changed, its purely down to proportions and alignment.


    Yeah, it's just a feeling. Honestly, when I look the two pictures, I just see one that is slightly bigger than the other. And I don't feel one is better.

    Maybe because in reality, we all have all kinds of sizes for humans and animals of the same species. As for the proportions, again, at the size of a game, you won't be nitpicking about this. It's likely you won't even notice it at all.

    We have already that kind of debate plenty on previous previews based on just pictures, and when the miniature gets out...it's not that big of a deal made on the internet. Feels it's the same here.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560359.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560359.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     RustyNumber wrote:
    Gotta love the duality of man -

    "If they release 20 year old style minis I'll be in heaven! That's all they have to do!"

    "This looks like it's from 2004 and it's awful, reeeeeee!"


    For Bretonnians, they had to go back 25 years to reach the awesome Perry models.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560376.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560376.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560381.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560381.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kestral wrote:
    Missed opportunity to finally release a Joan of Arc miniature! That is pretty much the last piece I need to be done with Bretonnians and lay them in whatever system down to the end of my life.


    ...you know that already existed right? Repanse de Lyonesse is a thing.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    AllSeeingSkink wrote:
     RustyNumber wrote:
    Gotta love the duality of man -

    "If they release 20 year old style minis I'll be in heaven! That's all they have to do!"

    "This looks like it's from 2004 and it's awful, reeeeeee!"


    For Bretonnians, they had to go back 25 years to reach the awesome Perry models.


    I concur. Wish they'd gone that bit further back.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560422.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560422.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sarouan wrote:
    Mozzamanx wrote:


    Took me a moment to realise that this was an edit. Really subtle but makes an enormous difference to the overall finish.


    If this is so subtle, maybe it wasn't that big of a deal in the first place.

    In reality, when you're in game at Battle's scale, you hardly see the difference. That's the point.


    This whole argument, that the poor sculpt doesn’t matter because you won’t see how bad it is from across the table, is a really good argument…for why you should avoid spending GW money and just use Fireforge or Gripping Beast knights for a fraction of the cost. By your logic, From across the table, you can’t even complain about Mantic minis!]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560434.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560434.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     BobtheInquisitor wrote:


    This whole argument, that the poor sculpt doesn’t matter


    It's simply not a poor sculpt. The miniature is fine. People are complaining about some "weird proportions" (I don't really see that, honestly) or lack of details. I don't really see people in good faith here saying it's a bad sculpt.

    I was answering specifically about the two pictures of one being "slightly bigger", that's something you'll indeed not see the difference in game.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560606.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560606.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    For $40 or more, the miniature should be better than “from across the table it’s fine.”]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560618.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560618.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     RustyNumber wrote:
    Gotta love the duality of man -

    "If they release 20 year old style minis I'll be in heaven! That's all they have to do!"

    "This looks like it's from 2004 and it's awful, reeeeeee!"


    Thats seemingly going to sum up this whole release.
    Happy for friends in camp 1, I'd like to join them but not feeling it.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560661.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560661.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Dawnbringer wrote:
     Vulcan wrote:
     DarkBlack wrote:
    This has dragged so badly that Mantic can simply point out that you can play Kings of War right now to market their game.
    They did it in response to the original square base announcement too and it's hard to say it's too soon to do it again.


    And it's still the same game it was when I tried it after End Times blew up the world, and I didn't like it then when it was effectively free, and I'm certainly not paying for a game I'm not going to like now.

    If it's to your taste, more power to you. It's not to mine, and we'll leave it at that.


    Can I ask what you do play currently?


    Spend the last few years in the boonies playing a whole lot of nothing. Trying to find a group that still plays 8th now that I'm back in civilization.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560673.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560673.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Vulcan wrote:
     Dawnbringer wrote:
     Vulcan wrote:
     DarkBlack wrote:
    This has dragged so badly that Mantic can simply point out that you can play Kings of War right now to market their game.
    They did it in response to the original square base announcement too and it's hard to say it's too soon to do it again.


    And it's still the same game it was when I tried it after End Times blew up the world, and I didn't like it then when it was effectively free, and I'm certainly not paying for a game I'm not going to like now.

    If it's to your taste, more power to you. It's not to mine, and we'll leave it at that.


    Can I ask what you do play currently?


    Spend the last few years in the boonies playing a whole lot of nothing. Trying to find a group that still plays 8th now that I'm back in civilization.


    Checked with Eighth Edition For Life yet?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560677.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560677.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560679.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560679.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     RaptorusRex wrote:
    It's an alright model, but players expect more by this point.


    That was basically my thought, especially given that it's FW resin and is therefore going to cost your left arm and first born to get.

    But I was never a big fan of the 6th edition Bretonnian range anyway, they always had wonky proportions, chunky details and too much detail at the expense of not having a nice "flow" to the models... so perhaps it's just a personal bias.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560680.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560680.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors FW models to get a second life. Would love to get my hands on the dwarf command set

    Or a revamped, much beloved chaos war mammoth...?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560683.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560683.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     BobtheInquisitor wrote:

    For $40 or more, the miniature should be better than “from across the table it’s fine.”


    Your argument will be valid if it's indeed sold that price when it's released. So far, we only have the miniature. They didn't say anything about the price.

    As for the feelings, it's always been subjective for liking or not a miniature's sculpt.


     RaptorusRex wrote:
    It's an alright model, but players expect more by this point.


    And honestly, I believe that's the real issue. People wanted to see more than just a BSB for a TOW preview. So of course, they're disappointed. What else do we have left but nitpicking about some perceived proportions on a picture ?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560764.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560764.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
    Just because you can’t perceive the difference between good proportions and bad proportions doesn’t mean the difference doesn’t exist. I can’t tell the difference between Coke and Pepsi, but I know better than to tell soda aficionados who paid for Coke to shut up and enjoy their Pepsi.

    For $40 or more, the miniature should be better than “from across the table it’s fine.”


    What "Bad Proportion" are you on about? Other than the neck, which seems to be down to the armour and the photo angle, there's nothing that stands out as obviously wrong.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560848.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560848.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    specially as the old Warhammer/Bretonnia models had more realistic proportions ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560850.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560850.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sarouan wrote:
     BobtheInquisitor wrote:

    For $40 or more, the miniature should be better than “from across the table it’s fine.”


    Your argument will be valid if it's indeed sold that price when it's released. So far, we only have the miniature. They didn't say anything about the price.


    Given it's resin and FW, it'll likely be much more than $40. Even basic Space Marine heroes on foot from FW are more than $40, unmounted human sized BB characters are $36, so I'll be surprised if it's less than $50 for a mounted knight.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560852.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560852.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors IMO but its just meh

    But there is soooo much they could be telling us without "spoiling" the game - tell us about the period - how Bretonnia is different to 2500s Bretonnia (if it is), what the provinces are like, name some names...some battles, some heros and villians. - anything rather than what they are doing - hell give us some fiction like they are doing for Dawnbringer Crusade..]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560855.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560855.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    the torso is too short, which is what we are all talking about as the upper torso does not fit and that is why the model looks off

    specially as the old Warhammer/Bretonnia models had more realistic proportions


    I don’t think it is too short, I think what they have done is go with a more “realistic” scaled helmet, which is bigger than the normal look and add the neck protector thing and the torso looks very top heavy, but if you look at the limbs the torso size is fine. For me it fits fine with the rest of the range. Shame it’s resin but Horus heresy has survived well being a forgeworld based game and this is pitched in the same way as that “historical” warhammer game. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560866.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560866.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors The only things that will stop me buying it when it's released will be;
    a) the price
    b) the thought of a tall pointy bannered resin model ready to be snagged in the battlefield and snapped
    c) I like my models facing forwards
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560895.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11560895.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors

    ANY stat line.


    That would do more to assuage or validate concerns than any number of models posted. I'll refrain from any emotional input until I see one. Until then I'll keep playing 6th.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11561100.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11561100.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    the torso is too short, which is what we are all talking about as the upper torso does not fit and that is why the model looks off

    specially as the old Warhammer/Bretonnia models had more realistic proportions


    No, it isn't. The model has the same amount / proportions as the classic miniatures:


    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11561104.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11561104.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    the torso is too short, which is what we are all talking about as the upper torso does not fit and that is why the model looks off

    specially as the old Warhammer/Bretonnia models had more realistic proportions


    No, it isn't. The model has the same amount / proportions as the classic miniatures:
    Spoiler:




    Kodos is perhaps talking about the older models (the Perry ones from the mid to late 90's) as the 6th edition models had horrific proportions, at best they had the proportions of infants, at worst they looked like bobble heads.

    I don't have huge problems with the proportions of this model, it just looks "okay", not "oh wow that's cool". It doesn't even look like a resin model, it looks more like a plastic one.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11561135.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11561135.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    AllSeeingSkink wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    the torso is too short, which is what we are all talking about as the upper torso does not fit and that is why the model looks off

    specially as the old Warhammer/Bretonnia models had more realistic proportions


    No, it isn't. The model has the same amount / proportions as the classic miniatures:
    Spoiler:




    Kodos is perhaps talking about the older models (the Perry ones from the mid to late 90's) as the 6th edition models had horrific proportions.


    He's been on about the miniatures from 2004 when talking about them. The 80s/90s stuff won't be what would come to mind unless it is stated specifically, as what was available before these new ones are the "old" miniatures. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11561139.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11561139.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Platuan4th wrote:
     Vulcan wrote:
     Dawnbringer wrote:
     Vulcan wrote:
     DarkBlack wrote:
    This has dragged so badly that Mantic can simply point out that you can play Kings of War right now to market their game.
    They did it in response to the original square base announcement too and it's hard to say it's too soon to do it again.


    And it's still the same game it was when I tried it after End Times blew up the world, and I didn't like it then when it was effectively free, and I'm certainly not paying for a game I'm not going to like now.

    If it's to your taste, more power to you. It's not to mine, and we'll leave it at that.


    Can I ask what you do play currently?


    Spend the last few years in the boonies playing a whole lot of nothing. Trying to find a group that still plays 8th now that I'm back in civilization.


    Checked with Eighth Edition For Life yet?


    That's the other WFB forum I'm on, for obvious reasons. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11561151.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11561151.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11562501.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11562501.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     triplegrim wrote:
    So, since epic was announced this year, does anyone believe we are looking at a 2023 release?


    Can't rule it out; general rumours are seemingly still panning out with Legions Imperialis looking set for late Summer/Autumn release. Thought was that Old World might see a launch box/rulebook towards the back end of 2023 then a follow up in the new year. Might not happen but personally I'm not dismissing it entirely just yet. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11562507.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11562507.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    JimmyWolf87 wrote:
     triplegrim wrote:
    So, since epic was announced this year, does anyone believe we are looking at a 2023 release?


    Can't rule it out; general rumours are seemingly still panning out with Legions Imperialis looking set for late Summer/Autumn release. Thought was that Old World might see a launch box/rulebook towards the back end of 2023 then a follow up in the new year. Might not happen but personally I'm not dismissing it entirely just yet.


    Valrak seems to think that there will be something like a commemorative box release once these '40 years of Warhammer' miniature showcases reach #40 later in the year.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11562510.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11562510.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    In the words of Borat - "...I is very excite"]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11563669.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11563669.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/13/cities-of-sigmar-range-announcement/

    No mention of these models being changed to made to order only though, which might be a clue for how support for the Old World will look.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565769.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565769.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Interesting that none of the Dark Elf lot are being removed! ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565771.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565771.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW will just square base these removed models to prevent confusion ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565772.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565772.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors Many of these aren’t gone for good, and will in fact be returning in due course under the banner of Warhammer: The Old World, as reinforcements for the High Elves, the Wood Elves, and the Empire." So not all of them will return, as in: some will actually be gone. Happy guessing!

    Also:
    Grail Seeker wrote:
    They also teased more Old World news later in July.

    They said the same about June, and... it did not happen. I still believe we will get something for TOW this month, but I would not bet money on it.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565774.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565774.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Grail Seeker wrote:
    Many of the remaining Warhammer fantasy lines are being squatted out of Age of Sigmar (join the club) and will be old world only. They also teased more Old World news later in July.

    https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/13/cities-of-sigmar-range-announcement/

    No mention of these models being changed to made to order only though, which might be a clue for how support for the Old World will look.



    Not much of a surprise. Every CoS book has been preceded by a culling. At least they actually get stuff this time!

    That some may live on in TOW (while it lasts) is something, I guess.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565780.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565780.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565785.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565785.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors OP units, are headed for TOW, then my optimism is shrinking drastically...
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565808.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565808.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Just Tony wrote:
    Demigryph Knights are being replaced? If that means they, and other 8th Ed. OP units, are headed for TOW, then my optimism is shrinking drastically...


    Why would you think they aren't part of it? It's not like their existence lore-wise is something that only happened during the end-times. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565813.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565813.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors AoS a loooot better than ToW.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565819.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565819.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors Would be nice to see CoS get some more magical beasties in return but with the generic horse knights I doubt that.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565824.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565824.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Aesthetically I think they fit just fine, demigryphs aren't even the most fantastical thing in the Empire range. They just need decent rules]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565827.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565827.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Mentlegen324 wrote:
     Just Tony wrote:
    Demigryph Knights are being replaced? If that means they, and other 8th Ed. OP units, are headed for TOW, then my optimism is shrinking drastically...


    Why would you think they aren't part of it? It's not like their existence lore-wise is something that only happened during the end-times.


    Well, for me part of the reason...

    lord_blackfang wrote:Demigryphs surprise me, they fit AoS a loooot better than ToW.


    ... is summed up right here. The other part...

    Grail Seeker wrote:I think it was more delusional than optimistic to think that the 8th edition Warhammer Fantasy units wouldn't be in Warhammer fantasy, especially ones like Demigryph Knights which are still in production and are super popular in the Total War games.

    Aesthetically I think they fit just fine, demigryphs aren't even the most fantastical thing in the Empire range. They just need decent rules


    ... is that they design sensibilities as well as the overlethality of units from 8th isn't something I'd like to see back.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565939.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565939.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors A. All the Sigmar/comet imagery is out of place given that this is set in a civil war with the Empire divided along religious lines. Anyone wanting to play as Ottilian or Middenland is going to be carving off large chunks of pretty much every 8E-era model.
    B. Anything with a reference to Karl Franz, who won't be born for a few centuries yet. Admittedly this didn't stop them from using the models in AoS...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565954.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565954.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Just Tony wrote:
    Mentlegen324 wrote:
     Just Tony wrote:
    Demigryph Knights are being replaced? If that means they, and other 8th Ed. OP units, are headed for TOW, then my optimism is shrinking drastically...


    Why would you think they aren't part of it? It's not like their existence lore-wise is something that only happened during the end-times.


    Well, for me part of the reason...

    lord_blackfang wrote:Demigryphs surprise me, they fit AoS a loooot better than ToW.


    ... is summed up right here. The other part...

    Grail Seeker wrote:I think it was more delusional than optimistic to think that the 8th edition Warhammer Fantasy units wouldn't be in Warhammer fantasy, especially ones like Demigryph Knights which are still in production and are super popular in the Total War games.

    Aesthetically I think they fit just fine, demigryphs aren't even the most fantastical thing in the Empire range. They just need decent rules


    ... is that they design sensibilities as well as the overlethality of units from 8th isn't something I'd like to see back.


    In what way do they not fit aesthetically? It's not as if they're some completely outlandish thing for the setting or empire. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565958.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565958.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Gert wrote:
    Yeah a bit weird but then the armour designs and riders are still very Empire themed.


    I would disagree with that assessment. The Demigrphys armor plating, as well as the riders shield, fit the aesthetic of the mortal realms (moreso the stormcast eternals than the new cities of sigmar minis) to a T and feature many similar design motifs. In fact, I don't think theres any explicit "Imperial" iconography on those models except for the one shield that has the "KF" monogram (which one assumes stands for Karl Franz).

    Either way, I'm hoping they stick around in TOW. They're great minis and I would love to build an Empire army around them.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565959.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565959.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mentlegen324 wrote:

    In what way do they not fit aesthetically? It's not as if they're some completely outlandish thing for the setting or empire.


    The Cult of Sigmar is outright banned by the Ottlilians, and the Wolf Emperors obviously prioritise Ulric. That means that every overt reference to Sigmar, a comet, twin-tailed imagery or hammer icon is suddenly extremely conspicuous for 2 of the 3(+) Empire factions in TOW.
    I think you'd struggle to find an Empire model that didn't have at least one of those.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565961.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565961.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Mozzamanx wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:

    In what way do they not fit aesthetically? It's not as if they're some completely outlandish thing for the setting or empire.


    The Cult of Sigmar is outright banned by the Ottlilians, and the Wolf Emperors obviously prioritise Ulric. That means that every overt reference to Sigmar, a comet, twin-tailed imagery or hammer icon is suddenly extremely conspicuous for 2 of the 3(+) Empire factions in TOW.
    I think you'd struggle to find an Empire model that didn't have at least one of those.


    Yes, that might be something they have to find a way to solve for this, but the complaint seems to be about the idea of demoigrpy knights in general rather than a specific detail on them.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565962.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565962.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Mozzamanx wrote:
    Anything with a reference to Karl Franz, who won't be born for a few centuries yet. Admittedly this didn't stop them from using the models in AoS...
    as if there is anyone left at studio who knows what the KF on the models means /s]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565980.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565980.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
    Mozzamanx wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:

    In what way do they not fit aesthetically? It's not as if they're some completely outlandish thing for the setting or empire.


    The Cult of Sigmar is outright banned by the Ottlilians, and the Wolf Emperors obviously prioritise Ulric. That means that every overt reference to Sigmar, a comet, twin-tailed imagery or hammer icon is suddenly extremely conspicuous for 2 of the 3(+) Empire factions in TOW.
    I think you'd struggle to find an Empire model that didn't have at least one of those.


    Yes, that might be something they have to find a way to solve for this, but the complaint seems to be about the idea of demoigrpy knights in general rather than a specific detail on them.


    That assumes that the whole spiel about the Imperial Civil War being the focal point and the Empire being where much of the action happens is still their current design brief, and not just something they marketed in the early concept stage that has fallen to the wayside by now. Since the early articles, we have seen almost nothing relating to the civil war, and much more for Bretonnians and Khemri, the focus might have shifted or the Imperium stuff might have been relegated to later releases. Who knows what happens with the Demigryph riders when they get around to it.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565991.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565991.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Mentlegen324 wrote:
     Just Tony wrote:
    Mentlegen324 wrote:
     Just Tony wrote:
    Demigryph Knights are being replaced? If that means they, and other 8th Ed. OP units, are headed for TOW, then my optimism is shrinking drastically...


    Why would you think they aren't part of it? It's not like their existence lore-wise is something that only happened during the end-times.


    Well, for me part of the reason...

    lord_blackfang wrote:Demigryphs surprise me, they fit AoS a loooot better than ToW.


    ... is summed up right here. The other part...

    Grail Seeker wrote:I think it was more delusional than optimistic to think that the 8th edition Warhammer Fantasy units wouldn't be in Warhammer fantasy, especially ones like Demigryph Knights which are still in production and are super popular in the Total War games.

    Aesthetically I think they fit just fine, demigryphs aren't even the most fantastical thing in the Empire range. They just need decent rules


    ... is that they design sensibilities as well as the overlethality of units from 8th isn't something I'd like to see back.


    In what way do they not fit aesthetically? It's not as if they're some completely outlandish thing for the setting or empire.



    Well...

    chaos0xomega wrote:
     Gert wrote:
    Yeah a bit weird but then the armour designs and riders are still very Empire themed.


    I would disagree with that assessment. The Demigrphys armor plating, as well as the riders shield, fit the aesthetic of the mortal realms (moreso the stormcast eternals than the new cities of sigmar minis) to a T and feature many similar design motifs. In fact, I don't think theres any explicit "Imperial" iconography on those models except for the one shield that has the "KF" monogram (which one assumes stands for Karl Franz).

    Either way, I'm hoping they stick around in TOW. They're great minis and I would love to build an Empire army around them.



    ... this cat already covered it.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565996.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11565996.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566010.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566010.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors HH route then they might get put in larger unit boxes at a discount on the previous price. Would be the only way I'd play Empire in TOW.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566014.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566014.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Just Tony wrote:
    Mentlegen324 wrote:
     Just Tony wrote:
    Mentlegen324 wrote:
     Just Tony wrote:
    Demigryph Knights are being replaced? If that means they, and other 8th Ed. OP units, are headed for TOW, then my optimism is shrinking drastically...


    Why would you think they aren't part of it? It's not like their existence lore-wise is something that only happened during the end-times.


    Well, for me part of the reason...

    lord_blackfang wrote:Demigryphs surprise me, they fit AoS a loooot better than ToW.


    ... is summed up right here. The other part...

    Grail Seeker wrote:I think it was more delusional than optimistic to think that the 8th edition Warhammer Fantasy units wouldn't be in Warhammer fantasy, especially ones like Demigryph Knights which are still in production and are super popular in the Total War games.

    Aesthetically I think they fit just fine, demigryphs aren't even the most fantastical thing in the Empire range. They just need decent rules


    ... is that they design sensibilities as well as the overlethality of units from 8th isn't something I'd like to see back.


    In what way do they not fit aesthetically? It's not as if they're some completely outlandish thing for the setting or empire.



    Well...

    chaos0xomega wrote:
     Gert wrote:
    Yeah a bit weird but then the armour designs and riders are still very Empire themed.


    I would disagree with that assessment. The Demigrphys armor plating, as well as the riders shield, fit the aesthetic of the mortal realms (moreso the stormcast eternals than the new cities of sigmar minis) to a T and feature many similar design motifs. In fact, I don't think theres any explicit "Imperial" iconography on those models except for the one shield that has the "KF" monogram (which one assumes stands for Karl Franz).

    Either way, I'm hoping they stick around in TOW. They're great minis and I would love to build an Empire army around them.



    ... this cat already covered it.


    "They fit AoS more than TOW because they fit AoS more than TOW" doesn't explain anything. The Karl Franz specific stuff is understandably an issue, but there's nothing about them having decorated armour that makes their overall design more AoS than TOW/WHFB..]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566031.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566031.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566043.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566043.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Just Tony wrote:
    If THAT is what you got from that, then there's no point in debating anymore.


    I'm just asking for an explanation of what specifically about them supposedly doesn't fit TOW, because I don't see anything wrong with them myself.

    They were made for WHFB in the first place with the Empire in mind. They still fit TOW, outside the Karl Franz stuff.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566052.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566052.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
     Just Tony wrote:
    If THAT is what you got from that, then there's no point in debating anymore.


    I'm just asking for an explanation of what specifically about them supposedly doesn't fit TOW, because I don't see anything wrong with them myself.

    They were made for WHFB in the first place with the Empire in mind. They still fit TOW, outside the Karl Franz stuff.


    But if you look at the models, the 'Karl Franz' stuff is everywhere - the swords are engraved with it, the coats have 'KF' monograms, their barding has it on them, and where it's not Karl Franz it's the Sigmarite comet which is also problematic for background reasons in the specific setting of TOW. Everything taken together, the kit does not fit. And they did say that 'many' of the demissioned kits would see use in TOW, they did not promise that all of them would - imho it's just that the Demigryphs sit in a niche that's too crowded now - with the various Stormcast cavalry units on the one hand and the upcoming COS cavalry on the other, and will probably just be retired entirely.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566080.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566080.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566136.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566136.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     NinthMusketeer wrote:
    Doesn't seem like all that bad a cut to me. Especially since we know at least some (artillery) is getting replaced.


    We do? Where was that mentioned? ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566150.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566150.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566153.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566153.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
     Just Tony wrote:
    If THAT is what you got from that, then there's no point in debating anymore.


    I'm just asking for an explanation of what specifically about them supposedly doesn't fit TOW, because I don't see anything wrong with them myself.

    They were made for WHFB in the first place with the Empire in mind. They still fit TOW, outside the Karl Franz stuff.


    I didn't say they don't fit TOW, I just said they aeathetically fit well within AoS. The two are not mutually exclusive, my post is being misconstrued.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566187.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566187.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
     Just Tony wrote:
    If THAT is what you got from that, then there's no point in debating anymore.


    I'm just asking for an explanation of what specifically about them supposedly doesn't fit TOW, because I don't see anything wrong with them myself.

    They were made for WHFB in the first place with the Empire in mind. They still fit TOW, outside the Karl Franz stuff.


    I didn't say they don't fit TOW, I just said they aeathetically fit well within AoS. The two are not mutually exclusive, my post is being misconstrued.


    Apparently so. I got that you were saying they fit BETTER in AOS as that fantastical aesthetic is more prevalent, but I was apparently off-base.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566271.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566271.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors The fact that steam tank and celestial hurricanum will still be in AoS perhaps indicate they will reduce the Empires knowledge of both mechanics and magic to a lower level than we saw in FB (that would be historically correct, but also remove a big chunk of the armys viability)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566329.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566329.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Fayric wrote:
    Its actually interresting to se if they just leave the empire as in classic fantasy battle or if they actually remove stuff that should not have been there in "the old world" era.
    The fact that steam tank and celestial hurricanum will still be in AoS perhaps indicate they will reduce the Empires knowledge of both mechanics and magic to a lower level than we saw in FB (that would be historically correct, but also remove a big chunk of the armys viability)


    Hopefully they will do just that with all factions - the human ones in particular should be different - will also help them sell models if they actually have new models.

    I was a bit worried this might not happen when they just reused the Free Company mini with fintlock pistol]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566334.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566334.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Mozzamanx wrote:

    The Cult of Sigmar is outright banned by the Ottlilians, and the Wolf Emperors obviously prioritise Ulric. .


    Isn't it more that Ottilia 1st, 800 years before the modern period of TOW banned the cult of sigmar (nevermind that she also moved the cult of Ulric to her domain), during her reign commencing in 1360.

    But the empire(s) of 2250-2300, and indeed Ottilian culture, might be very different, with who knows how many ecumenical, reformist and counterreformist developments in those eight (!) intervening centuries. (And indeed the emergence of wolf emperors and the return of the cult of Ulric to Middenheim prior to 1547 tells us some of the many many changes that may have occurred). ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566405.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566405.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Fayric wrote:
    Its actually interresting to se if they just leave the empire as in classic fantasy battle or if they actually remove stuff that should not have been there in "the old world" era.
    The fact that steam tank and celestial hurricanum will still be in AoS perhaps indicate they will reduce the Empires knowledge of both mechanics and magic to a lower level than we saw in FB (that would be historically correct, but also remove a big chunk of the armys viability)
    I feel like the existence of Cogforts trumps the 'tech level' of any units we've seen so far.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566587.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566587.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     NinthMusketeer wrote:
     Fayric wrote:
    Its actually interresting to se if they just leave the empire as in classic fantasy battle or if they actually remove stuff that should not have been there in "the old world" era.
    The fact that steam tank and celestial hurricanum will still be in AoS perhaps indicate they will reduce the Empires knowledge of both mechanics and magic to a lower level than we saw in FB (that would be historically correct, but also remove a big chunk of the armys viability)
    I feel like the existence of Cogforts trumps the 'tech level' of any units we've seen so far.


    With the possible exception of Slaanesh ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566639.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566639.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     PetitionersCity wrote:

    Isn't it more that Ottilia 1st, 800 years before the modern period of TOW banned the cult of sigmar (nevermind that she also moved the cult of Ulric to her domain), during her reign commencing in 1360.

    But the empire(s) of 2250-2300, and indeed Ottilian culture, might be very different, with who knows how many ecumenical, reformist and counterreformist developments in those eight (!) intervening centuries. (And indeed the emergence of wolf emperors and the return of the cult of Ulric to Middenheim prior to 1547 tells us some of the many many changes that may have occurred).


    Of course, it's to be expected that the setting will change a little in 800 years, but that also goes in reverse; you wouldn't expect Magnus' Empire to look much like Franz'. I'd say it would be a very strange decision to set the game in a period of division without trying to make that division visible. I suppose an equivalent would be Age of Darkness where both Loyalists and Traitors are covered in aquilas.

     Fayric wrote:
    Its actually interresting to se if they just leave the empire as in classic fantasy battle or if they actually remove stuff that should not have been there in "the old world" era.
    The fact that steam tank and celestial hurricanum will still be in AoS perhaps indicate they will reduce the Empires knowledge of both mechanics and magic to a lower level than we saw in FB (that would be historically correct, but also remove a big chunk of the armys viability)


    I believe the Hurricanum is explicitly a post-College invention, meaning that it shouldn't be in TOW. On the other hand the Steam Tanks are a few hundred years old and if anything, there should be more of them because they are in decline in WFB.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566647.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566647.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW want to invest here

    But I don't expect anything but Resin parts to exchange the KF stuff]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566652.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566652.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Obviously old models won't.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566656.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566656.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Fayric wrote:
    Its actually interresting to se if they just leave the empire as in classic fantasy battle or if they actually remove stuff that should not have been there in "the old world" era.
    The fact that steam tank and celestial hurricanum will still be in AoS perhaps indicate they will reduce the Empires knowledge of both mechanics and magic to a lower level than we saw in FB (that would be historically correct, but also remove a big chunk of the armys viability)

    Keep in mind they have stated - in no uncertain terms - that every unit from 8th edition will get rules for TOW.* Some things might get the "index treatment", and I guess this will include the Luminark/Hurricanum. They will still be playable though.

    As for the "Karl Franz" thing: one could easily handwave it as the name of some local nobility, it is not that unusual a name for the Empire after all.


    * ... this may or may not be actually true, see a few posts down.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566662.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566662.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors AoS models replace the empire stuff, TOW cant be far away, right ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566672.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566672.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Darnok wrote:
     Fayric wrote:
    Its actually interresting to se if they just leave the empire as in classic fantasy battle or if they actually remove stuff that should not have been there in "the old world" era.
    The fact that steam tank and celestial hurricanum will still be in AoS perhaps indicate they will reduce the Empires knowledge of both mechanics and magic to a lower level than we saw in FB (that would be historically correct, but also remove a big chunk of the armys viability)

    Keep in mind they have stated - in no uncertain terms - that every unit from 8th edition will get rules for TOW. Some things might get the "index treatment", and I guess this will include the Luminark/Hurricanum. They will still be playable though.


    Have they now? Please take no offence, but i don't remember that specific wording - although it's easily possible they did say so and i just forgot among all the stuff. If you could provide a citation or source i'd greatly appreciate it!]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566673.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566673.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Tsagualsa wrote:
     Darnok wrote:
    Keep in mind they have stated - in no uncertain terms - that every unit from 8th edition will get rules for TOW. Some things might get the "index treatment", and I guess this will include the Luminark/Hurricanum. They will still be playable though.

    Have they now? Please take no offence, but i don't remember that specific wording - although it's easily possible they did say so and i just forgot among all the stuff. If you could provide a citation or source i'd greatly appreciate it!

    It is not impossible I might be reading too much into things.

    But...

    In the "The Main Factions Revealed" article on May 23rd, after the confirmation of PDF rules for the "minor" factions they also stated: "We don’t plan to publish rules for Warhammer Age of Sigmar miniatures, except for those units that were part of the game and setting during the final edition of Warhammer Fantasy Battles." If this applies to everything from the main factions as well... good question actually. I think it can be read both ways, and I have to paddle back on my "in no uncertain terms" statement.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566688.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566688.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Darnok wrote:
    Tsagualsa wrote:
     Darnok wrote:
    Keep in mind they have stated - in no uncertain terms - that every unit from 8th edition will get rules for TOW. Some things might get the "index treatment", and I guess this will include the Luminark/Hurricanum. They will still be playable though.

    Have they now? Please take no offence, but i don't remember that specific wording - although it's easily possible they did say so and i just forgot among all the stuff. If you could provide a citation or source i'd greatly appreciate it!

    It is not impossible I might be reading too much into things.

    But...

    In the "The Main Factions Revealed" article on May 23rd, after the confirmation of PDF rules for the "minor" factions they also stated: "We don’t plan to publish rules for Warhammer Age of Sigmar miniatures, except for those units that were part of the game and setting during the final edition of Warhammer Fantasy Battles." If this applies to everything from the main factions as well... good question actually. I think it can be read both ways, and I have to paddle back on my "in no uncertain terms" statement.


    Thanks. At the time, i read that as 'some models currently parts of AOS will receive rules for TOW', but not as 'everything in 8th will get TOW rules', but i see how it could be read that way. I guess we'll have to wait until more information becomes available.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566699.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566699.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Mozzamanx wrote:
    On the other hand the Steam Tanks are a few hundred years old and if anything, there should be more of them because they are in decline in WFB.


    So they'll be a 0-12 choice instead of 0-8?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566726.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11566726.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/24/old-world-development-diary-the-more-things-change-the-more-they-stay-the-same/?utm_source=CUSTOMERS&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=GW_24th_July_Wildercorpse_ENG_&utm_content=&utm_term=

    That they've gone back to play old versions of the game when working out the rules for this is a good sign, at least.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570714.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570714.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    hopefully followed by the sound of a gunshot as sensible people take over]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570716.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570716.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    With this in mind, we set about playing lots of games.**
    ** It’s a tough job, but someone’s gotta do it…


    Too tough for the 40k devs apparently. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570718.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570718.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Personally, to me the article uses a lot of words to not really tell us much in concrete terms. After the whole "10th edition 40k will be less lethal" marketing misfire, I am not inclined to trust empty marketing promises from WarCom without concrete explanations of how the rules actually work.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570721.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570721.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570722.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570722.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570723.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570723.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570729.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570729.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570739.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570739.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Arbitrator wrote:
    With this in mind, we set about playing lots of games.**
    ** It’s a tough job, but someone’s gotta do it…


    Too tough for the 40k devs apparently.


    setting "Ooof" to 11]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570740.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570740.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570744.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570744.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570747.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570747.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570752.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570752.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     zedmeister wrote:
    Interesting that they showed off a lot of older terrain plastic pieces in the photos - return of the mighty fortress, hills, etc?


    I can see more recent scenery returning for a time: the fortified manor house, the wizards tower that looked excellent except for the skulls, that sort of thing.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570754.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570754.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Rihgu wrote:Attacking with the entire front rank... sure hope they put a LOT of thought into this mechanic.


    The moment they decided that you can use whatever base sizes you like it was clear that anything but this solution would lead to endless arguments about modelling for advantage

    Grail Seeker wrote:The section on magic might be the most interesting part of the article.


    If you read between the lines it means AOS/40k-style 'magic' where the spells are just preset abilities that you can use. No dice pools and no hands of cards means that the system will probably be pretty simple, if there's a 'system' at all - at worst it's preset spells per character, with most of them limited in range and enemy wizards having an x+ 'counter' roll. Their statement that game-deciding spells will be 'rare' probably means the same. If we're lucky, there'll at least be a list of spells to roll/pick from, if we're out of luck it's twenty variations of the 'D6 mortal wounds without calling it that' fireball.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570755.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570755.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
     zedmeister wrote:
    Interesting that they showed off a lot of older terrain plastic pieces in the photos - return of the mighty fortress, hills, etc?


    I can see more recent scenery returning for a time: the fortified manor house, the wizards tower that looked excellent except for the skulls, that sort of thing.


    Yeah, those two towers are excellent for use in Frostgrave, after some modifications of course...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570758.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570758.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Tsagualsa wrote:


    Grail Seeker wrote:The section on magic might be the most interesting part of the article.


    If you read between the lines it means AOS/40k-style 'magic' where the spells are just preset abilities that you can use. No dice pools and no hands of cards means that the system will probably be pretty simple, if there's a 'system' at all - at worst it's preset spells per character, with most of them limited in range and enemy wizards having an x+ 'counter' roll. Their statement that game-deciding spells will be 'rare' probably means the same. If we're lucky, there'll at least be a list of spells to roll/pick from, if we're out of luck it's twenty variations of the 'D6 mortal wounds without calling it that' fireball.


    Yeah... for all of the 'classic WFB' talk about the Old World, this is not the direction I thought they'd go, and its a huge change in direction.


    Not incredibly thrilled by a return of the 'pushing result' of combat resolution, either. That wasn't all that fun.

    This feels a little out of touch with what we were told they were aiming for.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570762.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570762.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    All I'll say really is that they are making the right noises when talking about this game and I just hope they deliver.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570776.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570776.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
    the wizards tower that looked excellent except for the skulls


    Do you have any idea how little that narrows it down?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570777.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570777.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    Personally, to me the article uses a lot of words to not really tell us much in concrete terms. After the whole "10th edition 40k will be less lethal" marketing misfire, I am not inclined to trust empty marketing promises from WarCom without concrete explanations of how the rules actually work.


    This. It's amazing how well GW has mastered the art of writing a bunch of words without ever saying anything of substance. Got to meet that article quota even if you have nothing to say!]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570778.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570778.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    But thats kinda old news? We already knew they were cribbing from previous editions of the game to develop the rules.

    Personally, to me the article uses a lot of words to not really tell us much in concrete terms. After the whole "10th edition 40k will be less lethal" marketing misfire, I am not inclined to trust empty marketing promises from WarCom without concrete explanations of how the rules actually work.

    there are some "news" in the details:

    - No more magic phase, but spells in other phases
    - There is the possibility of a retreat if you lose the combat (and do not flee), not clear if the winner must push back and may advance or may push back and must advance
    - The whole rank that is in melee can attack, regardless of base contact
    - Units can be as wide as the player wants them to be
    - The formation of the unit is an essential part of the game.
    - The changes in the rules are based on what the designers have liked and disliked about playing the game over the last few months

    and depending on how you read the last part it tells us 2 things
    first they really just started recently and it is not a long planned project over years but they decided on what the core rules should be in the past months
    second the changes are based in the impression of the designers, not what flaws the game had in the past or balance problems with factions, and it could also mean there are people working on it that never played Warhammer before but just took an Edition and adjusted it

    something else that is coming with this, depending on if the change of formation is important during the game or just during the setup, that movement trays to adjust base size won't work well.
    also they did not used any trays in the promo pictures

    and last, they are referring to older versions of the game with the names and underlining the RPG part, it could really mean they took more influence from 3rd (not that it is a bad thing but if people want R&F combat back, a RPG with some units on the table is not what is expected)]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570789.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570789.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     ThePaintingOwl wrote:
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    Personally, to me the article uses a lot of words to not really tell us much in concrete terms. After the whole "10th edition 40k will be less lethal" marketing misfire, I am not inclined to trust empty marketing promises from WarCom without concrete explanations of how the rules actually work.


    This. It's amazing how well GW has mastered the art of writing a bunch of words without ever saying anything of substance. Got to meet that article quota even if you have nothing to say!


    Yeah. Pretty sure they have no game at all. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes

    I'm good with magic just being a set of abilities though. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570790.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570790.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     triplegrim wrote:
     ThePaintingOwl wrote:
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    Personally, to me the article uses a lot of words to not really tell us much in concrete terms. After the whole "10th edition 40k will be less lethal" marketing misfire, I am not inclined to trust empty marketing promises from WarCom without concrete explanations of how the rules actually work.


    This. It's amazing how well GW has mastered the art of writing a bunch of words without ever saying anything of substance. Got to meet that article quota even if you have nothing to say!


    Yeah. Pretty sure they have no game at all. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes

    I'm good with magic just being a set of abilities though.


    Nah, I'm sure they have a game. It would be too embarrassing to fail to release a game after all the hype they've built up and too easy to shovel out some quarter-assed update of the last WHFB edition, followed shortly after by quietly dropping it like they've done with other niche games. It may not be a good game but they'll print something and then use its failure to justify their decision to kill off WHFB.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570792.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570792.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Tsagualsa wrote:
    Rihgu wrote:Attacking with the entire front rank... sure hope they put a LOT of thought into this mechanic.


    The moment they decided that you can use whatever base sizes you like it was clear that anything but this solution would lead to endless arguments about modelling for advantage

    Grail Seeker wrote:The section on magic might be the most interesting part of the article.


    If you read between the lines it means AOS/40k-style 'magic' where the spells are just preset abilities that you can use. No dice pools and no hands of cards means that the system will probably be pretty simple, if there's a 'system' at all - at worst it's preset spells per character, with most of them limited in range and enemy wizards having an x+ 'counter' roll. Their statement that game-deciding spells will be 'rare' probably means the same. If we're lucky, there'll at least be a list of spells to roll/pick from, if we're out of luck it's twenty variations of the 'D6 mortal wounds without calling it that' fireball.


    There are a lot of assumptions in this, and its not worth arguing about things neither one of us know. it could be as bad as you say, it might not be. But I can say i am definitely interested in a different take on magic in WHB. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570803.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570803.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Rihgu wrote:
    Attacking with the entire front rank... sure hope they put a LOT of thought into this mechanic.


    I'd celebrate giving people a reason to go wide with their formations, but if they don't adjust the movement system in sync with this change, it's going to be a mess.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570805.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570805.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:

    - The changes in the rules are based on what the designers have liked and disliked about playing the game over the last few months

    and depending on how you read the last part it tells us 2 things
    first they really just started recently and it is not a long planned project over years but they decided on what the core rules should be in the past months
    second the changes are based in the impression of the designers, not what flaws the game had in the past or balance problems with factions, and it could also mean there are people working on it that never played Warhammer before but just took an Edition and adjusted it



    The article doesn't say "the last few months", it says "For several months the designers regularly assembled to play games of every edition of Warhammer Fantasy Battle".

    Could have been recent, could have been a year ago. To say they just started recently is speculation at best. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570808.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570808.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    it says nothing really but that "nothing" would have generated hype 1 year ago while now not so much
    that we did not got it earlier were hints for rules changes would have been more important for the marketing rather than covering a computer game tells me that there was nothing to write about regarding rules back than

    and I also wrote "depending on how you read it" not that it is an absolute fact]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570813.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570813.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570835.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570835.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW marketing generally does not tell anything until pre-order starts

    so we must expect pre-orders next Saturday TOW marketing follows the general pattern]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570843.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570843.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lord_blackfang wrote:
     Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
    the wizards tower that looked excellent except for the skulls


    Do you have any idea how little that narrows it down?




    Ignoring the skull joke, I'm pretty sure that there was only one wizards tower (skullvane manse), unless I've forgotten one? The Warmaster one doesn't count ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570868.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570868.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    if they would have done that 1-2 years ago, that very same article could have also released 1-2 years ago

    it says nothing really but that "nothing" would have generated hype 1 year ago while now not so much
    that we did not got it earlier were hints for rules changes would have been more important for the marketing rather than covering a computer game tells me that there was nothing to write about regarding rules back than

    and I also wrote "depending on how you read it" not that it is an absolute fact


    Well. If they have just started playing the game we are looking at maybe 2025 release.

    GW doesn't generally put out that long ahead information though.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570869.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570869.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    similar to Sisters they are doing things differently to what they to generally
    game might be close, or 2 years away, one can hope but don't be disappointed]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570871.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570871.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors AoS next summer.
    With Cities of Sigmar almost out of the way, I think it's probably coming out in Autumn this year.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570879.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570879.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570881.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570881.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Gert wrote:
    Legions Imperialis is in August and there's a new edition of AoS next summer.
    With Cities of Sigmar almost out of the way, I think it's probably coming out in Autumn this year.


    Some token-effort box to coincide with the 40th 'showcase miniature' for Warhammer's 40th birthday, some nostalgia bait releases before christmas, serious releases next year if it ever comes to that.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570898.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570898.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
    Considering they've still given nothing but absolute surface level, i find that hard to believe. Those aren't even new photos i believe.


    They are absolutely new photos. Models are on upsized bases and war machines are actually based.

    So, we can conclude, if nothing else, they've at least manufactured the new cavalry bases. So that's something.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570911.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570911.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Gert wrote:
    With Cities of Sigmar almost out of the way, I think it's probably coming out in Autumn this year.


    Well, I guess they can be vague so far in terms of the rules on intent so that they keep content for Warhammer community articles...but honestly, that's not giving me faith. When I read this article, it really gives me the feeling of them still exploring what to use for the game system. Which is not a sign of a game ready to go in a couple of months, to me.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570920.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570920.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sarouan wrote:
     Gert wrote:
    With Cities of Sigmar almost out of the way, I think it's probably coming out in Autumn this year.


    Well, I guess they can be vague so far in terms of the rules on intent so that they keep content for Warhammer community articles...but honestly, that's not giving me faith. When I read this article, it really gives me the feeling of them still exploring what to use for the game system. Which is not a sign of a game ready to go in a couple of months, to me.


    Current container lead time is still about 6 months, add writing, layout and the actual printing times and you're looking at 9-12 months of total lead time from the desk to a product in-store, and that's cutting it rather sharp. It practically means that either the product is finished and has been for a couple of months at least (if they want to release something this year) or it will not be coming within a year from now.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570930.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570930.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors AOS" crap the same day as the WHC articles now?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570935.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570935.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Tsagualsa wrote:


    If you read between the lines it means AOS/40k-style 'magic' where the spells are just preset abilities that you can use. No dice pools and no hands of cards means that the system will probably be pretty simple, if there's a 'system' at all - at worst it's preset spells per character, with most of them limited in range and enemy wizards having an x+ 'counter' roll. Their statement that game-deciding spells will be 'rare' probably means the same. If we're lucky, there'll at least be a list of spells to roll/pick from, if we're out of luck it's twenty variations of the 'D6 mortal wounds without calling it that' fireball.


    There are no dice pools in 40k/AoS I'm aware of that they reference in this article.

    I do agree with what most everyone has said here, lot of words for really nothing of substance. Besides the base thing not really being a super duper important issue now.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570936.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570936.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
     lord_blackfang wrote:
     Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
    the wizards tower that looked excellent except for the skulls


    Do you have any idea how little that narrows it down?




    Ignoring the skull joke, I'm pretty sure that there was only one wizards tower (skullvane manse), unless I've forgotten one? The Warmaster one doesn't count


    There were two ruined ones that could be combined to make something more intact - Witchfate Tor and Dreadstone Blight.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570939.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570939.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     nathan2004 wrote:
    Tsagualsa wrote:


    If you read between the lines it means AOS/40k-style 'magic' where the spells are just preset abilities that you can use. No dice pools and no hands of cards means that the system will probably be pretty simple, if there's a 'system' at all - at worst it's preset spells per character, with most of them limited in range and enemy wizards having an x+ 'counter' roll. Their statement that game-deciding spells will be 'rare' probably means the same. If we're lucky, there'll at least be a list of spells to roll/pick from, if we're out of luck it's twenty variations of the 'D6 mortal wounds without calling it that' fireball.


    There are no dice pools in 40k/AoS I'm aware of that they reference in this article.

    .


    You got my meaning the wrong way around: they said that TOW won't 'focus on managing dice pools or hands of cards' (which WHFB historically used for its magic phase, old-school used Energy Cards / Winds of Magic cards, later editions used pools of power dice and dispel dice) - this, in my opinion, means that they're now aiming for a magic system that is more like in AoS or Warhammer 40k, where spells are abilities that are bound to units, and do not operate on an army-wide pool at all. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570940.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570940.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570946.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570946.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors Ld test that led to breaking and destroying entire enemy units and routing their nearby friends (or not) was too swingy* I was hoping for a more incremental thing, where units need to accumulate some morale penalty tokens or sth before they break, and until they do, they only give ground slightly. Hopefuly it's some kind of a similar solution.


    *-unsurprisingly factions immune to it were the strongest in the game, edition after edition.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570950.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570950.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Cyel wrote:
    Even in the old editions I was thinking that this coin toss Ld test that led to breaking and destroying entire enemy units and routing their nearby friends (or not) was too swingy* I was hoping for a more incremental thing, where units need to accumulate some morale penalty tokens or sth before they break, and until they do, they only give ground slightly. Hopefuly it's some kind of a similar solution.


    *-unsurprisingly factions immune to it were the strongest in the game, edition after edition.


    You are loosely describing the system in Kings of War.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570974.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570974.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    so folk who've been reasonably happy with how the Middle Earth stuff has been handled/written will hopefully see similar handling for this]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570983.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11570983.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I still think we'll see a release for this towards the end of the year, but all their vaguebooking isn't helping things. The magic stuff sounds just like 10th magic - they're just set abilities that Wizards have and there's no chance of ever changing what spell any given Wizard has.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571050.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571050.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    First, ond most importantly, the rules seem to be at the point where things are set in stone. Meaning the whole thing could be around the corner... or still a year away. Either way, we know about as much about the TOW rules as we know about LI - and that one is confirmed for next month.

    The second thing I am actually not really happy about, and that is a massive change to the magic system. Apparently this is going to be like AoS/40K are handling magic/psychic things right now. I am not a fan.

    Not really of worth for discussing the game system itself, but I like the look of the armies shown. They look chonky, without going overboard (as during 8th edition). And this...



    ... is refreshingly small in terms of WHF army sizes of old. Basically a handful of units a side, plus some additional warmachines or monsters... and it still looks like a proper game. I am a fan.

    Anyway.

    At least they actually posted something during July, after announcing an article for June and then staying silent without any mention whatsoever.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571063.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571063.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571071.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571071.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    Can anyone tell if those Stone Trolls are the current "Troggoths" or the old metal ones?

    They are the old WHF sculpts. Whether they will come back in metal or resin is to be seen.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571072.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571072.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    The "Rockgut Troggoths", despite their obnoxious name, are just plastic Stone Trolls. They even use the same poses, and the 'Evy Metal team painted them in much the same colours as the originals.

    I would really hope that you can just use those rather than bringing back the (smaller) old sculpts.

    It'd be like forbidding Goblin players from using the new Squig Riders and re-releasing the old metal ones.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571075.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571075.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    But who am I kidding? They probably end up being resin, even more expensive than the current 'bay listings - or both.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571079.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571079.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    See... that's just cutting your nose off to spite your face.
    The "Rockgut Troggoths", despite their obnoxious name, are just plastic Stone Trolls. They even use the same poses, and the 'Evy Metal team painted them in much the same colours as the originals.
    I would really hope that you can just use those rather than bringing back the (smaller) old sculpts.
    It'd be like forbidding Goblin players from using the new Squig Riders and re-releasing the old metal ones.

    you can always use what you want, but I doubt that the new models will fit the indented bases and rank up

    and for now, those are all the old models, everything that was released after 8th or is incorporated into AoS is cut from TOW
    there are the old 6th Edi metal Slayer, old Orc Chariots, no Night Goblins, Island of Blood Elves, old Tree Spirits, old Trolls etc.

    big question here is will those be metal, resin or finecast and I am not really happy with any of those
    not because metal or resin is bad, but that GW metal casting was bad by 8th (and if they just use the old moulds it won't be better) and their resin is not that good either

    PS: and by the picture of the dwarf and Orc army we now can be sure that we really just start there were warhammer 8th ended, with a mix of models from different design periods that don't really mix/match together with some kits already being not good back than and one reason why it did not appeal to new players or veterans starting another army]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571091.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571091.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    you can always use what you want, but I doubt that the new models will fit the indented bases and rank up
    Mine are on square bases and they're fine.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571095.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571095.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Darnok wrote:
    While the article was surprisingly light on anything of substance, it made two solid points.

    First, ond most importantly, the rules seem to be at the point where things are set in stone. Meaning the whole thing could be around the corner... or still a year away. Either way, we know about as much about the TOW rules as we know about LI - and that one is confirmed for next month.

    The second thing I am actually not really happy about, and that is a massive change to the magic system. Apparently this is going to be like AoS/40K are handling magic/psychic things right now. I am not a fan.

    Not really of worth for discussing the game system itself, but I like the look of the armies shown. They look chonky, without going overboard (as during 8th edition). And this...



    ... is refreshingly small in terms of WHF army sizes of old. Basically a handful of units a side, plus some additional warmachines or monsters... and it still looks like a proper game. I am a fan.

    Anyway.

    At least they actually posted something during July, after announcing an article for June and then staying silent without any mention whatsoever.


    Small?

    No, it's made to look small, the warboss on wyvern, trolls and boarboyz weren't excactly cheap with only 2 "normal infantry" units on the ork side being the squads of boys

    Much the same on the imperium side, Goldhänders, demigryphs and steamtank alone would break into the 1000 pts with the HQ i rekon. With only a squad of spears and a squad of muskets. So for a 2000 pts game rough guestimate those forces are actually overly elite. FWIW weren't demigryphs and steamtanks not both rare choices aswell? AFAIK you only got 1 slot for rare at that point level if i remember correctly.

    That'd be like being surprised that my Chaos warrior army is small on the field (mind it's easily at 3000pts), after seeing me put down 10 khorne chaos knights 5 chaos knights with lances and a sorcerer on manticor and then fielding 3 squads of chaos warriors and some barbarian chaff.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571117.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571117.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571122.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571122.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Look how vague the info is for LI's rule system is currently, and we're less than a month away from release. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571129.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571129.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors hope from the battle image we no longer have laser guided cannons or that Wyvern isn't going to live long

    unless GW do the usual battle report type play testing where they fire it at some chaff unit to try and be fluffy

    allowing wider units actually is nice too, though perhaps "the entire front rank" fights is a bit much, shouldn't be more than what could contact front and maybe sides as an option (risking further flank charges maybe). given the small number of turns typically it could be better to go down the "everyone fights" route and in effect resolve the combat in one round with the loser pushed back and possible follow ups - i.e. the way many historical games do it.

    regardless, guess we will see at some point]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571139.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571139.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    - Why does the Empire army have a War Altar, given that it's built after the Great War? Its anachronistic to the setting. The model has the words 'EMPEROR KARL FRANZ' emblazoned on the side.
    - Demigryph Knights obviously there, again rehashing the previous comments about Sigmarite imagery. I also see the Champion wielding the sword option, which again has 'Karl Franz' printed on it.
    - Old Stone Trolls are extremely surprising given that I took the Rockgut Troggoths to be a spiritual successor. That immediately opens the door to maintaining old WFB variants of Chaos Warriors, Saurus, Undead etc., which is potentially a significant amount of baggage.
    - The High Elves have models from the IoB, which is strange because they share sprues with the Skaven half who we've just been told aren't part of the narrative. Is IoB coming back anyway, or have the sculpts been recut somehow?
    - Those Orc Boys were old in 8E and personally, were a major contributor to me not owning any Orc Boys in 8E. Now they're being resold in an environment where I can get Avatars of War alternatives. A complete non-starter for me and I was already building an Orc army. I suspect that anyone holding a merchant license is about to make an absolute killing if the competition is 6E-era plastics at 2023 prices.
    - The resource planning of power vs dispel dice is a major part of the fun in magic, so I'm extremely sceptical about such a fundamental change.
    - I think more detail on the fighting rank would have been nice, because that just sets off alarm bells. The minimal information in the article just makes me think deathstars again but wide instead of deep.

    Even more pessimistic than I was before.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571146.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571146.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571154.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571154.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Grail Seeker wrote:
    The section on magic might be the most interesting part of the article.


    This. SOunds like 40k, and from what other people who play it tell me, AOS. It's not necesserily a bad thing in itself, we'll have to see the whole rules before any judgements can be made.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571168.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571168.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    leopard wrote:
    the models are probably whatever they could find on a shelf or in a box and blow the dust off


    And take the time to re-base. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571173.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571173.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     .Mikes. wrote:
    Grail Seeker wrote:
    The section on magic might be the most interesting part of the article.


    This. SOunds like 40k, and from what other people who play it tell me, AOS. It's not necesserily a bad thing in itself, we'll have to see the whole rules before any judgements can be made.

    I hope it’s more like 30k where you actually get to choose your spells/powers and there’s still some sort of test to use them without consequences. 10th edition 40K psychic anything is extremely lacklustre, basically boiling down to some things having an additional keyword that might interact with other things. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571174.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571174.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Mozzamanx wrote:
    I have concerns. In no particular order:

    - Why does the Empire army have a War Altar, given that it's built after the Great War? Its anachronistic to the setting. The model has the words 'EMPEROR KARL FRANZ' emblazoned on the side.
    - Demigryph Knights obviously there, again rehashing the previous comments about Sigmarite imagery. I also see the Champion wielding the sword option, which again has 'Karl Franz' printed on it.
    - Old Stone Trolls are extremely surprising given that I took the Rockgut Troggoths to be a spiritual successor. That immediately opens the door to maintaining old WFB variants of Chaos Warriors, Saurus, Undead etc., which is potentially a significant amount of baggage.
    - The High Elves have models from the IoB, which is strange because they share sprues with the Skaven half who we've just been told aren't part of the narrative. Is IoB coming back anyway, or have the sculpts been recut somehow?
    - Those Orc Boys were old in 8E and personally, were a major contributor to me not owning any Orc Boys in 8E. Now they're being resold in an environment where I can get Avatars of War alternatives. A complete non-starter for me and I was already building an Orc army. I suspect that anyone holding a merchant license is about to make an absolute killing if the competition is 6E-era plastics at 2023 prices.
    - The resource planning of power vs dispel dice is a major part of the fun in magic, so I'm extremely sceptical about such a fundamental change.
    - I think more detail on the fighting rank would have been nice, because that just sets off alarm bells. The minimal information in the article just makes me think deathstars again but wide instead of deep.

    Even more pessimistic than I was before.


    It's just a random flair photo, don't think too much of it - who knows when in the pipeline this was made, it might well be from before they even decided on the background setting. Also, they obviously don't give half a gak anyway, it's about selling expensified old models, they can have 'Karl Frantz' tattoed on their eyeballs for all they care. They'll just invent some lame nonsense, like great-great Grandfather Karl Franz the first and relegate the End-Times Karl to the Karl the Second or whatever.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571175.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571175.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571184.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571184.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Fayric wrote:
    I notice how all the heroes and wizards in the article pictures are not part of units. That might be a clue to character functions. Or not.


    Personally I'm erring towards 'or not'. It's typically been how they photograph character models in WH:Fantasy since as far back as I can remember for display shots like these. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571189.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571189.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571199.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571199.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571203.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571203.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Mozzamanx wrote:I have concerns. In no particular order:

    - Why does the Empire army have a War Altar, given that it's built after the Great War? Its anachronistic to the setting. The model has the words 'EMPEROR KARL FRANZ' emblazoned on the side.
    - Demigryph Knights obviously there, again rehashing the previous comments about Sigmarite imagery. I also see the Champion wielding the sword option, which again has 'Karl Franz' printed on it.
    - Old Stone Trolls are extremely surprising given that I took the Rockgut Troggoths to be a spiritual successor. That immediately opens the door to maintaining old WFB variants of Chaos Warriors, Saurus, Undead etc., which is potentially a significant amount of baggage.
    - The High Elves have models from the IoB, which is strange because they share sprues with the Skaven half who we've just been told aren't part of the narrative. Is IoB coming back anyway, or have the sculpts been recut somehow?
    - Those Orc Boys were old in 8E and personally, were a major contributor to me not owning any Orc Boys in 8E. Now they're being resold in an environment where I can get Avatars of War alternatives. A complete non-starter for me and I was already building an Orc army. I suspect that anyone holding a merchant license is about to make an absolute killing if the competition is 6E-era plastics at 2023 prices.
    - The resource planning of power vs dispel dice is a major part of the fun in magic, so I'm extremely sceptical about such a fundamental change.
    - I think more detail on the fighting rank would have been nice, because that just sets off alarm bells. The minimal information in the article just makes me think deathstars again but wide instead of deep.

    Even more pessimistic than I was before.


    Your preference. I'm personally wanting a ton of those 6th Ed. Orc Boys...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571215.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571215.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors AoS and models I'd like to use again]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571218.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571218.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I'm not sure the presence of older or multi sprue models means much more than "they were in the cabinet and easily found for photography" at this point to be honest.

    It will be interesting to see to what extent obvious like for like updates to the AOS range are permitted or encouraged and which are not. I would be... amazed if they genuinely expected people to use the older Lizardmen or Night Goblin models over more modern equivalents that work just as well. I suspect GW may well be less prescriptive about this that people think.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571219.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571219.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571220.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571220.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I really can't imagine that, for example, the old Citadel Stone Trolls will be re-released. They are tiny when compared to modern sculpts. It would be amazing if the metal models from that era were bought back though, I can't imagine why anybody would be against it, obviously GW would keep the modern models in production too.

    Again, I think it's very unlikely.


     Tastyfish wrote:

    There were two ruined ones that could be combined to make something more intact - Witchfate Tor and Dreadstone Blight.


    Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about those!

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571224.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571224.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571225.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571225.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mr_Rose wrote:
    I reckon they’re not showing trays because current policy is that nothing makes it into product shots that they don’t actually sell, and someone decided that resurrecting the old movement tray kit was not worth the mould time.


    They also usually don't show cards, dice, templates and whippy-sticks or measures in these promo shots; it's just that, a shot to promote the world's best Citadel™ miniatures, and not an accurate representation of how a typical gaming table would look like. People read too much into it.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571228.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571228.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571229.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571229.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
    I wonder if people are reading too much into the Warcom pictures? Aren't they just old studio armies?

    I really can't imagine that, for example, the old Citadel Stone Trolls will be re-released. They are tiny when compared to modern sculpts. It would be amazing if the metal models from that era were bought back though, I can't imagine why anybody would be against it, obviously GW would keep the modern models in production too.

    Again, I think it's very unlikely.


    I don't know how GW plans to keep another extensive set of miniature ranges in production, but with the outlook that they're not planning on having substantial refreshes in plastic, they'll need to bring back and keep around a lot of old kits if they intend to sell functional armies. They'll need staff and dust off metal casting machines. I don't find it unlikely that GW would want a wide range of metal models around to give those guys something to do instead of paying them to sit around half the time.

    It's also unclear how much of The Old World ranges makes it into physical stores and how much is reserved for GW's webstore. It's conceivable that metal units are kept around in small numbers or even just cast up for an order.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571241.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571241.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
    I wonder if people are reading too much into the Warcom pictures? Aren't they just old studio armies?

    I really can't imagine that, for example, the old Citadel Stone Trolls will be re-released. They are tiny when compared to modern sculpts. It would be amazing if the metal models from that era were bought back though, I can't imagine why anybody would be against it, obviously GW would keep the modern models in production too.

    Again, I think it's very unlikely.
    first of all, those are the old studio models with new bases, some of those already been re-based twice as they went from 20mm square to 25mm round and now to 25mm square

    next point is that they explicit show old models were newer ones are available, which would mean they are not going to sell the AoS stuff with square bases but rather re-release the old metal models (otherwise there is no point in showing them at all if the other models are available with square bases as they need to have them for promo pics on the boxes)

    in addition, this is the full nostalgia experience for those that like the old stuff and have enough money to pay whatever GW asks to get the old metal models back
    we have seen what GW asked for the Steel Legion made to order and I expect the same here
    people asked to get the nostalgia so GW let them pay for it]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571244.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571244.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     KidCthulhu wrote:
    Anyone else notice a distinct lack of moment trays? Will units often reform shape like in Clan War?


    Noticed it and just shrugged it off as GW not selling 'Official Olde Worlde Movement Class Trays' at the moment.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571259.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571259.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors HH has gone. Really puts me off sadly, I might not be able to resist orc boar boyz though….. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571270.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571270.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I'm actually quite excited having read the article. The changes to the combat that they've mentioned sound intriguing and may potentially make combat a more tactical affair as opposed to the final editions obsession with minimizing frontage and abusing deathstar units.

    The magic rules sound like they're more in line with how psychic abilities are treated in 10th edition 40K; being abilities and tricks that you pull of in various phases (movement, shooting, combat) instead of in a dedicated magic phase. How they treat casting and dispelling will determine the usefulness and how fun I think it will be; 1 spell per level per turn for example or something different. It does sound like they're trying to veer away from army destroying spells like Plague or flames of the phoenix and the tactical rock-paper-scissors that could screw people over if you didn't bring enough anit-magic along and found yourself fighting a level 4 and two level 2 wizards at 2000pts for example. Personally I'd love to see the different faction's mages and wizards focusing on different ways to buff their army based on their faction's character.

    Releasing it late this year could be expensive for me, with epic in August and Tyranids in the autumn to budget for. I think next year would be safer for me ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571289.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571289.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     KidCthulhu wrote:
    Anyone else notice a distinct lack of moment trays? Will units often reform shape like in Clan War?


    It has nothing to do with the gameplay, they often use units without movement trays when they do display pictures. It was the same with old versions of Warhammer Battle when you looked at the illustrations of games in the rulebook.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571292.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571292.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Andykp wrote:
    This game isn’t even out yet and it’s got the feel of a neckbeardy historical game where you are going to get comments that that style of armour didn’t exist in the setting and all that just like HH has gone. Really puts me off sadly, I might not be able to resist orc boar boyz though…..


    If you are going to have a game based around a setting with specific periods and lore - not bothering to care about it is IMO a BAD thing. Its not like Warhammer sells based on the gameplay.

    They should be telling us about the period, talking about the various claimiants for the throne, dropping in the odd short story (they do them for mere campaigns in AOS) not just

    "Yeah Er... here is a few old models we chucked on a table and yeah we are like writing some rules or something...ermm its gonna be great" that will do right boss?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571318.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571318.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    If you want historical accuracy to supersede that you are going to end up disappointed.

    Plus its not that hard to remove "KS" from the models GW sells.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571325.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571325.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors Coming from lotr this was pretty off putting for me, because there magic is more in a rare supporting role usually. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571326.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571326.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Grail Seeker wrote:
    If you remember right, when the game was first announced the objective was to bring forth a game so people could use their old armies.

    If you want historical accuracy to supersede that you are going to end up disappointed.

    Plus its not that hard to remove "KS" from the models GW sells.


    So then they were incredably stupid to set in a older period were they not? set it ten years before the End Times - no has to mess about with their minis

    THEY choose to set in a specific time period which is radically different to the normal one they used....if they then can;t be bothered to make the slighest effort to use it....well FK them]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571327.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571327.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Geifer wrote:


    I don't know how GW plans to keep another extensive set of miniature ranges in production,


    I don't think they do, honestly. They'll keep a core selection of kits around, but I have a feeling this will work more like MESBG and have a rotating range.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571336.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571336.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mr Morden wrote:
    Grail Seeker wrote:
    If you remember right, when the game was first announced the objective was to bring forth a game so people could use their old armies.

    If you want historical accuracy to supersede that you are going to end up disappointed.

    Plus its not that hard to remove "KS" from the models GW sells.


    So then they were incredably stupid to set in a older period were they not? set it ten years before the End Times - no has to mess about with their minis


    I agree that setting it slightly before WFB 8E would have been a far better move because it allows WFB and AoS to exist in 2 separate timelines and mitigate some of the hostility towards the End Times.
    As it is, it feels very much like we are seeing the Horus Heresy where everyone is wearing Mk7 and driving Razorbacks. I don't understand why you would try to tie 2 incompatible objectives, namely selling a historical setting AND contemporary models.

    EDIT: Also in my analogy, the Traitors are still plastered in Loyalist iconography. And we've decided not to include Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Salamanders, Space Wolves or Thousand Sons on the basis that they are mangled before the setting really gets going and they probably won't contribute much in the grand scheme of things...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571344.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571344.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Mozzamanx wrote:
     Mr Morden wrote:
    Grail Seeker wrote:
    If you remember right, when the game was first announced the objective was to bring forth a game so people could use their old armies.

    If you want historical accuracy to supersede that you are going to end up disappointed.

    Plus its not that hard to remove "KS" from the models GW sells.


    So then they were incredably stupid to set in a older period were they not? set it ten years before the End Times - no has to mess about with their minis


    I agree that setting it slightly before WFB 8E would have been a far better move because it allows WFB and AoS to exist in 2 separate timelines and mitigate some of the hostility towards the End Times.
    As it is, it feels very much like we are seeing the Horus Heresy where everyone is wearing Mk7 and driving Razorbacks. I don't understand why you would try to tie 2 incompatible objectives, namely selling a historical setting AND contemporary models.


    I think its a mixture of lack of internal communication, laziness and likely moving objectives - as you say it just seems stupid to Choose to focuss on a different historical period but then do not use it and just use the old models from a different period.... ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571354.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571354.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Mozzamanx wrote:
    I have concerns. In no particular order:

    - Why does the Empire army have a War Altar, given that it's built after the Great War? Its anachronistic to the setting. The model has the words 'EMPEROR KARL FRANZ' emblazoned on the side.
    - Demigryph Knights obviously there, again rehashing the previous comments about Sigmarite imagery. I also see the Champion wielding the sword option, which again has 'Karl Franz' printed on it.
    - Old Stone Trolls are extremely surprising given that I took the Rockgut Troggoths to be a spiritual successor. That immediately opens the door to maintaining old WFB variants of Chaos Warriors, Saurus, Undead etc., which is potentially a significant amount of baggage.
    - The High Elves have models from the IoB, which is strange because they share sprues with the Skaven half who we've just been told aren't part of the narrative. Is IoB coming back anyway, or have the sculpts been recut somehow?
    - Those Orc Boys were old in 8E and personally, were a major contributor to me not owning any Orc Boys in 8E. Now they're being resold in an environment where I can get Avatars of War alternatives. A complete non-starter for me and I was already building an Orc army. I suspect that anyone holding a merchant license is about to make an absolute killing if the competition is 6E-era plastics at 2023 prices.
    - The resource planning of power vs dispel dice is a major part of the fun in magic, so I'm extremely sceptical about such a fundamental change.
    - I think more detail on the fighting rank would have been nice, because that just sets off alarm bells. The minimal information in the article just makes me think deathstars again but wide instead of deep.

    Even more pessimistic than I was before.


    These are clearly the legacy/"legends" index style armies that will be available upon launch so players can use their existing collections, rather than the new armies they will be updating as part of the continued development and support of the game.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571383.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571383.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
     lord_blackfang wrote:
     Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
    the wizards tower that looked excellent except for the skulls


    Do you have any idea how little that narrows it down?




    Ignoring the skull joke, I'm pretty sure that there was only one wizards tower (skullvane manse), unless I've forgotten one? The Warmaster one doesn't count


    Witchfate Tor, Dreadstone Blight, Deathknell Watch

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571386.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571386.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    They way they changed it up in 40k 10th is quite lackluster, so I hope they have something more interactive in mind for Fantasy despite the announced change. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571399.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571399.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mr Morden wrote:


    So then they were incredably stupid to set in a older period were they not? set it ten years before the End Times - no has to mess about with their minis



    I would say no. It wasn't stupid to move the setting back in time. If you did it 10 years before the end times you have no where to grow into. In the setting they chose they have breathing room to make a lot of new models if there proves to be a market on top of selling the old - New King and Lords in Bretonnia, new dwarf thanes, new models of people fighting for the throne of the empire etc. And if it proves profitable you can advance the setting and eventually get to Magnus the Pious which would be very popular I imagine.

    Besides if you set the setting 10 years before the End Times the same people angry about gunpowder in the Old World would be angry that there is no point because the setting has a definitive ending.

    Its not like retcons are a foreign concept to warhammer fans anyways.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571402.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571402.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Skywave wrote:
    I myself always enjoyed the mini game that was the magic phase. Dice pool, deck of cards, whatever, I liked that most of the time!

    They way they changed it up in 40k 10th is quite lackluster, so I hope they have something more interactive in mind for Fantasy despite the announced change.


    Imho the best version was the one that was published in WD during 6th edition as 'More interactive magic' where you could add additional power/dispel dice if you succeeded and the enemy succeeded in dispelling; that got the right tug-of-war feeling without being overly complicated. It also produced memorable moments of your scroll caddy goading the enemy wizard lord into overextending into a disastrous mishap roll ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571403.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571403.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Queektail wrote:
    I admit the negativity on display is starting to get a bit irritating now, especially as we don't know all that much about rules, release date, etc. I'd much rather see positive discussion rather than all the doom and gloom.


    Yeah, it's not great, but as an early critic of GW's marketing approach I do find it fascinating to see just how much hostility GW manages to foster with the way they're doing things.

     Platuan4th wrote:
     Geifer wrote:


    I don't know how GW plans to keep another extensive set of miniature ranges in production,


    I don't think they do, honestly. They'll keep a core selection of kits around, but I have a feeling this will work more like MESBG and have a rotating range.


    I'm aware rotation in Middle Earth exists, but I've not enough paid attention to it to have much of an idea how it works. The idea doesn't sound all that great to me, getting Tomb Kings back but not being able to buy a portion of the kits at my leisure. It doesn't seem functional, or customer friendly for that matter. Not that that means anything to GW.

     Skywave wrote:
    I myself always enjoyed the mini game that was the magic phase. Dice pool, deck of cards, whatever, I liked that most of the time!

    They way they changed it up in 40k 10th is quite lackluster, so I hope they have something more interactive in mind for Fantasy despite the announced change.


    I liked the magic phase, by and large. That always was an entertaining part of our games. Certainly in need of tweaks, but... well, we have no real idea how dropping it actually turns out, but it does feel excessive if it follows 40k 10th ed (or 3rd ed for that matter) sensibilities.

    Only thing that I immediately thought it might prevent:

    Me: I'd like to use my Casket...
    My opponent: *pulls out Scroll of Nope* I'm sure you would.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571413.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571413.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Skywave wrote:
    I myself always enjoyed the mini game that was the magic phase. Dice pool, deck of cards, whatever, I liked that most of the time!

    They way they changed it up in 40k 10th is quite lackluster, so I hope they have something more interactive in mind for Fantasy despite the announced change.


    I hated the number of games decided by a single casting....]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571419.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571419.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     KidCthulhu wrote:
    Anyone else notice a distinct lack of moment trays? Will units often reform shape like in Clan War?


    That was cool. And really cumbersome ^^]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571440.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571440.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    We have two main universes/settings - our dark, gritty fantasy sci-fi universe, which encompasses ‘Warhammer 40,000’, ‘Warhammer The
    Horus Heresy’ and ‘Necromunda’, and our unique fantasy setting that includes ‘Warhammer Age of Sigmar’, ‘Blood Bowl’ (albeit a tongue
    in cheek parody) and, the soon to be released, ‘Warhammer The Old World’. We believe our IP to be among the best in the w


    "soon" can mean a lot here but I would at least expect something until the next years report]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571446.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571446.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Geifer wrote:
     Platuan4th wrote:
     Geifer wrote:


    I don't know how GW plans to keep another extensive set of miniature ranges in production,


    I don't think they do, honestly. They'll keep a core selection of kits around, but I have a feeling this will work more like MESBG and have a rotating range.

    I'm aware rotation in Middle Earth exists, but I've not enough paid attention to it to have much of an idea how it works. The idea doesn't sound all that great to me, getting Tomb Kings back but not being able to buy a portion of the kits at my leisure. It doesn't seem functional, or customer friendly for that matter. Not that that means anything to GW.

    Many people seem to assume that all returning kits will be available at launch, alongside new resin/plastic kits. Given the status of TOW as a specialist game, and the sheer number of returning kits, I'd be surprised if it doesn't work like MESBG. I can't see how it could work otherwise.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571447.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571447.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Grail Seeker wrote:
    If you did it 10 years before the end times you have no where to grow into. In the setting they chose they have breathing room to make a lot of new models if there proves to be a market on top of selling the old - New King and Lords in Bretonnia, new dwarf thanes, new models of people fighting for the throne of the empire etc. And if it proves profitable you can advance the setting and eventually get to Magnus the Pious which would be very popular I imagine.

    Besides if you set the setting 10 years before the End Times the same people angry about gunpowder in the Old World would be angry that there is no point because the setting has a definitive ending.

    Its not like retcons are a foreign concept to warhammer fans anyways.


    Surely there's a way around this by introducing plot points that prevent the End Times from being inevitable?
    If Archaon fails to get one of his artefacts, or Be'lakor does some nonsense to interrupt his ascension, or maybe he has a rival to overcome first?
    Maybe we go back to the Storm of Chaos timeline instead of the End Times and Archaon can get pushed back to Brass Keep, with a less hammy ending.

    Or even some butterfly effect event that subtly but definitively makes the existing timeline divergent, however small that might be.
    Does the world still end if Nagash was already awake and active, without needing ET1 to kill off Nehekhara?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571477.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571477.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW doesn't want the End Times to be prevented at all.
    The End Times allowed GW to make AoS and no matter how salty WHFB fans are, AoS is never going away. One linear timeline keeps things simple.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571478.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571478.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Gert wrote:
    Except GW doesn't want the End Times to be prevented at all.
    The End Times allowed GW to make AoS and no matter how salty WHFB fans are, AoS is never going away. One linear timeline keeps things simple.


    Multiple worlds and timelines are part of the ongoing lore - have been for a LONG time - alt universes like Blood Bowl exist. But agreed yeah they want to keep the link to AOS - cool - I like AOS

    I still think they have shot themselves in the foot but maybe I am completely wrong

    * No "new" factions for years despite working on them with CA for years - entire 8th ed army book made for Cathay but hey we don;t need to do anything with that.....us Whales don;t want stuff thats never been released for the game....
    * Super expensive resin models of stuff we already have rather than era specific lords and heroes - so rather than Bretonnian Standard bearer - it should have been a person (that you can also use as a generic Standard) - same with Tomb Kings. Add some lore, generate some interest in the era you are trying to sell....
    * Just re-using models that make no sense and going -yeah whatever....]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571487.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571487.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Gert wrote:
    Except GW doesn't want the End Times to be prevented at all.
    The End Times allowed GW to make AoS and no matter how salty WHFB fans are, AoS is never going away. One linear timeline keeps things simple.


    In theory, they have unlimited free passes by going 'The Warp did it, it's an alternative reality, did you know that there's infinity of them?' but GW has said, uncharacteristically for them, that the End Times are a hard fact, there is no getting around them, and the community has to deal with it. Musings to the contrary are, at this point, the equivalent to sticking your fingers in your ears and going 'Neeneer neeneer, i cannot heeeear youuuuu'. If they ever want to re-negotiate on this, it will be very, very far from now, after a long period on just refusing to comment on the question.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571488.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571488.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mr Morden wrote:
     Gert wrote:
    Except GW doesn't want the End Times to be prevented at all.
    The End Times allowed GW to make AoS and no matter how salty WHFB fans are, AoS is never going away. One linear timeline keeps things simple.


    Multiple worlds and timelines are part of the ongoing lore - have been for a LONG time - alt universes like Blood Bowl exist. But agreed yeah they want to keep the link to AOS - cool - I like AOS


    Yeah, multiple timelines and universes have been part of WHFB for a long time: the original ending for Enemy Within, the original plan for Tamurkhan, the bubble universes shown in Giantslayer, etc.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571491.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571491.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    "we have to stop this future from happening, it all starts in the empire of man"

    and thats been my head cannon before every game of WHFB in the last 10 years (or has it been longer than that)

    I should image ToW will just focus on the time its set in and never mention the elephant in the lore that is the end times. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571508.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571508.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mr Morden wrote:
     Gert wrote:
    Except GW doesn't want the End Times to be prevented at all.
    The End Times allowed GW to make AoS and no matter how salty WHFB fans are, AoS is never going away. One linear timeline keeps things simple.


    Multiple worlds and timelines are part of the ongoing lore - have been for a LONG time - alt universes like Blood Bowl exist. But agreed yeah they want to keep the link to AOS - cool - I like AOS

    I still think they have shot themselves in the foot but maybe I am completely wrong

    * No "new" factions for years despite working on them with CA for years - entire 8th ed army book made for Cathay but hey we don;t need to do anything with that.....us Whales don;t want stuff thats never been released for the game....
    * Super expensive resin models of stuff we already have rather than era specific lords and heroes - so rather than Bretonnian Standard bearer - it should have been a person (that you can also use as a generic Standard) - same with Tomb Kings. Add some lore, generate some interest in the era you are trying to sell....
    * Just re-using models that make no sense and going -yeah whatever....


    I still think it's because they are afraid of anything possibly "invalidating" AOS to the part of the AOS player base that switched over solely because it was the only GW current supported Fantasy game.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571513.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571513.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Just Tony wrote:
     Mr Morden wrote:
     Gert wrote:
    Except GW doesn't want the End Times to be prevented at all.
    The End Times allowed GW to make AoS and no matter how salty WHFB fans are, AoS is never going away. One linear timeline keeps things simple.


    Multiple worlds and timelines are part of the ongoing lore - have been for a LONG time - alt universes like Blood Bowl exist. But agreed yeah they want to keep the link to AOS - cool - I like AOS

    I still think they have shot themselves in the foot but maybe I am completely wrong

    * No "new" factions for years despite working on them with CA for years - entire 8th ed army book made for Cathay but hey we don;t need to do anything with that.....us Whales don;t want stuff thats never been released for the game....
    * Super expensive resin models of stuff we already have rather than era specific lords and heroes - so rather than Bretonnian Standard bearer - it should have been a person (that you can also use as a generic Standard) - same with Tomb Kings. Add some lore, generate some interest in the era you are trying to sell....
    * Just re-using models that make no sense and going -yeah whatever....


    I still think it's because they are afraid of anything possibly "invalidating" AOS to the part of the AOS player base that switched over solely because it was the only GW current supported Fantasy game.


    Maybe - but then they should actually support the "new" older in time setting - tell us about it...make us want to know more....

    I don't get them - they have tomb kings in AOS lore, are bringing them back for the Old World but don't want to sell them for both systems? As long as the models sell - its good?

    Same with Cathay and Kislev models - they would be fine in AOS....

    But instead they want to split resources....

     Tamereth wrote:
    Teclis slumps to the ground, sweating from the strain of his vision quest.

    "we have to stop this future from happening, it all starts in the empire of man"

    and thats been my head cannon before every game of WHFB in the last 10 years (or has it been longer than that)

    I should image ToW will just focus on the time its set in and never mention the elephant in the lore that is the end times.


    Teclis considers if the best move is to trust in Mannfred doing the right thing whilst sending his niece to him to be tortured and sacrificed and goes...no probably not. Lets just chop that specific vampire up and see what else we can do...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571552.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571552.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I hope that magic still has the push/pull element of dispell dice etc. I expect we'll just use power dice across a whole turn, like a turn by turn form of command points.

    I hope the images they shared represent unit sizes. 50+ units may look cool but they're expensive, time consuming to paint and don't represent "realism" of ranked combat any more than a unit of 15 does. To my mind each model has to represent 20 individuals or so to reflect an actual melee era battle.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571559.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571559.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Grail Seeker wrote:
    If you remember right, when the game was first announced the objective was to bring forth a game so people could use their old armies.

    If that had been their goal, it failed right off the bat by rebasing everything.

    It wasn't really the goal, though. The short term goal was (IMO) merely to bring back those Fantasy players who don't like AoS. The long term goal is to sell them new models, because that's the ultimate goal of every GW game. I would expect that any anachronisms in the initial range will eventually be replaced with more appropriate new (and more expensive) models.



    Speaking of rebasing, that photo confirms for me that moving to larger bases is largely a mistake. Most of those units look way too spread out. I'll be sticking to 20mm for my human and smaller models.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571585.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571585.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Gert wrote:
    Except GW doesn't want the End Times to be prevented at all.
    The End Times allowed GW to make AoS and no matter how salty WHFB fans are, AoS is never going away. One linear timeline keeps things simple.

    Spoiler:



    There, sorted.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571588.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571588.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Gert wrote:
    Except GW doesn't want the End Times to be prevented at all.
    The End Times allowed GW to make AoS and no matter how salty WHFB fans are, AoS is never going away. One linear timeline keeps things simple.


    Come on. This is ridiculous reasoning. Retconning away the End Times won’t make AoS go away. There’s no reason they can’t have both AOS and a non-End Times Old World in the age of the multiverse trope. We can have AOS without the sad need to keep WHFB’s setting dead and buried.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571598.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571598.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
     Gert wrote:
    Except GW doesn't want the End Times to be prevented at all.
    The End Times allowed GW to make AoS and no matter how salty WHFB fans are, AoS is never going away. One linear timeline keeps things simple.


    Come on. This is ridiculous reasoning. Retconning away the End Times won’t make AoS go away. There’s no reason they can’t have both AOS and a non-End Times Old World in the age of the multiverse trope. We can have AOS without the sad need to keep WHFB’s setting dead and buried.

    Indeed, in a world where both AoS and Bloodbowl exist, it wouldn't be hard to have WHFB in another separate timeline.

    I'm not sure it's really necessary, but it would have been a viable option.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571599.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571599.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571600.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571600.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     NinthMusketeer wrote:
    I recall one of the preview articles laying out pretty explicitly that they weren't going to touch the End Times at all? It read to me like they were pretty definitively trying to shut down talk of alternate-timeline stuff. Could be misremembering though.



    Just one more failure of GW’s marketing approach to TOW. “Don’t worry, folks. This new game comes pre-dead! Everything dies and it’s all meaningless! What a fun escape from life!”]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571601.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571601.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     BobtheInquisitor wrote:

    Just one more failure of GW’s marketing approach to TOW. “Don’t worry, folks. This new game comes pre-dead! Everything dies and it’s all meaningless! What a fun escape from life!”

    I mean, that logic could be applied to any setting, though. Sooner or later, everyone dies. Every setting has an end date, regardless of whether or not it's been written down. The point of a setting is to give your games some background now, not to ensure the eternal survival of your army's fictional homeland. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571604.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571604.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I’m also opposed the the very idea of going back in time for a game set in a specific conflict or period. If I was interested in historical gaming, I wouldn’t look to Warhammer Fantasy.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571607.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571607.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
    An implied end is very different from an explicit “everything burned and the ashes were salted” ending. The sandbox feels closed in a definitive way that really can’t be compared to franchises with open ended natures.

    Why, though?

    I can see how it might make a difference if you're actually playing in the End Times with the knowledge of how it's going to end regardless of what happens, although even then the game you're playing is about what happens now, not what happens at the end of the story arc.

    But when you wind the setting back a couple of thousand years, how it all ends way off in the future is irrelevant. The setting's eventual preordained ending has no impact on what is happening in this particular part of the timeline, and whether or not that ending exists your game has no impact on the setting. The 'sandbox' is exactly the same in either case.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571620.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571620.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors PC titles.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571630.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571630.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     RustyNumber wrote:
    I still think the only reason TOW exists is the insane success of the Total Warhammer PC titles.


    I mean, yes? They pretty much admitted that when they talked about designing TOW Kislev models when they were designing Kislev for TWWIII.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571631.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571631.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     insaniak wrote:
     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
    An implied end is very different from an explicit “everything burned and the ashes were salted” ending. The sandbox feels closed in a definitive way that really can’t be compared to franchises with open ended natures.

    Why, though?

    I can see how it might make a difference if you're actually playing in the End Times with the knowledge of how it's going to end regardless of what happens, although even then the game you're playing is about what happens now, not what happens at the end of the story arc.

    But when you wind the setting back a couple of thousand years, how it all ends way off in the future is irrelevant. The setting's eventual preordained ending has no impact on what is happening in this particular part of the timeline, and whether or not that ending exists your game has no impact on the setting. The 'sandbox' is exactly the same in either case.


    Because the game itself is uninteresting. The setting is the draw. I have bought over the years at least one box from each faction, and whole armies for half of them, not to play the game but entirely on the strength of the setting as a living thing. I like creating my own dwarf hold, Empire city, High Elf colony, etc.. I like reading up on obscure bits of fluff that expand the universe, finding a place for my own forces to fit in. I’m not interested in the settled past or a setting that exists only for one more day; I want a sandbox where I can build my own dudes, read some novels, and wonder. With the Old World blown up, there’s nothing to inspire wonder. Cold speculation, maybe, but clinical like a post-mortem.

    I don’t know how to explain it to you if you aren’t inspired by the same things. The finality of a setting’s destruction affects enjoyment of the whole setting. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571636.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571636.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
    I don’t know how to explain it to you if you aren’t inspired by the same things. The finality of a setting’s destruction affects enjoyment of the whole setting.

    I think that's what puzzles me the most here... Because it sounds like we are indeed inspired by the same things, but you find knowing the ending to be limiting, while I look at all the space in between now and that ending and imagine how to fill it in.

    The Old World isn't dealing with the settled past. We have only very broad strokes about the events of that time period and everything leading from there to the End Times. There is still plenty of room for inserting your own creations into the mix.

    Hell, if the ending is the problem, then just ignore it. Bung your own Fassbender and McAvoy proxies in there and assume that the future is really just more of a set of guidelines than an actual rule. Sure, the setting was destroyed... but it hasn't happened yet. Maybe it won't.


    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571639.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571639.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors CL Werner novels, that will indeed be my headcanon. But it’s still an obstacle to overcome that doesn’t need to be there in the first place.

    Learning about the last of the Old World mattered to me in terms of giving insight into the present and near future. I loved the build up to Storm of Chaos, and even the little novellas for Storm of Magic—but I read the Age of Heroes (or whatever it was called) more to sift for juicy fluff nuggets than because I wanted to experience Sigmar’s life or the Sundering or Nagash’s rise. With the future dead, traveling to the last feels like Langoliers, where the past is tasteless and lifeless.

    I wouldn’t want to make my own Space Marine Chapter if I knew some guy in a suit had already abridged its future just so I’d have to buy a new product.

    Why should the burden rest on me to make the setting breathe again and not the company that killed it in the first place? ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571644.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571644.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571646.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571646.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mr_Rose wrote:
    You should ask Horus Heresy players how they feel about their setting having a built in end date. Especially since it’s one that will likely eventually see the tabletop.


    Asserts facts not in evidence.
    Far more likely that they will keep dragging things out longer and longer, asymptotically approaching the final battle between Horus and the Emperor, but never actually reaching it.

    Kind of like the "last" book of G. R. R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571661.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571661.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mr_Rose wrote:
    You should ask Horus Heresy players how they feel about their setting having a built in end date. Especially since it’s one that will likely eventually see the tabletop.
    technically their current campaign has an end goal with the siege of terra
    their setting continues longer and does not end with Horus death as the universe still exists and the Legions still fight the Imperium for another 1000-2000 years as they are

    so even with HH even an end, it does not blow up the world and replaces it with something different
    your Death Guard still exists in 40k, while the Nuln from TOW does not in AoS

    hence why the blowing up of the world is seen as unnecessary, you could have had the very same setting for AoS with the EndTimes just opening the realm gates adding a time skip of 10k years and have the Age of Sigmar with the old Warhammer world still existing as one upon many and having Karaz-A-Karak or Altdorf being a City of Sigmar

    the settings are a little different here as there is clear cut between TOW and AOS that is not there in HH and 40k.
    in addition, for HH there were dedicated models of the past released and not just "those models are not longer usable in 40k, so they are moved to HH"

    Horus Heresy would not have started well when the 2nd Editon would have just seen old 40k kits available instead of dedicated HH models]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571675.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571675.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:

    in addition, for HH there were dedicated models of the past released and not just "those models are not longer usable in 40k, so they are moved to HH"

    HH was built from FWs Space Marine range. There were new models released such as Legion specific units and Primarchs but the majority of the range was comprised of kits brought out for previous FW campaigns such as the Badab War (which many consider the spiritual precursor to HH). This range eventually grew but the core of most armies was made up of kits released prior to the first HH game book.
    The newer version of HH increased accessibility by moving the game from FW as its primary source of models, something TOW doesn't have to do because GW already has the catalogue of models. It was primary able to capitalise on the untapped source of revenue that was people who like Space Marines but hate resin kits and reselling kits to existing customers who wanted an alternative to heavy resin bricks on their tabletops. Combine that with good value boxes like the Age of Darkness box or even just the Legion Tacticals and weapon upgrades, and HH had a good starting point.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571685.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571685.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors HH had dedicated models that fit the specific setting right from the start and never got re-branded 40k models as main source

    that is exactly what people expected TOW to have but does not get]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571694.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571694.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    so HH had dedicated models that fit the specific setting right from the start and never got re-branded 40k models as main source

    that is exactly what people expected TOW to have but does not get

    You mean like the models that have been shown so far? Because that's how HH started. FW didn't just release every single Primarch and new unit in Book 1 in one go, it took time for that to happen.
    Deimos vehicles, Mk2b Land Raiders, Phobos Land Raiders, all the Marine armour patterns, and Contemptors were all not HH original products.
    The major difference between TOW and HH is that one has Space Marines which GW will always be able to sell.
    HH also didn't start as its own game but rather a supplement to regular 40k at the time. It wasn't until 8th Ed that HH became a distinct game with the Age of Darkness rulebook and even then it was basically a cleaned up version of 40k.
    Comparisons between the two are extremely unfair.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571698.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571698.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Me, for example. The only WFB army I kept is Dark Elves.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571704.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571704.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Grail Seeker wrote:
     Mr Morden wrote:


    So then they were incredably stupid to set in a older period were they not? set it ten years before the End Times - no has to mess about with their minis



    I would say no. It wasn't stupid to move the setting back in time. If you did it 10 years before the end times you have no where to grow into. In the setting they chose they have breathing room to make a lot of new models if there proves to be a market on top of selling the old - New King and Lords in Bretonnia, new dwarf thanes, new models of people fighting for the throne of the empire etc. And if it proves profitable you can advance the setting and eventually get to Magnus the Pious which would be very popular I imagine.

    Besides if you set the setting 10 years before the End Times the same people angry about gunpowder in the Old World would be angry that there is no point because the setting has a definitive ending.

    Its not like retcons are a foreign concept to warhammer fans anyways.


    People angry about gunpowder in The Old World time period are just incorrect anyway based on all the previous fluff. The Empire has had it for centuries at this point. Dwarfs for longer. Different tech but the Steam-Tanks are also rolling around and have been for a while. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571714.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571714.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Gert wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    so HH had dedicated models that fit the specific setting right from the start and never got re-branded 40k models as main source

    that is exactly what people expected TOW to have but does not get

    You mean like the models that have been shown so far? Because that's how HH started. FW didn't just release every single Primarch and new unit in Book 1 in one go, it took time for that to happen.
    Deimos vehicles, Mk2b Land Raiders, Phobos Land Raiders, all the Marine armour patterns, and Contemptors were all not HH original products.
    The major difference between TOW and HH is that one has Space Marines which GW will always be able to sell.
    HH also didn't start as its own game but rather a supplement to regular 40k at the time. It wasn't until 8th Ed that HH became a distinct game with the Age of Darkness rulebook and even then it was basically a cleaned up version of 40k.
    Comparisons between the two are extremely unfair.

    No that were not original HH models but those were "Space Marine from the past" or "previous design" models

    no one is saying that HH released with all the current line up and things like the Mk2 LR are not re-branded 40k models used in a new game that is set 10k years in the past but were made as 10k years old designs to be used in 40k

    if TOW would start by using an existing FW model for Magnus the Pious, which was originally made to be used in Warhammer Fantasy, than you could compare it
    but what we get is the old non-Primaris Marneus Calgar as Horus Heresy area Ultramarines Captain and non-Primaris Landspeeders as heresy Jetbikes, and I doubt that HH would have done attracted players if this was the only models it got

    the models were not originally designed for a new game, but they were designed as relics from the past which actually fits the Horus Heresy setting
    and this is what TOW does not have at all, it has a new dedicated setting but does not get models matching that setting

    so there is no real point in starting the game in the year 2200 instead of 2500 if there is nothing else in the back.
    because a 2200 campaign book could have been released later in combination with new models as well, no need to do it now without support]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571731.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571731.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Gert wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    so HH had dedicated models that fit the specific setting right from the start and never got re-branded 40k models as main source

    that is exactly what people expected TOW to have but does not get

    You mean like the models that have been shown so far? Because that's how HH started. FW didn't just release every single Primarch and new unit in Book 1 in one go, it took time for that to happen.
    Deimos vehicles, Mk2b Land Raiders, Phobos Land Raiders, all the Marine armour patterns, and Contemptors were all not HH original products.
    The major difference between TOW and HH is that one has Space Marines which GW will always be able to sell.
    HH also didn't start as its own game but rather a supplement to regular 40k at the time. It wasn't until 8th Ed that HH became a distinct game with the Age of Darkness rulebook and even then it was basically a cleaned up version of 40k.
    Comparisons between the two are extremely unfair.


    You can't really blame people for the comparison when GW led their series of preview articles with this:

    GW wrote:The Old World is to Warhammer Age of Sigmar, as the Horus Heresy is to Warhammer 40,000. The bedrock of lore from which mortals rose to godhood and legends were forged. And like the Horus Heresy, seeing those mythic heroes in action has an undeniable appeal, as does re-creating the glorious armies of a previous epoch – an exciting proposition for hobbyists and gamers alike. And now, we have a dedicated team in the Warhammer Studio beginning the work of bringing all that awesome back to the tabletop.


    Quote from this article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/15/old-world-new-warhammer/

    GW made the comparison and not just about lore, but also recreation on the tabletop. We've only really seen concrete ideas of how The Old World as a product is going to look, and even that is spotty for now. Prior to that, we had more than three years in which that was about the only thing we had to go on. That has a way of shaping expectations and if GW was careless enough to suggest it and not follow through with it, the issue isn't customers somehow drawing the wrong conclusions.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571735.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571735.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    It's an apples and oranges comparison, and we should call it as such.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571749.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571749.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Albertorius wrote:
    I think that the fact that the new game is going to feature some of the classic armies but not other has the potential to affect more people.

    Me, for example. The only WFB army I kept is Dark Elves.


    Dark Elves are still getting an army list.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571789.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571789.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors AoS scenarios directly inspired from stories in their past, like War of the Beard. So I do understand people not getting into TOW for the same reason.

    I liked reading the background, though. I can also see the enjoyment of the pure collection part with painting an army "as it was". Just not keen on replaying battles with it. I'd rather tell my own story with my battles, while I do not know how it will end.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571791.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571791.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    JimmyWolf87 wrote:
    Grail Seeker wrote:
     Mr Morden wrote:


    So then they were incredably stupid to set in a older period were they not? set it ten years before the End Times - no has to mess about with their minis



    I would say no. It wasn't stupid to move the setting back in time. If you did it 10 years before the end times you have no where to grow into. In the setting they chose they have breathing room to make a lot of new models if there proves to be a market on top of selling the old - New King and Lords in Bretonnia, new dwarf thanes, new models of people fighting for the throne of the empire etc. And if it proves profitable you can advance the setting and eventually get to Magnus the Pious which would be very popular I imagine.

    Besides if you set the setting 10 years before the End Times the same people angry about gunpowder in the Old World would be angry that there is no point because the setting has a definitive ending.

    Its not like retcons are a foreign concept to warhammer fans anyways.


    People angry about gunpowder in The Old World time period are just incorrect anyway based on all the previous fluff. The Empire has had it for centuries at this point. Dwarfs for longer. Different tech but the Steam-Tanks are also rolling around and have been for a while.


    Sigh...That was NOT what I was saying AT ALL - the issues were having specfically units and people from 2500 IC when they could be doing stuff from the actual period they choose to use- as I expelained at some length.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571793.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571793.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    As an example I feel that way about Game of Thrones (the books might be different, cope cope cope etc). The whole world seems a lot less interesting because you go from "anything could happen" to "no, I know what happens, and it sucks."

    But as said, I'm much more concerned about the game as a game - the rules and the models they want to sell. The messaging there continues to be all over the place. If we get a rulebook that's basically 9th edition, plus a few forgeworld minis, then it possibly won't be the worst thing in the world. Not sure I love ditching the magic phase entirely, but would have to see how it works.

    Really though the question's going to be why its taken 4 years to produce.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571799.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571799.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mr Morden wrote:
    JimmyWolf87 wrote:
    Grail Seeker wrote:
     Mr Morden wrote:


    So then they were incredably stupid to set in a older period were they not? set it ten years before the End Times - no has to mess about with their minis



    I would say no. It wasn't stupid to move the setting back in time. If you did it 10 years before the end times you have no where to grow into. In the setting they chose they have breathing room to make a lot of new models if there proves to be a market on top of selling the old - New King and Lords in Bretonnia, new dwarf thanes, new models of people fighting for the throne of the empire etc. And if it proves profitable you can advance the setting and eventually get to Magnus the Pious which would be very popular I imagine.

    Besides if you set the setting 10 years before the End Times the same people angry about gunpowder in the Old World would be angry that there is no point because the setting has a definitive ending.

    Its not like retcons are a foreign concept to warhammer fans anyways.


    People angry about gunpowder in The Old World time period are just incorrect anyway based on all the previous fluff. The Empire has had it for centuries at this point. Dwarfs for longer. Different tech but the Steam-Tanks are also rolling around and have been for a while.


    Sigh...That was NOT what I was saying AT ALL - the issues were having specfically units and people from 2500 IC when they could be doing stuff from the actual period they choose to use- as I expelained at some length.


    Eh? I wasn't disagreeing with you.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571803.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571803.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
     insaniak wrote:
     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
    An implied end is very different from an explicit “everything burned and the ashes were salted” ending. The sandbox feels closed in a definitive way that really can’t be compared to franchises with open ended natures.

    Why, though?

    I can see how it might make a difference if you're actually playing in the End Times with the knowledge of how it's going to end regardless of what happens, although even then the game you're playing is about what happens now, not what happens at the end of the story arc.

    But when you wind the setting back a couple of thousand years, how it all ends way off in the future is irrelevant. The setting's eventual preordained ending has no impact on what is happening in this particular part of the timeline, and whether or not that ending exists your game has no impact on the setting. The 'sandbox' is exactly the same in either case.


    Because the game itself is uninteresting. The setting is the draw. I have bought over the years at least one box from each faction, and whole armies for half of them, not to play the game but entirely on the strength of the setting as a living thing. I like creating my own dwarf hold, Empire city, High Elf colony, etc.. I like reading up on obscure bits of fluff that expand the universe, finding a place for my own forces to fit in. I’m not interested in the settled past or a setting that exists only for one more day; I want a sandbox where I can build my own dudes, read some novels, and wonder. With the Old World blown up, there’s nothing to inspire wonder. Cold speculation, maybe, but clinical like a post-mortem.

    I don’t know how to explain it to you if you aren’t inspired by the same things. The finality of a setting’s destruction affects enjoyment of the whole setting.


    There's literally thousanas of years you can explore and make?our own guos and heroes and you HAVE to do on on,e specific yeai? Lol.

    Btw. Even if we ignore end times end is same. Chaos wins. Reality busted. Everybody dies. Here. I just ruieed any version of fb and 40k as you now knlw endieg and thus accordieg to you chargent explore it]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571811.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571811.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW will release for the old world. There will still be new models, those models will likely be designed with the Old World in mind rather than the End Times. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571817.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571817.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Tyel wrote:
    I'm not a critical issue for me playing TOW but I can understand people who feel the destruction of the world killed a lot of (potentially all) interest in the setting.

    As an example I feel that way about Game of Thrones (the books might be different, cope cope cope etc). The whole world seems a lot less interesting because you go from "anything could happen" to "no, I know what happens, and it sucks."

    But as said, I'm much more concerned about the game as a game - the rules and the models they want to sell. The messaging there continues to be all over the place. If we get a rulebook that's basically 9th edition, plus a few forgeworld minis, then it possibly won't be the worst thing in the world. Not sure I love ditching the magic phase entirely, but would have to see how it works.

    Really though the question's going to be why its taken 4 years to produce.


    In this case I can believe it's just because it's Forge World/Specialist Games and it's a question of resource allocation. They had a pretty massive plastic budget for Horus Heresy and took the better part of a year to release all the kits. Interestingly Blood Bowl and Necromunda have kind of dried up lately with no new teams for a while and two House vehicles missing respectively, as if they can't get all that stuff designed and produced at the same time. It's part of the reason why I'm having such trouble seeing how GW plans to maintain The Old World as it only adds more models that need to be in production.

    I could see it being a question of The Old World just waiting its turn, instead of difficulty of getting the rules or background written, for instance.

    Let's throw in some Covid delays, because if I don't, someone else is going to bring it up, and it's not that much different from the release schedule of new editions of the main game that get prioritized and all the resources they need to release on time.

    Not that I expect GW to address the question. And if they did, it'd be some variation of "just as planned" anyway.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571822.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571822.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    tneva82 wrote:
    There's literally thousanas of years you can explore and make?our own guos and heroes and you HAVE to do on on,e specific yeai? Lol.

    Btw. Even if we ignore end times end is same. Chaos wins. Reality busted. Everybody dies. Here. I just ruieed any version of fb and 40k as you now knlw endieg and thus accordieg to you chargent explore it


    The "impending doom of the Warhammer world" present in much of the WFB and WFRP background was a mood marker more than any actual threat that would definitively end the setting.

    "Might end one day" ain't the same as "it ended today" as far as the audience's ability to engage with the material is concerned and GW knows that well. Note how both 40k and AoS have clear existential threats, but no clear expiration dates.

    You don't run a setting as a product with the gravestone already inscribed.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571848.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571848.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     His Master's Voice wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
    There's literally thousanas of years you can explore and make?our own guos and heroes and you HAVE to do on on,e specific yeai? Lol.

    Btw. Even if we ignore end times end is same. Chaos wins. Reality busted. Everybody dies. Here. I just ruieed any version of fb and 40k as you now knlw endieg and thus accordieg to you chargent explore it


    The "impending doom of the Warhammer world" present in much of the WFB and WFRP background was a mood marker more than any actual threat that would definitively end the setting.

    "Might end one day" ain't the same as "it ended today" as far as the audience's ability to engage with the material is concerned and GW knows that well. Note how both 40k and AoS have clear existential threats, but no clear expiration dates.

    You don't run a setting as a product with the gravestone already inscribed.


    IMHO it's especially glaring as the stories and books becaming increasingly centered around 'faction exemplars' and legendary characters, and many of them have lifespans long enough to be present in the setting. You know that Malekith's story will end in a certain way, you know that Archaon will be the last Everchosen (and all before him fail) and so on and so on. The characters were used to present and manifest the character and motivations of their faction, and drive the metaplot, and now much of that has lost its appeal because their formerly open-ended plotlines have become 'history' and have a 'canon' ending. It's the difference of having open-ended plot hooks from where you can launch your own stories and campaigns, and being basically forced to play 'alternative histories' - the difference might seem small to some, but for others it matters.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571852.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571852.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Malekith's story hasn't ended. He's still very much alive in AoS, even though the game devs haven't reintroduced him yet (and WHY NOT!? Quit dragging your feet, GW!).

    Vlad and Isabella might be better examples.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571908.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571908.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors AoS is really odd too because he basically rules one whole realm. The Shadow Realm is mostly his, the Daughters of Khain (who feature a lot) are basically one tiny corner.

    I keep getting a feeling that either GW keeps changing their mind; hitting a creative limit; worried that they should just bring back Dark Elves (the whole army IS in AoS barring about 2 hero models and the reaper bolt thrower)]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571922.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571922.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors AoS lore is just fanfiction that can be safely ignored!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571926.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571926.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    bobthe4th wrote:
    Every self respecting Fantasy player knows that the Old World is alive and well and AoS lore is just fanfiction that can be safely ignored!


    ^^^^ this

    and sticking to older Lore and making your own up anyway]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571929.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571929.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    bobthe4th wrote:
    Every self respecting Fantasy player knows that the Old World is alive and well and AoS lore is just fanfiction that can be safely ignored!


    Or you act like a normal person and let people enjoy what they want to enjoy. Hard as that may be for some.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571935.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571935.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     His Master's Voice wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
    There's literally thousanas of years you can explore and make?our own guos and heroes and you HAVE to do on on,e specific yeai? Lol.

    Btw. Even if we ignore end times end is same. Chaos wins. Reality busted. Everybody dies. Here. I just ruieed any version of fb and 40k as you now knlw endieg and thus accordieg to you chargent explore it


    The "impending doom of the Warhammer world" present in much of the WFB and WFRP background was a mood marker more than any actual threat that would definitively end the setting.


    One of my biggest revisionist bugbears is when people claim the WHFB was always going to end and Chaos was always going to win. No they weren't, as you said it was mood music to set the tone, there's every chance that Archaon could have died before even reaching Kislev or that he could have failed in his invasionslike 12 previous everchosens. One of the few mistakes I feel GW has made in it's messaging around TOW (aside from not teaching people how to read articles properly) is insisting on the fact that the End Times will happen. They could have easily taken an approach of 'yes canonically it does but play TOW and create your own future for the WHFB world, if you want to pretend the End Times doesn't happen then go ahead'.

    I for one am absolutely refusing to accept that bs that Malekith is actually the true Phoenix King, while he raids Ulthuan in my conception of the TOW period, just as an example.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571936.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571936.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Londinium wrote:
    They could have easily taken an approach of 'yes canonically it does but play TOW and create your own future for the WHFB world, if you want to pretend the End Times doesn't happen then go ahead'.


    Conversely, why do you need GW to say this?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571940.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571940.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Platuan4th wrote:
     Londinium wrote:
    They could have easily taken an approach of 'yes canonically it does but play TOW and create your own future for the WHFB world, if you want to pretend the End Times doesn't happen then go ahead'.


    Conversely, why do you need GW to say this?


    Practically, you don't need to, but it still matters for some people. It's not a rational belief, but it's a belief that exists nonetheless. 'Your dudes' will never be part of the official story, 'your dudes' will never receive a high production value product specifically displaying them, or a nice novel that shows you their exploits and adventures. It's a bit of a consumerist attitude, but in a hobby context, wanting nice products to consume in peace is a valid request.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571943.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571943.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Londinium wrote:


    One of my biggest revisionist bugbears is when people claim the WHFB was always going to end and Chaos was always going to win.


    It's not really a claim, more like an official mood that was clear in 1st edition of Warhammer RPG (where it was litterally written as such). It was to set a "dark fantasy" tone, where heroes can only delay the inevitable and that their fight is, in the end, in vain. Yet they still cling to their small victories and be like points of light burning in the darkness for a short time.

    Mood changed as years and editions pass on, sometimes being a bit lighter (like that edition with funny cartoon pictures in the rulebook), sometimes a bit darker. But the final victory for Chaos was always a recurrent theme.

    Even in TOW, their choice of putting Asavar Khule's invasion so far in its "future" is certainly a way to keep having that Chaos threat of destruction still close to the setting of that time.



    I for one am absolutely refusing to accept that bs that Malekith is actually the true Phoenix King, while he raids Ulthuan in my conception of the TOW period, just as an example.


    You may hate what they did with End Times, but I'm pretty sure that "Malekith was actually the true Phoenix King" was not made up on a whim for it, and that it was actually the underlining tragedy of the elves' civil war. The Khaine book wasn't the worst thought of the series, IMHO.

    Here, since the focus will be more on high elves colonies in the Old World, I believe they won't push that much on that button, but I wouldn't be surprised if they don't make hints at that in the story forward.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571946.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571946.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW at the End Times were catering to him far more than what would be reasonable.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571967.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571967.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Platuan4th wrote:
     Londinium wrote:
    They could have easily taken an approach of 'yes canonically it does but play TOW and create your own future for the WHFB world, if you want to pretend the End Times doesn't happen then go ahead'.


    Conversely, why do you need GW to say this?


    Agreed. Just any wargame less silly than AoS would do by now. Set 500 years before end times or whatever. No different than playing 30k or star wars old republic or anything middle earth set before the war of the ring.

    But that leaves the question why cant they just release the game. Its been years.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571973.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571973.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
    bobthe4th wrote:
    Every self respecting Fantasy player knows that the Old World is alive and well and AoS lore is just fanfiction that can be safely ignored!


    Or you act like a normal person and let people enjoy what they want to enjoy. Hard as that may be for some.


    Easy to say when you aren't the person whose "thing they enjoy" is wiped out of existence. While you might not find his attitude toward AOS palatable, it doesn't change the fact that these situations are not even remotely the same...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571974.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571974.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Just Tony wrote:
    No, Malekith was made Phoenix King because Ward has a special place in his heart for Dark Elves, loves to tear down anything he dislikes, and for some odd reason GW at the End Times were catering to him far more than what would be reasonable.


    Oh man, I was so angry at that reveal in Khaine. The background in the 4th edition High Elves book was some of the best in the range, and then it all gets upended by telling us that Doctor Doom was the hero all along. Ridiculous.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571978.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571978.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571980.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571980.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Just Tony wrote:
     Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
    bobthe4th wrote:
    Every self respecting Fantasy player knows that the Old World is alive and well and AoS lore is just fanfiction that can be safely ignored!


    Or you act like a normal person and let people enjoy what they want to enjoy. Hard as that may be for some.


    Easy to say when you aren't the person whose "thing they enjoy" is wiped out of existence. While you might not find his attitude toward AOS palatable, it doesn't change the fact that these situations are not even remotely the same...


    Oh do give it over. It's a game, not a lifestyle. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571984.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11571984.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
     Just Tony wrote:
     Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
    bobthe4th wrote:
    Every self respecting Fantasy player knows that the Old World is alive and well and AoS lore is just fanfiction that can be safely ignored!


    Or you act like a normal person and let people enjoy what they want to enjoy. Hard as that may be for some.


    Easy to say when you aren't the person whose "thing they enjoy" is wiped out of existence. While you might not find his attitude toward AOS palatable, it doesn't change the fact that these situations are not even remotely the same...


    Oh do give it over. It's a game, not a lifestyle.


    Oh do give it over. You're a poster on a wargaming forum, not the minister of the bureau of controlling others' preferences and emotional attitudes.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572008.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572008.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Just Tony wrote:
    No, Malekith was made Phoenix King because Ward has a special place in his heart for Dark Elves, loves to tear down anything he dislikes, and for some odd reason GW at the End Times were catering to him far more than what would be reasonable.


    Poor Matt Ward gets blamed needlessly. Gavin Thorpe, who was involved in Malekith a much longer time before, has also written the plot behind that.

    But anyway, what I'm saying here for TOW is that GW is still the same company for its background. There are things that will clearly be written differently, but I don't think the main line won't differ that much. Especially for elves, whose history is set on a certain course from the beginning.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572035.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572035.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Just Tony wrote:
    Easy to say when you aren't the person whose "thing they enjoy" is wiped out of existence.


    That's a very melodramatic way to describe a company discontinuing a rulebook.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572038.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572038.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Crimson wrote:
    Well, as the Eldest child and thus heir apparent of the Phoenix King Aenarion, Malekith was the legal Phoenix King.


    Well except that the Sorting Hat, uh, I mean Eternal Flame specifically rejected him.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572056.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572056.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     SgtEeveell wrote:
     Crimson wrote:
    Well, as the Eldest child and thus heir apparent of the Phoenix King Aenarion, Malekith was the legal Phoenix King.


    Well except that the Sorting Hat, uh, I mean Eternal Flame specifically rejected him.


    Except every other Phoenix King had rituals and that done before they entered the flame. End Times makes it clear Malekith wasn’t a no. He was a “not right now”]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572059.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572059.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
     SgtEeveell wrote:
     Crimson wrote:
    Well, as the Eldest child and thus heir apparent of the Phoenix King Aenarion, Malekith was the legal Phoenix King.


    Well except that the Sorting Hat, uh, I mean Eternal Flame specifically rejected him.


    Except every other Phoenix King had rituals and that done before they entered the flame. End Times makes it clear Malekith wasn’t a no. He was a “not right now”


    Which tells you alot about ET lore - although maybe it was just to stop him having children with his half sister the Everqueen...which seems a Very good reason not have the Phoenix King as a heridtory thing

    On the subject of Old World - do we think they will not have any centre piece models and have two entire fantasy ranges]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572065.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572065.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mr Morden wrote:
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
     SgtEeveell wrote:
     Crimson wrote:
    Well, as the Eldest child and thus heir apparent of the Phoenix King Aenarion, Malekith was the legal Phoenix King.


    Well except that the Sorting Hat, uh, I mean Eternal Flame specifically rejected him.


    Except every other Phoenix King had rituals and that done before they entered the flame. End Times makes it clear Malekith wasn’t a no. He was a “not right now”


    Which tells you alot about ET lore - although maybe it was just to stop him having children with his half sister the Everqueen...which seems a Very good reason not have the Phoenix King as a heridtory thing

    On the subject of Old World - do we think they will not have any centre piece models and have two entire fantasy ranges


    Centerpiece models are a bit tougher to do in a system like WHFB/Old World, but not impossible. Dragons and Steam Tanks certainly fit the bill, there.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572073.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572073.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572074.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572074.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Gav Thorpe is a legend and has written some great stuff, but when he was reduced to going "if you don't like it, maybe I should have just had the High Elves all die to Dwarfs" I think he knew it wasn't the best. (Or something like that, it was nearly 10 years ago.)

    Anyway, I hope the reason for this time period is that we can get some new characters and stories. Maybe on a slightly smaller scale - fights over land rather than the fate of the world.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572250.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572250.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Manfred von Drakken wrote:
     Mr Morden wrote:
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
     SgtEeveell wrote:
     Crimson wrote:
    Well, as the Eldest child and thus heir apparent of the Phoenix King Aenarion, Malekith was the legal Phoenix King.


    Well except that the Sorting Hat, uh, I mean Eternal Flame specifically rejected him.


    Except every other Phoenix King had rituals and that done before they entered the flame. End Times makes it clear Malekith wasn’t a no. He was a “not right now”


    Which tells you alot about ET lore - although maybe it was just to stop him having children with his half sister the Everqueen...which seems a Very good reason not have the Phoenix King as a heridtory thing

    On the subject of Old World - do we think they will not have any centre piece models and have two entire fantasy ranges


    Centerpiece models are a bit tougher to do in a system like WHFB/Old World, but not impossible. Dragons and Steam Tanks certainly fit the bill, there.


    Or just give every army a war altar which boosts your guys so much its obligatory, with thenoption to drop it and take a general on a monstrous mount or papanquin instead. Pretty much centerpiece.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572272.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572272.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors AOS and 40k on the Wc site so hope is there

    On the other hand I really disliked alot of the 8th ed lore which lead into ET so hopefully its more like 6th ed!]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572275.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572275.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Tyel wrote:
    when he was reduced to going "if you don't like it, maybe I should have just had the High Elves all die to Dwarfs" I think he knew it wasn't the best. (Or something like that, it was nearly 10 years ago.)



    It was "There will be as many Elves as the plot demands".]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572278.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572278.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Platuan4th wrote:
     Londinium wrote:
    They could have easily taken an approach of 'yes canonically it does but play TOW and create your own future for the WHFB world, if you want to pretend the End Times doesn't happen then go ahead'.


    Conversely, why do you need GW to say this?


    It's a bugbear, not a major issue, I can live with GW not saying it. Just like I can live with the setting always teetering on being destroyed by Chaos, doesn't mean that it was guaranteed to be destroyed by Chaos in the lore - at least until the End Times started being written.


    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572279.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572279.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Londinium wrote:
     Platuan4th wrote:

    Conversely, why do you need GW to say this?

    It's a bugbear, not a major issue, I can live with GW not saying it. Just like I can live with the setting always teetering on being destroyed by Chaos, doesn't mean that it was guaranteed to be destroyed by Chaos in the lore - at least until the End Times started being written.

    You are stressed over things that do not really matter. Let go of the lore and just enjoy playing the game.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572316.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572316.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Laemos wrote:
     Londinium wrote:
     Platuan4th wrote:

    Conversely, why do you need GW to say this?

    It's a bugbear, not a major issue, I can live with GW not saying it. Just like I can live with the setting always teetering on being destroyed by Chaos, doesn't mean that it was guaranteed to be destroyed by Chaos in the lore - at least until the End Times started being written.

    You are stressed over things that do not really matter. Let go of the lore and just enjoy playing the game.


    That's not how GW games work...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572318.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572318.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Mozzamanx wrote:
    Grail Seeker wrote:
    If you did it 10 years before the end times you have no where to grow into. In the setting they chose they have breathing room to make a lot of new models if there proves to be a market on top of selling the old - New King and Lords in Bretonnia, new dwarf thanes, new models of people fighting for the throne of the empire etc. And if it proves profitable you can advance the setting and eventually get to Magnus the Pious which would be very popular I imagine.

    Besides if you set the setting 10 years before the End Times the same people angry about gunpowder in the Old World would be angry that there is no point because the setting has a definitive ending.

    Its not like retcons are a foreign concept to warhammer fans anyways.


    Surely there's a way around this by introducing plot points that prevent the End Times from being inevitable?
    If Archaon fails to get one of his artefacts, or Be'lakor does some nonsense to interrupt his ascension, or maybe he has a rival to overcome first?
    Maybe we go back to the Storm of Chaos timeline instead of the End Times and Archaon can get pushed back to Brass Keep, with a less hammy ending.

    Or even some butterfly effect event that subtly but definitively makes the existing timeline divergent, however small that might be.
    Does the world still end if Nagash was already awake and active, without needing ET1 to kill off Nehekhara?


    GW is protecting the integrity of the AoS brand as their flagship fantasy setting product. They aren't going to retcon AoS into an alternate timeline. Give it up.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Tsagualsa wrote:
     Gert wrote:
    Except GW doesn't want the End Times to be prevented at all.
    The End Times allowed GW to make AoS and no matter how salty WHFB fans are, AoS is never going away. One linear timeline keeps things simple.


    In theory, they have unlimited free passes by going 'The Warp did it, it's an alternative reality, did you know that there's infinity of them?' but GW has said, uncharacteristically for them, that the End Times are a hard fact, there is no getting around them, and the community has to deal with it. Musings to the contrary are, at this point, the equivalent to sticking your fingers in your ears and going 'Neeneer neeneer, i cannot heeeear youuuuu'. If they ever want to re-negotiate on this, it will be very, very far from now, after a long period on just refusing to comment on the question.


    This. I guess a segment of the community is just pretending the Warcom article that confirmed the inevitability of The End Times didn't happen.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     insaniak wrote:
     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
    I don’t know how to explain it to you if you aren’t inspired by the same things. The finality of a setting’s destruction affects enjoyment of the whole setting.

    I think that's what puzzles me the most here... Because it sounds like we are indeed inspired by the same things, but you find knowing the ending to be limiting, while I look at all the space in between now and that ending and imagine how to fill it in.

    The Old World isn't dealing with the settled past. We have only very broad strokes about the events of that time period and everything leading from there to the End Times. There is still plenty of room for inserting your own creations into the mix.

    Hell, if the ending is the problem, then just ignore it. Bung your own Fassbender and McAvoy proxies in there and assume that the future is really just more of a set of guidelines than an actual rule. Sure, the setting was destroyed... but it hasn't happened yet. Maybe it won't.




    Indeed. Look at Horus Heresy - everyone knows the ending, yet the books consistently hit NYT's bestsellers list, and the game has only increased in popularity over time. No doubt some people are put off knowing the endings, but many are not.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Londinium wrote:
     His Master's Voice wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
    There's literally thousanas of years you can explore and make?our own guos and heroes and you HAVE to do on on,e specific yeai? Lol.

    Btw. Even if we ignore end times end is same. Chaos wins. Reality busted. Everybody dies. Here. I just ruieed any version of fb and 40k as you now knlw endieg and thus accordieg to you chargent explore it


    The "impending doom of the Warhammer world" present in much of the WFB and WFRP background was a mood marker more than any actual threat that would definitively end the setting.


    One of my biggest revisionist bugbears is when people claim the WHFB was always going to end and Chaos was always going to win. No they weren't, as you said it was mood music to set the tone, there's every chance that Archaon could have died before even reaching Kislev or that he could have failed in his invasionslike 12 previous everchosens. One of the few mistakes I feel GW has made in it's messaging around TOW (aside from not teaching people how to read articles properly) is insisting on the fact that the End Times will happen. They could have easily taken an approach of 'yes canonically it does but play TOW and create your own future for the WHFB world, if you want to pretend the End Times doesn't happen then go ahead'.

    I for one am absolutely refusing to accept that bs that Malekith is actually the true Phoenix King, while he raids Ulthuan in my conception of the TOW period, just as an example.


    Thats not necessarily true. Fictional universes always have a setting bible that is not for public knowledge that spells out details in the setting and lore that are not made explicitly clear. The existence of Malekith as the true Phoenix King would be something that could (and probably would) be spelled out in the setting bible, as its an important character fact that dictates how that character moves through the setting and interacts with other characters, regardless of whether or not it was ever intended for public real world knowledge. Something like the world having an impending destined/intended fixed ending *could* also be in the bible and would be more than just "mood music" (theres a reason why that "mood music" keeps getting brought up) - it would seem less likely to be included, but given the grimdark nature of the setting having notes in the bible that "chaos will inevitably win and destroy the world, this is an unavoidable outcome" would be very appropriate for inclusion because its sets the tone for the setting and the stories contained. That it happened during the reign of Karl Franz or was so close into the future of the present setting probably wasn't intended from the get-go however.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Just Tony wrote:
    No, Malekith was made Phoenix King because Ward has a special place in his heart for Dark Elves, loves to tear down anything he dislikes, and for some odd reason GW at the End Times were catering to him far more than what would be reasonable.


    *citation needed.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572343.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572343.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    That is just how GW works. It was likely a conversation had when coming up with End Time stories and somebody said, "wouldn't it be cool if..."

    I personally don't hate it, but a lot of people did and they took it upon themselves to blame Matt Ward above all others for it.

    In either case, Dark Elves are not a part of this setting, at least to start. So elf simps can put away their torches at least for a little while.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572426.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572426.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572451.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572451.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Londinium wrote:
     His Master's Voice wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
    There's literally thousanas of years you can explore and make?our own guos and heroes and you HAVE to do on on,e specific yeai? Lol.

    Btw. Even if we ignore end times end is same. Chaos wins. Reality busted. Everybody dies. Here. I just ruieed any version of fb and 40k as you now knlw endieg and thus accordieg to you chargent explore it


    The "impending doom of the Warhammer world" present in much of the WFB and WFRP background was a mood marker more than any actual threat that would definitively end the setting.


    One of my biggest revisionist bugbears is when people claim the WHFB was always going to end and Chaos was always going to win. No they weren't, as you said it was mood music to set the tone, there's every chance that Archaon could have died before even reaching Kislev or that he could have failed in his invasionslike 12 previous everchosens. One of the few mistakes I feel GW has made in it's messaging around TOW (aside from not teaching people how to read articles properly) is insisting on the fact that the End Times will happen. They could have easily taken an approach of 'yes canonically it does but play TOW and create your own future for the WHFB world, if you want to pretend the End Times doesn't happen then go ahead'.

    I for one am absolutely refusing to accept that bs that Malekith is actually the true Phoenix King, while he raids Ulthuan in my conception of the TOW period, just as an example.


    End in theme yes. Game no.

    The inevitable loss is whole bloody sense of setting. The ultimate core thing.

    But what you seems to have missed is game was setting. Not advancing story with 1 side winning and game ends. It was supposed to be setting that doesn't have official end because you know what? Point is to sell models. For that game needs to continue.

    But theme wise chaos win is inevitable. But gw wasn't originally planning to actually end game.

    Setting. Not story.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572454.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572454.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    They are part of the setting, just not the game. They are in not-north america minding their own business being hedonistic exiles and doing slaver stuff.


    They're also a force that runs around on Aircraft Carriers Black Arks to raid literally everywhere around the globe, so if any force has a reasonable explanation for turning up wherever the plot needs them to the Dark Elves probably have the best one. They're not 'in focus' for reasons totally outside the lore and background, let's not kid ourselves.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572457.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572457.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors WHFB lore expert so I chalk it up to maybe Black Arks not existing yet or maybe this is right after the High Elves pearl harbored the entire Dark Elf fleet and it takes them 100 years to return to the sea in force. Or, yknow, whatever arbitrary made up reason the authors decide to write into the fiction.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572461.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572461.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Grail Seeker wrote:
    I'd bet a paycheck that there was no decision made on whether Malekith was the true phoenix king or not upon his creation.

    That is just how GW works. It was likely a conversation had when coming up with End Time stories and somebody said, "wouldn't it be cool if..."


    Its how most "universes" work. The idea of a Bible is great and all - but no creator knows if "this" book/show/film etc is the one that's going to sell a million copies and start a universe. You may have some idea where a trilogy is going - but then re-write if there are breakout characters, or you get new ideas as you go etc.

    I mean the 4th edition High Elf army book was published in 1993. GW didn't have a clue they'd be doing End Times in 20~ years time - and If WHFB had been making £££, they wouldn't have ended it.

    When you look at say the Horus Heresy series - it wasn't imagined at the outset as a series of 100~ books. If it had crashed and burned they'd presumably have stopped. But it did well and so got ever more stretched. Certain plot points were set in stone - but others could be created out of very little or nothing. And if readers liked that, embellished. And if readers went "what the hell is this?", then Eldrad could mind-war them in the head.

    Anyway, I feel "they aren't in the setting" is like this. They aren't for now. If TOW sells well, nothing stops them going "yeah, they woke up idk, buy our new DE/Skaven/etc".]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572467.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572467.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    Yeah, I admit it sounds totally bizarre to me that they don't show up. The reasons sound contrived, but I'm also not a WHFB lore expert so I chalk it up to maybe Black Arks not existing yet or maybe this is right after the High Elves pearl harbored the entire Dark Elf fleet and it takes them 100 years to return to the sea in force. Or, yknow, whatever arbitrary made up reason the authors decide to write into the fiction.


    Going through one of my old high elven army books the setting seems to be set during Bel-Hathor's rule as Phoenix King (The one preceeding Finubar), or possibly early in Finubar's reign depending on the exact year, so the Dark Elves were actually pretty quiet during this period; they'd last attempted an invasion of Ulthuan twice a century or two earlier and gotten pretty beaten up by various earlier Phoenix Kings. The next time they show up is during the Great war against Chaos when they again invade Ulthuan and Tyrian and Teclis get their big debut.

    I guess that is why they are "supposedly" not showing up as they're busy licking their wounds / dealing with internal politics. The same argument can also be used for both the Lizardmen, who are largely keeping to themselves right around now, the Skaven, who are busy fighting a civil war unitl the Horned Rat appears, and the non-Nehekaran undead, who got largely wiped out in the Vampire wars.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572475.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572475.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572484.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572484.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    As the chosen races get full campaign books and models they will be left further and further behind until GW decides to include them for real. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572489.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572489.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Its a legends index. Thats it. No further support unless you're one of the 6 or 8 or whatever chosen factions that would be part of the games ongoing narrative. The rest are explicitly said to not be part of the story they want to tell with this game and will not be featured at all beyond that.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572518.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572518.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    Yes, all legacy factions are getting whats basically a legends style index army list with the release of The Old World.

    Its a legends index. Thats it. No further support unless you're one of the 6 or 8 or whatever chosen factions that would be part of the games ongoing narrative. The rest are explicitly said to not be part of the story they want to tell with this game and will not be featured at all beyond that.

    Not quite. They said they won't be part of the initial coverage of the Old World. The door is pretty wide open for a New World expansion.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572526.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572526.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    Yeah, I admit it sounds totally bizarre to me that they don't show up. The reasons sound contrived, but I'm also not a WHFB lore expert so I chalk it up to maybe Black Arks not existing yet or maybe this is right after the High Elves pearl harbored the entire Dark Elf fleet and it takes them 100 years to return to the sea in force. Or, yknow, whatever arbitrary made up reason the authors decide to write into the fiction.


    They'll probably still show up in the lore, the game just won't focus on them or give them new model releases in it's initial period.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572540.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572540.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Mozzamanx wrote:
    Surely there's a way around this by introducing plot points that prevent the End Times from being inevitable?
    If Archaon fails to get one of his artefacts, or Be'lakor does some nonsense to interrupt his ascension, or maybe he has a rival to overcome first?
    Maybe we go back to the Storm of Chaos timeline instead of the End Times and Archaon can get pushed back to Brass Keep, with a less hammy ending.


    After Archaon got wrecked in the Storm of Chaos campaign (courtesy of the Orcs and Goblins players, mind you), they eventually retconned that out of the Warriors of Chaos army book. The End Times was, essentially, "Storm of Chaos (How It Should Have Happened)".]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572585.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572585.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Manfred von Drakken wrote:
     Mr Morden wrote:
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
     SgtEeveell wrote:
     Crimson wrote:
    Well, as the Eldest child and thus heir apparent of the Phoenix King Aenarion, Malekith was the legal Phoenix King.


    Well except that the Sorting Hat, uh, I mean Eternal Flame specifically rejected him.


    Except every other Phoenix King had rituals and that done before they entered the flame. End Times makes it clear Malekith wasn’t a no. He was a “not right now”


    Which tells you alot about ET lore - although maybe it was just to stop him having children with his half sister the Everqueen...which seems a Very good reason not have the Phoenix King as a heridtory thing

    On the subject of Old World - do we think they will not have any centre piece models and have two entire fantasy ranges


    Centerpiece models are a bit tougher to do in a system like WHFB/Old World, but not impossible. Dragons and Steam Tanks certainly fit the bill, there.


    Will they be in the rules? Yep. Dwarven High King, Bretonnian Grail Pilgrims, DE Cauldron of Blood, Skaven Screaming Bell, Imperial War Altar, etc. etc. etc.

    Will they be usable in the meta?

    News at 11...


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    They are part of the setting, just not the game. They are in not-north america minding their own business being hedonistic exiles and doing slaver stuff.


    Well, yeah, but doing slaver stuff generally meant raiding the shores of the Empire, Bretonnia, and other places that ARE in the game. I expect that was most DE battles right there, taking out garrisons protecting an area so they could raid it for slaves more efficiently.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    Yeah, I admit it sounds totally bizarre to me that they don't show up. The reasons sound contrived, but I'm also not a WHFB lore expert so I chalk it up to maybe Black Arks not existing yet or maybe this is right after the High Elves pearl harbored the entire Dark Elf fleet and it takes them 100 years to return to the sea in force. Or, yknow, whatever arbitrary made up reason the authors decide to write into the fiction.


    Here's your primer on the DE origin. Malekith ruled a province in the NW of Ulthuan, Nagarythe. Malekith goes bad, big civil war, High Elves destroy Nagarythe by sinking it under the waves. Dark Elves use big magic, much juju to turn their surviving cities into huge boats (the Black Arks) and sail off to the New World to found Naggarond. IIRC, they raided Tiranoc for horses shortly afterward, to create their Dark Steeds (took them a while to 'domesticate' Cold Ones). Raiding for slaves didn't take much longer.

    Of course, GW can rewrite any of that at their whim, but it would annoy DE players like me to no end...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572632.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572632.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Manfred von Drakken wrote:
    Mozzamanx wrote:
    Surely there's a way around this by introducing plot points that prevent the End Times from being inevitable?
    If Archaon fails to get one of his artefacts, or Be'lakor does some nonsense to interrupt his ascension, or maybe he has a rival to overcome first?
    Maybe we go back to the Storm of Chaos timeline instead of the End Times and Archaon can get pushed back to Brass Keep, with a less hammy ending.


    After Archaon got wrecked in the Storm of Chaos campaign (courtesy of the Orcs and Goblins players, mind you), they eventually retconned that out of the Warriors of Chaos army book. The End Times was, essentially, "Storm of Chaos (How It Should Have Happened)".
    It wasn't, though. A lot of important pieces were totally changed, a lot of events from Storm of Chaos not only never happened but never even went in the same direction, and a lot of events which did happen were completely new.

    Ultimately, Storm of Chaos was done to continue the story of the world. End Times was done to close it. And with at least some irony it was done to create a setting more open for players to invent their own content to inhabit it.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Arbitrator wrote:
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    Yes, all legacy factions are getting whats basically a legends style index army list with the release of The Old World.

    Its a legends index. Thats it. No further support unless you're one of the 6 or 8 or whatever chosen factions that would be part of the games ongoing narrative. The rest are explicitly said to not be part of the story they want to tell with this game and will not be featured at all beyond that.

    Not quite. They said they won't be part of the initial coverage of the Old World. The door is pretty wide open for a New World expansion.
    And they'll no doubt get around to the Great War against Chaos eventually.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     insaniak wrote:
     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
    I don’t know how to explain it to you if you aren’t inspired by the same things. The finality of a setting’s destruction affects enjoyment of the whole setting.

    I think that's what puzzles me the most here... Because it sounds like we are indeed inspired by the same things, but you find knowing the ending to be limiting, while I look at all the space in between now and that ending and imagine how to fill it in.

    The Old World isn't dealing with the settled past. We have only very broad strokes about the events of that time period and everything leading from there to the End Times. There is still plenty of room for inserting your own creations into the mix.

    Hell, if the ending is the problem, then just ignore it. Bung your own Fassbender and McAvoy proxies in there and assume that the future is really just more of a set of guidelines than an actual rule. Sure, the setting was destroyed... but it hasn't happened yet. Maybe it won't.
    Both positions seem pretty reasonable to me.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572658.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572658.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors LotR, from the appendices there's endless space for other stories to be told, when Gondor and other kingdoms had "normal" medieval ups and downs and not simply good humans vs bad orcs. If course we never actually see that utilised for setting in games etc. The problem with WFB is where the established history interferes with the gameplay, ie agic is illegal" or "skaven haven't emerged yet" or whatever, but that can just be handwaved or retconned imo.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572668.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572668.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Arbitrator wrote:
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    Yes, all legacy factions are getting whats basically a legends style index army list with the release of The Old World.

    Its a legends index. Thats it. No further support unless you're one of the 6 or 8 or whatever chosen factions that would be part of the games ongoing narrative. The rest are explicitly said to not be part of the story they want to tell with this game and will not be featured at all beyond that.

    Not quite. They said they won't be part of the initial coverage of the Old World. The door is pretty wide open for a New World expansion.


    No, that is *not* what they said. They were rather explicit as to what time period the overarching game is set in (as opposed to just the "first wave" as some have tried to misinterpret in order to convince themselves that they arent being screwed over) and that those omitted factions have no business being in the game as a result.

     NinthMusketeer wrote:
    And they'll no doubt get around to the Great War against Chaos eventually.




    They explicitly said the game is set before the Siege of Praag, which is before The Great War Against Chaos. So no, they wont.

    I really don't get why so many people have trouble with this. The games time period is from some point after the Vampire Wars to before the Siege of Praag within a soecific geographic region of the setting, in the same way Horus Heresy is set after Istvaan III and before the death of Horus within the context of the conflict between Horus and the Emperor. In the same way that xenos are out of context for the Horus Heresy (its been what, 15 years since they started the game? Xenos ain't coming), dark elves abd skaven are out of context for TOW. In the same way HH doesn't cover the Great Crusade or Scouring, TOW wony cover the Vampire Wars or Great War. Not just through the first wave or initial period, but *ever* - or, yknow, at least as long as current management is in place. The point is that its out of scope and not part of any short or long term plan for the game. Just accept it.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572675.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572675.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors VC are suddenly part of the narrative. But it does mean that they just had an important (albeit small) role to play in a scenario that might be worth replaying on the tabletop with a special army list.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572677.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572677.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors Over There) later on would give them plenty of scope for introducing the other races that don't fit into the initial launch story.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572681.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572681.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     insaniak wrote:
    Releasing geographically-based expansions (Warhammer: The Old World - Over There)


    I'm in favour of this idea, but only if they keep that naming convention.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572705.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572705.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    if this is the single person project like HH was at the beginning, it will take 5+ years until all the initial suggested armies are seeing their book

    they also mentioned that the campaign they start will settle with the Siege of Praag and this is a 100 years away, so from that I expect that someone there has a 10+ year plan for releases

    yet this is still all subject to change as without dedicated models lines being there, no investment is done that makes them stick to that plan
    might be that they switch again and we see a very different thing and it all starts with the Crusades against Arabia instead]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572706.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572706.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:


    They explicitly said the game is set before the Siege of Praag, which is before The Great War Against Chaos. So no, they wont.

    I really don't get why so many people have trouble with this…..


    It’s pretty simple, plans change. I mean the original Old World comms was focused on Kislev and a closer tie to Total War, but those original plans have changed just a few years later.

    It seems obvious that if the Old World is relatively successful, it will get a second edition / expansion with additional content.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572710.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572710.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors 40k since Rogue Trader? Who's to say they can't do that here and incorporate whatever they want based on the success of the game.

    That will drive future decisions more than anything.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572715.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572715.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors 40k has not really advanced as any advancement was retconned or ignored an edition later)

    TOW will start ~2200 in the border princess and advance in story to end 2300 in Praag, and this includes the ~8 factions named and nothing else

    if there is another campaign doing a different setting depends what happens after they reach Praag
    could as well be a 2nd Edition that starts again in 2200 but in a different place or a different time, or nothing new at all]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572717.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572717.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572788.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572788.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
     Arbitrator wrote:
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    Yes, all legacy factions are getting whats basically a legends style index army list with the release of The Old World.

    Its a legends index. Thats it. No further support unless you're one of the 6 or 8 or whatever chosen factions that would be part of the games ongoing narrative. The rest are explicitly said to not be part of the story they want to tell with this game and will not be featured at all beyond that.

    Not quite. They said they won't be part of the initial coverage of the Old World. The door is pretty wide open for a New World expansion.


    No, that is *not* what they said. They were rather explicit as to what time period the overarching game is set in (as opposed to just the "first wave" as some have tried to misinterpret in order to convince themselves that they arent being screwed over) and that those omitted factions have no business being in the game as a result.


    The idea of "waves" seems to have come from this sentence in the faction reveal article:

    Much of the action in the first wave of books and supplements takes place in and around the Border Princes – the barrier lands between the Empire and Orc territory. Accordingly, we will be focusing on nine core factions.
    The Skaven re-emerged only after the Horned Rat himself was summoned at Skavenblight to end the strife and instil new purpose into his children (this ties in with the wider rise of Chaos and the destruction wrought by Asavar Kul), turning them into a new power in the world.
    Chaos Daemons have existed in the past and will again, but there is an ebb and flow to the power of Chaos – in our period Chaos is at its lowest ebb in a long time. When Asavar Kul rises to become the 12th Everchosen, the power of Chaos will build again, but we won’t see daemonic servants of individual gods for a while yet.

    So for the "first wave", we get nine core factions, and then with the "second wave", we'll see the return of the excluded factions, despite the article stating:
    The game will be set firmly within the Old World itself – the lands between the coast of Bretonnia to the west and the Worlds Edge Mountains to the east – during the decades immediately before the Great War Against Chaos and the Siege of Praag.

    They repeat the where/when setting of the game multiple times throughout the article. As Kodo says, even if the Great War is their intended end for the TOW narrative, it'll be years before we see it. If they intend to bring back the excluded factions, I can't see how they can fit them into the narrative when they literally gave reasons for their exclusion during the period the game is set in.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572790.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572790.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors can be "first wave on release", can also be "first 10 year lasting Edition" and the 2nd wave is the 2nd Edition with a new story line

    Tyel wrote:
    Where did they say they'd advance the timeline?

    Warhammer Fest? one of the release Videos/Stuff/Articles whatever were they confirmed that it will be in the past, starting with border princess and covering a timeframe of approx 100 years till siege of praage as goal]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572791.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572791.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    question here is, what is a "wave" in context of TOW
    can be "first wave on release", can also be "first 10 year lasting Edition" and the 2nd wave is the 2nd Edition with a new story line

    Tyel wrote:
    Where did they say they'd advance the timeline?

    Warhammer Fest? one of the release Videos/Stuff/Articles whatever were they confirmed that it will be in the past, starting with border princess and covering a timeframe of approx 100 years till siege of praage as goal


    I was wondering if there was something more definitive than the article Sathrut quoted. As said, the debate all seems to be in what "first wave" means.
    To my mind the Siege of Praag can easily be the Siege of Terra. Theoretically its the end point - in practice, it can remain forever in the future.

    I.E. we could have the following
    Wave 1: Blood in the Badlands.
    Wave 2: Empire Civil War
    Wave 3: Great War against Chaos/Siege of Praag.

    But we could (theoretically) have

    Wave 1: Blood in the Badlands
    Wave 2: Trouble in Troll Country - Faction added: Kislev
    Wave 3: Imperial Civil War round 1.
    Wave 4: Ghosts in the Grey Mountains - Faction Added: Non-Khemri Undead.
    Wave 5: Peril from the Great Ocean - Faction Added: Dark Elves as Black Ark Slaving Fleet
    Wave 6: Imperial Civil War, round 2.
    Wave 7: Lets go treasure hunting in Khemri
    Wave 8: Torment in Tilea - Faction added Skaven
    Wave 9: Great War against Chaos/Praag etc - Faction Added: Daemons
    (Or whatever you imagination can create).

    I expect in reality they've got Phase 1 Greenlit and they'll see how it does. Much like how Horus Heresy was vaguely defined early on, and quickly just turned into endless Yakety Sax. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572805.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572805.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Wave 1:
    Border Princess Book 1: Bretonnia & Khemri
    Border Princess Book 2: Empire & Beastmen
    Border Princess Book 3: Dwarfs & Orcs
    Border Princess Book 4: High Elves & Wood Elves
    Great War Against Chaos Book 1: Empire Civil War
    Great War Against Chaos Book 2: Magic
    Great War Against Chaos Book 3: Chaos Warriors & Kislev added as new faction

    Wave 2:
    Book 1: Skaven VS Tilea
    Book 2: Dark Elves vs Norsca
    Book 3: Empire united
    etc
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572813.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572813.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Cathay seems to the odd one to add into as it should come reasonably early like Kislev as its the big race that the older gamers have the most to buy which is actually new.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572814.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572814.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572817.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572817.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     .Mikes. wrote:
    Can't help but notice there's not so much news in this news thread as a few of people arguing over potential lore. Can't you take it to another thread.


    The most recent posts are discussing the potential release in light of the information at hand.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572818.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572818.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Tyel wrote:
    Where did they say they'd advance the timeline?


    They didn't specifically. Nor, I believe, have they said that it's set specifically beginning at 2200 IC. I don't know where that came from, though we seem to certainly be looking roughly at that period. The supposition is that they'll eventually expand into the Great War if there's enough success from the game to justify it. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572826.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572826.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     .Mikes. wrote:
    Can't help but notice there's not so much news in this news thread
    because there is no new information

    the news are the very same since 3 years, TOW will sometimes in the future be released, some armies will get new models, there will index like army list with all the models available in 8th


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    JimmyWolf87 wrote:
    Nor, I believe, have they said that it's set specifically beginning at 2200 IC. I don't know where that came from,
    because they mentioned that it will start ~100 years before the Siege of Praag which happened in 2304]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572829.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572829.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Queektail wrote:
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    Yeah, I admit it sounds totally bizarre to me that they don't show up. The reasons sound contrived, but I'm also not a WHFB lore expert so I chalk it up to maybe Black Arks not existing yet or maybe this is right after the High Elves pearl harbored the entire Dark Elf fleet and it takes them 100 years to return to the sea in force. Or, yknow, whatever arbitrary made up reason the authors decide to write into the fiction.


    Going through one of my old high elven army books the setting seems to be set during Bel-Hathor's rule as Phoenix King (The one preceeding Finubar), or possibly early in Finubar's reign depending on the exact year, so the Dark Elves were actually pretty quiet during this period; they'd last attempted an invasion of Ulthuan twice a century or two earlier and gotten pretty beaten up by various earlier Phoenix Kings. The next time they show up is during the Great war against Chaos when they again invade Ulthuan and Tyrian and Teclis get their big debut.

    I guess that is why they are "supposedly" not showing up as they're busy licking their wounds / dealing with internal politics. The same argument can also be used for both the Lizardmen, who are largely keeping to themselves right around now, the Skaven, who are busy fighting a civil war unitl the Horned Rat appears, and the non-Nehekaran undead, who got largely wiped out in the Vampire wars.


    It's seemingly Finubar's reign yes (by about 50-100 years) though he was already a very prominent figure beforehand. The Dark Elves had been laying low for centuries at this point, they'd lost a major conflict and probably having to deal with internal issues as well as the growing Chaos incursions on their own border (until they just joined in the fun themselves when The Great War starts). Obviously scope for them to be raiding during the Old World setting though there's at least a modicum of pre-existing lore to justify their absence, especially if it's initially focused on the Border Princes.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     kodos wrote:
     .Mikes. wrote:
    Can't help but notice there's not so much news in this news thread
    because there is no new information

    the news are the very same since 3 years, TOW will sometimes in the future be released, some armies will get new models, there will index like army list with all the models available in 8th


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    JimmyWolf87 wrote:
    Nor, I believe, have they said that it's set specifically beginning at 2200 IC. I don't know where that came from,
    because they mentioned that it will start ~100 years before the Siege of Praag which happened in 2304


    Where? They've said 'the decades before the Siege of Praag'. That could be anything. Could be 20 years. Could be 100. Don't recall seeing a specific start point beyond that. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572832.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572832.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    JimmyWolf87 wrote:


    Where? They've said 'the decades before the Siege of Praag'. That could be anything. Could be 20 years. Could be 100. Don't recall seeing a specific start point beyond that.


    Well, it stands to reason that it's something between 50 and 150 years, if it was much longer, they'd probably have said 'centuries', not 'decades'. It being set in the time of the three emperors narrows it down to at most 800 years before, the ongoing second skaven civil war further narrows it down to at most 450. Finally, it's also set after the third vampire war, which narrows it down to 150 years, between 2145 and 2301 in the Imperial Calendar. Bretonnia is also noted to be ruled by Louen Orcslayer at the time of this game, who began his campaing against the Orcs in 2201, which sets us at most 100 years before the Great War.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572846.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572846.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Tsagualsa wrote:
    JimmyWolf87 wrote:


    Where? They've said 'the decades before the Siege of Praag'. That could be anything. Could be 20 years. Could be 100. Don't recall seeing a specific start point beyond that.


    Well, it stands to reason that it's something between 50 and 150 years, if it was much longer, they'd probably have said 'centuries', not 'decades'. It being set in the time of the three emperors narrows it down to at most 800 years before, the ongoing second skaven civil war further narrows it down to at most 450. Finally, it's also set after the third vampire war, which narrows it down to 150 years, between 2145 and 2301 in the Imperial Calendar. Bretonnia is also noted to be ruled by Louen Orcslayer at the time of this game, who began his campaing against the Orcs in 2201, which sets us at most 100 years before the Great War.


    Well yeah, I thought that was broadly obvious as a general period, I was more questioning the statement that it will specifically begin at 2200 IC. If anything, the quote of 'decades immediately before the Great War' implies it might be towards the latter end of that century and somewhat narrower than the full century. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572855.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572855.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    JimmyWolf87 wrote:
    Tsagualsa wrote:
    JimmyWolf87 wrote:


    Where? They've said 'the decades before the Siege of Praag'. That could be anything. Could be 20 years. Could be 100. Don't recall seeing a specific start point beyond that.


    Well, it stands to reason that it's something between 50 and 150 years, if it was much longer, they'd probably have said 'centuries', not 'decades'. It being set in the time of the three emperors narrows it down to at most 800 years before, the ongoing second skaven civil war further narrows it down to at most 450. Finally, it's also set after the third vampire war, which narrows it down to 150 years, between 2145 and 2301 in the Imperial Calendar. Bretonnia is also noted to be ruled by Louen Orcslayer at the time of this game, who began his campaing against the Orcs in 2201, which sets us at most 100 years before the Great War.


    Well yeah, I thought that was broadly obvious as a general period, I was more questioning the statement that it will specifically begin at 2200 IC. If anything, the quote of 'decades immediately before the Great War' implies it might be towards the latter end of that century and somewhat narrower than the full century.


    Yes, that's how i understand it too - it probably starts mid-century and moves over to the upswell in Chaos Energy (if they ever get that far) that leads to the reappearance of Demons, and the awakening of Magic-dependant great monsters, eventually. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572861.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572861.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    It would likely be near the begining of the century.

    The Orc crusade began in 2201, and going off of the orc infested map of Bretonnia that was shared with us, I don't think that Errantry war has been going on for long, it might just be getting started. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572876.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572876.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    They repeat the where/when setting of the game multiple times throughout the article. As Kodo says, even if the Great War is their intended end for the TOW narrative, it'll be years before we see it. If they intend to bring back the excluded factions, I can't see how they can fit them into the narrative when they literally gave reasons for their exclusion during the period the game is set in.


    You seem to think GW have some master plan they are going to rigidly adhere to, no matter what.
    As opposed to all the evidence so far showing that they are just making stuff up as they go along.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572916.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572916.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Eumerin wrote:
    What they explicitly said was that the races were not part of the narrative. The narrative is the over-arching story. It's where the focus is found. They did not rule out the possibility of them occasionally intruding in a seemingly minor skirmish that has important ramifications elsewhere. For instance, if a small zombie army suddenly needs to be crushed by Empire reinforcements that end up just missing a big battle against a greenskin horde as a result, that doesn't mean that VC are suddenly part of the narrative. But it does mean that they just had an important (albeit small) role to play in a scenario that might be worth replaying on the tabletop with a special army list.


    Thats because saying they aren't part of the game would be technically erroneous in light of the PDF army lists. The point is that the narrative drives the game and dictates what is and isn't included in future development. The whole point of the article was to communicate what The Old World is and is not, and what will and won't be part of the game. They then explained to you why the things that won't be part of the game are not part of it. The message is crystal clear and you're at risk of OD'ing on copium if you think otherwise. They didn't write a whole article explaining this to you just to surprise you later with a special army lists. I have no doubt that something similar to Vampire Counts will show up in the future, but I bet you it won't look much like VC or really allow you to use your existing minis - I for sure expect Vampire Coast to show up, maybe Blood Keep - but thats not VC(ounts), thats a different faction, different army list, different set of models, etc.

     insaniak wrote:
    Releasing geographically-based expansions (Warhammer: The Old World - Over There) later on would give them plenty of scope for introducing the other races that don't fit into the initial launch story.


    "The game will be set firmly within the Old World itself – the lands between the coast of Bretonnia to the west and the Worlds Edge Mountains to the east".

    That type of expansions is 100% out of scope - this isn't a statement about "the launch story", this is a statement about "the game". The article is discussing a lot more than "the launch story" - which is very specifically about the Border Princes. The 'launch story' is a subset of 'the game', in the same way that the Border Princes are a subset of 'the lands between the coast of Bretonnia to the west and the Worlds Edge Mountains to the east'. The article as whole, defines what 'the game' is, and is telling us that certain factions are not part of it because reasons.
    We shouldn't need to rehash this, because its quite clear, but here we are.

    Yes, they *could* release "Over There" expansions, but the point of the article is to communicate that you should not expect that because its not in their plans to do so at any point.

    bobthe4th wrote:
    chaos0xomega wrote:

    They explicitly said the game is set before the Siege of Praag, which is before The Great War Against Chaos. So no, they wont.

    I really don't get why so many people have trouble with this…..


    It’s pretty simple, plans change. I mean the original Old World comms was focused on Kislev and a closer tie to Total War, but those original plans have changed just a few years later.

    It seems obvious that if the Old World is relatively successful, it will get a second edition / expansion with additional content.


    You mean how the Horus Heresy was so successful that they changed their plans and added in xenos? Oh, wait. I guess obvious isn't obvious after all.

    The game will have expansions - they already told us that the first wave is about the Border Princes, that there is a first wave implies the existence of additional waves, which presumably will not be about the Border Princes. Those additional waves will not include the things that they wrote an entire article to explain would not be included - because those waves are part of the game and subject to the limitations of its scope. Hell, the article even talks about expansions:

    These armies will have rules published alongside the launch of the Old World, and will be the pivotal players in the events covered in narrative expansions and supplements.


    Its a safe assumption that those expansions include things beyond the scope of wave 1, but within the scope of the game.

    And we have nothing to indicate that "plans changed". Thats purely conjecture. The original Old World comms had nothing at all to do with Kislev. In fact, the first article about TOW following the initial announcement was a map that featured only 4 crests indicating the 4 competing Empire factions during the Age of Three Emperors (which is a few hundred years before Total War). It wasn't until about a month later that they mentioned Kislev would becoming to the game, but they never really indicated that they would be a release faction or anything like that.

    One thing to note is that Warcom ran an article 2 years ago that focused heavy on the Border Princes, which may have well been an early hint of things to come. I will also point out that if you look carefully at those crests you might notice that one of them features a Bear and has the name "Uvetovsk" on it - sure looks and sounds a lot like Kislev to me Another one you might notice is a vampirish looking one that says "Harkon" - now where do we know that name from? We know VC(ounts) aren't in the game, but mayhaps VC(oast) are? Knowing that the first wave is about the Border Princes, and that Kislev are present, to me implies a little something something about how things are going to go.

     nathan2004 wrote:
    Haven't they advanced the timeline of 40k since Rogue Trader? Who's to say they can't do that here and incorporate whatever they want based on the success of the game.

    That will drive future decisions more than anything.


    For the most part, no. They got cute with time fluctuations and calendar errors, so nobody actually knows what year it currently is and different areas of the galaxy are experiencing time differently, with some traveling backwards in time while others move forwards, etc.

    TOW will start ~2200 in the border princess and advance in story to end 2300 in Praag, and this includes the ~8 factions named and nothing else


    You were right, right up until you said "and nothing else". They did not say that, at all. As far as existing factions are concerned, that is correct, but that does not preclude the existence of new factions. The fact that the article was titled "MAIN Factions Revealed" implies the existence of other factions, does it not?



    This should not be confusing.

    The "first wave" is nested within the context of "the game" (or "the narrative" of the game, if you prefer). Everything true of the game is true of all waves, while anything true of the first wave is only true of the first wave unless explicitly stated elsewhere. This is what the article says:

    The game will be set firmly within the Old World itself – the lands between the coast of Bretonnia to the west and the Worlds Edge Mountains to the east – during the decades immediately before the Great War Against Chaos and the Siege of Praag.


    So that provides you, dear reader, with both the geographic and temporal boundaries of the product. Anything outside of those boundaries is out of scope. Then the article says:

    Certain factions people remember from Warhammer Fantasy Battles are not part of the narrative we’re telling with The Old World


    The Old World is the title of the game, not the title of the first wave, so the 7 factions listed aChaos Daemons have existed in the past and will again, but there is an ebb and flow to the power of Chaos – in our period Chaos is at its lowest ebb in a long time.re being indicated as being out of scope with the narrative of the game, which mChaos Daemons have existed in the past and will again, but there is an ebb and flow to the power of Chaos – in our period Chaos is at its lowest ebb in a long time.eans - they ain't part of the game beyond the pdf lists.

    Then it goes on to explain why the factions aren't, and every single explanation given is an explanation that defines why they don't fit within the scope of the game (in terms of time and or space), rather than the first wave:

    During the century before the Siege of Praag, the Skaven Under-Empire


    The Von Carsteins were all dead (for a given value of dead) after the Vampire Wars


    Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Chaos Dwarfs and Ogre Kingdoms are all based far from the Old World and, during this period, are very inward looking and insular races.


    Chaos Daemons have existed in the past and will again, but there is an ebb and flow to the power of Chaos – in our period Chaos is at its lowest ebb in a long time.


    Note w/ regards to the Vampire Counts bit, as its a bit less clear - the Vampire Wars ended before the Age of the Three Emperors (in fact, the Vampire Wars CAUSED the Age of Three Emperors) which coincides at least partially with the time period of the game per the map and earlier communications, so the earliest that events in TOW could theoretically take place is after the Vampire Wars are over.

    That the game sidebars into a discussion about the scope of the first wave is irrelevant. Statements made explicitly about the first wave are true of the first wave and nothing else, subsequent waves still need to fit within the scope of the game, and everything in the article highlights that these things you desire do not. While I understand the way the paragraph regarding the first wave might lead one to think that the 9 "core faction" are only relevant to the first wave, the subsequent paragraphs expand that these 9 factions are core to the whole game and not just the first wave - I won't quote everything there, but I'll simply point to the key statement here:

    In Warhammer: The Old World, these core factions battle endlessly.


    Again, talking about the game here, not the first wave - these aren't the "core factions" of the first wave, they are the "core factions" of THE GAME.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572992.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11572992.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:

    Note w/ regards to the Vampire Counts bit, as its a bit less clear - the Vampire Wars ended before the Age of the Three Emperors (in fact, the Vampire Wars CAUSED the Age of Three Emperors) which coincides at least partially with the time period of the game per the map and earlier communications, so the earliest that events in TOW could theoretically take place is after the Vampire Wars are over.


    This bit is incorrect - the Vampire Wars are in the middle of the Age of the Three Emperors and the latter plays an important part in the Vampire Wars narrative and how both Vlad and Mannfred managed to get all the way to Altdorf.

    The Ao3E started with the Grand Theoginist’s rejection of Magritta I of Marienburg as empress a few decades before the Vampire wars (1979 Magritta crowned, 2010 Vlad begins the Vampire Wars, 2051 Vlad defeated, 2145 Vlad defeated).

    This game starts ~2200 at the earliest, so more than 50 years after Mannfred’s defeat (hence VC not an in scope faction). No Von Carsteins here (and the models are AoS ones now).

    Although there is that Harkon emblem in the Border Princes. Possibly related to Walach Harkon (who is in exile since 1946) given the chalice. Probably not a traditional VC style faction though - Harkon’s not much of a Necromancer and he’s famous for knightly orders not legions of undead. Maybe a mostly human faction led by Vampires? Will be interesting to see how they play it.

    As for the rest:

    The article is fairly clear about the initial scope being between the WEM and the sea as you say, but GW have also put TOW emblems on their Cathay stuff and given their post-CHS neuroses about things existing without models, I’d be very surprised if they didn’t intend to make models for it at some point. And Cathay is *well* outside the initial scope of the game. Which does seem to indicate they have at least an aspiration to somewhat expand the scope in time (assuming it does well enough to justify it).

    Though that’s likely to be many years off. And IMO we’re still very unlikely to see anything that’s still being sold in AoS.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573010.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573010.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Lord Zarkov wrote:

    Though that’s likely to be many years off. And IMO we’re still very unlikely to see anything that’s still being sold in AoS.



    If we take the most pessimistic position for a moment - purely for the purpose of a reality check - we only know for sure that Bretonnians and Khemri are coming (from the previewed models and renders) and that some currently sold (old) Empire kits while get removed from the AOS lineup and will get a re-release in TOW, even though we do not know the exact extent of that. Everything else, at this point, is either straight-up vaporware or just the vaguest statement of intent to release some stuff eventually. We don't know their intended release model (other than the fact that it will involve some books), and all the speculation about waves, avenues for expansion, setting progression and so on are just castles in the sky. Don't get too excited, don't set yourself up for dissappointment, we still know barely anything, and it's possibly that we won't get anything substantial this year at all, even though it's possible that some sort of release happens later in the year. Until we get more, and more specific and concrete information, at best we can be cautiously optimistic.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573014.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573014.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Tsagualsa wrote:
    Lord Zarkov wrote:

    Though that’s likely to be many years off. And IMO we’re still very unlikely to see anything that’s still being sold in AoS.



    If we take the most pessimistic position for a moment - purely for the purpose of a reality check - we only know for sure that Bretonnians and Khemri are coming (from the previewed models and renders) and that some currently sold (old) Empire kits while get removed from the AOS lineup and will get a re-release in TOW, even though we do not know the exact extent of that. Everything else, at this point, is either straight-up vaporware or just the vaguest statement of intent to release some stuff eventually. We don't know their intended release model (other than the fact that it will involve some books), and all the speculation about waves, avenues for expansion, setting progression and so on are just castles in the sky. Don't get too excited, don't set yourself up for dissappointment, we still know barely anything, and it's possibly that we won't get anything substantial this year at all, even though it's possible that some sort of release happens later in the year. Until we get more, and more specific and concrete information, at best we can be cautiously optimistic.


    Haha that’s fair tbh. It’ll all depend on how well it sells tbh. If it sells badly what you said may well be all we get. Fingers crossed it does well and we get many exciting expansions.

    I’m good though. Will probably buy some TK and will hopefully enjoy using the legends rules for my VC and maybe CD.
    Maybe expand into something else if it takes my fancy.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573034.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573034.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    This game starts ~2200 at the earliest, so more than 50 years after Mannfred’s defeat (hence VC not an in scope faction). No Von Carsteins here (and the models are AoS ones now).

    Although there is that Harkon emblem in the Border Princes. Possibly related to Walach Harkon (who is in exile since 1946) given the chalice. Probably not a traditional VC style faction though - Harkon’s not much of a Necromancer and he’s famous for knightly orders not legions of undead. Maybe a mostly human faction led by Vampires? Will be interesting to see how they play it.


    Yeah there are plenty of Vampires who are not the Carsteins and are active -

    Blood Knights you mentioned - various Strigoi and Necrarchs causing issues. Lahmians being Lahmians.
    Genevieve Sandrine du Pointe du Lac Dieudonné is around - be great to have a mention or two - apparently she does meet Magnus the pious who she claims put his hand up her dress...

    And at some point the Tzars successor gets turned into a vampire - she takes over after the Great war against Chaos

    So be great if they foccussed on the other bloodlines for once.

    Still they bothered writing an entire army book for Cathay - which is sitting doing nothing :( just release that - will sell like hot cakes
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573036.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573036.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573065.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573065.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
    You also have Neferara knocking around pulling strings via her wider bloodline. As the background goes? Who knows how many pale, tragic beauties that eschew sunlight are truly Lahmians?


    Yep hence the Lahmians being Lahmians

    Although they could also have quoted Melissa (Gene's grandsire):
    You hear the same stories over and over. Mostly, yarns about how we didn’t really loose the Undead Wars blah blah blah and are just biding our time before we emerge from our mountain fastnesses and take up our rightful positions as rulers of humanity blah blah blah.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573080.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573080.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors


    https://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Master_of_the_Meteor_Wind_(short_story)

    Lots of cool lore and artwork and hints at units we might get eventually.....for tabletop]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573270.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573270.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Lord Zarkov wrote:


    As for the rest:

    The article is fairly clear about the initial scope being between the WEM and the sea as you say, but GW have also put TOW emblems on their Cathay stuff and given their post-CHS neuroses about things existing without models, I’d be very surprised if they didn’t intend to make models for it at some point. And Cathay is *well* outside the initial scope of the game. Which does seem to indicate they have at least an aspiration to somewhat expand the scope in time (assuming it does well enough to justify it).

    Though that’s likely to be many years off. And IMO we’re still very unlikely to see anything that’s still being sold in AoS.



    In one of the videos on Cathay they discussed how Cathay trade caravans go to the Old World escorted by thousands of soldiers, etc and often have to fight against all manner of threats to get where they are going. To me that's been a hint as to how Cathay gets scoped into the game - they are coming to the Old World (continent) and getting involved in the fight. The maps of Cathay are likely for lore purposes I would guess.

     Mr Morden wrote:


    Still they bothered writing an entire army book for Cathay - which is sitting doing nothing :( just release that - will sell like hot cakes


    For 8e no less, seems a waste of resources.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573563.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573563.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    That Cathay army book was probably just a bunch of stats and a couple special rule ideas for the more esoteric parts of the roster.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573591.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573591.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors OOP kits that are slated to return for TOW. We only know of a few (necrosphinx), but I imagine that it should be pretty simple to say XXX is coming back, but YYY is not.

    I'd love the chance to get some Forsaken, even if they're cartoonishly bad. Since WoC are one of the factions, Im going to be optimistic ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573631.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573631.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     His Master's Voice wrote:
    Creative Assembly were using 8th edition material as a base for their Total War stat scaling.

    That Cathay army book was probably just a bunch of stats and a couple special rule ideas for the more esoteric parts of the roster.


    Apparently not - according to Andy Hall]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573634.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573634.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW, not Creative Assembly. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573793.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573793.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     GaroRobe wrote:
    I wish they'd put out a list of OOP kits that are slated to return for TOW. We only know of a few (necrosphinx), but I imagine that it should be pretty simple to say XXX is coming back, but YYY is not.

    I'd love the chance to get some Forsaken, even if they're cartoonishly bad. Since WoC are one of the factions, Im going to be optimistic
    Is it just me, or did the Forsaken get released and then become discontinued in the blink of an eye? I always wanted them, rules be damned, and I was playing lots of WHFB at the time. But I never got a chance. I would definitely jump at the chance to get a box or two just to paint.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573897.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573897.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     KidCthulhu wrote:
     GaroRobe wrote:
    I wish they'd put out a list of OOP kits that are slated to return for TOW. We only know of a few (necrosphinx), but I imagine that it should be pretty simple to say XXX is coming back, but YYY is not.

    I'd love the chance to get some Forsaken, even if they're cartoonishly bad. Since WoC are one of the factions, Im going to be optimistic
    Is it just me, or did the Forsaken get released and then become discontinued in the blink of an eye? I always wanted them, rules be damned, and I was playing lots of WHFB at the time. But I never got a chance. I would definitely jump at the chance to get a box or two just to paint.


    Forsaken were also always something i'd wanted.

    But then again i also always wanted chaostrolls in plastic and chaos ogres in plastic without the need to rely on ironguts.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573903.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573903.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     GaroRobe wrote:
    I wish they'd put out a list of OOP kits that are slated to return for TOW. We only know of a few (necrosphinx), but I imagine that it should be pretty simple to say XXX is coming back, but YYY is not.

    I'd love the chance to get some Forsaken, even if they're cartoonishly bad. Since WoC are one of the factions, Im going to be optimistic


    I too would be interested to know, because I want to know which kits are being redone.

    Bretonnia's kits are overall pretty great imo. But the baseline Tomb kings really suck. I feel like if they just bring them back rather than a new kit Tomb Kings will be a pretty niche faction again. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573907.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573907.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     KidCthulhu wrote:
     GaroRobe wrote:
    I wish they'd put out a list of OOP kits that are slated to return for TOW. We only know of a few (necrosphinx), but I imagine that it should be pretty simple to say XXX is coming back, but YYY is not.

    I'd love the chance to get some Forsaken, even if they're cartoonishly bad. Since WoC are one of the factions, Im going to be optimistic
    Is it just me, or did the Forsaken get released and then become discontinued in the blink of an eye? I always wanted them, rules be damned, and I was playing lots of WHFB at the time. But I never got a chance. I would definitely jump at the chance to get a box or two just to paint.


    It's not just you. I found it odd at the time that Warriors of Chaos got ported into AoS with I think their entire plastic range (albeit split up into different factions), but that specific plastic kit got dropped in spite of how recent it was. I want to say I understand. Forsaken had bad rules and no reason to exist, and the models assembled as intended weren't great. But GW kept a lot of worse plastic kits in production. I can only assume that the kit's sales must have been truly abysmal if GW would rather abandon it instead of spending time and money casting up more of those sprues.

    Which is a shame. I thought as (mutation) bits for other models Forsaken were actually nice. I never got around to buying a box because of how quickly it was discontinued.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573920.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573920.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Geifer wrote:
     KidCthulhu wrote:
     GaroRobe wrote:
    I wish they'd put out a list of OOP kits that are slated to return for TOW. We only know of a few (necrosphinx), but I imagine that it should be pretty simple to say XXX is coming back, but YYY is not.

    I'd love the chance to get some Forsaken, even if they're cartoonishly bad. Since WoC are one of the factions, Im going to be optimistic
    Is it just me, or did the Forsaken get released and then become discontinued in the blink of an eye? I always wanted them, rules be damned, and I was playing lots of WHFB at the time. But I never got a chance. I would definitely jump at the chance to get a box or two just to paint.


    It's not just you. I found it odd at the time that Warriors of Chaos got ported into AoS with I think their entire plastic range (albeit split up into different factions), but that specific plastic kit got dropped in spite of how recent it was. I want to say I understand. Forsaken had bad rules and no reason to exist, and the models assembled as intended weren't great. But GW kept a lot of worse plastic kits in production. I can only assume that the kit's sales must have been truly abysmal if GW would rather abandon it instead of spending time and money casting up more of those sprues.

    Which is a shame. I thought as (mutation) bits for other models Forsaken were actually nice. I never got around to buying a box because of how quickly it was discontinued.


    I have actually seen a lot of people say they wanted or liked the Forsaken, but none has ever buy them.
    Never seen the kit built in person, and I don’t even think I seen it pop up off GW website for painting or videos.
    Seems like it was potentially just a very niche desire for even GW to keep around. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573933.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573933.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Apple fox wrote:
     Geifer wrote:
     KidCthulhu wrote:
     GaroRobe wrote:
    I wish they'd put out a list of OOP kits that are slated to return for TOW. We only know of a few (necrosphinx), but I imagine that it should be pretty simple to say XXX is coming back, but YYY is not.

    I'd love the chance to get some Forsaken, even if they're cartoonishly bad. Since WoC are one of the factions, Im going to be optimistic
    Is it just me, or did the Forsaken get released and then become discontinued in the blink of an eye? I always wanted them, rules be damned, and I was playing lots of WHFB at the time. But I never got a chance. I would definitely jump at the chance to get a box or two just to paint.


    It's not just you. I found it odd at the time that Warriors of Chaos got ported into AoS with I think their entire plastic range (albeit split up into different factions), but that specific plastic kit got dropped in spite of how recent it was. I want to say I understand. Forsaken had bad rules and no reason to exist, and the models assembled as intended weren't great. But GW kept a lot of worse plastic kits in production. I can only assume that the kit's sales must have been truly abysmal if GW would rather abandon it instead of spending time and money casting up more of those sprues.

    Which is a shame. I thought as (mutation) bits for other models Forsaken were actually nice. I never got around to buying a box because of how quickly it was discontinued.


    I have actually seen a lot of people say they wanted or liked the Forsaken, but none has ever buy them.
    Never seen the kit built in person, and I don’t even think I seen it pop up off GW website for painting or videos.
    Seems like it was potentially just a very niche desire for even GW to keep around.


    When they were released Forsaken also had the dubious benefit of a new and improved price point that people had not gotten used to yet. Not sure if it was 40€ for ten models, or 45€ like Witch Elves, but around here the consensus was that the models were definitely not worth that much. They were a bit ahead of their time. That kind of price only really got more common after AoS was released. Someone has to be first, of course, but I think it's safe to say that Forsaken didn't do a good enough job of winning people over despite the price.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573946.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11573946.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors that kit...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11574528.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11574528.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors reddit

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578579.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578579.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Matrindur wrote:
    No idea how that happened but apperantly somebody found a new Bretonnian Pegasus? sprue at a car boot sale for £1.


    Looking great, thank you for sharing! This seems to be a hero on Pegasus, I guess the "regular" old ones will go back into production as they were. Nothing wrong with that, they were great and have aged well.

    There is no way in hell this got found at a car boot sale. A dumb cover story, but some cover story I guess. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578583.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578583.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors gw...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578604.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578604.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW sold at least 2 of those boxes

    The standard models weren't that great, but some of the bitz were, and mixed with the old mutation sprue, spawns bitz and other weapons from other units, you could have some decent-ish looking minis!]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578608.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578608.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Darnok wrote:
    There is no way in hell this got found at a car boot sale. A dumb cover story, but some cover story I guess.
    well, they guy posting that on facebook seems legit being just a guy buying stuff and asked what there what this all is.
    he also "bought" and old Khemri Chariot and an new/unknown Flash Eater frame

    so could be the dumpster diver selling stuff off without knowing what they have gotten, or this is a very good and thought thru cover story]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578620.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578620.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578626.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578626.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    So might be just a single Pegasus frame, a single horse frame and a single rider frame sold various combinations to make heroes and cavalry ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578632.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578632.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW acknowledges the leak with a Warhammer Community article showing off the model, and a new plastic Tomb Kings model as well out of commitment to equality.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578637.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578637.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578644.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578644.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    he also "bought" and old Khemri Chariot and an new/unknown Flash Eater frame


    I really hope that doesn't mean they're bringing back the old tomb kings, those models really need a refresh.

    This gives me some hope though, my dream would be that at least bretonnia and tk are completely refreshed, although I think a plastic character each and the rest being ancient models is more likely ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578675.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578675.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578676.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578676.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors

    I really hope that doesn't mean they're bringing back the old tomb kings, those models really need a refresh.

    This gives me some hope though, my dream would be that at least bretonnia and tk are completely refreshed, although I think a plastic character each and the rest being ancient models is more likely


    Assuming that the previewed artwork matches the models, suggests that either the 6E Chariots are being brought back, or that the new ones are almost identical even down to the details.
    I really hope that doesn't extend to the basic Skeletons and Horsemen though, because at that point you can at least splice the modern elements onto the old Chariot frame.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578679.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578679.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW is very likely to try and sell the sucky old skeletons again. Paranoia aside, it should be in GW's interest to at least do something about all these sprues from the 90s and early 00s that have so much wasted space. Multiple issues of four skeletons to a sprue with lots of empty space and a barebones upgrade sprue just to complete one regiment box can't be an efficient use of their injection machine time.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578683.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578683.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I’m a bretonnia player myself, but I think, like in previous editions, it’s a niche army, a lot of people who are going to buy in will drop out fast.

    IMO, for the old world to succeed we need to see support for Greenskins, Empire, and High Elves - those will like be the biggest factions.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578735.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578735.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Grail Seeker wrote:
    I’m still amused we haven’t seen any new sculpts for anything besides Bret’s and Tomb Kings.

    I’m a bretonnia player myself, but I think, like in previous editions, it’s a niche army, a lot of people who are going to buy in will drop out fast.

    IMO, for the old world to succeed we need to see support for Greenskins, Empire, and High Elves - those will like be the biggest factions.


    Im still a little baffled as to why they didn't repackage and rebase all of the brilliant new age of sigmar stuff that are remakes of fantasy models, like the lizardmen, chaos warriors, goblin and vampire stuff. That way you could have a bunch of shiny new armies on launch and allow aos players to easily use their army in another game system, as opposed to what seems like a few new characters and old models returning, and then a slow drip feed of new stuff.

    I wonder if Kislev and Cathay are still planned also, they were mentioned like 5 years ago and since then nothing]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578748.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578748.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW is going to enter an odd time with AoS and Old World because in a sense they want to run them as two fully separate product lines, development studios and entities.

    However because of the history between them and the realities of players they are going to be anything but. In fact the only thing that's going to be a minor problem is one being on round and the other on square bases and since a LOT of troops in Old World will be on movement trays anyway; people are going to use AoS in Old World and vis versa.

    I wouldn't even be surprised if its done way more than 30K crossovers. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578752.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578752.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Overread wrote:
    GW is going to enter an odd time with AoS and Old World because in a sense they want to run them as two fully separate product lines, development studios and entities.

    However because of the history between them and the realities of players they are going to be anything but. In fact the only thing that's going to be a minor problem is one being on round and the other on square bases and since a LOT of troops in Old World will be on movement trays anyway; people are going to use AoS in Old World and vis versa.

    I wouldn't even be surprised if its done way more than 30K crossovers.


    I think it would have been a great way to boost popularity of the game, I would have definitely adapted my old death aos army to fit in it, but now I don't really have any interest.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578754.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578754.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    James12345 wrote:
     Overread wrote:
    GW is going to enter an odd time with AoS and Old World because in a sense they want to run them as two fully separate product lines, development studios and entities.

    However because of the history between them and the realities of players they are going to be anything but. In fact the only thing that's going to be a minor problem is one being on round and the other on square bases and since a LOT of troops in Old World will be on movement trays anyway; people are going to use AoS in Old World and vis versa.

    I wouldn't even be surprised if its done way more than 30K crossovers.


    I think it would have been a great way to boost popularity of the game, I would have definitely adapted my old death aos army to fit in it, but now I don't really have any interest.


    They probably want to avoid players converting AoS army’s over. Which makes sense from the marketing I think, keeping them separate so as not to have players abandon one system for the other.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578766.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578766.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I'm assuming theres been a limit on how many new kits are being produced for this, so might as well make the most of each sprue. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578767.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578767.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Tamereth wrote:
    Pegasus on a separate sprue makes sense. Then release riders on a separate sprue, empire hero, wizard, bretonian, high elf etc.

    I'm assuming theres been a limit on how many new kits are being produced for this, so might as well make the most of each sprue.


    That's similar to how the 30k Tanks have been done]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578770.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578770.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    at least we are starting to finally see a few bits of evidence this does at least exist.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578772.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578772.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Tamereth wrote:
    Pegasus on a separate sprue makes sense. Then release riders on a separate sprue, empire hero, wizard, bretonian, high elf etc.

    I'm assuming theres been a limit on how many new kits are being produced for this, so might as well make the most of each sprue.


    Generic mounts and monster-mounts sonds very retro warhammer! Would be really cool.

    Right now Im just really glad we finally seen a brand new kit in plastic.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578774.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578774.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    leopard wrote:
    also makes sense from a painting perspective not to have the riders legs as part of the pegasus, so happy there

    at least we are starting to finally see a few bits of evidence this does at least exist.


    It's also interesting to see because a fair few monster mounts from GW have had the legs modelled to the model and the separation has been at the waist. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578788.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578788.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Overread wrote:
    leopard wrote:
    also makes sense from a painting perspective not to have the riders legs as part of the pegasus, so happy there

    at least we are starting to finally see a few bits of evidence this does at least exist.


    It's also interesting to see because a fair few monster mounts from GW have had the legs modelled to the model and the separation has been at the waist.


    exactly, this suggests that same pegasus will have a few different riders possible, guessing a Damsel being one as otherwise armoured legs are armoured legs really

    suspect this is the character one to replace the old metal one and normal ones will be the old kit, at least initially

    will have to blow the dust from my Bretonnians, won't need more of them but you can never have enough]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578789.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578789.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Tamereth wrote:
    Pegasus on a separate sprue makes sense. Then release riders on a separate sprue, empire hero, wizard, bretonian, high elf etc.

    I'm assuming theres been a limit on how many new kits are being produced for this, so might as well make the most of each sprue.


    The fleur de lys design is molded on so I don’t think this particular sprue would work for high elf or empire models.

    Edit: I guess there is only one. In the top right corner. You could be onto something. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578797.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578797.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    specially if this is a smaller release]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578803.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578803.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     triplegrim wrote:
    Someone may have dumpster dived at gw...


    It's England. We don't use 'dumpster'. It was a skip dip.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578834.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578834.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     .Mikes. wrote:
     triplegrim wrote:
    Someone may have dumpster dived at gw...


    It's England. We don't use 'dumpster'. It was a skip dip.


    "Bin dipping", hence the common perjorative against Scousers.

    I assume the reason GW will fight hard to keep the ranges separate is someone doesn't want a political bloody nose if a whole bunch of players switch back to rank&flank.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578914.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578914.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors AoS players likely need to supplement their armies to roll in the Old World Anyways. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578917.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578917.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Grail Seeker wrote:
    As good of a guess as any. But I have a hard time trying to picture how it it could hurt them more than benefit. Especially because AoS players likely need to supplement their armies to roll in the Old World Anyways.


    They don't want you to supplement. They want you to buy whole new army.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578970.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578970.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Grail Seeker wrote:
    As good of a guess as any. But I have a hard time trying to picture how it it could hurt them more than benefit. Especially because AoS players likely need to supplement their armies to roll in the Old World Anyways.


    Eh. Nothing to stop anyone from picking from whichever model line they prefer and use those in their Old World games. It's going to happen even without GW suggesting it. They can go on to pretend there's separation between AoS and Old World models for image reasons, get their money for the models either way and get a few extra sales for square base packs. No harm done.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578993.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578993.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors AoS to TOW, especially when they factor in that TOW will likely draw in a lot of the people who spent the last 8 years online being toxic about AoS the game and the community.
    Will be interesting to see what happens..]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578995.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11578995.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Angronsrosycheeks wrote:
    I am still unconvinced there will be big enough lateral movement of players from AoS to TOW, especially when they factor in that TOW will likely draw in a lot of the people who spent the last 8 years online being toxic about AoS the game and the community.
    Will be interesting to see what happens..


    Pretty much what happened with War of the Ring - at the time it coexisted with Warhammer Battle and there was the exact same kind of "fear" from WB community.

    Game systems were different, and every fan was committed to each in the end. Only reason War of the Ring disappeared is simply because GW stopped supporting the game system (and I guess most LotR fan players would rather play the skirmish version, that was obviously less expensive. A shame, War of the Ring was a very good mass battle game system in its bones).

    As for the miniatures, it's good to have different styles for different game systems. Helps having some variety and all. And yes, nothing is preventing you to play them for the other game is you wish it so. In this case, the miniature style is very similar, so it won't have the LotR dilemna (proportions were too realist because of the movie references and closer to 28mm, and it was really mismatching when you tried to mix them with WB ones in the same army).

    No worry to have here, IMHO.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579094.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579094.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors

    Old World and AoS are the same scale, same design ethos and AoS even uses a large bunch of models from Old World. Lore wise they are connected too.

    The only divide is going to be the shape of the base the models stand upon. With some sculpting design aspects as well - ergo Old World will be designed to rank up whilst AoS only have to loosely link up.
    Though even then Old World still had models that were a nightmare to rank up or would only rank up one specific way without jumbling or clashing.


    Heck if one fails to take off or one kills the other GW could very easily just say "Ok we are stopping support for X, however we'll make rules for all of Y's models in X". For Old World into AoS that's effortless. AoS into Old World would, be trickier and they'd probably pull a "Ok so the world ended then suddenly magic stuff alternate timeline pocket dimension stuff stuff Gotrek got angry and killed the gods of AoS or something and BOOM AoS rolls into Old World in a new age or something go rebase your Stormcast on squares ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579105.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579105.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Overread wrote:

    The only divide is going to be the shape of the base the models stand upon. With some sculpting design aspects as well - ergo Old World will be designed to rank up whilst AoS only have to loosely link up.
    Though even then Old World still had models that were a nightmare to rank up or would only rank up one specific way without jumbling or clashing.


    That's why they changed the base size. That alone will be enough to make AoS miniatures much more comfortable to use in R&F. I was in doubt when it was first announced, but honestly after trying to put previous 20mm square based miniatures on 25mm instead, the first thought I had was "why didn't they do that before when WB was around ?". Well...I know why, it's precisely the same reason people having their old armies on 20mm square base aren't enchanted by the idea. But it's still so much easier to put them in regiments that way.

    And I think the reason we don't see plenty of HH armies in "regular 40k" is precisely because there are more people collecting them for the consistency of the background or the specific game system. I really don't think it's something to fear. Even if people do use them for the "wrong game" or using a mixed batch for conversion sake...miniatures are still being bought, right ?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579124.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579124.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors AOS) and the mass battle game (TOW).
    Thus, GW can ask 10 bucks per Wolfrider or Chosen CW for AOS and 5 bucks (or less hopefully) for slightly different versions of those models for TOW at the same time.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579129.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579129.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    buying AoS models, even if those are former Warhammer Fantasy models, and playing an older Edition is a no-go because it is not "official"

    so there are those that fit perfectly into the line of dedicated model ranges for the games with as little overlap as possible and were the separation is real and need to be there
    while those that are using what they want are doing that anyway no matter if it is "official" or not

    how those things will turn out with certain toxic people returning and trying to enforce the "official" part or want to organise tournaments right away on the day of release will be seen

    and yes, GW will need to have different price ranges for different sized games, but I fear it will end like with War of the Rings or Warhammer 8th, were you have to pay skirmish game prizes for a mass battle game]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579131.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579131.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    tneva82 wrote:
    Grail Seeker wrote:
    As good of a guess as any. But I have a hard time trying to picture how it it could hurt them more than benefit. Especially because AoS players likely need to supplement their armies to roll in the Old World Anyways.


    They don't want you to supplement. They want you to buy whole new army.


    I get that, but I don't think that is how their consumers will act.

    If I love my skaven I won't pick up a whole seperate line because I can't play Skaven in ToW. I just won't play, I still have AoS.

    I]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579149.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579149.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors

    Old World and AoS are the same scale, same design ethos and AoS even uses a large bunch of models from Old World. Lore wise they are connected too.

    First, I disagree that the design ethos is the same, just look at the "old" Freeguild (aka Empire models) vs the new Dawnbringer humans.

    Second of all, and probably more importantly- why should someone with an AOS army go back to playing Warhammer Fantasy the Frankenstein edition?
    They can already play mass combat game with big monsters and powerful magic in AoS, there is no incentive beyond nostalgia if they're an older player with an army that will still work in TOW like skaven or dark elves.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579155.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579155.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Angronsrosycheeks wrote:

    Old World and AoS are the same scale, same design ethos and AoS even uses a large bunch of models from Old World. Lore wise they are connected too.

    First, I disagree that the design ethos is the same, just look at the "old" Freeguild (aka Empire models) vs the new Dawnbringer humans.

    Second of all, and probably more importantly- why should someone with an AOS army go back to playing Warhammer Fantasy the Frankenstein edition?
    They can already play mass combat game with big monsters and powerful magic in AoS, there is no incentive beyond nostalgia if they're an older player with an army that will still work in TOW like skaven or dark elves.


    There are many players who switched to AOS solely because it was the official supported game. As in, they stated clearly that they didn't prefer the rules but followed along like an Apple customer the SECOND a new iphone or other Apple product is released. THEY would wind up coming back. Not to mention the influx of posters on reddit and other social media platforms who have just started gaming and are planning to go TOW whole hog upon its release.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579165.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579165.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors AOS or the "rank and flank" style of WHFB.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579166.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579166.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Also, the chaos dwarf PDF army list so my Legion of Azgorh have a reason to exist again.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579180.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579180.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579181.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579181.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Grail Seeker wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
    Grail Seeker wrote:
    As good of a guess as any. But I have a hard time trying to picture how it it could hurt them more than benefit. Especially because AoS players likely need to supplement their armies to roll in the Old World Anyways.


    They don't want you to supplement. They want you to buy whole new army.


    I get that, but I don't think that is how their consumers will act.

    If I love my skaven I won't pick up a whole seperate line because I can't play Skaven in ToW. I just won't play, I still have AoS.

    I


    ISTR that there will be the Army List rules for Skaven and the other side-piece armies. So we could play them, they just won't get a sexy new Army Book with OP rules like the main-line armies will. Eventually.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579197.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579197.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     SgtEeveell wrote:
    Grail Seeker wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
    Grail Seeker wrote:
    As good of a guess as any. But I have a hard time trying to picture how it it could hurt them more than benefit. Especially because AoS players likely need to supplement their armies to roll in the Old World Anyways.


    They don't want you to supplement. They want you to buy whole new army.


    I get that, but I don't think that is how their consumers will act.

    If I love my skaven I won't pick up a whole seperate line because I can't play Skaven in ToW. I just won't play, I still have AoS.

    I


    ISTR that there will be the Army List rules for Skaven and the other side-piece armies. So we could play them, they just won't get a sexy new Army Book with OP rules like the main-line armies will. Eventually.
    Yup.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     kodos wrote:
    people doing strange things, and locally there are some people really hyped about TOW simply because they now can buy official models to play with the official rules again

    buying AoS models, even if those are former Warhammer Fantasy models, and playing an older Edition is a no-go because it is not "official"

    so there are those that fit perfectly into the line of dedicated model ranges for the games with as little overlap as possible and were the separation is real and need to be there
    while those that are using what they want are doing that anyway no matter if it is "official" or not

    how those things will turn out with certain toxic people returning and trying to enforce the "official" part or want to organise tournaments right away on the day of release will be seen

    and yes, GW will need to have different price ranges for different sized games, but I fear it will end like with War of the Rings or Warhammer 8th, were you have to pay skirmish game prizes for a mass battle game
    I feel like there's a bit of bias here against the player base. Consider that, broadly speaking, there is not a community which wants to play 8th edition. It just wasn't good. But then, what edition to play? Going back to prior ones cuts out new-to-8th units but also breaks a decent number of basic army mechanics, moving forward by modifying 8th involves trying to deal with a number of integral rules elements that were hated and/or just didn't generate fun gameplay.

    So what happens is several sub-communities peddling their own version of how to play WHFB, which may or may not even be an improvement, the already tiny community is fractured, there's no consensus on which version to use, and regardless of which is picked there will be people who do not like certain things and refuse to play unless it is changed.

    When GW publishes rules the community may not like them but it still provides an immediate standard that everyone can be onboard with--we will put up with a lot more we don't like just to have that. The value of getting the whole community on the same page is not to be understated.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579200.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579200.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     SgtEeveell wrote:
    Grail Seeker wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
    Grail Seeker wrote:
    As good of a guess as any. But I have a hard time trying to picture how it it could hurt them more than benefit. Especially because AoS players likely need to supplement their armies to roll in the Old World Anyways.


    They don't want you to supplement. They want you to buy whole new army.


    I get that, but I don't think that is how their consumers will act.

    If I love my skaven I won't pick up a whole seperate line because I can't play Skaven in ToW. I just won't play, I still have AoS.

    I


    ISTR that there will be the Army List rules for Skaven and the other side-piece armies. So we could play them, they just won't get a sexy new Army Book with OP rules like the main-line armies will. Eventually.


    Yeah. Tomb Kings and Bretonnia got the same treatment when AoS came out. Ask any of those players how it went. The unsupported armies will quickly become bland and underpowered and people will stop playing them. Then GW will eventually invalidate the rules they do have. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579217.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579217.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors TK and Bret didn't just get less support, they were outright obliterated as model lines for sale. It's one thing to have just rules support whilst still selling models for another game; and quite another to have no access to models what so ever.

    Even if TK had had the best rules in AOS ever written, they'd still have been a dead duck due to not being sold as models any more. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579220.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579220.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     NinthMusketeer wrote:
    I feel like there's a bit of bias here against the player base. Consider that, broadly speaking, there is not a community which wants to play 8th edition. It just wasn't good.
    your local scenes may vary but there are a lot of people who play 8th or want to play 8th, for reasons and arguments followed by that certain rules made the game the best of all because they prevented cheating or whatever
    than there is 6th as a common standard, even with tournaments and events

    if GW would release something you get a standard everyone follows, so there are no sub-communities of different versions of the game, but everyone is salty because the one game they agree to play is not good
    and this is the reason why the leftovers are toxic, because the game they can agree to play is not the game they want or like

    similar with 40k and AoS, you have people that want to play something else because it is not their game, but they keep playing to prevent the "fragmentation of the community" so no criticism allowed because we all must agree to play the game no matter if you like it or not for the health of the community

    and I can already say that those that really liked 8th, the same as those who currently play 6th, won't be happy with whatever GW is going to release and the "shut up and play" won't create a healthy community but a toxic one]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579252.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579252.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Overread wrote:
    TK and Bret didn't just get less support, they were outright obliterated as model lines for sale. It's one thing to have just rules support whilst still selling models for another game; and quite another to have no access to models what so ever.

    Even if TK had had the best rules in AOS ever written, they'd still have been a dead duck due to not being sold as models any more.


    That is a fair difference. But I still think it is delusional to think the unsupported armies will be able to keep up with those receiving supplemental rules and kits after a book release or two. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579270.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579270.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors 40K or AOS with rules drops every 5 minutes. It’s like HH which has a much slower rules release. Supplemental rules and a couple of book releases for each of the announced supported factions could take 5 years, not a few months.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579325.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579325.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Overread wrote:
    TK and Bret didn't just get less support, they were outright obliterated as model lines for sale. It's one thing to have just rules support whilst still selling models for another game; and quite another to have no access to models what so ever.

    Even if TK had had the best rules in AOS ever written, they'd still have been a dead duck due to not being sold as models any more.


    Are you suggesting that the rule that prevented you from kneeling mid-game wasn't awesome? /sarcasm

    I, for one, am in the court of 'I really only got into Age of Sigmar because that's what was supported'. Chances are that once Old World comes out AoS will be a game I play with my son until he's old enough to figure out how ranks and flanks work.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579345.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579345.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:

    and I can already say that those that really liked 8th, the same as those who currently play 6th, won't be happy with whatever GW is going to release and the "shut up and play" won't create a healthy community but a toxic one


    Being part of that community, I can tell you they actually are more pragmatic and less dramatic than you make them look like. Most are happy for the implying model range's return, and are waiting to see what the rules will be. If they're not to our taste, we'll simply do as we did for all these years : play with the rules we still play to these days.

    Remember, players don't need GW (or anyone else)'s approval to play a game system. They just need like-minded people to play with...and communities for good ol'Battle didn't die or migrated to whatever other game system. They are still around.

    And I'm a member of the "8th edition rules". Don't listen to Ninth, he doesn't know what he's talking about. More seriously, everyone has their favourite edition. Hell some still even play the very first edition of Battle, the one that was more suited to roleplaying games with a dungeon master (which is why they still play it, most likely ). There's no real "best edition ever", it's just a matter of personnal taste.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579867.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579867.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors if the new game is not for you and your group, you keep playing the one version you like but people will be around telling you that you must play the "official" version to prevent the fragmentation of the community (same people that once told everyone why they must play ninth age no matter if they like it or not)

    but most of us are too old now to play something they don't like just because it is official version]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579893.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579893.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Angronsrosycheeks wrote:
    I am still unconvinced there will be big enough lateral movement of players from AoS to TOW, especially when they factor in that TOW will likely draw in a lot of the people who spent the last 8 years online being toxic about AoS the game and the community.
    Will be interesting to see what happens..


    Well, some spent 8 years being toxic about AoS, and some stopped after a year or two and moved on to other things, building up other companies to (try and) rival GW.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579911.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579911.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    people doing strange things, and locally there are some people really hyped about TOW simply because they now can buy official models to play with the official rules again

    buying AoS models, even if those are former Warhammer Fantasy models, and playing an older Edition is a no-go because it is not "official"

    so there are those that fit perfectly into the line of dedicated model ranges for the games with as little overlap as possible and were the separation is real and need to be there
    while those that are using what they want are doing that anyway no matter if it is "official" or not

    how those things will turn out with certain toxic people returning and trying to enforce the "official" part or want to organise tournaments right away on the day of release will be seen

    and yes, GW will need to have different price ranges for different sized games, but I fear it will end like with War of the Rings or Warhammer 8th, were you have to pay skirmish game prizes for a mass battle game


    I think even for GW events TO are generally okay with converted armies using other model ranges as long as it's clear and makes sense. People have made 40k Space Marine armies using Stormcast conversions for years and that's fine. I don't expect anyone to have an issue with using, say, newer Looncult models to represent similar Night Goblin units as long as everything is on the correct base size, and I expect everyone will use the new Seraphon to represent Lizardmen. GW may even encourage such a thing formally - I expect they would rather WFB TOW players buy new AOS models than use their old ones when there's a big difference in the quality of the models as there is there.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579914.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579914.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Seelenhaendler wrote:
    The strict divide of the miniature lines allows for different pricing for the skirmish game (AOS) and the mass battle game (TOW).
    Thus, GW can ask 10 bucks per Wolfrider or Chosen CW for AOS and 5 bucks (or less hopefully) for slightly different versions of those models for TOW at the same time.


    Ah... this is GW. If anything they'll charge MORE for TOW models...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579925.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579925.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Manfred von Drakken wrote:

    Are you suggesting that the rule that prevented you from kneeling mid-game wasn't awesome? /sarcasm


    Why would you even have to kneel during a game of Warhammer?

    Unless you're weak and unfit to rule]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579953.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579953.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lord_blackfang wrote:
     Manfred von Drakken wrote:

    Are you suggesting that the rule that prevented you from kneeling mid-game wasn't awesome? /sarcasm


    Why would you even have to kneel during a game of Warhammer?

    Unless you're weak and unfit to rule


    For same reason in AoS 1.0 that you'd grow a beard if you were playing dwarves.

    AoS gave you bonuses for "fun" stupid stuff cause that's the kind of system it was. It was like Magic the Gathering "Unhinged" only without the serious game alongside to balance it out]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579955.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579955.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lord_blackfang wrote:
     Manfred von Drakken wrote:

    Are you suggesting that the rule that prevented you from kneeling mid-game wasn't awesome? /sarcasm


    Why would you even have to kneel during a game of Warhammer?

    Unless you're weak and unfit to rule


    Don't drop the soap dice!]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579975.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579975.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    kodos wrote:yeah, fully agree, but there is also the part were "others" come in.
    if the new game is not for you and your group, you keep playing the one version you like but people will be around telling you that you must play the "official" version to prevent the fragmentation of the community (same people that once told everyone why they must play ninth age no matter if they like it or not)

    but most of us are too old now to play something they don't like just because it is official version


    Absolute truth. Had an AOS player pull that exact crap with us when we were running a 6th Ed. game at the FLGS.

    Manfred von Drakken wrote:
     Overread wrote:
    TK and Bret didn't just get less support, they were outright obliterated as model lines for sale. It's one thing to have just rules support whilst still selling models for another game; and quite another to have no access to models what so ever.

    Even if TK had had the best rules in AOS ever written, they'd still have been a dead duck due to not being sold as models any more.


    Are you suggesting that the rule that prevented you from kneeling mid-game wasn't awesome? /sarcasm

    I, for one, am in the court of 'I really only got into Age of Sigmar because that's what was supported'. Chances are that once Old World comes out AoS will be a game I play with my son until he's old enough to figure out how ranks and flanks work.


    And you're far from the only one, which proves my point.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579989.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11579989.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lord_blackfang wrote:
     Manfred von Drakken wrote:

    Are you suggesting that the rule that prevented you from kneeling mid-game wasn't awesome? /sarcasm


    Why would you even have to kneel during a game of Warhammer?

    Unless you're weak and unfit to rule


    Maybe to pick up dice or minis that fell off the table?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580176.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580176.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     The Phazer wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    people doing strange things, and locally there are some people really hyped about TOW simply because they now can buy official models to play with the official rules again

    buying AoS models, even if those are former Warhammer Fantasy models, and playing an older Edition is a no-go because it is not "official"

    so there are those that fit perfectly into the line of dedicated model ranges for the games with as little overlap as possible and were the separation is real and need to be there
    while those that are using what they want are doing that anyway no matter if it is "official" or not

    how those things will turn out with certain toxic people returning and trying to enforce the "official" part or want to organise tournaments right away on the day of release will be seen

    and yes, GW will need to have different price ranges for different sized games, but I fear it will end like with War of the Rings or Warhammer 8th, were you have to pay skirmish game prizes for a mass battle game


    I think even for GW events TO are generally okay with converted armies using other model ranges as long as it's clear and makes sense. People have made 40k Space Marine armies using Stormcast conversions for years and that's fine. I don't expect anyone to have an issue with using, say, newer Looncult models to represent similar Night Goblin units as long as everything is on the correct base size, and I expect everyone will use the new Seraphon to represent Lizardmen. GW may even encourage such a thing formally - I expect they would rather WFB TOW players buy new AOS models than use their old ones when there's a big difference in the quality of the models as there is there.


    All of the armies with new aos models aren't being supported for the old world, they'll get day one pdfs and that's it. Seems like a dumb decision to me]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580192.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580192.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Perhaps it is due to corporate politics. They don't want to actively pull from AoS to Fantasy after all the pain they went through to launch AoS by killing Fantasy. You could also make the case that it is to avoid new customer confusion with or perhaps so they don't' have to add square bases back into the skaven/DE/undead kits.

    Best case scenario, The Old World does very well and they reverse course at some point.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580293.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580293.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors AoS models in The Old World by that playerbase, especially when there's ranges like the newer Seraphon who only need a base swap to port straight back into Old World. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580299.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580299.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    JimmyWolf87 wrote:
    The Old World is seemingly targeted at older/ex-fantasy players i.e. folks who likely have a modicum of hobby experience.


    Which is funny as you can find tons of social media posts from new players who've never touched Fantasy who are asking about starting new forces for TOW. I think it's safe to say we can't rule out anything here. Whether GW is marketing it to grognards or not, the customer base is proving to be more diverse.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580429.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580429.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580445.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580445.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580460.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580460.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    if those are starting a game with 30 year old models and invest 600€ for an army will be seen]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580550.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580550.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors LOTR, 40K AND AOS with decade/decades old models, I don't see the issue here except for people who've written this off as an abject failure from the get-go, who are also some of the loudest proponents of "Just play AOS, plebe!!!!"

    I'm letting the dust settle before I make any calls. I'd call that prudent. Writing it off as DOA could leave you with just as much egg on your face as those that said the same thing about AOS.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580592.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580592.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Just Tony wrote:
    People were jumping onto LOTR, 40K AND AOS with decade/decades old models, I don't see the issue here except for people who've written this off as an abject failure from the get-go, who are also some of the loudest proponents of "Just play AOS, plebe!!!!"


    Not sure that's true. Most people advocating to "just play" something else are KoW or 9th Agers in my experience.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580629.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580629.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    There are a lot of people coming from Total War or the older book series and asking for the game

    if those are starting a game with 30 year old models and invest 600€ for an army will be seen

    Nothing previewed so far is even close to 30 years old.

    The oldest models shown to be used for TOW are the monopose Orcs from late 2000. Even if Tomb Kings get their regular Skeletons back, those are based on a kit from late 1998. Both of these are not even 25 years old. Old enough to buy drinks anywhere, but not in their 30s by any means. And if it is just about visual quality: apparently enough people buy the junk Mantic is selling, and those pre-2000 kits from GW are still better looking than that.

    We also do not know if "600€ for an army" is a solid guess for a TOW army. Might be, might be not. People can start at lower levels, you know?

    I don't know, we could just wait for the actual product to be around and form an opinion based on facts...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580713.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580713.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Darnok wrote:
    I don't know, we could just wait for the actual product to be around and form an opinion based on facts...


    But then people wouldn't be able to get their exercise jumping to conclusions.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580733.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580733.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Manfred von Drakken wrote:
     Darnok wrote:
    I don't know, we could just wait for the actual product to be around and form an opinion based on facts...


    But then people wouldn't be able to get their exercise jumping to conclusions.


    Game will come out sometime in 2026.

    Keep jumping lads.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580739.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580739.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/256188148077?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=RSUfjuSCTqm&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=yunk-rv-q9i&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580837.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580837.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    MvR wrote:
    The Bretonnian sprue which was leaked the other day is now on EBay. There is a new, clearer picture of the ‘games workshop limited 2023’ bit of the sprue.

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/256188148077?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=RSUfjuSCTqm&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=yunk-rv-q9i&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY


    Hmm, so what are the odds this will be the 2023 Christmas miniature?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580838.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580838.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Shakalooloo wrote:
    MvR wrote:
    The Bretonnian sprue which was leaked the other day is now on EBay. There is a new, clearer picture of the ‘games workshop limited 2023’ bit of the sprue.

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/256188148077?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=RSUfjuSCTqm&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=yunk-rv-q9i&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY


    Hmm, so what are the odds this will be the 2023 Christmas miniature?


    My guess, and I think this will come out this year, is this is the bertonnian hero from the launch box, which is why it’s in plastic and not resin. If the rumours a true, then we will likely have a new plastic tomb kings model to go with it too. Rest of the box possibly older kits. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580840.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580840.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Darnok wrote:
    I don't know, we could just wait for the actual product to be around and form an opinion based on facts...
    than ask the mods to close that topic and not upen it again until there are some "facts" haven't had anything in 4 years now
    and no, a WC article saying "soon" does not add any facts]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580841.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580841.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    MvR wrote:
    The Bretonnian sprue which was leaked the other day is now on EBay. There is a new, clearer picture of the ‘games workshop limited 2023’ bit of the sprue.

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/256188148077?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=RSUfjuSCTqm&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=yunk-rv-q9i&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY


    Its been pulled, i guess GW got wiff and put a stop to it]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580874.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580874.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Shakalooloo wrote:
    Hmm, so what are the odds this will be the 2023 Christmas miniature?

    A Knight before Christmas?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580884.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580884.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Gert wrote:
     Shakalooloo wrote:
    Hmm, so what are the odds this will be the 2023 Christmas miniature?

    A Knight before Christmas?


    ‘Twas, yes..

    Valete,

    JohnS]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580986.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11580986.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors KoW/9th age and wasn't a fan of either. The fun element was lacking from both but for different reasons. Hoping ToW captures that again and gets people excited to play/start new armies. Otherwise we will be back to our current options we have available.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581069.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581069.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors WHFB experience and unlike 9th Age it wasn't written to be a competitively balanced iteration of the game that sucked all the character and narrative out of the ruleset.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581198.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581198.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    Have you tried Warhammer Armies Project? Many say that it is more true to the WHFB experience and unlike 9th Age it wasn't written to be a competitively balanced iteration of the game that sucked all the character and narrative out of the ruleset.


    The only retro system that seems to have a game a month per player into it, is Warhammer Rennesaince, if you ask me.

    Most wap people seem to mostly be active on fb, and rarely actually plays it.

    Just my impression]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581247.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581247.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    People still play the hell out of 6th though. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581251.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581251.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Ktulhut wrote:
    Renaissance is the only modified/homebrew system that seems to get much play.

    People still play the hell out of 6th though.


    Never heard of Renaissance. And people play a lot of 8th too. It's all a matter about what circle of players you're in and what the locals are interested into, in the end. That goes for all "dead games".


     nathan2004 wrote:
    I don't know about everyone else but I tried KoW/9th age and wasn't a fan of either. The fun element was lacking from both but for different reasons. Hoping ToW captures that again and gets people excited to play/start new armies. Otherwise we will be back to our current options we have available.


    I'll be honest with you : I feel we won't get back to the past days we remember as old Warhammer Battle players, because times simply have changed. Reason why these 2 games felt not fun to you is because they're not Battle and they never were (also they're written with the competitive scene in mind and thinking "tighter rules / less randomness" is better - which is not necessarily the case).

    To me, it's a question of nostalgia and habit : I still have the references of Battle rules and the table of to-hit / to-wound from that time in my memory, everything comes to me naturally. But these rules are not "fun" in themselves, it's the games we played with them that were. And it was mostly a question of enjoying our time with our fellow players.

    I'm a bit worried TOW will actually end up like Horus Heresy : yes, the old players were happy to see the rules were quite faithful to the precedent version, but do we see more players playing in stores and such ? No, because the old players keep playing like they always did for all those years : in their own circles. With Battle being dead and going "underworld", players actually kept playing but also in their own circles. And as recent years keep passing (with their own crisis happening, let's not forget it had an impact on our way to play), people tend to still play in their own circles / echo chamber.

    We don't see much new players in HH because the rules are old, the game isn't easy to learn and take a lot of time just to play. And let's be realist : game habits have also changed now. I'm feeling TOW looks like it will follow the exact same way so far...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581343.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581343.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors HH does well funnily enough with new blood and old blood alike joining in.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581354.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581354.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Not Online!!! wrote:
    Are you sure about that, because locally HH does well funnily enough with new blood and old blood alike joining in.


    Playing in stores, we sure don't see it as much since the first (re)release. At least, that's what I'm seeing in my own local one.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581359.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581359.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors HH because you can't build a functional army without a massive investment into FW or 3d printing.

    You can bet TOW will have similar hurdles, there's no way GW relaunches... did they say 8 factions?... with a full range right off the bat, so unless you have stuff lying around now, you have no real chance to play on the same level as the grognards.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581364.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581364.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    HH locally had a surge in popularity and then it declined into occasionally seeing a couple guys play it once every couple weeks. Most of the people that bought in haven't played at all or don't play actively. I expect the same with TOW.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581484.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581484.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    I've never even heard of Warhammer Renaissance. Going to have to look it up.

    HH locally had a surge in popularity and then it declined into occasionally seeing a couple guys play it once every couple weeks. Most of the people that bought in haven't played at all or don't play actively. I expect the same with TOW.


    That was the rule with WHFB too, wasnt it? For every 5 guys buying the starter set, maybe 1 actually played more than a handful games in his warhammer career... something like that.

    Even fewer actually painted and assembled a 1500 pts army or more, and actually played it. Perhaps as few as 10% of everyone who started up in the hobby, imo. I believe thats why much of the appeal of latter day Mordheim, you can actually get games (done in an hour or two, and assemble a warband in a weel or even less and for a reasonable sum).]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581548.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581548.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581561.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581561.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     triplegrim wrote:
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    I've never even heard of Warhammer Renaissance. Going to have to look it up.

    HH locally had a surge in popularity and then it declined into occasionally seeing a couple guys play it once every couple weeks. Most of the people that bought in haven't played at all or don't play actively. I expect the same with TOW.


    That was the rule with WHFB too, wasnt it? For every 5 guys buying the starter set, maybe 1 actually played more than a handful games in his warhammer career... something like that.

    Even fewer actually painted and assembled a 1500 pts army or more, and actually played it. Perhaps as few as 10% of everyone who started up in the hobby, imo. I believe thats why much of the appeal of latter day Mordheim, you can actually get games (done in an hour or two, and assemble a warband in a weel or even less and for a reasonable sum).


    I think that was probably one of those things that was highly dependent on your area. When it still had "main game" status there were many areas where there were active and thriving communities regularly playing the game with its own dedicated night of the week at the local hobby shop, similar to 40k. There were also areas where nobody touched it at all. I have encountered both types of areas in my time. Horus Heresy has the same issue as Necromunda, Titanicus, Aeronautica, Blood Bowl, etc. - its not a main game and not what people bring to the store for pickup games, because the likelihood of finding an opponent is smaller than if you showed up with 40k.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581615.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581615.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors Only rule is, you have to discuss stuff with sweeping statements and/or personal anecdotes.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581640.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581640.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Fayric wrote:
    Ok lets discuss every other game system right here.
    Only rule is, you have to discuss stuff with sweeping statements and/or personal anecdotes.


    Yeah. Or maybe you dont understand how to read what we others are writing. Probably more likely, using occams razor, than everyone else incapable of discussing the previous hobby scene we were part of?

    Dunno how that peggyknight ended up on ebay, but I can tell you there is no TOW game coming 2023 or 2024. Perhaps gw even saw Total War as competition to their TT game and decided it would be released only as Total War ends its run?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581707.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581707.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     triplegrim wrote:


    Dunno how that peggyknight ended up on ebay, but I can tell you there is no TOW game coming 2023 or 2024. Perhaps gw even saw Total War as competition to their TT game and decided it would be released only as Total War ends its run?


    I’d take that bet any day of the week. GW is not teasing models for something it’s not releasing for 2 more years.

    I bet we see something by Christmas.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581756.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581756.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    triplegrim wrote:Game will come out sometime in 2026.


    triplegrim wrote:Dunno how that peggyknight ended up on ebay, but I can tell you there is no TOW game coming 2023 or 2024.

    And you know this because... ?
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581758.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581758.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     triplegrim wrote:
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    I've never even heard of Warhammer Renaissance. Going to have to look it up.

    HH locally had a surge in popularity and then it declined into occasionally seeing a couple guys play it once every couple weeks. Most of the people that bought in haven't played at all or don't play actively. I expect the same with TOW.


    That was the rule with WHFB too, wasnt it? For every 5 guys buying the starter set, maybe 1 actually played more than a handful games in his warhammer career... something like that.

    Even fewer actually painted and assembled a 1500 pts army or more, and actually played it. Perhaps as few as 10% of everyone who started up in the hobby, imo. I believe thats why much of the appeal of latter day Mordheim, you can actually get games (done in an hour or two, and assemble a warband in a weel or even less and for a reasonable sum).


    That wasn't the case in Central Florida. Even through AOS v1, Fantasy still had 40-50 people per quarter getting together for a tournament. Then we had tournament prep weekends for the Necronomicon and other conventions. Fantasy had less showing up for weekend games, but for scheduled events it was as big or bigger than 40k. It would be tough to learn and get better at the game without playing it somewhat regularly.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581770.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581770.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors HH players than AOS, even post-10th. It largely seems to be an anecdotal thing depending on your area.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581780.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581780.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW did not cover any of the leaked sprues, neither FEC for AoS nor the Pegasus for TOW

    usually we get something to cover such leaks yet either this did not stir up enough people online or there is nothing soon to come]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581793.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581793.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    by now it is kind of strange that GW did not cover any of the leaked sprues, neither FEC for AoS nor the Pegasus for TOW

    usually we get something to cover such leaks yet either this did not stir up enough people online or there is nothing soon to come

    Not really that surprising, both should still take a while until the normal reveal date let alone the release date so it would probably do more "damage" to show them now.
    If it was only a month early GW would have probably made an article but for a few months its likely better to just stay quiet]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581799.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581799.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Darnok wrote:
    triplegrim wrote:Game will come out sometime in 2026.


    triplegrim wrote:Dunno how that peggyknight ended up on ebay, but I can tell you there is no TOW game coming 2023 or 2024.

    And you know this because... ?


    Basing it on the 2 new models we've seen so far, and gws lack of rules and vaporware style rumor releases. Seems like a game that'll be ready in a few years from now.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Matrindur wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    by now it is kind of strange that GW did not cover any of the leaked sprues, neither FEC for AoS nor the Pegasus for TOW

    usually we get something to cover such leaks yet either this did not stir up enough people online or there is nothing soon to come

    Not really that surprising, both should still take a while until the normal reveal date let alone the release date so it would probably do more "damage" to show them now.
    If it was only a month early GW would have probably made an article but for a few months its likely better to just stay quiet


    News release at Nova coming, supposedly.

    https://youtu.be/4t9tYXCl9PI]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581800.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581800.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    TOW is on the list for Nova, news can be anything from "we added a new coat of arms to the map" to "released the following week"

    this is nothing to get excited for or telling us anything, except as Matrindur mentions, if something bigger would be announced at Nova they would talk about the leaked Pegasus, while if anything of substance is further away they ignore it]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581821.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581821.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    by now it is kind of strange that GW did not cover any of the leaked sprues, neither FEC for AoS nor the Pegasus for TOW

    usually we get something to cover such leaks yet either this did not stir up enough people online or there is nothing soon to come


    GW generally respond to terrible potato cam shots of painted minis because (they feel) it risks people thinking, 'oh that looks rubbish, i won't bother getting it when it comes out' so GW tends to release an in focus image of a decent size to combat this

    I think they're a lot less worried about sprue shots as casual watchers just won't pay as much attention to them so only those who were really invested will do more than glance at them (and in this case the pictures were decent, generally in focus and large enough to be loooked at properly not an out of focus shot of a thumbnail)]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581830.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581830.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors FEC again) but they didn't show it until Fest.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581895.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581895.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581920.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581920.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors 40K. They are releasing another main game (epic) within the year. 30K is on life support at this point with no infantry kits at all since launch and not even an FAQ. I don't see them releasing ANOTHER core game (TOW) this year, and I even doubt 2024. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581929.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581929.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors HH is on life support, its had one of the most aggressive release schedules of any Specialist Games product. And thats just it - it *is* a specialist games product. If you're gauging release schedule in comparison to 40k or AoS, I can understand theargument that it might appear to be on "life support", but its getting the same (or greater) support as the other specialist product lines that it should be compared to.

    Now MESBG - thats a game on life support.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581940.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581940.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors MESBG just good new cheap (not GW cheap but wargaming cheap) army boxes for the game

    HH might feel like that because it does not have anything like that "just" got tanks
    so there is a difference between those 2]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581943.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581943.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    I don't know how you say HH is on life support, its had one of the most aggressive release schedules of any Specialist Games product. And thats just it - it *is* a specialist games product. If you're gauging release schedule in comparison to 40k or AoS, I can understand theargument that it might appear to be on "life support", but its getting the same (or greater) support as the other specialist product lines that it should be compared to.

    Now MESBG - thats a game on life support.

    No no, see because there are no plastic Assault Marines it's a dead game. And before that when there was only plastic Mk3/4 and Terminators it was also a dead game. And before that when it was only resin kits it was also a dead game.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581974.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581974.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors And we are veering off topic, yet again. We know that ToW is happening, we do not know when, perhaps we might next month. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581978.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11581978.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Darnok wrote:
    Even if Tomb Kings get their regular Skeletons back, those are based on a kit from late 1998.
    I would imagine that a new box featuring TK vs Brets would be 100% new models and that would involve basic infantry.

    And, speaking just personal preference here, I would damnwell hope that TK get new Skeletons. The old TK Skeleton kit wasn't fun to put together. I put one box together just for Warhammer Quest adversaries. I can't imagine what it would've been like trying to do that for an entire army.

     Darnok wrote:
    And you know this because... ?
    His dad works at Nintendo.

     Midnightdeathblade wrote:
    They've barely released anything for 10th 40K.
    Weirdly, you're right. 10th has had next to no releases since it game out. A couple of EZ-build models from the Levi box out as separate boxes, and then the starter boxes that just re-use those models. We know that Tyranids and Marines are coming soon, but it's been an odd gap in releases given the hype around the new edition. You'd think they'd want to strike whilst the iron is a little hotter.

    I guess with so many spinning plates - 10th, AoS, HH, nuEpic, a new season of KT, ongoing Warcry and Underworlds stuff, neglecting Necromunda, and of course The Old World's imminent (?) release - things are smashing into one another and causing delays.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11582046.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11582046.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I do hope we get new infantry for the Tomb Kings though. Their rank and file are absolutely horrid which is a shame because their other kits are amazing. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11582071.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11582071.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11582073.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11582073.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    triplegrim wrote:
     Darnok wrote:
    triplegrim wrote:Game will come out sometime in 2026.

    triplegrim wrote:Dunno how that peggyknight ended up on ebay, but I can tell you there is no TOW game coming 2023 or 2024.

    And you know this because... ?

    Basing it on the 2 new models we've seen so far, and gws lack of rules and vaporware style rumor releases. Seems like a game that'll be ready in a few years from now.

    So you actually have no clue, got it.


    H.B.M.C. wrote:
     Darnok wrote:
    Even if Tomb Kings get their regular Skeletons back, those are based on a kit from late 1998.

    I would imagine that a new box featuring TK vs Brets would be 100% new models and that would involve basic infantry.

    Grail Seeker wrote:I don't think the box will be 100% new models. At least on the Bret side the old kits are still great and we have already seen some painted up 6th edition knights.

    I do hope we get new infantry for the Tomb Kings though. Their rank and file are absolutely horrid which is a shame because their other kits are amazing.

    My bet would be on some kind of launch box including the BRB and entirely new models, followed by a series of "faction boxes" using a mix of older models and one or two new kits each.

    I hope for new TK skeletons as well, I just have my doubts. The old chariot seems to be coming back, and it has the old style skeletons as crew (plus the old skeleton horses). Together with the bunch of other rereleases we have seen it is not unreasonable to assume the old skeletons might just come back as they were. Would it suck? Hell yeah. Do I believe GW might do it anyway? Sure do...
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11582075.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11582075.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors Has there been any statement by GW regarding the old 25x25 bases?
    Most 20s were rather easy to put in rank and file if you didn't assemble them in a stupid way. I feel it was often the big guys, that were very tight, even on 25mm bases...

    Or is there a one-stop place on the internet where all the confirmed info on TOW is collected so far?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11582096.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11582096.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors Someone overlaid the images and guessed they were ~30mm but I'd avoid rebasing anything until that was in writing.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11582116.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11582116.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Arbitrator wrote:
    Sometimes they also just don't bother. A bunch of Wacry stuff was leaked a month or two in advance (ironically FEC again) but they didn't show it until Fest.


    Hh starter box pic leaked almost year before gw commented on it.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11582123.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11582123.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors Valrak video
    Of course as always shovel salt as needed

  • Release in October already
  • Instead of one starter box with both Tomb Kings and Bretonnians each will get their own box
    • ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11582139.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11582139.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11582141.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11582141.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Matrindur wrote:
    New rumours from the new Valrak video
    Of course as always shovel salt as needed

  • Release in October already
  • Instead of one starter box with both Tomb Kings and Bretonnians each will get their own box


    • I wouldn't object to start collecting like boxes (or something like the old battalions) intended as the way to get into the game. As long as it's on third party shelves and preferably comes with a discount, it should get the job done just fine. And selfishly, I don't mind getting Tomb Kings without having to figure out what to do with all the canned meat if it were a two faction starter set instead.

    And the sooner I can get my hands on some Tomb Kings kits again, the better.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11582150.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11582150.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Geifer wrote:
     Matrindur wrote:
    New rumours from the new Valrak video
    Of course as always shovel salt as needed

  • Release in October already
  • Instead of one starter box with both Tomb Kings and Bretonnians each will get their own box


    • I wouldn't object to start collecting like boxes (or something like the old battalions) intended as the way to get into the game. As long as it's on third party shelves and preferably comes with a discount, it should get the job done just fine. And selfishly, I don't mind getting Tomb Kings without having to figure out what to do with all the canned meat if it were a two faction starter set instead.

    And the sooner I can get my hands on some Tomb Kings kits again, the better.


    I think its likely in the scale of those Middle-Earth Battlehosts]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11582156.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11582156.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11582168.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11582168.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW care if the box content makes a playable army, or even a legal army
    they rather make a new game mode that fits the box rather than making a box that works for the actual game

    Grail Seeker wrote:
    The only confirmed base change is 20mm squares moving to 25mm.
    not even this was confirmed, just that 25 square is the smallest base size in the new game
    it is still up if all old 20mm ones move to 25mm or if some move from 20 to the next larger one]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11582173.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11582173.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors A easy get that box for each army would fix a big issue fantasy had with sticker shock, plus box bloat.
    A hero with 2 one 3 builds, 30 infantry and an artillery to get a player started for a reasonable price.

    Then can be a 3 box start game easy.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11582176.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11582176.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors as this fits the recent AoS special release boxes]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11582179.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11582179.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584431.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584431.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mr_Rose wrote:
    New sorceress on unicorn looks absolutely gorgeous. Good on the ‘eavy metal team for not edge highlighting every muscle and ruining it.


    She got that beetus feets.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584462.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584462.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors AOS sits on the shelf, and people scavenge what they can to make up their empty slots.

    People like the figures, not so much the backgrounds.

    People are also dusting off their old models, printing more, gathering their gear through FeeBay, etc.

    I double mine through Mordheim, and Warhammer Skirmish.

    Skaven and Dwarf armies are emerging with the occasional Empire, and Chaos coming up third and fourth.

    As an old player myself, I have a small army for use by all comers, so people can get in and step up to the table for a try. As the old days, it doesn't take a hit or two to get them hooked... ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584470.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584470.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584478.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584478.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584492.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584492.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584504.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584504.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584515.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584515.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Tasty and classic fantasy.

    A pity about the resin though. But still.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584591.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584591.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors Inspiring stuff.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584602.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584602.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/08/31/nova-previews-bow-deeply-for-elisse-duchaard/



    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584603.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584603.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584605.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584605.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584606.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584606.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW standards, those are fairly normal looking feet. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584613.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584613.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584622.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584622.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584653.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584653.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors Le Fay...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584656.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584656.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    The best female model ever produced by GW, but that's not a very high bar ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584660.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584660.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584714.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584714.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584719.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584719.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584723.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584723.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584795.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584795.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Binabik15 wrote:
    The unicorn might be the best "horse" since metal Dorghar.


    Nah, that's plastic Shadowfax]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584800.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584800.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584840.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584840.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584847.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584847.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     bong264 wrote:
    I'm still trying to determine the new cavalry base size because that looks like the old 25x75mm base but it also could be the new 30x60mm one?


    Thats a good question. I am not going to make any guesses at the exact size, but she looks too wide to be put into a unit with normal calvary]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584857.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584857.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584866.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584866.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Grail Seeker wrote:
     bong264 wrote:
    I'm still trying to determine the new cavalry base size because that looks like the old 25x75mm base but it also could be the new 30x60mm one?


    Thats a good question. I am not going to make any guesses at the exact size, but she looks too wide to be put into a unit with normal calvary


    From the images shown in previous articles, I am expecting that characters don't join units but instead hang out as singular entities.
    Of course it's extremely possible that all the images are arranged that way to make better photos, but AFAIK every single character has been pictured standing alone thus far.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584877.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584877.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Mozzamanx wrote:
    Grail Seeker wrote:
     bong264 wrote:
    I'm still trying to determine the new cavalry base size because that looks like the old 25x75mm base but it also could be the new 30x60mm one?


    Thats a good question. I am not going to make any guesses at the exact size, but she looks too wide to be put into a unit with normal calvary


    From the images shown in previous articles, I am expecting that characters don't join units but instead hang out as singular entities.
    Of course it's extremely possible that all the images are arranged that way to make better photos, but AFAIK every single character has been pictured standing alone thus far.


    It's worth noting that the 6th Ed version of the Fay Enchantress had a large (for the time) square base even when joining units was definitely a thing.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584880.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584880.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584881.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584881.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584884.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584884.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584886.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584886.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors


    Just the perfect amount of detail and bling on this chick. Not too much and not too plain either.

    Is she riding a monstrous creature at 50x50 Nd if so, is she not rather large, or at least the unicorn is?

    The heroes have always posed next to the units on promo photos for late middlehammer and onwards. How else would the buyer know its a hero?

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584898.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584898.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584939.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584939.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     nathan2004 wrote:
    What model is that behind the mounted captain. The single model, don’t think I’ve ever seen that before.


    Empire fire wizard. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584956.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584956.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     nathan2004 wrote:
    What model is that behind the mounted captain. The single model, don’t think I’ve ever seen that before.


    It was the exclusive model for that box that they used to do for these pre-release army boxes. They were often standard bearers, that one is a Fire Wizard, as Apple fox said. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584962.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584962.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors They actually pop up on eBay fairly often for fair prices considering GW oop stuff.

    I wonder if GW will bring back some of the exclusives now. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584968.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11584968.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     ImAGeek wrote:
     nathan2004 wrote:
    What model is that behind the mounted captain. The single model, don’t think I’ve ever seen that before.


    It was the exclusive model for that box that they used to do for these pre-release army boxes. They were often standard bearers, that one is a Fire Wizard, as Apple fox said.


    Didn't the Empire get both that wizard AND a BSB? I remember them getting a pewter BSB where he's holding the banner up by the very bottom of the post.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585033.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585033.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Just Tony wrote:
     ImAGeek wrote:
     nathan2004 wrote:
    What model is that behind the mounted captain. The single model, don’t think I’ve ever seen that before.


    It was the exclusive model for that box that they used to do for these pre-release army boxes. They were often standard bearers, that one is a Fire Wizard, as Apple fox said.


    Didn't the Empire get both that wizard AND a BSB? I remember them getting a pewter BSB where he's holding the banner up by the very bottom of the post.


    May have been 2 different edition boxes?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585035.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585035.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     MajorWesJanson wrote:
     Just Tony wrote:
     ImAGeek wrote:
     nathan2004 wrote:
    What model is that behind the mounted captain. The single model, don’t think I’ve ever seen that before.


    It was the exclusive model for that box that they used to do for these pre-release army boxes. They were often standard bearers, that one is a Fire Wizard, as Apple fox said.


    Didn't the Empire get both that wizard AND a BSB? I remember them getting a pewter BSB where he's holding the banner up by the very bottom of the post.


    May have been 2 different edition boxes?


    From memory the Metal BSB came out in 6th Edition big army box alongside things like the metal greatswords. The Bright Wizard was maybe the 7th Edition and is...plastic? Can't recall. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585039.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585039.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors BSB like all the other sets.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585046.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585046.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors Valrak video but he heard that The Old World is pushed back to next year with Legions Imperialis taking its original spot]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585081.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585081.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    or the other way, GW is considering IL much more important than doing a 40 years of Warhammer TOW release

    either TOW was not planned to be a big part of the 40 years celebration in the first place (unlike some people predicted) or GW thinks the fan-base of old Epic is much much larger than the Warhammer Fantasy fan-base so to switching them for the celebration is the better choice

    either way, GW does not think Warhammer Fantasy and their fans are important enough]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585090.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585090.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    well yes but actually......

    or the other way, GW is considering IL much more important than doing a 40 years of Warhammer TOW release

    either TOW was not planned to be a big part of the 40 years celebration in the first place (unlike some people predicted) or GW thinks the fan-base of old Epic is much much larger than the Warhammer Fantasy fan-base so to switching them for the celebration is the better choice

    either way, GW does not think Warhammer Fantasy and their fans are important enough


    Well, from what I've seen of models, it seems likely that gw has a IL game. Tow? Probably not. Look for a 2026 release or something.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585146.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585146.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:


    either way, GW does not think Warhammer Fantasy and their fans are important enough




    They have brought The Old World back, something that many thought would never happen, but we still have to moan about something, eh?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585151.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585151.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     triplegrim wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    well yes but actually......

    or the other way, GW is considering IL much more important than doing a 40 years of Warhammer TOW release

    either TOW was not planned to be a big part of the 40 years celebration in the first place (unlike some people predicted) or GW thinks the fan-base of old Epic is much much larger than the Warhammer Fantasy fan-base so to switching them for the celebration is the better choice

    either way, GW does not think Warhammer Fantasy and their fans are important enough


    Well, from what I've seen of models, it seems likely that gw has a IL game. Tow? Probably not. Look for a 2026 release or something.



    So they reveal four new miniatures, three years before anyone can actually buy them, to achieve...what, exactly? The leaked plastic Bretonnian sprue also confirms that new plastics *are* coming, even if said kits are limited in number.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585169.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585169.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Matrindur wrote:
    Just a side remark in this Valrak video but he heard that The Old World is pushed back to next year with Legions Imperialis taking its original spot


    Awkward that nothing at all was released in that spot then ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585175.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585175.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Matrindur wrote:Just a side remark in this Valrak video but he heard that The Old World is pushed back to next year with Legions Imperialis taking its original spot

    Yeah... no. LI getting actually delayed is an extreme outlyer. What gets released by GW is 99% of the time released when it was supposed to be. Why people still believe that something in the next few months can be changed willynilly is completely beyond me.

    triplegrim wrote:Well, from what I've seen of models, it seems likely that gw has a IL game. Tow? Probably not. Look for a 2026 release or something.

    Sure, GW is actively advertising the game already, with pictures of finished models, and we know plastics are in production... for a product to be released in three years? Things that don't happen for $200. TOW is out in the next twelve months, possibly six.

    Sathrut wrote:So they reveal four new miniatures, three years before anyone can actually buy them, to achieve...what, exactly? The leaked plastic Bretonnian sprue also confirms that new plastics *are* coming, even if said kits are limited in number.

    This. We know the model range for TOW is in production already, with the first kits already done - you can not pick up sprues of something that has not be cast yet. Add the active promotion of the whole thing - not vague snippets and maps, but rules and model previews - and you have something to be released in the next months.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585193.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585193.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
     kodos wrote:


    either way, GW does not think Warhammer Fantasy and their fans are important enough




    They have brought The Old World back, something that many thought would never happen, but we still have to moan about something, eh?
    ny now they brought nothing back but just shown pictures of upcoming resin models
    you can call me out when GW finally brings the Old World back, but until that happens, we may call them out for bad marketing and everything else

    but I get it, the old angry grognards would be happy to pay 100€ for an empty book with "we screwed you" on the last page and still would defend GW for finally listening and bringing warhammer fantasy back]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585201.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585201.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Skirmish games are very popular and while Kill Team has Warcry, Necromunda is currently without a fantasy alternative. Both Mordheim and The Old World have the potential to share models and terrain, and together provide enough reason to return to the WHFB setting.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585207.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585207.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    SamusDrake wrote:
    I reckon Mordheim is going to be part of The Old World, and it might be the case that it's being designed alongside it.

    Skirmish games are very popular and while Kill Team has Warcry, Necromunda is currently without a fantasy alternative. Both Mordheim and The Old World have the potential to share models and terrain, and together provide enough reason to return to the WHFB setting.


    Tuomas Pirinen and a few of the other guys from the MH design team did release a photo 2 or 3 years ago with them being in England working on a gw project. Seemed to be just playtesting at the time...

    Did you hear any rumors, or are you just wish listing?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585209.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585209.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
     kodos wrote:


    either way, GW does not think Warhammer Fantasy and their fans are important enough




    They have brought The Old World back, something that many thought would never happen, but we still have to moan about something, eh?


    So just doing something with a part of the old world again means its perfect and all criticism should be avoided, then? ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585210.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585210.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sathrut wrote:
     triplegrim wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    well yes but actually......

    or the other way, GW is considering IL much more important than doing a 40 years of Warhammer TOW release

    either TOW was not planned to be a big part of the 40 years celebration in the first place (unlike some people predicted) or GW thinks the fan-base of old Epic is much much larger than the Warhammer Fantasy fan-base so to switching them for the celebration is the better choice

    either way, GW does not think Warhammer Fantasy and their fans are important enough


    Well, from what I've seen of models, it seems likely that gw has a IL game. Tow? Probably not. Look for a 2026 release or something.



    So they reveal four new miniatures, three years before anyone can actually buy them, to achieve...what, exactly? The leaked plastic Bretonnian sprue also confirms that new plastics *are* coming, even if said kits are limited in number.


    It's his favourite vaporvare theory. He love to prove how wrong he is so nobody ever believes him.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     kodos wrote:
     Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
     kodos wrote:


    either way, GW does not think Warhammer Fantasy and their fans are important enough




    They have brought The Old World back, something that many thought would never happen, but we still have to moan about something, eh?
    ny now they brought nothing back but just shown pictures of upcoming resin models
    you can call me out when GW finally brings the Old World back, but until that happens, we may call them out for bad marketing and everything else

    but I get it, the old angry grognards would be happy to pay 100€ for an empty book with "we screwed you" on the last page and still would defend GW for finally listening and bringing warhammer fantasy back


    Except they don''t release such book.

    I'm sure you donate cash and run your company at negative but gw is in for profit despite what you believe.

    Repeat after me: gw wants profit. gw wants profit. gw wants profit. gw wants profit. gw wants profit. gw wants profit. gw wants profit.

    Now what does gw want? Stijl think they want to throw cash away just for fun of it? ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585211.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585211.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
     Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
     kodos wrote:


    either way, GW does not think Warhammer Fantasy and their fans are important enough




    They have brought The Old World back, something that many thought would never happen, but we still have to moan about something, eh?


    So just doing something with a part of the old world again means its perfect and all criticism should be avoided, then?


    I dunno, I mean people could wait until it actually exists as a product before heaping criticism on it, or on the designers? Maybe it's just me, but being critical of a company because you've got it into your head that they don't care about a product that they haven't even released yet is...not something that I think is productive or reasonable?

    Maybe I'm in the minority here, because I know that there are a fair few people around these parts who will mock you for dare suggesting that you want to wait and see before judging something.

    Crazy, isn't it?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585213.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585213.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors why should we wait with this criticism until something is released?

    tneva82 wrote:

    Repeat after me: gw wants profit. gw wants profit. gw wants profit. gw wants profit. gw wants profit. gw wants profit. gw wants profit.
    and how you make profit?
    by doing nothing and sell it for a high price
    if people the product no matter what it will be, even invest anything, they could just release a re-print of 8th Edition, including all the errors/typos as a collectors edition and people will buy it, and they will buy the book coming after that adds the errata as well
    and GW knows that very well, yet if they think it is not worth doing for a 40 year anniversary event and rather have something else to sell, they think that their profit is with another product and not with TOW]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585221.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585221.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW game. I can only assume it's sourgrapes from a segment of the AOS community who are either scared GW might turn their favour to TOW, or are bitter that the game they spent years insisting needed to die is coming back.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585223.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585223.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     triplegrim wrote:


    Tuomas Pirinen and a few of the other guys from the MH design team did release a photo 2 or 3 years ago with them being in England working on a gw project. Seemed to be just playtesting at the time...

    Did you hear any rumors, or are you just wish listing?


    Just a casual prediction and nothing more, so hopefully this won't turn up on Faeit212 or Chapter Master Valrak along the lines of "I have it from a reliable source on Dak - I MEAN someone who is very close to James Workshop!"

    WHFB, besides the odd model and Hasbro's Heroquest, was never my fancy and I can't see myself pursuing either The Old World or Mordheim when and if they return, respectively.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585227.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585227.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW having success with a lowest afford possible product

    as this would only mean that the quality of the game and models will decrease while the price increase and the situation for those that actually want to play the game will be similar or worse than during late 7th/8th edition

    people should demand a good product and not just being happy that there is something no matter how bad it is]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585228.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585228.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    current criticism is that after years, there is still nothing
    why should we wait with this criticism until something is released?


    Because it takes time to make a good product? Because it's impossible to make a full assessment without seeing all of the pieces?

    Why am I having to explain this to you?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585229.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585229.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW should just give an estimate release year and shut up until they have a good product
    telling every 6 month that they are working on something is useless worse than saying nothing

    PS: and GW plans 3-6 years into the future so if they have something, it will already have a release date, so they can tell us the year
    if they cannot tell us, well it takes longer than those 3 years]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585230.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585230.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    than GW should just give an estimate release year and shut up until they have a good product

    telling every 6 month that they are working on something is useless worse than saying nothing


    How is communication from GW worse than saying nothing?

    Ediit: I think that Arbitrator is correct when they say that there are people who want ToW to fail, at least that's how it seems to me]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585231.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585231.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors an article full of words saying nothing is communication but a waste of time (as saying nothing could have be done without it as well)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585233.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585233.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
     Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
     kodos wrote:


    either way, GW does not think Warhammer Fantasy and their fans are important enough




    They have brought The Old World back, something that many thought would never happen, but we still have to moan about something, eh?


    So just doing something with a part of the old world again means its perfect and all criticism should be avoided, then?


    I dunno, I mean people could wait until it actually exists as a product before heaping criticism on it, or on the designers? Maybe it's just me, but being critical of a company because you've got it into your head that they don't care about a product that they haven't even released yet is...not something that I think is productive or reasonable?

    Maybe I'm in the minority here, because I know that there are a fair few people around these parts who will mock you for dare suggesting that you want to wait and see before judging something.

    Crazy, isn't it?


    The final product may end up being different, but people are allowed to give their opinions on whats been revealed so far and how they think its going based on that.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585234.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585234.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW pattern (if such a thing exists) so perhaps we shouldn't expect it to behave like other GW releases? The unique announcement years in advance gave the whole thing a weird start.

    A release in November seems just as a likely as next summer or even later to me. And I'm pretty sure GW will never announce a game several years from release ever again.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585235.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585235.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    kodos wrote:what communication?
    an article full of words saying nothing is communication but a waste of time (as saying nothing could have be done without it as well)


    You said that the communication/articles on ToW that GW have released is "worse than nothing". Unless all of the information that they have given us is false, this is absolute nonsense, moaning for the sake of moaning, which brings me to...

    Mentlegen324 wrote:The final product may end up being different, but people are allowed to give their opinions on whats been revealed so far and how they think its going based on that.


    Sure, but when that opinion consists of some variation of "GW don't care about the fans of Warhammer"...it just becomes negative noise from entitled moaners, IMHO

    I mean, GW can't win. If they were to release ToW tomorrow the same moaners would be moaning about it feeling unfinished
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585236.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585236.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585244.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585244.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
    kodos wrote:what communication?
    an article full of words saying nothing is communication but a waste of time (as saying nothing could have be done without it as well)


    You said that the communication/articles on ToW that GW have released is "worse than nothing". Unless all of the information that they have given us is false, this is absolute nonsense, moaning for the sake of moaning, which brings me to...

    Mentlegen324 wrote:The final product may end up being different, but people are allowed to give their opinions on whats been revealed so far and how they think its going based on that.


    Sure, but when that opinion consists of some variation of "GW don't care about the fans of Warhammer"...it just becomes negative noise from entitled moaners, IMHO

    I mean, GW can't win. If they were to release ToW tomorrow the same moaners would be moaning about it feeling unfinished


    To a lot of people, what they've shown about TOW so far suggests they aren't committing much to it. When it's taken years and we still haven't seen much, half the armies aren't really involved, it's unclear what if any progression there will be in terms of expanding the setting later on, and even if that does happen it'll be years at the least, no tie in stuff has been even hinted at like novels, and it's going to involve a lot of resin miniatures, it's understandable why some would think they don't really care about it. That's just a valid an opinion as thinking it's all going to be great and no one should say anything negative.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585247.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585247.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I can't believe that the creatives involved in producing the game "don't care".

    When I hear someone say that "GW don't care about the fans" or a variation of this it makes me cringe hard. It's like I'm listening to young teenagers.

    Sorry to anybody who is an actual teenager.

    This is all I'm going to say on the matter, I've said my piece.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585250.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585250.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
    They are a business. Of course they "care" about the product that they are producing, if only because they want it to be a success financially.

    I can't believe that the creatives involved in producing the game "don't care".

    When I hear someone say that "GW don't care about the fans" or a variation of this it makes me cringe hard. It's like I'm listening to young teenagers.

    Sorry to anybody who is an actual teenager.

    This is all I'm going to say on the matter, I've said my piece.


    Wanting to make money from isn't necessarily the same thing as actually caring about it. Plenty of companies release products that evidently haven't had care put into them because all that matters to them is the money regardless of how its done.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585261.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585261.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585339.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585339.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors Time to move on, again. This little circular conversation was not interesting the first time, by the fifth it is just really tiresome. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585368.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11585368.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Bit of a bummer if true, but not at all surprising to see GW refrain from two system launches so close together. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11587658.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11587658.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors 40K edition in 6 months is crazy even for GW.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11587673.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11587673.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Grail Seeker wrote:
    Though I am not much on watching Youtube influencers, someone on reddit said Valtak walked back his earlier statements and said not to expect the Old World until early 2024. Speculation is it is due to NuEpic being pushed back again.

    Bit of a bummer if true, but not at all surprising to see GW refrain from two system launches so close together.


    No reason for GW to rush at this point, that iron ain't getting any cooler.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11587679.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11587679.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Overread wrote:
    Two system launches AND a new 40K edition in 6 months is crazy even for GW.



    I am still very much in doubt that TOW happens this year, personally, unless they do a "soft launch" where a couple things come out in one wave, and then a larger wave comes next year or something.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11587704.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11587704.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
     Overread wrote:
    Two system launches AND a new 40K edition in 6 months is crazy even for GW.



    I am still very much in doubt that TOW happens this year, personally, unless they do a "soft launch" where a couple things come out in one wave, and then a larger wave comes next year or something.


    Given current events, would give them a chance to rewrite several key mechanics, hopefully before they release a physical rulebook. That said I've got my 6th ed one stashed somewhere.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11587777.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11587777.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Overread wrote:
    Two system launches AND a new 40K edition in 6 months is crazy even for GW.

    What other way are they going to break previous profit records and keep the shareholders happy?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11587825.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11587825.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
     Overread wrote:
    Two system launches AND a new 40K edition in 6 months is crazy even for GW.



    I am still very much in doubt that TOW happens this year, personally, unless they do a "soft launch" where a couple things come out in one wave, and then a larger wave comes next year or something.


    Beta rules with a finished rules and models to follow in 2024?

    Logical but totally unlike GW. And it would like 3rd parties and 3D printers get a jump.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11587876.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11587876.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Kid_Kyoto wrote:
    chaos0xomega wrote:
     Overread wrote:
    Two system launches AND a new 40K edition in 6 months is crazy even for GW.



    I am still very much in doubt that TOW happens this year, personally, unless they do a "soft launch" where a couple things come out in one wave, and then a larger wave comes next year or something.


    Beta rules with a finished rules and models to follow in 2024?

    Logical but totally unlike GW. And it would like 3rd parties and 3D printers get a jump.


    Yes, the mental hoops one must jump around to get a 2023 or even 2024 release to be credible is astounding.

    GW is more likely to start a few made to orders and re release old stuff with a FOMO of one month per srmy, before any rules ever arrive and promptly invalidates much of what you just bought.

    I feel that if GW just wanted a quick cash in, why not release an 'amended' 7th edition book or revised 7th, with a few online articles with narrative 500 and 1500 pts. It could be written in a day, and a few changes to the book just for the sake of being able to call it 7th revised (totally not a re-release) would probably keep jerks like me playing the game and getting warmed up for the eventual Tow release. Now its just vaporware if you ask me.

    I've gotten further into 3rd ed 40k and Warhammer renneissance as well as retro 6th and Mordheim, because the living rules releases of GW is either too frantic (40k) or vaporware.

    As for Valraks rumor mongering, I think the 2023 release was just weak sauce to begin with. No way they just postpone a release containing a large rule book and several big armies (brets, tk?). A few months im advance? Nah. No way.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11587884.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11587884.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     triplegrim wrote:

    As for Valraks rumor mongering, I think the 2023 release was just weak sauce to begin with. No way they just postpone a release containing a large rule book and several big armies (brets, tk?). A few months im advance? Nah. No way.


    Not saying whether his 2023 release rumour is correct or not but he undoubtedly has a source with correct information based on how many other rumours if his turn out correct.

    Also not like they just postponed another whole gamesystem only a few weeks before launch right? Of course as far as we know that wasn't done voluntarily but would totally be possible to do for TOW with a few months of time instead.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11587908.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11587908.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11587942.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11587942.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11587951.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11587951.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors The frequency of preview articles increased to monthly.
    Product shots of miniatures as well as battle shots (likely for the rulebook and promotion material) were presented.
    Some rule concepts were presented.
    In the shareholder commentary TOW is listed as coming soon.

    Also, the marketing for the next edition of AOS will likely start in May with a release in July 2024.
    Unless GW doesn’t care if both TOW and AOS release close to each other, that leaves basically the next 6 month or fall 2024 or later as a release window for TOW.

    Further, since the game is already announced, the lead up to release may be relatively short (e.g. a few weeks). Legions Imperial also had a quite short lead up to the original release in August. So there is a precendent.

    In the end, we don‘t know how much the delay of Legions Imperialis messed up the release schedule and wether or not there are other factors that prevent a release of TOW within the next 6 month.
    Although I am looking forward to TOW, I am not too bothered whether or not TOW releases in 2024 or beyond. I have enough stuff on my plate.
    However, my bet would be sooner rather than later for the points mentioned above.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588029.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588029.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588214.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588214.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Seelenhaendler wrote:
    Also, the marketing for the next edition of AOS will likely start in May with a release in July 2024.


    Likely earlier with an announcement at Adepticon in March.

    But yes, one would think GW would be more concerned about an overlap between AoS and Old World players than Epic and Old World players. It doesn't seem likely that they'd prefer to have overlap with an incoming AoS edition just to give Epic a bit of time in the spotlight by itself.

    Still, for argument's sake if Old World had been scheduled for November and GW applied the Epic delay one for one, it wouldn't take more than a delay of two months to turn a 2023 release into a 2024 release with plenty of time before AoS is officially on the radar. Since there's precious little chance than The Old World was coming before November, the difference between a 2023 and 2024 release could be effectively meaningless.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588218.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588218.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Eiríkr wrote:
    Christmas boxes, that is all.


    What is this? A rumor, a hope.... what?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588530.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588530.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Johanxp wrote:
    Eiríkr wrote:
    Christmas boxes, that is all.


    What is this? A rumor, a hope.... what?


    I think Valrak had hinted there would be a TK and Brets box in a video about Christmas boxes, he wasn't sure if they would be Christmas boxes, launch boxes or potentially both as a release near Christmas.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588534.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588534.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Dudeface wrote:
    Johanxp wrote:
    Eiríkr wrote:
    Christmas boxes, that is all.


    What is this? A rumor, a hope.... what?


    I think Valrak had hinted there would be a TK and Brets box in a video about Christmas boxes, he wasn't sure if they would be Christmas boxes, launch boxes or potentially both as a release near Christmas.

    I could be mistaken here but I don't remember those being about christmas boxes. Just that instead of a normal two faction starter each faction would get their own box for the launch]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588555.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588555.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Matrindur wrote:
    Dudeface wrote:
    Johanxp wrote:
    Eiríkr wrote:
    Christmas boxes, that is all.


    What is this? A rumor, a hope.... what?


    I think Valrak had hinted there would be a TK and Brets box in a video about Christmas boxes, he wasn't sure if they would be Christmas boxes, launch boxes or potentially both as a release near Christmas.

    I could be mistaken here but I don't remember those being about christmas boxes. Just that instead of a normal two faction starter each faction would get their own box for the launch


    Yeah it was the timing that was uncertain, if released late Nov/Dec they might end up getting slapped with that sort of context.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588563.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588563.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Geifer wrote:

    But yes, one would think GW would be more concerned about an overlap between AoS and Old World players than Epic and Old World players. It doesn't seem likely that they'd prefer to have overlap with an incoming AoS edition just to give Epic a bit of time in the spotlight by itself.
    pairing Epic with 40k would be similar to pairing AoS with ToW
    So it appears they think a mainline and a sideline do not overlap but 2 sidelines do

    And most rumours for a TOW release this year are based on the 40 year anniversary and the picture countdown]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588573.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588573.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588579.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588579.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    like horrors above it doesn't contain enough typos]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588582.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588582.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I guess some sort of TK/Bret Christmas Box isn't completely impossible to imagine - but it seems like a weird way to launch a new game, and potentially messes with your logistics for the regular Christmas discount boxes. You have a clear product to shift in that period - why not push TOW/TK/Brets to a quiet February/March or something, where the marketing team can give it a decent run up?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588599.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588599.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW wants if they release army boxes without a game
    Yet for what we have seen all the years for TOW it might be exactly what they are going to do]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588600.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588600.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Tyel wrote:
    I guess never say never, but I think if TOW were coming out in the next few weeks, it would have been announced by now. There isn't obvious room in the schedule.

    I guess some sort of TK/Bret Christmas Box isn't completely impossible to imagine - but it seems like a weird way to launch a new game, and potentially messes with your logistics for the regular Christmas discount boxes. You have a clear product to shift in that period - why not push TOW/TK/Brets to a quiet February/March or something, where the marketing team can give it a decent run up?


    Last check in the rumour was a late in the year release of the 2 bundle boxes, core rules and a smattering of re-release kits as a "get you by" with the rest of it rolled out in the new year.

    They've done similar with armies before where you get an armybox November and a release Feb.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588602.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588602.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Tyel wrote:
    I guess never say never, but I think if TOW were coming out in the next few weeks, it would have been announced by now. There isn't obvious room in the schedule.

    I guess some sort of TK/Bret Christmas Box isn't completely impossible to imagine - but it seems like a weird way to launch a new game, and potentially messes with your logistics for the regular Christmas discount boxes. You have a clear product to shift in that period - why not push TOW/TK/Brets to a quiet February/March or something, where the marketing team can give it a decent run up?


    Agreed. Especially about the lack of announcement. Legions Imperialis was announced July 1st for release at the end of August, so you're looking at a probably ~2 month lead time on the announcement. Unless they announceit within the next 3 weeks or so its probably not coming this year. More likely, I think the "40 years of warhammer" thing leads up to a big preview showingoff whatever they got with the announcement its coming next year, rather than an actual release this year. Its definitely not releasing when the 40 year countdown hits 40 - thats 4 weeks away (including this week), very much doubt GW is going to give such little attention to it - that is an insufficient preview window with which to announce something that supposedly includes a launch box - those larger price points usually carry the aforementioned 2-3 month window.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588607.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588607.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    It might not create the hype GW wants if they release army boxes without a game
    Yet for what we have seen all the years for TOW it might be exactly what they are going to do


    I agree that a game to go with the box would increase hype. But check the prices for some of those OoP bretonnia models or the insane prices of some of those tomb king constructs.

    I am fairly confident that GW would sell out of the box regardless. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588622.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588622.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    Tyel wrote:
    I guess never say never, but I think if TOW were coming out in the next few weeks, it would have been announced by now. There isn't obvious room in the schedule.

    I guess some sort of TK/Bret Christmas Box isn't completely impossible to imagine - but it seems like a weird way to launch a new game, and potentially messes with your logistics for the regular Christmas discount boxes. You have a clear product to shift in that period - why not push TOW/TK/Brets to a quiet February/March or something, where the marketing team can give it a decent run up?


    Agreed. Especially about the lack of announcement. Legions Imperialis was announced July 1st for release at the end of August, so you're looking at a probably ~2 month lead time on the announcement. Unless they announceit within the next 3 weeks or so its probably not coming this year. More likely, I think the "40 years of warhammer" thing leads up to a big preview showingoff whatever they got with the announcement its coming next year, rather than an actual release this year. Its definitely not releasing when the 40 year countdown hits 40 - thats 4 weeks away (including this week), very much doubt GW is going to give such little attention to it - that is an insufficient preview window with which to announce something that supposedly includes a launch box - those larger price points usually carry the aforementioned 2-3 month window.

    Not saying a release this year is likely, but
    TOW was announced 4(?) years ago. So why would it need a multi month preview window? In particular, since the game/release is of limited scope, which currently is the most likely scenario.
    Also, the stuff of the last preview will probably be released by the end October.
    If, mid October, the 40 year articles end with a preview of the releases for TOW, there would be multiple weeks for in depth previews before the game launches in November.
    What does the current schedule till the end of the year look like?
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588630.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588630.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Grail Seeker wrote:

    I agree that a game to go with the box would increase hype. But check the prices for some of those OoP bretonnia models or the insane prices of some of those tomb king constructs.

    I am fairly confident that GW would sell out of the box regardless.
    yeah, if they are cheaper than ebay and if those models return

    If it is "just" a special army box like they do now with 1 of each for 150€, not sure if these sell well

    And there are those people who are hyped by TOW because of the possibility that the good old times return with everyone playing the same rules/edition/game and big fantasy tournaments each weekend

    And those won't like models without rules]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588650.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588650.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Seelenhaendler wrote:
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    Tyel wrote:
    I guess never say never, but I think if TOW were coming out in the next few weeks, it would have been announced by now. There isn't obvious room in the schedule.

    I guess some sort of TK/Bret Christmas Box isn't completely impossible to imagine - but it seems like a weird way to launch a new game, and potentially messes with your logistics for the regular Christmas discount boxes. You have a clear product to shift in that period - why not push TOW/TK/Brets to a quiet February/March or something, where the marketing team can give it a decent run up?


    Agreed. Especially about the lack of announcement. Legions Imperialis was announced July 1st for release at the end of August, so you're looking at a probably ~2 month lead time on the announcement. Unless they announceit within the next 3 weeks or so its probably not coming this year. More likely, I think the "40 years of warhammer" thing leads up to a big preview showingoff whatever they got with the announcement its coming next year, rather than an actual release this year. Its definitely not releasing when the 40 year countdown hits 40 - thats 4 weeks away (including this week), very much doubt GW is going to give such little attention to it - that is an insufficient preview window with which to announce something that supposedly includes a launch box - those larger price points usually carry the aforementioned 2-3 month window.

    Not saying a release this year is likely, but
    TOW was announced 4(?) years ago. So why would it need a multi month preview window? In particular, since the game/release is of limited scope, which currently is the most likely scenario.
    Also, the stuff of the last preview will probably be released by the end October.
    If, mid October, the 40 year articles end with a preview of the releases for TOW, there would be multiple weeks for in depth previews before the game launches in November.
    What does the current schedule till the end of the year look like?


    Thing is that GW traditionally doesn't release much in december outside of the holiday boxes, and usually the big release in november is something smaller like a faction launch box (Cadia Stands, Sisters of Battle) or Warcry Red Harvest or the 2nd edition BloodBowl launch box. In fact, the release schedule for November is usually a little bit lighter, comparatively speaking, than other months - probably because GW is aware that people are holding cash in anticipation of holiday battleforces instead of spending freely and they don't want to cannibalize their own sales.

    Launching a whole new army scale game ala 40k, AoS, or HH in November would be a huge departure from their established business practices (which usually limit those types of releases to the summer). Coming hot on the heels of a similar game ala Legions Imperialis and right before Holiday Battleforces would be unheard of - GW manages its release schedule in such a way as to prevent major releases like box sets and such from clustering too tightly and losing out on sales because people blow their budget on other items, they are marshaling their release schedule to try to extract every last penny possible out of the community. I just don't see them launching Legions Imperialis, The Old World, and the Holiday boxes back to back to back in such a manner. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588661.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588661.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW's already overloaded production (Wayland didn't get their Tyranid shipment this week); having that many BIG things all in a row would drain the pockets of customers. Customers have finite cash and if they load too much too often the result is some of those are going to sell poorly not because of anything wrong with the product; but simply because everyone has their wallets burned out. Esp before christmas when everyone will be waiting for the Christmas bundles. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588663.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588663.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588670.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11588670.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors rumours

    Summary:
    Release Q1 2024


    Boxset contents:
    Each box get their own core rulesets (probably means core rulebook in both boxes?)

    Bretonnia: 70+ models
    Big chunk of Men-at-Arms (two units?)
    Big chunk of Archers
    Two lances of Knights
    Unit of three Pegasus knights
    Lord on Pegasus

    Only the Lord on Pegasus will be new, everything else is old fantasy models

    Tomb Kings: 90+ models
    Skeletons
    Archers
    Knights (Necropolis Knights?)
    Chariots
    Lich riding a Dragon

    again only the Lich will be new

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591145.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591145.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591147.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591147.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591151.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591151.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    yet one thing, if it says all models but the heroes are old, "big chunk of models" means not much in that context as compared to the new 5 model cavalry and 10 model infantry boxes, the old 8/16/20 model boxes are a lot
    so 2 old boxes of infantry makes 40 models which is a "chunk" compared to the lates 10 model boxes but still just 1-2 units

    expecting 2 units of 6 knights, 2 units of 16 Man-at-Arms, 1 unit of 16-24 Archers

    similar for Khemri, 3 units of 24 Infantry, 2 units of 8 cavalry, 1 unit of 3 chariots + Lich = 92 models]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591153.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591153.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591154.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591154.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591155.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591155.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
    In that case it would still be wrong as there's already been a new tomb king shown


    Which is going to be resin so likely not in those starter boxes.

    I'm not saying that rumour is correct but they could absolutely make a new Lich on a Bone-Dragon (or 'Dragon' may be a bit of a misnomer and it's some other similar flying dead gribbly as a mount). ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591157.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591157.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors Not sure because my old 4th edition undead book is in store, but there the tomb kings might also have had this option of zombie dragon.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591158.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591158.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591159.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591159.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Shadow Walker wrote:
    Sounds interesting. I wonder what will be the price for the box.

    my guess ~150-200€]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591162.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591162.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591164.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591164.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Astmeister wrote:
    Warmaster had a lich priest or tomb king riding a zombie dragon.
    Not sure because my old 4th edition undead book is in store, but there the tomb kings might also have had this option of zombie dragon.


    Believe it was just 'Undead Hero' on Zombie Dragon, although it was initially alongside the Tomb Kings stuff. Don't think WH:Fantasy Tomb Kings ever got Zombie Dragons as an option after the split from Vampire Counts but there's probably no 'lore' reason they couldn't have one; they've as much geographical access to the Plain of Bones as the Vampire Factions (if not more) and it's not like that's the only way to get one.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    caladancid wrote:
    Old skeletons and men-at-arms is brutal. Those models were dated when they were new.....


    I can't actually believe they'll attempt to re-release those old skeletons. The Men at Arms/Bowmen from 6th, sure. They are, (for some reason) fairly well regarded it seems. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591165.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591165.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    caladancid wrote:
    Old skeletons and men-at-arms is brutal. Those models were dated when they were new.....

    Agree on the skeletons, but not on the men-at-arms. Those were pretty cool and also good for 40k conversions.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591166.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591166.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591167.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591167.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors 4th Edition indeed is mixed TK/Vamps and did include it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591175.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591175.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Just Tony wrote:Is it possible that the TP will be riding a Warsphinx or the like, and that the rumor monger simply mistook the picture?


    Honestly, I hope not, because that's already an "existing" kit, it's an option for the Warsphinx we had. I'd prefer a new kit in each box.

    Astmeister wrote:Warmaster had a lich priest or tomb king riding a zombie dragon.
    Not sure because my old 4th edition undead book is in store, but there the tomb kings might also have had this option of zombie dragon.


    Both Mummy characters and Liches had the option for Monster mounts including the Zombie Dragon.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591176.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591176.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591180.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591180.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591181.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591181.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Not Online!!! wrote:
    Lich?



    Khemrian magic users are Liches, but not the D&D "we stuffed our souls into a device named after a Jewish holy item" style of Liche.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591184.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591184.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    A mummy dragon would be cool, but no way I'm ever buying anything that has the old skeletons in it, no matter how cool the other contents of the box are.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591185.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591185.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591189.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591189.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Shadow Walker wrote:
    Out of pure curiosity - to all people who posted here about old skellies - what was so awful/wrong with them?




    It all comes down to personal taste, really. I intentionally seek them and the previous 3rd Ed versions out for my Undead cause I'm nostalgic to how quaint they are.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591192.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591192.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Platuan4th wrote:
     Shadow Walker wrote:
    Out of pure curiosity - to all people who posted here about old skellies - what was so awful/wrong with them?




    It all comes down to personal taste, really. I intentionally seek them and the previous 3rd Ed versions out for my Undead cause I'm nostalgic to how quaint they are.

    Based solely on that pic, I really like them.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591194.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591194.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors WHFB scaled human bodies. Also very breaky and you have to glue the spine flat end to flat end with like 1 square mm of surface. The melee weapon selection also completely sucks for TK as they're really VC skellies with an upgrade sprue of bows and helmets.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591196.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591196.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    tricky to assemble, easy to break, oversized "generic" weapons did not fit the general Khemri theme, and they were a different scale/size than the actual khemri units

    cavalry and archers had the same problem and those, by the time 20 year old models, were a reason why Khemri did not sell at all in 8th Edition
    as a lot of people wanted to start a that army because of the shiny new elite units and monsters, but everyone expected up to date core infantry like Vampires got

    so releasing the same models that were the reason not many bought into that faction in the first place might not be the best idea]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591197.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591197.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Shadow Walker wrote:
    Out of pure curiosity - to all people who posted here about old skellies - what was so awful/wrong with them?


    They're a 5th-edition kit, designed for a different army. They include classic TK weapons like hatchets or flails. They are fething massive, towering over mortals with their giant heads and gorilla-like hands. This is despite their intimidating bow-legged squat poses and strong mould lines.
    They were horrible in the 6E lineup and were abysmal in the 8E lineup. Now, they're a joke.

    When people say TK had beautiful models, chances are they are talking exclusively about 8E plastics, Ushabti and the 6E characters. Otherwise the range was ancient 10 years ago and not in the good way.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591198.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591198.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors

    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Btw did they not already show updated weapon pictures on warhammer community the other day for the tomb kings?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591200.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591200.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/03/13/old-world-development-diary-revealing-the-weapons-of-war/]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591205.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591205.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591209.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591209.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors and that old models will come back with limited amount of new models added was already said more or less with the WC articles

    but simply because the old models are what they are, a lot of people still believe that there must be new ones]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591210.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591210.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW have already shown us. I guess they don't have to go together but kind of seems like they would be in this box.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591211.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591211.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors very jazzy weapons for mook infantry designed to be fielded in hordes. I think these weapons are going to be the reserve of characters, or maybe some extremely well-equipped elites.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591214.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591214.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591215.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591215.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors I guess from a business perspective GW will also just release the old models and hope for a cash grab from the old Neckbeards.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591219.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591219.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors TK Skeletons.

    What a waste of time...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591221.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591221.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    I thought the bare minimum would be new TK Skeletons.
    What a waste of time...
    who would have thought that getting warhammer back meant to actually get warhammer back, with all the wish listings and downsides.....]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591226.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591226.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591231.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591231.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591233.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591233.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    I mean, eventually the Monkey's Paw has to run out of fingers, yes?

    The great many fingered monkey. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591269.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591269.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Haighus wrote:
    caladancid wrote:
    Old skeletons and men-at-arms is brutal. Those models were dated when they were new.....

    Agree on the skeletons, but not on the men-at-arms. Those were pretty cool and also good for 40k conversions.


    Its funny, just yesterday I was lamenting to myself that I wish I had some men at arms kits so I could kitbash them with some cadians ala Dave Taylors Genswick Rifles to make an Imperialis Militia force for Heresy.

    That being said, I will probably skip these boxes. They seem tempting, because those kits have been in such demand for the past ~10 years, but they are old junky kits that don't carry much nostalgia value for me, and I think long run I'll probably just end up disappointed that I bought them instead of waiting a bit longer for inevitable future resculpts which will be much better in terms of detail and quality and probably scale poorly to the legacy kits.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591293.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591293.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
     Haighus wrote:
    caladancid wrote:
    Old skeletons and men-at-arms is brutal. Those models were dated when they were new.....

    Agree on the skeletons, but not on the men-at-arms. Those were pretty cool and also good for 40k conversions.


    Its funny, just yesterday I was lamenting to myself that I wish I had some men at arms kits so I could kitbash them with some cadians ala Dave Taylors Genswick Rifles to make an Imperialis Militia force for Heresy.


    The new Cites of Sigmar bodies would give a decent similar design.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591296.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591296.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    I thought the bare minimum would be new TK Skeletons.
    What a waste of time...
    who would have thought that getting warhammer back meant to actually get warhammer back, with all the wish listings and downsides.....


    Well, if there was _one_ unit to update out of the entire WFB range, tomb king skeletons would've been pretty high on most lists. Especially with the available factions pared down.

    They were the perpetual excuse: 'I'd start a tomb kings army, except the core units suck' for multiple editions.


    Really, if they're not even going to do that level of minimum effort for the Old World, I don't know why they're bothering.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591298.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591298.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Haighus wrote:
    caladancid wrote:
    Old skeletons and men-at-arms is brutal. Those models were dated when they were new.....

    Agree on the skeletons, but not on the men-at-arms. Those were pretty cool and also good for 40k conversions.


    I liked the peasant archers but never was a huge fan of the men-at-arms (its a bit of a weird thing I know).

    I could have been clearer, my comment was more based on the lack of support to not even re-do the weaker/oldest/most plain parts of the ranges.

    The men-at-arms are nowhere near as painful as tomb kings skeletons both in detail and in the awfulness to assemble.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591302.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591302.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors If it was true, GW would truly have lost it.

    That said: while I think the M@A and knights in the Bretonnian range are fine and stood the test of time, the TK skeletons really need an update. Those were not exactly great back in the early 2000s, and did not age well either. By todays standards they are just bad.

    As with all rumours from Valrak: I believe it when I see it. His track record on the 40K/HH side seems to be not too bad, but in this case... eh, you better be kidding.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591304.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591304.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/14/old-world-development-diary-on-bases-and-the-barons-of-bretonnia/

    The Brets seem to match up to what's painted here.

    2 x 18 m@a
    24 Archers
    3 Pegasus knights
    2 x 6 KotR]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591309.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591309.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    That said, I've been waiting for news if the TK were getting a full refresh or we would see the old range as it was.

    I really, really want to be able to get hold of those ancient skeletal horses again. I brought a fairly large job lot of TK chariots, not noticing that it didn't come with any horses! Plus I'd rather like to mix them with some of the old wargames factory skeletons and finish as much of my undead force off with that oldhammer-y aesthetic.

    It probably sucks that they won't get a refresh- but I'll be happy enough to get my hands on those useful skeletal horses. If they redid them you can almost guarantee they will come with too many knick-knacks stuck to them and chances are they would have half the rider sculpted directly to the horse itself. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591311.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591311.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Darnok wrote:
    Interesting to see how many people take this "rumour" straight at face value.

    As with all rumours from Valrak: I believe it when I see it. His track record on the 40K/HH side seems to be not too bad, but in this case... eh, you better be kidding.


    Not talking about rumours doesn't leave much to talk about.

    Talking about their validity usually just leads to incessantly crapping on the rumourmongers.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591312.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591312.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Darnok wrote:
    Interesting to see how many people take this "rumour" straight at face value. The content of those two boxes sounds ridiculous. If it was true, GW would truly have lost it.

    That said: while I think the M@A and knights in the Bretonnian range are fine and stood the test of time, the TK skeletons really need an update. Those were not exactly great back in the early 2000s, and did not age well either. By todays standards they are just bad.

    As with all rumours from Valrak: I believe it when I see it. His track record on the 40K/HH side seems to be not too bad, but in this case... eh, you better be kidding.


    I don't know what's ridiculous about the suggested content of the suggested boxes. Sticking with Tomb Kings, because I don't have a clue about the fleshy guys, it's three disciplines of Core (shooty, stabby, mobile), a dual kit heavy cavalry/monstrous infantry and a character to lead the army. That's not a bad mix for something GW expects you to buy once to get the core of your army. It has the lure of a new character, sells you kits that might not sell so well individually, and probably steers you to expand into more expensive single kits of monsters and such. Seems sound enough from a marketing and sales perspective.

    The absence of a Prince/King is the only actual issue by Warhammer Fantasy standards, but we have no idea if that dynamic made it into The Old World or if Tomb Kings get different requirements for their leadership to lessen the issues that used to cause.

    I mean, I can see selling old Skeletons for new prices (or at all, really) as plenty of reason to call the suggested boxes ridiculous. However that's no reason to discard the rumor. It's definitely something we should expect from GW. Customer perspective shouldn't be believed to have an impact on credibility.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591316.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591316.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors They were way too big and quite inferior to the 3rd/4th edition version they replaced. Plus the kits had one big flaw (at least at the time), where the sprue had that special weakness and broke easily, all time, at the same spot You know when it breaks with a clean spike/hole. And that weak spot was right in the middle of the shinbones of some of the legs They would break when cleaning mould lines, or after you glue it to the base and pick it up funny later. I was not having fun with those.

    Their only advantage really was that it was designed with the other infantry kit of the time (Zombies, Empire Militia/State troops, Skaven Clan Rats, Goblins, Chaos Marauders, etc) and all had the same design of legs, body, arms and head so all parts were interchangeable. Especially for Undead players, that was a really big plus to just combine anything together.

    I managed to add whatever I had of awful skeletons to my TK when the army came out, making them all archers and calling it a day, not wanting to add anymore of those bad sculpt. From 6th through 8th I had no other core infantry than some archers because the models were just awful and I didn't want to deal with them anymore. Thankfully archers (the TK one at least) were quite nice in-game so it wasn't too bad on that front.

    If those same models are released as the core of the army, oof. Not a great way to draw new players that's for sure.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591319.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591319.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591321.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591321.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Vorian wrote:
    https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/14/old-world-development-diary-on-bases-and-the-barons-of-bretonnia/

    The Brets seem to match up to what's painted here.

    2 x 18 m@a
    24 Archers
    3 Pegasus knights
    2 x 6 KotR

    think MaA were 4 models per frame, so either 16 or 20 in the box, or we see a new command frame adding some models (and weapons)]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591322.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591322.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591327.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591327.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    Vorian wrote:
    https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/14/old-world-development-diary-on-bases-and-the-barons-of-bretonnia/

    The Brets seem to match up to what's painted here.

    2 x 18 m@a
    24 Archers
    3 Pegasus knights
    2 x 6 KotR

    think MaA were 4 models per frame, so either 16 or 20 in the box, or we see a new command frame adding some models (and weapons)


    ,2x18=36 aka 9 sprues of 4. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591330.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591330.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    did we ever had army boxes were models frames/sprues were different from the stand alone release?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591335.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591335.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591337.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591337.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    9 sprues would mean that it is not a regular box content

    did we ever had army boxes were models frames/sprues were different from the stand alone release?


    Several Chaos boxes for 40K only used 8 Beserkers vs the retail box of 12.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591340.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591340.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Darnok wrote:
    Interesting to see how many people take this "rumour" straight at face value. The content of those two boxes sounds ridiculous. If it was true, GW would truly have lost it.

    That said: while I think the M@A and knights in the Bretonnian range are fine and stood the test of time, the TK skeletons really need an update. Those were not exactly great back in the early 2000s, and did not age well either. By todays standards they are just bad.

    As with all rumours from Valrak: I believe it when I see it. His track record on the 40K/HH side seems to be not too bad, but in this case... eh, you better be kidding.


    I understand that logic, but at the same time his sources have been fairly on point this last year. Likewise I think it's become apparent GW has indeed, lost the plot for what they aim to do with old world.

    It feels like when they booted the project off, they aimed to start totally fresh, but the production issues and rammed release schedule left them with nowhere to go.

    Combine with the fact lots of players have existing armies stashed away, so the drive to buy new ones will be low for those, and you suddenly have a hard time finding demand.

    To cap it all off, the expectations and complaints of only 3-4 armies were ready to go at launch might have given them cold feet, so might have realising people won't buy into a new game with hundreds of minis needed for every army from scratch for a new game.

    So it feels instead they're hoping to hit the nostalgia chord, roll out as many old kits as possible and see what bites to mitigate risk and cost. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591341.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591341.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    tneva82 wrote:Well half the reqular box is definitely a thing. Reqular box has x models, start collecting has half.

    Platuan4th wrote:Several Chaos boxes for 40K only used 8 Beserkers vs the retail box of 12.
    having less than retail is something I know

    but 9 frames is an odd number for that, as the retail box would have more, putting it to 40 models with 2 command frames per box which would be way too much for the regular GW box (specially as GW avoids making more than 1 unit from a single box, rather the other way around) and would also limit the price they can ask for.
    People are willing to pay a lot per model as long as the box looks reasonable. Selling 20 for 50€ is easier than selling 40 for 100€

    so either an extra command frame in addition (first time for GW), or that models are not meant to ever get a regular release]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591353.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591353.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors https://www.games-workshop.com/en-FI/combat-patrol-world-eaters-2023

    I can assure you berserkers don't come in boxes of 20.

    Nor can you field more than 10 in unit.

    And you most definitely can get them on your own(provided gw hasn't ran out of stock...again)


    https://www.games-workshop.com/en-FI/combat-patrol-chaos-daemons-2022

    2 kits duplicated. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591354.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591354.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    how is 9 sprues a duplicate of a regular sprue?
    they are not going to cut them in half for the regular box

    so it must be 8 sprues (2 regular units of 16) +1 for that box (which would be something new), or we get a new 2 model command frame with new weapons for an 18 model regular box
    (or worst case there is no regular box hence why there is an extra sprue inside)
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591356.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591356.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Dudeface wrote:
    It feels like when they booted the project off, they aimed to start totally fresh, but the production issues and rammed release schedule left them with nowhere to go.

    Combine with the fact lots of players have existing armies stashed away, so the drive to buy new ones will be low for those, and you suddenly have a hard time finding demand.

    To cap it all off, the expectations and complaints of only 3-4 armies were ready to go at launch might have given them cold feet, so might have realising people won't buy into a new game with hundreds of minis needed for every army from scratch for a new game.

    So it feels instead they're hoping to hit the nostalgia chord, roll out as many old kits as possible and see what bites to mitigate risk and cost.

    I see your point, but this sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. My hope remains this is all much ado about nothing.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591357.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591357.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Dudeface wrote:
     Darnok wrote:
    Interesting to see how many people take this "rumour" straight at face value. The content of those two boxes sounds ridiculous. If it was true, GW would truly have lost it.

    That said: while I think the M@A and knights in the Bretonnian range are fine and stood the test of time, the TK skeletons really need an update. Those were not exactly great back in the early 2000s, and did not age well either. By todays standards they are just bad.

    As with all rumours from Valrak: I believe it when I see it. His track record on the 40K/HH side seems to be not too bad, but in this case... eh, you better be kidding.


    I understand that logic, but at the same time his sources have been fairly on point this last year. Likewise I think it's become apparent GW has indeed, lost the plot for what they aim to do with old world.

    It feels like when they booted the project off, they aimed to start totally fresh, but the production issues and rammed release schedule left them with nowhere to go.

    Combine with the fact lots of players have existing armies stashed away, so the drive to buy new ones will be low for those, and you suddenly have a hard time finding demand.

    To cap it all off, the expectations and complaints of only 3-4 armies were ready to go at launch might have given them cold feet, so might have realising people won't buy into a new game with hundreds of minis needed for every army from scratch for a new game.

    So it feels instead they're hoping to hit the nostalgia chord, roll out as many old kits as possible and see what bites to mitigate risk and cost.


    I'm still under the impression that some GW worker made the announcement on their last day as their petty revenge. Now GW are flapping to pull some promised project out of thin air!

    I totally agree with you though. If anything its why they have gone for Bretts & TKs as the 'starting armies'. Both armies are pretty rare out in the wild, and their is less risk selling a bunch of models they already have available. You'd think Empire would be the first army, being that this edition is being set in an empire focused war. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591379.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591379.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors TK sprue heads and command arms would fit on the (far superior) 7th Ed Skeletons?

    Still a bit Old Worldy in terms of the weapons, but much better than the 5th Ed ones.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591382.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591382.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors TK (Old skeleton) kits have a bad case of Massive Head Syndrome plus exceptionally chunky arms.
    You can do alright using TK shields and Grave Guard weapons, as below. (Note, not my picture)
    However I would also point out, do the 7E VC Skeletons actually matter? They are also OoP, extremely valuable and thus expensive, and likely won't be coming back to TOW. I think you'll have a horrible time sourcing enough of them to make a force.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591384.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591384.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Mozzamanx wrote:
    I tried to splice the kits together a very long time ago and from memory, I don't think it worked very well. The TK (Old skeleton) kits have a bad case of Massive Head Syndrome plus exceptionally chunky arms.
    You can do alright using TK shields and Grave Guard weapons, as below. (Note, not my picture)
    However I would also point out, do the 7E VC Skeletons actually matter? They are also OoP, extremely valuable and thus expensive, and likely won't be coming back to TOW. I think you'll have a horrible time sourcing enough of them to make a force.



    As conversion fodder no.

    But if the upgrade sprue fitted acceptably onto the newer models GW could potentially release the new kits with those ones instead of the older ones.

    Those models were actually pretty nice (if still fiddly).

    Probably unlikely though - hence ‘hopium’…]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591389.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591389.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    9 sprues would mean that it is not a regular box content

    did we ever had army boxes were models frames/sprues were different from the stand alone release?


    Yes. I recall on several occasions they released battalion boxes and battleforce sets that did not match the contents of an individual kit or a multiple thereof. I recall being annoyed by it and having entire conversations with friends about how it screwed up model counts when trying to collect an army to round/rankable numbers.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Platuan4th wrote:
    chaos0xomega wrote:
     Haighus wrote:
    caladancid wrote:
    Old skeletons and men-at-arms is brutal. Those models were dated when they were new.....

    Agree on the skeletons, but not on the men-at-arms. Those were pretty cool and also good for 40k conversions.


    Its funny, just yesterday I was lamenting to myself that I wish I had some men at arms kits so I could kitbash them with some cadians ala Dave Taylors Genswick Rifles to make an Imperialis Militia force for Heresy.


    The new Cites of Sigmar bodies would give a decent similar design.


    It's the wide brimmed men at arms helmets that do it for me though. Suppose I can sculpt some and print them though.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591425.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591425.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591500.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591500.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    And specualtion on price?

    I dont mind there only being 1 new model there at all, according to rumors. A current release of any TOW game will breathe shelf life into whatever Im playing now anyway.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591522.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591522.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors WC article

    But this could be the other way around, that the rumour is based on that article

    For the price, current AoS starter armies or special edition boxes price points are both possible
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591524.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591524.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Lord Zarkov wrote:
    Mozzamanx wrote:
    I tried to splice the kits together a very long time ago and from memory, I don't think it worked very well. The TK (Old skeleton) kits have a bad case of Massive Head Syndrome plus exceptionally chunky arms.
    You can do alright using TK shields and Grave Guard weapons, as below. (Note, not my picture)
    However I would also point out, do the 7E VC Skeletons actually matter? They are also OoP, extremely valuable and thus expensive, and likely won't be coming back to TOW. I think you'll have a horrible time sourcing enough of them to make a force.



    As conversion fodder no.

    But if the upgrade sprue fitted acceptably onto the newer models GW could potentially release the new kits with those ones instead of the older ones.

    Those models were actually pretty nice (if still fiddly).

    Probably unlikely though - hence ‘hopium’…
    Agreed-TK weapons on VC skeletons was the way to go; I've seen a whole army converted that way and it looked fantastic.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591719.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11591719.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    Vorian wrote:
    https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/14/old-world-development-diary-on-bases-and-the-barons-of-bretonnia/

    The Brets seem to match up to what's painted here.

    2 x 18 m@a
    24 Archers
    3 Pegasus knights
    2 x 6 KotR

    think MaA were 4 models per frame, so either 16 or 20 in the box, or we see a new command frame adding some models (and weapons)


    Sp its reasonable to assume 16 to a box will mean 16 is enough for a unit? Personally I never hated on the 6th edition 16 to a box but 20 needed for unit, as I just put a 40x40 base with something thematic on it as a unit filler.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592081.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592081.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592083.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592083.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors WHFB, I could run 12 man Chaos Warrior units and that was 3 ranks of 4 Warriors on 25mm bases. That was the same width as my primary opponent's 5 man Dwarf ranks on 20mm bases.

    EDIT: I was not a fan when later editions declared ranks had to be 5 models wide and suddenly all my movement trays were too small and I needed more warriors to make legal ranks.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592086.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592086.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592093.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592093.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors TK range for ToW. The skellies, archers, horsemen, and chariots all suffer from being older, and just frankly poor, sculpts.

    When they did the 8th Ed update for TK, most of the range looked great, even some of the older models like the Tomb Scorpion and Ushabti (which to this day are some of my favorite GW models ever), which just further exacerbated the difference between the older skellie design from kits like the Tomb Guard and Warsphinx.

    I have about 8K points of 8th Ed TK, and I was prepared to replace every single one of my older warrior, archer, horsemen, and chariot models. GW will save me a lot of money they would otherwise get by not updating those basic skellies!]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592546.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592546.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     godswildcard wrote:
    My brain is having a VERY difficult time accepting that they wouldn’t refresh the core of the TK range for ToW. The skellies, archers, horsemen, and chariots all suffer from being older, and just frankly poor, sculpts.

    When they did the 8th Ed update for TK, most of the range looked great, even some of the older models like the Tomb Scorpion and Ushabti (which to this day are some of my favorite GW models ever), which just further exacerbated the difference between the older skellie design from kits like the Tomb Guard and Warsphinx.

    I have about 8K points of 8th Ed TK, and I was prepared to replace every single one of my older warrior, archer, horsemen, and chariot models. GW will save me a lot of money they would otherwise get by not updating those basic skellies!


    I suspect they will get new models specifically to make new models that are visually distinct (and hopefully better) than the older ones]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592556.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592556.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592565.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592565.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    The problem with these side games is they feel inherently risky to buy into (see AI, twice) and this one in particular feels like its wearing the lack of confidence and internal support on its skin.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592568.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592568.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592569.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592569.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    you waited 20 years for Warhammer to get the update it deserves, what are another 10 if they get it right.....

    I didn't, though. I wrote it off as something dead. [Though... 20 years? I was playing 7th & 8th edition in 2010.]

    The initial previews for this were interesting, but I think we're getting something equally dead.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592580.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592580.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    and yes, a lot of people hope that TOW will be like 6th again, with good written books and the tournament scene that was there]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592582.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592582.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors

    Honestly, the issue isn't the time until it finally comes out. It's more about the now systemic delays with logistic and distribution that is happening worldwide for all companies, not just GW, that is now the new norm in a post-pandemic, climate change dealing world.

    That's what killing the "hype" of new stuff, and I think both customers and companies are still in the process of adapting to this situation. It's better to launch TOW when GW is certain to be able to handle full production of the first wave, rather than trying to do it "in a hurry" and have a lot of disappointed players unable to buy their boxes because it's "temporarily* out of stock"

    *roll a die and add unknown modifiers to know the date it will be available again]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592635.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592635.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sarouan wrote:
    I find it funny all these people talking about TOW as "dead" or "dead on arrival",


    I checked in on this thread to see if there had been any actual news I had missed and the overwhelming majority of the posts seem to be people making things up, believing and reacting to their imagination, and projecting it as some bizarre reality]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592652.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592652.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sarouan wrote:
    I find it funny all these people talking about TOW as "dead" or "dead on arrival", giving that one of the factions that will be released at launch is undead Tomb Kings.

    Honestly, the issue isn't the time until it finally comes out. It's more about the now systemic delays with logistic and distribution that is happening worldwide for all companies, not just GW, that is now the new norm in a post-pandemic, climate change dealing world.

    That's what killing the "hype" of new stuff, and I think both customers and companies are still in the process of adapting to this situation. It's better to launch TOW when GW is certain to be able to handle full production of the first wave, rather than trying to do it "in a hurry" and have a lot of disappointed players unable to buy their boxes because it's "temporarily* out of stock"

    *roll a die and add unknown modifiers to know the date it will be available again


    That seems obtuse. This isn't (from the outside) a 'hurried' project, nor is that the issue. GW's has been in a perpetual state of 'temporarily out of stock' for a lot of products for a good five+ years now.
    TOW isn't going to launch in environment where that magically isn't true any more.

    What's killing the 'hype' is how GW is handling information now, not a nebulous release date. It doesn't really matter if the release it in 3 months, a year or 18 months. The information they've provided is that it went from an implied reboot of WFB, to a small selection of factions of WFB, to a small selection of factions with a handful of new models and a bunch of old kits, which were substandard even at the time they were originally released.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592654.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592654.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     judgedoug wrote:
    Sarouan wrote:
    I find it funny all these people talking about TOW as "dead" or "dead on arrival",


    I checked in on this thread to see if there had been any actual news I had missed and the overwhelming majority of the posts seem to be people making things up, believing and reacting to their imagination, and projecting it as some bizarre reality


    The last three pages have been spawned by a new set of Valrak rumors. Whether you find that enough to qualify as actual news is up to you, but a large part of the conversation has stayed related to that. Which is pretty uncharacteristic for this thread. I'm not sure lamenting the quality of new posts is warranted this time around.

    Here's hoping GW has something new to show during the upcoming Warhammer Day preview.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592667.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592667.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Voss wrote:

    GW's has been in a perpetual state of 'temporarily out of stock' for a lot of products for a good five+ years now.


    No, the problem is worse than that. I'm talking about regular products going randomly "temporarily out of stock" for a long period of time or even pre-orders than take a couple more weeks to actually be delivered at the store.

    It's not something there since "5 years", it something that started with the pandemic and seems to become the new norm now.

    The recent podcast with Ash and a canadian retailer on Guerilla Miniature Game channel is talking a bit about that, interestingly.


    What's killing the 'hype' is how GW is handling information now, not a nebulous release date.


    The real hype is when new products are actually for sale, not a vague preview made years before the pre-order release. This is just noise on the internet made by a handful of fanboyz, it means nothing in the end. It's like we had rumors from Warseer in a time our teenagers couldn't know. What truly kills the hype is when you should be able to buy the new stuff, you just can't because it's "temporarily out of stock" or simply not on the shelves at the day of release because it wasn't delivered yet...and this situation lasts for weeks, or even worse months.

    Though I do agree this is rather silly to talk about it so soon.

    I believe the way Warhammer Community uses its articles to make "previews" at such a ridiculous pace needs to be adjusted to this new norm - like, stop trying to do this weekly. We saw how awkward it was with Legion Imperialis when it was finally postponed from its original release date. Ironically, I think the way GW communicated and released new products at the time of Warhammer Battle when it was around, a couple of decades ago, would be actually more suited now. But that's just my personnal opinion on the matter.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592681.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592681.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sarouan wrote:
    Voss wrote:

    GW's has been in a perpetual state of 'temporarily out of stock' for a lot of products for a good five+ years now.


    No, the problem is worse than that. I'm talking about regular products going randomly "temporarily out of stock" for a long period of time or even pre-orders than take a couple more weeks to actually be delivered at the store.

    It's not something there since "5 years", it something that started with the pandemic and seems to become the new norm now.


    It isn't. Its been longer than that. It was a problem that started during 8th edition and continued into 9th (and still continued). It just became more obvious during the pandemic.
    Their production and warehouse issues existed independently of the pandemic.


    What's killing the 'hype' is how GW is handling information now, not a nebulous release date.


    The real hype is when new products are actually for sale, .

    No, it isn't. 'Hype' is explicitly for pre-release. If a company is waiting until after a product is on sale, its too late.
    Its a weird and vaguely predatory business model, but that's how it works.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592700.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592700.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Voss wrote:
    Sarouan wrote:
    Voss wrote:

    GW's has been in a perpetual state of 'temporarily out of stock' for a lot of products for a good five+ years now.


    No, the problem is worse than that. I'm talking about regular products going randomly "temporarily out of stock" for a long period of time or even pre-orders than take a couple more weeks to actually be delivered at the store.

    It's not something there since "5 years", it something that started with the pandemic and seems to become the new norm now.


    It isn't. Its been longer than that. It was a problem that started during 8th edition and continued into 9th (and still continued). It just became more obvious during the pandemic.
    Their production and warehouse issues existed independently of the pandemic.


    I mean not really.
    GW started to develop a new warehousing and factory setup to cope with their increased popularity that started earlier (probably around 8th edition when Kirby stepped down if I recall right).
    The problem is the Pandemic did three things

    1) It shut down GW for several months which resulted in a massive buy-up of all stock people could get hold of.

    2) It kept GW's production hobbled for many months after until covid safe workpractice could be dropped.

    3) It inflated GW's number of customers significantly.

    The result is that the Pandemic put GW at a disadvantage because whatever stock there was before it, was gobbled up fast during. Then actually overcoming that reduction in stock is hard when your market expands very suddenly and without any warning. GW basically planned for increased capacity with their new factory and warehouse and then wound up using all of it and needing more.


    The problem now is
    1) The cost of everything went up significantly so if GW does try to expand again right now, its going to cost them a lot more

    2) The cost of everything went up, which along with the fact that everyone went back to work; means that GW could well see their market growth reduce or even shrink for a time. We already saw their stocks fall from the early pandemic period because GW's increase in profits reduced which made investors jump ship.

    So right now isn't the best time for GW to start investing in even more factories and setup because it could be that in 1-2 years that market growth shrinks back. That doesn't mean GW did anything wrong; nor that their profits won't be healthy; just that an artificial high might well be followed by a delayed reduction. Again this might just manifest as a much diminished customer growth at some point. Ergo still growing, but slower. Rather than an actual reduction in the number of customers.


    So yeah everyone wants everything back in stock and GW does as well; but chances are now is the time to be cautious with expansion least they end up investing a huge amount into something they end up not needing. Of course the bonus is that GW doesn't use loans for expansion; so if they do invest into it, at least if things scale back GW is just left holding building assets and land rather than being left with expanded facilities and debt. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592703.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592703.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    it just got worse with people having free time and got a lot of money to spend
    mainly US but the 1000$ compensation of everyone started the problems, not the pandemic itself, and not only for GW but in general

    for GW the problems started with their management system switch did not work out as planned, and lock downs, supply issues and higher demand just made things even worse
    and system problems are still ongoing as all those "miscounts" of stock items and showing items as available that are out of stock etc shows

    an aggressive price politic is part of GWs probem solving, as increase the price to a point were demand and production capacities are in line with each other (with the risk that if it is too much, the market collapse, is it did with their chinese adventure)

    for TOW, there is a good chance that instead of a regular pre-order and sale, we might see a made to order campaign as those would be the save way for GW for selling old models]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592790.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592790.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    the problem of certain products being always out of stock online, was there before the pandemic hit


    You're not reading. We are saying pandemic made it worse, and now that is the new norm. Delays in delivery weren't so bad as well before the pandemic. Yeah certain products were "out of stock online" before that, but not to that scale we are talking about since post pandemic situation.



    for TOW, there is a good chance that instead of a regular pre-order and sale, we might see a made to order campaign as those would be the save way for GW for selling old models


    I'm pretty sure they will handle it like Horus Heresy : a distinct brand on their website with some products on "print on demand" basis.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592801.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592801.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW Turnover 2016: £118m (+/- the same as the previous few years)
    Turnover 2017: £158m
    Turnover 2019: £256m
    Turnover 2022: £415m

    Obviously some of this is inflation (i.e. GW charge more for boxes of grey plastic they sell now than they did) - but it also represents a dramatic increase in sales.

    I feel the shortages are due to this. A store having 100 copies of a kit and selling out on pre-orders is good for the store - but annoying if you were 101 in the queue. Or finally decided you wanted in 2-3 weeks later.

    But yes - my lack of hype here is due to a lack of clarity of what GW are really aiming to do. As much as they repeat it, and the evidence mounts up, I can't seriously believe the aim is to try and sell models from 20+ years ago.

    I have two thoughts on the "oh this is just for ye olde grognard, who likely has an army (or two) of WHFB anyway and GW don't expect to sell very much". Firstly - in that case this game is probably dead on arrival from a corporate perspective - because the evidence of GW supporting something that isn't selling is poor.

    The second though, is that if this is basically "here's the 9th edition rulebook, have fun, bye" release - why has it taken years to produce?

    I mean are GW delaying things so they can print ten thousand copies of the old Tomb King Skeleton Warriors and distribute them all around the world? I guess that would be a massive undertaking that would take time. But it also strikes me as commercially insane.

    And yes - one of the biggest advocates of TOW in our group has gone kind of quiet now he's been told his Lizardmen are not meaningfully in it.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592820.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592820.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Tyel wrote:
    I mean its not a precise tool but..
    GW Turnover 2016: £118m (+/- the same as the previous few years)
    Turnover 2017: £158m
    Turnover 2019: £256m
    Turnover 2022: £415m


    And now GW needs several years to see if that £400m remains stable or if it takes a nosedive or soars higher before they can really respond. I could easily see 2023 being up (esp as its a new edition year); but 2024 could start to show reduction or at least reduced growth due to cost of living. A slowdown could well then continue into 2025]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592822.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592822.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW to grow the yearly price increase helps to have increasing numbers to please shareholders while at the same time don't need to sell more

    a reduction is only possible if sales decline in numbers that cannot be compensated by price increase, while in addition every year is new edition year now

    I just don't expect that the numbers will increase on the same level as 2022]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592824.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592824.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Overread wrote:
    Tyel wrote:
    I mean its not a precise tool but..
    GW Turnover 2016: £118m (+/- the same as the previous few years)
    Turnover 2017: £158m
    Turnover 2019: £256m
    Turnover 2022: £415m


    And now GW needs several years to see if that £400m remains stable or if it takes a nosedive or soars higher before they can really respond. I could easily see 2023 being up (esp as its a new edition year); but 2024 could start to show reduction or at least reduced growth due to cost of living. A slowdown could well then continue into 2025

    But its also not like that £400m is the big jump. It looks like that because the years are spaced differently but they have a pretty constant growth of £50m per year on average. Of course I don't know how it actually went as some years are missing here but just by the given years its pretty linear]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592828.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592828.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors And back to the topic... ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592880.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11592880.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    The skeletons are 1990's sculpts, which the WarCom article did say we are getting.

    The base size change has come about because some of those ‘90s and ‘00s models became difficult to rank up


    https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/14/old-world-development-diary-on-bases-and-the-barons-of-bretonnia/quote

    Mantic is going to be making bank on their 2022 not-tomb-king hard plastics at this rate, the 6th edition Bretonnians are great, the 4th edition skeletons not so much.

    On a side note, the images in the article hint at a return to the classic lance formation.

    I'm just happy that some classic minis will be available again so I can buy some new stuff for 6th edition games, highly likely that I'll go for a couple of brettonian boxes, it sounds like a good ratio of units in the box. For the inevitability overpriced resin, I'll look to 3d prints rather than £60 Forge World minis.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11593078.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11593078.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    For the inevitability overpriced resin, I'll look to 3d prints rather than £60 Forge World minis.


    Taking the opportunity to plug Highlands Miniatures here, who have announced a range of STLs for October that make for better Nehekharan stand-ins than the old GW skeleton kit.
    I get that 3d prints are not for everyone, but I suspect these kits are going to be a very common sight in TOW games if the official option is as Valrak suggests.

    Spoiler:

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11593080.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11593080.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors Perhaps they will start selling stuff with mail order troll again.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11593091.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11593091.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Fayric wrote:
    TOW is not only picking up on miniature nostalgia, it also bring back the classic slow paced release of the 90s and lack of information. Good times.
    Perhaps they will start selling stuff with mail order troll again.


    This amused me perhaps more than it should have.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11593141.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11593141.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Mozzamanx wrote:
    For the inevitability overpriced resin, I'll look to 3d prints rather than £60 Forge World minis.


    Taking the opportunity to plug Highlands Miniatures here, who have announced a range of STLs for October that make for better Nehekharan stand-ins than the old GW skeleton kit.
    I get that 3d prints are not for everyone, but I suspect these kits are going to be a very common sight in TOW games if the official option is as Valrak suggests.

    Spoiler:



    Love that design a lot! Between the awful 5th Skeletons and a potential modern kit by GW that will most likely Flanderize it too much for my taste (going by the teasers we got so far), those minis are right in the sweet spot for me!]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11593181.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11593181.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    "Only 2 more weeks until we find out...!"

    Maybe just high hopes, but I am keen tó know what Will happen.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11594291.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11594291.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors how thrilling]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11594314.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11594314.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    2 more weeks until they will tell us the estimate release date
    how thrilling


    Would you rather they didn't tell you or provide any meaningful update?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11594323.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11594323.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    comments on FB/YT/etc. with "soon we tell you more" are worth nothing
    as the last time they told us more, it was an article with a lot of words and no information

    I expect that in 2 weeks there will be another article telling us that TOW will see a release "sooner than we think"]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11594337.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11594337.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW isn't so dumb, and I choose for this to be 2023's occasion to say it.

    That 40th article would have been released in the same week as the Warhammer Day preview two weeks from now. Unless that's the article writer making a mistake, it kind of looks like the thing is supposed to lead up to Warhammer Day. Doesn't have to mean anything for The Old World even if true, of course, but as is so often noted, GW marketing is fairly straightforward. 40 years of Warhammer means Fantasy specifically. Article series starts early in the year and leads up to a point where there just so happens to be a preview show?

    The Old World marketing has not been a stellar effort, to put it politely. It's entirely reasonable to believe that even if Old World gets a preview for Warhammer Day, that it's going to be as lousy as every other one we got so far. But considering the coinciding article series, GW would have to purposely aim for a whole new level of failure if there was no substance to such an as of yet hypothetical preview.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11594361.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11594361.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    ...a beautiful hardback copy of The Old World core rule book. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11594373.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11594373.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Geifer wrote:
    40 years of Warhammer means Fantasy specifically.
    used to be, might also just mean 40 years of "the warhammer hobby"]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11594378.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11594378.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors 40k model for example. People linking the 40 weeks to TOW may be overthinking it a bit.

    If it is a TOW preview, I am ready to be whelmed - a video made up of some quick panning shots of a table setup mid battle featuring 20+ year old plastics, a dramatic montage of half-glimpsed roundtable shots of the new resin Bretonnian and Tomb Kings characters, slow fade-in followed by rapid detail shots of the two new upcoming plastic kits that were semi-spoiled, cut to a black screen as "The Old World" logo/title fades into the foreground, cut to a quick succession of rapid-cuts as dramatic music intensifies, cut to a dramatic setup of the two armies facing eachother down, cut to black screen - "Coming Soon". Maybe they'll be so bold as to give us a release date.

    Then we get to listen to the presenters gush about how great the 20+ year old models are and how nostalgic they are for WHFB for 10 minutes while offering us little additional information of value.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11594395.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11594395.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors MG fans are getting sweaty, since their biggest threat is coming back...Nah, just joking. It doesn't necessarily lead to a TOW release date - though it would certainly be a good opportunity to do so, delays are what they are, can't control much of that nowadays.

    To me, it's quite crystal clear what they want to end that 40 years series with.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11594418.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11594418.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sarouan wrote:

    To me, it's quite crystal clear what they want to end that 40 years series with.


    A Primaris Lieutenant, naturally! ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11594424.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11594424.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11594429.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11594429.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:


    Then we get to listen to the presenters gush about how great the 20+ year old models are and how nostalgic they are for WHFB for 10 minutes while offering us little additional information of value.


    I'm not even sure we would be that lucky. Last time I watched a stream it was for AoS and one guy was hyping it all up and asked the other one had he been working on anything recently. Without anything even resembling emotion was like "No". Never seen a presentation go so stale so fast.

    If they can't get anyone to be excited about "The current best selling fantasy game" (Specifically people hired to BE EXCITED about said game) I'd be highly surprised if they can even get any of them to gush about a re-released game that was last available before most of the current staff were even born.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595659.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595659.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    This parade of awesome articles will culminate on Saturday with an extra-special live reveal show on the Warhammer Twitch Channel. Things kick off at 2pm BST, and there’s a real welter of stuff to unveil: new books and miniatures for Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer Age of Sigmar, a new box and a new faction for Kill Team, and big news for Warhammer: The Old World.

    https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/10/02/warhammer-day-is-coming-and-so-are-all-these-juicy-reveals/]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595757.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595757.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     triplegrim wrote:
    Big news about ToW on 14th october. From WarCom:

    This parade of awesome articles will culminate on Saturday with an extra-special live reveal show on the Warhammer Twitch Channel. Things kick off at 2pm BST, and there’s a real welter of stuff to unveil: new books and miniatures for Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer Age of Sigmar, a new box and a new faction for Kill Team, and big news for Warhammer: The Old World.

    https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/10/02/warhammer-day-is-coming-and-so-are-all-these-juicy-reveals/


    Probably another single character or sprue - maybe a picture or two.....]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595763.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595763.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW posting that there's 'big news' about big news in an upcoming online show. That never really lands well.

    On the upside, we might get to see something for Necron and Ad Mech since winter is coming.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595782.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595782.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595792.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595792.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors NOVA Open?
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595799.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595799.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW liking to play with words, "big news" can mean anything
    from a release date, to showing of the rumoured boxes, the game itself but also just the old Albion Giants as resin model.

    I get exited the day after if there really was something of interest]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595801.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595801.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595817.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595817.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    „Dear Warhammer fans,
    Today, I have good news and not so good news.
    But first, let me apologize for the long wait and the mixed communication since the annoucement of TOW years ago.
    At that time, we knew that there were still many fans passionate about WFB who were looking forward to a return to the Old World, just like us. That’s why we started this project: to bring you Warhammer in the Old World back, including the fantastic lore and art, a great ruleset and of course awesome miniatures to collect and play with.
    However, since we revealed more of TOW at Warhammer Fest in May and the following weeks, the tremendous amount of interest in the game really surpassed our wildest dreams and we are truly humbled by your passion for the setting.
    But it also made it abundantly clear that the scope of the project would fall flat in the face of the expectations of one of our most valued fan base.
    So we made the difficult decision, just like with Adeptus Titanicus in the past, to delay the game a bit further in order to return to the Old World in a way that is befitting its 40 year old legacy and shows that we truely care about the setting.
    Today, I am happy to announce that when Warhammer the Old Wolrd will return, it will eventually support all 17 factions of previous editions which, over time, will receive all new miniatures in plastic in order to refresh the miniature range and to make the game accessible for old fans of the setting as well as for players starting their adventure in the Old World for the first time.
    To make the wait more enjoyable, we will make all WFB miniatures released since January 1st, 2000 available through our Made to Order programm, one army each month starting with Bretonnia in November. You will also be able to download any WFB rulebook and army book released since January 1st, 2000 for free from WarCom, so you can study the setting and play some games until Warhammer: The Old World arrives in 2025.
    Thank you for your passion and continued support!„

    That would be „big news“.
    And after thinking about it, that would be my preferred way of a return to the Old World.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595832.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595832.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Its the 40th anniversary of WHFB and fewer games are being previewed than usual. AoS 4th edition is most likely going to occupy next year's schedule and hype. Both AoS and 40K offerings are probably going to be just the next codex and battletome releases, and Scorpions and Scouts for Kill Team. With a mere single model for The Old World thats not really worth a preview event, and especially bearing the name "Warhammer Day".

    As a great bard once sung, its now or never.


    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595833.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595833.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Seelenhaendler wrote:
    Get ready for:

    „Dear Warhammer fans,
    Today, I have good news and not so good news.
    But first, let me apologize for the long wait and the mixed communication since the annoucement of TOW years ago.
    At that time, we knew that there were still many fans passionate about WFB who were looking forward to a return to the Old World, just like us. That’s why we started this project: to bring you Warhammer in the Old World back, including the fantastic lore and art, a great ruleset and of course awesome miniatures to collect and play with.
    However, since we revealed more of TOW at Warhammer Fest in May and the following weeks, the tremendous amount of interest in the game really surpassed our wildest dreams and we are truly humbled by your passion for the setting.
    But it also made it abundantly clear that the scope of the project would fall flat in the face of the expectations of one of our most valued fan base.
    So we made the difficult decision, just like with Adeptus Titanicus in the past, to delay the game a bit further in order to return to the Old World in a way that is befitting its 40 year old legacy and shows that we truely care about the setting.
    Today, I am happy to announce that when Warhammer the Old Wolrd will return, it will eventually support all 17 factions of previous editions which, over time, will receive all new miniatures in plastic in order to refresh the miniature range and to make the game accessible for old fans of the setting as well as for players starting their adventure in the Old World for the first time.
    To make the wait more enjoyable, we will make all WFB miniatures released since January 1st, 2000 available through our Made to Order programm, one army each month starting with Bretonnia in November. You will also be able to download any WFB rulebook and army book released since January 1st, 2000 for free from WarCom, so you can study the setting and play some games until Warhammer: The Old World arrives in 2025.
    Thank you for your passion and continued support!„

    That would be „big news“.
    And after thinking about it, that would be my preferred way of a return to the Old World.


    Wishlisting.

    But I agree. Any pdf release would be preferable by now.

    I call a 2026 release, and a wet fart at that.

    But who knows.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595839.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595839.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595854.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595854.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    scarletsquig wrote:
    I think the rumour is probably legit, since the official warhammer community article does reference models from the 1990's returning, which doesn't include anything released post-6th edition (October 2000).

    The skeletons are 1990's sculpts, which the WarCom article did say we are getting.

    The base size change has come about because some of those ‘90s and ‘00s models became difficult to rank up


    https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/14/old-world-development-diary-on-bases-and-the-barons-of-bretonnia/quote

    Mantic is going to be making bank on their 2022 not-tomb-king hard plastics at this rate, the 6th edition Bretonnians are great, the 4th edition skeletons not so much.

    On a side note, the images in the article hint at a return to the classic lance formation.

    I'm just happy that some classic minis will be available again so I can buy some new stuff for 6th edition games, highly likely that I'll go for a couple of brettonian boxes, it sounds like a good ratio of units in the box. For the inevitability overpriced resin, I'll look to 3d prints rather than £60 Forge World minis.


    I think those Mantic sculpts could cost pennies and I'd struggle to summon any interest.

    To be fair, I'd say that about a lot of the 6th Ed Bretonnian range as well. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595855.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595855.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Seelenhaendler wrote:
    Get ready for:

    „Dear Warhammer fans,
    [snip]


    That would be the single most sensible thing they could do at this moment given the rumours imo.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595857.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595857.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    They have a certain capacity that they are able to dedicate to ToW and that's what will be dictating how many factions they are able to support over this first planned period of the game.

    Mood music definitely seems to be pointing to starter set being announced on the 14th. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595861.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595861.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    an MtO can take a year to get done and they can still add a new army every month for orders]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595863.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595863.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Vorian wrote:
    They obviously do not have the production capacity to support anything like 1 army made to order a month.

    They have a certain capacity that they are able to dedicate to ToW and that's what will be dictating how many factions they are able to support over this first planned period of the game.

    Mood music definitely seems to be pointing to starter set being announced on the 14th.


    Rumour is that there won't be a starter set so much as some faction boxes.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595866.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595866.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Vorian wrote:
    They obviously do not have the production capacity to support anything like 1 army made to order a month.

    They have a certain capacity that they are able to dedicate to ToW and that's what will be dictating how many factions they are able to support over this first planned period of the game.

    Mood music definitely seems to be pointing to starter set being announced on the 14th.


    The 2025 prediction makes sense given the ongoing rollout of 40k. GW could basically have the games leapfrog each other to make the churn even more continuous.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595874.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595874.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    1 army per month as MtO is not equal 1 army produced & delivered each month

    an MtO can take a year to get done and they can still add a new army every month for orders


    They would still need to be made at some point, they are struggling to keep pace with their current release schedule and keep other things in stock as it is.

    There is no realistic prospect of them introducing an army a month into their production bottleneck any time soon.

    Rumour is that there won't be a starter set so much as some faction boxes.


    I seem to remember the issue being confusion around what a starter set is. I think what we'll get is what 99% of us would consider to be a starter set (Brets vs TK).

    Only 11 days to go to see I guess. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595941.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595941.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595954.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11595954.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Vorian wrote:


    I seem to remember the issue being confusion around what a starter set is. I think what we'll get is what 99% of us would consider to be a starter set (Brets vs TK).

    Only 11 days to go to see I guess.


    The most accurate rumor mongers are saying a box for each army, no starter.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596018.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596018.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors TK and 1 for Brets for the initial launch, BUT there have been some rumors that a more proper 2 player starter set will follow at some point in the not too distant future, though that box won't necessarily be TK vs Brets. That ties in to the whole "soft launch" rumor thats been going around, the Bret and TK boxes are there to have something to show, basically, but the "real" Old World release (ie all the new stuff they've been working on) will be later.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596024.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596024.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW say there was a box with two army’s coming?
    Or was that more just an idea they had.

    Seperate I think here GW has killed a lot of enthusiasm for it, I do think there was some players willing to start.
    And just hoping for good rules, but it fizzled out with this weird GW strategy.

    Like I feel the rules can’t be taking all this time, and a couple of new minis should have been easy for GW to work out.
    Limited return over time to bring it back when the hype was hot. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596060.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596060.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors CA/Total War - they developed entire Army books for them - it probably does not help that CA has tried to destroy itself with "Hyenas" and Sega are slicing them to pieces as a tax write off.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596065.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596065.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Platuan4th wrote:
    Vorian wrote:


    I seem to remember the issue being confusion around what a starter set is. I think what we'll get is what 99% of us would consider to be a starter set (Brets vs TK).

    Only 11 days to go to see I guess.


    The most accurate rumor mongers are saying a box for each army, no starter.


    Are these rumours from outside this thread or have I manged to miss something? ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596091.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596091.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    the only rumour about a 2 armies box comes from the social media post that "no 2 player starter box" does not mean "no starter box" but that GW understands something different under that term]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596103.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596103.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Vorian wrote:
     Platuan4th wrote:
    Vorian wrote:


    I seem to remember the issue being confusion around what a starter set is. I think what we'll get is what 99% of us would consider to be a starter set (Brets vs TK).

    Only 11 days to go to see I guess.


    The most accurate rumor mongers are saying a box for each army, no starter.


    Are these rumours from outside this thread or have I manged to miss something?


    It's been mentioned in here in a few places, but news and rumours rarely come to dakka first hand these days.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596112.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596112.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW you never know..]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596124.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596124.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Apple fox wrote:
    Didn’t someone at GW say there was a box with two army’s coming?
    Or was that more just an idea they had.

    Seperate I think here GW has killed a lot of enthusiasm for it, I do think there was some players willing to start.
    And just hoping for good rules, but it fizzled out with this weird GW strategy.

    Like I feel the rules can’t be taking all this time, and a couple of new minis should have been easy for GW to work out.
    Limited return over time to bring it back when the hype was hot.


    Just a classics series with the old army boxes for bretonnians and tomb kings, or their battallion box sets would probably have sold out easily due to nostalgia and fomo. Old artwork and all.

    As is, thry seem to aim at a more complete game. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596236.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596236.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Plus some resin upgrade kits for specific regions. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596289.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596289.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mr Morden wrote:
    Given the links with CA/Total War - they developed entire Army books for them - it probably does not help that CA has tried to destroy itself with "Hyenas" and Sega are slicing them to pieces as a tax write off.


    CA brought that on themselves though with questionable leadership and even worse developpers not wanting to state the higher ups the facts.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596295.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596295.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Not Online!!! wrote:
     Mr Morden wrote:
    Given the links with CA/Total War - they developed entire Army books for them - it probably does not help that CA has tried to destroy itself with "Hyenas" and Sega are slicing them to pieces as a tax write off.


    CA brought that on themselves though with questionable leadership and even worse developpers not wanting to state the higher ups the facts.



    Pretty much I said but yeah]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596298.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596298.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Spoiler:


    Apparently this is the assembled Pegasus seen on the leaked sprue. If Valrak is accurate, this will be for the hero in the new box set.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596610.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596610.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596616.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596616.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596617.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596617.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
    I don't know if it's just the build/angle, but those wings look absurdly big. And the mane looks weird. But other than that looks alright.
    the guy building it mentions on reddit that the wings are lot bigger than from other Warhammer models, so not just the angle]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596626.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596626.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Inquisitor Gideon wrote:I don't know if it's just the build/angle, but those wings look absurdly big. And the mane looks weird. But other than that looks alright.


    kodos wrote:
     Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
    I don't know if it's just the build/angle, but those wings look absurdly big. And the mane looks weird. But other than that looks alright.
    the guy building it mentions on reddit that the wings are lot bigger than from other Warhammer models, so not just the angle



    In order for something the size and weight of a horse to fly, it will need very large wings.


    If anything pretty much every winged miniature in wfb history has comically tiny wings for their size.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596630.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596630.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596631.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596631.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Hellebore wrote:
    Inquisitor Gideon wrote:I don't know if it's just the build/angle, but those wings look absurdly big. And the mane looks weird. But other than that looks alright.


    kodos wrote:
     Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
    I don't know if it's just the build/angle, but those wings look absurdly big. And the mane looks weird. But other than that looks alright.
    the guy building it mentions on reddit that the wings are lot bigger than from other Warhammer models, so not just the angle



    In order for something the size and weight of a horse to fly, it will need very large wings.


    If anything pretty much every winged miniature in wfb history has comically tiny wings for their size.

    While true, various scientists have done the math on pegasi over the years. It just doesn't work. Winged humans are (barely) within the tolerances of physics (with some liberties taken for the muscle arrangements that would be necessary), but horses are right out.

    The trend toward larger wings on warhammer models is definitely a good one, though. It helps the grim reality of the setting if they aren't as common as dirt, and something everyone sees in large numbers in every army muster.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596641.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596641.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW mounted models the mounts themselves are much better sized for their riders. There was a period where every horse or mythical mount was basically ponysized.

    Wings too were often much smaller and even now you won't get fully realistically sized wings unfolded because they take up a huge amount of space.


    That said with GW able to make bigger stuff viably now I do like to see some decently sized wings ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596649.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596649.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Mozzamanx wrote:
    Spoiler:


    Apparently this is the assembled Pegasus seen on the leaked sprue. If Valrak is accurate, this will be for the hero in the new box set.


    Good looking model. Right mix of fantastic and mundane elements. I am positive towards the aestethics of ToW. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596656.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596656.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Hellebore wrote:
    In order for something the size and weight of a horse to fly, it will need very large wings.
    If anything pretty much every winged miniature in wfb history has comically tiny wings for their size.

    yeah, either actually wings with which the model would be able to fly, which are still way too small on that model
    or just skip the "realistic" for magical creatures completely

    either make it realistic or not comical wings at least should be fitting the model and be a disadvantage for gaming]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596673.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596673.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596674.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596674.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596708.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596708.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596732.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596732.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     triplegrim wrote:
    Mozzamanx wrote:
    Spoiler:


    Apparently this is the assembled Pegasus seen on the leaked sprue. If Valrak is accurate, this will be for the hero in the new box set.


    Good looking model. Right mix of fantastic and mundane elements. I am positive towards the aestethics of ToW.



    I think all the new models look great, which makes the decision to bring back old ugly ones even more stupid. Excited to see what plastic kit tomb kings get]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596775.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596775.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I remember hating the old Pegasus knight wings because they are so tiny, but after gaming with and transporting around other models with bigger wings I grew to appreciate them.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596809.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596809.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596830.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596830.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596838.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596838.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors HH does it with many kits in that most of the sprues are the same but a few are swapped out to make different vehicles)
    But I just thought of another solution. What if the rider is in resin? Since everything else they showed until now was resin it wouldn't surprise me and the rider would have more details then the pegasus so would make sense.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596883.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596883.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Matrindur wrote:
    Until now I thought since pegasus sprue didn't have any gates to other sprues it would be a standalone sprue that could be sold with multiple rider sprues to make different kits. (like how HH does it with many kits in that most of the sprues are the same but a few are swapped out to make different vehicles)
    But I just thought of another solution. What if the rider is in resin? Since everything else they showed until now was resin it wouldn't surprise me and the rider would have more details then the pegasus so would make sense.


    That's not how GW/FW does hybrid kits. Hybrid kits are done as upgrades to plastic retail kits, which means the Pegasus is either designed to be riderless(doubtful) or there's a sprue we haven't seen with at least one rider.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596901.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596901.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors HH has had kits split up specifically to allow for modularity. Mount as one sprue and then rider as a seperate sprue. Then mix and match as needed- say a Pegasus kit with a lord rider, then a later horse mount reusing the same lord sprue to make ground cav version.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596903.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596903.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Platuan4th wrote:
     Matrindur wrote:
    Until now I thought since pegasus sprue didn't have any gates to other sprues it would be a standalone sprue that could be sold with multiple rider sprues to make different kits. (like how HH does it with many kits in that most of the sprues are the same but a few are swapped out to make different vehicles)
    But I just thought of another solution. What if the rider is in resin? Since everything else they showed until now was resin it wouldn't surprise me and the rider would have more details then the pegasus so would make sense.


    That's not how GW/FW does hybrid kits. Hybrid kits are done as upgrades to plastic retail kits, which means the Pegasus is either designed to be riderless(doubtful) or there's a sprue we haven't seen with at least one rider.

    Not how they have done in the past but doesn't mean it couldn't happen in the future. Of course its likelier its just to be used with different plastic riders but I just wanted to share the thought]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596905.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596905.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Looks like a nice sculpt, though.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596945.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596945.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Geifer wrote:
    So, I'm not familiar with the old kits. Looking at the shiny new horsey, is it just me or do the feathers close to the torso extend very far to the back? Do we think the shadowy area behind them offers enough room for the rider's legs? It looks kind of strange to me, like it's not meant to take a normal rider. Or maybe that's just the angle.

    Looks like a nice sculpt, though.


    From this angle it looks like the rider is supposed to sit on an elevated saddle of some sort.


    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596956.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596956.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Ohman wrote:

    From this angle it looks like the rider is supposed to sit on an elevated saddle of some sort.

    Spoiler:




    Yeah, there appear to be a couple seat back options on the sprue. I am not sure how that would rank up, though. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596961.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596961.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW reserved for larger beasties.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596964.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596964.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Scottywan82 wrote:
     Ohman wrote:

    From this angle it looks like the rider is supposed to sit on an elevated saddle of some sort.

    Spoiler:




    Yeah, there appear to be a couple seat back options on the sprue. I am not sure how that would rank up, though.


    If it's anything like the older pegasus knights, they just fething won't ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596981.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11596981.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Geifer wrote:
    Thanks, Ohman! I didn't even consider a chair mounted on the pegasus. That's usually been something GW reserved for larger beasties.


    The old metal Imperial Pegasus had a throne for the rider.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597024.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597024.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Now I'm curious what a redesign of Morathi's Dark Pegasus would look like.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597088.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597088.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Eumerin wrote:
    Never played Brets, but...

    Now I'm curious what a redesign of Morathi's Dark Pegasus would look like.


    Calves that aren't one piece with the horse, one could hope.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597108.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597108.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Eumerin wrote:
    Never played Brets, but...

    Now I'm curious what a redesign of Morathi's Dark Pegasus would look like.


    Might look a lot like a cross between the Bret Pegasus and a LOTR Fell Beast.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597127.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597127.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Matrindur wrote:
     Platuan4th wrote:
     Matrindur wrote:
    Until now I thought since pegasus sprue didn't have any gates to other sprues it would be a standalone sprue that could be sold with multiple rider sprues to make different kits. (like how HH does it with many kits in that most of the sprues are the same but a few are swapped out to make different vehicles)
    But I just thought of another solution. What if the rider is in resin? Since everything else they showed until now was resin it wouldn't surprise me and the rider would have more details then the pegasus so would make sense.


    That's not how GW/FW does hybrid kits. Hybrid kits are done as upgrades to plastic retail kits, which means the Pegasus is either designed to be riderless(doubtful) or there's a sprue we haven't seen with at least one rider.

    Not how they have done in the past but doesn't mean it couldn't happen in the future. Of course its likelier its just to be used with different plastic riders but I just wanted to share the thought


    Having both materials as main kit(as opposed to resin upgrade pieces) gets rather inefficient. Basically lose the point of plastic sprue as you can't take full advantage of mass sales.

    Guess gw could have started to hate profits but somehow i doubt that.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597219.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597219.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597220.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597220.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Plastic is profitable on mass sales. Tying it to resin cuts on mass sales. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597223.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597223.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    making a single plastic mount and several different resin riders makes sense if they don't expect high sales on a single character]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597229.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597229.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors ever seen GW sell a plastic mount without a plastic rider.

    I think it's much more likely that Sir Generique will come with the plastic kit and then GW dazzles you with a fancy, resin upgrade for a special character rider (probably with an alternate head for the mount).]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597361.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597361.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors and if they are bringing the old models back, it might be again (although metal is much more expensive now so we might see resin instead)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597362.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597362.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    plastic mounts with metal rider were the standard for a long time in Warhammer
    and if they are bringing the old models back, it might be again (although metal is much more expensive now so we might see resin instead)


    Accepting that things were once one way, I'd be surprised to see mixed medium kits. When is the last time GW released one? Not counting 'upgrades' which require purchase of two different items. I mean one kit with plastic and resin / metal in it.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597390.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597390.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Dawnbringer wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    plastic mounts with metal rider were the standard for a long time in Warhammer
    and if they are bringing the old models back, it might be again (although metal is much more expensive now so we might see resin instead)


    Accepting that things were once one way, I'd be surprised to see mixed medium kits. When is the last time GW released one? Not counting 'upgrades' which require purchase of two different items. I mean one kit with plastic and resin / metal in it.


    Not since Finecast ended.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597399.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597399.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Looking at it, this pegasus isn't really that. Its going to be a rare enough choice that they might as well go and do the rider on the same set of sprues. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597408.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597408.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    not something GW has done for a very long time]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597409.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597409.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    and yet it is still on its own instead of parts of the rider being cast on parts of it

    not something GW has done for a very long time


    It'd fit with the rest of the twenty year old range.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597410.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597410.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors Suppose you have an old favourite hero, you could probably mount it on the new grand pegasus.

    One of my favourite sculpts for Fantasy battle is the high elf prince on griffon from island of blood. But I have two, and its almost impossible to make alterations to the noble Prince.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597414.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597414.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     KidCthulhu wrote:
    I don't think I've ever seen GW sell a plastic mount without a plastic rider. .


    6th Edition. The Cold Ones were shared between the Lizardmen and Dark Elves, so were made in plastic, but the riders were metal.

    EDIT: Ninja'd....]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597415.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597415.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors hero-choice mount in plastic that didn't come with a plastic rider. I wasn't talking about cavalry, which has had generic plastic mounts for metal riders since time immemorial.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597450.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597450.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     KidCthulhu wrote:
    Let me rephrase that; I've never seen a hero-choice mount in plastic that didn't come with a plastic rider. I wasn't talking about cavalry, which has had generic plastic mounts for metal riders since time immemorial.


    The plastic Talisman dragon did duty as both a Dogs of War and Dark Elf mount for a while. Its wing pieces went into otherwise fully metal monsters as well.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597455.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597455.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Shakalooloo wrote:
     KidCthulhu wrote:
    Let me rephrase that; I've never seen a hero-choice mount in plastic that didn't come with a plastic rider. I wasn't talking about cavalry, which has had generic plastic mounts for metal riders since time immemorial.


    The plastic Talisman dragon did duty as both a Dogs of War and Dark Elf mount for a while. Its wing pieces went into otherwise fully metal monsters as well.
    I literally added "post 2000's" to my comment just as this came in. I do remember briefly when you could buy the plastic dragon by itself. That serpentine spade-tailed bugger was the basis of almost everybody's dragons in the 90's
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597458.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597458.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     KidCthulhu wrote:
     Shakalooloo wrote:
     KidCthulhu wrote:
    Let me rephrase that; I've never seen a hero-choice mount in plastic that didn't come with a plastic rider. I wasn't talking about cavalry, which has had generic plastic mounts for metal riders since time immemorial.


    The plastic Talisman dragon did duty as both a Dogs of War and Dark Elf mount for a while. Its wing pieces went into otherwise fully metal monsters as well.
    I literally added "post 2000's" to my comment just as this came in. I do remember briefly when you could buy the plastic dragon by itself. That serpentine spade-tailed bugger was the basis of almost everybody's dragons in the 90's


    Why they never bothered to do the same with a feather-winged monster as well is a mystery to me. Plastic wings for Pegasuses, Griffons and Hippogriffs would've been neat.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597463.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597463.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Dawnbringer wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    plastic mounts with metal rider were the standard for a long time in Warhammer
    and if they are bringing the old models back, it might be again (although metal is much more expensive now so we might see resin instead)


    Accepting that things were once one way, I'd be surprised to see mixed medium kits. When is the last time GW released one? Not counting 'upgrades' which require purchase of two different items. I mean one kit with plastic and resin / metal in it.


    They did recently redesign a bunch of Horus Heresy vehicles recently to use the new plastic sponson weapon sprues instead of the original resin ones. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597568.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597568.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     MajorWesJanson wrote:
     Dawnbringer wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    plastic mounts with metal rider were the standard for a long time in Warhammer
    and if they are bringing the old models back, it might be again (although metal is much more expensive now so we might see resin instead)


    Accepting that things were once one way, I'd be surprised to see mixed medium kits. When is the last time GW released one? Not counting 'upgrades' which require purchase of two different items. I mean one kit with plastic and resin / metal in it.


    They did recently redesign a bunch of Horus Heresy vehicles recently to use the new plastic sponson weapon sprues instead of the original resin ones.


    Those plastic sponsons exist because full plastic vehicle kits that use those sponsons exist.

    If we take that as a recent precedent for GW's willingness to do hybrid kits again, we should also assume that GW committed to at least one plastic hero for the pegasus, even if the others are resin characters packed with the plastic horsey.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597627.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597627.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/10/09/warhammer-day-is-coming-and-so-are-some-juicy-new-reveals/]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597710.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597710.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597720.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597720.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    "He is the first of many reveals coming this week for Warhammer: The Old World and a host of other games, but you’ll need to tune into the live stream to catch them"]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597722.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597722.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597729.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597729.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     KidCthulhu wrote:
    Hopefully this means they're really pushing plastic foot knights when the army releases.

    It's resin.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597731.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597731.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     KidCthulhu wrote:
    Hopefully this means they're really pushing plastic foot knights when the army releases.

    They confirmed on twitter that tue standard bearer is resin. I think the Pegasus and a Tomb king centrepiece are the only plastics were going to get in the first wave. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597733.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597733.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     herjan1987 wrote:
    Note in the article they say:

    "He is the first of many reveals coming this week for Warhammer: The Old World and a host of other games, but you’ll need to tune into the live stream to catch them"


    No game in 2023 or 2024.

    We'll probably see some infantry and a pegasus. Thats it.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597734.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597734.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     KidCthulhu wrote:
    Hopefully this means they're really pushing plastic foot knights when the army releases.


    We will get a single plastic hero for each army (upon that armies release), twenty year old plastic, resin and metal kits that didn't look great when they were new and the rest will be resin.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597738.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597738.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Kanluwen wrote:
     KidCthulhu wrote:
    Hopefully this means they're really pushing plastic foot knights when the army releases.

    It's resin.
    Yes, this BSB model is resin, but we saw renders of Foot Knight parts long ago. It makes more sense to but a Foot Knight BSB in a Foot Knight unit than a Men-At-Arms unit. That's what I was getting at.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597742.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597742.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     KidCthulhu wrote:
     Kanluwen wrote:
     KidCthulhu wrote:
    Hopefully this means they're really pushing plastic foot knights when the army releases.

    It's resin.
    Yes, this BSB model is resin, but we saw renders of Foot Knight parts long ago. It makes more sense to but a Foot Knight BSB in a Foot Knight unit than a Men-At-Arms unit. That's what I was getting at.

    Do renders automatically mean plastics? The resin masters would also have been designed digitally right? (Unless of course they confirmed those parts to be plastic back then)]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597747.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597747.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors FW Fantasy infantry, but that doesn't mean they haven't done that before. I just remembered FW Chaos Dwarves were a thing.

    Also, to further show my age & ignorance, I assumed FW infantry-sized models were still sculpted by hand. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597757.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597757.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     KidCthulhu wrote:
     Kanluwen wrote:
     KidCthulhu wrote:
    Hopefully this means they're really pushing plastic foot knights when the army releases.

    It's resin.
    Yes, this BSB model is resin, but we saw renders of Foot Knight parts long ago. It makes more sense to but a Foot Knight BSB in a Foot Knight unit than a Men-At-Arms unit. That's what I was getting at.


    Should note that amidst those renders shown, the 3 helmets that were all believed to be for the plastic foot knights have subsequently been confirmed to be for the 3 resin characters now revealed so nothing is definite.

    That said; I'd be surprised if those sword arms weren't for a Foot Knight unit and if they're not plastic then that's just disappointing all round. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597760.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597760.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW exploded the setting and they deserve every new model they get. It does feel kind of weird, though, and maybe another candidate for the long list of issues with GW's marketing campaign for The Old World.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597766.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597766.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     KidCthulhu wrote:
    Let me rephrase that; I've never seen a post 2000's hero-choice mount in plastic that didn't come with a plastic rider. I wasn't talking about cavalry, which has had generic plastic mounts for metal riders since time immemorial.


    That's fair. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597779.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597779.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors

    Although could be a good conversion base for Sisters standard as well

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597783.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597783.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597784.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597784.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597791.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597791.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597801.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597801.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597803.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597803.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    It all feels very cobbled together out of 8th ed scraps, and not really what I'd expect from a company leading the fantasy wargames industry. Still, I welcome the chance to buy cheap(ish) tomb kings again and the resin models should be easily picked up 2nd hand a few months later once all the FOMO calms down.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Fayric wrote:
    What is he carrying on his back? I thought it was a shield first, but he carries the shield at the hip.


    I thought it was a book at first, but that pointed top is a little bit like the old grail/relic backpacks some of the questing knights had. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597805.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597805.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW Blew everything up.


    A good few armies at the end of Old World had some pretty modern models in their roster. Models that more than stand up today and heck a good number of them are right in Age of Sigmar right now.

    So GW can certainly bring back al ot of models. Plus I bet you a good many of the good ones would be models people who are fans of Old World, will want. Tomb Kings might have some dodgy old Skeletons that need an update, but things like the skeletons riding snake constructs and such were pretty new and are more than capable of standing up to modern standards of sculpting.


    As this is a big nostalgia release too it makes even more sense to include.


    The only real issue is that its been a very drawn out release and we, as customers, are not used to that from GW. We are used to seeing X and getting it within 3 or 6 months and that's it. Waiting years whilst getting official news isn't normal GW operation for us nor GW.

    Sure we get a few things - eg Necromunda has abunch of specialist models in rulebooks nad such that aren't yet released as models - we are used to that "unknown" stuff side of things; but a known release years in the making is new. So the news does feel odd. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597807.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597807.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I was hoping and expecting them to go Kislev and Cathay much earlier as they had gone to the trouble of creating an 8th ed Cathay army book for Total War and its something none of us older gamers had.

    Cathay and the Tomb Kings (well Nehekhara specfically Lahmia) have trading history so maybe they can work them in that way ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597842.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597842.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mr_Rose wrote:
    Never been a superfan of the enormously thick banner style. Like seriously that’s five inches of felt or quilted linen or something. Dude doesn’t need armour; he can just hide behind the flag. Which probably weighs more than him, now I think about it.


    I dunno if that even the intention. Forgeworld has a habit of making cloaks and tabbards super thick]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597845.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597845.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597851.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597851.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors WHFB and replaced it with AoS. Just half-finished sculpts sitting in a folder somewhere for the past 10 years that they trotted out as something to show and then finished up as a low budget release. Would explain why the scaling is off/they've reverted back to old school heroic scaling even whileall their other mini ranges are nu-scale.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597853.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597853.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    It would be really.... ironic? incredible? I don't know what the word is... if the renders and resulting minis they previewed were leftovers from before they cut WHFB and replaced it with AoS. Just half-finished sculpts sitting in a folder somewhere for the past 10 years that they trotted out as something to show and then finished up as a low budget release. Would explain why the scaling is off/they've reverted back to old school heroic scaling even whileall their other mini ranges are nu-scale.


    Considering how many designs Spartan Games came up with that never saw the light of day and they were the work of one to a handful of designers - I'm pretty sure GW has box after box of hard-drives and papers of concept art that never sees the light of day. I'm very sure many of the bits of material could well have been from before Old World was destroyed. They had 30+years working in that setting as a big firm that keeps a lot of material in-house. They will have had masses to draw from.

    What is likely is some got reworked - eg take how GW does mounts today compared to back 10 or 20 years ago. The same concept art might have been reworked to have a smaller mount in the old say; but today they can do a bigger mount. So there might well be ideas that started for one style and have been evolved for another.

    I wouldn't consider that low-investment; just the result of a big mature firm with a lot of assets.





    As for the SoB release being better, it had multiple advantages
    1) It was just an army update. Big but its within the scope of what GW has done many times before. The outstanding part was that SoB had gone for so long without an update, but otherwise it was pretty much a normal thing for GW doubled up to cover the whole army.

    2) It didn't have a pandemic and artificial market boost and global shipping issues and a war. All those things have likely taken their toll on Old World's development in various ways. It might well be that GW was going to resculpt everything and then a few things change and suddenly they will resculpt half of it and keep the more modern designs. etc...

    3) GW isn't yet in the home-run to marketing it for release and its clear that there's various things messing up their release windows anyway. So it could well be that the spotty marketing we are getting is because we've had a new edition; hicckups in their warehouse system; delays on the Epic relaunch etc.... All things that might well have pushed a release take outside of elements internal to that project in itself. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597858.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597858.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Overread wrote:
    It's likely to improve durability and reliability during printing, production, shipping and playing.

    Oh yeah, I know. Doesn’t stop it looking goofy though.

    Hey, remember when they gave you printed templates in the army book and the standard bearer came with just a stick? ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597860.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597860.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    It would be really.... ironic? incredible? I don't know what the word is... if the renders and resulting minis they previewed were leftovers from before they cut WHFB and replaced it with AoS. Just half-finished sculpts sitting in a folder somewhere for the past 10 years that they trotted out as something to show and then finished up as a low budget release. Would explain why the scaling is off/they've reverted back to old school heroic scaling even whileall their other mini ranges are nu-scale.

    as far as I recall the last rumours from Hastings for 9th Edition (before he rage quit because of AoS which he knew nothing about), he claimed to have seen new Bretonnian models ready for release

    might as well just be those he have seen and perfectly fits on the minimum work we have seen by now GW put into it
    as there is no good reason why Bretonnia is there when the hole story arc that was presented is without them

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597938.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597938.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597962.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597962.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    RazorEdge wrote:
    There was a rumor about, that some of those new Resin Breton Miniatures had to been designed for a 10th Edition Bretonia Armybook which never happened. DId someone heared more?


    If I recall there was plastic 10 men vampire kit aswell, along with a Questing knight on foot clampack aswell. Can anyone confirm this aswell.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597972.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11597972.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Geifer wrote:
    Hmm, it just occurred to me that with the model reveals so heavily slanted towards Bretonnia, the whole thing feels more like they're showing off a new army book instead of an entire game. Of course the army got neglected before GW exploded the setting and they deserve every new model they get. It does feel kind of weird, though, and maybe another candidate for the long list of issues with GW's marketing campaign for The Old World.


    I agree and I say this as someone who loves Bretonnia and collects them as a main army.

    It is really weird to lean so hard into them for the reboot. I absolutely love Bretonnia, but unless the new edition changes a lot, Bretonnia is not a flexable army. To grow new players and retain current ones GW should be leaning into High Elves, Empire, and Greenskins - armies that were always popular and can be played in several different ways. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598058.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598058.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598068.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598068.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors AoS, so whatever ever happens to TOW, GW can always port them over to AoS without replacing something there

    something that hardly works with Empires, Elves or Dwarfs]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598080.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598080.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    It would be really.... ironic? incredible? I don't know what the word is... if the renders and resulting minis they previewed were leftovers from before they cut WHFB and replaced it with AoS. Just half-finished sculpts sitting in a folder somewhere for the past 10 years that they trotted out as something to show and then finished up as a low budget release. Would explain why the scaling is off/they've reverted back to old school heroic scaling even whileall their other mini ranges are nu-scale.


    I don't see the scale thing as indicative of much. When part of the point of this is to bring back some of those beloved miniatures in a way where they aren't just temporary leftovers like they are in AoS, having them all in the same scale seems best.


    Grail Seeker wrote:
     Geifer wrote:
    Hmm, it just occurred to me that with the model reveals so heavily slanted towards Bretonnia, the whole thing feels more like they're showing off a new army book instead of an entire game. Of course the army got neglected before GW exploded the setting and they deserve every new model they get. It does feel kind of weird, though, and maybe another candidate for the long list of issues with GW's marketing campaign for The Old World.


    I agree and I say this as someone who loves Bretonnia and collects them as a main army.

    It is really weird to lean so hard into them for the reboot. I absolutely love Bretonnia, but unless the new edition changes a lot, Bretonnia is not a flexable army. To grow new players and retain current ones GW should be leaning into High Elves, Empire, and Greenskins - armies that were always popular and can be played in several different ways.


    How is it so weird? It's one of the two armies that didn't really make any sort of transition to AoS directly, fully unique to the WHFB setting. Emphasizing those two makes sense as it shows what the game has going for it.

     Mr Morden wrote:
    Its also likely the most generic army and hardest to copyright so very un-GW


    Not how copyright works. Bretonnia is no more or less copyrightable than any of their other stuff. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598095.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598095.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
    How is it so weird? It's one of the two armies that didn't really make any sort of transition to AoS directly, fully unique to the WHFB setting. Emphasizing those two makes sense as it shows what the game has going for it.


    It is a bit unexpected that the re-boot is headlined by two armies that was concidered among the lesser played and collected. Not saying it's a terrible opening for the new game but most of us was probably expecting Empire, Orcs & Goblins, Skaven or High Elves before Tomb Kings and Bretonnia.

    Hoping the reveals this weekend will give us better idea of the plans for the release!]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598101.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598101.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    what it a problem that the storyline and campaign tasered does not feature those armies at all but is about something different]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598103.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598103.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Ohman wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
    How is it so weird? It's one of the two armies that didn't really make any sort of transition to AoS directly, fully unique to the WHFB setting. Emphasizing those two makes sense as it shows what the game has going for it.


    It is a bit unexpected that the re-boot is headlined by two armies that was concidered among the lesser played and collected. Not saying it's a terrible opening for the new game but most of us was probably expecting Empire, Orcs & Goblins, Skaven or High Elves before Tomb Kings and Bretonnia.

    Hoping the reveals this weekend will give us better idea of the plans for the release!


    It's catering to a group of players who were left abandoned by AoS, Empire, Orcs, Skaven etc all had their armies or significant portions of their armies retained for Sigmar, people who were interested in those can still have them in AoS. That's not quite the case for Bretonnia and Tomb Kings where their whole range was dropped.

    It's appealing to the nostalgia for those armies and showing a return to WHFB more so than if they had gone for Empire models instead or whatever, because you can just go and buy many of the models for those already.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598106.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598106.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Its not a great strategy if you want a sustained playerbase when a large chunk of the people who buy into the game drop off because they don't like the army they have.

    Bretonnia and Tomb Kings are not one size fits all armies Even before Bretonnia got left behind there is a reason it was one of GW's smallest faction bases.

    This is like if 40k died for a couple of decades and upon its return they only talked about Squats and Dark Eldar and never mentioned Space Marines. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598108.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598108.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Grail Seeker wrote:
    Which is great for nostalgia or for people like me that were collecting Bretonnia dead or not.

    Its not a great strategy if you want a sustained playerbase when a large chunk of the people who buy into the game drop off because they don't like the army they have.

    Bretonnia and Tomb Kings are not one size fits all armies Even before Bretonnia got left behind there is a reason it was one of GW's smallest faction bases.

    This is like if 40k died for a couple of decades and upon its return they only talked about Squats and Dark Eldar and never mentioned Space Marines.


    No, it isn't like that. Bretonnia and Tomb Kings are the ones that are being shown off and focused on because they currently have nothing. They didn't get transferred over to AoS, they just got abandoned entirely. The Empire, Elves etc models are already available for the most part, and they are just going to be ported back over to this. That's not the case with something like Bretonnia where they need a bit more attention because they don't have anything available at all.

    Basically going "Bretonnia is back, remember them? You've not seen them in 8 years because they were entirely gone, but now they're back!" compared to "Look, it's the classic Empire minis that have mostly been available in AoS for the past 8 years again! So Exciting!". ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598137.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598137.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    All I am saying is its a wierd way to start the game, and might not have been the most successful strategy.

    "Hey guys we are relaunching all Warhammer Fantasy centered on the Age of the Three Emperors!

    Enjoy this starter box with two factions that has nothing to do with that. One of which isn't even on the same landmass of the setting we want to create!"]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598149.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598149.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Grail Seeker wrote:
    I understand that there will be empire models available for purchase at launch. But there is also no logical reason why they couldn't have done an empire versus greenskin starter box - complete with a few new heroes to generate hype but also produced Bretonnia and tomb king models like they are doing with the others, no? The choice wasn't starter box or nothing.

    All I am saying is its a wierd way to start the game, and might not have been the most successful strategy.

    "Hey guys we are relaunching all Warhammer Fantasy centered on the Age of the Three Emperors!

    Enjoy this starter box with two factions that has nothing to do with that. One of which isn't even on the same landmass of the setting we want to create!"


    Where has it been confirmed that this is how they're "starting" the game? Showing this Bretonnia stuff doesn't necessarily mean that's what there's going to be. We might well get a start box with some stuff like you're suggesting, nothing's been actually announced yet. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598166.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598166.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    You honestly think they're not previewing the launch products first but later releases?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598167.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598167.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Platuan4th wrote:
    Let me get this straight.

    You honestly think they're not previewing the launch products first but later releases?


    I honestly doubt the resin characters they showed will be in the starter boxes at launch.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598168.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598168.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Platuan4th wrote:
    Let me get this straight.

    You honestly think they're not previewing the launch products first but later releases?

    Still much more reasonable than some trolls suggesting a 2025/26 release.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598170.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598170.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sarouan wrote:
     Platuan4th wrote:
    Let me get this straight.

    You honestly think they're not previewing the launch products first but later releases?


    I honestly doubt the resin characters they showed will be in the starter boxes at launch.


    Please show me where I mentioned a Starter Box.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598172.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598172.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Platuan4th wrote:
    Let me get this straight.

    You honestly think they're not previewing the launch products first but later releases?


    They are very likely launch releases.

    But that doesn't stop them releasing things for the more typical armies, too.

    It isn't one or the other. We still haven't had a proper reveal for the game and what it'll entail, just a few single miniatures shown.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598174.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598174.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors aos remakes of fantasy stuff, or maybe held back the lizardmen wave and done a dual release]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598181.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598181.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mentlegen324 wrote:

    Where has it been confirmed that this is how they're "starting" the game? Showing this Bretonnia stuff doesn't necessarily mean that's what there's going to be. We might well get a start box with some stuff like you're suggesting, nothing's been actually announced yet.
    this was confirmed on the last "big" announcement stream, changing that from the half a year ago or the people taking there having no clue what really is going on would just make it worse]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598219.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598219.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    1)
    Whoever is in charge wants TOW to fail, so they can say: „We tried, but there is simply not enough demand for a classic rank and file game set in the Old World!“.

    2)
    They picked Brets and Kings for the initial releases because these miniature ranges will get less support/ fewer updates than the more popular armies released later on.
    Basically, release the armies with limited support first so that the support for later armies constitutes a step up and not a step down if the schedule was the other way around.
    Also, if they want to launch TOW with more than Brets and Kings, they can bring back more kits for the other armies at launch in this way, since the pipeline to produce and distribute products is limited.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598246.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598246.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598253.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598253.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Grail Seeker wrote:
    I understand that there will be empire models available for purchase at launch. But there is also no logical reason why they couldn't have done an empire versus greenskin starter box - complete with a few new heroes to generate hype but also produced Bretonnia and tomb king models like they are doing with the others, no? The choice wasn't starter box or nothing.

    All I am saying is its a wierd way to start the game, and might not have been the most successful strategy.

    "Hey guys we are relaunching all Warhammer Fantasy centered on the Age of the Three Emperors!

    Enjoy this starter box with two factions that has nothing to do with that. One of which isn't even on the same landmass of the setting we want to create!"


    I forgot the part in the lore where Bretonnia and Khemri simply didn't exist until AFTER the Age of the Three Emperors. Man, am I behind on my lore reading...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598256.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598256.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Just Tony wrote:
    Grail Seeker wrote:
    I understand that there will be empire models available for purchase at launch. But there is also no logical reason why they couldn't have done an empire versus greenskin starter box - complete with a few new heroes to generate hype but also produced Bretonnia and tomb king models like they are doing with the others, no? The choice wasn't starter box or nothing.

    All I am saying is its a wierd way to start the game, and might not have been the most successful strategy.

    "Hey guys we are relaunching all Warhammer Fantasy centered on the Age of the Three Emperors!

    Enjoy this starter box with two factions that has nothing to do with that. One of which isn't even on the same landmass of the setting we want to create!"


    I forgot the part in the lore where Bretonnia and Khemri simply didn't exist until AFTER the Age of the Three Emperors. Man, am I behind on my lore reading...


    I dont think the issue is with players have access to these as forces at the start. or even a lore reason. I think the strangeness of it all comes from GW having said before one of the downsides of WFB (And thus why they went the route they did with AoS) was that they had issue with why certain factions would be fighting or even anywhere close to be near enough to get into a fight at all. Then they choice the two most opposite armies available to pick from!

    I always thought it was a load of baloney, as players never seem to run out of ideas of why there would a be a lore reason for armies to fight.

    Now GW bring back WFB with the two armies that have nothing to do at all with the 'new' narrative they have been spinning for this new edition. There is no (logical) reason they couldn't go with TK & Brets, its just an odd choice that goes against what they have been talking about in the few previews we have gotten so far.

    Personally, I have no problem with the choice. But its still a very strange way to usher in an era of 'Empire vs Empire Vs Empire Vs Chaos', other than going for the most obvious nostalgia sales for the two factions removed from AoS completely. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598258.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598258.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW revealed a knight and a liche priest during Warhammer Fest. Then over the next five months they added a mounted banner bearer, sorceress and banner bearer on foot for Bretonnia. For a company with a decades long tradition of two player starter sets* for anything and everything**, revealing two factions at their main event and then following up with further models for only a single army feels completely backwards. It doesn't feel like they're actually showing off Bretonnia and Tomb Kings to cater to the two factions that got murdered half a year into AoS. Even allowing for the snail's pace that characterizes Old World updates and going so long exclusively with Bretonnian models, sticking with just one faction instead of alternating between the two feels like they're not showing off both starter factions. Just one. Hence my comment that it feels more like an army book reveal than a game/edition reveal.


    * I know GW's communication during Warhammer Fest was that there won't be a starter set as per whatever weird definition GW uses. We don't really know what they're planning, other than I believe in the following Q&A they said there would be starter products of some description.
    ** Even potential mono-faction starter sets like Gorkamorka and Horus Heresy that share the same models for different factions are presented as two sides on the box and in promo material.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598259.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598259.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW just has some monkeys flinging darts at a wall with random ideas and whatever gets hit, gets released?
    For such a huge company, they had some baffling approaches to business and releases so far, so I'd wager anything is on the table.

    My suspicion still is this will be a limited release with limited support like with the 40k Armageddon ruleset. If it generates some nostalgia bucks, good. If it runs for 2-3 years, good. If it surpasses AOS and becomes the new staple again, also good. I think GW has low expectations, everything with a net win is OK.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598260.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598260.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598261.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598261.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mallo wrote:
     Just Tony wrote:
    Grail Seeker wrote:
    I understand that there will be empire models available for purchase at launch. But there is also no logical reason why they couldn't have done an empire versus greenskin starter box - complete with a few new heroes to generate hype but also produced Bretonnia and tomb king models like they are doing with the others, no? The choice wasn't starter box or nothing.

    All I am saying is its a wierd way to start the game, and might not have been the most successful strategy.

    "Hey guys we are relaunching all Warhammer Fantasy centered on the Age of the Three Emperors!

    Enjoy this starter box with two factions that has nothing to do with that. One of which isn't even on the same landmass of the setting we want to create!"


    I forgot the part in the lore where Bretonnia and Khemri simply didn't exist until AFTER the Age of the Three Emperors. Man, am I behind on my lore reading...


    I dont think the issue is with players have access to these as forces at the start. or even a lore reason. I think the strangeness of it all comes from GW having said before one of the downsides of WFB (And thus why they went the route they did with AoS) was that they had issue with why certain factions would be fighting or even anywhere close to be near enough to get into a fight at all. Then they choice the two most opposite armies available to pick from!

    I always thought it was a load of baloney, as players never seem to run out of ideas of why there would a be a lore reason for armies to fight.

    Now GW bring back WFB with the two armies that have nothing to do at all with the 'new' narrative they have been spinning for this new edition. There is no (logical) reason they couldn't go with TK & Brets, its just an odd choice that goes against what they have been talking about in the few previews we have gotten so far.

    Personally, I have no problem with the choice. But its still a very strange way to usher in an era of 'Empire vs Empire Vs Empire Vs Chaos', other than going for the most obvious nostalgia sales for the two factions removed from AoS completely.


    Boats.

    I'm not sure everyone will catch that, so I'll say it again...



    BOATS.


    I get how players may miss this little fact but it's disheartening that GW can't put that together despite having at least TWO MARITIME GAMES SET IN THE OLD WORLD.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598278.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598278.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Just Tony wrote:
     Mallo wrote:
     Just Tony wrote:
    Grail Seeker wrote:
    I understand that there will be empire models available for purchase at launch. But there is also no logical reason why they couldn't have done an empire versus greenskin starter box - complete with a few new heroes to generate hype but also produced Bretonnia and tomb king models like they are doing with the others, no? The choice wasn't starter box or nothing.

    All I am saying is its a wierd way to start the game, and might not have been the most successful strategy.

    "Hey guys we are relaunching all Warhammer Fantasy centered on the Age of the Three Emperors!

    Enjoy this starter box with two factions that has nothing to do with that. One of which isn't even on the same landmass of the setting we want to create!"


    I forgot the part in the lore where Bretonnia and Khemri simply didn't exist until AFTER the Age of the Three Emperors. Man, am I behind on my lore reading...


    I dont think the issue is with players have access to these as forces at the start. or even a lore reason. I think the strangeness of it all comes from GW having said before one of the downsides of WFB (And thus why they went the route they did with AoS) was that they had issue with why certain factions would be fighting or even anywhere close to be near enough to get into a fight at all. Then they choice the two most opposite armies available to pick from!

    I always thought it was a load of baloney, as players never seem to run out of ideas of why there would a be a lore reason for armies to fight.

    Now GW bring back WFB with the two armies that have nothing to do at all with the 'new' narrative they have been spinning for this new edition. There is no (logical) reason they couldn't go with TK & Brets, its just an odd choice that goes against what they have been talking about in the few previews we have gotten so far.

    Personally, I have no problem with the choice. But its still a very strange way to usher in an era of 'Empire vs Empire Vs Empire Vs Chaos', other than going for the most obvious nostalgia sales for the two factions removed from AoS completely.


    Boats.

    I'm not sure everyone will catch that, so I'll say it again...



    BOATS.


    I get how players may miss this little fact but it's disheartening that GW can't put that together despite having at least TWO MARITIME GAMES SET IN THE OLD WORLD.


    If only WFB had been invented in a country that once ruled most of the world by having an incredibly powerful navy, then they might have realised this themselves!

    I'm with you on this, I think the mental gymnastics GW had to go through to have that as the excuse not be able to put together a simple reason for forces to meet in battle is mind boggling.

    "We made AoS because our team forgot boats were a thing".

    Though this might explain the reason for the concept of the Idoneth Deepkin ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598280.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598280.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:

    Where has it been confirmed that this is how they're "starting" the game? Showing this Bretonnia stuff doesn't necessarily mean that's what there's going to be. We might well get a start box with some stuff like you're suggesting, nothing's been actually announced yet.
    this was confirmed on the last "big" announcement stream, changing that from the half a year ago or the people taking there having no clue what really is going on would just make it worse


    Do you mean the Q&A thing from back in April? Maybe I just missed something because it's hard to find the info from it, but I don't remember seeing anything saying it's Bretonnia and Tomb Kings as the initial/starter focus. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598282.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598282.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors AoS. That statement was made with regards to global campaigns and major narrative events and how they had difficulty creating compelling WHFB narrative that engaged the entire community without turning those narratives into World War Fantasy with wide-spanning consequences (ala Storm of Chaos and The End Times) because they couldn't narratively justify having all these factions turn up to fight over a relatively small area. For this reason they trimmed a number of popular factions off for TOW so that they could remain more narratively focused with the setting and storytelling. The presence of boats doesn't change that, you still have the same fundamental problem that its oddly and awfully convenient that a dozen or so different factions that are generally scattered and isolated with very different agendas all happen to show up in the same 100 square mile backwater to partake in a limited narrative conflict that isn't that important to the broader setting. The alternative is an event that sees widespread battles across the whole setting (yes, using boats) in a manner that engages everyone into he narrative, but usually requires the narrative stakes to be high for everyone in order to justifiably make sense.

    40k does not have that problem, because most of the factions are relatively fluid and mobile and not confined to any one area or region of the setting (excepting Tau, which GW more recently managed to fix with the 5th sphere expansion scattering them across a wider area). You can create necessarily high stakes and have the 20 or so different factions duking it out in a sufficiently sized theater of conflict and have it make all the sense in the world, you can even destroy entire planets/sectors, and it doesn't really impact the wider setting at all because the scale of the setting is much grander. AoS is similar to some extent in that regards, but because of the disjointed and somewhat nebulous/ambiguous nature of the setting has a hard time connecting with the audience in a meaningful way.

    Anyway.

    As for the Bretonnia/Tomb Kings thing, I think its been speculated pretty heavily that whatever GWs original plans were for TOW have been de-railed, or they never really had a solid vision/plan to begin with and were making it up as they went. The initial teases and hints about the setting revolved heavily around the idea of the Age of Three Emperors - that Empire Civil War would have obviously and easily allowed for a 2-player mono-faction empire themed launch box ala the Age of Darkness Box for Horus Heresy, etc. Then they seemed to veer into Kislev and Cathay being involved, which never made much sense to me but some I think assumed that we would possibly be seeing them as part of a 2-player 2-faction launch box ala 40k/AoS. The Bretonnian and Tomb King angle has come about more recently, and the rumor is not that they will be in a 2-player set, but rather they will be available as part of separate stand-alone sets. We have also more recently learned that the narrative of the initial wave of releases will be focused on the Border Princes, rather than the more obvious place to start in the Empire with the Age of Three Emperors. I would guess that development on the Empire stuff (which presumably would feature all new sculpts with some aesthetic difference from what we may be used to given that this is a few hundred years prior to the setting of previous editions of the game) was probably slowed by the pandemic as well as the production bottleneck issues that GW has been experiencing for the last 3-4 years, and likewise the same with Kislev/Cathay. Likewise, the community has not been shy in making its demands clear and sharing expectations (to the extent that most TOW related social media channels and forum threads can get pretty acrimonious and toxic very fast).

    I think they developed or reworked whatever plans they may have originally had to focus on the Border Princes as a means to launch the game with legacy minis for a number of the legacy factions, as they had the tooling for those models available and ready to go and they required significantly less development than the creation of new armies and miniatures from whole cloth. They picked Bretonnia and Tomb Kings as the main focus for the first wave because they were the only two factions that did not have even a portion of their range available for sale, so that they could throw a bone to players of those factions and spiff them up a bit so they don't feel quite as bad about having some of the oldest models in the range, etc. as well as in acknowledgement of the fact that those two factions have surged in popularity as a result of their unavailability and the nostalgia surrounding them. Frankly, I do not think that they had originally intended to include Tomb Kings at all, and only planned to include Bretonnia in a later stage of development, but I'm sure some middle manager at the firm saw how much Bret/Tomb King kits are going for on eBay and decided they should cash in on it and forced a rework of the plans/their inclusion.

    My guess (and based on some of the more big picture rumors we have heard) we will possibly see a proper 2-player starter/launch set released at some point next year containing all new minis and focused on promoting the actual narrative direction of the game rather than pushing nostalgia. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598309.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598309.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Just Tony wrote:
    Grail Seeker wrote:
    I understand that there will be empire models available for purchase at launch. But there is also no logical reason why they couldn't have done an empire versus greenskin starter box - complete with a few new heroes to generate hype but also produced Bretonnia and tomb king models like they are doing with the others, no? The choice wasn't starter box or nothing.

    All I am saying is its a wierd way to start the game, and might not have been the most successful strategy.

    "Hey guys we are relaunching all Warhammer Fantasy centered on the Age of the Three Emperors!

    Enjoy this starter box with two factions that has nothing to do with that. One of which isn't even on the same landmass of the setting we want to create!"


    I forgot the part in the lore where Bretonnia and Khemri simply didn't exist until AFTER the Age of the Three Emperors. Man, am I behind on my lore reading...


    Is there a point to being this willfully ignorant?

    Bretonnia during this time is neck deeps in Greekskins incursions and, as least before retcons, aren't a big player involved in the Age of three Emperors. As for Khemri, well look at the map and decide for yourself how big of a role they play. No lore reading required!]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598322.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598322.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Grail Seeker wrote:
     Just Tony wrote:
    Grail Seeker wrote:
    I understand that there will be empire models available for purchase at launch. But there is also no logical reason why they couldn't have done an empire versus greenskin starter box - complete with a few new heroes to generate hype but also produced Bretonnia and tomb king models like they are doing with the others, no? The choice wasn't starter box or nothing.

    All I am saying is its a wierd way to start the game, and might not have been the most successful strategy.

    "Hey guys we are relaunching all Warhammer Fantasy centered on the Age of the Three Emperors!

    Enjoy this starter box with two factions that has nothing to do with that. One of which isn't even on the same landmass of the setting we want to create!"


    I forgot the part in the lore where Bretonnia and Khemri simply didn't exist until AFTER the Age of the Three Emperors. Man, am I behind on my lore reading...


    Is there a point to being this willfully ignorant?

    Bretonnia during this time is neck deeps in Greekskins incursions and, as least before retcons, aren't a big player involved in the Age of three Emperors. As for Khemri, well look at the map and decide for yourself how big of a role they play. No lore reading required!


    Is there a point to being this willfully ignorant?

    Being around during the time is NOT the same as being at the event. NOR was it expressly stated that this game revoled AROUND this event.


    While we're at it with the "look at the map" crack: Where is England compared to the Middle East? Do you remember anything about The Crusades?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598390.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598390.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    They have said:

    The game will be set firmly within the Old World itself – the lands between the coast of Bretonnia to the west and the Worlds Edge Mountains to the east – during the decades immediately before the Great War Against Chaos and the Siege of Praag. Much of the action in the first wave of books and supplements takes place in and around the Border Princes – the barrier lands between the Empire and Orc territory.


    I still think its odd that the two factions that are not at all mentioned as playable as either core or with basic rules are

    Kislev and Cathay ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598419.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598419.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Kislev fits solidly between the borders defined in your quote, and if you look carefully at one of the maps that they shared on WarCom, Kislev also has a presence in the Border Princes: https://images.app.goo.gl/N8znn8o5ayQPZxKKA

    Note - Uvetovsk on the right.

    My understanding is that the "core" factions (Empire, Bretonnians, etc.) will be continuously updated and regularly supported, etc. and that a number of other factions will basically be "one and done" - i.e. "season 3" might be narratively about kislev vs cathay - the core factions will get some updates, kislev and cathay will get small flavorful army lists, but then season 4 comes along and is about Tilea invading Bretonnia, so Tilea gets an army list, and the core factions get some more updates, and Kislev and Cathay don't get touched again, etc.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598429.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598429.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mr Morden wrote:
    For clarity

    They have said:

    The game will be set firmly within the Old World itself – the lands between the coast of Bretonnia to the west and the Worlds Edge Mountains to the east – during the decades immediately before the Great War Against Chaos and the Siege of Praag. Much of the action in the first wave of books and supplements takes place in and around the Border Princes – the barrier lands between the Empire and Orc territory.


    I still think its odd that the two factions that are not at all mentioned as playable as either core or with basic rules are

    Kislev and Cathay


    It's very odd that one of the first proper things they showed for the whole project was multiple pieces of concept art and articles over several weeks showing us Kislev, only to have that not be directly relevant to the actual game, won't be for several years at best and might not happen.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598430.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598430.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
     Mr Morden wrote:
    For clarity

    They have said:

    The game will be set firmly within the Old World itself – the lands between the coast of Bretonnia to the west and the Worlds Edge Mountains to the east – during the decades immediately before the Great War Against Chaos and the Siege of Praag. Much of the action in the first wave of books and supplements takes place in and around the Border Princes – the barrier lands between the Empire and Orc territory.


    I still think its odd that the two factions that are not at all mentioned as playable as either core or with basic rules are

    Kislev and Cathay


    It's very odd that one of the first proper things they showed for the whole project was multiple pieces of concept art and articles over several weeks showing us Kislev, only to have that not be directly relevant to the actual game, won't be for several years at best and might not happen.


    I think that it might be that, because Kislev isn't considered a main faction in old Warhammer, they want to wait on revealing a completely new faction until after the Old World releases.

    Speculation and perhaps a little bit of fools' hope, but also a definite possibility.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598434.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598434.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW was just bull gakking with Kislev and Cathay concept art they did for a video game because they had done zero work for TOW at the time but had to post something so that people wouldn't talk about Kings of War instead ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598435.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598435.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    It is my understanding that GW was just bull gakking with Kislev and Cathay concept art they did for a video game because they had done zero work for TOW at the time but had to post something so that people wouldn't talk about Kings of War instead

    Negative. They were showcasing the concept art to give an idea as to how the design process was working.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598439.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598439.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Kislev is coming, they said explicitly it would. The fact that it's not a core faction and not the present focus does not mean it's not.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598481.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598481.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    if this will ever happen is something different, as first they need to start said story arc, which is not even clear that they would do it

    for now we having nothing except that Bretonnia get new resin models
    might just well be a anniversary release without rules at all

    and yes, teasing Kislev and Cathay was simply just to show something to go along with TWW and they had nothing else to show.
    if Total War would have started with Chaos Dwarfs instead of Kislev we would have seen those instead
    and if TWW 3 would not have been released that time we would have seen nothing]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598501.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598501.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    I find the... lack of imagination, literal overinterpretation of events, I don't know what you want to to call it... in those responses kinda frightening.

    Kislev is coming, they said explicitly it would. The fact that it's not a core faction and not the present focus does not mean it's not.



    I don't think it's that hard to understand why people wouldn't be happy for them to hype up this project by showing off something that the have no plans to include as part of the game for several years after launch, at best. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598542.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598542.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors a design process. Not the design process for TOW ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598555.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598555.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    and yet it is still on its own instead of parts of the rider being cast on parts of it

    not something GW has done for a very long time


    https://www.games-workshop.com/en-FI/horus-heresy-sky-hunter-squadron-2023

    Yea. It's few months.

    Gw release schedule has warped people's perceptions since half a year or so is "very long time",'

    Btw above also provides better explanation for why than resin model inside. DUCY?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598559.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598559.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    tneva82 wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    and yet it is still on its own instead of parts of the rider being cast on parts of it

    not something GW has done for a very long time


    https://www.games-workshop.com/en-FI/horus-heresy-sky-hunter-squadron-2023

    Yea. It's few months.

    Gw release schedule has warped people's perceptions since half a year or so is "very long time",'

    Btw above also provides better explanation for why than resin model inside. DUCY?


    Votann bikers from last year are also separate from the bike/mount. To be fair in AoS it's been a while to my knowledge for them to be separate. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598647.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598647.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    I find the... lack of imagination, literal overinterpretation of events, I don't know what you want to to call it... in those responses kinda frightening.

    Kislev is coming, they said explicitly it would. The fact that it's not a core faction and not the present focus does not mean it's not.



    I don't think it's that hard to understand why people wouldn't be happy for them to hype up this project by showing off something that the have no plans to include as part of the game for several years after launch, at best.


    Based on what, exactly? They said the first wave of the game will be focused on the Border Princes region, which includes a Kislev presence. I don't know how long the first wave is going to last, but I would be surprised if it lasts "years". It seems pretty likely Kiselv will see inclusion pretty early on.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598689.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598689.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    and given how long HH needs to reach Terra, why do you think they will reach Praag within months and not years?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598698.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598698.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    I find the... lack of imagination, literal overinterpretation of events, I don't know what you want to to call it... in those responses kinda frightening.

    Kislev is coming, they said explicitly it would. The fact that it's not a core faction and not the present focus does not mean it's not.



    I don't think it's that hard to understand why people wouldn't be happy for them to hype up this project by showing off something that the have no plans to include as part of the game for several years after launch, at best.


    Based on what, exactly? They said the first wave of the game will be focused on the Border Princes region, which includes a Kislev presence. I don't know how long the first wave is going to last, but I would be surprised if it lasts "years". It seems pretty likely Kiselv will see inclusion pretty early on.


    Do you honestly think based on what they've shown and said that within the first 1-2 years of the games release, we'll be getting what's effectively an entire new army of Kislev? Especially when they've ruled out 7 existing WHFB armies as being part of this in a capacity beyond lip service so "you can bring them to battle for old times sake"?

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598702.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598702.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    https://images.app.goo.gl/N8znn8o5ayQPZxKKA

    Uvetovsk = Kislev (if nothing else, a Kislev themed border prince that would most likely utilize a Kislev army list).

    The story is never reaching Praag. They were very explicit in stating that the narrative of the game (i.e. its future development for the next 10-20+ years at least) was set in the decades *before* the Siege of Praag. "before" is an exclusionary term, ie its usage indicates that the Siege of Praag is not included within the proscribed timeframe of the setting, in the same way that saying something is set "before World War 2" means that the events of world war 2 are not included in its story.

    The first wave of the narrative (which probably means the next year or two, based on how development waves for Necromunda, Kill Team, and AoS have gone) is set in the Border Princes. As the Border Princes maps for the Old World include a Kislevite faction (which as far as I have been able to ascertain has never existed in the lore previously), it is reasonable to assume that Kislev will be included at some point within the next 1-2 years while the focus is still on the Border Princes.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
    chaos0xomega wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    I find the... lack of imagination, literal overinterpretation of events, I don't know what you want to to call it... in those responses kinda frightening.

    Kislev is coming, they said explicitly it would. The fact that it's not a core faction and not the present focus does not mean it's not.



    I don't think it's that hard to understand why people wouldn't be happy for them to hype up this project by showing off something that the have no plans to include as part of the game for several years after launch, at best.


    Based on what, exactly? They said the first wave of the game will be focused on the Border Princes region, which includes a Kislev presence. I don't know how long the first wave is going to last, but I would be surprised if it lasts "years". It seems pretty likely Kiselv will see inclusion pretty early on.


    Do you honestly think based on what they've shown and said that within the first 1-2 years of the games release, we'll be getting what's effectively an entire new army of Kislev? Especially when they've ruled out 7 existing WHFB armies as being part of this in a capacity beyond lip service so "you can bring them to battle for old times sake"?



    100%.

    This is weird, because usually you're the optimist and im the pessimist as far as TOW discussions go, but yes.

    GW isn't bothering to resuscitate a dead game to just reissue old minis. Those old minis will sell well to the newbies coming in via TWW, but as is already well known from GWs financial reports and insider knowledge, the main money-maker for the company is new releases rather than the back catalogue. Once the community has had their fill of the old minis they will be moving on to new sculpts and new content. That is, after all, how they make their money. The cut factions all more or less live on in AoS anyway, so its not like they've fully abandoned them (and the presence of a Harkon banner on the Border Princes map implies that even though "Vampire Counts" won't be present, theres still the possibility of a necromantic wet-undead faction headed off by a secret vampire - I would assume theres a possibility we will see similar "not-Faction" armies come about, for example we might not get "Dark Elves" but we may get "Fellhearts Coastal Raiders" or "Mengil Manhides Manflayers" or whatever which bend the rules of the traditional take on these factions, etc.), they're still making money on that IP, just in a different context. In fact, cutting those 7 factions basically opens the door for them to add in new factions like Kislev - think about that as 7 extra mouths that don't need to get fed. Instead of needing to listen to Dark Elf and Lizardmen players bitch about how they aren't getting any support, GW can focus on providing support for a much smaller pool of legacy factions, which frees up the resources to add other factions.

    I don't think Kislev will be a full army comparable to the core factions though. I'm expecting it to be a much more limited list (at least at first) - basically a couple heroes, winged lancers and a couple infantry choices, bears, and a cannon or something. What I expect is that the core factions will be launched in a single book with a very complete set of army lists included, and will see small updates and add-ons via supplements ala HH. The non-core factions (like Kislev) will see a more gradual and long term evolution over many more supplements rather than getting comprehensive detailed lists out of the gate.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598705.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598705.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    And after a year or so, they release brand new army Kislev as the start of overpowered armybooks with crazy special rules and uniqe magics. Needless to say, Kislev sell really well. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598710.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598710.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Fayric wrote:
    My guess is they make a pretty basic game to start with. Classic models with the occasional new additions, index styled army rules, and a more or less balanced game because there is not much that stands out and generic magic.

    And after a year or so, they release brand new army Kislev as the start of overpowered armybooks with crazy special rules and uniqe magics. Needless to say, Kislev sell really well.


    Man... this seems strangely familiar...

    Ha! Your post gave me a good chuckle]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598931.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598931.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors TOW now has a separate tab/category on Warcom. That wasn't there before, was it ?

    https://www.warhammer-community.com/warhammer-the-old-world/]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598961.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11598961.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599030.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599030.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599040.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599040.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Geifer wrote:
    They have sixteen articles in the category but are missing the last three Bretonnian miniature reveals. That's shoddy. I wonder if anything else is missing. Probably not. Sounds about right for four years of previews (or lack thereof).


    I am surprised it is that much. Looking forward tl seeing a few more models tomorrow and maybe a game mid 2025 sometimes?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599042.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599042.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Old-Four-Arms wrote:

    TOW now has a separate tab/category on Warcom. That wasn't there before, was it ?

    https://www.warhammer-community.com/warhammer-the-old-world/


    It being listed on the same level as The Horus Heresy suggests it will be getting more attention than Necromunda does, which is nice if that's the case as that gets a decent amount of stuff. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599056.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599056.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
    Old-Four-Arms wrote:

    TOW now has a separate tab/category on Warcom. That wasn't there before, was it ?

    https://www.warhammer-community.com/warhammer-the-old-world/


    It being listed on the same level as The Horus Heresy suggests it will be getting more attention than Necromunda does, which is nice if that's the case as that gets a decent amount of stuff.


    Yeah Necroumunda has some lovely new art, lore and models - so fine with that]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599070.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599070.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599137.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599137.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     triplegrim wrote:
     Geifer wrote:
    They have sixteen articles in the category but are missing the last three Bretonnian miniature reveals. That's shoddy. I wonder if anything else is missing. Probably not. Sounds about right for four years of previews (or lack thereof).


    I am surprised it is that much. Looking forward tl seeing a few more models tomorrow and maybe a game mid 2025 sometimes?


    Its doubtful something they aren't planning to release for 2 years would get its own section on the website. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599169.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599169.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    and given how long HH needs to reach Terra


    "Modern" HH is at the Siege of Terra. The Siege of Cthonia Campaign Book runs concurrent with the Siege of Terra. We just don't have that campaign as a book yet, but we're at the time period(and technically after).]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599181.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599181.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599186.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599186.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599187.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599187.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     McDougall Designs wrote:
    I'm looking forward to any tomb kings reveals. They've done multiple brets but not much of my crispy undead friends.


    I suspect that the Bretonnian reveals are largely stuff that had been worked on way back, but never got released since the Brets never got a new army book. Tomb Kings aren't currently suffering from that issue since they had a release during 8th Edition.

    Unless they decide it's finally time to release the Hierotitan model, of course. After all, they had rules for it in the 8th Edition army book, so there's a good chance that they had at least some work done on a model for it before End Times shut everything down.



    Actually, all the chatter about the possibility of a "zombie dragon with a liche rider" has me in a bit of a paranoid mood lately. I like the Tomb Kings. They're one of the armies that I ran (the other was Druuchii). And an odd thought keeps surfacing that notes that while the Tomb Kings have never had a dragon in Warhammer Fantasy (or even a hint of a Khemrian dragon in the lore), the 5th Edition undead army from back when mummies were still part of the unified "undead" army had one. That same thought also notes the rumors that there will be an army box with a liche... but without a Tomb King. And my mind notes that while such an army would be illegal under both the 6th and 8th Edition Tomb Kings lists, (which require a Tomb King or Tomb Prince alongside the liche priest), such an army would be quite legal for the 5th Edition unified undead.

    Yes, I'm probably overthinking things. And we don't know whether the "zombie dragon for Tomb Kings" rumor is accurate (I hope not; dragons quite bluntly have no place in a Khemrian army for thematic reasons). And yet...
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599189.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599189.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599199.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599199.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Grail Seeker wrote:
    Eh. The dragon might be more of a construct than a zombie dragon. I suppose we will know for sure soon enough.


    Personally, I hope it's not even a construct dragon. The existing constructs, like the Necrosphinx, do the job just fine. And as I said above, dragons don't really fit thematically with the Tomb Kings, imo.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599203.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599203.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW.

    As others have noted, a dragon mount was part of the Tomb King range for Warmaster, so would not be completly new.
    Also, as the info is just based on a rumor, the model spotted by the source could be something simliar but not quite like a dragon.
    The counterpart, in size at least, of the bretonnian pegasus would be the undead Dread Abyssal.
    Thus, the rumored undead dragon could look similar to this mount:
    https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99120207031_DeathLordsMortarchsArkhantheBlack01.jpg
    Which by the way also is a construct and so would fit the design of the Tomb King army.

    I‘m looking forward to the preview today.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599205.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599205.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Platuan4th wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    and given how long HH needs to reach Terra


    "Modern" HH is at the Siege of Terra. The Siege of Cthonia Campaign Book runs concurrent with the Siege of Terra. We just don't have that campaign as a book yet, but we're at the time period(and technically after).

    So you mean we won't see Kislev with this version of TOW but with the 2nd Edition in 10-15 years?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599207.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599207.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors surely - today is the day when The Old World will be properly revealed, right?

    Not just another "And here's a new Bretonnian minis that will come out sometime in the future!" nonsense we've gotten up to now, right?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599265.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599265.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599274.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599274.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599275.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599275.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors new named characters - so period specific Bretonnians or Tomb Kings that have not been done before.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599277.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599277.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    Surely - surely - today is the day when The Old World will be properly revealed, right?

    Not just another "And here's a new Bretonnian minis that will come out sometime in the future!" nonsense we've gotten up to now, right?


    2025 release. Read my keyboardstrokes.

    They will reveal a few bretonnians. Maybe a tomb king. Laugh at blueballing their fans at thats it.

    Play 6th or something rather than wait for ToW. Its just a vehicle to suffocate competition for gw.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599278.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599278.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    Surely - surely - today is the day when The Old World will be properly revealed, right?

    Not just another "And here's a new Bretonnian minis that will come out sometime in the future!" nonsense we've gotten up to now, right?


    I hope so just to put a stop to the ludicrous ‘2025’ claims every other post.

    Edit: lol, hadn’t gone on to the next page. Kinda have to admire the commitment to something so in danger of being disproven within hours. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599282.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599282.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     triplegrim wrote:
     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    Surely - surely - today is the day when The Old World will be properly revealed, right?

    Not just another "And here's a new Bretonnian minis that will come out sometime in the future!" nonsense we've gotten up to now, right?


    2025 release. Read my keyboardstrokes.

    They will reveal a few bretonnians. Maybe a tomb king. Laugh at blueballing their fans at thats it.

    Play 6th or something rather than wait for ToW. Its just a vehicle to suffocate competition for gw.



    Ahaha,. 2025. Good guess. Just year off. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599474.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599474.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW will never miss the opportunity to release TOW with 40th anniversary
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599486.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599486.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW originally planned for that. They are saying early 2024 and if you take out the pandemic and a few other messy things then they could quite easily have hit the 40th anniversary with the release ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599488.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599488.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    But I still think that was just an odd preview that doesn't tell us that much, even after all this time with it being so close to release. We know what only 1 out of 9 armies planned for this game are getting. We have no idea about the other 7 armies lots at all and if they're even actually getting things at launch, if there's any sort of starter/initial box, if this is just going to be Bretonnia and someone else with us waiting to have other the armies slowly added or if they'll just all be there right away, and they didn't even show any more Tomb Kings.

    It feels like they're still not revealing it properly and not committing to it enough. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599493.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599493.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Overread wrote:
    To be fair I can well see that GW originally planned for that. They are saying early 2024 and if you take out the pandemic and a few other messy things then they could quite easily have hit the 40th anniversary with the release

    More like without whatever screwup triggered the recall of the LI books and the subsequent delay there. I mean people had their prerelease review copies in hand which means that preorders were due a month ago.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599494.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599494.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    They will fit perfectly in a City of Sigmar converted army for sure.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599495.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599495.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    as wrong as the people claiming it must be 2023 and GW will never miss the opportunity to release TOW with 40th anniversary

    There is quite a difference between "expecting late 2023, it comes out in early 2024" and "guys, guys, guuyyyysss! 2025 or 2026, for sure!". One was based on reasonable assumptions, the other was delusional trolling.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599502.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599502.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599506.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599506.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I'm really hoping that does come back (hopefully as a muti-pack bundle)

    I really, really need to be able to buy it at a (mostly) reasonable price to finally be able to build a full blown warhammer-city siege table. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599509.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599509.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW would do a "MTO" for metal versions of the kits that are getting replaced by FW resin, so that people at least have the option ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599512.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599512.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Shadow Walker wrote:
    New foot knights are the star of this show for me.


    I'm looking forward to a certain section of people lose their over there being women foot knights.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599514.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599514.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mr_Rose wrote:
     Overread wrote:
    To be fair I can well see that GW originally planned for that. They are saying early 2024 and if you take out the pandemic and a few other messy things then they could quite easily have hit the 40th anniversary with the release

    More like without whatever screwup triggered the recall of the LI books and the subsequent delay there. I mean people had their prerelease review copies in hand which means that preorders were due a month ago.

    given that GW does not even delay the supplement for LI, pushing a bigger release back, meaning all the stuff ready for release sitting in the warehouse costing them money (space is expansive), taking up space that is needed for other future releases, is not really realistic

    whatever was the reason for the LI dealy, it did not push TOW back 4+ months]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599516.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599516.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
     Shadow Walker wrote:
    New foot knights are the star of this show for me.


    I'm looking forward to a certain section of people lose their over there being women foot knights.

    Maybe, maybe not. Bretonnia is strongly based on medieval France, and Jeanne d'Arc is a thing.

    Actually a cool thing to provide that female head in plastic, since it allows for easy conversion of "Jean d'Arch" on whatever mount you want. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599520.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599520.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
     Shadow Walker wrote:
    New foot knights are the star of this show for me.


    I'm looking forward to a certain section of people lose their over there being women foot knights.



    Seeing women knights are a thing...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599524.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599524.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Oh, these are going to be BIG boxes. Expensive, but I guess you'll feel better getting at least one unit to a box now?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599527.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599527.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     infinite_array wrote:
    "With the Peasant Bowmen box, you’ll be able to build a unit of 32 archers, complete with a command group and Defensive Stakes."

    Oh, these are going to be BIG boxes. Expensive, but I guess you'll feel better getting at least one unit to a box now?


    Going for the Horus Heresy price point by having lots of dudes per box.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599528.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599528.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599529.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599529.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Darnok wrote:
     Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
     Shadow Walker wrote:
    New foot knights are the star of this show for me.


    I'm looking forward to a certain section of people lose their over there being women foot knights.

    Maybe, maybe not. Bretonnia is strongly based on medieval France, and Jeanne d'Arc is a thing.

    Actually a cool thing to provide that female head in plastic, since it allows for easy conversion of "Jean d'Arch" on whatever mount you want.


    You mean https://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Repanse_de_Lyonesse ?



    Although she was unusual its never stated she was unique that I recall.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599535.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599535.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Shakalooloo wrote:
     infinite_array wrote:
    "With the Peasant Bowmen box, you’ll be able to build a unit of 32 archers, complete with a command group and Defensive Stakes."

    Oh, these are going to be BIG boxes. Expensive, but I guess you'll feel better getting at least one unit to a box now?

    Going for the Horus Heresy price point by having lots of dudes per box.


    not sure if 32 models with a single command for 60€ is something to be excited about]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599538.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599538.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mr_Rose wrote:
     Overread wrote:
    To be fair I can well see that GW originally planned for that. They are saying early 2024 and if you take out the pandemic and a few other messy things then they could quite easily have hit the 40th anniversary with the release

    More like without whatever screwup triggered the recall of the LI books and the subsequent delay there. I mean people had their prerelease review copies in hand which means that preorders were due a month ago.

    There's a lot of things that clearly have been going on "behind the scenes". Note that the Dawnbringers Book III teaser had "Nova Open" badging for the reveal.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599540.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599540.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    like questing Knights go with the 2 handed weapons from the Foot Knights, Grail Knight by taking the new helmets etc.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599547.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599547.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
     Shakalooloo wrote:
     infinite_array wrote:
    "With the Peasant Bowmen box, you’ll be able to build a unit of 32 archers, complete with a command group and Defensive Stakes."

    Oh, these are going to be BIG boxes. Expensive, but I guess you'll feel better getting at least one unit to a box now?

    Going for the Horus Heresy price point by having lots of dudes per box.


    not sure if 32 models with a single command for 60€ is something to be excited about


    If the the bowmen and infantry kits are returning in 'huge boxes' of 32 models....

    But the bowmen are being shown as units of 18 (not counting the stakes), but you get 32 in a box. I suspect this is going to cause a bit of outcry when people realise these new big boxes being advertised as being able to build full units, are likely to have too many or two few to actually play the units as they intend the game to play!

    Classic GW!

    Thankfully I fully support the use of unit fillers (Including 'blank' bases if needed), so I'll be able to get two units out of each of those sets! ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599548.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599548.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW, I would be totally fine with throwing out very speculative release dates knowing that a portion of the fanbase will 1) buy it and 2) defend any sort of delay to the death when it happens.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599551.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599551.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     caladancid wrote:
    If I was GW, I would be totally fine with throwing out very speculative release dates knowing that a portion of the fanbase will 1) buy it and 2) defend any sort of delay to the death when it happens.


    I don't think anyone is defending, they are just looking for logical reasons why there's a delay. Ergo understanding why a delay might have or has happened for something.

    Understanding can help temper expectations for the future. Eg if you know that product X was delayed because of a general shipping issue then you can expect more delays on other products. But if it was delayed because of a purely internal thing - eg a mixup on some components - then you know it might have a reduced knock on effect on other unrelated products etc....]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599554.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599554.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    From the War Com article. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599558.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599558.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Overread wrote:
     caladancid wrote:
    If I was GW, I would be totally fine with throwing out very speculative release dates knowing that a portion of the fanbase will 1) buy it and 2) defend any sort of delay to the death when it happens.


    I don't think anyone is defending, they are just looking for logical reasons why there's a delay. Ergo understanding why a delay might have or has happened for something.

    Understanding can help temper expectations for the future. Eg if you know that product X was delayed because of a general shipping issue then you can expect more delays on other products. But if it was delayed because of a purely internal thing - eg a mixup on some components - then you know it might have a reduced knock on effect on other unrelated products etc....

    if there is a delay, we just assume GW won't be that stupid to skip the 40th anniversary, but that was already at Warhammer Fest and the chance already missed with that event

    for now all we have is that it was always planned for 2024, and GW just never thought that the people associate Warhammer (the generic brand) with TOW, the same way people don't expect TOW when visiting a Warhammer store]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599563.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599563.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     ImAGeek wrote:
     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    Surely - surely - today is the day when The Old World will be properly revealed, right?

    Not just another "And here's a new Bretonnian minis that will come out sometime in the future!" nonsense we've gotten up to now, right?


    I hope so just to put a stop to the ludicrous ‘2025’ claims every other post.

    Edit: lol, hadn’t gone on to the next page. Kinda have to admire the commitment to something so in danger of being disproven within hours.


    Come again?

    I take no pleasure in being so right about them revealing a few bretonnians and blueballing us for a release. I am however a little ashamed at believing they MIGHT have shown a tomb king model, that was obviously too optimistic. My apologies for not being realistic enough.

    2025 release is the most likely looking at what they have now.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599565.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599565.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
     Overread wrote:
     caladancid wrote:
    If I was GW, I would be totally fine with throwing out very speculative release dates knowing that a portion of the fanbase will 1) buy it and 2) defend any sort of delay to the death when it happens.


    I don't think anyone is defending, they are just looking for logical reasons why there's a delay. Ergo understanding why a delay might have or has happened for something.

    Understanding can help temper expectations for the future. Eg if you know that product X was delayed because of a general shipping issue then you can expect more delays on other products. But if it was delayed because of a purely internal thing - eg a mixup on some components - then you know it might have a reduced knock on effect on other unrelated products etc....

    if there is a delay, we just assume GW won't be that stupid to skip the 40th anniversary, but that was already at Warhammer Fest and the chance already missed with that event

    for now all we have is that it was always planned for 2024, and GW just never thought that the people associate Warhammer (the generic brand) with TOW, the same way people don't expect TOW when visiting a Warhammer store



    Well that's your assumption. We know neither though


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     triplegrim wrote:

    I take no pleasure in being so right about them revealing a few bretonnians and blueballing us for a release. I am however a little ashamed at believing they MIGHT have shown a tomb king model, that was obviously too optimistic. My apologies for not being realistic enough.

    2025 release is the most likely looking at what they have now.


    Uuh...seeing they just confirmed early 2024 release...you MIGHT want to reconsider that last phrase.

    Or you seriously claim to know tow release date better than gw itself?

    It's 2024. 2024. 2024. 2024.

    How many more repeats you want?-)

    Rather funny you keep going on about 2025 literally barely after hour gw flat out proved you wrong. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599566.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599566.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    tneva82 wrote:
     kodos wrote:
     Overread wrote:
     caladancid wrote:
    If I was GW, I would be totally fine with throwing out very speculative release dates knowing that a portion of the fanbase will 1) buy it and 2) defend any sort of delay to the death when it happens.


    I don't think anyone is defending, they are just looking for logical reasons why there's a delay. Ergo understanding why a delay might have or has happened for something.

    Understanding can help temper expectations for the future. Eg if you know that product X was delayed because of a general shipping issue then you can expect more delays on other products. But if it was delayed because of a purely internal thing - eg a mixup on some components - then you know it might have a reduced knock on effect on other unrelated products etc....

    if there is a delay, we just assume GW won't be that stupid to skip the 40th anniversary, but that was already at Warhammer Fest and the chance already missed with that event

    for now all we have is that it was always planned for 2024, and GW just never thought that the people associate Warhammer (the generic brand) with TOW, the same way people don't expect TOW when visiting a Warhammer store



    Well that's your assumption. We know neither though


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     triplegrim wrote:

    I take no pleasure in being so right about them revealing a few bretonnians and blueballing us for a release. I am however a little ashamed at believing they MIGHT have shown a tomb king model, that was obviously too optimistic. My apologies for not being realistic enough.

    2025 release is the most likely looking at what they have now.


    Uuh...seeing they just confirmed early 2024 release...you MIGHT want to reconsider that last phrase.

    Or you seriously claim to know tow release date better than gw itself?

    It's 2024. 2024. 2024. 2024.

    How many more repeats you want?-)


    I believe that when I see it. Untill then, no way this game is 6 months from release, as they try to bs the congregation into believing, and I doubt it'll be a christmas 2024 release too.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599569.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599569.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    tneva82 wrote:
    Well that's your assumption. We know neither though
    and the other assumption is simply based on wishful thinking and now searching for an excuse so that they were still right

    if GW does not even delay the supplement release for LI, which is just stupid to get that stuff previewed before the actual game is released, no chance that TOW was always planned for that slot
    because that slot was planned for LI add-ons]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599571.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599571.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Why is it unlikely to be ready next year??]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599573.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599573.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599574.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599574.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     triplegrim wrote:

    I believe that when I see it. Untill then, no way this game is 6 months from release, as they try to bs the congregation into believing, and I doubt it'll be a christmas 2024 release too.


    Ah. So ego prevents admitting being wrong and you'll keep repeating 2025 even when it's in stores front of you january 2024.

    Off to ignore list. Not worth my time to read your posts more.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599577.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599577.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     triplegrim wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
     kodos wrote:
     Overread wrote:
     caladancid wrote:
    If I was GW, I would be totally fine with throwing out very speculative release dates knowing that a portion of the fanbase will 1) buy it and 2) defend any sort of delay to the death when it happens.


    I don't think anyone is defending, they are just looking for logical reasons why there's a delay. Ergo understanding why a delay might have or has happened for something.

    Understanding can help temper expectations for the future. Eg if you know that product X was delayed because of a general shipping issue then you can expect more delays on other products. But if it was delayed because of a purely internal thing - eg a mixup on some components - then you know it might have a reduced knock on effect on other unrelated products etc....

    if there is a delay, we just assume GW won't be that stupid to skip the 40th anniversary, but that was already at Warhammer Fest and the chance already missed with that event

    for now all we have is that it was always planned for 2024, and GW just never thought that the people associate Warhammer (the generic brand) with TOW, the same way people don't expect TOW when visiting a Warhammer store



    Well that's your assumption. We know neither though


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     triplegrim wrote:

    I take no pleasure in being so right about them revealing a few bretonnians and blueballing us for a release. I am however a little ashamed at believing they MIGHT have shown a tomb king model, that was obviously too optimistic. My apologies for not being realistic enough.

    2025 release is the most likely looking at what they have now.


    Uuh...seeing they just confirmed early 2024 release...you MIGHT want to reconsider that last phrase.

    Or you seriously claim to know tow release date better than gw itself?

    It's 2024. 2024. 2024. 2024.

    How many more repeats you want?-)


    I believe that when I see it. Untill then, no way this game is 6 months from release, as they try to bs the congregation into believing, and I doubt it'll be a christmas 2024 release too.


    Congregation is a great way of describing it haha.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599579.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599579.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     GaroRobe wrote:
    We’ve seen the plastic sprue for the Pegasus. The rest are either 1 new plastic unit, returning models, or resin
    Why is it unlikely to be ready next year??
    releasing Bretonnia early next year is out of question]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599585.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599585.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Now the phrase “at launch” has been used a lot, and we are delighted to be able to confirm that Warhammer: The Old World will be released in early 2024. As we get closer to release we’ll be revealing more details of this game of fantasy battles in the World of Legend, and revealing plenty exciting things including miniatures and books.


    https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/10/14/warhammer-day-preview-the-kingdom-of-bretonnia-revealed/

    And on the stream, Old World was said to be one of the first releases of 2024.

    Right, then. Sorry for interrupting. Feel free to go back to denying facts.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599587.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599587.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors That's less content than I would expect for an 8E army book update.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599590.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599590.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Mozzamanx wrote:
    So to confirm, one of the flagship releases for TOW consists of a single plastic unit, a plastic hero set, and 4 resin characters?
    That's less content than I would expect for an 8E army book update.


    Seems consistent with what we've been shown especially this year. GW wants all the nostalgia monies but none of the risk of investing in a potential dud. It's conservative to the point of torpedoing the game's success. In a way it doesn't get more GW than that.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599595.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599595.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    If 2024 just sees a book, Bretonnia, Emoire and a handful of rereleased old models for some of the old ranges, then I would say they did not reall deliver on the tease. It would be a great big Made to Order, and great for people who think the rules are the important part of a release, but a total dud as far as I’m concerned.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599596.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599596.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
    Does the 2024 launch include Kislev? Cathay?


    I'd advise forgetting about those. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599606.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599606.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
    Does the 2024 launch include Kislev? Cathay? Tomb Kings? Those were the releases they teased to excite gamers like me.

    If 2024 just sees a book, Bretonnia, Emoire and a handful of rereleased old models for some of the old ranges, then I would say they did not reall deliver on the tease. It would be a great big Made to Order, and great for people who think the rules are the important part of a release, but a total dud as far as I’m concerned.


    Kislev and Cathay aren’t coming, anytime soon at least. We had a list of factions that are being focused on to start with and they aren’t among them. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599607.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599607.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    tneva82 wrote:
     triplegrim wrote:

    I believe that when I see it. Untill then, no way this game is 6 months from release, as they try to bs the congregation into believing, and I doubt it'll be a christmas 2024 release too.


    Ah. So ego prevents admitting being wrong and you'll keep repeating 2025 even when it's in stores front of you january 2024.

    Off to ignore list. Not worth my time to read your posts more.


    Yeah, totally bizarre temper tantrum or whatever for this guy to be taking. They literally said it will be one of the first releases out of the door in early 2024. If GW is willing to confirm that then its as good as a done deal, only way it gets pushed back is if they have to last minute destroy all the rulebooks and reprint them like they did with LI.

     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
    Does the 2024 launch include Kislev? Cathay? Tomb Kings? Those were the releases they teased to excite gamers like me.

    If 2024 just sees a book, Bretonnia, Emoire and a handful of rereleased old models for some of the old ranges, then I would say they did not reall deliver on the tease. It would be a great big Made to Order, and great for people who think the rules are the important part of a release, but a total dud as far as I’m concerned.


    All signs point to "no". As has been discussed ad nauseum, this seems to be a "soft launch" focused on getting the rules out and getting people playing rather than a full on hard launch with all new models and content like we've come to expect from Horus Heresy, AoS, 40k, etc. New core rulebook plus rules for the 9 or whatever core factions plus pdfs legends army lists for the 7 factions that are cut from the game. Return of the legacy model kits for those core factions plus a literal handful of new plastic kits for Tomb Kings and Bretonnia and a bunch of new resin heroes and whatnot, followed by a slow dribble of new plastics/resins for some of the other factions. Theres no timeline on Kislev or Cathay or anything really substantial beyond that, I suspect we may see a substantial release of new models for Kislev or another faction late next year or possibly in the 2025 timeframe. TBH I don't think Cathay is coming for quite some time, possibly several years.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599609.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599609.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     SgtBANZAI wrote:
     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
    Does the 2024 launch include Kislev? Cathay?


    I'd advise forgetting about those.


    That’s what I was afraid you were going to say.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599615.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599615.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    It occurred to me that while they are hyping "big box" regiment kits containing a full size unit in a single box, the previewed foot knights appear to come in a box of 10. On the one hand they are a "small elite unit" which make sense in a 10 man box, on the flip side, thats not really a "regiment", is it?
    guess even GW figured out that let people pay current prices for old models in a 10-16 model box is a little too much
    so putting more models in the box so it looks less bad

    on the other hand, if 32 models is the new standard size aka a "full regiment" at 8x4, this will be 24cm wide and you won't fit a lot of those "full regiments" on a 6x4 table]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599618.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599618.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599619.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599619.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599621.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599621.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    The foot knights were confirmed plastic, thats not even a subject of debate.


    Excellent, hadn't heard that, this is excellent news and they seem to aesthetically be a good fit with the rest, a box, perhaps even pushed to two will be added. have a few other games human knights on foot will work for as well so happy with that]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599624.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599624.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Im happy with what I've seen ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599626.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599626.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    as wrong as the people claiming it must be 2023 and GW will never miss the opportunity to release TOW with 40th anniversary


    I don't think a 40th anniversary is that big a thing, I would imagine GW is really aiming for the big event, the 50th anniversary in 2033.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    (Just saw the early 2024 confirmation, excuse my humor, put me down for some men at arms and foot knights I think)]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599627.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599627.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    It occurred to me that while they are hyping "big box" regiment kits containing a full size unit in a single box, the previewed foot knights appear to come in a box of 10. On the one hand they are a "small elite unit" which make sense in a 10 man box, on the flip side, thats not really a "regiment", is it?

    tneva82 wrote:
     triplegrim wrote:

    I believe that when I see it. Untill then, no way this game is 6 months from release, as they try to bs the congregation into believing, and I doubt it'll be a christmas 2024 release too.


    Ah. So ego prevents admitting being wrong and you'll keep repeating 2025 even when it's in stores front of you january 2024.

    Off to ignore list. Not worth my time to read your posts more.


    Yeah, totally bizarre temper tantrum or whatever for this guy to be taking. They literally said it will be one of the first releases out of the door in early 2024. If GW is willing to confirm that then its as good as a done deal, only way it gets pushed back is if they have to last minute destroy all the rulebooks and reprint them like they did with LI.

     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
    Does the 2024 launch include Kislev? Cathay? Tomb Kings? Those were the releases they teased to excite gamers like me.

    If 2024 just sees a book, Bretonnia, Emoire and a handful of rereleased old models for some of the old ranges, then I would say they did not reall deliver on the tease. It would be a great big Made to Order, and great for people who think the rules are the important part of a release, but a total dud as far as I’m concerned.


    All signs point to "no". As has been discussed ad nauseum, this seems to be a "soft launch" focused on getting the rules out and getting people playing rather than a full on hard launch with all new models and content like we've come to expect from Horus Heresy, AoS, 40k, etc. New core rulebook plus rules for the 9 or whatever core factions plus pdfs legends army lists for the 7 factions that are cut from the game. Return of the legacy model kits for those core factions plus a literal handful of new plastic kits for Tomb Kings and Bretonnia and a bunch of new resin heroes and whatnot, followed by a slow dribble of new plastics/resins for some of the other factions. Theres no timeline on Kislev or Cathay or anything really substantial beyond that, I suspect we may see a substantial release of new models for Kislev or another faction late next year or possibly in the 2025 timeframe. TBH I don't think Cathay is coming for quite some time, possibly several years.


    This is what makes no sense to me. Back in 2020, GW said that bear models were coming to TOW. Here is the link so you can't deny it. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/05/11/old-world-update-bearsgw-homepage-post-4/

    Three years later, even you admit that appears to be as good as gone. And yet, you and others still take and defend GW's word as good and react so strongly to those who rightfully question them. Baffling.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599630.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599630.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    It occurred to me that while they are hyping "big box" regiment kits containing a full size unit in a single box, the previewed foot knights appear to come in a box of 10. On the one hand they are a "small elite unit" which make sense in a 10 man box, on the flip side, thats not really a "regiment", is it?


    Depends. All the pictured regiments so far have been on the small side - 10 foot knights, 18 peasant infantry, 6 mounted knights etc. That might just be down to unspecified practical reasons (e.g. that is all they have painted at the moment), or it could be an indicator that they are basing the game scale off of earlier editions of warhammer where those kind of regiment sizes were actually fairly typical. That would make sense for pandering to a sense of 1990s nostalgia and it would also help to keep the cost of entry in check. Harping back to an era where swordmasters typically came in units of 6-12 rather than 40-50 would certainly tempt a lot more people into buying in.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599632.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599632.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599634.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599634.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     rybackstun wrote:
    Pegasus Paladin and Paladin with Banner are dope. Foot Knights are also dope.

    Im happy with what I've seen


    I dont mind resin, so I'm happy with all I've seen. Models looks good. Cant wait to give them a brighter look and paint job. And the unicorn with roses and barefeet rider is my favorite looking all time bretonnia model I think, after green knight.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599637.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599637.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors FW resin and not "It's finecast but we called it Forgeworld" ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599639.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599639.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors FW resin. However, it wasn't quite Finecast either. It's doable but I've had better resin elsewhere.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599645.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599645.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599646.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599646.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     frankelee wrote:
    I guess it probably shouldn't be surprising the Kislev ice guard might be scrapped. It was very not-Warhammer-Fantasy-Battles.


    It was lore friendly given the Ice Witches importance in Kislev and they were very similar to the Sisters of Avelorn.

    They were approved by GW for Total War Warhammer and so are extremely unlikely not to appear in the Kislev army book if and when it appears.

    Warhammer is not all nameless nobodies hunting skaven in the sewers - esp Fantasy Batlle with Greater Daemons, Dragons, Screaming Bells, Coven Thrones, etc etc]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599648.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599648.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     caladancid wrote:
    Spoiler:
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    It occurred to me that while they are hyping "big box" regiment kits containing a full size unit in a single box, the previewed foot knights appear to come in a box of 10. On the one hand they are a "small elite unit" which make sense in a 10 man box, on the flip side, thats not really a "regiment", is it?

    tneva82 wrote:
     triplegrim wrote:

    I believe that when I see it. Untill then, no way this game is 6 months from release, as they try to bs the congregation into believing, and I doubt it'll be a christmas 2024 release too.


    Ah. So ego prevents admitting being wrong and you'll keep repeating 2025 even when it's in stores front of you january 2024.

    Off to ignore list. Not worth my time to read your posts more.


    Yeah, totally bizarre temper tantrum or whatever for this guy to be taking. They literally said it will be one of the first releases out of the door in early 2024. If GW is willing to confirm that then its as good as a done deal, only way it gets pushed back is if they have to last minute destroy all the rulebooks and reprint them like they did with LI.

     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
    Does the 2024 launch include Kislev? Cathay? Tomb Kings? Those were the releases they teased to excite gamers like me.

    If 2024 just sees a book, Bretonnia, Emoire and a handful of rereleased old models for some of the old ranges, then I would say they did not reall deliver on the tease. It would be a great big Made to Order, and great for people who think the rules are the important part of a release, but a total dud as far as I’m concerned.


    All signs point to "no". As has been discussed ad nauseum, this seems to be a "soft launch" focused on getting the rules out and getting people playing rather than a full on hard launch with all new models and content like we've come to expect from Horus Heresy, AoS, 40k, etc. New core rulebook plus rules for the 9 or whatever core factions plus pdfs legends army lists for the 7 factions that are cut from the game. Return of the legacy model kits for those core factions plus a literal handful of new plastic kits for Tomb Kings and Bretonnia and a bunch of new resin heroes and whatnot, followed by a slow dribble of new plastics/resins for some of the other factions. Theres no timeline on Kislev or Cathay or anything really substantial beyond that, I suspect we may see a substantial release of new models for Kislev or another faction late next year or possibly in the 2025 timeframe. TBH I don't think Cathay is coming for quite some time, possibly several years.


    This is what makes no sense to me. Back in 2020, GW said that bear models were coming to TOW. Here is the link so you can't deny it. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/05/11/old-world-update-bearsgw-homepage-post-4/

    Three years later, even you admit that appears to be as good as gone. And yet, you and others still take and defend GW's word as good and react so strongly to those who rightfully question them. Baffling.


    Bizarrely insisting the game isn’t coming out until 2025 when we’ve been told it’s like 3 months away isn’t ‘questioning’, it’s being obstinate. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599650.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599650.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599652.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599652.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    They aren't a million miles off the price of the plastic ones ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599655.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599655.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Vorian wrote:
    What's the issue with some characters being resin?

    They aren't a million miles off the price of the plastic ones

    The issue is that they are resin not plastic. Most people like plastic not resin for their minis for many reasons.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599657.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599657.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599659.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599659.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors The foot knights are fine, maybe a bit too detailed for my taste.

    There's nothing special to say about the resin figurine.

    But let's be honest, the pose and details of the old models are not up to par, and clearly, that will prevent me from making an impulsive purchase. It would have been good not to relaunch something that is 15 years old with a more limited but high-quality range (like the Cities of Sigmar) and not end up with mediocre basic troops.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599661.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599661.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     caladancid wrote:
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    It occurred to me that while they are hyping "big box" regiment kits containing a full size unit in a single box, the previewed foot knights appear to come in a box of 10. On the one hand they are a "small elite unit" which make sense in a 10 man box, on the flip side, thats not really a "regiment", is it?

    tneva82 wrote:
     triplegrim wrote:

    I believe that when I see it. Untill then, no way this game is 6 months from release, as they try to bs the congregation into believing, and I doubt it'll be a christmas 2024 release too.


    Ah. So ego prevents admitting being wrong and you'll keep repeating 2025 even when it's in stores front of you january 2024.

    Off to ignore list. Not worth my time to read your posts more.


    Yeah, totally bizarre temper tantrum or whatever for this guy to be taking. They literally said it will be one of the first releases out of the door in early 2024. If GW is willing to confirm that then its as good as a done deal, only way it gets pushed back is if they have to last minute destroy all the rulebooks and reprint them like they did with LI.

     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
    Does the 2024 launch include Kislev? Cathay? Tomb Kings? Those were the releases they teased to excite gamers like me.

    If 2024 just sees a book, Bretonnia, Emoire and a handful of rereleased old models for some of the old ranges, then I would say they did not reall deliver on the tease. It would be a great big Made to Order, and great for people who think the rules are the important part of a release, but a total dud as far as I’m concerned.


    All signs point to "no". As has been discussed ad nauseum, this seems to be a "soft launch" focused on getting the rules out and getting people playing rather than a full on hard launch with all new models and content like we've come to expect from Horus Heresy, AoS, 40k, etc. New core rulebook plus rules for the 9 or whatever core factions plus pdfs legends army lists for the 7 factions that are cut from the game. Return of the legacy model kits for those core factions plus a literal handful of new plastic kits for Tomb Kings and Bretonnia and a bunch of new resin heroes and whatnot, followed by a slow dribble of new plastics/resins for some of the other factions. Theres no timeline on Kislev or Cathay or anything really substantial beyond that, I suspect we may see a substantial release of new models for Kislev or another faction late next year or possibly in the 2025 timeframe. TBH I don't think Cathay is coming for quite some time, possibly several years.


    This is what makes no sense to me. Back in 2020, GW said that bear models were coming to TOW. Here is the link so you can't deny it. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/05/11/old-world-update-bearsgw-homepage-post-4/




    Why would I deny it? I just stated I expect Kislev to be a follow-on launch. If you scroll past the last few pages I've been pointing out that Kislev is narratively present in what we know to be the setting of the first wave of releases in. Hell, thats not even the only article confirming that Kislev would be coming to The Old World, theres 5 or 6 total discussing it.

    Three years later, even you admit that appears to be as good as gone. And yet, you and others still take and defend GW's word as good and react so strongly to those who rightfully question them. Baffling.




    Here's the problem, and I'll make it as simple as I can for you - I'm not dense and I'm not impatient, and I know how to exercise common sense. It probably also helps that I work in manufacturing and have had enough interaction with GW insiders to know how ridiculously long it takes them to produce pretty much anything, and understand full well that even without the pandemic, ERP, and supply chain issues that GW has been faced with it would have been unlikely for Kislev to have been released within a 3 year timeframe. Nor did GW promise you that Kislev or the game would be released in 2023 - in fact, it was pretty unlikely to begin with as they announced the game at the end of 2019 and said to expect "three or more" years before release, and that was just before we were hit by a global pandemic (just 3 months later) that generally disrupted business timelines globally by about 12-18 months on average.

    Point is, I can read a warcom article about what are variously labeled as "main factions", "core factions", and "returning factions", etc. and understand that this doesn't preclude the existence of factions which are "minor factions", "secondary factions", or "new factions", etc. such as Kislev. I can look at a newly drawn map of the Border Princes region created for the game and notice that they created some entirely new principalities, one of which is Kislev influenced, and infer from that that it wasn't a coincidence nor an accident and that this is the narrative opening needed for the inclusion of Kislev in an area not traditionally associated with Kislev. I can read an article that explicitly says that Kislev will be coming to the tabletop, and understand that this doesn't mean that they are first in line. I can read an article that says that Kislev bear minis are still a long way off, and understand that means that it will take time for them to come.

    That you are "questioning" (thats certainly a polite word to describe the behavior) GW is a "you" problem, not a "me" problem, nor a "GW" problem. GW never promised you that Kislev would be first out of the gate, nor that they would be a big player or an important faction or a core faction nor be available on launch, nor be featured in a starter box, etc. If thats what you thought was going to happen or expected, thats a "you" problem. GW has told us that Kislev will be featured in the game, and thats enough for me to know that they will, in fact, be featured in the game when they are done and ready to do so, in whatever form they take. GW is now telling us that the game will launch within a few months in early 2024, and thats pretty much word of god and theres not much need to question it. GW knows what its production timetables look like and generally has a solid picture of its product pipeline looking at least 6 months out. If they are telling us early 2024 its because it actually is coming in early 2024. At this stage their development on launch product is coming to a close, molds have been or are being cut, books are going through final layout and revision, etc. This isn't a situation in which they say "early 2024" and then a year from now they say "just kidding, we actually had nothing done at the time and we were just overly ambitious and thought we could start it up and get it done in a few days like when we were cramming for our exams at school".

    In general, I would say the biggest problem that a large segment of this community has had is a failure to manage expectations from the very beginning. GW was pretty upfront that this would not be a continuation of WHFB but instead a whole new game in a semi-familiar setting, and it was pretty clear early on this was being headed up by forgeworld/specialist studio rather than the "main studio" which meant that there would be resource limitations with regards to what they could realistically accomplish, etc. Likewise they were very clear it would take *years* to get it out the door. There were obviously going to be changes and limitations and things would not go the way that the majority seemed to want/expect. If you go back far enough into dakka history you will see that I was involved in some pretty heated and acrimonious debates about what to expect from the very start, and while there were some things I was certainly wrong about (did not expect to see High Elves, I figured Vampire Counts and Skaven would be included, I was also lobbying hard for this to possibly be a return of Warmaster instead of WHFB, etc. and expected the launch to be Empire-focused with two factions made up of new Empire kits fighting the civil war/three emperors conflict), there were many more things I was right on the money about (no lizardmen, no dark elves, set in a different era that limits the presence of certain units and technologies, size/scale differences vs old WHFB - particularly with regards to base sizes, etc.). There were quite a few of us who urged caution and recommended that people not run out and buy an army of legacy kits and start building/painting stuff up so far in advance of release until it became clearer what was going on, but there were many more who ignored us, told us we were obtuse or whatever, and went out and did it anyway - those are the people who are now the most pissed off and angry about TOW, and its overwhelmingly their own fault for jumping to conclusions (as such I have zero sympathy nor pity for them).

    Then there are those people who were sensible enough not to go out and buy a new army for the game without knowing anything at all about it, but still jumped to conclusion and had expectations that reality does not meet. Many of these people inferred information into statements and articles that they didn't actually say and created understandings of the situation for themselves that go completely against established precedent for how GW usually conducts business, etc. Sucks that these people were let down by the fantasy they created for themsleves in their own head, but again thats a "you" problem, not a "me" or a "GW" problem. The only thing you can really blame GW for is not being more explicitly clear in its communication about what to expect, but I don't think even GW had a solid picture of that until relatively recently - and even then what are they supposed to do when a large segment of the community and fanbase has basically just been making gak up whole clothe out of thin air for the past 3 years about what this game would and wouldn't be, evne when GW has been explicit and direct in trying to communicate something different?

    So, back to your original statement - no, I'm not going to admit that Kislev is "as good as gone", because I never expected them to show up so soon to begin with in the first place, nor do I understand the recent lack of mention of them to mean that they have been shelved or abandoned. Likewise I am not "defending GW" so much as I am attacking the ridiculous, unreasonable, and illogical mental gymnastics that some are using to distort reality. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599672.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599672.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    GW is now telling us that the game will launch within a few months in early 2024, and thats pretty much word of god and theres not much need to question it.


    ???.

    I dont know where reality ends and satire begins anymore.

    I believe, from my 3 decades of consumer experience, that such a launch, if it happens, will be very limited compared to even just a pdf Ravening horde/6th MRB reprint and old sets for the 9 factions they have promised. From what they've shown, it seems doubtfull there can by a full release in a few months. Sorry, but thats just from what we've been shown and told.

    Time will show. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599682.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599682.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW usually gives us even less of a window to work with when they are launching a new edition of 40k or AoS, and those usually come with a lot more product than they have promised us for TOW. Now they're giving us a 3-6 month window with the promise of not having to release very much of anything and you're acting like its some impossible task.

    Get real.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599694.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599694.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    March (just as an example): The Old World Starter Set (I'm guessing Tomb Kings vs. Brets), Old World Rulebook as well as 4-5 Plastic Boxes per faction of mostly old miniatures. This will be accompanied by made to order heroes/finecast stuff from GW and some new resins from FW.

    April: Two other faction battalion boxes, plus 4-5 kits per faction and associated made to order, etc......


    I don't really see that being that incredible to be honest. I mean the the launch weekend release will likely be smaller than the Space Marine wave they just launched and will require much less production/distribution. That Space Marine wave probably sold more kits than the entire Old World Range will in its entire first year.

    Considering GW has had years to make stock of the old kits they are rereleasing, are not releasing that many new ones, and that TOW will likely be a pretty niche game and not require a massive volume of kits to be produced like 40k - I just don't see why there is any reason they won't be able to get it done. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599701.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599701.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I just want to play my old armies in a rule set that's not 8th and I want to get some old Empire & Bret plastics, plus a completely new model here and there. If they throw me a bone and rerelease Forsaken, I will be over the moon.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599706.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599706.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599707.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599707.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     triplegrim wrote:
    GW is now telling us that the game will launch within a few months in early 2024, and thats pretty much word of god and theres not much need to question it.


    ???.

    I dont know where reality ends and satire begins anymore.

    I believe, from my 3 decades of consumer experience, that such a launch, if it happens, will be very limited compared to even just a pdf Ravening horde/6th MRB reprint and old sets for the 9 factions they have promised. From what they've shown, it seems doubtfull there can by a full release in a few months. Sorry, but thats just from what we've been shown and told.

    Time will show.


    Earlier when you said congregation, I thought it was funny. I did not think it would be unironically proven true in the same few hours.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599708.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599708.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
    Games Workshop and Forgeworld are both notorious for the shoddy quality of their resin.


    Maybe in large kits where there's potential for warping. I've got more Forgeworld resin than a sensible person should have and I don't think I've ever had a problem with any of them.

    Finecast always had bubbles in various places which needed fixing, but thankfully that's not what we're getting.

    The things like the Treb and Unicorn do have the potential to be priced insanely, but the single normal characters should hopefully be ok. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599711.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599711.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW has to do is publish the main rulebook, pump out a few limited release army boxes and offer a lot of old stuff over direct only/made to order. The game may not be complete, with every model / army playable out of the gate, but there'll be a game out there.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599718.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599718.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Warhammer Community wrote:These regiments and other future regiments are returning in boxes that contain enough plastic miniatures... to build a unit of 32 archers, complete with a command group and Defensive Stakes. So dreams of creating massive armies of ranked-up troops will be well within your grasp.


    I wonder if this points the way to a game scaled to very large units like 8th? It almost certainly points to paying a premium GW tag for old kits, justification being that there are quite a few more than the 10 in a kit you'd get in other ranges.

    Chuffed with the Brettonian kits they have shown off though, the new plastics look superb and the footknights are up there with the pick of the bunch in today's reveals as far as I'm concerned (The Dragon and Kurnoth were amazing as well).

    Looking forward to see what they've done with Tomb Kings next, I've been pleasantly surprised so far. (bar was set quite low to be fair hehe)
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599722.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599722.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Shakalooloo wrote:
    Why are people dubious over an early 2024 release? All GW has to do is publish the main rulebook, pump out a few limited release army boxes and offer a lot of old stuff over direct only/made to order. The game may not be complete, with every model / army playable out of the gate, but there'll be a game out there.


    I think its because there's this optimistic idea GW are going to release this with all the factions. Which as you suggest, won't happen.
    But then GW have been loathe to put out rules without models for ages - so it feels like a strange sort of stuation.

    My expectation for the release would be something like:

    Early 2024: Rules and "Not-A-Starter Box".
    A month, probably 2 later: Brets.
    A month or two after that: TKs.
    Two or three months later, next faction.

    I think it could take 18 months to 2 years for all the "core factions" or whatever to be sort of available to buy. Maybe that's too slow. But I can't see them pushing 40-50 kits out (old or new) in a say six months. It would use up too much bandwidth unless they have nothing else across their other games.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599724.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599724.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     frankelee wrote:
    I guess it probably shouldn't be surprising the Kislev ice guard might be scrapped. It was very not-Warhammer-Fantasy-Battles.


    They weren't something pulled out of nowhere that was a sudden change for how Kislev was depicted.

    Ice witches wielding magical frost weapons and having an import place in Kislev society is perfectly fitting with their lore. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599727.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599727.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    GW is now telling us that the game will launch within a few months in early 2024, and thats pretty much word of god and theres not much need to question it.


    Far be it from us to question the word of our God, Games Workshop Group PLC (Subhanahu wa ta’ala), but they do push back release dates. That is a thing that happens.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599734.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599734.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
     Shadow Walker wrote:
    New foot knights are the star of this show for me.


    I'm looking forward to a certain section of people lose their over there being women foot knights.


    There's very little visual difference between a man and a woman of the same height in most armors. The padding underneath goes a long way toward hiding feminine curves. Unless it's specifically configured to highlight her (ahem) feminine assets or she takes off her helmet, even a pretty busty woman in a breastplate won't be all that obvious.

    Consider Eowyn in the LOTR movies. Yes, we know it's her, we recognize her face. But is she not OBVIOUSLY a woman until she takes off her helmet.

    So my army features several female knights, even if you can't tell which ones they are, and you can't prove otherwise.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599736.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599736.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
    Games Workshop and Forgeworld are both notorious for the shoddy quality of their resin.


    Forgeworld will send you replacements if the quality is bad though. You just need to send pics and proof that you bought it from them, and they'll likely send you the full model again (or at least the part) and let you keep the defect sculpt. It's not like you're stuck with a shoddy model and can't do anything about it.

    I'm more concerned about the foot knight kit. It could be that the boxset will have multiple identical kits, but I can't help but notice that two of the knights have the same helmets (the bull heads). And the knight with the standard has the same body as the knight on the back right. I hope the kit has ten unique bodies, not five.

    Spoiler:
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599749.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599749.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Vulcan wrote:
     Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
     Shadow Walker wrote:
    New foot knights are the star of this show for me.


    I'm looking forward to a certain section of people lose their over there being women foot knights.


    There's very little visual difference between a man and a woman of the same height in most armors. The padding underneath goes a long way toward hiding feminine curves. Unless it's specifically configured to highlight her (ahem) feminine assets or she takes off her helmet, even a pretty busty woman in a breastplate won't be all that obvious.

    Consider Eowyn in the LOTR movies. Yes, we know it's her, we recognize her face. But is she not OBVIOUSLY a woman until she takes off her helmet.

    So my army features several female knights, even if you can't tell which ones they are, and you can't prove otherwise.


    Most of the Riders in the movie were women! It was the only way to get enough skilled horse riders. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599759.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599759.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Shakalooloo wrote:
    Why are people dubious over an early 2024 release?

    It is trolling, nothing more.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599825.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599825.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
     frankelee wrote:
    I guess it probably shouldn't be surprising the Kislev ice guard might be scrapped. It was very not-Warhammer-Fantasy-Battles.


    They weren't something pulled out of nowhere that was a sudden change for how Kislev was depicted.

    Ice witches wielding magical frost weapons and having an import place in Kislev society is perfectly fitting with their lore.


    Sorry guise, but I don't know much about the retcon lore post 6th edition. It very well can be that it fit WFB in 2015, or WFB in 2024, either way it's a very late and significant tonal change from what the game was. And I remember a lot of people on the internet saying it came across as kind of weird and not very Warhammer. And of course those types of Kislev troops weren't models at any point right up through the End Times. But if GeeDubs is hoping to sell the game to middle aged guys with too much disposable income then it still wouldn't surprise me if they at least didn't prioritize stuff that those of us who played in the 90s and 2000s don't recognize as being legitimately within the tone and feel of the setting.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599830.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599830.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     GaroRobe wrote:
    Forgeworld will send you replacements if the quality is bad though. You just need to send pics and proof that you bought it from them, and they'll likely send you the full model again (or at least the part) and let you keep the defect sculpt. It's not like you're stuck with a shoddy model and can't do anything about it.


    For the most part that's true, I did have one model that was crap and emailed FW about it and they said they had run out of stock, so my only option was to return the one I had for a refund or just deal with the miscast.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599834.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599834.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     infinite_array wrote:


    Most of the Riders in the movie were women! It was the only way to get enough skilled horse riders.


    It's the beards.

    Or is that just dwarves?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599836.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599836.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Vorian wrote:
    What's the issue with some characters being resin?

    They aren't a million miles off the price of the plastic ones


    There's quite a few reasons. Not liking resin is one. Modern FW models are made from 3D printed masters and after getting a couple of models with 3D printer lines on them, my desire to buy more FW has significantly diminished. For people who don't like in the UK and US, Forge World can take fecking ages to deliver. I think my last FW order was something like 4 weeks delivery time. While bubbles and miscasts aren't as common as they were with Finecast, they're still a thing. Also some people like to buy from independent stores, and FW is direct only.

    Convincing someone to get into a game when a portion of the range is FW only is far more difficult than if it's not.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599839.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599839.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     GaroRobe wrote:
     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
    Games Workshop and Forgeworld are both notorious for the shoddy quality of their resin.


    Forgeworld will send you replacements if the quality is bad though. You just need to send pics and proof that you bought it from them, and they'll likely send you the full model again (or at least the part) and let you keep the defect sculpt. It's not like you're stuck with a shoddy model and can't do anything about it.

    I'm more concerned about the foot knight kit. It could be that the boxset will have multiple identical kits, but I can't help but notice that two of the knights have the same helmets (the bull heads). And the knight with the standard has the same body as the knight on the back right. I hope the kit has ten unique bodies, not five.

    Spoiler:


    The same body is doubled up in the sword armed unit too, and trying to peer through the nest of helmet decorations and weapons, I think I can see repeated details further back in the unit as well. Looks like 5 bodies. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599845.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599845.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599848.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599848.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599851.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599851.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599859.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599859.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Lord Damocles wrote:
    Is that supposed to be a woman? The only thing suggesting that to my eyes is the lack of a handlebar moustache. I assumed that it was just a younger male.


    Yes, it's a female head. I'll grant you it can be a little hard to tell because she's not wearing an obvious fake mustache.

    In better days she would have just worn a chain bikini. All of the armor protection with none of the ambiguity. Good times, but sadly long gone.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599862.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599862.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors


    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599868.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599868.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599874.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599874.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    Well those new plastics are actually fantastic. Now I'm actually excited to see what they do for my beloved Tomb Kings.


    You get 2 kits, one will be a character. Choose wisely.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599881.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599881.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Dudeface wrote:
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    Well those new plastics are actually fantastic. Now I'm actually excited to see what they do for my beloved Tomb Kings.


    You get 2 kits, one will be a character. Choose wisely.


    Used to have whole units of mummies, back in the day. Given that we're getting foot knights for Bretonnia, maybe it's time for a plastic regiment of elite mummy infantry?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599883.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599883.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    At a pinch, reclassify Tomb Guard as core and do mummies for elite]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599886.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599886.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Shakalooloo wrote:
    Dudeface wrote:
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    Well those new plastics are actually fantastic. Now I'm actually excited to see what they do for my beloved Tomb Kings.


    You get 2 kits, one will be a character. Choose wisely.


    Used to have whole units of mummies, back in the day. Given that we're getting foot knights for Bretonnia, maybe it's time for a plastic regiment of elite mummy infantry?


    I for one can't wait to have a new plastic elite regiment for that nostalgic feeling of having to buy sucky old Core models to play the modern models. It will be good to see for GW to be respectful of the army's defining feature!

    Anyway, mummies are a bit of tough one. They're from a time when undead were the classic horror show lineup, minus the wolfman. Functionally Tomb Guard has taken over the mummified elite troops slot, even if the bandages have been very conservatively applied on the metal models and a bit less so on the plastic replacements. They're still pretty bare in that regard and don't live up to the artwork in the 6th ed army book. But considering that Tomb Guard is a new plastic kit, I don't think the same unit with more bandages is likely if we get an equivalent number of new kits to Bretonnians.

    I'm not really sure what to expect, to be honest.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599887.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599887.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I am not happy with the Foot Knight arms and weapons though. Some of the helms look to AoS to me as well.

    Ah well, head and weapon swaps are easy.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599890.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599890.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors

    So, the article said the stuff they show there is the full lineup for Bretonnia.
    That leave out units like mounted yeoman, grail knighs and my favourite -the questing knights, as well as the grail reliqua.
    I suppose old metal/finecast stuff might get a "made to order" slot.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599892.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599892.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Breotan wrote:
    So, the crappy metal kits are being re-released in resin. Sigh... at this point I don't even know why I dared to hope.



    Hope IS the first step on the road to disappointment.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599894.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599894.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Alongside these new and returning kits which form the bulk (or entirety) of your force, there will also be a selection of returning metal heroes and specialist units that will be available to order direct from games-workshop.com.


    Presumably these will include Grail/Errant/questing knights at least

    The Treb is being resin-ed because it's a nightmare to assemble in metal. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599895.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599895.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     frankelee wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
     frankelee wrote:
    I guess it probably shouldn't be surprising the Kislev ice guard might be scrapped. It was very not-Warhammer-Fantasy-Battles.


    They weren't something pulled out of nowhere that was a sudden change for how Kislev was depicted.

    Ice witches wielding magical frost weapons and having an import place in Kislev society is perfectly fitting with their lore.


    Sorry guise, but I don't know much about the retcon lore post 6th edition. It very well can be that it fit WFB in 2015, or WFB in 2024, either way it's a very late and significant tonal change from what the game was. And I remember a lot of people on the internet saying it came across as kind of weird and not very Warhammer. And of course those types of Kislev troops weren't models at any point right up through the End Times. But if GeeDubs is hoping to sell the game to middle aged guys with too much disposable income then it still wouldn't surprise me if they at least didn't prioritize stuff that those of us who played in the 90s and 2000s don't recognize as being legitimately within the tone and feel of the setting.


    No - this is fitting with lore from the very beginning - mostly initially established by 1st Edition and 2nd WFRP back in the period you are talking about or earlier.

    So yes it is perfectly within the setting - always has been.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Souleater wrote:
    The jawline of the other models is much squarer, while her features are smaller/finer than those of her compatriots.



    I am not aware they said that figure was female - was it on the stream? I would think you can use it as either a woman or a male with somwhat femine features - after all it will make no difference on the tabletop.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599896.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599896.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Geifer wrote:
    Anyway, mummies are a bit of tough one. They're from a time when undead were the classic horror show lineup, minus the wolfman. Functionally Tomb Guard has taken over the mummified elite troops slot,


    They could slide them in as a not-quite-heroes unit above Tomb Guard, similar to where Putrid Blightkings sit in the WoC stat hierarchy,

    If I had to choose anything to be upgraded it would be the skeleton horses, they are probably my least favourite thing to clean and assemble.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599903.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599903.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Infantry sprue with all relevant weapons

    Horse sprue including rider legs - can be boxed with infantry to make cavalry, can be boxed with chariots to keep new horses consistent ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599907.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599907.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    2 modest sprues could be enough to refresh the range

    Infantry sprue with all relevant weapons

    Horse sprue including rider legs - can be boxed with infantry to make cavalry, can be boxed with chariots to keep new horses consistent


    That would be more than brets got already, the only chance is if they don't treat them equally.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599909.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599909.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Baragash wrote:
     Geifer wrote:
    Anyway, mummies are a bit of tough one. They're from a time when undead were the classic horror show lineup, minus the wolfman. Functionally Tomb Guard has taken over the mummified elite troops slot,


    They could slide them in as a not-quite-heroes unit above Tomb Guard, similar to where Putrid Blightkings sit in the WoC stat hierarchy,


    I guess. Seems like we already have Ushabti that provide something similar in game terms and snake surfers for more elite or higher status Tomb Guard in the fluff.

    Now, all of this with the caveat that I'm the last one to complain about new Tomb Kings models whatever shape they take, and as quite a fan of mummies, too, but I'm not sure there is much sense in this particular addition and hope GW sees it the same way and prioritizes something more useful if we have to put up with such a limited number of new plastic models.

    Dudeface wrote:
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    2 modest sprues could be enough to refresh the range

    Infantry sprue with all relevant weapons

    Horse sprue including rider legs - can be boxed with infantry to make cavalry, can be boxed with chariots to keep new horses consistent


    That would be more than brets got already, the only chance is if they don't treat them equally.


    I would totally accept such disparity if it means new plastic skeletons. Bretonnians can go suck it. No offense. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599911.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599911.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    If they don't replace the ancient skellies (cavalry included) it's gonna be dead on arrival


    Maybe I'm alone in this, but I'm disappointed they didn't replace the Men at Arms, Bowmen and Knights of the Realm kit. They're almost 20 years old and come from the period when GW models had horrible proportions. I say that as someone who bought a whole bunch of them back when they first released.

    That said, I'm also not a huge fan of the new foot knights, they're just way too over detailed for Knights of the Realm for my liking. The level of detail is more along the lines of Questing if not Grail Knights.

    I guess in the end I would have preferred a return to the 5th edition style of Bretonnians, back when the Perry twins made some really awesome looking metals.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599923.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599923.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    For the foot knights, I just think they need a different paint job, because looking at them more in detail, they don't really have anything fancy going on except for the helmet and the champion.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599926.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599926.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Wardancers are an obvious choice, but the metal ones have already been shown in an article so I'm not sure about that.

    My dream option would be a lord on a forest dragon, but that seems much more like a Forgeworld project.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599930.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599930.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Dudeface wrote:
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    2 modest sprues could be enough to refresh the range

    Infantry sprue with all relevant weapons

    Horse sprue including rider legs - can be boxed with infantry to make cavalry, can be boxed with chariots to keep new horses consistent


    That would be more than brets got already, the only chance is if they don't treat them equally.


    The rational move would be to allocate resources based on need rather than equality. The peasant archers are a fine kit, the Bret’s men-at-arms kit is still great.

    Tomb king skeletons are awful.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599934.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599934.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Ignispacium wrote:
    I'm curious as to what the Wood Elves are going to get in terms of new plastic. Most of their line got an update shortly before WFB was ended.

    Wardancers are an obvious choice, but the metal ones have already been shown in an article so I'm not sure about that.

    My dream option would be a lord on a forest dragon, but that seems much more like a Forgeworld project.


    Aren't the Glade Guard absolutely ancient? With those horrible cloaks that feel tacked on rather than part of the model.

    I seem to recall painting up some Glade Guard and posting the pics on the official GW forum, so they must be pretty old ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599936.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599936.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I think Inquisitor Gideon’s was putting forward the idea that there will be some folks complaining about the historical inaccuracy of female knights (mounted or otherwise) in an army so closely inspired by the notably patriarchal medieval French.

    Apart from the flying horses, of course. Which they totally had. ?

    Hence the discussion about that model and whether or not it is meant to give off female warrior vibes without it looking like something out of mobile game Ad from Facebook.

    On the other hand, he could just trying to be start an argument about the IRL existence of medieval female knights. Does being knighted because you borrowed some mail and were dropping rocks off the city wall really count? Does Joan of Arc count if she was on the battle but didn’t kill anyone, or at least have a go? That sort of thing.

    In which case, Inquisitior Gideon is a bit of a cad and possibly bounder. I don’t know them, so will presume innocence. ?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599943.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599943.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    AllSeeingSkink wrote:
    Ignispacium wrote:
    I'm curious as to what the Wood Elves are going to get in terms of new plastic. Most of their line got an update shortly before WFB was ended.

    Wardancers are an obvious choice, but the metal ones have already been shown in an article so I'm not sure about that.

    My dream option would be a lord on a forest dragon, but that seems much more like a Forgeworld project.


    Aren't the Glade Guard absolutely ancient? With those horrible cloaks that feel tacked on rather than part of the model.

    I seem to recall painting up some Glade Guard and posting the pics on the official GW forum, so they must be pretty old


    Glade Guard need! an update!
    The Forrest dragon with the sisters is cool. If they update it they need to do it in the same spirit.
    Also, it was probably one of the only monsters that payed for itself at end of fantasy so well.
    Was a pain for basically anything if it made a flank charge.

    Wood elves are ok with glade guard update and some heroes honestly, Alter/Beast kindred would be cool.

    Also bows on all the elves other than the Alter Kindred, Don’t forget GW. The last book changed that for the first time in like 10+ years. It’s part of the faction. They ok Minis tho, so I forgive them.

    Dryads look old now, would be nice getting an update but being trees keeps them fine when painted up.
    The other stuff may just be out of the realm for this update, but glade guard updated is needed.
    There horrible miniatures, and I won’t buy them again.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599951.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599951.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    AllSeeingSkink wrote:
    Ignispacium wrote:
    I'm curious as to what the Wood Elves are going to get in terms of new plastic. Most of their line got an update shortly before WFB was ended.

    Wardancers are an obvious choice, but the metal ones have already been shown in an article so I'm not sure about that.

    My dream option would be a lord on a forest dragon, but that seems much more like a Forgeworld project.


    Aren't the Glade Guard absolutely ancient? With those horrible cloaks that feel tacked on rather than part of the model.

    I seem to recall painting up some Glade Guard and posting the pics on the official GW forum, so they must be pretty old


    Yeap, they are pretty ancient by todays standards.

    I know what you mean about the WE cloaks. I'm currently building a few knights of the white wolf and they are the same, the cloaks just kind of tack on to the model. The plastic kits was obviously once the cheapest way to build huge armies, but the old metals are lovely sculpts in comparison. In fact, I'm having to almost carve detail back into the knights when cleaning up the horrendous mould lines.

    Thats going to be the hardest sell for GW in this case. Its going to be very, very noticeable between the quality of the kits. Those old brett knights are very plain and will have thick mould lines, where as the new foot knights have a lot of detail and if the newer AoS kits are anything to go by, almost mould line free.

    Sure, its a nice compromise by having the new parts fit the old models to allow us to convert the older models into something more modern looking. But they are going to be charging 2024 prices, for 20+ year old minis that also need a 2nd set of minis to bring inline with the new style of models.

    You think that GW would have spent more money in bringing the entire game up to modern standards before release.

    I'm still just going to treat this as the biggest MTO run on fantasy models they have done and use it as an excuse to stock up on things I haven't yet paid a fortune for. I really don't see how they can sell this as wargame made for more experienced gamers in the modern market. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599953.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599953.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors HH prices.

    "These regiments and other future regiments are returning in boxes that contain enough plastic miniatures to make a full regiment, not just a rank or two. With the Peasant Bowmen box, you’ll be able to build a unit of 32 archers, complete with a command group and Defensive Stakes. So dreams of creating massive armies of ranked-up troops will be well within your grasp."]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599962.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599962.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Olthannon wrote:
    I mean the good news is that we will get big boxes of infantry. Presumably about the same as HH prices.

    "These regiments and other future regiments are returning in boxes that contain enough plastic miniatures to make a full regiment, not just a rank or two. With the Peasant Bowmen box, you’ll be able to build a unit of 32 archers, complete with a command group and Defensive Stakes. So dreams of creating massive armies of ranked-up troops will be well within your grasp."


    Its a strange choice, seeing as they have shown units of 18 but selling in 32s. I can see the return of unit fillers being a popular money saving tactic again this edition.

    If they are the same cost of the HH sets (or less) then that wouldn't be so bad.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599968.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599968.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     frankelee wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
     frankelee wrote:
    I guess it probably shouldn't be surprising the Kislev ice guard might be scrapped. It was very not-Warhammer-Fantasy-Battles.


    They weren't something pulled out of nowhere that was a sudden change for how Kislev was depicted.

    Ice witches wielding magical frost weapons and having an import place in Kislev society is perfectly fitting with their lore.


    Sorry guise, but I don't know much about the retcon lore post 6th edition. It very well can be that it fit WFB in 2015, or WFB in 2024, either way it's a very late and significant tonal change from what the game was. And I remember a lot of people on the internet saying it came across as kind of weird and not very Warhammer. And of course those types of Kislev troops weren't models at any point right up through the End Times. But if GeeDubs is hoping to sell the game to middle aged guys with too much disposable income then it still wouldn't surprise me if they at least didn't prioritize stuff that those of us who played in the 90s and 2000s don't recognize as being legitimately within the tone and feel of the setting.


    No, it absolutely is not.

    4th edition Warhammer Armies: The empire, released in 1993 (...or 1996? Found both dates), has Kislev included but is very brief. They are depicted as more of a grounded human faction at this stage, but it's very, very brief; it basically amounts to a small amount of lore of pretty much "There's a place called Kislev" and 3-4 units. Winged Lancers, Katarin etc. Mentions Kislev is ruled by warrior-sorcerers with their magic based on the land itself and Frost/ice focused. Magic Ice Hawks, Ice Bridge that can carry units, Fearfrost as a magic frost sword etc. Art of Boris Usra riding a bear is shown, albeit it seems he isn't actually talked about at all so appears to not be a character...just a guy riding a bear. Also unclear if this is meant to be the same as Boris Ursus a few years later.

    The 1996 Citadel Journal list had fantastical elements, including Bear mounts for heroes, Bear Cavalry, packs of bears and Baba Yaga. Common later lore things like their bear god, bears being sacred etc are mentioned here as similar to later lore but i'm unsure what was and wasn't already established in more "official" sources before this article, so while it's debatable as to how canonical the stuff here is (Citadel Journal is an official publication, but people could submit stuff), some of the things included here did also appear in definitely more official sources - I'm just unsure when specifically some of that first appeared and what is and isn't already established for them by the time this article was written.

    Their Warmaster army list in 2002, had packs of tamed bears and bear mounts and a spell to transform into a giant bear (and mentions they build temples in which they keep pits full of bears to send out to war). That old art of Boris Ursa on a bear appears again.

    The Ambassador series, Written by Graham Mcneill in 2003/2004, supposedly had those mystical fantasy elements included - Katarina apparently summons spirits of Kislev warriors in bodies of ice, for example. Bokha palace also has parts entire sections made of ice.

    Their 6th edition army in 2003 did not have much in the way of that side of things, mostly just Boris Ursus as the most out-there in terms of units, albeit the book did depict conversions of both a hero on giant bear and bear cavalry. Their connection to various spirits are mentioned but its unclear as to if they book considers them as real or not. It mentions the religion involving bears with a God of Bears who takes the form of a bear - so despite the lack of bear units, bears are still said to be a very important thing to Kislev overall. Magical lore for different Gods are mentioned. The palace having sections made of ice are mentioned by the book too.

    The Warhammer RPG "Realm of the Ice Queen" expansion released in 2007 once again follows the fantasy Kislev side and is the most comprehensive depiction of Kislev out of the lot - because its an RPG there's a lot of stuff. The various spirits mentioned previously are defined more specifically, there's magical creatures like Frostfiends and Firebirds, Hag Witches (like Baba Yaga was) are there, the map of the city of Kislev shows Bokha palace with the ice structure parts, Katarina has the enchanted Ice Palace, it details the importance of the Ice Witches, all the ice magic like ice weapons, the other cults/gods appear again with magic for them etc.


    A unit of Ice Witches wielding magical weapons is perfectly in line with how Kislev lore already was. Those specific elements (Magical Frost Witches with Magical Ice weapons) were definitely already a thing in 2007 at the very least and potentially before (as I didn't do a huge indepth look into it), as the foundations were definitely there before then.

    You being unaware of Kislev lore does not make it a retcon.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599974.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599974.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    Now I'm actually excited to see what they do for my beloved Tomb Kings.


    I'm guessing the mysterious character that we've been hearing rumors about, and maybe the missing Hierotitan model.

    Unlike Bretonia, the Tomb Kings got an 8th Edition update. And I'm guessing that the new Bret models are stuff that was more or less "just waiting for a new Army Book release" to go out on sale.

    I imagine that the core skeletons will be replaced eventually (and finally get some proper khopeshes), but I'm guessing that they're still a ways off.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599986.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599986.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mr Morden wrote:
     frankelee wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
     frankelee wrote:
    I guess it probably shouldn't be surprising the Kislev ice guard might be scrapped. It was very not-Warhammer-Fantasy-Battles.


    They weren't something pulled out of nowhere that was a sudden change for how Kislev was depicted.

    Ice witches wielding magical frost weapons and having an import place in Kislev society is perfectly fitting with their lore.


    Sorry guise, but I don't know much about the retcon lore post 6th edition. It very well can be that it fit WFB in 2015, or WFB in 2024, either way it's a very late and significant tonal change from what the game was. And I remember a lot of people on the internet saying it came across as kind of weird and not very Warhammer. And of course those types of Kislev troops weren't models at any point right up through the End Times. But if GeeDubs is hoping to sell the game to middle aged guys with too much disposable income then it still wouldn't surprise me if they at least didn't prioritize stuff that those of us who played in the 90s and 2000s don't recognize as being legitimately within the tone and feel of the setting.


    No - this is fitting with lore from the very beginning - mostly initially established by 1st Edition and 2nd WFRP back in the period you are talking about or earlier.

    So yes it is perfectly within the setting - always has been.


    I have a copy of all the WFRP 1st and 2nd edition books, go ahead a cite where an Amazonian guard of magic ice weapon using warrioresses were a standing force in the Kislev army, lol. It's fine if you like it, it's very odd and outside typical Warhammer lore.

     Mentlegen324 wrote:
     frankelee wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
     frankelee wrote:
    I guess it probably shouldn't be surprising the Kislev ice guard might be scrapped. It was very not-Warhammer-Fantasy-Battles.


    They weren't something pulled out of nowhere that was a sudden change for how Kislev was depicted.

    Ice witches wielding magical frost weapons and having an import place in Kislev society is perfectly fitting with their lore.


    Sorry guise, but I don't know much about the retcon lore post 6th edition. It very well can be that it fit WFB in 2015, or WFB in 2024, either way it's a very late and significant tonal change from what the game was. And I remember a lot of people on the internet saying it came across as kind of weird and not very Warhammer. And of course those types of Kislev troops weren't models at any point right up through the End Times. But if GeeDubs is hoping to sell the game to middle aged guys with too much disposable income then it still wouldn't surprise me if they at least didn't prioritize stuff that those of us who played in the 90s and 2000s don't recognize as being legitimately within the tone and feel of the setting.


    No, it absolutely is not.

    4th edition Warhammer Armies: The empire, released in 1993 (...or 1996? Found both dates), has Kislev included but is very brief. They are depicted as more of a grounded human faction at this stage, but it's very, very brief; it basically amounts to a small amount of lore of pretty much "There's a place called Kislev" and 3-4 units. Winged Lancers, Katarin etc. Mentions Kislev is ruled by warrior-sorcerers with their magic based on the land itself and Frost/ice focused. Magic Ice Hawks, Ice Bridge that can carry units, Fearfrost as a magic frost sword etc. Art of Boris Usra riding a bear is shown, albeit it seems he isn't actually talked about at all so appears to not be a character...just a guy riding a bear. Also unclear if this is meant to be the same as Boris Ursus a few years later.

    The 1996 Citadel Journal list had fantastical elements, including Bear mounts for heroes, Bear Cavalry, packs of bears and Baba Yaga. Common later lore things like their bear god, bears being sacred etc are mentioned here as similar to later lore but i'm unsure what was and wasn't already established in more "official" sources before this article, so while it's debatable as to how canonical the stuff here is (Citadel Journal is an official publication, but people could submit stuff), some of the things included here did also appear in definitely more official sources - I'm just unsure when specifically some of that first appeared and what is and isn't already established for them by the time this article was written.

    Their Warmaster army list in 2002, had packs of tamed bears and bear mounts and a spell to transform into a giant bear (and mentions they build temples in which they keep pits full of bears to send out to war). That old art of Boris Ursa on a bear appears again.

    The Ambassador series, Written by Graham Mcneill in 2003/2004, supposedly had those mystical fantasy elements included - Katarina apparently summons spirits of Kislev warriors in bodies of ice, for example. Bokha palace also has parts entire sections made of ice.

    Their 6th edition army in 2003 did not have much in the way of that side of things, mostly just Boris Ursus as the most out-there in terms of units, albeit the book did depict conversions of both a hero on giant bear and bear cavalry. Their connection to various spirits are mentioned but its unclear as to if they book considers them as real or not. It mentions the religion involving bears with a God of Bears who takes the form of a bear - so despite the lack of bear units, bears are still said to be a very important thing to Kislev overall. Magical lore for different Gods are mentioned. The palace having sections made of ice are mentioned by the book too.

    The Warhammer RPG "Realm of the Ice Queen" expansion released in 2007 once again follows the fantasy Kislev side and is the most comprehensive depiction of Kislev out of the lot - because its an RPG there's a lot of stuff. The various spirits mentioned previously are defined more specifically, there's magical creatures like Frostfiends and Firebirds, Hag Witches (like Baba Yaga was) are there, the map of the city of Kislev shows Bokha palace with the ice structure parts, Katarina has the enchanted Ice Palace, it details the importance of the Ice Witches, all the ice magic like ice weapons, the other cults/gods appear again with magic for them etc.


    A unit of Ice Witches wielding magical weapons is perfectly in line with how Kislev lore already was. Those specific elements (Magical Frost Witches with Magical Ice weapons) were definitely already a thing in 2007 at the very least and potentially before (as I didn't do a huge indepth look into it), as the foundations were definitely there before then.

    You being unaware of Kislev lore does not make it a retcon.



    I appreciate the extensive look at the material, but again none of it references an Amazonian guard who uses magic ice weapons and wears armor that looks very reminiscent of Warcraft. If someone who knew nothing about Warhammer lore read your description over they'd get a very inaccurate image of what classic Warhammer Fantasy was because it's missing the fact that 95% of it is a more grounded mix of historical and Tolkien fantasy. Sure Kislev has bear riders. Didn't say they shouldn't. Sure their sorceresses can use ice magic and it can have some fun spell descriptions involving ice. It also can blow them up on a (not especially uncommon) poor magic roll. That's all fine, and it's also not at all what was being discussed. Magic is uncommon and dangerous, Warcraft armor hasn't made it to the Old World yet.

    But again, if anybody wants to cite the page where we all can read about the Kislev ice-weapon woman guard in WFRP books or WFB army books, nobody is stopping them. It seems more that you all just like the designs and are trying to over-extend that personal opinion into something more concrete, which you have yet to cite any justification for, so that people can't disagree with you. But you're failing because of course nothing I said was factually incorrect, rather you just aren't happy to hear it. Which is fine.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599997.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11599997.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     frankelee wrote:
     Mr Morden wrote:
     frankelee wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
     frankelee wrote:
    I guess it probably shouldn't be surprising the Kislev ice guard might be scrapped. It was very not-Warhammer-Fantasy-Battles.


    They weren't something pulled out of nowhere that was a sudden change for how Kislev was depicted.

    Ice witches wielding magical frost weapons and having an import place in Kislev society is perfectly fitting with their lore.


    Sorry guise, but I don't know much about the retcon lore post 6th edition. It very well can be that it fit WFB in 2015, or WFB in 2024, either way it's a very late and significant tonal change from what the game was. And I remember a lot of people on the internet saying it came across as kind of weird and not very Warhammer. And of course those types of Kislev troops weren't models at any point right up through the End Times. But if GeeDubs is hoping to sell the game to middle aged guys with too much disposable income then it still wouldn't surprise me if they at least didn't prioritize stuff that those of us who played in the 90s and 2000s don't recognize as being legitimately within the tone and feel of the setting.


    No - this is fitting with lore from the very beginning - mostly initially established by 1st Edition and 2nd WFRP back in the period you are talking about or earlier.

    So yes it is perfectly within the setting - always has been.


    I have a copy of all the WFRP 1st and 2nd edition books, go ahead a cite where an Amazonian guard of magic ice weapon using warrioresses were a standing force in the Kislev army, lol. It's fine if you like it, it's very odd and outside typical Warhammer lore.

     Mentlegen324 wrote:
     frankelee wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
     frankelee wrote:
    I guess it probably shouldn't be surprising the Kislev ice guard might be scrapped. It was very not-Warhammer-Fantasy-Battles.


    They weren't something pulled out of nowhere that was a sudden change for how Kislev was depicted.

    Ice witches wielding magical frost weapons and having an import place in Kislev society is perfectly fitting with their lore.


    Sorry guise, but I don't know much about the retcon lore post 6th edition. It very well can be that it fit WFB in 2015, or WFB in 2024, either way it's a very late and significant tonal change from what the game was. And I remember a lot of people on the internet saying it came across as kind of weird and not very Warhammer. And of course those types of Kislev troops weren't models at any point right up through the End Times. But if GeeDubs is hoping to sell the game to middle aged guys with too much disposable income then it still wouldn't surprise me if they at least didn't prioritize stuff that those of us who played in the 90s and 2000s don't recognize as being legitimately within the tone and feel of the setting.


    No, it absolutely is not.

    4th edition Warhammer Armies: The empire, released in 1993 (...or 1996? Found both dates), has Kislev included but is very brief. They are depicted as more of a grounded human faction at this stage, but it's very, very brief; it basically amounts to a small amount of lore of pretty much "There's a place called Kislev" and 3-4 units. Winged Lancers, Katarin etc. Mentions Kislev is ruled by warrior-sorcerers with their magic based on the land itself and Frost/ice focused. Magic Ice Hawks, Ice Bridge that can carry units, Fearfrost as a magic frost sword etc. Art of Boris Usra riding a bear is shown, albeit it seems he isn't actually talked about at all so appears to not be a character...just a guy riding a bear. Also unclear if this is meant to be the same as Boris Ursus a few years later.

    The 1996 Citadel Journal list had fantastical elements, including Bear mounts for heroes, Bear Cavalry, packs of bears and Baba Yaga. Common later lore things like their bear god, bears being sacred etc are mentioned here as similar to later lore but i'm unsure what was and wasn't already established in more "official" sources before this article, so while it's debatable as to how canonical the stuff here is (Citadel Journal is an official publication, but people could submit stuff), some of the things included here did also appear in definitely more official sources - I'm just unsure when specifically some of that first appeared and what is and isn't already established for them by the time this article was written.

    Their Warmaster army list in 2002, had packs of tamed bears and bear mounts and a spell to transform into a giant bear (and mentions they build temples in which they keep pits full of bears to send out to war). That old art of Boris Ursa on a bear appears again.

    The Ambassador series, Written by Graham Mcneill in 2003/2004, supposedly had those mystical fantasy elements included - Katarina apparently summons spirits of Kislev warriors in bodies of ice, for example. Bokha palace also has parts entire sections made of ice.

    Their 6th edition army in 2003 did not have much in the way of that side of things, mostly just Boris Ursus as the most out-there in terms of units, albeit the book did depict conversions of both a hero on giant bear and bear cavalry. Their connection to various spirits are mentioned but its unclear as to if they book considers them as real or not. It mentions the religion involving bears with a God of Bears who takes the form of a bear - so despite the lack of bear units, bears are still said to be a very important thing to Kislev overall. Magical lore for different Gods are mentioned. The palace having sections made of ice are mentioned by the book too.

    The Warhammer RPG "Realm of the Ice Queen" expansion released in 2007 once again follows the fantasy Kislev side and is the most comprehensive depiction of Kislev out of the lot - because its an RPG there's a lot of stuff. The various spirits mentioned previously are defined more specifically, there's magical creatures like Frostfiends and Firebirds, Hag Witches (like Baba Yaga was) are there, the map of the city of Kislev shows Bokha palace with the ice structure parts, Katarina has the enchanted Ice Palace, it details the importance of the Ice Witches, all the ice magic like ice weapons, the other cults/gods appear again with magic for them etc.


    A unit of Ice Witches wielding magical weapons is perfectly in line with how Kislev lore already was. Those specific elements (Magical Frost Witches with Magical Ice weapons) were definitely already a thing in 2007 at the very least and potentially before (as I didn't do a huge indepth look into it), as the foundations were definitely there before then.

    You being unaware of Kislev lore does not make it a retcon.



    I appreciate the extensive look at the material, but again none of it references an Amazonian guard who uses magic ice weapons and wears armor that looks very reminiscent of Warcraft. If someone who knew nothing about Warhammer lore read your description over they'd get a very inaccurate image of what classic Warhammer Fantasy was because it's missing the fact that 95% of it is a more grounded mix of historical and Tolkien fantasy. Sure Kislev has bear riders. Didn't say they shouldn't. Sure their sorceresses can use ice magic and it can have some fun spell descriptions involving ice. It also can blow them up on a (not especially uncommon) poor magic roll. That's all fine, and it's also not at all what was being discussed. Magic is uncommon and dangerous, Warcraft armor hasn't made it to the Old World yet.


    It's odd that you go from "It's not in the lore, it's a retcon!" to that complaint instead once you were shown to be wrong about the idea not fitting in with kislev lore.

    She's wearing a slightly elaborate set of Siberian/Steppe themed armour (or wherever Kislev is inspired from specifically) with a bit of extra decoration because she's meant to be a fairly high status elite warrior. Nothing about it that come across as "Warcraft" to me in a way that is much more egregious than how some Kislev units had been shown before designs.

    Like just look at the guy on the front of the RPG:
    Spoiler:



    Or Boris Ursus
    Spoiler:



    Boris Ursa's miniature

    https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammerfb/images/0/02/-Kislev-_Tzar_Boris.png/revision/latest?cb=20210205114201

    Katarina in 5th edition

    http://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Katarin_Bokha?file=KatarinTheIceQueen.jpg

    Absolutely not grounded overall, they have quite significant elements of outlandish fantasy design.


    But again, if anybody wants to cite the page where we all can read about the Kislev ice-weapon woman guard in WFRP books or WFB army books, nobody is stopping them. It seems more that you all just like the designs and are trying to over-extend that personal opinion into something more concrete, which you have yet to cite any justification for, so that people can't disagree with you. But you're failing because of course nothing I said was factually incorrect, rather you just aren't happy to hear it. Which is fine.


    No one has claimed that there are "Kislev ice-weapon woman guard in WFRP books or WFB army books". That doesn't stop the elements that make up this unit having been present in Kislev lore even in the time period of the 90s/2000s you're on about.

    It seems more that you're just moving the goalposts just and using an absurd strawman argument so you can keep refusing to accept things because you don't like the designs and want to complain regardless.

    And like, you're talking about a setting that has all sorts of weird and magical fantasy elements. Griffons, Unicorns, Dragons, Ghosts, Pegasus, all manner of monsters, magical creatures and other nonsensical things. If that's what you think changes the tone of the setting then that implies that somehow you're oblivious to all that other stuff that already exists in WHFB. It doesn't do anything for the tone of Kislev when they already have Ice Witches who use Ice Weapons and have an important place in mainstream Kislev society, let alone the setting overall.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600011.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600011.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors Could you guys use spoiler tags for those posts please?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600012.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600012.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     frankelee wrote:
     Mr Morden wrote:
     frankelee wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
     frankelee wrote:
    I guess it probably shouldn't be surprising the Kislev ice guard might be scrapped. It was very not-Warhammer-Fantasy-Battles.


    They weren't something pulled out of nowhere that was a sudden change for how Kislev was depicted.

    Ice witches wielding magical frost weapons and having an import place in Kislev society is perfectly fitting with their lore.


    Sorry guise, but I don't know much about the retcon lore post 6th edition. It very well can be that it fit WFB in 2015, or WFB in 2024, either way it's a very late and significant tonal change from what the game was. And I remember a lot of people on the internet saying it came across as kind of weird and not very Warhammer. And of course those types of Kislev troops weren't models at any point right up through the End Times. But if GeeDubs is hoping to sell the game to middle aged guys with too much disposable income then it still wouldn't surprise me if they at least didn't prioritize stuff that those of us who played in the 90s and 2000s don't recognize as being legitimately within the tone and feel of the setting.


    No - this is fitting with lore from the very beginning - mostly initially established by 1st Edition and 2nd WFRP back in the period you are talking about or earlier.

    So yes it is perfectly within the setting - always has been.


    I have a copy of all the WFRP 1st and 2nd edition books, go ahead a cite where an Amazonian guard of magic ice weapon using warrioresses were a standing force in the Kislev army, lol. It's fine if you like it, it's very odd and outside typical Warhammer lore..


    I have them all as well - and as you well know thats not what I said - if you actualy go back and look at your books you will read how important Ice magic and Ice witches are.

    I appreciate the extensive look at the material, but again none of it references an Amazonian guard who uses magic ice weapons and wears armor that looks very reminiscent of Warcraft. If someone who knew nothing about Warhammer lore read your description over they'd get a very inaccurate image of what classic Warhammer Fantasy was because it's missing the fact that 95% of it is a more grounded mix of historical and Tolkien fantasy. Sure Kislev has bear riders. Didn't say they shouldn't. Sure their sorceresses can use ice magic and it can have some fun spell descriptions involving ice. It also can blow them up on a (not especially uncommon) poor magic roll. That's all fine, and it's also not at all what was being discussed. Magic is uncommon and dangerous, Warcraft armor hasn't made it to the Old World yet.

    But again, if anybody wants to cite the page where we all can read about the Kislev ice-weapon woman guard in WFRP books or WFB army books, nobody is stopping them. It seems more that you all just like the designs and are trying to over-extend that personal opinion into something more concrete, which you have yet to cite any justification for, so that people can't disagree with you. But you're failing because of course nothing I said was factually incorrect, rather you just aren't happy to hear it. Which is fine


    OK seriously? Warhammer is grounded - what complete nonsese - especially Fantasy battles - again actually look at the covers of your books - its armies and mages and dragons clashing in massively over the top battles - now i get YOU might want Warhammer to be about the Sewer Watch but Fantasy battle is absolutely not.

    There are plenty of examples shown above by other for your "Cite me" obession- just read the actual lore mate.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600013.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600013.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors WHFB was based in Tolkien fantasy is automatically wrong. The elements borrowed from Moorcock are far more obvious and important to the setting, and Moorcock was the anti-Tolkien. Moorcockian fantasy is also way way way more over the top and Kislev fits right in with what's already there.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600023.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600023.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    ImAGeek wrote:
    I'm still just going to treat this as the biggest MTO run on fantasy models they have done and use it as an excuse to stock up on things I haven't yet paid a fortune for. I really don't see how they can sell this as wargame made for more experienced gamers in the modern market.


    You and me both.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600024.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600024.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mentlegen324 wrote:


    It's odd that you go from "It's not in the lore, it's a retcon!" to that complaint instead once you were shown to be wrong about the idea not fitting in with kislev lore...

    No one has claimed that there are "Kislev ice-weapon woman guard in WFRP books or WFB army books". That doesn't stop the elements that make up this unit having been present in Kislev lore even in the time period of the 90s/2000s you're on about.

    It seems more that you're just moving the goalposts just and using an absurd strawman argument so you can keep refusing to accept things because you don't like the designs and want to complain regardless.


    You're living in your own fantasy world on this one.

    So yeah, I believe you believe any of that. But, I also believe you're getting a bit upset and it's clouding you're thinking. My argument didn't change, yours very quickly did. My goalposts didn't move. Yours are currently headed down the highway. Go ahead and cite where these models fit into WFB, that is your essential claim, you have repeatedly failed so far. If you can't do it, well then keep posting to save face by whining about me. You can have the last word.

     Mr Morden wrote:

    I have them all as well - and as you well know thats not what I said - if you actualy go back and look at your books you will read how important Ice magic and Ice witches are.


    If you believe I don't think Kislev have ice magic than you have misunderstood my intent good sir.

     Mr Morden wrote:

    OK seriously? Warhammer is grounded - what complete nonsese - especially Fantasy battles - again actually look at the covers of your books - its armies and mages and dragons clashing in massively over the top battles - now i get YOU might want Warhammer to be about the Sewer Watch but Fantasy battle is absolutely not.

    There are plenty of examples shown above by other for your "Cite me" obession- just read the actual lore mate.


    That your understanding of Warhammer lore goes as deep as looking at book covers, I can believe. Again, I don't see anything here but angry internet commenting because your opinion was challenged. Okay. You can compete for the last word as well.

    chaos0xomega wrote:
    Anyone saying that WHFB was based in Tolkien fantasy is automatically wrong. The elements borrowed from Moorcock are far more obvious and important to the setting, and Moorcock was the anti-Tolkien. Moorcockian fantasy is also way way way more over the top and Kislev fits right in with what's already there.


    You're one of the people whose posts I generally read on thread chaos0xomega, I think you usually have good points, but I find this point simplistic and binary, and not worth debating personally.

    K bai!]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600053.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600053.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I do however tend to agree with frankelee. If such a unit had been created in 4th-6th, they'd almost certainly just be regular women with conventional weapons - and any superiority would be demonstrated by a slightly upgraded stat line. I.E. kind of grounded. Its later editions where "this unit is magic all of the time" seems to take hold.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600065.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600065.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     frankelee wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:


    It's odd that you go from "It's not in the lore, it's a retcon!" to that complaint instead once you were shown to be wrong about the idea not fitting in with kislev lore...

    No one has claimed that there are "Kislev ice-weapon woman guard in WFRP books or WFB army books". That doesn't stop the elements that make up this unit having been present in Kislev lore even in the time period of the 90s/2000s you're on about.

    It seems more that you're just moving the goalposts just and using an absurd strawman argument so you can keep refusing to accept things because you don't like the designs and want to complain regardless.


    You're living in your own fantasy world on this one.

    So yeah, I believe you believe any of that. But, I also believe you're getting a bit upset and it's clouding you're thinking. My argument didn't change, yours very quickly did. My goalposts didn't move. Yours are currently headed down the highway. Go ahead and cite where these models fit into WFB, that is your essential claim, you have repeatedly failed so far. If you can't do it, well then keep posting to save face by whining about me. You can have the last word.



    You absolutely did move the goalposts. Here's a quote of your own post for you:

    > Sorry guise, but I don't know much about the retcon lore post 6th edition. It very well can be that it fit WFB in 2015, or WFB in 2024, either way it's a very late and significant tonal change from what the game was.


    Absurd for you to try to claim you weren't talking about the lore when you outright mention lore as the context for the post.

    You haven't even done anything to argue against what I said with it fitting their lore and style. You've just immediately gone to being condescending, rude and straw-manning things.

    They fit, as i've said several times now. Their lore matches up with the sort of thing Kislev had before and has been portrayed as for years.

    Design wise, there is nothing about them that is any more outlandish than many, many other WHFB things. Even within just Kislev's look, as i gave examples of already.

    Go ahead and show where my argument "quickly changed".]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600066.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600066.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     BrookM wrote:
    Could you guys use spoiler tags for those posts please?


    I don't quite understand why we're discussing Kislev fluff at all given that this is News and Rumours and we haven't heard anything about Kislev for like a year If this was the Epic N&R thread we would have been told to get back on topic even if it WAS discussion pertinent to the upcoming release ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600102.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600102.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Tyel wrote:
    If such a unit had been created in 4th-6th, they'd almost certainly just be regular women with conventional weapons - and any superiority would be demonstrated by a slightly upgraded stat line.


    You understand this is the same time period where GW released Amazons with lasgun staves, right? GW back then was not above an elite unit with magic ice weapons.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600111.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600111.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     infinite_array wrote:
     Vulcan wrote:
     Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
     Shadow Walker wrote:
    New foot knights are the star of this show for me.


    I'm looking forward to a certain section of people lose their over there being women foot knights.


    There's very little visual difference between a man and a woman of the same height in most armors. The padding underneath goes a long way toward hiding feminine curves. Unless it's specifically configured to highlight her (ahem) feminine assets or she takes off her helmet, even a pretty busty woman in a breastplate won't be all that obvious.

    Consider Eowyn in the LOTR movies. Yes, we know it's her, we recognize her face. But is she not OBVIOUSLY a woman until she takes off her helmet.

    So my army features several female knights, even if you can't tell which ones they are, and you can't prove otherwise.


    Most of the Riders in the movie were women! It was the only way to get enough skilled horse riders.


    Yep. And nobody noticed.

    Which makes the whole argument about women in armor pretty silly, in my opinion.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600157.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600157.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600158.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600158.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumor
     nathan2004 wrote:
    I don’t have my computer powered up right now to check myself but are foot knights an option in Total war? If so, might give us insight into new units coming in old world?


    No, just “foot squires”.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600160.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600160.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW didn't want it to exist, it wouldn't exist. CA doesn't just get to invent units themselves. Like all license partners, they have to get everything approved (or simply created by) GW.

    So you can say that Ice Guard aren't really part of Kislev, but GW says they are, and that's all there is to it. The buck stops with them.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600161.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600161.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Lord Damocles wrote:
    Is that supposed to be a woman? The only thing suggesting that to my eyes is the lack of a handlebar moustache. I assumed that it was just a younger male.


    I could see it either way. A bit of green wash on the chin, cheeks, and above the upper lip to simulate stubble and it would look very different. Maybe even just using a slightly darker skin tone could make a big difference.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600163.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600163.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    I think what people are forgetting about the Ice Guard is this: If GW didn't want it to exist, it wouldn't exist. CA doesn't just get to invent units themselves. Like all license partners, they have to get everything approved (or simply created by) GW.

    So you can say that Ice Guard aren't really part of Kislev, but GW says they are, and that's all there is to it. The buck stops with them.


    It's a game first and foremost. The game drives the lore, not the other way around.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600164.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600164.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     SgtEeveell wrote:
     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    I think what people are forgetting about the Ice Guard is this: If GW didn't want it to exist, it wouldn't exist. CA doesn't just get to invent units themselves. Like all license partners, they have to get everything approved (or simply created by) GW.

    So you can say that Ice Guard aren't really part of Kislev, but GW says they are, and that's all there is to it. The buck stops with them.


    It's a game first and foremost. The game drives the lore, not the other way around.


    According to the designers, the model design drives both first and foremost.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600165.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600165.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    I think what people are forgetting about the Ice Guard is this: If GW didn't want it to exist, it wouldn't exist. CA doesn't just get to invent units themselves. Like all license partners, they have to get everything approved (or simply created by) GW.

    So you can say that Ice Guard aren't really part of Kislev, but GW says they are, and that's all there is to it. The buck stops with them.


    I don't think that changes anything for the members of the rose tinted nostalgia brigade. To them, everything nu-GW does is wrong and evil, and everything old-GW did in the past was perfect, and if nu-GW does something that violates their beliefs about what old-GW would have done, then its wrong.

     SgtEeveell wrote:
     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    I think what people are forgetting about the Ice Guard is this: If GW didn't want it to exist, it wouldn't exist. CA doesn't just get to invent units themselves. Like all license partners, they have to get everything approved (or simply created by) GW.

    So you can say that Ice Guard aren't really part of Kislev, but GW says they are, and that's all there is to it. The buck stops with them.


    It's a game first and foremost. The game drives the lore, not the other way around.


    Actually the minis drive the lore first and foremost. GW has a model-first process, it goes model -> lore -> rules. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600168.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600168.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/03/23/the-old-world-ice-guard-of-kislevgw-homepage-post-4fw-homepage-post-2/

    One new unit that’s in the early stages of development is set in the Ice Court – the seat of the ruling Tsar or Tsarina. Known as the Ice Guard, they’re an elite fighting formation of warrior women, equally skilled with bow and blade.


    Not really sure why people are thinking that because they've not shown anything already it means they aren't coming]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600196.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600196.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW has changed dramatically since a lot of the earlier Bretonnian range was released (duh!). That is to say, I think there used to be more of the people who came into designing WFB from a historical wargaming perspective, like the Perry twins, bringing a somewhat historical perspective and design to the armor and weaponry. For me, the new Bretonnians, particularly the helmets, clearly show the influence that new designers draw from D&D and Warcraft or other fantasy settings in the 2000s, including AoS.

    To me, if previous Bretonnians were like 80% 13th century Western European knights and 20% fantasy, these appear more like 50-50%.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600203.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600203.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Osorios wrote:
    I think it's interesting that it appears the design philosophy of GW has changed dramatically since a lot of the earlier Bretonnian range was released (duh!). That is to say, I think there used to be more of the people who came into designing WFB from a historical wargaming perspective, like the Perry twins, bringing a somewhat historical perspective and design to the armor and weaponry. For me, the new Bretonnians, particularly the helmets, clearly show the influence that new designers draw from D&D and Warcraft or other fantasy settings in the 2000s, including AoS.

    To me, if previous Bretonnians were like 80% 13th century Western European knights and 20% fantasy, these appear more like 50-50%.


    The original Bretonnian range was designed for a historical wargame that GW was working on, but when that ended up not being released the moulds were re-purposed for Warhammer Fantasy. Over the years, as models got added to the range, the fantasy aesthetic got strengthened.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600222.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600222.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     SgtEeveell wrote:
     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    I think what people are forgetting about the Ice Guard is this: If GW didn't want it to exist, it wouldn't exist. CA doesn't just get to invent units themselves. Like all license partners, they have to get everything approved (or simply created by) GW.

    So you can say that Ice Guard aren't really part of Kislev, but GW says they are, and that's all there is to it. The buck stops with them.


    It's a game first and foremost. The game drives the lore, not the other way around.


    Nah. Model designers come up with model. It's tossed to fluff and rule writers with premise "make sure this is mentioned in fluff and has rules"]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600224.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600224.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600240.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600240.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors LI stuff in White Dwarf and a lot of models and content on show. So pushing Old World out for LI makes a lot of sense. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600245.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600245.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I also wonder if the norm will effectively be one new plastic unit, one or two multiuse plastic monsters, and a bunch of resin character models, and then old models. That seems plausible. They could do with a new plastic wyvern for the Orcs for example.

    The last big remaining question for me then would be if they really bring back the BFSP Night Goblin kit, or if they just tell you to use the AOS models.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600249.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600249.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    http://www.theoldworld.com/

    Not really anything of interest, and if you already follow any GW game its likely this page is going to have no useful information but I guess its more for people looking up 'the old world' online.

    I'd have thought they would have at least sneaked a sneaky reveal to generate a little traffic to the page. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600250.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600250.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors LI taking over the November slot has been going around for a while now so nothing new the February thing is also not new as GW had a mistake after Saturdays stream and posted this bevor deleting it again:

    The actually interesting part is the two other paragraphs. The second one is reasonable as Bretonia also got an infantry squad in addition to their leader model but the third paragraph has one part that makes me lean towards it being fake in that it says it will have "a" Starter set. Meanwhile Valrak, who that early next year with Legions Imperialis taking over the November slot rumour originated from, said that there wouldn't be a single classical starter set with both factions but instead both Bretonia and Tomb Kings will get their own "launch sets". I can't remember if those include the rulebook but its clear that it would be two "starter sets" and not just one this way.
    Could of course just be that whoever wrote that just wasn't that precise but then again its 4chan so should be taken with salt in the first place]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600251.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600251.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Spoiler:
    Well, I hear there's only 2 new (plastic) kits for TK, one a hero/lord on chariot, the other a unit of sand mummies (whatever that means).
    The (not) starter box (TK v Brets) will drop last week Jan/first week Feb at a cost of 185 gbp. It contains only plastic models, so none of the new resins, old resin/metal minis, although these will launch at around the same time, possibly even the following week/fortnight, along with standalone rulebook and plastics from the not starter box. There will be some "quality of life" stuff the following month (plastic templates, dice etc.), and in late summer another box of Orcs vs Empire, apparently O&G get one new plastic kit (possibly boar chariot) and empire gets 3 plastic kits. There is a new "narrative" book to go alongside these releases, as the first release the components from this bunch will release "soon"(tm) afterwards, along with a couple of NEW resin pieces for both, one of which is a named Orc character

    Summary:

  • TK only receive two new plastic kits: Hero/Lord on chariot, and a unit of "sand mummies"

  • TK vs Bret (not) starter dropping last week Jan/first week Feb, price will be £185

  • Will only contain plastic models, none of the new resin/old resin/metal minis

  • New resin/old resin/metal minis will launch around the same time, possibly the following week/fortnight alongside standalone rulebooks and plastics from the "not starter"

  • "Quality of life" stuff the following month (plastic templates, dice etc.)

  • Late summer box of Orcs vs Empire, O&G receive one new plastic kit (possibly boar chariot), Empire 3 plastic kits

  • New "narrative" book to go alongside these releases, components from this bunch will release "soon" afterwards, along with a couple of new resin pieces for both, one of which is a named Orc character

    • Hasting also commented "I have heard that the TK chariot is beautiful, and having seen the new Bret stuff I don't doubt that."

    Seems plausible. Seeing a new plastic chariot next to the 20+ year old ones will be jarring, especially since the core of the army is going to be based on 20+ year old kits, the same ones that are (one) of the main reasons people never started TK.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600258.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600258.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sathrut wrote:


    Seems very plausible, but if the TK core isn't being updated, that will be very disappointing.


    Sucks to be a TK player that wanted new models, but TBH I'm really, really hoping the old troop models remain the same as the old kit. I need hundreds to the old skeletal horses, and if they remake them you can count on them being like modern sculpts with the legs sculpted on.

    With the old kits, sure they are very old but it also allows for most of the vampire counts force to be easily available (as long as you are happy to the new AoS stuff in).

    I would take it as a bonus if the old TK skeletons and riders are the ones they go with. Happy to see them replaced in the future sure, but for now as this is a half-hearted half-baked release anyway, at least its a 2 for 1 army deal allowing VCs to have some hope of continuing their old armies. We are getting old kits no matter what, might as well be ones that work in our favour. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600259.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600259.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600262.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600262.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    TK vs Bret (not) starter dropping last week Jan/first week Feb, price will be £185
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600263.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600263.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Vorian wrote:
    But that rumour says a 2 faction starter:

    TK vs Bret (not) starter dropping last week Jan/first week Feb, price will be £185


    Oh, right. So there are conflicting rumors then.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600264.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600264.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors TK Dragon) but didn't mention the new foot knights.

    New rumour has that Dragon as a chariot.

    Hastings was always pretty spot on from what I remember.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600268.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600268.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600270.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600270.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    So they could be cheeky and half update tomb King cavalry by replacing their horses with the new ones.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600290.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600290.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW put them on their own sprue.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600300.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600300.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sathrut wrote:
    Those rumours from 4chan seem be taken from Hasting's post on War of Sigmar:
    Spoiler:
    Well, I hear there's only 2 new (plastic) kits for TK, one a hero/lord on chariot, the other a unit of sand mummies (whatever that means).
    The (not) starter box (TK v Brets) will drop last week Jan/first week Feb at a cost of 185 gbp. It contains only plastic models, so none of the new resins, old resin/metal minis, although these will launch at around the same time, possibly even the following week/fortnight, along with standalone rulebook and plastics from the not starter box. There will be some "quality of life" stuff the following month (plastic templates, dice etc.), and in late summer another box of Orcs vs Empire, apparently O&G get one new plastic kit (possibly boar chariot) and empire gets 3 plastic kits. There is a new "narrative" book to go alongside these releases, as the first release the components from this bunch will release "soon"(tm) afterwards, along with a couple of NEW resin pieces for both, one of which is a named Orc character

    Summary:

  • TK only receive two new plastic kits: Hero/Lord on chariot, and a unit of "sand mummies"

  • TK vs Bret (not) starter dropping last week Jan/first week Feb, price will be £185

  • Will only contain plastic models, none of the new resin/old resin/metal minis

  • New resin/old resin/metal minis will launch around the same time, possibly the following week/fortnight alongside standalone rulebooks and plastics from the "not starter"

  • "Quality of life" stuff the following month (plastic templates, dice etc.)

  • Late summer box of Orcs vs Empire, O&G receive one new plastic kit (possibly boar chariot), Empire 3 plastic kits

  • New "narrative" book to go alongside these releases, components from this bunch will release "soon" afterwards, along with a couple of new resin pieces for both, one of which is a named Orc character

    • Hasting also commented "I have heard that the TK chariot is beautiful, and having seen the new Bret stuff I don't doubt that."

    Seems plausible. Seeing a new plastic chariot next to the 20+ year old ones will be jarring, especially since the core of the army is going to be based on 20+ year old kits, the same ones that are (one) of the main reasons people never started TK.


    This flies in the face of earlier rumors (from Valrak?) which seem increasingly accurate based on what was revealed this weekend with regards to Bretonnia. We were told no 2-player box and instead individual faction boxes. We were also told that the Tomb Kings were getting a bone dragon ridden by a Liche or something to go opposite the Bretonnian pegasus hero. We even have what appears to be a rumor engine preview of the bone dragons wing. I'm hesitant to believe this is accurate.

    Also have a hard time believing they would release a new plastic hero on chariot and not also have it be able to build a non-hero chariot option.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600309.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600309.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sathrut wrote:
    Those rumours from 4chan seem be taken from Hasting's post on War of Sigmar:


    Fun fact: those Rumors from that Mikhael are few hours older than Hastings.

    They sound plausible. Both seems to have their informations from the same source?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600321.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600321.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    .
    Also have a hard time believing they would release a new plastic hero on chariot and not also have it be able to build a non-hero chariot option.
    same with the Pegapony for Bretonnia, so not unlikely ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600352.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600352.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors


    https://boards.4channel.org/tg/thread/90595544#p90597307]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600363.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600363.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600386.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600386.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    All sensible choices except the Great Cannon, that doesn't seem like a necessary update... ?


    Maybe a more 'old-fashioned' cannon to go with the time period? I'm not up on how quickly gunpowder tech advanced in the Empire.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600397.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600397.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Also, I could have sworn Mikhael was identified as a fraud at some point in the past couple years? Might be confusing him with someone else, but I recall someone was posting rumors to reddit which ended up being total bs. Could have sworn it was him.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600411.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600411.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    RazorEdge wrote:
    Found on 4chan:


    Am I too optimistic for thinking that the 'Compendium Book' could be this generation's 6e Ravening Hordes?

    Yes. Probably. I can hope though.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600416.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600416.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600418.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600418.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Londinium wrote:
    RazorEdge wrote:
    Found on 4chan:


    Am I too optimistic for thinking that the 'Compendium Book' could be this generation's 6e Ravening Hordes?

    Yes. Probably. I can hope though.


    Worse still the rumour actually reads 'Compendium BookS'

    I suspect we will multiple 'get you by' books that will be outdated within a month, as soon as the first standalone army book/narrative book is released separately.

    I'm not against the idea of them doing this, to get the game going quickly at least. But when they charge what they do for books and they become outdated almost instantly, whats the point. By the time you get a new force painted up from scratch, the first books will be invalidated. Might as well wait for the next batch of book releases tbh]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600423.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600423.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors


    It would make for a nice center piece for Empire armies.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600436.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600436.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors .]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600484.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600484.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600487.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600487.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    But gosh, no land boats, no wizards, it's really making me wonder why they made TOW a prequel.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600489.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600489.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Kid_Kyoto wrote:
    There could be more than one land boat.

    But gosh, no land boats, no wizards, it's really making me wonder why they made TOW a prequel.


    There were Imperial Wizards prior to the formation to the College of Magic. They were just highly suspect and ill-trained. Usually called hedge-wizards from what I recall.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600492.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600492.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600495.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600495.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     nathan2004 wrote:
    Part of me would kill for a freaking War Wagon...dang I loved that model but never was able to acquire it.


    GW did a MTO for the old Halfling Hot Pot a few years ago. So I have slowly been building up some hope that they might be able to do a MTO for the old 90s Empire range.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600496.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600496.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     nathan2004 wrote:
    Part of me would kill for a freaking War Wagon...dang I loved that model but never was able to acquire it.

    I got myself one not so long ago, but damn had I been hoping this would be the perfect chance to finally see one in plastic! I do not know how people got theirs built to stay together 30 years ago, other than superglue has gotten worse as time has gone on!

    I'm dreading getting mine done, as the parts are so thin!

    With TOW being a 'prequel', I would think they would use this as a chance to update older 80s designs like the war wagon in place of canons and big griffin models etc

    But from the sounds of the rumours, we are just getting 8th ed left overs, AoS leftovers but a new cannon! ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600499.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600499.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Concerning a War Wagon in plastic: could happen for the initial Empire wave (despite the latest rumours), or later. Or - and I consider this more likely - it will get a FW resin model. For now I remain in the "wait and see" camp.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600501.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600501.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Platuan4th wrote:
    The "land boat on wheels" was built by Marienburg after its independence in 2429, nearly 1000 years after TOW is set.


    Too many zeroes. ToW is set in the lead-up to the Great War Against Chaos, which was around 2300.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600512.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600512.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Will they be the size of those old Army deal boxes?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600514.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600514.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors the plastic Bretonnia content shown will likely be the one in the box
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600518.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600518.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600532.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600532.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600548.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600548.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    pgmason wrote:
     Platuan4th wrote:
    The "land boat on wheels" was built by Marienburg after its independence in 2429, nearly 1000 years after TOW is set.


    Too many zeroes. ToW is set in the lead-up to the Great War Against Chaos, which was around 2300.


    The Age of Three Emperors started in the 1500's and TOW is set in that period before the Great War Against Chaos.

    But yes, still several hundred years before Marienburg was independent.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600619.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600619.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600628.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600628.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors Mordheim).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600630.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600630.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Hellebore wrote:
    I wonder if it will be in the middle of the 3E, concurrent with Mordheim. That provides a lot of potential.


    It seems to be quite a bit later than Mordheim.

    The original Louen Orc Slayer reference would seem to date it well after, then more recently GW have said it is set after the Vampire Wars as the reason VC are not a main army for it.

    Mordheim is set before the first Vampire War, so significantly earlier.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600670.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600670.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW were to do anything with the setting they only just blew up, they'd go with Mordheim. Maybe when Necromunda was more complete and sales start to slag.

    I wouldn't take the existence of The Old World or the time its set in as any sign for or against Mordheim. The game seems separately viable to me. If they want to remake it, I'd expect it'll be because they want to replicate what they have with Necromunda, regardless of any success or failure The Old World might have. Not the least because GW sees value enough in the Warhammer Fantasy setting to invest (ever so cautiously) in a followup game without much proof of its viability.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600708.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600708.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors KS for 3d printable Tomb Kings just started ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600710.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600710.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW makes it exceptionally easy on the competition with their lack of commitment.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600714.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600714.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Geifer wrote:
    It's a good time. GW makes it exceptionally easy on the competition with their lack of commitment.


    Sadly for Gw, the warhammer fantasy IP long outgrew its need for official GW support. Its not even like 40k, where it 'needs' gw to continue using very specific iconography on its minis.


    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600724.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600724.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600749.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600749.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Geifer wrote:
    Prior to the announcement of The Old World, I thought that if GW were to do anything with the setting they only just blew up, they'd go with Mordheim. Maybe when Necromunda was more complete and sales start to slag.

    I wouldn't take the existence of The Old World or the time its set in as any sign for or against Mordheim. The game seems separately viable to me. If they want to remake it, I'd expect it'll be because they want to replicate what they have with Necromunda, regardless of any success or failure The Old World might have. Not the least because GW sees value enough in the Warhammer Fantasy setting to invest (ever so cautiously) in a followup game without much proof of its viability.


    Setting is supposed to be after 1999 and 2300 when Magnus the Pious cleanses Mordheim. So its a possibility. The game is living very well as fan supported though. I hope GW just keeps their hands off it. Not like they're going to release a starter set with cardboard buildings again. And they cant compete with the selection in 3d printed terrain...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600784.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600784.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    if we assume the mentioned 32 model boxes for Archers is the current 45 GBP price point, the mentioned content would be 50% discount in the box


    Here's my back of the napkin math for a GW set of 32 models. 45GBP is less than two dollars per model. Can't have that. Let's double it to 64 GBP. Then let's add another to round it to a nice 65 GBP. Then we'll put a $99 USD price tag on it, which should only be $79 USD, because reasons. Then we'll charge the Aussies $420 aussie dollars for those 32 models. Bob's your uncle!

    I'd be really surprised if we see anything close to $2 per model for anything out of ToW, even really old plastic sculpts. Which is a shame, because I might be interested in older models, but not at current price points. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600788.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600788.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors

    These aren't new plastics that need paying for themselves. Especially the re-release stuff. These are literally the cost of materials for them. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600875.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600875.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    They may be old kits but they have enhanced value because NoStAlGiA. Also, the cost to warehouse, store, and maintain a set of steel molds for ~10 years in usable condition is higher than most people realize, both in terms of the cost of that square footage/cubic volume, but also the energy costs and labor involved. You can't just plop them down in any old room and let them sit and collect dust. Best practices actually require long term storage in a conditioned environment within set temperature and humidity tolerances (i.e. you're paying for HVAC year round), and periodic lubrication/oiling to prevent rust, etc.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600891.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600891.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    I'm figuring 75-90 for a full box, based on the cost of 20 Mk3/6 marines or 10 Cataphractii/Tartaros Termies.

    They may be old kits but they have enhanced value because NoStAlGiA. Also, the cost to warehouse, store, and maintain a set of steel molds for ~10 years in usable condition is higher than most people realize, both in terms of the cost of that square footage/cubic volume, but also the energy costs and labor involved. You can't just plop them down in any old room and let them sit and collect dust. Best practices actually require long term storage in a conditioned environment within set temperature and humidity tolerances (i.e. you're paying for HVAC year round), and periodic lubrication/oiling to prevent rust, etc.


    So my old models will probably increase in resalevalue, not decrease, of old world reprints the same models.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600903.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600903.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW minis that haven't increased in value over time, so that goes without saying.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600929.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11600929.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11601054.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11601054.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11601323.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11601323.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Not looking forward to whatever extortionate level of pricing they're going to embrace, though.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11601517.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11601517.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11601523.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11601523.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    I don't really know of any GW minis that haven't increased in value over time, so that goes without saying.


    I think blood knights actually got cheaper when they got a plastic kit for AOS. The finecast models cost $100 and I think they're like forty dollars less now. Though thats more of a case of the models being way overpriced]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11601569.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11601569.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11601578.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11601578.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    That's a good point on that. I wonder how that's impacted the value of metal blood Knights though. There's plenty of minis that have been resculpted, but the older ones gain value over the newer ones. Juan Diaz daemonettes for example.


    Ah yes, Juan Diaz daemonettes. Made of a hard, firm, lustrous material. And of such value they inflame covetous and possessive desire far in excess of reason. Indeed the Slaanesh is strong with these ones.

    Back on topic, the last few Made to Orders for old minis make me wince at the probable price point for The Old World, even for ancient plastics. GW will charge what it thinks it can get away with. And that's usually a lot. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11601584.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11601584.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    That's a good point on that. I wonder how that's impacted the value of metal blood Knights though. There's plenty of minis that have been resculpted, but the older ones gain value over the newer ones. Juan Diaz daemonettes for example.


    Not every sculpt can gain value though. Most lack certain attributes ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11601640.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11601640.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     GaroRobe wrote:
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    I don't really know of any GW minis that haven't increased in value over time, so that goes without saying.


    I think blood knights actually got cheaper when they got a plastic kit for AOS. The finecast models cost $100 and I think they're like forty dollars less now. Though thats more of a case of the models being way overpriced


    Yes, as nice as it is to see a price go down on a new incarnation of a kit, the price of the metal/resin Blood Knights was a pretty significant outlier from the moment they were released. The reason for the price decrease is just that the plastic version is priced in line with other five model elite cavalry like Chaos Knights. Outside of discount boxes, the only way the price of a GW kit goes down is if it's repackaged like for instance Juggernauts. Model count is doubled but price is a little lower than double.

    Horus Heresy's prices have been brought up by a few people occasionally. GW going a similar route with The Old World and offering a small bulk discount that 40k and AoS don't get is about the only way I see us getting any reprieve on price. Otherwise the game will have the same premium we know and love from GW. Let's not forget that we're paying for the brand name. Material cost and age of sculpt won't play much of a role.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11601658.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11601658.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Geifer wrote:
    Material cost and age of sculpt won't play much of a role.


    See it as an investment for new kits / books to come. While I get what you're saying, it's actually not true : they still do play a role. GW here doesn't just release stuff from before, they still need to produce everything - from plastic new bases to new cardboard boxes. Old molds need maintenance. There are also new kits as they showed it in the previews. And material / logistic cost has risen up significantly since the days of Warhammer Battle.


    As for the "competition"...Kickstarters and 3D sculpting are nice and all, but they're not a competition in itself to The Old World here - they are actually dependant of existing game systems more than anything else and they certainly don't want to replace them if they want to keep selling. On KS, a lot of these files are never printed because it's all about FOMO and file hoarding "just in case" most of the time (a bit similar to boardgames from CMON). The number of actual armies fully printed (not even talking about being painted ) is a full job in itself only a handful few will commit to the end. Especially when it's intended to be played only in your close group and certainly not in official stores / tournaments because, well...it's clearly not GW stuff, you know. You can always say "but I know people who came with printed stuff at stores / tournaments !"...they're more the exception than the rule.

    However, it's a good thing to have more variety on the market, and it's interesting to see what is the interpretation of the same faction by different people. So it's a very good situation for the hobby, more than for the game. GW will be fine.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11601666.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11601666.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11601690.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11601690.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sarouan wrote:
     Geifer wrote:
    Material cost and age of sculpt won't play much of a role.


    See it as an investment for new kits / books to come. While I get what you're saying, it's actually not true : they still do play a role. GW here doesn't just release stuff from before, they still need to produce everything - from plastic new bases to new cardboard boxes. Old molds need maintenance. There are also new kits as they showed it in the previews. And material / logistic cost has risen up significantly since the days of Warhammer Battle.


    As for the "competition"...Kickstarters and 3D sculpting are nice and all, but they're not a competition in itself to The Old World here - they are actually dependant of existing game systems more than anything else and they certainly don't want to replace them if they want to keep selling. On KS, a lot of these files are never printed because it's all about FOMO and file hoarding "just in case" most of the time (a bit similar to boardgames from CMON). The number of actual armies fully printed (not even talking about being painted ) is a full job in itself only a handful few will commit to the end. Especially when it's intended to be played only in your close group and certainly not in official stores / tournaments because, well...it's clearly not GW stuff, you know. You can always say "but I know people who came with printed stuff at stores / tournaments !"...they're more the exception than the rule.

    However, it's a good thing to have more variety on the market, and it's interesting to see what is the interpretation of the same faction by different people. So it's a very good situation for the hobby, more than for the game. GW will be fine.


    No lies detected.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11601693.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11601693.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602226.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602226.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602277.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602277.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    Are you talking about the new foot Knights of the realm or the old mounted foot Knights? I'm assuming you mean the former, the mounted Knights are tiny by comparison, they look like teenagers riding ponies by comparison.


    I'm talking about mounted knights of the realm that are about to be rereleased. The new CoS seems to be exactly the same size of plastic peasants, so I was wondering what the knights look like]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602280.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602280.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors

    from Brückenkopf, the old bretonnian cavalry was similar sized (a little larger) to the island of blood high elves]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602281.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602281.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW's standards those horses look excessive.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602287.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602287.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602289.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602289.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors cm depending on the exact period)

    https://medievalwarhorse.exeter.ac.uk/2022/07/09/the-size-of-a-warhorse/

    old GW is probably a bit on the small side (but not as much as you expect)

    New GW are modern big horse size which look cooler, but would be a real pig to try and get onto again if you came off and survived the fall

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602298.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602298.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:


    from Brückenkopf, the old bretonnian cavalry was similar sized (a little larger) to the island of blood high elves


    Cheers! They do look quite a bit bigger, but it seems to be just the horses, not the actual riders]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602371.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602371.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors mms off their height. So there is actually a good degree of difference in the size of the riders, but I think its less noticeable due to the proportions of the old riders making the key focal points (hands, feet, head) seem closer in size to those of the new riders.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602383.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602383.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602596.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602596.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors FW resin according to the article.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602600.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602600.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602657.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602657.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
    Remastered in FW resin according to the article.

    I hope it really is re-mastered because I don’t want to even begin to think how bad it would be as a re-cast from a previous production kit. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602766.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602766.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602777.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602777.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    if the have "remastered" I wonder if the counterweight will now actually fit between the uprights?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602964.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602964.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
    T

    old GW is probably a bit on the small side (but not as much as you expect)




    A bit? I have old Fantasy skeletons and vampires and they look freaking tiny nexto Age of Sigmar stuff. If you think you can use Old World minis for AoS think again.

    Proof: ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602965.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602965.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors aos almost every game

    So no need to rethink.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602981.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602981.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors aos ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602991.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602991.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sasorijap wrote:
     OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
    T

    old GW is probably a bit on the small side (but not as much as you expect)




    A bit? I have old Fantasy skeletons and vampires and they look freaking tiny nexto Age of Sigmar stuff. If you think you can use Old World minis for AoS think again.

    Proof:


    I will say those AoS models are from the Underworlds war bands where each model is essentially a mini hero in the game and a bigger scale up in my opinion.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602997.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11602997.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW wanted to do some upscaling, but I don't understand why those four vampires needed to be truescale Space Marines.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603013.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603013.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors AoS lore thing apparently? Something about vampirism makes them grow significantly in size vs a baseline human or something.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603019.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603019.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    And we are setting them become more feral which I think is also part of making them more about being vampires and less "elf with pointy teeth" desgn wise.

    They aren't just taller, some are sporting bat hair and others are turning into wolf/bat creatures ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603081.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603081.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Overread wrote:
    I think its about shifting them from a faction in Old World that basically hid all the time within mortal settlements; to one that's standing super proud on their own right. They have vast land tracks now and they don't have to hide, they are prideful and marching in all their glory.

    And we are setting them become more feral which I think is also part of making them more about being vampires and less "elf with pointy teeth" desgn wise.

    They aren't just taller, some are sporting bat hair and others are turning into wolf/bat creatures


    The feral vampire trope has been going on since about 7th Edition Fantasy (and the vamp sculpts have been the worse for it ever since), AoS has just leaned into it even more with the bat hair etc. even on non Vargheist/Strigoi types. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603087.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603087.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors AoS vamps compare to end times era characters like Mannfred and Neferata? Weren't thise already a bit larger in scale than previous models?

    In any case, I will probably opt for the best designs while trying to keep discrepancies minimal. Skaven and Orks don't really have that particular problem in the first place. AoS Death delivered updates to most(?) VC units and I don't see them doing a smaller scale variant for ToW. I'm definitely also not going to buy the old dire wolves or fell bats.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603136.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603136.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    From what I understand, giant vampires is an AoS lore thing apparently? Something about vampirism makes them grow significantly in size vs a baseline human or something.


    Depends on the bloodline and the Realm - Neferata's children are often not feral but there are some. The Realms do make a big difference which makes sense for entities that can live for milennia.

    There is the monsterous bloodline.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603166.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603166.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors AoS depiction of even the regular regal looking human vampire types having the minis be noticeably taller than regular humans. Someone once told me it was because vampirism in the mortal realms causes them to grow bigger and stronger than a typical human.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603188.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603188.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     BertBert wrote:
    Does anyone know how AoS vamps compare to end times era characters like Mannfred and Neferata? Weren't thise already a bit larger in scale than previous models?

    In any case, I will probably opt for the best designs while trying to keep discrepancies minimal. Skaven and Orks don't really have that particular problem in the first place. AoS Death delivered updates to most(?) VC units and I don't see them doing a smaller scale variant for ToW. I'm definitely also not going to buy the old dire wolves or fell bats.


    Yes. Quite significantly, based on the need for GW to overdetail the models now. In effect the new vampires are a couple heads taller then the old ones. They are not cross compatible. The models are all going up around 35-37mm range. These aren't The Old World vampire army.

    Style-wise, as well- They are also not compatible. They look like Modern Art Masterpieces, and some of them do not even look like they belong in the same game.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603191.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603191.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Edit: The non-beast form, that is.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603200.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603200.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors




    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603323.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603323.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603331.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603331.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sasorijap wrote:
    It will look silly and out of scale to mix models.

    I think gobbos are safe, new rock trolls as well.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603333.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603333.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Gimgamgoo wrote:
    New vampires? Far too big for WFB. Who knows how much the newer models for ToW will be scaled up though.


    Given that they've said Vampire Counts is one of the armies not being supported (at least, not right away), I'm not sure it matters too much.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603335.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603335.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors AoS models could just be used for ToW. It wouldn't surprise me if they just start putting square and round bases in many of the kits and call it a day. Or start doing movements trays with circular insets. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603345.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603345.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sunno wrote:
    Many of the AoS models could just be used for ToW. It wouldn't surprise me if they just start putting square and round bases in many of the kits and call it a day. Or start doing movements trays with circular insets.

    They could be used for both but I don't think GW wants that to happen. Why sell one model for two systems if you can just sell two models instead. Just look at HH and 40k, nearly all HH models where removed for 10th.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603352.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603352.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors AOS models also are covered in stormcast bits or other AOS specific doodads (though the rockgut troggoths are good to go). I dunno if that’s necessarily a deal breaker though, since I imagine a lot of the rereleased empire models will have Karl Franz iconography ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603353.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603353.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Matrindur wrote:
    Sunno wrote:
    Many of the AoS models could just be used for ToW. It wouldn't surprise me if they just start putting square and round bases in many of the kits and call it a day. Or start doing movements trays with circular insets.

    They could be used for both but I don't think GW wants that to happen. Why sell one model for two systems if you can just sell two models instead. Just look at HH and 40k, nearly all HH models where removed for 10th.


    Because I think GW would be hard pressed in many cases to justify making double kits. A night goblin is a night goblin. A vampire skeleton warrior is vampire skeleton warrior. A Skink is a Skink. I put any of those AoS models on a square base it IS a ToW model (and visa-versa of course). I just dont think GW would sell the volumes to justify making two kits in the case of line troops for armies that basically exist in both setting, stupid AoS names not withstanding.

    Characters, special units and centrepiece models/monsters could be another matter I grant you.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603357.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603357.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors 40k to keep those systems apart

    You might think it will be a good idea of not having a AoS skeleton kit as well as a TOW skeleton kit
    GW thinks it is better to let you by both hence why there is Khemri in one and Vampires in the other game

    Same for Goblins, one dedicated for each game so people by both if they want to play both]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603366.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603366.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    One might think and yet they removed all the 30k models from 40k to keep those systems apart

    You might think it will be a good idea of not having a AoS skeleton kit as well as a TOW skeleton kit
    GW thinks it is better to let you by both hence why there is Khemri in one and Vampires in the other game

    Same for Goblins, one dedicated for each game so people by both if they want to play both


    Is there any reason to assume night goblins won't be in ToW? Given they're also a decade + year old set of sprues, same for spider riders.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603373.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603373.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Dudeface wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    One might think and yet they removed all the 30k models from 40k to keep those systems apart

    You might think it will be a good idea of not having a AoS skeleton kit as well as a TOW skeleton kit
    GW thinks it is better to let you by both hence why there is Khemri in one and Vampires in the other game

    Same for Goblins, one dedicated for each game so people by both if they want to play both


    Is there any reason to assume night goblins won't be in ToW? Given they're also a decade + year old set of sprues, same for spider riders.

    I don't expect those to be replaced for TOW. I could see them making a new AoSified goblin kit for Gloomspite gits that doesn't really fit the TOW aesthetic and keep selling the old night golbins for TOW]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603375.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603375.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors AOS" kits currently on sale that was originaly released for WHFB. Surely GW will want to sell these kits for TOW aswell as for AOS? It will also take them a very long time to replace them if that's the plan.

    Some form of cross-marketing seems inevitable...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603382.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603382.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603383.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603383.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
    You'll probably notice that most of those kits are for armies that arent' involved in old world.


    A lot of them are, sure. But there are still plenty of kits for the core factions like Empire, Dwarfs, Orcs & Goblins and Chaos.

    I think it'll be really interesting to see how this release unfolds. It's a unique release in many ways so I'm not expecting it to follow the usual pattern.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603392.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603392.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors IIRC TOW is set pre-steam tanks (I think?), pre magic college (which eliminates luminarks, celestial hurricanums, and battle wizards), and before Magnus the Pious and Grand Theogenist Volkmar the Grim (who started the trend with religious fanaticism in the Empire, and ergo there would be no flagellants in TOW before him). The only kit still for sale that would fit into TOW then would be the Freeguild General on Griffon kit, in theory anyway - the Imperial Zoo won't be founded for another few hundred years and existing fluff was clear that it was Karl Franz who acquired the Griffons for the zoo in the first place, so its entirely possible that they won't be included either.

    I can't really comment on the Dwarfs, Orcs & Goblins, and Chaos stuff too much. The dwarf stuff mostly strikes me as things that probably should be included in TOW, though depending on previous fluff I can see the gyrocopter/bomber being excluded or something as being too modern. Otherwise I'm not really sure what other units dwarves had available that they could build an army list around. Orcs and Goblins probably depends on how they want to approach them, there are certainly a number of legacy WHFB kits which were expunged from TOW that could be brought back for TOW exclusively ala Bretonnians and Tomb Kings, though whether thats enough to build a cohesive army is kind of unclear. I certainly wouldn't expect them to take the new orruk ard boyz as a substitute for the black orcs that they replaced, for example, so I expect the old black orc kit to make a comeback. The flipside is that the old night goblin kit is the current gloomspite shoota/stabba kit, I don't see how you have orcs and goblins without what i recall to have been the main goblin unit in the army. As far as chaos warriors are concerned, I half expect them to bring back the old chaos warrior and knight kits for TOW rather than using the new slaves to darkness kits. Even still, like half the StD range is made up of old Chaos Warriors stuff, so I don't know if they are going to cut stuff from the next StD battletome or if the chaos warrior army list in TOW will be smaller and go in a different direction?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603423.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603423.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    In terms of legacy empire stuff, from what I understand most of it doesn't fit into TOW. IIRC TOW is set pre-steam tanks (I think?), pre magic college (which eliminates luminarks, celestial hurricanums, and battle wizards), and before Magnus the Pious and Grand Theogenist Volkmar the Grim (who started the trend with religious fanaticism in the Empire, and ergo there would be no flagellants in TOW before him). The only kit still for sale that would fit into TOW then would be the Freeguild General on Griffon kit, in theory anyway - the Imperial Zoo won't be founded for another few hundred years and existing fluff was clear that it was Karl Franz who acquired the Griffons for the zoo in the first place, so its entirely possible that they won't be included either.

    I can't really comment on the Dwarfs, Orcs & Goblins, and Chaos stuff too much. The dwarf stuff mostly strikes me as things that probably should be included in TOW, though depending on previous fluff I can see the gyrocopter/bomber being excluded or something as being too modern. Otherwise I'm not really sure what other units dwarves had available that they could build an army list around. Orcs and Goblins probably depends on how they want to approach them, there are certainly a number of legacy WHFB kits which were expunged from TOW that could be brought back for TOW exclusively ala Bretonnians and Tomb Kings, though whether thats enough to build a cohesive army is kind of unclear. I certainly wouldn't expect them to take the new orruk ard boyz as a substitute for the black orcs that they replaced, for example, so I expect the old black orc kit to make a comeback. The flipside is that the old night goblin kit is the current gloomspite shoota/stabba kit, I don't see how you have orcs and goblins without what i recall to have been the main goblin unit in the army. As far as chaos warriors are concerned, I half expect them to bring back the old chaos warrior and knight kits for TOW rather than using the new slaves to darkness kits. Even still, like half the StD range is made up of old Chaos Warriors stuff, so I don't know if they are going to cut stuff from the next StD battletome or if the chaos warrior army list in TOW will be smaller and go in a different direction?


    Mostly correct although Flagellants date back to the lifetime of Sigmar himself and the steam tanks are created around 2020 so depending on the exact date are about - in fact more of them might still be working. Griffons are likely to have been tamed for a long time.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603441.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603441.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Dudeface wrote:
    Is there any reason to assume night goblins won't be in ToW? Given they're also a decade + year old set of sprues, same for spider riders.
    if GW is not doing double factions and having the same in AoS and TOW, either Night Goblins are not in TOW or are gone in AoS by the time O&G get their release in TOW
    there are 3 Goblin factions, Wood, Night and Regular Goblins, of which 1 is an AoS faction

    depends if GW want a clear cut like with HH and 40k, rather regular Goblins coming back than Night Goblins get re-packed with 2 different bases]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603454.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603454.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Gimgamgoo wrote:
    New vampires? Far too big for WFB. Who knows how much the newer models for ToW will be scaled up though.





    Is that Eddie Munster?
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603458.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603458.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    In terms of legacy empire stuff, from what I understand most of it doesn't fit into TOW. IIRC TOW is set pre-steam tanks (I think?), pre magic college (which eliminates luminarks, celestial hurricanums, and battle wizards), and before Magnus the Pious and Grand Theogenist Volkmar the Grim (who started the trend with religious fanaticism in the Empire, and ergo there would be no flagellants in TOW before him). The only kit still for sale that would fit into TOW then would be the Freeguild General on Griffon kit, in theory anyway - the Imperial Zoo won't be founded for another few hundred years and existing fluff was clear that it was Karl Franz who acquired the Griffons for the zoo in the first place, so its entirely possible that they won't be included either.

    I can't really comment on the Dwarfs, Orcs & Goblins, and Chaos stuff too much. The dwarf stuff mostly strikes me as things that probably should be included in TOW, though depending on previous fluff I can see the gyrocopter/bomber being excluded or something as being too modern. Otherwise I'm not really sure what other units dwarves had available that they could build an army list around. Orcs and Goblins probably depends on how they want to approach them, there are certainly a number of legacy WHFB kits which were expunged from TOW that could be brought back for TOW exclusively ala Bretonnians and Tomb Kings, though whether thats enough to build a cohesive army is kind of unclear. I certainly wouldn't expect them to take the new orruk ard boyz as a substitute for the black orcs that they replaced, for example, so I expect the old black orc kit to make a comeback. The flipside is that the old night goblin kit is the current gloomspite shoota/stabba kit, I don't see how you have orcs and goblins without what i recall to have been the main goblin unit in the army. As far as chaos warriors are concerned, I half expect them to bring back the old chaos warrior and knight kits for TOW rather than using the new slaves to darkness kits. Even still, like half the StD range is made up of old Chaos Warriors stuff, so I don't know if they are going to cut stuff from the next StD battletome or if the chaos warrior army list in TOW will be smaller and go in a different direction?


    I'm expecting everything to stay for the initial "ravening hordes"-lists phase of the game. What happens next is anyone's guess.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603475.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603475.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sunno wrote:
    Many of the AoS models could just be used for ToW. It wouldn't surprise me if they just start putting square and round bases in many of the kits and call it a day. Or start doing movements trays with circular insets.


    I doubt it. They've confirmed all the factions that have had major aos model revamps (lizardmen, vampire counts etc) won't be supported, so it seems they are drawing distinct lines between the model ranges. Wouldn't be surprised if they bring back the old chaos warrior kit instead of the aos one]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603476.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603476.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    Dudeface wrote:
    Is there any reason to assume night goblins won't be in ToW? Given they're also a decade + year old set of sprues, same for spider riders.
    if GW is not doing double factions and having the same in AoS and TOW, either Night Goblins are not in TOW or are gone in AoS by the time O&G get their release in TOW
    there are 3 Goblin factions, Wood, Night and Regular Goblins, of which 1 is an AoS faction

    depends if GW want a clear cut like with HH and 40k, rather regular Goblins coming back than Night Goblins get re-packed with 2 different bases


    Well, the wood (or forest?) goblins are in AoS as the spider goblins or whatever they are called. The spider riders and arachnarok spiders are part of gloomspite gits. So either they pull a cities of sigmar and cull them from the gloomspite faction to port them back to TOW or they aren't part of TOW. likewise the wolf-riding goblins that were recently added to gloomspite are vaguely "regular goblin" in style, so... I dunno.

    Personally, I kind of expect them to "fork" the model ranges for Empire/Dwarves/O&G/Chaos (and anything else that was missed). As someone else said, during the "Ravening Hordes" phase where everything is working off of pdf lists or whatever initial army compendium they might have released, I assume the models will continue to pull double duty. Of course things like Seraphon or Ogre Kingdoms which I don't expect to ever get full support in TOW will have to make due with AoS kits or the legacy-WHFB-cum-AoS kits with their pdf lists indefinitely, but I expect that as both games develop we may come to a point where the core factions in TOW that have overlap with AoS have their own separate versions of things. Gloomspite gits have their own "moonclan grots" kit, and TOW Orcs & Goblins have their own separate "nightgoblin cultists" kit or whatever, and that Slaves to Darkness have "Darkoath Chaos Warriors" while TOW has "Norscan Chaos Warriors" or something. Like, I don't expect the current steam tank or Freeguild Marshal on Griffon kits to last in AoS indefinitely, they will eventually be replaced with something, though whether they are replaced with updated versions of themselves or with new iterations on the concept (for example Cogfort and "Freeguild Marshal on a Ghurian Dracogryphe (TM)") is unclear - if its the former then I expect there to be a TOW Steamtank and Empire General on Griffon kit (which are hopefully updated from the current versions, the Griffon kit is fine but the Steam Tank is ancient) and an AOS version of the same. If its the latter then I expect that TOW will get new versions of steam tank and griffon (because its covered in things that say "Karl Franz") in time while AoS goes its own direction.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603518.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603518.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors WHFB. The ones from underworlds are all gorgeous, but all way too big and that mace wielding one is supposed to be the burly large one even within that set, using him as a guide is cherry picking the worst offender. Cado Ezechiar fits into WHFB pretty well. He's standing on a giant tactical tree, but you can clip that away if you wanted to. He is still big, about a head taller than the Isle of Blood elven mage of a similar pose, but he's almost the exact same size as the old Wood Elf Lord. He's on a taller tree than ther WE, but fits better on a 20mm square and he ranks up fine thanks to that tactical tree. Once armies go to 25mm standard bases he'd fit in even better.

    Any of the Blood Knights would work fine for a mounted vampire, especially a Blood Dragon line, and I don't own the model, but I suspect the Vampire Lord with bat-hair would fit in without too much work. There's some good conversions out of the new Vampire Blood Bowl team as well. Again, a little big, but Heroes and Lords should stand out a bit from the chaff.

    I just hope the rules are decent, my faith in current GW is pretty low now that 10th ed 40K is here.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603538.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603538.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I'm most interested to learn about how they are going to handle the Chaos Dwarf list. Not just because they're my favorite old world army, but there are several variations to them over the duration of WaFaBa. I would ultimately love a fusion of the Forgeworld Legion of Azgorh, and the Chaos Dwarf Ravening hordes list, as that would include most of the more modern (circa 90's + = modern to me ) Evil Dwarfs. Bonus points if they want to include the 'Realm of Chaos' and older stuff (bazooka, mortar, swivel gun, tower, carts, maybe the ass canon. ) , that would be fun. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603555.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603555.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603570.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603570.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Spoiler:
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    In terms of legacy empire stuff, from what I understand most of it doesn't fit into TOW. IIRC TOW is set pre-steam tanks (I think?), pre magic college (which eliminates luminarks, celestial hurricanums, and battle wizards), and before Magnus the Pious and Grand Theogenist Volkmar the Grim (who started the trend with religious fanaticism in the Empire, and ergo there would be no flagellants in TOW before him). The only kit still for sale that would fit into TOW then would be the Freeguild General on Griffon kit, in theory anyway - the Imperial Zoo won't be founded for another few hundred years and existing fluff was clear that it was Karl Franz who acquired the Griffons for the zoo in the first place, so its entirely possible that they won't be included either.

    I can't really comment on the Dwarfs, Orcs & Goblins, and Chaos stuff too much. The dwarf stuff mostly strikes me as things that probably should be included in TOW, though depending on previous fluff I can see the gyrocopter/bomber being excluded or something as being too modern. Otherwise I'm not really sure what other units dwarves had available that they could build an army list around. Orcs and Goblins probably depends on how they want to approach them, there are certainly a number of legacy WHFB kits which were expunged from TOW that could be brought back for TOW exclusively ala Bretonnians and Tomb Kings, though whether thats enough to build a cohesive army is kind of unclear. I certainly wouldn't expect them to take the new orruk ard boyz as a substitute for the black orcs that they replaced, for example, so I expect the old black orc kit to make a comeback. The flipside is that the old night goblin kit is the current gloomspite shoota/stabba kit, I don't see how you have orcs and goblins without what i recall to have been the main goblin unit in the army. As far as chaos warriors are concerned, I half expect them to bring back the old chaos warrior and knight kits for TOW rather than using the new slaves to darkness kits. Even still, like half the StD range is made up of old Chaos Warriors stuff, so I don't know if they are going to cut stuff from the next StD battletome or if the chaos warrior army list in TOW will be smaller and go in a different direction?


    When was Blackpowder discovered, because it's been removed each time War of the Beard lists were published (wihch is obviously a lot earlier), and I want to say was not present in Grudge of Drong either, but my memory is a bit hazy on that?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603586.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603586.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Baragash wrote:
    Spoiler:
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    In terms of legacy empire stuff, from what I understand most of it doesn't fit into TOW. IIRC TOW is set pre-steam tanks (I think?), pre magic college (which eliminates luminarks, celestial hurricanums, and battle wizards), and before Magnus the Pious and Grand Theogenist Volkmar the Grim (who started the trend with religious fanaticism in the Empire, and ergo there would be no flagellants in TOW before him). The only kit still for sale that would fit into TOW then would be the Freeguild General on Griffon kit, in theory anyway - the Imperial Zoo won't be founded for another few hundred years and existing fluff was clear that it was Karl Franz who acquired the Griffons for the zoo in the first place, so its entirely possible that they won't be included either.

    I can't really comment on the Dwarfs, Orcs & Goblins, and Chaos stuff too much. The dwarf stuff mostly strikes me as things that probably should be included in TOW, though depending on previous fluff I can see the gyrocopter/bomber being excluded or something as being too modern. Otherwise I'm not really sure what other units dwarves had available that they could build an army list around. Orcs and Goblins probably depends on how they want to approach them, there are certainly a number of legacy WHFB kits which were expunged from TOW that could be brought back for TOW exclusively ala Bretonnians and Tomb Kings, though whether thats enough to build a cohesive army is kind of unclear. I certainly wouldn't expect them to take the new orruk ard boyz as a substitute for the black orcs that they replaced, for example, so I expect the old black orc kit to make a comeback. The flipside is that the old night goblin kit is the current gloomspite shoota/stabba kit, I don't see how you have orcs and goblins without what i recall to have been the main goblin unit in the army. As far as chaos warriors are concerned, I half expect them to bring back the old chaos warrior and knight kits for TOW rather than using the new slaves to darkness kits. Even still, like half the StD range is made up of old Chaos Warriors stuff, so I don't know if they are going to cut stuff from the next StD battletome or if the chaos warrior army list in TOW will be smaller and go in a different direction?


    When was Blackpowder discovered, because it's been removed each time War of the Beard lists were published (wihch is obviously a lot earlier), and I want to say was not present in Grudge of Drong either, but my memory is a bit hazy on that?




    Blackpowder was present at Mordheim in 1999-2005, so by the time of the endtimes its been around at least 500 years, so yes will be present in ToW]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603591.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603591.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Baragash wrote:
    Spoiler:
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    In terms of legacy empire stuff, from what I understand most of it doesn't fit into TOW. IIRC TOW is set pre-steam tanks (I think?), pre magic college (which eliminates luminarks, celestial hurricanums, and battle wizards), and before Magnus the Pious and Grand Theogenist Volkmar the Grim (who started the trend with religious fanaticism in the Empire, and ergo there would be no flagellants in TOW before him). The only kit still for sale that would fit into TOW then would be the Freeguild General on Griffon kit, in theory anyway - the Imperial Zoo won't be founded for another few hundred years and existing fluff was clear that it was Karl Franz who acquired the Griffons for the zoo in the first place, so its entirely possible that they won't be included either.

    I can't really comment on the Dwarfs, Orcs & Goblins, and Chaos stuff too much. The dwarf stuff mostly strikes me as things that probably should be included in TOW, though depending on previous fluff I can see the gyrocopter/bomber being excluded or something as being too modern. Otherwise I'm not really sure what other units dwarves had available that they could build an army list around. Orcs and Goblins probably depends on how they want to approach them, there are certainly a number of legacy WHFB kits which were expunged from TOW that could be brought back for TOW exclusively ala Bretonnians and Tomb Kings, though whether thats enough to build a cohesive army is kind of unclear. I certainly wouldn't expect them to take the new orruk ard boyz as a substitute for the black orcs that they replaced, for example, so I expect the old black orc kit to make a comeback. The flipside is that the old night goblin kit is the current gloomspite shoota/stabba kit, I don't see how you have orcs and goblins without what i recall to have been the main goblin unit in the army. As far as chaos warriors are concerned, I half expect them to bring back the old chaos warrior and knight kits for TOW rather than using the new slaves to darkness kits. Even still, like half the StD range is made up of old Chaos Warriors stuff, so I don't know if they are going to cut stuff from the next StD battletome or if the chaos warrior army list in TOW will be smaller and go in a different direction?


    When was Blackpowder discovered, because it's been removed each time War of the Beard lists were published (wihch is obviously a lot earlier), and I want to say was not present in Grudge of Drong either, but my memory is a bit hazy on that?


    Cathay used it way back before the time of Nagash and exported some to Lahmia to fight him. Dwarfs used it but very carefully sometime later and took along time to approve it for use in the military ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603592.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603592.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors IC. This is because it wasn't there when Vlad took over Drakenhof Castle, but it is there in Mordheim.
    For Cathay though, they've had it for thousands of years. They feature in one of the Nagash books when the Tomb Kings were still alive.
    Dwarfs I've no idea, but after the War of Vengeance.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603593.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603593.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW has been changing the fluff for so long in order to service the game (or just change it to their whims) that it's always funny when people continue to get bent out of shape because they ignore something that was written in a WD supplement 30 years ago.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603594.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603594.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors WHFB 8th, just a couple hundred years. This is a good video covering the expected timeline of ToW. Basing the timeframe on the names and dates in the Warhammer Community articles and maps, ToW takes place between 2201 and 2302. WHFB was early 2500s, The End Times were 2520s. If you're familiar with Feliz and Gotrek novels, Trollslayer begins in 2495.

    Remember that Mordheim is set in 2000, so anything in a Mordheim warband list is 200~300 years old by ToW. The Empire definitely has Gunpowder by the time of ToW, and has for a while. No wizards as we know them in WHFB Empire lists, but certainly warrior-priests and self-taught mystics/hedge wizards. The timeline on Warhammer Wiki puts the dwarves giving gunpower to the Empire in 1991

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603595.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603595.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Mozzamanx wrote:
    For the Empire, I believe its some time around the year 2000 IC. This is because it wasn't there when Vlad took over Drakenhof Castle, but it is there in Mordheim.

    The optional rules for Mordheim specifically state that black powder was still relatively new and experimental to humans of the Empire and, worse, that the supplies in the ruined city were not always the best quality, or even legitimately black powder at all and offered some more detailed misfire rules for guns (left out of the core rules for simplicity’s sake) to represent this. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603599.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603599.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     skullking wrote:
    Bonus points if they want to include the 'Realm of Chaos' and older stuff (bazooka, mortar, swivel gun, tower, carts, maybe the ass canon. ) , that would be fun.


    Boar centaurs maybe too? And why you mentioned the daemon ass cannon with a tongue-out emoticon....? ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603601.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603601.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Kalamadea wrote:
    Some of the new vampires work okay in WHFB. The ones from underworlds are all gorgeous, but all way too big and that mace wielding one is supposed to be the burly large one even within that set, using him as a guide is cherry picking the worst offender. Cado Ezechiar fits into WHFB pretty well. He's standing on a giant tactical tree, but you can clip that away if you wanted to. He is still big, about a head taller than the Isle of Blood elven mage of a similar pose, but he's almost the exact same size as the old Wood Elf Lord. He's on a taller tree than ther WE, but fits better on a 20mm square and he ranks up fine thanks to that tactical tree. Once armies go to 25mm standard bases he'd fit in even better.

    Any of the Blood Knights would work fine for a mounted vampire, especially a Blood Dragon line, and I don't own the model, but I suspect the Vampire Lord with bat-hair would fit in without too much work. There's some good conversions out of the new Vampire Blood Bowl team as well. Again, a little big, but Heroes and Lords should stand out a bit from the chaff.

    I just hope the rules are decent, my faith in current GW is pretty low now that 10th ed 40K is here.


    Look, I think a retcon to TOW lore that vampires have whatever gigantism that step-on-me-vampire-lady from Resident Evil has is a valid choice.

     Kalamadea wrote:
    ToW isn't set all that long before WHFB 8th, just a couple hundred years. This is a good video covering the expected timeline of ToW. Basing the timeframe on the names and dates in the Warhammer Community articles and maps, ToW takes place between 2201 and 2302. WHFB was early 2500s, The End Times were 2520s. If you're familiar with Feliz and Gotrek novels, Trollslayer begins in 2495.

    Remember that Mordheim is set in 2000, so anything in a Mordheim warband list is 200~300 years old by ToW. The Empire definitely has Gunpowder by the time of ToW, and has for a while. No wizards as we know them in WHFB Empire lists, but certainly warrior-priests and self-taught mystics/hedge wizards. The timeline on Warhammer Wiki puts the dwarves giving gunpower to the Empire in 1991



    A lot can change in the span of 200-300 years though. Not that much of anything in WHFB necessarily changed in that time, but in terms of human history 200-300 years made the difference between burning wood for heat and light, riding horses for transport, and using bows and arrows for warfare and nuclear power, airplanes, and atomic bombs.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603607.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603607.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Dryaktylus wrote:
     skullking wrote:
    Bonus points if they want to include the 'Realm of Chaos' and older stuff (bazooka, mortar, swivel gun, tower, carts, maybe the ass canon. ) , that would be fun.


    Boar centaurs maybe too? And why you mentioned the daemon ass cannon with a tongue-out emoticon....?



    The boar centaurs are only featured pushing the carts, and tower, but I'd love to see them as a separate unit also. I used the emoticon, because ass canons are very silly. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603625.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603625.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    For Steam Tanks, they just could bend their own Background?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603627.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603627.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603638.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603638.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors FW will also make some MTO type thing with all the resin kits they had? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603657.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603657.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     BertBert wrote:
    Did they reveal yet whether all base sizes will be upscaled to the next increment or just 20->25mm?


    To my knowledge GW hasn't said anything new on the topic yet. They probably don't want to give the game away before they have their own base packs to sell, for fear of customers turning to third parties.

     Mr Morden wrote:
    Cathay used it way back before the time of Nagash and exported some to Lahmia to fight him.


    It's best not to put any stock in what the Time of Legends books have to say. The author wasn't very respectful of Nehekharan history, to put it politely.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603659.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603659.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Leonardo also created the Imperial School of Engineers in 2012. This is where we get the Steam Tanks and war wagons from. Before, blackpowder weaponry was simple cannons and handguns, but with the School of Engineers, we get repeater handguns, Hochland Longrifles, Grenade Launchers, and pigeon bombs. The First Helblaster Volleygun was made in 2253 and was an experimental weapon fitted on a Steam Tank, and was made by the same person who made the repeater handgun.

    The most important part that changes in the 2200s is the founding of the first foundry and Imperial Gunnery School. This is where the current blackpowder weapons would be better refined and come even close to dwarf guns. Malakai Makaison is even a lecturer at this institute during modern Warhammer Fantasy.

    Steam Tanks and other experimental weapons fit perfectly in the Old World. Maybe the Mechanical Horse and Helstorm are potentially made post Great War.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603667.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603667.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Geifer wrote:
     BertBert wrote:
    Did they reveal yet whether all base sizes will be upscaled to the next increment or just 20->25mm?


    To my knowledge GW hasn't said anything new on the topic yet. They probably don't want to give the game away before they have their own base packs to sell, for fear of customers turning to third parties.

     Mr Morden wrote:
    Cathay used it way back before the time of Nagash and exported some to Lahmia to fight him.


    It's best not to put any stock in what the Time of Legends books have to say. The author wasn't very respectful of Nehekharan history, to put it politely.


    Personally I feel the ToL authors did a great job of putting at least some flesh on the barest of bones that existed and given that Warhammer lore does change and shift through editions I think its as valid as anthing else.

    Nehekhara lore before them was very vey sparse.

    Agreed re the bases sizes]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603678.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603678.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     CragHack wrote:
    Do you think FW will also make some MTO type thing with all the resin kits they had?


    I imagine they'll reserve that decision until they see how popular it is, but I would love a Merwyrm.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603879.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603879.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    As gorgeous as the sculpt is, the production absolutely was terrible for the kit.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603888.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603888.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors IC, according to WFRP2E, I'm not saying they will go with it (I bloody well hope so) but it's not a deal breaker for it either.

    Vlad was decapitated by a cannon ball in Bogenhof during the Vampire Wars in both the Vampire Counts army books 7th and 8th editions (pages 15 and 12 repsectively), and Konrad army was mauled by Mortars at Kleiberstorf (VC8EP13,14,21,23. VC7EP16,17,31). The Vampire Wars was a little over 200 years before the Great War.

    Leonardo went to the Empire and worked for the Prince of Altdorf in 2012 IC in the 5th edition Dogs of War timeline, so that's also before the Great War, which TOW is supposed to be set a short spell prior. He set up the "Stephan Franz School of Engineering" in Altdorf according to White Dwarf Magaine #296 UK (page 50) and made a lot of stuffs. Some contradictory lore about the Steam Tanks thereabouts, but one of the first Steam Tanks "the Conqueror" had its hull striking in 2025 IC (Unifoms and Heraldry of the Empire page 67), and Deliverance entered service in 2035 IC. Again, well before the Great War.

    So that leaves just the Repeater Handguns & Pistols, Helstrums and Hellblasters, which were invented by Imperial Engineering School engineers, and never had a specific date of invention.

    Other things that shouldn't appear as they are in 8th -- Reiksguard Knights, Altar of Sigmar (commissioned by Magnus the Pious himself after he became Emperor, so after the Great War), and all the Colleges of Magic stuffs.

    Reiksguards are easily resolved, first as the video game Mark of Chaos simply called their Reikland Knights "Reiklander Knights" during the campaign, which is set right after Asvar Kul's defeat, GW can just invent a new Order of Knights; or, since they did get a separate kit in the 6-8th span, just let players color their own Orders. White-steel armour plus red plumes are that unique, com'on.

    Altar of Sigmar is a chariot, just say Grand Theogonists had their own mounts, and war chariots had been an option some chose to build for themselves. That Golden Girffon is just some other statue made by a prior Grand Theogonist/Arch Lector, and Volkmar is not Volkmar, easy.

    Oh, also in VC army book 8th edition page 15, Mannfred was cut down by the Stirland Count on a Griffon, so Griffon mounts are certainly not out of the question (because the Vampire Wars ended some 150 years before the Great War). There were also supposed to have Knights of the White Wolves riding giant wolves and Cockatrice-riding Knights in the lore text of the Demigryph Knights in 8th edition, long-lost to legends, but also viable to be added in TOW if FW so incline (will they? won't they? I dunno, not that invested in them either way).

    The Wizards... now, I know some are expecting Warlocks/Hedge Wizards etc., also possibly implement some of them as priests (like of Taal for Amber, Shallya for Jade), and I see that. But, there's another possibility:

    In fantasy roleplay 1st edition the Realm of Sorcery supplement, there used to be a lot of magical schools in the Empire -- to be sure the Colleges were still established by Teclis and law-codified by Magnus, but other existed for various reasons.

    The Middenheim Guild of Wizards and Alchemists was built early in the 500s IC, because Middenheimers didn't care much for Unberogen laws. This led to a "Wizards' War" during the late 1900s when many of their wizards turned out to be necromancers and daemonologists. The guild had to clean house themselves. Notably, Dieter Helsnicht was "was a great and renowned wizard who lived in the Empire city of Middenheim during the Time of the Three Emperors" in the 4th edition Undead army book, and this lore stayed with him in 5th edition and 8th edition, though whether he was known as a Wizard in 8th during his time in Middenheim was not mentioned. Cubicle 7 revived the guild in their WFRP 4th edition remaster of the original Enemy Within campaign, and honestly I think it's workable for Middenheim to openly support the guild when the Wolf Emperor was bascially independent from the electoral system anyway.

    And in Talabheim there's a separate school of magic in Realms of Sorcery, Talabheim Battle College was founded in 1361 IC by a hedge wizard (p37). 1361 is a good year because that's right after the still canonical separation of Talabheim under "Emperess" Ottillia. The original backstory of the Battle College was that Ottilia felt the pressure from the elected Emperor in Stirland and had to raise her defense. That's long rectonned, of course, since the subsequent battle between Ottila and the elected Emperor, as portrayed in "Empire At War" background book, featured no magic users on either side.

    Now, I am of the opinion the Empire shouldn't have any (official) schools of magic outside of the Colleges of Altdorf, but, the Age of War and Three Emperors was a chaotic time, the other claimaints, especially Middenheim and Talabheim, which prosecuted the Sigmarite faith, had no reason to follow Sigmar's objection against sorcery and could have easily created their own haphazard magical traditions. Human magicians, after all, existed long before the Empire. These outlaw schools can then be purged and consolidated when Teclis arrived in the Empire and conducted his teachings of the human wizards as portaryed in 6-8E Empire army book as well as WFRP2E, thus leaving one, legally recognised school of magic in the whole of Empire.

    It'd be fitting, in my opinion, that Talabheim fielding "not-Amber Wizards" in the form of Shamans, after the Taalic theme, and perhaps "not-Jade Wizards" also, being something something about Rhyea the mother goddess. Middenheim has the Shaman-theme covered with the Warrior Priests of Ulric, but they can leveage the guild to field Bright Wizards and Gold Wizards (what with alchmey and all that).

    Marienburg, it's got a college of Sea Magicks in WFRP1E: Marienburg: Sold Down the River, so after the breakdown of Countess Magritta's election (mentioned also in Mordheim in 1970s), Marienburg would be effectively a separate claimaint, the school of "Sea Magicks" could then be used to house the Celestial, Light and Grey Orders. It's sadly that this "college" did not have a department for magic until after the great war, but Cubicle 7's 4th edition Roleplay supplement Sea of Claws stated that whilst the department of sea magicks was not officially established until 2310IC, study of magic existed before Teclis' arrival. So it can still fit.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603923.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11603923.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/10/29/sunday-preview-the-squats-of-jardlan-seek-aid-in-the-underhive/]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604530.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604530.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604547.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604547.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    GW wrote:... our highly anticipated first look into rules from Warhammer: The Old World...


    Maybe we shouldn't expect too much of a "first look",]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604698.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604698.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604716.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604716.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/10/30/old-world-almanack-your-first-look-at-the-rules/]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604824.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604824.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604826.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604826.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604831.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604831.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604840.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604840.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604853.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604853.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Shows enough to showcase some differences from previous editions and get people talking. But not there isn't enough there for the neckbeards to really latch onto and complain about.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604854.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604854.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Obviously magic has changed quite a bit, but I’ll save comments for when we the bigger picture with all things wifwaf.

    Rallying sounds interesting. More or less as it was, but -1 to Ld if below half strength, and you need a snake eyes if below 25%.

    That, I think I like. Whilst we don’t know if I can overrun routed units, on the assumption that option is still there, I now have some kind of incentive not to - like the chances of a shattered unit rallying being pretty slim.

    It also sounds like it’ll distract my personal pet hate - min maxxing and multiple small units.

    Pretty sure they mentioned Pushed Back at an earlier juncture, but I’m very interested to find out more, as it sounds less like combat results are literally Make Or Break.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Utter Speculation? Pushed Back strikes me as something that could be linked to relative unit size. Like, if I have more ranks, or more wounds (to allow Ogres and the ilk some literal heft) you might end up pushed back by the difference if I win combat?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604855.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604855.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

    Utter Speculation? Pushed Back strikes me as something that could be linked to relative unit size. Like, if I have more ranks, or more wounds (to allow Ogres and the ilk some literal heft) you might end up pushed back by the difference if I win combat?


    Warmaster had literally that. The whole combat was pushed back a number of cm equal to the combat result. It would be interesting to see that make it's way into the 28mm game.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604859.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604859.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Whilst I barely dabbled with Warmaster, I’m a very old hand at Warhammer.

    If I can no longer depend on driving my beloved Chariots into and over their target unit (multiple chariots on a single charge was my style, for maximum carnage), then they’re going to be more vulnerable than ever to being bogged down. Which I don’t necessarily consider a bad thing!

    Likewise Deathstar type units may lose some appeal if there’s the same risk that despite a healthy combat win, their flanks will be exposed to a counter charge.

    Very, very intrigued.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604860.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604860.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604875.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604875.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I'm wondering if it is going to be like earlier editions of where you had a pool of magic dice and pick out how many dice you want to roll to achieve a 7+.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604878.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604878.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604883.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604883.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Fayric wrote:
    The things I pick up from this article is: they will do army specific items and spells, and the stuff dont look to be gamechangers, yet usefull.


    The horn that turns off flying seems pretty game changing. Especially since it appears that it can be used every single turn!]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604886.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604886.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604888.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604888.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     SgtEeveell wrote:
    "Casting Value: 7+"

    I'm wondering if it is going to be like earlier editions of where you had a pool of magic dice and pick out how many dice you want to roll to achieve a 7+.


    Unlikely since there's no single phase.

    Sounds more like 40k/aos. Roll 2d6, try to get casting value, maybe have dispel there that needs to roll above what caster rolled.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604890.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604890.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Rihgu wrote:
     Fayric wrote:
    The things I pick up from this article is: they will do army specific items and spells, and the stuff dont look to be gamechangers, yet usefull.


    The horn that turns off flying seems pretty game changing. Especially since it appears that it can be used every single turn!


    What did it do before - its not a new artefact.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604894.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604894.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    In the realm of 'new from the ground up' I have... unkind... thoughts about featuring a reroll 1s spell.

    Turn structure seems workable (and familiar). Return of morale is nice, though double 1s for <25% is just pointless rolling.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604897.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604897.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mr Morden wrote:
     Rihgu wrote:
     Fayric wrote:
    The things I pick up from this article is: they will do army specific items and spells, and the stuff dont look to be gamechangers, yet usefull.


    The horn that turns off flying seems pretty game changing. Especially since it appears that it can be used every single turn!


    What did it do before - its not a new artefact.


    It was a one-use item that just turned off Flying for 1 turn. Had no potential to turn off Flying for literally every turn of the game.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604899.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604899.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Rihgu wrote:


    It was a one-use item that just turned off Flying for 1 turn. Had no potential to turn off Flying for literally every turn of the game.


    It will likely be one-use again. They can't be that daft.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604900.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604900.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604902.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604902.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     BertBert wrote:
     Rihgu wrote:


    It was a one-use item that just turned off Flying for 1 turn. Had no potential to turn off Flying for literally every turn of the game.


    It will likely be one-use again. They can't be that daft.


    Well you also have to roll to make this one work whereas I assume the old one you did not I assume? GW can be that daft - I seriously doubt there has been any actual playtesting ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604903.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604903.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mr Morden wrote:
     Rihgu wrote:
     Fayric wrote:
    The things I pick up from this article is: they will do army specific items and spells, and the stuff dont look to be gamechangers, yet usefull.


    The horn that turns off flying seems pretty game changing. Especially since it appears that it can be used every single turn!

    What did it do before - its not a new artefact.
    not sure about the horn but there was a artifact that prevents flying for a turn that was one use only


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    important note is that fly looks to be with its own speed instead of using the movement stat

    so no flying might just remove the "ignore terrain" feature]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604905.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604905.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors LD do bret characters have, are there LD modifiers and so on.

    If we just go by the old rules, it equates to a 72/83% success rate on paladins/lords respectively, which seems quite strong.

    The second requirement means you want to be out of combat by the start of the next turn, which is usually what you are going for with Brets anyway. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604909.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604909.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
     Mr Morden wrote:
     Rihgu wrote:
     Fayric wrote:
    The things I pick up from this article is: they will do army specific items and spells, and the stuff dont look to be gamechangers, yet usefull.


    The horn that turns off flying seems pretty game changing. Especially since it appears that it can be used every single turn!

    What did it do before - its not a new artefact.
    not sure about the horn but there was a artifact that prevents flying for a turn that was one use only


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    important note is that fly looks to be with its own speed instead of using the movement stat

    so no flying might just remove the "ignore terrain" feature

    Fly always (at least as far back as 6th) used it's own speed instead of using the movement stat. In previous editions, it was 10-20" (depending on edition and which, and many flyers had much lower move speeds. For example, Lizardmen Terradons were M2. But with Fly, moved 10 and marched 20.

    I assume the Fly (x) rule is just a more granular version of that concept. An M2 model like a Terradon might have Fly (10) or Fly (8) or Fly (12) depending on how fast the rules writers find appropriate.

    I'm also open to the possibility that enchanted items in general have a net "one use only" restriction, which would make this item one use only.

    edit: I don't want to suggest that the stats are going to remain the same, but if it's implemented as I suspect, and as per above...
    a 72% chance each turn you're out of combat to reduce a dragon from Flying 10-20" per turn down to moving 6-12" per turn, without ability to move over units that might have been deployed ahead of it due to it's speed... is pretty painful for the dragon's player.
    Less painful if it's a 72% chance of stopping it once but still game changing.

    edit2: I'd also like people to consider how many people are going to be playing Bretonnia, as one of the major faction releases, who have both this artifact, and pretty notable flying units.
    Two armies of pegasus knights tooting horns at eachother, waiting for the opponent's toot to hit the wrong note.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604910.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604910.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    so without context, the item show of says nothing]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604912.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604912.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    E.g. the Skaven Storm Banner.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604916.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604916.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors it's a feature in modern gw games I've really come to loathe.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604935.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604935.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604937.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604937.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Voss wrote:

    In the realm of 'new from the ground up' I have... unkind... thoughts about featuring a reroll 1s spell.


    What's wrong with this kind of thing? I always figured it was a good way of just adding a *bit* more power, without the larger step of turning a 5+ to hit unit up to 4+ instead for example. Especially if you're rolling more than 10 dice for attacks in a combat.

    Promising start with the rules. I do have a giggle at people who stamp their foot and declare they're not interested in the whole thing just because of X-single-rule. (er in general, not aimed at Voss)]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604965.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604965.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     RustyNumber wrote:
    Voss wrote:

    In the realm of 'new from the ground up' I have... unkind... thoughts about featuring a reroll 1s spell.


    What's wrong with this kind of thing? I always figured it was a good way of just adding a *bit* more power, without the larger step of turning a 5+ to hit unit up to 4+ instead for example. Especially if you're rolling more than 10 dice for attacks in a combat.

    Promising start with the rules. I do have a giggle at people who stamp their foot and declare they're not interested in the whole thing just because of X-single-rule. (er in general, not aimed at Voss)


    Not sure exactly what Voss's objection is, but mine is that re-roll 1s is an incredibly bland, uninteresting effect that is already grossly overused in 40K and AOS. It's a flat 17% increase in damage output against all targets under all conditions, woohoo.

    Adding +1 to hit is more impactful, yes, but its utility varies depending on what you're hitting on to begin with, restricting it to certain conditions or certain attack types can add a layer of strategy to its use, and it doesn't involve extra rolling.

    I'm not going to leap to any conclusions on the basis of a one-off preview, but magic being showcased via the toast sandwich of gameplay effects does not bode well.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604971.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604971.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     catbarf wrote:

    Not sure exactly what Voss's objection is, but mine is that re-roll 1s is an incredibly bland, uninteresting effect that is already grossly overused in 40K and AOS. It's a flat 17% increase in damage output against all targets under all conditions, woohoo.


    GW has taken early player feedback into account and has decided to integrate mechanics to make the gameplay more active and exciting! For example, if a Bretonnian player brings a chalice to the game and shouts FOR ZE LADY their units may gain +1... etc and so on

    Surely "reroll 1s" is just ONE tool in the toolbox of game design, does it have to be some sweeping harbinger of Bad Game?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604983.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11604983.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     BertBert wrote:
     Rihgu wrote:


    It was a one-use item that just turned off Flying for 1 turn. Had no potential to turn off Flying for literally every turn of the game.


    It will likely be one-use again. They can't be that daft.


    This is the company that gave HE the Crutch of the World Dragon. Don't be so sure.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Lord Zarkov wrote:
    Also there were items previously that turned flying off all game.

    E.g. the Skaven Storm Banner.


    COULD turn flying off the whole game. IF it was activated in turn 1, and never failed the 50/50 chance of shutting off during each player's turn. Something like a 0.05% chance per game...

    Granted, waiting until later in the game to activate it does increase the odds of it still being active on the last turn (if the Skaven player activates it on the top of turn 5 there's a 6.25% chance it'll still be running at the bottom of turn 6), it's still pretty unlikely.

    Odds are it kills flying for a full turn, maybe two. Not a whole game.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605008.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605008.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Vulcan wrote:
     BertBert wrote:
     Rihgu wrote:


    It was a one-use item that just turned off Flying for 1 turn. Had no potential to turn off Flying for literally every turn of the game.


    It will likely be one-use again. They can't be that daft.


    This is the company that gave HE the Crutch of the World Dragon. Don't be so sure.

    This is the company that made entire armies untouchable except by crutch lists. Don't be so sure.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605009.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605009.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mr Morden wrote:
     Rihgu wrote:
     Fayric wrote:
    The things I pick up from this article is: they will do army specific items and spells, and the stuff dont look to be gamechangers, yet usefull.


    The horn that turns off flying seems pretty game changing. Especially since it appears that it can be used every single turn!


    What did it do before - its not a new artefact.


    One Use Only: The horn may be sounded at start of any Bretonnian turn, until the start of next Bretonnian turn, no enemy unit may fly -- they are forced to use their ground movement. Note that this may also alter the enemies' flee/pursuit distance.

    From 6th edition Army book. The new horn better be the same or it's a free pass to air control area all game.

    I hope they don't removed the Wind of Magic pool from the game, while there's not a magic phase, they can still generate the dice pools before the first phase and had to conserve spell use throughout the turn. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605012.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605012.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    ray648 wrote:
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

    Utter Speculation? Pushed Back strikes me as something that could be linked to relative unit size. Like, if I have more ranks, or more wounds (to allow Ogres and the ilk some literal heft) you might end up pushed back by the difference if I win combat?


    Warmaster had literally that. The whole combat was pushed back a number of cm equal to the combat result. It would be interesting to see that make it's way into the 28mm game.


    3rd Ed. WFB had pushback, and that predates Warmaster by a bit...

    Voss wrote:Completely new from the ground up! But also kept complexity from old editions!

    In the realm of 'new from the ground up' I have... unkind... thoughts about featuring a reroll 1s spell.

    Turn structure seems workable (and familiar). Return of morale is nice, though double 1s for <25% is just pointless rolling.


    Seeing the turn explained makes me cautiously optimistic. As long as they burn random charge distance in a fire...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605017.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605017.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Just Tony wrote:

    Seeing the turn explained makes me cautiously optimistic. As long as they burn random charge distance in a fire...


    No, I like random charges. Maybe not bugnuts random, but from both a battlefield perspective and a game perspective, its just better.
    I don't miss the old WFB days of people knowing to move 1.255" inches back to stay exactly out of charge range of their opponents and being able to sweep opponents that don't know to precisely partition and mentally map the battlefield.

    And from too many real battlefield tours, what people think of as 'perfectly flat' ground... isn't. For a unit to stay in formation and keep up (especially on the charge) is actually rather difficult and unreasonable. Its not something that can be done with precision down to fractions- a battlefield isn't a football pitch, its probably farm land or wilderness, which means uneven in unexpected places..


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     catbarf wrote:
     RustyNumber wrote:
    Voss wrote:

    In the realm of 'new from the ground up' I have... unkind... thoughts about featuring a reroll 1s spell.


    What's wrong with this kind of thing? I always figured it was a good way of just adding a *bit* more power, without the larger step of turning a 5+ to hit unit up to 4+ instead for example. Especially if you're rolling more than 10 dice for attacks in a combat.

    Promising start with the rules. I do have a giggle at people who stamp their foot and declare they're not interested in the whole thing just because of X-single-rule. (er in general, not aimed at Voss)


    Not sure exactly what Voss's objection is, but mine is that re-roll 1s is an incredibly bland, uninteresting effect that is already grossly overused in 40K and AOS. It's a flat 17% increase in damage output against all targets under all conditions, woohoo.

    Adding +1 to hit is more impactful, yes, but its utility varies depending on what you're hitting on to begin with, restricting it to certain conditions or certain attack types can add a layer of strategy to its use, and it doesn't involve extra rolling.

    I'm not going to leap to any conclusions on the basis of a one-off preview, but magic being showcased via the toast sandwich of gameplay effects does not bode well.


    Exactly this. They can't combine 'built from the ground up' with 'staple mechanic that they been overusing and plugging into every spare hole at every opportunity for the past several editions of every game they put out.'

    I also dislike the game time lost to rerolls. And as written, this is a probably a 12" to 16" bubble. Every single attack for the round in command range of the caster. (actually probably a bigger area, since its 'within' rather than 'wholly within.']]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605022.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605022.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Voss wrote:
     Just Tony wrote:

    Seeing the turn explained makes me cautiously optimistic. As long as they burn random charge distance in a fire...


    No, I like random charges. Maybe not bugnuts random, but from both a battlefield perspective and a game perspective, its just better.
    I don't miss the old WFB days of people knowing to move 1.255" inches back to stay exactly out of charge range of their opponents and being able to sweep opponents that don't know to precisely partition and mentally map the battlefield.

    And from too many real battlefield tours, what people think of as 'perfectly flat' ground... isn't. For a unit to stay in formation and keep up (especially on the charge) is actually rather difficult and unreasonable. Its not something that can be done with precision down to fractions- a battlefield isn't a football pitch, its probably farm land or wilderness, which means uneven in unexpected places..


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     catbarf wrote:
     RustyNumber wrote:
    Voss wrote:

    In the realm of 'new from the ground up' I have... unkind... thoughts about featuring a reroll 1s spell.


    What's wrong with this kind of thing? I always figured it was a good way of just adding a *bit* more power, without the larger step of turning a 5+ to hit unit up to 4+ instead for example. Especially if you're rolling more than 10 dice for attacks in a combat.

    Promising start with the rules. I do have a giggle at people who stamp their foot and declare they're not interested in the whole thing just because of X-single-rule. (er in general, not aimed at Voss)


    Not sure exactly what Voss's objection is, but mine is that re-roll 1s is an incredibly bland, uninteresting effect that is already grossly overused in 40K and AOS. It's a flat 17% increase in damage output against all targets under all conditions, woohoo.

    Adding +1 to hit is more impactful, yes, but its utility varies depending on what you're hitting on to begin with, restricting it to certain conditions or certain attack types can add a layer of strategy to its use, and it doesn't involve extra rolling.

    I'm not going to leap to any conclusions on the basis of a one-off preview, but magic being showcased via the toast sandwich of gameplay effects does not bode well.


    Exactly this. They can't combine 'built from the ground up' with 'staple mechanic that they been overusing and plugging into every spare hole at every opportunity for the past several editions of every game they put out.'

    I also dislike the game time lost to rerolls. And as written, this is a probably a 12" to 16" bubble. Every single attack for the round in command range of the caster. (actually probably a bigger area, since its 'within' rather than 'wholly within.'


    Good for you. Random charge length is still a non-starter for me. If it's in, then I'm sticking with 6th. Period. It's one of 5 mechanics that will make TOW D.O.A. to me if it's incorporated.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605037.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605037.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Voss wrote:

    No, I like random charges. Maybe not bugnuts random, but from both a battlefield perspective and a game perspective, its just better.
    I don't miss the old WFB days of people knowing to move 1.255" inches back to stay exactly out of charge range of their opponents and being able to sweep opponents that don't know to precisely partition and mentally map the battlefield.
    and how does random charges change that?
    so you just stay 0,01" out of range whatever the maximum number of the random roll is and be able to sweep opponents who don't know or are just don't care with sometimes someone doing a risky roll and gets the maximum for little effect

    of course it helps players because they can blame the dice for the outcome of the game
    which is something I dislike in general, I want to play against the opponent and not against the game and not need lucky rolls that decide the outcome

    so if random charge ranges are there, I am out as well]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605052.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605052.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    It would however make more sense if all movement was random, rather than just charges. If the uneven ground makes it impossible to determine an average movement over an abstract time frame, then it should also make marching/walking impossible to determine as well.


    If you wanted to add a little crunch, you could actually combine the two.

    Your optimal charge distance is 2xM, but you roll 2D6 to see how far you move anyway.

    For each point over your 2xM the dice roll is, you lose an attack from being disordered and over stretching your line, but you can still move that far and complete a charge anyway.

    Notice that anything with a movement of 6+ can't do this, because their speed is so high they will never have an issue.

    So basically foot troops get a 'slogging' effect, while everything else is fine.

    You could also just do 2xM+1D6 for all charges, if you really need randomness without it being crippling.

    Random charges generate failed charges a lot, and I'm not sure if that's a valuable aspect of the game to have nor not.


    It might be worth having a threat aura around all regiments - their M in inches.

    If an enemy regiment is within their threat after they've charged and failed, it tests for fear or something similar.

    The effect of a regiment bearing down on you doesn't go away if they don't reach your line within the aloted amount of time.



    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605057.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605057.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Voss wrote:
    For a unit to stay in formation and keep up (especially on the charge) is actually rather difficult and unreasonable.


    My ancestor General Upton would disagree. His charges were so organized they were extremely effective. I mean ... He did threaten to shoot you if you didn't keep up or fired your musket too early... But his charges were so awesome that one of them is immortalized in art and poetry. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605066.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605066.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors You either like them and want them or don't, 500 words won't change someone with the opposite opinion...

    For the record I hope they're in ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605071.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605071.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW games im actually really interested in ToW as its the game of my childhood that i wanted to play, had a few models but just could not afford anything near an army. Im sure the rules will be pretty similar or an enhancement of the old fantasy ruleset. Like most GW games the rules will be good to good enough.

    What im more interested in is what is "the package" going to be. Costs for models, model overlap between ToW and AoS, cost of the app (if any), will all the model rules be in the app or will I have to buy a app, subscription AND physically buy a sodding book like 40K? Will GW finally move away from a requirement for physical army books like the rest of the damn world. etc etc. How will the game be actually implemented and rolled out? Once I know that then I can solidify my interest (or not).]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605105.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605105.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors IMO really pretty graphically, with all its borders and vignettes.

    They are also reusing a lot of classic WFB art, which while perhaps lazy, is fine for me because it's good art.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605110.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605110.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605116.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605116.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW going digital only - they make so much income off their books. Plus for a lot of people miniature games are a way to disconnect from the online.

    GW aren't a small firm, they can afford to invest into a wave of printed books and expect them to sell. It's not like smaller wargame firms where a book is a major cost for them that is a huge financial risk if it fails to sell ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605117.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605117.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     RustyNumber wrote:
    Voss wrote:

    In the realm of 'new from the ground up' I have... unkind... thoughts about featuring a reroll 1s spell.


    What's wrong with this kind of thing? I always figured it was a good way of just adding a *bit* more power, without the larger step of turning a 5+ to hit unit up to 4+ instead for example. Especially if you're rolling more than 10 dice for attacks in a combat.

    Promising start with the rules. I do have a giggle at people who stamp their foot and declare they're not interested in the whole thing just because of X-single-rule. (er in general, not aimed at Voss)


    Slows game down for one.

    Look at 40k where despite increased lethality the game kept going SLOWER as the rerolls were being added...

    If games take longer despite models being removed faster there's something wrong and large part of that was all the damn rerolls.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605122.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605122.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605130.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605130.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors

    So far I just hope they haven't restricted their design space too much with limiting spells to 6 categories]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605131.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605131.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Voss wrote:
    In the realm of 'new from the ground up' I have... unkind... thoughts about featuring a reroll 1s spell.


    I had similar thoughts.

    To try and stab at my issue. The problem isn't an activatable reroll 1s aura as a gameplay mechanic. Although we know from past experience this is something which starts small and then spreads everywhere.

    My issue is more this this strange... language of design.
    Sort of have a similar view on 10th edition 40k.
    "We are designing a whole new game/new edition". But the reality is... not really. They are sort of taking something that was written in say Spanish - and now writing it in Italian. Its different - but not so different. I'm not sure they've thought everything through as a result.

    Its that challenge of translation. There's conveying the poetry of phrases in another language, versus going through word by word in a dictionary. In my view a good translation has to be a thing in itself.

    Now clearly this issue will vary. Some would have been happy if GW had taken the 6th edition rulebook and said "that's it, those are the rules." I'm not so sure myself - but I just hope the rules have been considered in a holistic sense. I'm less concerned for example about the Bretonnian Horn being overpowered - and more this idea of "this was in the game, so it has to be in ours. Just stick it in and move on to the next issue."]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605139.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605139.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    SU-152 wrote:
    Units can be Driven Back, that's very very interesting. I hope it is like in Warmaster.


    The more it's like Warmaster the less I'm interested. Driven Back was taken from 3rd Ed. WFB.




    Weird, I'm getting the strangest sense of deja vu...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605145.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605145.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Clicked on the wrong thread.

    But I will say my interest in Old World is kind on the down low until I see some unique Marienburg units for the Empire for the civil war they got going on]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605164.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605164.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Cataphract wrote:
    A Feast to Remember

    https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/10/31/dear-reader-the-honour-of-your-presence-is-requested-at-a-feast-most-magnificent/


    FEC goes in AoS, surely?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605166.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605166.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors FEC connection.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605180.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605180.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors AoS / Mordheim way (roll 2 die and add their result, if the total is equal or higher than Casting Value, then the spell is passed - here, article done ).

    I'm not even sure that it's a question of efficiency, to be honest. Magic phase in old Battle was a mini game in its own, and I believe that was a big part of the charm of Warhammer Battle in comparison to other game systems. I still remember the versions where we were using cards for winds of magic (when you may not even cast a spell in your turn because you draw only dispel cards and didn't have a rule allowing you to use them as power cards ).

    Well, I played enough AoS and Mordheim games so that it's not a big deterrent to me for TOW, but a page has definitively been turned here.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605202.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605202.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sarouan wrote:
    Removal of magic phase is a bit sad. I guess we'll go the AoS / Mordheim way (roll 2 die and add their result, if the total is equal or higher than Casting Value, then the spell is passed - here, article done ).

    I'm not even sure that it's a question of efficiency, to be honest. Magic phase in old Battle was a mini game in its own, and I believe that was a big part of the charm of Warhammer Battle in comparison to other game systems. I still remember the versions where we were using cards for winds of magic (when you may not even cast a spell in your turn because you draw only dispel cards and didn't have a rule allowing you to use them as power cards ).

    Well, I played enough AoS and Mordheim games so that it's not a big deterrent to me for TOW, but a page has definitively been turned here.


    Funny, I wasn’t a fan of the magic phase for the same reason you liked it. It felt too much like “ok, we’ll stop playing this wargame to play a card game/dice game over here” at times.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605224.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605224.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    MaxT wrote:

    Funny, I wasn’t a fan of the magic phase for the same reason you liked it. It felt too much like “ok, we’ll stop playing this wargame to play a card game/dice game over here” at times.


    Well, it was certainly more relevant if both sides have sorcerers or they don't involve dwarves.

    I'm not saying it was without flaws, I understand why they removed it. I'm just saying it was one of the characterizations of Warhammer Battle, and now it's gone for good. That's why I'm sad to see it away.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605244.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605244.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors FW would be available to order on the GW Site, and now both websites have merged lol

    I know FW resin isn’t everyone’s favorite material, but I wonder if easier access to FW models will improve some people’s morale ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605314.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605314.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors 2d6 per spell casting method or if each wizard generates their own power dice at the start of your turn and you use those dice to cast powers throughout the turn.

    Hopefully it's the later which would add a lot of decision making to the turn. Wizard level might even cap how many dice you can throw at a spell too, like that to be included.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605323.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605323.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    Voss wrote:

    No, I like random charges. Maybe not bugnuts random, but from both a battlefield perspective and a game perspective, its just better.
    I don't miss the old WFB days of people knowing to move 1.255" inches back to stay exactly out of charge range of their opponents and being able to sweep opponents that don't know to precisely partition and mentally map the battlefield.
    and how does random charges change that?
    so you just stay 0,01" out of range whatever the maximum number of the random roll is and be able to sweep opponents who don't know or are just don't care with sometimes someone doing a risky roll and gets the maximum for little effect

    of course it helps players because they can blame the dice for the outcome of the game
    which is something I dislike in general, I want to play against the opponent and not against the game and not need lucky rolls that decide the outcome

    so if random charge ranges are there, I am out as well


    Fair. If random charge ranges are gone, I'm out and will stick with 8th. I HATED the quarter-inch just outside charge range shuffle that consumed so many of my sixth and seventh edition games. And it made it hard for new players to get in. They'd play a few games, get smoked because they couldn't figure out the thin line between in and out of charge range and lose horribly, and quit.

    Or they'd learn one of many cheats people used to pre-measure charge distance, which is no better.

    Sure, you can stay just outside max charge range. I move up to where your infantry needs a 10 to charge, but my cavalry needs a 7. Go ahead, risk that charge. If you make it I'll be the first to congratulate you. Back up 3" just to stay out of charge range? Go ahead, surrender the center of the map and watch me surround you. It's about learning how to manage probability and risk... something real generals also had to deal with.

    But far be it from me to tell you that the way I prefer to play is the way you SHOULD play. One of us will like TOW, one of us won't, and that's okay.

    (Barring the fairly high probability GW will break TOW sufficiently that NEITHER of us like it... )


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Overread wrote:
    I can't see GW going digital only - they make so much income off their books. Plus for a lot of people miniature games are a way to disconnect from the online.

    GW aren't a small firm, they can afford to invest into a wave of printed books and expect them to sell. It's not like smaller wargame firms where a book is a major cost for them that is a huge financial risk if it fails to sell


    I CAN see them putting the rules online, and charging hundreds of dollars for a 'collector' quality rulebook... that becomes obsolete every couple years so they can sell another one.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605333.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605333.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Random charges are mostly hated by players who want "skill" to matter (they're usually tournament-friendly and like to think of themselves as good players) while they are liked by players who don't care about that kind of stuff (and understand that games using dice have a "luck factor" that is impossible to remove unless you remove dice in all of their mechanisms, anyway).

    Besides, when people talk about "skill" in wargames like Battle or KoW, it's usually more about list building than strategy and tactics. It's mostly there so that petulant and arrogant elitist players feel like they're above the "filthy casuals". If they're out, I say good riddance - that's something I never missed when Battle died and all these "That Guy" tournament players went to other systems to plague them.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605349.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605349.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors 40k and AoS consistently without that extra skill level.

    I personally hope random stays. As a dwarf player in the days of yore I HATED fixed charges and the change in 8th (for that) brought me so much joy.

    As for the rules previewed so far I'm liking what I'm seeing. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605365.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605365.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors WHFB scene indeed quit overnight the moment random charge ranges came in.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605369.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605369.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I also have no love for the 'I'm going to put my models juuuuuust far enough away that you 100% can't charge me but I can 100% charge you in my next turn' routine. And forbidding pre-measuring has never been a viable solution or, frankly, a good mechanic to begin with.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605379.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605379.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    The local toxic WHFB scene indeed quit overnight the moment random charge ranges came in.


    Yeah. I even offered that we could agree that units were 0,2 inches out of charge range if he would just fething place his units, but no. It was as if some players enjoyed masturbating the movement of their trays 8,2 inches away from yours twenty thirty little shuffles before being satisfied.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605392.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605392.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    The local toxic WHFB scene indeed quit overnight the moment random charge ranges came in.
    YMMV, here the toxic tournament players were the only ones that stayed]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605407.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605407.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sarouan wrote:
    Removal of magic phase is a bit sad. I guess we'll go the AoS / Mordheim way (roll 2 die and add their result, if the total is equal or higher than Casting Value, then the spell is passed - here, article done ).

    I'm not even sure that it's a question of efficiency, to be honest. Magic phase in old Battle was a mini game in its own, and I believe that was a big part of the charm of Warhammer Battle in comparison to other game systems. I still remember the versions where we were using cards for winds of magic (when you may not even cast a spell in your turn because you draw only dispel cards and didn't have a rule allowing you to use them as power cards ).

    Well, I played enough AoS and Mordheim games so that it's not a big deterrent to me for TOW, but a page has definitively been turned here.


    Yeah same boat, I liked the magic mini game in Warhammer! Cards, dice pool, whatever, I liked them all for what they were! My main armies where Tomb Kings and Vampires, so magic was pretty central for both of them so I'm quite curious to see how it turns out for those armies.

    Liking the look of the preview so far overall, seems rather enjoyable. I'm still in ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605410.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605410.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sarouan wrote:
    Kodos is a Kings of War fanatic, so he's out with or without random charges anyway.

    Random charges are mostly hated by players who want "skill" to matter (they're usually tournament-friendly and like to think of themselves as good players) while they are liked by players who don't care about that kind of stuff (and understand that games using dice have a "luck factor" that is impossible to remove unless you remove dice in all of their mechanisms, anyway).

    Besides, when people talk about "skill" in wargames like Battle or KoW, it's usually more about list building than strategy and tactics. It's mostly there so that petulant and arrogant elitist players feel like they're above the "filthy casuals". If they're out, I say good riddance - that's something I never missed when Battle died and all these "That Guy" tournament players went to other systems to plague them.


    Nope.

    What people disliked about the random charge distance in 8th edition was the massive fluctuation of results it could give. 2D6 + movement, was ludicrous, for a movement 4" unit/model ot could have a charge anywhere from 6" to 16"

    If it had of been 2D3 + Movement, or Movement + 1D6, it wouldn't have been as badly received I imagine.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605411.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605411.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     stonehorse wrote:
    What people disliked about the random charge distance in 8th edition was the massive fluctuation of results it could give. 2D6 + movement, was ludicrous, for a movement 4" unit/model ot could have a charge anywhere from 6" to 16"


    You had a 5/6 chance of making a 9" charge, and a 1/6 chance of making a 14" charge. Bell curve plus a fixed value meant fairly predictable results, but with no guarantees unless you were at 6" or 38% of maximum possible charge range.

    It actually creates about the same fluctuation as a single die would. With D6+Move, the 5/6 chance is 5" and the 1/6 chance is 10", so the spread between those values is the same as the 2D6 system, and the guaranteed-success distance of 4" is comparable at 40% of the maximum range. It's just shorter average charge range than march speed, which might be odd.

    Maybe the occasional snake eyes or boxcars gave the impression that 2D6 was highly variable, but in practice it really wasn't. Compared to a single-die system, you get more extreme extremes but more consistent outcomes around the middle of the range.

    I wouldn't mind 2D3+Move, but then it'd be back to being predictable enough for higher-Move armies to carefully position to be virtually guaranteed to get the charge.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605425.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605425.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     catbarf wrote:
     stonehorse wrote:
    What people disliked about the random charge distance in 8th edition was the massive fluctuation of results it could give. 2D6 + movement, was ludicrous, for a movement 4" unit/model ot could have a charge anywhere from 6" to 16"


    You had a 5/6 chance of making a 9" charge, and a 1/6 chance of making a 14" charge. Bell curve plus a fixed value meant fairly predictable results, but with no guarantees unless you were at 6" or 38% of maximum possible charge range.

    It actually creates about the same fluctuation as a single die would. With D6+Move, the 5/6 chance is 5" and the 1/6 chance is 10", so the spread between those values is the same as the 2D6 system, and the guaranteed-success distance of 4" is comparable at 40% of the maximum range. It's just shorter average charge range than march speed, which might be odd.

    Maybe the occasional snake eyes or boxcars gave the impression that 2D6 was highly variable, but in practice it really wasn't.

    I wouldn't mind 2D3+Move, but then it'd be back to being predictable enough for higher-Move armies to carefully position to be virtually guaranteed to get the charge.


    However that doesn't remove the point that it is a sizeble difference between add 2" and 12" to Movement 4. Yes the average will be 7, which from what I remember people positioned their units with that in mind to try and stay out of a units charge range. I'm all for a bit of randomness as it makes things fun and interesting, not against that. Just the way it was handles felt sloppy. Same with KoW nerve test, 2d6 has too big a range of potential results.

    2D3 is random, but not too random.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605429.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605429.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Hulksmash wrote:
    Personally I think the managing risk from random charges is a big part of being a good player. You can say it "reduces skill" to have it but it's weird that the same people end up on top in 40k and AoS consistently without that extra skill level.

    I personally hope random stays. As a dwarf player in the days of yore I HATED fixed charges and the change in 8th (for that) brought me so much joy.

    As for the rules previewed so far I'm liking what I'm seeing.


    I've always been of the opinion that the charge distance should be randomized, but not necessarily fully randomized. It really should be something like M+D6" or M+2D3", so you have a guaranteed charge distance, plus the possibility to charge further, rather than just being straight 2D6" where you are completely at the mercy of the dice or M+2d6" where you're potentially running across the entire table on a good roll.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Damn, ninja'd]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605432.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605432.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors FLGS staff working GW nights twice a week. The guy did it to me personally, I hit him with one turn of Curse of Arrow Attraction with 4 Repeater Bolt Throwers and 2 20 man Archer units peppering his highest value unit. He picked up the pace from there on out.


    Past that? I never even saw it pulled off in tournaments.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605549.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605549.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors 2d6 to all move values is a bit stupid.

    Then the slow dwarf infantry can on a good roll charge way further than the fast light cavalry could on a bad roll. If it were M + 1d3 for each increment of Move value above X" and/or having it so cavalry and other supposedly fast units get to roll 3 dice and discard the lowest and then the reverse for some slower units. Mix and match the modifiers and also have the terrain work in a similar way with adding or removing a die or flat values.

    You could then make it so something have a decent movement stat but due to size or how the unit is organized/equipped they don't really charge much further. Like a big monster with a large stride might have a Move of 8" but it can't really move much faster so it gets an extra 3d6 remove the highest for charge distance. It might not charge very far often but even its minimum charge is quite decent due to Base Movement 8". Then you might have a smaller monster that have 6" or 7" normal movement but charge the normal 2d6 or it might even have a bonus to represent how it crazily charges forward and rolls 3d6 and discard the lowest die. It would in some games charge a shorter distance than the larger monster but most of the time it would charge further even though it normally moves slower.

    I think random charges is fine in a game with very limited amount of turns and the IGOUGO structure. Just don't make them too random. MESBG who I play the most have movement = charge distance and you are allowed to measure all the time. But that game have low lethality and games usually have many more turns than WFB or 40k has as well as both sides fight simultaneously so if there are no cavalry it doesn't have that much of an impact on who got the charge. It all depends on how the game is built. Both fixed or random can work.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605557.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605557.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    For cavalry, one horse may became scarred by some sudden screech and veered into a neighboring rider, forcing the whole unit to pivot and reform; a monster can suddenly become unruly and or distracted, a mistake in a necromancer's incantation led a block of skeletons to stop in their tracks, etc..

    Hell, I vaguely remember an explaination given for the random charge distance in a past edition, 40K or fantasy, was that the order was not interpreted equally across the unit, some charge, others stand their ground, so they had to reform.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605572.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605572.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors 2D6 distance?
    or weapon range, command range and more important spells?

    if unforseen only happens on a charge but everything else is always exactly as planned, not is not a very good argument]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605580.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605580.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     stonehorse wrote:

    What people disliked about the random charge distance in 8th edition was the massive fluctuation of results it could give. 2D6 + movement, was ludicrous, for a movement 4" unit/model ot could have a charge anywhere from 6" to 16"

    If it had of been 2D3 + Movement, or Movement + 1D6, it wouldn't have been as badly received I imagine.


    Yeah, these people disliked the lack of control on the charge sub-phase when random charges were in - suddenly they couldn't hinder the way their opponents tried to charge them as easily as before, and they were upset by it. Who are they ? Those at the top, be it local or tournaments, who knew the game good enough to use these tricks.

    Of course, with random charges as the way there were, there are other ways to prevent enemy charges and there were other tactics / strategies used by those who stayed. Those ? They were the true "good players", because they adapted to the new rules instead of blaming them for being "bad".

    Besides, when you play dwarves as I did too with different editions of Warhammer Battle, you knew that before random charges were introduced, charges initiated by melee dwarf units were...let's say very short (pun intended ). That's why the only way to play dwarves before random charges was putting as many shoots as you could. With V8...melee dwarf lists were actually playable thanks also to them.

    In general, before random charges, infantry always struggled to charge in comparison to cavalry, monster and all of the stuff that was 4+ in movement. Reason why the variancy is "so high" is precisely so that they were more par to par between them.


    Klickor wrote:
    Adding 2d6 to all move values is a bit stupid.


    In Battle V8, there were rules for cavalry to roll 3d6 and keep the 2 best ones. With their high movement added, it was really hard to escape their charges other than being out of their view. And there were other rules as well, so it's not as "constant" as you may it look like.

    If random charges are in for TOW (and I think they will be, they serve a lot of purpose despise what some from KoW say here), I expect there will be some rules like that for varied types of units.


     kodos wrote:
    yeah, but why is marching than not a random 2D6 distance?
    or weapon range, command range and more important spells?

    if unforseen only happens on a charge but everything else is always exactly as planned, not is not a very good argument



    Because charges were the heart of Warhammer Battle, the center of the main action. That's why charge denial is frustrating for players, and random charges are a tool to make it more difficult on purpose. While there was shooting and magic, they were more here to support the main assault and Battle, in opposite to 40k, was at the core a close combat game.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605584.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605584.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    yeah, but why is marching than not a random 2D6 distance?
    or weapon range, command range and more important spells?

    if unforseen only happens on a charge but everything else is always exactly as planned, not is not a very good argument


    I'v marched in a para-military bootcamp and I can tell you simply that a march is not the same as a charge; marching or even trotting is meant to be ordered, marching order will be given and the command has to make sure the formation has heard the order clearly before doing so. A march in 8th edition WHFB rulebook is known as "going at the double", which is not a sprint, but a short of fast walk with the knees raised (unlike walking casually) where the formation remain intact and still leave enough time for everyone to figure out where they are and where they need to be.

    Doing a charge is almost never taught to us part-timers because it's very difficult -- it's done on very short notice since it's meant to cover long distances in a very short amount of time. The professionals sprint when they charge. I've never witnessed a whole squad charging that remain in formation, and that's during demonstrations in our training, precisely because of how difficult it is. Now multiply the number of sprinting individuals by about 20 and stretch their the length from their ranks over 100 feet, and see if there's time for everyone to hear the order to charge at the same time.

    For that matter, weapon range is well represented by ballistic skill: when the misfire of a gun or an arrow falling short can be blame on the skill of the user, therefore a part of the user's ballistic skill as an archer might have misjudged the distance, or a gunner failed to compensate for the wind etc. Spells fail because the caster cannot command the wind, that's represented in the randomness to cast a spell. As for command range, if there are to be commands like in 40K, they should require a command roll of some sort, you get no disagreement from me there.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605590.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605590.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sarouan wrote:

    Because charges were the heart of Warhammer Battle, the center of the main action. That's why charge denial is frustrating for players, and random charges are a tool to make it more difficult on purpose. While there was shooting and magic, they were more here to support the main assault and Battle, in opposite to 40k, was at the core a close combat game.

    and marching denial was a thing as well

    if you remove charge denial and replace it with a random roll, because "charges can be unforseen" why is march denial not just removed and not replaced by random march roll because "marches can be unforseen"

    and magic or shooting was everything but "just support", it was just hated by the people if you build a list that would win without any melee action just by magic or shooting

    this is just a bad argument and not very consistent]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605594.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605594.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    You can like that or dislike that, but the real world difference between advancing or charging will make no difference. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605598.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605598.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lcmiracle wrote:
    I've never witnessed a whole squad charging that remain in formation, and that's during demonstrations in our training, precisely because of how difficult it is. Now multiply the number of sprinting individuals by about 20 and stretch their the length from their ranks over 100 feet, and see if there's time for everyone to hear the order to charge at the same time.
    well, compared to reality it depends on the time and army as well as the level you look too

    a group, a company or a battalion formation will be looked differently for charges in order, but for the larger group you want them to arrive in order at the same time and not just one by one and pulling that off is not easy (like Napoleonic French infantry used a different formation for charges because it was easier that way while the cavalry trained that multi regiment charged and was one of the few that could to that which made them so much more effective the larger their numbers was)

    Warhammer never really made that a thing in game that there are wild charge or charges in bad order versus charges in good order
    but if the random roll for distance should be that, than Orcs need to roll something different than Elves, like the Orcs doing 2D6, while Elves have double movement + 2D3
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605600.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605600.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    Sarouan wrote:

    Because charges were the heart of Warhammer Battle, the center of the main action. That's why charge denial is frustrating for players, and random charges are a tool to make it more difficult on purpose. While there was shooting and magic, they were more here to support the main assault and Battle, in opposite to 40k, was at the core a close combat game.

    and marching denial was a thing as well

    if you remove charge denial and replace it with a random roll, because "charges can be unforseen" why is march denial not just removed and not replaced by random march roll because "marches can be unforseen"

    and magic or shooting was everything but "just support", it was just hated by the people if you build a list that would win without any melee action just by magic or shooting

    this is just a bad argument and not very consistent


    Instead of talking of "bad arguments", try to understand why the mechanism was introduced instead.

    Armies based on magic and shooting were indeed hated because before random charges, it was easy to play them and destroy the opponent enough before he gets into close combat. With random charges, the 1st players to moan about it were shooting list players...precisely because random charges put the battle sooner into their defensive lines, before their shoots make too much damage in opponent melee units to make them irrelevant. So they had to think more about other tactics / strategy to counter that instead of just "putting the guns as far as possible from the enemy army and shoot shoot shoot".

    You just don't know what you're talking about because you never cared playing Warhammer Battle V8. You're a KoW player, where charges are still double the move characteristic. So of course you're a fervent disliker of random charges and try to make it look bad no matter what...you're one of the guys who left.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605602.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605602.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605608.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605608.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    We are told it's because they didn't have enough customers, but perhaps the leaving of people like kodos was the reason their customer base dried up in the first place.

    Now that's just correlation, and there are many arguments thrown around about what the causes were.

    But I lost interest in wfb from that edition as well, for a range of reasons, like ASF elves and random charges.

    The speed charges could generate at 2d6+m was just ridiculous. The Average human charge increased from the previous edition by +~50% and maxed at 200% their original distance, while the minimum was still 75% their original charge speed. Dwarf charge speeds increased on average by 66%, maxing at 250% their original speed. Im a dwarf player and that was just ridiculous.


    and it completely changed the tempo of the game, making the tactical manoeuvre aspect of the game less relevant and turning the game into a scrumfest.

    Maybe gw thinks nostalgia can paper over the design issues they will have by trying to bring back rules from THE VERY EDITION THAT KILLED IT, but I hope they go back to earlier editions for their design inspiration.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605613.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605613.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    so you agree that "realism" is a bad argument and that a 2-12" variation in movement is too much



    We're talking about a game with wizards, dragons and goblins. "Realism" was never the point of it.

    That's why shooting weapons have such a low range ("in reality, a bow shoots further than that !"), why heroes can have more than one wound, why regiments are so low in number of models ("But one miniature can represent dozens of the same soldier !" "yeah, it's a BS excuse for people not wanting to accept their armies are not representative of the "reality" - otherwise, they would have played 10mm scale instead")...must I keep on ? I think not.

    Compromises are always made when you design a game. If "realism" is in the way of the fun, I think it's a good thing to put it away.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605615.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605615.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sarouan wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    Sarouan wrote:

    Because charges were the heart of Warhammer Battle, the center of the main action. That's why charge denial is frustrating for players, and random charges are a tool to make it more difficult on purpose. While there was shooting and magic, they were more here to support the main assault and Battle, in opposite to 40k, was at the core a close combat game.

    and marching denial was a thing as well

    if you remove charge denial and replace it with a random roll, because "charges can be unforseen" why is march denial not just removed and not replaced by random march roll because "marches can be unforseen"

    and magic or shooting was everything but "just support", it was just hated by the people if you build a list that would win without any melee action just by magic or shooting

    this is just a bad argument and not very consistent


    Instead of talking of "bad arguments", try to understand why the mechanism was introduced instead.

    Armies based on magic and shooting were indeed hated because before random charges, it was easy to play them and destroy the opponent enough before he gets into close combat. With random charges, the 1st players to moan about it were shooting list players...precisely because random charges put the battle sooner into their defensive lines, before their shoots make too much damage in opponent melee units to make them irrelevant. So they had to think more about other tactics / strategy to counter that instead of just "putting the guns as far as possible from the enemy army and shoot shoot shoot".

    You just don't know what you're talking about because you never cared playing Warhammer Battle V8. You're a KoW player, where charges are still double the move characteristic. So of course you're a fervent disliker of random charges and try to make it look bad no matter what...you're one of the guys who left.



    Unless, of course, you guff your charge roll and don't have distance, buying more of a chance for the enemy to shoot you. This goes both ways, honestly.

    The mechanic was introduced because of the lethality introduced by 7th and the relative version of 40K at the time, both of which adopted random charges in their next edition rather than fixing the lethality issue. The number of people who've gone back to 6th is on par with the number of people who stayed with 8th or took on one of the fanmade editions. There's a reason for that. It isn't just kodos and the KOW players who dislike random charges.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605616.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605616.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Just Tony wrote:


    Unless, of course, you guff your charge roll and don't have distance, buying more of a chance for the enemy to shoot you. This goes both ways, honestly.

    The mechanic was introduced because of the lethality introduced by 7th and the relative version of 40K at the time, both of which adopted random charges in their next edition rather than fixing the lethality issue. The number of people who've gone back to 6th is on par with the number of people who stayed with 8th or took on one of the fanmade editions. There's a reason for that. It isn't just kodos and the KOW players who dislike random charges.


    Of course it's not just them. Mind you, leaving for an older edition or another game entirely is, in the end, the same : you left instead to adapt.

    BTW random charges has absolutely nothing to do with lethality introducted by 7th, because it's also in 8th you have the infamous "fight on 2 ranks by default" mechanism - and the hordes. And stubborn command tests if you have more ranks than the opponent.

    That's the true lethality, and why shooting armies had to have melee units to delay / deal with the key opponent units instead of just putting shooting units as much as they can. The difference is that we got into close combat action sooner (and that you enjoy fighting with your units more rather than winning with static combat bonus and make the enemy automatically flee because of them even though you still have numbers with you).

    But you wouldn't know that, since you didn't play V8 and just kept playing older editions.

    You may indeed not like some game mechanisms and that is fine, but you can't deny their purpose.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Hellebore wrote:

    Maybe gw thinks nostalgia can paper over the design issues they will have by trying to bring back rules from THE VERY EDITION THAT KILLED IT, but I hope they go back to earlier editions for their design inspiration.


    V8 didn't kill Battle. End Times did, quite litterally.

    The reason why Battle was slowly losing players (more a question of difficulty to recruit new blood, players were more veterans than anything else who leave naturally as they keep aging ) was more to do with lack of scenarios with different victory conditions, a bloated game system that is not easy to learn when you're totally new, no real "beginner friendly" entry level (it wasn't as structured as now with AoS, the way lists were built were very rigid even in comparison to 40k at the time, which is partly why it was always more popular than Battle), a very elitist (and arrogant) competitive scene with top players with "scummy behaviour" more rewarded than the fairplay ones that didn't give a good reputation to the game in the end...A lot of factors than just "random charges", in the end.

    Here with TOW, it's clearly for nostalgia first - but as with Horus Heresy, the environment should be less focused on the competitive scene and more about building your collection and having fun with the same nostalgia / collection and/or narrative driven players, so it should be a bit friendlier for newcomers. Even though it's clearly targetting the veterans and GW certainly doesn't have the same sale expectations than for Warhammer Battle at its Golden Age - TOW is just a Specialist Game project, in the end.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605617.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605617.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sarouan wrote:


    The reason why Battle was slowly losing players (more a question of difficulty to recruit new blood, players were more veterans than anything else who leave naturally as they keep aging ) was more to do with lack of scenarios with different victory conditions, a bloated game system that is not easy to learn when you're totally new, no real "beginner friendly" entry level (it wasn't as structured as now with AoS, the way lists were built were very rigid even in comparison to 40k at the time, which is partly why it was always more popular than Battle), a very elitist (and arrogant) competitive scene with top players with "scummy behaviour" more rewarded than the fairplay ones that didn't give a good reputation to the game in the end...A lot of factors than just "random charges", in the end.


    The reason Battle was slowly losing players was that you needed a crazy amount of money just to get started which i don't think will be better now (along with the "no beginner friendly" entry level you mentioned). Enjoy the nostalgia and the new models because not much will be different after the release hype goes away. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605633.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605633.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Hellebore wrote:
    It must be said however, that wfb was literally killed the edition random charges were introduced...

    We are told it's because they didn't have enough customers, but perhaps the leaving of people like kodos was the reason their customer base dried up in the first place.

    Now that's just correlation, and there are many arguments thrown around about what the causes were.

    But I lost interest in wfb from that edition as well, for a range of reasons, like ASF elves and random charges.

    The speed charges could generate at 2d6+m was just ridiculous. The Average human charge increased from the previous edition by +~50% and maxed at 200% their original distance, while the minimum was still 75% their original charge speed. Dwarf charge speeds increased on average by 66%, maxing at 250% their original speed. Im a dwarf player and that was just ridiculous.


    and it completely changed the tempo of the game, making the tactical manoeuvre aspect of the game less relevant and turning the game into a scrumfest.

    Maybe gw thinks nostalgia can paper over the design issues they will have by trying to bring back rules from THE VERY EDITION THAT KILLED IT, but I hope they go back to earlier editions for their design inspiration.


    Personally I wouldn't put too much blame on 8th ed. For all its flaws, 7th ed wasn't much better. People like to recall the overpowered army books as the thing that ruined 7th ed, but at its core it was an edition of cavalryhammer. The combination of fixed charge range and inability to fight back if you took enough casualties to match your front rank skewed the game heavily towards fast, high lethality units. Playing a mixed army was pretty much pointless if you went up against a cavalry spam army. I saw a lot of matchups back then that led to short, unsatisfying games that were decided during deployment. People around here were not particularly thrilled to play such games (or, well, to lose such games in the case of some). In typical GW fashion 8th didn't fix the source of that frustration but instead just shuffled things around and added all new sources of frustration.

    In my opinion the demise of Fantasy isn't even primarily to be blamed on the latter editions of the game themselves but the environment in which players dropped out and sales plummeted. Alongside 8th ed existed 6th ed 40k that had some controversial additions and holds the record for shortest edition lifespan yet, getting replaced after only twenty three months, and 7th ed 40k that we all know turned into a complete trainwreck that bled players and reinforced a long downwards trend in GW's profits. That trend started in the Aughts after the LotR bubble burst. I find it likely that the death of Fantasy was decided on when GW realized that cutting costs and slimming down their operation wasn't going to turn things around. That may or may not have happened before there even was any sales data on 8th ed Fantasy.

    The discussion of fixed versus random charge ranges is kind of pointless, much like looking at any other rule that may have been picked for The Old World in isolation (or rather in ignorance of the larger framework). Both approaches have their pros and cons, and depending on how they interact with other rules, are perfectly capable or ruining an edition of Warhammer even if they worked in older editions or different games. There's nothing inherently wrong with using rules from the edition during which Warhammer Fantasy was killed, even rules which are considered to be controversial, as long as their function is adequately analyzed and put into context of the whole rule set, with changes and added restrictions if need be.

    I'd be less worried about what edition a rule first appeared in and more how it all fits together in the new rule set. Which isn't something we can conclusively guess at with what little information we have so far.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605634.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605634.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors WHF lost a lot of players during late 7th Edition with the bad army books

    Community rules made some stay but most quit with 8th as the "this time" promise not going off as the problems the new rules solved were replaced by new problems with the new army books

    hardly and new players startet with 8th and the majority switched to 40k

    minor details in the rule had less influence in general as it was the total package
    bad balance, no updates, high models prices and increased amount of models needed

    and for TOW it will be the same, minor details won't make it a success but the overall package will]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605635.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605635.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sasorijap wrote:
    Sarouan wrote:


    The reason why Battle was slowly losing players (more a question of difficulty to recruit new blood, players were more veterans than anything else who leave naturally as they keep aging ) was more to do with lack of scenarios with different victory conditions, a bloated game system that is not easy to learn when you're totally new, no real "beginner friendly" entry level (it wasn't as structured as now with AoS, the way lists were built were very rigid even in comparison to 40k at the time, which is partly why it was always more popular than Battle), a very elitist (and arrogant) competitive scene with top players with "scummy behaviour" more rewarded than the fairplay ones that didn't give a good reputation to the game in the end...A lot of factors than just "random charges", in the end.


    The reason Battle was slowly losing players was that you needed a crazy amount of money just to get started which i don't think will be better now (along with the "no beginner friendly" entry level you mentioned). Enjoy the nostalgia and the new models because not much will be different after the release hype goes away.



    I think the key thing to realise is that there isn't one golden goose egg of "this was the sole reason why" the game started to dwindle. There were multiple aspects that built up over time and for some people there were different reasons why they left/reduced. The issue was once it started happening they started snowballing and once there was a general trend that became an issue in itself.


    Big rosters of models to get started was certainly one aspect and a big barrier to new people getting into the game or even just existing people starting a new army. The rules didn't really work until 1K points and even then you really wanted 1.5 or 2 K points for it to really shine for most armies. 500 point fights were strange and could be very wonky or just dull because you had so little on the table.

    But that alone wasn't it; the lack of new players in any volume meant that not only were big point counts where the game worked best; but they were also what everyone who was around had. So anyone new had an uphill struggle to get into the game and "join everyone else". Lack of newbies; lack of a suitable smaller game format; lack of marketing that there was a smaller game format - all these things compounded and made worse the fact that the core game rules required/worked best with big armies.


    But there were loads of other things too.

    It's the same as how Privateer Press fell from their height. Again not one single thing but multiple happening all within the same timespan and building on each other.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605639.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605639.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Which turned out to be a blessing as I could witness the AoS absurdity without a stake in it ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605640.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605640.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605642.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605642.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mr Morden wrote:
    Maybe the discssion on what killed previous WFB and charge distances could move to its own thread AGAIN....


    You're right. We should make space for the discussion that The Old World might be Warmaster scale after all. We haven't had that in a while. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605645.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605645.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sarouan wrote:
    Kodos is a Kings of War fanatic, so he's out with or without random charges anyway.

    Random charges are mostly hated by players who want "skill" to matter (they're usually tournament-friendly and like to think of themselves as good players) while they are liked by players who don't care about that kind of stuff (and understand that games using dice have a "luck factor" that is impossible to remove unless you remove dice in all of their mechanisms, anyway).

    Besides, when people talk about "skill" in wargames like Battle or KoW, it's usually more about list building than strategy and tactics. It's mostly there so that petulant and arrogant elitist players feel like they're above the "filthy casuals". If they're out, I say good riddance - that's something I never missed when Battle died and all these "That Guy" tournament players went to other systems to plague them.


    When battles are won or lost on how subtly you can cheat the 'no premeasuring charges' rule, I'm out.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Just Tony wrote:
    I'll say it again: I saw the whole 1/8" push thing once in the entirety of the time I played 6th, and I was FLGS staff working GW nights twice a week. The guy did it to me personally, I hit him with one turn of Curse of Arrow Attraction with 4 Repeater Bolt Throwers and 2 20 man Archer units peppering his highest value unit. He picked up the pace from there on out.


    Past that? I never even saw it pulled off in tournaments.


    YOU saw it once. I saw it ever darn game. It sounds like your local meta was way less WAAC than mine was.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Sarouan wrote:

    Besides, when you play dwarves as I did too with different editions of Warhammer Battle, you knew that before random charges were introduced, charges initiated by melee dwarf units were...let's say very short (pun intended ). That's why the only way to play dwarves before random charges was putting as many shoots as you could. With V8...melee dwarf lists were actually playable thanks also to them.

    In general, before random charges, infantry always struggled to charge in comparison to cavalry, monster and all of the stuff that was 4+ in movement. Reason why the variancy is "so high" is precisely so that they were more par to par between them.


    Agreed. Fixed charge ranges force dwarves to either lose 100% of the time, or play pure gunline at the back of the map. From there, you might as well roll a D6 each, higher result wins, and move on to more interesting games.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605668.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605668.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors WHFB die" is a long running discussion that gets the thread locked. But FWIW I think the issue is that GW didn't care that the game was an imbalanced mess, and players were increasingly unwilling to put up with it. I'd say the rot was really there in 7th (not that 6th was perfect). People talk about the Daemons army book - but frankly DE and VC weren't dramatically better from the perspective of everyone else. The gulf between the haves and have-nots was awful, and I think 8th was just a good time for people to give up the ghost. (And frankly, that yawning gap continued through the years of unabated codex creep). 6th and 7th 40k (frankly late 5th) were also suffering similar problems - and this is why games like Warmahordes and later X-Wing boomed. Representing meaningful competition to GW that hasn't really existed before or since.

    Complaints about charging can get threads locked too I guess - but as we see rules for the new edition, it is I guess vaguely relevant.

    I think a key factor that needs to be remembered is other changes in 8th rather than just random charges.

    Before 8th the charge was the be-all and end all. You charged, you got to fight first, you wiped the front rank, they couldn't fight back. That is fundamentally different to a system where fighting first is down to initiative, and models step up to fight.

    The former made infantry blocks basically worthless except as a redirector (being fodder for most cavalry - or any higher M units). The second however encouraged the 30-50 man great weapon deathstars, that could take a hit and then delete... well, basically anything except other deathstars.

    I hope GW have spent some time trying to square this circle. Blocks of say 20~ infantry, with champions, standard bearers and musicians, should be the core of the game. There should be some sort of cap on going dramatically higher - but also rules so they don't just get run over by other stuff.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605690.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605690.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors AoS*, as a way to deal with some of the death star stuff and go back to having a meaningful army and now unkillable chaff that will bog you down all game


    * ok I feel dirty now]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605691.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605691.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    JimmyWolf87 wrote:
    Nothing too dramatic there to be honest beyond magic being separated out between phases. Game structure seems to be at least tacitly very similar to latter editions. It's when we get into the meat of combat rules that it'll get particularly interesting.


    I'm desperate and impatient to see the rules of the shooting phase!!!]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605693.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605693.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors However I think infantry was not quite so useless in 6th and 7th because a 20 man squad could hold its ground unless a breaker (at least 6 knights with warbanner or more) hit them.
    They were good for board control and fighting other board controlers or light units off.

    Also one problem about 8th: 40+ man squads of super expensive stuff. Who wanted to start a dwarfs army knowing he had to buy 40 hammerers for 160 euros alone?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605694.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605694.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Astmeister wrote:
    I agree with you on most of your list @Tyel.
    However I think infantry was not quite so useless in 6th and 7th because a 20 man squad could hold its ground unless a breaker (at least 6 knights with warbanner or more) hit them.
    They were good for board control and fighting other board controlers or light units off.

    Also one problem about 8th: 40+ man squads of super expensive stuff. Who wanted to start a dwarfs army knowing he had to buy 40 hammerers for 160 euros alone?


    Useless is perhaps a bit of an exaggeration - and we've all seen knights fluff their small number of attacks on the charge.
    But from memory (and we are talking 15ish years) most competitive lists in late 7th had a lot of fast stuff because infantry were just too slow/vulnerable. Which also brought about the 8th edition table flip. A lot of people didn't like discovering an almost all cav army bought specifically to meet 7th's meta was now bad in 8th.

    Especially when as you said you now needed very expensive bricks of infantry.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605712.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605712.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605721.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605721.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors Which editions of WHFB sucked or were the best, what killed it or people moving to other systems are evil is not the topic. Knock it off. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605734.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605734.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Tyel wrote:
    Representing meaningful competition


    This is debatable. In terms of Revenue, GW basically remained flat from around 2005/2006 through to 2016. Yes, there were up and down years but revenue didn't meaningfully change during that time and set around 120 million GBP +/- ~10-15 million. During the timeframe you're really discussing, from around 2009-2016, GW peaked at around 135 million in 2013 only to decline to 118 million in 2016, which is a delta of about 17 million, but was only about 7 million less than it was in 2009. This is statistically insignificant and happened during a global financial crisis, etc. Whatever "competition" WMHDs and X-Wing may have provided GW at the time amounted for very little. If you take the view that the market did not grow during this time frame and those revenue losses were the result of competitors grabbing market share, then all of GW's competitors combined would have been pulling no more than maybe 20-25 million GBP/yr at the time.I can tell you from first hand knowledge that X-Wings best year of sales was around that mark on its own (25-30 million USD) so clearly thats not the case and the market actually grew a bit to accommodate rival games, but the point stands that if GWs biggest "competitor" was only about 15% as large as itself, then it wasn't really that much of a competitor.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Oops, didn't see Ingtaers message before submitting, my bad :(]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605736.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605736.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    No premeasurement is an absurdity from the 80s. I do not care if charges are fixed or random as long as measurement is allowed at any time.

    It's a wargame, my sight/guess skill shouldn't matter.

    How are 40k and AoS in that matter nowadays??]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605768.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605768.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    SU-152 wrote:
    I really really hope premeasurement is allowed in ToW.

    No premeasurement is an absurdity from the 80s. I don not care if charges are fixed or random as long as measurement is allowed at any time.

    It's a wargame, my sight/guess skill shouldn't matter.

    How is 40k and AoS in that matter nowadays??


    If fixed charges are a thing, it gets really dull with premeasuring, since you exist with perfect knowledge of when and where you will be eating a charge, which is basically saying you are choosing to give up a huge advantage.

    So unless there's a compromise and there's some kind of incentive or defense for eating charges, it'll be a poor situation imo.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605770.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605770.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors gw games like over decade ago. AT has it i think. 40k/aos doesn't. Aos has never had it, 40k had...looong time ago.

    Doubt it comes back and good riddance. It was only making life hard for noobs in their 1st games. About as skillfull or interestinj as stealing from baby


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Dudeface wrote:
    SU-152 wrote:
    I really really hope premeasurement is allowed in ToW.

    No premeasurement is an absurdity from the 80s. I don not care if charges are fixed or random as long as measurement is allowed at any time.

    It's a wargame, my sight/guess skill shouldn't matter.

    How is 40k and AoS in that matter nowadays??


    If fixed charges are a thing, it gets really dull with premeasuring, since you exist with perfect knowledge of when and where you will be eating a charge, which is basically saying you are choosing to give up a huge advantage.

    So unless there's a compromise and there's some kind of incentive or defense for eating charges, it'll be a poor situation imo.


    Even without only noobs on 1st games wouldn't know are they in range or not. Too many tricks and easy math.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605771.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605771.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    tneva82 wrote:
    Pre-measuring ban died in most gw games like over decade ago. AT has it i think. 40k/aos doesn't. Aos has never had it, 40k had...looong time ago.

    Doubt it comes back and good riddance. It was only making life hard for noobs in their 1st games. About as skillfull or interestinj as stealing from baby


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Dudeface wrote:
    SU-152 wrote:
    I really really hope premeasurement is allowed in ToW.

    No premeasurement is an absurdity from the 80s. I don not care if charges are fixed or random as long as measurement is allowed at any time.

    It's a wargame, my sight/guess skill shouldn't matter.

    How is 40k and AoS in that matter nowadays??


    If fixed charges are a thing, it gets really dull with premeasuring, since you exist with perfect knowledge of when and where you will be eating a charge, which is basically saying you are choosing to give up a huge advantage.

    So unless there's a compromise and there's some kind of incentive or defense for eating charges, it'll be a poor situation imo.


    Even without only noobs on 1st games wouldn't know are they in range or not. Too many tricks and easy math.


    Well yes, if you know how far apart forces are at the start, track how far every unit moves, track out the angles and whack out the pythagoran theories and a scientific calculator then yes, you can get within 0.5" easily on your 2nd game.

    Come on. It's not hard to get it to the point your opponent has to gamble on a 2" window of inaccuracy.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605785.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605785.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    SU-152 wrote:
    I really really hope premeasurement is allowed in ToW.

    No premeasurement is an absurdity from the 80s. I do not care if charges are fixed or random as long as measurement is allowed at any time.

    It's a wargame, my sight/guess skill shouldn't matter.

    How are 40k and AoS in that matter nowadays??


    Pre-measurement is the norm in all current GW games. I expect TOW will be the same.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605817.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605817.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605830.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605830.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I'd prefer some kind of alternation or more indepth reaction system than just stand and shoot or run away.

    Also, simplified movement mechanics. Wheeling and turning are important for the game to retain its tactical regimental feel, but they need to be easy to use and simple to explain, but not too reduced in detail either.

    Hopefully they remove ASF as a standard rule, and only have it as a charging ability.

    And especially not having the elves use it for an army wide rule...


    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605850.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605850.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Hellebore wrote:
    And especially not having the elves use it for an army wide rule...


    They need to address the imbalance in WS vs S/T in the mechanics. ASF Elves was another (the 3rd at least) pass at dealing with the fact that Elves being costed as elite models but dying like Goblins doesn't work out on the tabletop.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605896.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605896.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Dudeface wrote:Well yes, if you know how far apart forces are at the start, track how far every unit moves, track out the angles and whack out the pythagoran theories and a scientific calculator then yes, you can get within 0.5" easily on your 2nd game.

    Come on. It's not hard to get it to the point your opponent has to gamble on a 2" window of inaccuracy.


    I do carpentry in my spare time and spent half a decade in a previous job identifying parts with lengths between 6" and 20" by sight. I am no savant but I can reliably guess sub-24" ranges on the tabletop down to about half an inch. I'm far from the only person who can do that.

    At an old hobby shop, the owner had made some really awesome fantasy tables out of interlocking foam tiles. Problem was, each tile was exactly one foot across and it was impossible to hide the borders. Guess how often the Empire and Dwarf guys missed with their cannons.

    It's really not fun for anyone involved when a skill so irrelevant to wargame generalship- and so easy to cheat, even just through sequencing- can win or lose a game. I consider it a wargaming atavism on the level of using a pellet gun and ship silhouettes to resolve your naval wargame impact locations, and would much rather see a game system address the problem of overly deterministic positioning through some other means.

    Fortunately, there are quite a few alternatives that achieve friction/uncertainty through game mechanics rather than obfuscating distances.

    Baragash wrote:
     Hellebore wrote:
    And especially not having the elves use it for an army wide rule...


    They need to address the imbalance in WS vs S/T in the mechanics. ASF Elves was another (the 3rd at least) pass at dealing with the fact that Elves being costed as elite models but dying like Goblins doesn't work out on the tabletop.


    Horus Heresy 2.0 revised the ancient WS table to have a much stronger effect, so I think there's a distinct possibility that they'll do the same for TOW.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605908.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605908.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    At an old hobby shop, the owner had made some really awesome fantasy tables out of interlocking foam tiles. Problem was, each tile was exactly one foot across and it was impossible to hide the borders. Guess how often the Empire and Dwarf guys missed with their cannons.

    That kind of table was really common everywhere I played, and I wandered a lot during that period. 'Guess' weapons were precision tools that could only be stopped by misfires.

    And especially not having the elves use it for an army wide rule...

    It was really fun when the high elves first got it and dark elves... didn't. They got the cut and paste point changes instead and some units dropped to stupid cheap values, but could be cheesed out with massive numbers of attacks (for the time- nothing compared to more recent editions). It was one of huge tipping points for a lot of people that GW really didn't have a clue about the impact of their design decisions. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605910.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605910.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Didn't help that each army after that were even stronger than the High Elves. Dark Elf death stars you couldn't do anything about. Massive fearless undead units you couldn't break before they were back at previous size due to magic and then the Demons.

    Sure I could play pure Tree spirits or 100% archers to help in some of the matchups but both of those play styles were really boring. I still have like 40 Glade Guards that are like 60% painted that I never finished when I quit WFB. Not fun to paint so many and when I realised I would have even less fun playing with them it dawned upon me that WFB wasn't my game anymore. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605948.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605948.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors ASL and ASF are such weird rules, especially when that just straight up overrides initiative most of the time. All Elves were already initiative 5 at minimum, is that ASF even that significant? I mean I guess if you have a character at I5 going up against a block of Elf spearmen it'd be pretty big, otherwise it just seem like army-wide tax to me.

    Would if changing Great Weapons to -2 I instead would have been better than ASL. The mean Initiative is already 3 so that'd make it the same as ASL, while the Elves still strikes at the average I3.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605952.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605952.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Dudeface wrote:
    Come on. It's not hard to get it to the point your opponent has to gamble on a 2" window of inaccuracy.


    2"? You can't be off by 2" when shooting a stone thrower 5 feet diagonally across the table. The margin of error when setting up 12" charges was around the thickness of a piece of paper for experienced players.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605955.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605955.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lcmiracle wrote:
    ASL and ASF are such weird rules, especially when that just straight up overrides initiative most of the time. All Elves were already initiative 5 at minimum, is that ASF even that significant? I mean I guess if you have a character at I5 going up against a block of Elf spearmen it'd be pretty big, otherwise it just seem like army-wide tax to me.

    Would if changing Great Weapons to -2 I instead would have been better than ASL. The mean Initiative is already 3 so that'd make it the same as ASL, while the Elves still strikes at the average I3.


    I can't see people paying elite points (eg 15-16pts) for an I3 T3 Sv5+ Elf, they'll just take Phoenix Guard.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605961.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605961.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lcmiracle wrote:
    ASL and ASF are such weird rules, especially when that just straight up overrides initiative most of the time. All Elves were already initiative 5 at minimum, is that ASF even that significant? I mean I guess if you have a character at I5 going up against a block of Elf spearmen it'd be pretty big, otherwise it just seem like army-wide tax to me.

    Would if changing Great Weapons to -2 I instead would have been better than ASL. The mean Initiative is already 3 so that'd make it the same as ASL, while the Elves still strikes at the average I3.


    It was absolutely significant, since they were swinging before charging units. High Elves could generally out-maneuver their foes (which was frequently critical in WHFB), but since it didn't matter if they got charged or not, who cares? Charging Swordmasters with anything less than heavy cavalry was virtually-guaranteed suicide, and even the heavy cavalry had about a 50/50 shot.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605964.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605964.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    Dudeface wrote:
    Come on. It's not hard to get it to the point your opponent has to gamble on a 2" window of inaccuracy.


    2"? You can't be off by 2" when shooting a stone thrower 5 feet diagonally across the table. The margin of error when setting up 12" charges was around the thickness of a piece of paper for experienced players.


    OK, so clearly you're in favour of premeasuring and I assume random charges?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605974.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605974.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Manfred von Drakken wrote:
     lcmiracle wrote:
    ASL and ASF are such weird rules, especially when that just straight up overrides initiative most of the time. All Elves were already initiative 5 at minimum, is that ASF even that significant? I mean I guess if you have a character at I5 going up against a block of Elf spearmen it'd be pretty big, otherwise it just seem like army-wide tax to me.

    Would if changing Great Weapons to -2 I instead would have been better than ASL. The mean Initiative is already 3 so that'd make it the same as ASL, while the Elves still strikes at the average I3.


    It was absolutely significant, since they were swinging before charging units. High Elves could generally out-maneuver their foes (which was frequently critical in WHFB), but since it didn't matter if they got charged or not, who cares? Charging Swordmasters with anything less than heavy cavalry was virtually-guaranteed suicide, and even the heavy cavalry had about a 50/50 shot.


    If I recall at least in 8th ed Always Strike First provided re-rolls to hit if your initiative was higher than the enemy's. That went down well with everyone who didn't play High Elves. That stuff was introduced around the time when the current 40k and AoS designers took over.

    This is probably one of those things to dread when looking at what modern flavor The Old World rules might include. GW has misstepped a lot in the last decade with re-roll orgies and dumping initiative for strike first/normal/last systems. If the Old World designers are into that kind of nonsense even to a fraction of the main studio guys, there'll be precious little hope for the rule set.

    Hopefully it won't be long until the next article and they don't draw out the four phases over the next three months.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605982.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605982.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:

    This is debatable.


    I agree with you on that basis - but I'm not really talking competitive as businesses. I'm talking competitive as in "you walk into a FLGS and see people playing it." You see communities flourishing - and attracting people to start playing (and collecting) X rather than a GW game. I feel the period around 2010-2017 was different in that respect with what came before - or after. But clearly its subjective, and may just be my experience rather than universal.

    Anyway, its ancient history.

    I feel the ASF stuff runs into a wider problem of "my guys are more elite than your guys". To a degree this applies to every GW game, but I think it was especially acute in WHFB because the stats are sort of one-dimensional. Stuff chops or gets chopped. I'm not sure how they resolve that (or even if they try) in TOW - but I feel it was the cause of a lot of army book creep, and as said player dissatisfaction.

    Its arguably the same issue of fixed charges. Sure, positioning my high elves in 9"~ of your M4" units, so I can simultaneously execute 3 charges in my next turn and destroy most of your army feels very good "for me". But it probably feels kind of lame and awful "for you".
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605986.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605986.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Dudeface wrote:
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    Dudeface wrote:
    Come on. It's not hard to get it to the point your opponent has to gamble on a 2" window of inaccuracy.


    2"? You can't be off by 2" when shooting a stone thrower 5 feet diagonally across the table. The margin of error when setting up 12" charges was around the thickness of a piece of paper for experienced players.


    OK, so clearly you're in favour of premeasuring and I assume random charges?


    I liked it both ways, actually, but I agree with folks saying guessing range is a skill with a steep, frustrating learning curve for beginners while not really having anything to do with tactical ability. I have derived great satisfaction from declaring 36.5" and hitting the enemy unit champion right between the eyes with a stone thrower, but that probably doesn't justify the extreme barrier to winning for new folks, or folks with some sort of spacial thinking impairment.

    And probably an overwhelming majority of non-GW games in the market currently have premeasuring with fixed charge ranges, so I don't think premeasuring is intrinsically tied to random ranges.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605989.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605989.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors d6 and add that distance to your number with a 6 being a misfire. Ensures there is some variability such as wind or something else. That or go the 40k route. Roll 2d6 and the scatter, the shot scatters the distance rolled less your BS. Then it always scatters unless you roll a hit.

    I generally liked 8th edition - the changes I would have made revolved around unit sizes. I think the requirements for units should have been min 5 models per rank but you cannot be deeper than your frontage. That would have stopped the shananigans skaven and gobbos where they had 5 models on the front but were 10 ranks deep and nigh unbreakable. Want 10 ranks, have a unit that has a frontage of 10. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605991.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605991.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    Dudeface wrote:
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    Dudeface wrote:
    Come on. It's not hard to get it to the point your opponent has to gamble on a 2" window of inaccuracy.


    2"? You can't be off by 2" when shooting a stone thrower 5 feet diagonally across the table. The margin of error when setting up 12" charges was around the thickness of a piece of paper for experienced players.


    OK, so clearly you're in favour of premeasuring and I assume random charges?


    I liked it both ways, actually, but I agree with folks saying guessing range is a skill with a steep, frustrating learning curve for beginners while not really having anything to do with tactical ability. I have derived great satisfaction from declaring 36.5" and hitting the enemy unit champion right between the eyes with a stone thrower, but that probably doesn't justify the extreme barrier to winning for new folks, or folks with some sort of spacial thinking impairment.

    And probably an overwhelming majority of non-GW games in the market currently have premeasuring with fixed charge ranges, so I don't think premeasuring is intrinsically tied to random ranges.


    How would you introduce a disincentive for a charge Mexican stand off? As the rules for fantasy were, the boon from charging was generally enough to ensure you want to be the one getting it off. To have premeasuring and fixed charges they need to shift that ratio of risk/reward so that either charges are less relevant or there's sufficient reward for being the person who knows they're going to take the charge.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605994.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605994.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    so either get in the flanks to remove passive boni or get multiple units in and the risky part is to get those off without being charged yourself ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605996.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11605996.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Dudeface wrote:

    How would you introduce a disincentive for a charge Mexican stand off? As the rules for fantasy were, the boon from charging was generally enough to ensure you want to be the one getting it off. To have premeasuring and fixed charges they need to shift that ratio of risk/reward so that either charges are less relevant or there's sufficient reward for being the person who knows they're going to take the charge.


    Well, like I said, pretty much every game that exists today has fixed ranges with premeasuring. This includes Kings of War and Conquest, as far as I know, both highly tournament-oriented rulesets, one vanilla IGOUGO, one semi-random alternating. I've not detected any claims that their charging mechanics are broken. And as far as I know, in all regiment systems, including WHFB regardless of edition, most of the time you wanted to be the one getting (frontally) charged.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606002.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606002.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors Yolo charging to get first charges off isn’t great for the game.

    If you also have units with scouting and forward positioning in traditional slower army’s you also create some balance to movement there.
    And also utilising counter charging tactics and ability’s.
    It’s such a important part of the game that it should get the extra time.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606004.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606004.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Dudeface wrote:


    How would you introduce a disincentive for a charge Mexican stand off? As the rules for fantasy were, the boon from charging was generally enough to ensure you want to be the one getting it off. To have premeasuring and fixed charges they need to shift that ratio of risk/reward so that either charges are less relevant or there's sufficient reward for being the person who knows they're going to take the charge.


    This (erroneous) notion appears so often that I don't even need to write an answer again, I can just copy and paste it:


    My main wargame is Warmachine and there threat ranges are static, but the game gives players a deep toolbox of things they can do to lessen the impact of the opponent having a few inches of threat range advantage. Baiting, jamming, sacrificing, redirecting, screening, using terrain, buffing/debuffing, clever scenario play ... all depending on players' decisions and choices. In my opinion it makes for a much more engaging game than a one where you just generate a random number to arbitrarily tell you whether what you are attempting to do makes any sense or not.

    And even with Warmachine having both premeasuring and fixed ranges it is not my experience that threat range means everything, there are so many ways to counter that, despite the all or nothing nature of WM alpha strike (target destroyed on the charge is the default result) and the importance of scenario.


    http://momentofclarity.eu/constance1-vs-asphyxious3-polish-team-championship-round-4/

    I like this report as an example. Despite oppressive threat ranges and going first the Cryx player has his army carefully corralled, contained and taken apart by a much slower enemy. He loses because tactics, not because he didn't roll enough for his charges.


    My first fix for this in WFB would be to reduce differences between Mv of units. If in 6th Bretonnians could fail their charge due to not guessing range correctly and still be safe from an infantry countercharge something is just off.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606007.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606007.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    Dudeface wrote:

    How would you introduce a disincentive for a charge Mexican stand off? As the rules for fantasy were, the boon from charging was generally enough to ensure you want to be the one getting it off. To have premeasuring and fixed charges they need to shift that ratio of risk/reward so that either charges are less relevant or there's sufficient reward for being the person who knows they're going to take the charge.


    Well, like I said, pretty much every game that exists today has fixed ranges with premeasuring. This includes Kings of War and Conquest, as far as I know, both highly tournament-oriented rulesets, one vanilla IGOUGO, one semi-random alternating. I've not detected any claims that their charging mechanics are broken. And as far as I know, in all regiment systems, including WHFB regardless of edition, most of the time you wanted to be the one getting (frontally) charged.


    KoW has a small amount of poorly implemented random charging.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606011.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606011.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Baragash wrote:

    KoW has a small amount of poorly implemented random charging.


    +D3" for "berserker" units, which is about 1 per faction]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606013.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606013.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    The good point is we'll get GW's final answer for TOW in a few more articles.

    Whatever they decide, people really interested in TOW will play as the rules say - the others will just go back to their perfect game system, convinced their view is the only right one.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606047.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606047.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sarouan wrote:
    Here we go again with random charges vs fixed charges.

    The good point is we'll get GW's final answer for TOW in a few more articles.

    Whatever they decide, people really interested in TOW will play as the rules say - the others will just go back to their perfect game system, convinced their view is the only right one.


    We already said, this is not the place. Start another thread for range guessing and charges. I know there's no real news but that's OK let this thread lie fallow for a bit and debate rules philosophies in the Fantasy Forum.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606067.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606067.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Astmeister wrote:
    I agree with you on most of your list @Tyel.
    However I think infantry was not quite so useless in 6th and 7th because a 20 man squad could hold its ground unless a breaker (at least 6 knights with warbanner or more) hit them.
    They were good for board control and fighting other board controlers or light units off.

    Also one problem about 8th: 40+ man squads of super expensive stuff. Who wanted to start a dwarfs army knowing he had to buy 40 hammerers for 160 euros alone?


    Someone who knew about the existence of Mantic Dwarves.

    I'll grant you, many people don't like the aesthetic, but they ARE cheap enough to buy in volume.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606069.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606069.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/10/30/old-world-almanack-your-first-look-at-the-rules/]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606076.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606076.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     triplegrim wrote:
    Why is compulsory movement after charges and movement? Shouldnt you be fleeing at the end of the turn or at the least at the beginning?

    https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/10/30/old-world-almanack-your-first-look-at-the-rules/


    Regular movement is after compulsory movement. This is how it's worked as far as I've played.

    First you declare charges, then you do flee movements/other compulsory stuff, then you get to pick your remaining movements. Now they've added some spells to the very last bit of it.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606080.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606080.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     triplegrim wrote:
    Will TOW use percentagea for army comp?


    This is another unknown. Though GW has stated they are opting for a more complex system, I have a hunch they'll avoid army percentages and establish mins and maxes for heroes and core some other way. I just can't see them going back after their other systems are as simple as "pick one hero aaand... that's it you're good." (slight exaggeration)]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606091.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606091.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    That being said, % army comp is unnecessary, they can just cut out the middle-man and provide you with the point minima and maxima that can be spent on each category of units for a given game size. Why tell people that they can spend a max of 25% of their points on special units in a 2000 point game, when you can just tell them that they can spend a maximum of 500pts? Realistically the game is balanced around a narrow range of point values, probably from 1500-2500 points. Going above or below that threshold can and will cause balance issues and a subpar experience. So that being the case, the likely solution is that GW will provide a "small", "medium", and "large" size format - say 1500pts, 2000pts, and 2500pts, and just tell you what the min/max amount of points spent on each category is.

    Thats already basically what Horus Heresy does with regards to Lords of War, I expect it will be the same approach for WHFB.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606114.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606114.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     triplegrim wrote:
    Why is compulsory movement after charges and movement? Shouldnt you be fleeing at the end of the turn or at the least at the beginning?

    https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/10/30/old-world-almanack-your-first-look-at-the-rules/


    To prevent a double fleeing move in case of being charged or too close to an enemy in the same phase, I guess.

    We'll know more in the next article about movement phase.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606179.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606179.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     triplegrim wrote:
    Why is compulsory movement after charges and movement? Shouldnt you be fleeing at the end of the turn or at the least at the beginning?

    https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/10/30/old-world-almanack-your-first-look-at-the-rules/


    Because sometimes compulsory moves can get in the way of other things.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606222.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606222.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Warptide wrote:
    I just can't see them going back after their other systems are as simple as "pick one hero aaand... that's it you're good." (slight exaggeration)


    That's a huge exaggeration, especially since they've already drawn parallels between TOW and HH, which still uses a version of the older Force Organization Chart.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606260.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606260.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors FOC was more similar to what others are using now than the stricter ones in between

    Like you need 1 General, certain amount of troops, can take additional heroes/monsters/warmachines

    instead of the split of troops into different categories]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606286.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606286.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Dudeface wrote:

    Come on. It's not hard to get it to the point your opponent has to gamble on a 2" window of inaccuracy.


    2" inaccuracy? That's no gamble.

    Gambling on inaccuracy we are talking more like 0.1" inaccuracy.

    Nobody who plays more than 2 or 3 games can't figure out 2". That's insanely long distance.

    Well maybe if you drink couple bottle of strong whiskey 2" could be an issue...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606294.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606294.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606323.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606323.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    tneva82 wrote:
    Dudeface wrote:

    Come on. It's not hard to get it to the point your opponent has to gamble on a 2" window of inaccuracy.


    2" inaccuracy? That's no gamble.

    Gambling on inaccuracy we are talking more like 0.1" inaccuracy.

    Nobody who plays more than 2 or 3 games can't figure out 2". That's insanely long distance.

    Well maybe if you drink couple bottle of strong whiskey 2" could be an issue...


    Can you not - we have already been told to not debate this.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606343.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606343.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors Kindly take it elsewhere, final warning.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606393.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606393.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/808986.page

    Do we have any confirmation of when GW will do another TOW post?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606531.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606531.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606550.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606550.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I was looking through the past articles and noticed a detail I'd forgotten:

    Situations where a single spell can decide the outcome of a battle are rare. The focus has shifted from keeping track of dice pools or hands of cards onto the positioning of Wizards.


    So I think it's pretty likely each spell caster has his or her own spell casting capacity in ToW.

    Apologies if everyone else has remembered this and it's common knowledge! ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606604.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606604.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors 2D6 test or 2D6+wizard value/LD for each spell

    With either a limit on spells per phase or spell per wizard]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606608.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606608.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Grail Seeker wrote:
    I don’t think they committed to a time. But I’m hoping it will be weekly.


    As do I. They have twelve or thirteen weeks to fill if we assume an early February release, and obviously a couple more if it's later in the month. Provided the social media slip up is accurate.

    That's a fair few articles to fill after the remaining three phase rundowns. Should be doable, but if they want to hand out only the bare minimum, I figure an article every two weeks could comfortably cover the core rules and give Tomb Kings and Bretonnian army rules an article each before we hit the pre-order period for whatever gets released first.

    So while I hope we'll finally get to see things move more quickly, I'm not quite ready to believe just yet.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606646.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606646.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    Chance is that it will simply be a 2D6 test or 2D6+wizard value/LD for each spell

    With either a limit on spells per phase or spell per wizard

    Wow, I'm getting flashbacks of the switch from 2nd to 3rd edition 40K. We were used to stopping the action to deal cards for our Psykers. Then it became "well, now it's mostly LD tests in the shooting phase". I'm not necessarily complaining; it's just a hit of nostalgia I was not expecting.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606679.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606679.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     KidCthulhu wrote:
    Wow, I'm getting flashbacks of the switch from 2nd to 3rd edition 40K. We were used to stopping the action to deal cards for our Psykers. Then it became "well, now it's mostly LD tests in the shooting phase". I'm not necessarily complaining; it's just a hit of nostalgia I was not expecting.


    That's how Fantasy used to be back then as well. I have a nostalgia for the old spell cards and power cards etc from the Battle Magic and Warhammer Magic days.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606929.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11606929.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    GW wrote:Here at Warhammer Community, we’ve got more of the exciting reveals you crave and a further expedition into the rules of Warhammer: The Old World.


    Seems like GW might actually pick up the pace. No complaints from me if they actually keep it up until the game's release.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607097.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607097.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607121.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607121.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/11/06/old-world-almanack-the-movement-phase-introduces-marching-columns/]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607186.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607186.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/11/06/old-world-almanack-the-movement-phase-introduces-marching-columns/

    MOVEMENT PHASE FOT THE OLD WORLD]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607188.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607188.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607190.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607190.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607192.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607192.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Well, even more miserable than it is now.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607193.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607193.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607194.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607194.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
    Is that new artwork in the article, or is that from old editions?


    All old stuff. 6th/7th Edition.

    (Not the rules example artwork, that's new). ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607197.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607197.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    That strikes me as the best way to keep everyone happy personally.
    Edit: It won't work, obviously, but it seems like a reasonable compromise between the two positions - the randomness is significantly reduced without going back to "charges will always succeed if you're good at eying distances."]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607198.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607198.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607200.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607200.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Astmeister wrote:
    So a non square unit doing a 90° turn is loosing immediately rank bonus, because it will be in marching order? Wyld!


    I don't believe that's what is being said? The front/sides/rear of the unit would still be the same, just facing a different direction. You'll probably have to Reform to change between marching and combat order. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607201.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607201.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors 2d6 with premeasuring confirmed. Getting in close beforehand has the reward of not allowing stand and shoot.

    JimmyWolf87 wrote:
     Astmeister wrote:
    So a non square unit doing a 90° turn is loosing immediately rank bonus, because it will be in marching order? Wyld!


    I don't believe that's what is being said? The front/sides/rear of the unit would still be the same, just facing a different direction. You'll probably have to Reform to change between marching and combat order.


    It says when you Turn you turn each model individually, so long/short sides will be swapped.

    But that's fancy maneuver, normally you'll just wheel while staying in formation. I don't think there's anything particularly surprising in this article. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607205.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607205.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Have to wonder if marching order will be worth it if the tables shrink or not.

    Not sure a specific speedy rule is needed to knights, as I feel they should have been fast enough.
    But meh, learning rules in drip feed just annoying, I would much rather see some units and how they could interact with the rules.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607206.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607206.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    so Move+2d6 with premeasuring confirmed. Getting in close beforehand has the reward of not allowing stand and shoot.



    Isn't it actually movement + 1D6 (but the best of a 2D6 throw)?

    Also, nobody commenting on the going back to the triangle lance formation for Bretonia? I think it's cool but so impractical and it makes me throw away all my movement bases for the old lance formation...
    Would also have been cool to see the rules for the lance formation.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607207.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607207.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    so Move+2d6 with premeasuring confirmed.


    No, Move + the highest of 2D6

    To establish the range of their charge, units roll two dice, pick the highest score from the two and add it to their Movement characteristic.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607208.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607208.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Just Tony wrote:
    And I'm officially out.


    Bye.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607210.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607210.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Rihgu wrote:
    Fully open skirmisher units is an... interesting choice.


    It's how they worked from 4th to 7th.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607211.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607211.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I am also very curious how reforms will work to move from Marching Column to Close Order. There were a lot of rules for changing ranks previously, which I always felt complicated things. This already seems much cleaner, but we are only getting small bits. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607215.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607215.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors 2D6 for infantry, not simply add them to your move. So there's a reduced randomness compared to 8th.

    I'm more interested in the change to combat order and marching columns formations. Especially because units of 40 zombies / skavenslaves in a front of 5 and 8 ranks deep is no longer combat order valid, but marching column valid. So there's less abuse on "let's put as few models on the front so that the enemy can't fight with his full power if it has a bigger front" from these weak fighters that rely entirely on bonus ranks static bonuses to keep fighting.

    It shows the designers know about how old Battle worked. Promising.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607216.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607216.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Just Tony wrote:
    And I'm officially out.

    What exactly is the red flag here? I'm not trying to troll; I'm curious what you're seeing that I am not.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607217.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607217.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     KidCthulhu wrote:
     Just Tony wrote:
    And I'm officially out.

    What exactly is the red flag here? I'm not trying to troll; I'm curious what you're seeing that I am not.


    Random charges. Let's not reignite the "debate" that made the mods angry here.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607221.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607221.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    MaxT wrote:
     Just Tony wrote:
    And I'm officially out.


    Bye.


    Removed - rule #1]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607222.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607222.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     The Phazer wrote:
    So the charge model is more or less the same as WAP?

    That strikes me as the best way to keep everyone happy personally.
    Edit: It won't work, obviously, but it seems like a reasonable compromise between the two positions - the randomness is significantly reduced without going back to "charges will always succeed if you're good at eying distances."


    Yeah it seems nice. A move 4 unit classically charged 8”. For this a charge of 4” plus highest of 2D6 gives you bounds of 5” to 10”, but you hit 8” 75% of the time. No silly across the board charges ala 8th, gives a zone of risk, makes dwarf and elf movement (assuming they’re still 3 and 5 respectively) still meaningful.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607224.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607224.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    This... seems actually quite good? Granted, will have to see how they are in practice (40k 10th seemed okay until the indexes were published) but I am pretty positive about this.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607226.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607226.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Move+(best of 2d6) is pretty nice, +4.5" average with very tame variance. I honestly miss it as difficult terrain movement in 40k. And it takes base M value into account.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607228.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607228.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    Misread.

    Move+(best of 2d6) is pretty nice, +4.5" average with very tame variance. I honestly miss it as difficult terrain movement in 40k. And it takes base M value into account.


    Note that they didn't say anything about how terrain affect moves of units in TOW.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607231.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607231.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sarouan wrote:
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    Misread.

    Move+(best of 2d6) is pretty nice, +4.5" average with very tame variance. I honestly miss it as difficult terrain movement in 40k. And it takes base M value into account.


    Note that they didn't say anything about how terrain affect moves of units in TOW.


    I assume half speed, since half speed is already confirmed to exist as a concept in the rules.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607232.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607232.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607233.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607233.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607236.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607236.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607237.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607237.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     The Phazer wrote:
    This... seems actually quite good? Granted, will have to see how they are in practice (40k 10th seemed okay until the indexes were published) but I am pretty positive about this.


    I'm quite happy with what the article proposes. Cutting charge range by a d6 removes the silliness of 8th ed charges without removing the variability that made 8th ed a more dynamic game. And 2d6 pick highest keeps swinginess in check. I like that.

    And unlike you, 10th ed 40k never seemed okay to me, so I don't have to feel wary of this preview. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607238.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607238.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     BertBert wrote:
    Am I crazy or don't they actually explain what Open Order entails?


    Not specifically, but they mention they'll be speedier, more maneuverable, and manage terrain better.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607239.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607239.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Or deciding to take the gamble that, roughly 1/3rd of the time, you've got move + 6"

    Going to make cavalry comparatively more risky - if swiftstide goes to all cav - at Move + (2d6 choose) + D6. Your guys could end up marooned much more easily if you get greedy.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607240.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607240.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors tbh!

    A good compromise for charges between the 4-7th and 8th Ed approaches that gives an element of risk while keeping movement values relevant.

    Removing rank bonus for ‘bus’ formation is an interesting choice, but probably for the best as it stops you going too large while limiting return attacks. Will play havoc with movement trays for tar pits though as you’ll likely want to reform to reduce frontage as you lose models off the back ranks.

    Shooting next, but it’s the Combat phase I’m the most interested in tbh - the balance of lethality vs being able to meaningfully attack is what will make or break the game tbh.
    Number of attacks needs to be toned right down from 8th to keep unit sizes reasonable, but front rank wiping from previous editions is a massive tilt to cav and monsters and can mean weaker models just become wound counters.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607241.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607241.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    In old Battle, you often saw units of fighters that were "average" and rely on numbers to keep fighting, thus having as many deep ranks as possible. Formation of 5 front and 6 deep were very common. Now these same units will be "forced" to be 6 front and 5 deep at least to be combat effective, otherwise they'll be marching column material only.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607242.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607242.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Rihgu wrote:
     BertBert wrote:
    Am I crazy or don't they actually explain what Open Order entails?


    Not specifically, but they mention they'll be speedier, more maneuverable, and manage terrain better.


    My guess is that it might work like 8th Edition skirmishers, probably with an immunity to being slowed by terrain if that come back.

    Will be interesting to see which legacy skirmishers units become Loose Order and which go back to 4th-7th style formations.

    Could make some interesting distinction for elite units - e.g. maybe basic Skinks will be Loose Order and Chameleons will be skirmishers?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607247.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607247.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Lord Zarkov wrote:

    Will be interesting to see which legacy skirmishers units become Loose Order and which go back to 4th-7th style formations.

    Could make some interesting distinction for elite units - e.g. maybe basic Skinks will be Loose Order and Chameleons will be skirmishers?


    Yeah, gonna depend on what options each unit gets.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607251.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607251.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I.E. - you deploy in this formation. First turn march up 3*M" turn 1. You reform to go into "Combat Order" turn 2. You can now finally charge in turn 3? If Musicians allowed a normal move via "Swift Reform" (or similar) then okay, you can now go 4*M" forward. Otherwise its 3*M".

    But... you could also just march twice in combat order over turn 1 and turn 2 for 4*M" then charge in turn 3. That way you aren't potentially exposed to being charged or something while still in Marching Column?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607252.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607252.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607253.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607253.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Tyel wrote:
    Maybe I'm missing something - but is anyone going to bother with Marching Column? There may be other benefits etc - but on the face of it.

    I.E. - you deploy in this formation. First turn march up 3*M" turn 1. You reform to go into "Combat Order" turn 2. You can now finally charge in turn 3? If Musicians allowed a normal move via "Swift Reform" (or similar) then okay, you can now go 4*M" forward. Otherwise its 3*M".

    But... you could also just march twice in combat order over turn 1 and turn 2 for 4*M" then charge in turn 3. That way you aren't potentially exposed to being charged or something while still in Marching Column?


    We don't know what the missions are, some may want you to get up field fast. We also don't know what benefits charges give, it may not be as devastating for Dwarves or a dedicated Anvil unit to march T1 then reform to accept a charge T2.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607256.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607256.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Tyel wrote:
    Maybe I'm missing something - but is anyone going to bother with Marching Column? There may be other benefits etc - but on the face of it.

    I.E. - you deploy in this formation. First turn march up 3*M" turn 1. You reform to go into "Combat Order" turn 2. You can now finally charge in turn 3? If Musicians allowed a normal move via "Swift Reform" (or similar) then okay, you can now go 4*M" forward. Otherwise its 3*M".

    But... you could also just march twice in combat order over turn 1 and turn 2 for 4*M" then charge in turn 3. That way you aren't potentially exposed to being charged or something while still in Marching Column?


    Moving triple your move is a bigger deal than in previous Battle editions where this formation never had that boost. It's mostly useful for big battlefields where you need to redeploy quickly your further units towards where the main / important fight is.

    But I think that overall, it's main use is precisely to prevent units from using certain formations to keep being battle ready. Because a lot of battle formations favored by players in older editions suddenly become marching columns in TOW. That's the real change here.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607260.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607260.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors just everyone ignored it because moving models off the tray and back on was not something people bothered

    and triple speed will be more important for faster units and changing 5 cavalry models is different to a block of infantry

    Lord Zarkov wrote:
     Rihgu wrote:
    Will be interesting to see which legacy skirmishers units become Loose Order and which go back to 4th-7th style formations.
    Could make some interesting distinction for elite units - e.g. maybe basic Skinks will be Loose Order and Chameleons will be skirmishers?
    Beastman in 6th had that special rules that made them skirmishers for movement but fight in R&F formation, so I guess Loose Order will be this]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607261.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607261.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Skirmish and Open Order seem distinct (the latter specifically mentions fighting in ranks), but largely undefined

    Combat Order vs Marching Column- both are more than. Where does equal fall? I used a lot of 4x4 and 5x5 in various editions of WFB, but as written they aren't in combat order OR marching column.

    Also technically speaking, you can shoot an enemy unit out of 'marching column' formation (which might be a benefit for them if they're close enough to engage). The example unit is 4x5. 8 casualties means they're 4x3 and no longer a marching column. And at 4 casualties, they fall into the 'undefined' category of ranks=files.

    ---
    It seems a shame to see only Brets get lance formation (and swiftstride?) rather than open formations up. 3rd edition had more than this handful, and imo, they added a lot.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607262.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607262.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607263.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607263.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Voss wrote:

    Combat Order vs Marching Column- both are more than. Where does equal fall?


    Good question. Here, it's a resume, not the full rules written in book. Maybe there's a situation where they belong. Or maybe they're not valid formations anymore, possible as well.


    Also technically speaking, you can shoot an enemy unit out of 'marching column' formation (which might be a benefit for them if they're close enough to engage). The example unit is 4x5. 8 casualties means they're 4x3 and no longer a marching column. And at 4 casualties, they fall into the 'undefined' category of ranks=files.


    Depends on how the rules cover that case, but I can see it working fine as it : it just either becomes a valid formation after losses are removed or has to become one as soon as it can (in their next move phase, for example).]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607264.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607264.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607267.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607267.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sarouan wrote:
    Tyel wrote:
    Maybe I'm missing something - but is anyone going to bother with Marching Column? There may be other benefits etc - but on the face of it.

    I.E. - you deploy in this formation. First turn march up 3*M" turn 1. You reform to go into "Combat Order" turn 2. You can now finally charge in turn 3? If Musicians allowed a normal move via "Swift Reform" (or similar) then okay, you can now go 4*M" forward. Otherwise its 3*M".

    But... you could also just march twice in combat order over turn 1 and turn 2 for 4*M" then charge in turn 3. That way you aren't potentially exposed to being charged or something while still in Marching Column?


    Moving triple your move is a bigger deal than in previous Battle editions where this formation never had that boost. It's mostly useful for big battlefields where you need to redeploy quickly your further units towards where the main / important fight is.

    But I think that overall, it's main use is precisely to prevent units from using certain formations to keep being battle ready. Because a lot of battle formations favored by players in older editions suddenly become marching columns in TOW. That's the real change here.


    Mostly useful for zipping up flanks, as most units normally trying that were either Skirmishers or Light Cavalry, both of which aren’t a major threat engaging on the front if you’ve a banner and if Outnumber still presents a combat res bonus. Key is not to risk too expensive a unit, as +2 Combat Res still isn’t a sure thing. But for those armies without Skirmishers or Light Cavalry of their own, it is a way to keep enemy units off your own flank.

    Charge rule is interesting, particularly as a Failed Charge still makes the full move of what was rolled up. Before, and memory is rusty, I think you just moved half distance? I presume there’ll be something in the rules that I can’t declare a charge at anything outside my maximum potential charge reach. Otherwise Stunties just got a nifty speed boost, as they’re more likely to move faster charging than marching.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607273.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607273.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607274.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607274.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    Oh have we spun the roulette wheel of table sizes yet?


    Is Horus Heresy 6'x4' or is it the 40K 60"x42" or whatever it is?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607275.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607275.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors D6" on the charge. While I'm not personally wed to static charge ranges or random charges, the long bomb charges of 8th 2d6+movement were pretty crazy.

    Dropping it to 1d6+movement keeps things interesting and allows for more maneuvering.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607277.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607277.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607278.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607278.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    Oh have we spun the roulette wheel of table sizes yet?


    Hoping for 4' round tables, to contrast with the square bases.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607282.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607282.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sarouan wrote:
     KidCthulhu wrote:
     Just Tony wrote:
    And I'm officially out.

    What exactly is the red flag here? I'm not trying to troll; I'm curious what you're seeing that I am not.


    Random charges. Let's not reignite the "debate" that made the mods angry here.

    Thank you. That was a concise answer.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607283.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607283.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors 2D6 makes it tricky

    like normal M8 Cavalry doing 9-14" with 12" being the most likely, swift Cavalry doing 10-20" with 15" being the most likely
    so we are back to "disadvantage" of fixed ranges that you can just place yourself outside the enemy charge range while still being inside your own (and only a bad roll, twice will hinder it)
    (infantry that can have a lucky roll and charges 10", you can still savley have your swift cavalry at 11" as a triple 1 is unlikely, and if it happens to opponent can claim tactical superiority)

    Voss wrote:

    Combat Order vs Marching Column- both are more than. Where does equal fall? I used a lot of 4x4 and 5x5 in various editions of WFB, but as written they aren't in combat order OR marching column
    always scroll down to the very bottom:

    * In other words, the unit needs to be at least as wide as it is deep.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607285.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607285.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    If your regiment is exactly 4x4 or 5x5 it can't do anything until you lose a guy, the gap will define which is your rear rank


    It's weird. The article states that a Close Order unit must have more models in a rank than they have in a file, but then the asterisk claims they need to be at least as wide as they are deep.

    I'm going to assume that square formations are not allowed at all.

    I do like the principle behind the rule, if only because it should make the board look more like a battlefield.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607287.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607287.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607293.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607293.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    This is presumably trying to stop the 5*10 (or more) goblin/zombie/skaven slave bus.

    Agree with responses that marching order may benefit say cavalry that wouldn't care about a rank bonus and just want to move up quickly. I guess it depends if there's a minimum frontage you have to maintain.

    I don't think you can really discuss the charge rules (beyond not liking 8th editions "long charges" - which didn't hugely bother me) without knowing how combat works. They are fundamentally tied together.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607294.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607294.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Kid_Kyoto wrote:
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    Oh have we spun the roulette wheel of table sizes yet?


    Hoping for 4' round tables, to contrast with the square bases.


    You jest but the local oldhammer group gathers to play older editions of WHFB on round banquet tables at the local Freemasons lodge. They mark out a rectangle on it, of course, so they aren't really playing a round battle but they could lol.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607295.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607295.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607298.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607298.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607299.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607299.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607300.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607300.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Remember from one of the earliest previews; all models in the front rank fight. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607301.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607301.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sarouan wrote:
    Voss wrote:

    Combat Order vs Marching Column- both are more than. Where does equal fall?


    Good question. Here, it's a resume, not the full rules written in book. Maybe there's a situation where they belong. Or maybe they're not valid formations anymore, possible as well.

    Its literally a picture of rules text with examples.

     kodos wrote:

    Voss wrote:

    Combat Order vs Marching Column- both are more than. Where does equal fall? I used a lot of 4x4 and 5x5 in various editions of WFB, but as written they aren't in combat order OR marching column
    always scroll down to the very bottom:

    * In other words, the unit needs to be at least as wide as it is deep.


    I did miss that (for various reasons, not least because I don't look for asterisks or footnotes in web pages, but also because they aren't footnoting the important stuff- the rules pic). Not sure why the rules in the image don't just include the correct wording in the first place.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607307.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607307.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607309.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607309.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    If so... It sounds tedious.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607340.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607340.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607346.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607346.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors 2D6 pick the highest removes the main issue I had with the random charge - the crazy distance units could get.

    If I'm reading it right, Cav charge M+2d6(pick highest) +1D6. That makes them relatively more swingy.

    It's nice to see formations used a little more and have effects beyond changing shape.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607350.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607350.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    This random charge is more in line with what I suggested earlier, so not too over the top.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607353.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607353.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors gw simp either. Elegant.

    Also, does the rank rules mean I can field my 4x4 troops and still get 3 rank bonuses? If so, I'm very happy.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607360.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607360.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Johanxp wrote:
    So when we give certain orders we have to change the shape of units by moving the necessary miniatures, one by one? So movement trays become useless?

    If so... It sounds tedious.



    Changing formation was always a thing in fb. You expected aos like rules?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607362.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607362.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Also am I right in thinking in the reduction of charge ranges that movement/positioning will be even more important, and that the game will feel "larger scale" compared to the actual size of the minis.

    And the whole Open Order thing, so the unit will still be rank and file as normal but perhaps it's to represent more loose or disorganised formations like savage orcs, as opposed to staunch shield walls of elves or whathaveyou.

    I've never played a "blind deployment" game (ie where you use something to block board view and both deploy all at once) but given there's now more movement options it sounds like it could be fun!]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607363.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607363.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    While I preferred static charge distances, the M+2D6 (highest) is pretty acceptable. Coupled with the magic changes, I'm cautiosly optimistic about ToW. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607380.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607380.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Kalamadea wrote:
    triple marching be very useful for scenarios too. Games where units need to get off a table edge or into enemy deployment zones would be impacted simply by having it as an option. Calling a game in turn 4 because it's impossible physically move units far enough is never fun.

    While I preferred static charge distances, the M+2D6 (highest) is pretty acceptable. Coupled with the magic changes, I'm cautiosly optimistic about ToW.


    triple elves are going to be a headache.... 15" a turn is nuts. Let alone cavalry going 24" in one turn. Going to be hard to stop them getting off the board...

    Dwarfs though are getting much better charge support, as is the way with the random dice rolling - Max charge of 9" is triple their move, so it's a 50% greater range. the average rolls are going to slow down elves and speed up dwarfs, but only in charging.

    Triple moves will speed up the already fast units even more.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607386.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607386.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     The Phazer wrote:
    So the charge model is more or less the same as WAP?

    That strikes me as the best way to keep everyone happy personally.
    Edit: It won't work, obviously, but it seems like a reasonable compromise between the two positions - the randomness is significantly reduced without going back to "charges will always succeed if you're good at eying distances."


    Agreed. It allows enough randomness to prevent the ol' quarter-inch shuffle that plagued so many of my games in the past.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607400.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607400.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    The second step is to actually make your Charge Moves. To establish the range of their charge, units roll two dice, pick the highest score from the two and add it to their Movement characteristic. This means a unit of Skeleton Warriors has a charge range of between 5” and 10”, but Bretonnian Knights are rather more dangerous – their Swiftstride special rule adds an extra d6” to every charge they make.


    Judging from the article, swiftstride is either a cavalry specific rule or a Bretonnian cav specific rule. I have to imagine it's the latter since that rule was not in 6th nor 7th IIRC and it was for all cavalry, and it's the same as here (just worded differently). Wonder if Bretonnia's Purebreed special rule still stands tho.

    Anyway, all looks to be in order; I'm not so sure about the Lance Formation actually forming the wedge, I'm not certain it'd make that big of a difference in the movement phase; one thought is that the wedge indicates that the unit is in the Lance Formation instead of marching formation, which may be confused with the lance as done in 6th edition (3 files wide only). It'd be interesting to me to see how the lance formation will behave in melee though; also what happens if the unit is charged while in the Lance.

    I'm also assuming the Marching Order formation will be at an disadvantage in melee, in that only the first rank gets supporting attacks and the flanks don't, besides the combat resolution penalties.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607406.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607406.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors USR it means that superheavy cav wouldn't get it. Ogre cav for example.

    It also is indicative of them using USRs to cover things like they did in HH.

    But having just bretonnian knights being able to charge up 20" and all other cav only 14" is a pretty big disparity.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607411.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607411.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607413.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607413.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Hellebore wrote:Dwarfs though are getting much better charge support, as is the way with the random dice rolling - Max charge of 9" is triple their move, so it's a 50% greater range. the average rolls are going to slow down elves and speed up dwarfs, but only in charging.


    Which feels wrong on every level and why I will not be playing this game. My plus column is that minis will be coming back out. GW will get my money in that respect which means it'll endorse a ruleset I don't endorse, but I had to swallow that pill buying AOS branded WFB models anyway, so I can live with it.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607415.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607415.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Waaagh_Gonads wrote:
    5 'man' unit goblin wolf riders in column 1 model wide and 5 ranks deep moving 27 inches up the table edge, reforming and turning 90 degrees turn 2, to be ready for a turn 3 rear or flank charge of 18 inches to the enemy.... glorious.


    Secret tip - Overcome these gameplay hacks by... Not playing with WAAC numpties.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607429.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607429.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors (as people also suggest for AoS instead of trying to actually use movement tactics)

    light cavalry getting behind the line and having something in the back to catch them is an essential part of any melee heavy game
    this is not an issue at all as if a 5 model light cavalry unit can overrun your army, you have done something wrong (and it is neither the opponent being WAAC nor the fault of the rules)

    what is a problem, that the random charges are too still too swingy in addition to have the disadvantage of fixed ranges

    Infantry is doing 5-10", standard cavalry 9-14" and swift cavakry 10-20"
    so instead of placing your cavalry 8,01" away from infantry to get the charge without being charge, you now just do 10,01" and your opponent hoping for you to roll a double/triple 1.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607447.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607447.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     RustyNumber wrote:
     Waaagh_Gonads wrote:
    5 'man' unit goblin wolf riders in column 1 model wide and 5 ranks deep moving 27 inches up the table edge, reforming and turning 90 degrees turn 2, to be ready for a turn 3 rear or flank charge of 18 inches to the enemy.... glorious.


    Secret tip - Overcome these gameplay hacks by... Not playing with WAAC numpties.


    What is exactly WAACy hacky about it? I know we are far from complete rules which may have a lot of things that disallow this (like "no free reform after march" for example), but so far it seems perfectly legal, fair and very fast cavalry-like. And not that different to what we had in 6th (move further but subsequent charge shorter and unreliable)

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607454.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607454.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Cyel wrote:
     RustyNumber wrote:
     Waaagh_Gonads wrote:
    5 'man' unit goblin wolf riders in column 1 model wide and 5 ranks deep moving 27 inches up the table edge, reforming and turning 90 degrees turn 2, to be ready for a turn 3 rear or flank charge of 18 inches to the enemy.... glorious.


    Secret tip - Overcome these gameplay hacks by... Not playing with WAAC numpties.


    What is exactly WAACy hacky about it? I know we are far from complete rules which may have a lot of things that disallow this (like "no free reform after march" for example), but so far it seems perfectly legal, fair and very fast cavalry-like. And not that different to what we had in 6th (move further but subsequent charge shorter and unreliable)



    Remind me what was the average profile of a wolfrider?

    Because as memory serves the only thing going for them was the outflanking and the wolfs and that wasn't a lot.

    In that scenario i'd be more concerned about barbarian cav, but even with these a semi competent deployment will shut that move down instantly atleast until you managed to break a block to roll up a flank.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607456.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607456.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607457.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607457.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Waaagh_Gonads wrote:
    5 'man' unit goblin wolf riders in column 1 model wide and 5 ranks deep moving 27 inches up the table edge, reforming and turning 90 degrees turn 2, to be ready for a turn 3 rear or flank charge of 18 inches to the enemy.... glorious.


    So fast cavalry used well. If your opponent can't find a way to stop a unit of 5 light cavalry models getting in your flank/rear in 2-3 turns than it's not a rules problem. The rules previewed are looking good. Already a lot better than I expected!]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607461.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607461.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors WAAC
    I can see now why people don't like certain games/Editions]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607462.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607462.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607469.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607469.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     RustyNumber wrote:
    I took the implication to be you could do it with multiple tiny units, a "homing missile" system against war machines and small ranged units


    Which is exactly what light cav should be doing - harressing missiles and war machines.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607470.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607470.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     RustyNumber wrote:
    I took the implication to be you could do it with multiple tiny units, a "homing missile" system against war machines and small ranged units


    Unlikely because warmachines are behind the line and a decent volley of any missile unit of factions with warmachines is bound to send the gobbos packing.

    Unless we are talking about chaos warriors, in which case the cannon itself will eat the gobbos, or the barbarian cav will. And basically all chaos warriors armies require barbarian cav due to the gaping hole of the roster in order to counter skirms, side charge/support monsters and as cheap shock cav.

    Primarily if you get through and charge a bolttrhower etc, then you either broke the enemies line already, in which it would be more usefull to side charge an enemy unit with them to roll up the enemy army or your opponent failed in deployment and positioning/ forgot to keep reserves to plug ranks.


    Either Way is indicative of either good play on the goblins side or mistakes on the opponents side. Both of which however highlight the role light cav plays.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607471.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607471.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    So using the movement phase to get an advantage is WAAC
    I can see now why people don't like certain games/Editions


     kodos wrote:
    yeah, don't actually use the rules, just line up everything, move it straight forward and start complaining how your hammer units cannot kill the anvil units in a frontal charge without support
    (as people also suggest for AoS instead of trying to actually use movement tactics)

    light cavalry getting behind the line and having something in the back to catch them is an essential part of any melee heavy game
    this is not an issue at all as if a 5 model light cavalry unit can overrun your army, you have done something wrong (and it is neither the opponent being WAAC nor the fault of the rules)

    .



    Yes, such attitude seems to exist. Interestingly I've only learned that people play like that (using only the most basic part of the toolbox) recently, thanks to YT video battle reports.

    I even wrote about my surprise in another thread:

    Cyel wrote:



    I am wondering if playstyle affects this perception. For example recently I've been surprised to watch some of the 6th edition reports from this channel




    and, boy, if you played WFB like that no wonder your opponent having a few inches of charge range advantage made all the difference! To copy my comment from underneath this report:

    I have watched a few of these reports already, and the saturation of player agency, interesting, meaningful and non-obvious decisions per unit of gameplay time (or per page of rules) seems abysmal. These blocks just get shuffled forward until they meet what was deployed directly across the battlefield from them and then totally random combat Yhatzee gives some result which tips balance in favour of one of the sides...

    My memory tells me that the game was far more strategic than that. Or maybe it's the fact that for some reason you don't use a lot of sacrificial units, especially fast cavalry which can redirect these expensive blocks at unfavourable angles. I remember always playing with 3 min. Wolf Rider units in O&G, 3 min. units of Warhounds inChaos, 3 min. Dire Wolves in Vampires etc. Can't imagine just having nothing to throw away to delay this Black Knight Bus for a turn (or to toy with those Khorne Knights all newbies erroneously thought were awesome because stats ;D)!

    I remember using your shooting, magic and support units to kill enemy support units, because with more sacrificial support than your opponent you could control their movement (by baiting or redirecting, or taking a charge and overrun into an anvil and countercharging in a flank). With so little support it really feels like blocks shuffling forward and dice deciding everything...simple, shallow gameplay not justifying dozens of pages of rules and 2+ hours spent doing it.


    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607472.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607472.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    tneva82 wrote:
    Johanxp wrote:
    So when we give certain orders we have to change the shape of units by moving the necessary miniatures, one by one? So movement trays become useless?

    If so... It sounds tedious.



    Changing formation was always a thing in fb. You expected aos like rules?


    Please, do not provoke. I play Kow and Conquest, two great ruleset, modern and streamlined but not as silly as Aos. This ruleset smell old.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607480.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607480.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607482.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607482.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607496.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607496.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Open formation was used by beast herds and is in the Ancients battle rules. It usually results in a compromise between skirmish and closed order. Better movement through terrain but only getting a +1 or +2 max rank bonus.

    The big thing I saw was counter charge as an optional reaction to being charged. This also was in Ancient battles and quite an interesting change for the game. I would like for all troops to be able to counter charge unless the enemy was several inches faster. I think in Ancients it allowed for cavalry to counter charge only. Many other ancients rules sets allow for infantry to charge each other, although there is little incentive unless they add infantry charge bonuses. In 3rd edition charging units added +1 to the "to hit" roll. So both sides doing this would make for a bloody first round. 2 units of cavalry armed with lances charging would make for a pretty nasty first turn of combat also even without the to hit bonus.

    Keep an eye on the combat rules and see if they change "rank bonus" to "infantry rank bonus". That is something really needed.

    Movement trays are not a big deal. Put your unit on 2-3 smaller trays to allow for different formations.

    The lance formation was called wedge in 3rd edition and usable by any troops. It allowed a unit to attempt to pass through the enemy and emerge from the other side. Very handy if faced with a single rank of enemy troops. I doubt they will bring back that gloriously epic rule from 3rd but one can only hope.

    While they are at it perhaps they can bring back the square formation. A hollow block with troops facing in all directions. It can not move but can not be pushed back.

    As a true oldhammer fan and player of many years this is getting me interested again.







    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607500.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607500.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Johanxp wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
    Johanxp wrote:
    So when we give certain orders we have to change the shape of units by moving the necessary miniatures, one by one? So movement trays become useless?

    If so... It sounds tedious.



    Changing formation was always a thing in fb. You expected aos like rules?


    Please, do not provoke. I play Kow and Conquest, two great ruleset, modern and streamlined but not as silly as Aos. This ruleset smell old.


    Mind you that it's been known for quite a while that GW's stated goal was to make The Old World a mashup of 3rd to 8th ed Fantasy. There may be some streamlining where you may glimpse more modern sensibilities, but the mission statement was to make a game with recognizable, existing mechanics to play on people's nostalgia.

    Provided you didn't somehow miss this, there was precious little doubt that The Old World would be based on individual models moving in formation, rather than unchanging blocks.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607504.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607504.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mr Morden wrote:
     RustyNumber wrote:
    I took the implication to be you could do it with multiple tiny units, a "homing missile" system against war machines and small ranged units


    Which is exactly what light cav should be doing - harressing missiles and war machines.


    And getting all hacked and mangled by a Cheeky Chariot!

    Though the range of the charge for the Wolf Riders above is off. Max charge reach is 15”.

    And five of them flanking a unit unsupported probably isn’t going to achieve a great deal. I’ll still have a static res of +2 from Banner and (presumably until further notice) Outnumber. And that’s assuming enough of the fleabags survive to strip my ranks

    The overall point still stands though. Anyone not reacting to such a fast moving flanking unit is asking for a kicking, and shouldn’t complain when they get on.

    Though I think I’d use such raw speed to start tackling enemy artillery nice and quickly.

    Also, am I going bonkers or did Fast Cavalry used to have a special rule to aid with reforming the unit swiftly? I no longer have any WHFB rulebooks so can only stick to my crap memory. I think it involved a Musician and passing a Ld test.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607516.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607516.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Specifically game length, if we are on a five turn, or worse a four turn, game then the time taken to change formations its perhaps a large penalty (assuming it is a time to change, if could be something you do at the end of movement - as in can deploy in a march column, move, then reform, maybe with Ld check - don't know as yet)

    bringing in the ability to reform on an Ld check and move, or if failed you reform but cannot move could be interesting.

    also reduced charge ranges is good as it gives space to move and hopefully removes the "terror bomb" charges, or at least kerbs it.

    Will be interested in seeing the price and contents, in theory I have Bretonnia ready to go now and don't really need more, depending on what the skellies side gets they could be good though]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607520.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607520.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I do get where you’re coming from. But stuff like Marching Order strikes me as an opportunity to take the overall shape of your battle line away from “well, it’s setup or nuffink”

    It’ll take a bit of getting used to, and more to get really good with it. But a wily opponent may end up with the opportunity to setup up with false weakness, using Marching Order etc to spring their trap?

    I’m not describing this well, but hopefully you can get the gist of my wibblings.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607521.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607521.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607522.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607522.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    It’s not been part of the game for yonks, but up until at least…I wanna say 5th Ed? A unit that could Fly could be removed from the board one turn, and charge *anything* the turn after.

    Suffice to say this was incredibly powerful, and if I had say, a couple of units of Harpies, I could reliably be destroying your artillery from no later than turn two. And if I’d gone first, I guess enjoy your single solitary barrage before I’ve minced or otherwise tied up your crew.

    Oh, and if incredibly hazy memory serves, there was a single Magic Arrow which could target stuff Flying High. Might’ve been a spell or two as well?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607524.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607524.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
    Oh, and if incredibly hazy memory serves, there was a single Magic Arrow which could target stuff Flying High.


    Yeah, Sky Arrow of Naloer. Or Naoler. Something like that. Was perhaps a bit of a gotcha card, but quite funny.

    I wouldn't expect Fly High to come back though.

    On the whole light cav thing - from memory the issue was better units. Dark Riders were incredibly annoying due to running around shooting things - and then representing a reasonable flank attack (elf+spear+horse) in a way that a goblin kind of wasn't. Kill 2 goblins, and they are facing a LD6 break test. Unsurprisingly failed a lot and ran off the board.

    Dire Wolves were annoying because they had to be wiped to the last wolf. Flesh Hounds could eat lighter units.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607525.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607525.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Johanxp wrote:
    Please, do not provoke. I play Kow and Conquest, two great ruleset, modern and streamlined but not as silly as Aos. This ruleset smell old.


    Well, folks who want top tier streamlined rulesets already moved on to those two long ago. It's best for everyone if TOW does not try to copy those two but services folks who want a GW styled ruleset.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607531.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607531.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mr_Rose wrote:
    I missed lapping round a bunch when it disappeared from 7th edition – I hope it’s back.


    That’s something I never used myself. But then, playing Chaos I rarely had the infantry to spare, so would rather keep my rank bonus than spend a couple of turns trying to negate yours.

    Plus there wasn’t a great deal of stuff that could stand against Chaos Warriors on the charge!]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607532.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607532.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors The first one locks out true combat monster characters and the second means you have to be careful with throw-away skirmishing flyer units like harpies.

     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
     Mr_Rose wrote:
    I missed lapping round a bunch when it disappeared from 7th edition – I hope it’s back.


    That’s something I never used myself. But then, playing Chaos I rarely had the infantry to spare, so would rather keep my rank bonus than spend a couple of turns trying to negate yours.

    Plus there wasn’t a great deal of stuff that could stand against Chaos Warriors on the charge!

    But that’s why it was great for goblins; you always had an extra rank or two to pull the flankers from so you didn’t have to lose static CR. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607534.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607534.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607535.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607535.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607536.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607536.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    So using the movement phase to get an advantage is WAAC
    I can see now why people don't like certain games/Editions


    Waac and That Guy are abused a lot as terms. I was called a waac guy for playing a completely normal MH warband at 1000gc last year, and That Guy in a 40k game where I didnt dispute a single rule but let the other chump get away with a ton of gak, especially the ghost inch in movement. They used to call players like me This Guy. Can only imagine people havent run into people on the spectrum with no socialization at the games tables, but have plenty of vocabulary about it, eager to use.

    The random charge, not so random with 2d6 pick highest, is chefs kiss perfect in my eyes. Couldnt ask for a better solution.

    Btw. What type of battlefield has fixed charges irl? Mechanisms should come from the irl situation, not just be 8 inches fixed for every unit.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    Lapping around is probably the most pointlessly fiddly concept since killing individual horses from chariots.


    I remember buying the 6th rulebook in 2001 and reading those rules over and over again hoping to use it and believing it to be a very decisive mechanic. Haha.

    Does the current system mean I can use a 3 front swordsman group with 2 ranks, in TOW? For a total for 6 swordsmen?


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Waaagh_Gonads wrote:
    5 'man' unit goblin wolf riders in column 1 model wide and 5 ranks deep moving 27 inches up the table edge, reforming and turning 90 degrees turn 2, to be ready for a turn 3 rear or flank charge of 18 inches to the enemy.... glorious.


    I love it. Like the cavalry in Braveheart when they ride round and gets the archers in that early battle. Arrive mid game, be decisive in mid game


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Vulcan wrote:
     The Phazer wrote:
    So the charge model is more or less the same as WAP?

    That strikes me as the best way to keep everyone happy personally.
    Edit: It won't work, obviously, but it seems like a reasonable compromise between the two positions - the randomness is significantly reduced without going back to "charges will always succeed if you're good at eying distances."


    Agreed. It allows enough randomness to prevent the ol' quarter-inch shuffle that plagued so many of my games in the past.


    Exactly. My stomach hurts when I think of the hours wasted looking at some fellow grognard wheezing over the table shuffling shuffling shuffling. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607555.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607555.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     triplegrim wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    So using the movement phase to get an advantage is WAAC
    I can see now why people don't like certain games/Editions


    Waac and That Guy are abused a lot as terms. I was called a waac guy for playing a completely normal MH warband at 1000gc last year, and That Guy in a 40k game where I didnt dispute a single rule but let the other chump get away with a ton of gak, especially the ghost inch in movement. They used to call players like me This Guy. Can only imagine people havent run into people on the spectrum with no socialization at the games tables, but have plenty of vocabulary about it, eager to use.


    I find that when very casual players play against those who are a bit more experienced/serious then you can get a bit of a divide. The super casual/less experienced player can sometimes miss-interpret the other player playing really well as them trying to "Win at all costs" because they are playing it "seriously" as opposed to "just having fun".

    What it often just boils down to is different attitudes but also just different levels of game experience and skill. Novice vs intermediate/experienced skill is always a tricky matchup because either the novice is going to lose a lot; or the more experienced has to handicap themselves (eg in a wargame take less points) or "play badly". It's different to "seal clubbing" because that is intentional and deliberate targeting of less experienced players. However in smaller social groups or such you can easily end up with so few choices that the novice is playing the experienced more and more times and it can "feel like" seal clubbing if the pro isn't handicapping or if the novice is refusing to learn etc....

    IT can also reflect different attitudes; some people really do just want to push models forward; roll dice and see something cool happen without learning the ins and outs of the game at a greater level. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607557.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607557.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     triplegrim wrote:
    .

    Btw. What type of battlefield has fixed charges irl? Mechanisms should come from the irl situation, not just be 8 inches fixed for every unit.


    .


    This thread is interesting as it shows how some fallacious ideas never die, despite being debunked a thousand times... I don't really have to write again, just copy-paste...

    Cyel wrote:



    Ah, the old "but in real life!" fallacy, one would think it's been properly put to sleep by now.

    Do you think ever regular march was done at exactly the same range every time? Always in a direction exactly like the one planned? Was every shooting attack at exactly the same range regardless of minor variations in the wind?



    You can find a real life excuse to make everything in such a game random. Life is pretty random after all. But for some reason designers don't. Why? Because just sitting there watching the dice being rolled and consulting random tables is a miserable experience that hardly deserves the name "game". Thus certain things are abstracted to offer an interesting intellectual challenge instead of randomapalooza that hardly shows who is the better player and makes better moves.

    Do you complain about units in HoMM 3 always going a set number of spaces? What about armies in Imperial 2030 or A Game of Thrones? What about prices of properties in Monopoly? Why doesn't Great Western Trail properly represent the mechanisms of supply and demand if Power Grid or Brass do it?

    Exactly as Overread mentions this abstraction can be applied to a different level in different titles. Randomness serves many important purposes in design - for example it evens the playing field between players of varying skill or experience or muddies the perception of imbalance and hides the differences between sloppily playtested options. Randomness is certainly to stay, but to varying degrees in different titles directed at different audiences (for example families who play with kids need heavy randomness not to make the kids lose every time).

    Not happy with Brass or Arkwright being decided solely by players' decisions? You can play Monopoly. A Game of Thrones or Imperial too deterministic and player-driven for your taste? You can play Risk.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607559.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607559.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors WAAC or That Guy? Then…erm…surely everyone that’s ever won a game of WHFB ever has been WAAC or That Guy?

    Because knowing your onions in the movement phase is how you go about Glorious Victory. That’s when you angle yourself right, setup traps, get on their flank or rear and generally give them a hard time by correctly stacking combat in your favour.

    My favourite? My old 2,000 point Dark Elf monster army. Two characters. One a Lord on a Dragon, one a Beastmaster on Manticore. Push one up each flank, and land threatening a unit each.

    Turn to face me? And it’s the old switcheroo, as they took advantage of Large Target (can draw LoS over intervening units) and Fly (can move and charge over intervening units) to hit you in the rear. Don’t turn to face, and depending what’s what, each one takes a unit in the flank, or if it looks like a tougher fight, both jump the same unit, one per flank and give it a horrendously one sided kicking.

    Some might say “two flying monster am the WAAC”, but keep in mind they gobbled up all my character slots, so I had zero magic whatsoever. An inherent list weakness i offset by….cunning moves and playing to my strengths. And hoping to heck your Cannons weren’t accurate or doing an exist, because those could ruin my day quick.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607571.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607571.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Random charge distance adds risk management to gameplay, to a risk management game, that is fun, because of risk management. None of this nonesense of so-called "modern game design" has been proven to add to actual enjoyment of game, it serves only to streamline for the sake of streamline, to dumb-down for the sole purpose of dumbing down. A disgusting practice that should have been discarded long ago if not pushed by college graduates filled with impractical ideas they have been taught by those who chose to lock themselves in ivory towers.

    I'm glade random charge distance is back, it's called risk management, in a risk management game; things shouldn't be predictable, nothing is, nor should all games be. More dice, for I all care.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607572.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607572.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     triplegrim wrote:

    Btw. What type of battlefield has fixed charges irl? Mechanisms should come from the irl situation, not just be 8 inches fixed for every unit.
    well, the same that allows for fixed march distance
    if you want IRL situation, you can but than you have to do it for everything

    and random movement is not the place were such rules are added but if you want more "realism" you need more detailed terrain and weather rules and not having 1 thing in the game being random and the others not
    otherwise having M+D6 charge but 2xM marching makes no sense because IRL the uneven ground would hinder both

    the rule has nothing to do with reality but is there to help newer players against veterans by adding randomness so a veteran cannot run over another player if the dice are not with him

    and this is something GW added to all their games one way or anther, not because of reality but to even out player skill]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607573.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607573.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lcmiracle wrote:
    Oh .

    Random charge distance adds risk management to gameplay, to a risk management game, that is fun, because of risk management.


    Cyel wrote:


    You can call it risk management or weighted decisions, but with high-variance, high-impact rolls like charge range (especially when you want a combined charge to do something) at the end of the day it's just dice arbitrarily punishing one player and rewarding the other for nothing.




    And of course +1 to what Mad Doc Grotsnik and Kodos are saying.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607576.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607576.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    It doesn't.

    Levelling the playing skill field would be a random element with a weighted element so that it had a bias to favour the weaker/less experienced/losing player in a situation.

    Because there's no weighting attached its a simply neutral element to the game that is neither helping the weaker player win nor hobbling the better player.

    Instead what it does is introduce a layer of risk management and random to the game which a better player will account for in their tactics. Indeed random in the right places can even be a hindrance to a newer player because they don't yet know how to judge situations to account for the random.



    Eg to stick with charges. An experienced player will know that whilst they can roll 2D6 to get a charge distance and it MIGHT give them 12inches; they know that statistically that is very unlikely to happen.
    So they might well not charge until they are within 6 inches because that's a value that they are more likely to get or beat and thus be able to make the charge.

    The less experienced player might well declare charges from much further away and put more hope in the dice rolling well for them in a given situation. Because they've not yet learned how to play with probabilities.




    Indeed I'd argue that having random makes the game harder for newbies compared to having fixed values. Fixed values give 100% known outcomes each time, every time. So you can quickly and easily learn from them.

    Random means that a newbie can shoot a non-anti-tank unit at a tank and kill it on one occasion because of dice rolls on both sides going to the extremes. This might make them then use that unit as an anti-tank unit in the future and it might take many failed situations for them to realise that its not a good anti-tank unit and that they are using them incorrectly .]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607580.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607580.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    There's no reason to change the charge as is known, except for change sake.

    Editions were made to improve the game, GW. Not that you'd remember that.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607583.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607583.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607584.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607584.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors FPS game to make newbies win head-on encounters at least sometimes which directly affected the ratings of player experience in said game.

    Whether GW does that for this reason, or just to obfuscate the fact that they can't come up with interesting player driven interplay that, for example, makes charges a good idea only sometimes, depending on other factors, is hard to determine.

    I also disagree with his example of an experienced player only attempting charges with a high % of success. They will still fail sometimes and it will still feel arbitrary and random and unfair (because it is). But I think the worst thing about it is how it devastates the idea of coordinated attacks. Even with 80% chance of a successful charge if you want/need to perform a multicharge on a target, the probability of two units making it is just 2/3, for three units it's a straight coin toss whether you get what you need into combat and win or you get only some of units into combat and they get slaughtered by a superior enemy that needs to be attacked with coordination from different sides.

    The result - nobody bothers with seting up interesting multicharges, bacause even with very good positioning the chances are awful. You give up on challenging positioning to encircle and just build units that can smash into each other head on, because good positioning for a multicharge will get your units killed half of the time for no fault of your own.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607587.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607587.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Overread wrote:
    Instead what it does is introduce a layer of risk management and random to the game which a better player will account for in their tactics.


    Disagree when it's done to the extremes of a flat 2d6 roll. Example, Deep Strike. The old system with scatter was high skill, requiring weighing your placement options vs odds of scatter distance and directions that might make the unit useless or even DOA. Now you plonk the unit down and then you either roll a 9 or you don't.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607589.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607589.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    If the game have enough randomness that can't really be played around much then it might favor the newer players and giving them the off chance that they sometimes can get a win they shouldn't have gotten. Sometimes they will be crushed extra hard though since the more experienced players will be able to take advantage of when the dice are in their favor even better.

    If the randomness is off the charts and can have too much of an impact then it doesn't really favor newer players vs experienced players but rather players who don't want to actually play but rather watch random stuff happen. What is the point of playing against someone if the game is just a bunch of random dice rolls you have no control over? Could just as well play solo then.

    It is a balancing act. If you have too little randomness in the game it might lead to stand offs or making it so the better players might never lose (depending on game mechanics but the more like chess it is the more favor it is for skilled players) but if it is too much it might not be worth playing. You can have quite a lot of randomness and still have a huge skill factor as long as their are tools to mitigate the bad luck or in some way smooth out the probability curves. Warmachine did have a lot of random rolls that could have a massive impact but it was still a game that massively favored the experienced player over the new one way more than any GW game I have ever played. But there you also had a lot of tools to help you set up favorable situations.

    MESBG can look quite random at times but the more you play it the more you see how to mitigate what looks like randomness and set up favorable situations. You might not have much say over who has priority or winning move/combat/duel roll offs but luckily each individual roll is usually not that impactful so you can still play around it and come out on top in the end.

    Until I have all the rules and see how they interact I will try to not assume too much on how random certain things in TOW is. It might be way more random than what we think or it might have so many things to mitigate it that they could just as well have used fixed values for charges after all the buffs/spells/abilities have been accounted for.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607600.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607600.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW style, certain armies will be better at working around them than others and those will be the armies played by veterans because the less random the game is, the better

     Overread wrote:
    The idea that random helps level the playing field is a false impression.
    It doesn't.
    Depends on the rules, fully random 2D6 charge let players blame the dice if it does not work and not "I did not get the charge because I played wrong"

    and I don't think this new, not-so-random, mechanic helps at at all, neither have you fully random stuff that infantry can charge cavalry on a lucky roll if they are not staying outside 12" but you also don't have the security as a double one can still screw you

    double 1 is a gimmick, it is there in Kings of War as well and not many people like it but it adds a level of uncertainty that even the perfect plan can fail
    yet TOW has that on more than one part of the game, which means more possibilities for the perfect plan to fail which is simply there for people blaming the dice (instead of themselves)]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607609.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607609.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Klickor wrote:
    Mostly some randomness might favor the weaker player in one off games. But most often over multiple games, especially if in a tournament format, the stronger players will usually be able to take advantage even there since they know how to play around it much better. When they are unlucky they have already prepared for it and when they are lucky they can capitalize on it better.

    If the game have enough randomness that can't really be played around much then it might favor the newer players and giving them the off chance that they sometimes can get a win they shouldn't have gotten. Sometimes they will be crushed extra hard though since the more experienced players will be able to take advantage of when the dice are in their favor even better.

    If the randomness is off the charts and can have too much of an impact then it doesn't really favor newer players vs experienced players but rather players who don't want to actually play but rather watch random stuff happen. What is the point of playing against someone if the game is just a bunch of random dice rolls you have no control over? Could just as well play solo then.

    It is a balancing act. If you have too little randomness in the game it might lead to stand offs or making it so the better players might never lose (depending on game mechanics but the more like chess it is the more favor it is for skilled players) but if it is too much it might not be worth playing. You can have quite a lot of randomness and still have a huge skill factor as long as their are tools to mitigate the bad luck or in some way smooth out the probability curves. Warmachine did have a lot of random rolls that could have a massive impact but it was still a game that massively favored the experienced player over the new one way more than any GW game I have ever played. But there you also had a lot of tools to help you set up favorable situations.


    FWIW, 2D6-pick-highest-plus-Move is really not all that random to begin with. For Move 4", the chances of success are:
    5"- Auto
    6"- 97%
    7"- 89%
    8"- 75%
    9"- 56%
    10"- 31%

    So the difference between your absolute maximum charge range and a 75% chance of success is all of two inches. Get one inch closer than that and the odds are better than rolling a 2+ on one die. This is largely mitigable randomness, which cannot be said for any of the random mechanics where the player has no ability to improve the roll, like leadership tests or rolls to-hit.

    Every once in a while you're still going to flub it- but a decent player doesn't plan their wargame strategy around the assumption that all their 2+ rolls will succeed. And if there are any mechanisms to re-roll the dice, that will certainly take the sting out of the occasional snake eyes.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607611.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607611.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    2d6, pick highest + Movement for charge is…fine for me. Genuinely.

    It not only causes me to consider how close I want to get to enemy lines, but if I’m the aggressor, what’s my plan in case I whiff the roll. So for me, it adds to the overall considerations in play.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607612.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607612.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW designers sully themselves by thinking about "skill".

    The issue with randomness is less about stronger/weaker players - its about stopping the scenario of "this always happens".

    My Elves/Skaven/all Cav army *always* getting to charge your Humans/Orcs/Skeletons is kind of dull. Especially if the charge is a major-deciding factor of who wins or loses.

    Now you can say "as the Elf/Skaven/all Cav army" that its very skillful on my part that I can deploy to always ensure I get to charge and don't get charged. But the point is my opponent - due to inferior M" - has no choice. They can only hope that I can't judge a few inches. (In reality, the solution is to ditch M4" infantry units).

    Its like this from Grotsnik above:
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
    Turn to face me? And it’s the old switcheroo, as they took advantage of Large Target (can draw LoS over intervening units) and Fly (can move and charge over intervening units) to hit you in the rear. Don’t turn to face, and depending what’s what, each one takes a unit in the flank, or if it looks like a tougher fight, both jump the same unit, one per flank and give it a horrendously one sided kicking.


    This isn't "WAAC" in my view - but fly monsters jumping around units is exploiting kind of awful rules, that have been awful a long time. You are getting to do something - and your opponent can't really do anything about it. Its often I think been argued that the solution should have been allowing reforms and "short charges" - possibly by a musician or something - to avoid this dancing out of charge arcs while being theoretically just meters away. But I don't think that's happening - or at least not from the rules we've seen.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607628.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607628.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    With random distances and pre-measuring, an opponent can at least advise a newbie by telling them the chances of each success, and the odd fail on the part of the veteran can makes things not seem so stacked against the newcomer.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607654.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607654.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors 2D6 discard lowest for infantry does not change much and there is no real benefit from having it

    M+D6+2D6 discard lowest, is on the level of 8th and means units with this rule have large advantage

    so my general problem is that there is no real gain in doing it other than trying to please the fans of 8th Edition without being too much for fans of older Editions


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Shakalooloo wrote:
    In my experience, the biggest downside in fixed charge ranges is that it puts off new players. Unless they're savants as distance judgement, they'll fail charges left and right while their opponent miraculously closes every single time. It's feel-bad, and there's no real way to advise someone on how to better judge distances other than get better eyes.

    With random distances and pre-measuring, an opponent can at least advise a newbie by telling them the chances of each success, and the odd fail on the part of the veteran can makes things not seem so stacked against the newcomer.
    why is it that the only possibility is fixed ranges and no measurements or random ranges + measurement

    not like any other game has fixed ranges+measurement and it works fine]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607666.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607666.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Tyel wrote:
    I ".

    My Elves/Skaven/all Cav army *always* getting to charge your Humans/Orcs/Skeletons is kind of dull. Especially if the charge is a major-deciding factor of who wins or loses.

    .


    The thing is, in a more player-driven game, factors such as use of skirmishers or fast cav or magic or terrain or scenario or special rules etc can absolutely mean that faster units *not always* get to charge - for example because they would abandon the objective or because they are cavalry and opposing infantry uses defensive positions in a forest where cavalry is crap or because they risk being stranded by enemy fleeing as a charge reaction or because a mage put a LOS blocking cloud or a patch of difficult terrain in their way etc etc. Options are infinite and infinitely more interesting than "let's roll and let the game play itself".]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607674.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607674.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Cyel wrote:
    Tyel wrote:
    I ".

    My Elves/Skaven/all Cav army *always* getting to charge your Humans/Orcs/Skeletons is kind of dull. Especially if the charge is a major-deciding factor of who wins or loses.

    .


    The thing is, in a more player-driven game, factors such as use of skirmishers or fast cav or magic or terrain or scenario or special rules etc can absolutely mean that faster units *not always* get to charge - for example because they would abandon the objective or because they are cavalry and opposing infantry uses defensive positions in a forest where cavalry is crap or because they risk being stranded by enemy fleeing as a charge reaction or because a mage put a LOS blocking cloud or a patch of difficult terrain in their way etc etc. Options are infinite and infinitely more interesting than "let's roll and let the game play itself".


    Stop with your sound arguments of good game design.
    That‘s not something most players of GW games are used to and only confuses them.

    Btw, why are we still talking about random vs fixed charge ranges?
    The desicion for TOW was made and we will have to live with it if we want to play by its rules.
    Much more interesting is how important getting the charge will be, how this ability is accounted for in the unit‘s price and what options for counterplay there is outside of rolling better than your opponent.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607679.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607679.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607682.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607682.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Cyel wrote:
    Options are infinite and infinitely more interesting than "let's roll and let the game play itself".


    This hyperbole is silly. Rolling to hit, rolling for damage, rolling for leadership, rolling for magic, rolling for anything else in the game- those are all taken for granted, it's a dice-based wargame. But rolling for charge distance? Suddenly your player agency evaporates in a puff of smoke, helpless to influence anything occurring on the board, a mere spectator to a game that plays itself. All because one more mechanic is (somewhat) randomized too.

    Even some of the options you listed, like the enemy fleeing as a charge reaction or a mage casting a spell to place a LOS blocking cloud, are player decisions that have uncertain outcomes determined by dice. Why not complain about how you have no options and the game plays itself because you have to roll for those? It's fundamentally no different from the decision of where to position your troops and the ensuing dice rolls that will determine if they successfully make it into combat or not. You have options. You don't have guarantees.

    A wargame doesn't have to be purely deterministic for your choices to matter. There are some out there, but GW doesn't make them and never has. Neither is randomness automatically a good thing. It all depends on the implementation, as with anything else.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607692.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607692.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607704.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607704.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors WHFB needed was the ability to "move" into combat, not "charge" but "move"

    as in any legal move that ended up in contact initiated combat. no charge bonuses, no charge reactions (and no march moves into it, just a normal move) - include shuffling sideways or to the rear.

    point being all of a sudden standing next to the enemy is no longer 'safe', nor is sitting just out of arc, nor is sitting at silly angles. you get contacted, you fight

    likewise "If I cannot conform to you, you conform to me, if thats not possible the units touch and only half of each front rank fights"]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607740.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607740.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I'm glad my Dumb Uneducated Opinion also spawned some talk. I'm only an 8th ed player with only two dozen games under my belt (a long time ago) so any theoryhammer from me is talking out my arse. Fast cav being able to yeet directly into back lines easily just *sounds* unbalanced, when my recollection of moving units to intercept anything other than "in your front arc" always felt clumsy/slow.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607741.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607741.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    leopard wrote:
    the one rule I always thought WHFB needed was the ability to "move" into combat, not "charge" but "move"

    as in any legal move that ended up in contact initiated combat. no charge bonuses, no charge reactions (and no march moves into it, just a normal move) - include shuffling sideways or to the rear.

    point being all of a sudden standing next to the enemy is no longer 'safe', nor is sitting just out of arc, nor is sitting at silly angles. you get contacted, you fight

    likewise "If I cannot conform to you, you conform to me, if thats not possible the units touch and only half of each front rank fights"


    If pike units ever become a thing, like estalia, then i'd expect such a move to be reasonable to be implemented post haste.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607742.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607742.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Not Online!!! wrote:
    leopard wrote:
    the one rule I always thought WHFB needed was the ability to "move" into combat, not "charge" but "move"

    as in any legal move that ended up in contact initiated combat. no charge bonuses, no charge reactions (and no march moves into it, just a normal move) - include shuffling sideways or to the rear.

    point being all of a sudden standing next to the enemy is no longer 'safe', nor is sitting just out of arc, nor is sitting at silly angles. you get contacted, you fight

    likewise "If I cannot conform to you, you conform to me, if thats not possible the units touch and only half of each front rank fights"


    If pike units ever become a thing, like estalia, then i'd expect such a move to be reasonable to be implemented post haste.


    decently done pike units would be nice, not easy to move about but in effect counting the sides as "front" if charged]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607748.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607748.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    leopard wrote:
    Not Online!!! wrote:
    leopard wrote:
    the one rule I always thought WHFB needed was the ability to "move" into combat, not "charge" but "move"

    as in any legal move that ended up in contact initiated combat. no charge bonuses, no charge reactions (and no march moves into it, just a normal move) - include shuffling sideways or to the rear.

    point being all of a sudden standing next to the enemy is no longer 'safe', nor is sitting just out of arc, nor is sitting at silly angles. you get contacted, you fight

    likewise "If I cannot conform to you, you conform to me, if thats not possible the units touch and only half of each front rank fights"


    If pike units ever become a thing, like estalia, then i'd expect such a move to be reasonable to be implemented post haste.


    decently done pike units would be nice, not easy to move about but in effect counting the sides as "front" if charged


    That would need to be a special 'square' formation rather than an inherent feature of pikes - attacking a pike block in the flank while they're facing forward is pretty effective otherwise.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607768.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607768.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    leopard wrote:
    Not Online!!! wrote:
    leopard wrote:
    the one rule I always thought WHFB needed was the ability to "move" into combat, not "charge" but "move"

    as in any legal move that ended up in contact initiated combat. no charge bonuses, no charge reactions (and no march moves into it, just a normal move) - include shuffling sideways or to the rear.

    point being all of a sudden standing next to the enemy is no longer 'safe', nor is sitting just out of arc, nor is sitting at silly angles. you get contacted, you fight

    likewise "If I cannot conform to you, you conform to me, if thats not possible the units touch and only half of each front rank fights"


    If pike units ever become a thing, like estalia, then i'd expect such a move to be reasonable to be implemented post haste.


    decently done pike units would be nice, not easy to move about but in effect counting the sides as "front" if charged


    Why on earth would a pike unit treat flanks same as front? Historically, pike blocks were even MORE vulnerable to flanking attacks than other infantry, simply because it was impossible for the 16' pikes to all raise, turn, and lower - and it has to be done nearly simultaneously or pikes get dropped and people DIE - in time to threaten a flanker.

    That's why most early modern battles were decided by whose cavalry won the flank battle, and restrained from pursuing fleeing cavalry so they could turn and flank the pike blocks.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607779.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607779.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607805.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607805.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Vulcan wrote:
    leopard wrote:
    Not Online!!! wrote:
    leopard wrote:
    the one rule I always thought WHFB needed was the ability to "move" into combat, not "charge" but "move"

    as in any legal move that ended up in contact initiated combat. no charge bonuses, no charge reactions (and no march moves into it, just a normal move) - include shuffling sideways or to the rear.

    point being all of a sudden standing next to the enemy is no longer 'safe', nor is sitting just out of arc, nor is sitting at silly angles. you get contacted, you fight

    likewise "If I cannot conform to you, you conform to me, if thats not possible the units touch and only half of each front rank fights"


    If pike units ever become a thing, like estalia, then i'd expect such a move to be reasonable to be implemented post haste.


    decently done pike units would be nice, not easy to move about but in effect counting the sides as "front" if charged


    Why on earth would a pike unit treat flanks same as front? Historically, pike blocks were even MORE vulnerable to flanking attacks than other infantry, simply because it was impossible for the 16' pikes to all raise, turn, and lower - and it has to be done nearly simultaneously or pikes get dropped and people DIE - in time to threaten a flanker.

    That's why most early modern battles were decided by whose cavalry won the flank battle, and restrained from pursuing fleeing cavalry so they could turn and flank the pike blocks.


    Meanwhile the swiss gwalthufe without either arty or cav.


    But if gw implements pikes and estalia, alows squares and makes them decent ob the mechanical front then i'd drop my chaos warriors in an instant and join estalia. The urge to poke is strong.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607815.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607815.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607828.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607828.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     NAVARRO wrote:
    All this flanking talk brings me back very very old memories when you had to guess distances charges and I destroyed my opponent army with an extremely accurate flank charge guess with my chaos knights... massacre! Not sure what edition it was.


    Chaos knights were often a class for themselves, especially with lances. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607836.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607836.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors

    leopard wrote:


    point being all of a sudden standing next to the enemy is no longer 'safe', nor is sitting just out of arc, nor is sitting at silly angles. you get contacted, you fight



    There is another very easy partial solution to that: like in Warmaster and many other wargames, LoS is 180º full frontal (i.e. not 45º degree to each side from the front).]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607841.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607841.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    SU-152 wrote:
    Loving what I see so far: premeasurement + charges with limited randomness

    leopard wrote:


    point being all of a sudden standing next to the enemy is no longer 'safe', nor is sitting just out of arc, nor is sitting at silly angles. you get contacted, you fight



    There is another very easy partial solution to that: like in Warmaster and many other wargames, LoS is 180º full frontal (i.e. not 45º degree to each side from the front).


    Oh man, thats such a simple solution. Chefs kiss again.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607844.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607844.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607845.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607845.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors LOS is 360. Someone in the rear is going to spot an enemy moving past and shout about it.

    In 3rd edition, a unit could conduct maneuvers as part of the charge.

    There were penalties and restrictions within 4" of the enemy. but you could do a right face, redress ranks, and charge.

    If you failed a maneuver test or attempted one in close proximity during a charge your charging unit was unformed in the first round.

    Being unformed meant a loss of all charge bonuses and if you lost the first round of combat you auto-break. Not a really good situation to be in but a risk worth taking in some situations.

    There was no pre-measuring and the result of a failed charge was the unit making a double move and being unformed. Usually just short of the intended target.

    3rd edition was my favorite in spite of the odd bits. I listened to an interview with Rick Priestly and he commented about that version and how he thought it was too complex. He seemed to have less of a roll in making 3rd edition than he did in later versions.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607853.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607853.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Darkial wrote:
    I actually thought that something like "you can charge to the flanks half of the distance and to the rear a quarter of the distance" could help some of the weird tactics of blocking a big unit with a small light cavalry unit.


    Ooooh no! Nope nope nope!

    The whole point of turning your flank is the reward given by the game mechanics. If I’ve manoeuvred cleverly, then you should be punished for not seeing it coming. Being deft with large, ponderous blocks of infantry is a huge part of the skill required for the game.

    It would also make Fast Cavalry pretty crap. Typically you don’t see them in large units. They’re there to harass and distract, and if you’re lucky run over Artillery, Lone characters, or come in with a rear charge assist to really swing a combat. And of course, chase down already fleeing units if you’d prefer to maintain your overall battle line (pursing in isolation can lead to the victorious unit out of position with its own flanks exposed). Allowing big blocks to easily counter Fast Cavalry entirely defeats the point of Fast Cavalry.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607956.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607956.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Darkial wrote:
    I actually thought that something like "you can charge to the flanks half of the distance and to the rear a quarter of the distance" could help some of the weird tactics of blocking a big unit with a small light cavalry unit.


    You had to overcharge, then move. Then you lost ground in the wheel, and by then you were trapped, if it was an infantry unit. In Cav charges, it was a tactic to overshoot the charge, then wheel into the enemy unit's flank. Two or more ranks it was a good deal. One, it was suicide.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607964.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607964.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Good moves should be rewarded, bad moves should be punished with no artificially created "out of jail" cards to compensate for mistakes (that's why I really hated the Insane Courage rule when it was introduced in 7th)

    I actually think that the more opportunities for making mistakes (and exploiting opponent's mistakes) the better the game (any game), as there are more instances when the difference between someone playing better and the one playing worse can manifest.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607966.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607966.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607971.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607971.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
    Darkial wrote:
    I actually thought that something like "you can charge to the flanks half of the distance and to the rear a quarter of the distance" could help some of the weird tactics of blocking a big unit with a small light cavalry unit.


    Ooooh no! Nope nope nope!

    The whole point of turning your flank is the reward given by the game mechanics. If I’ve manoeuvred cleverly, then you should be punished for not seeing it coming. Being deft with large, ponderous blocks of infantry is a huge part of the skill required for the game.

    It would also make Fast Cavalry pretty crap. Typically you don’t see them in large units. They’re there to harass and distract, and if you’re lucky run over Artillery, Lone characters, or come in with a rear charge assist to really swing a combat. And of course, chase down already fleeing units if you’d prefer to maintain your overall battle line (pursing in isolation can lead to the victorious unit out of position with its own flanks exposed). Allowing big blocks to easily counter Fast Cavalry entirely defeats the point of Fast Cavalry.


    I remember vividly exactly how clever I felt when I placed my flying, entirely free to move as he pleases Liche Priest an inch behind an enemy block and the soldiers in the back rank couldn't so much as fart his way while he blasted them with magic missiles. Truly, I let that tactical brilliance nurture me to this day.

    What makes some sense against conventional units turns into a complete farce when it involves units that can just ignore restrictions like that. This is something that should be addressed. There's nothing clever about playing an entirely different game than anybody else.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607979.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607979.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    but steep learning curves are bad and cause new players to quit the game in frustration because experienced players take advantage of their mistakes and grind them into sand. /s


    Honestly a huge huge amount of this depends not on the game but on the players and their attitudes. It also depends on the company too. If the rules are well presented and easily read and there are lots of official guides and tactical tips and such then even a complex game can be very popular.

    The issues come when you've local player groups that are hyper competitive and not friendly; when there's a big generational gap between newbies and experienced (ergo no to little intermediate group) and when the parent company hasn't formatted the rules well and/or doesn't produce much guide material in addition.


    GW gets around a few of them even if their writing isn't top rate. They could still fall down ,but the bonus is it would more likely be one game not many. Plus as they are targeting more experienced old-school players with this game they can likely accept that the players have played a wargame before and do know at least the basics. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607984.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607984.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Vulcan wrote:
    leopard wrote:
    Not Online!!! wrote:
    leopard wrote:
    the one rule I always thought WHFB needed was the ability to "move" into combat, not "charge" but "move"

    as in any legal move that ended up in contact initiated combat. no charge bonuses, no charge reactions (and no march moves into it, just a normal move) - include shuffling sideways or to the rear.

    point being all of a sudden standing next to the enemy is no longer 'safe', nor is sitting just out of arc, nor is sitting at silly angles. you get contacted, you fight

    likewise "If I cannot conform to you, you conform to me, if thats not possible the units touch and only half of each front rank fights"


    If pike units ever become a thing, like estalia, then i'd expect such a move to be reasonable to be implemented post haste.


    decently done pike units would be nice, not easy to move about but in effect counting the sides as "front" if charged


    Why on earth would a pike unit treat flanks same as front? Historically, pike blocks were even MORE vulnerable to flanking attacks than other infantry, simply because it was impossible for the 16' pikes to all raise, turn, and lower - and it has to be done nearly simultaneously or pikes get dropped and people DIE - in time to threaten a flanker.

    That's why most early modern battles were decided by whose cavalry won the flank battle, and restrained from pursuing fleeing cavalry so they could turn and flank the pike blocks.


    there certainly were pike units (think Swiss and a few others) who were trained to be able to present spikes to the flanks if required - wasn't the full force for a push of pike, but it was enough to keep cavalry away]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607996.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11607996.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    leopard wrote:

    there certainly were pike units (think Swiss and a few others) who were trained to be able to present spikes to the flanks if required - wasn't the full force for a push of pike, but it was enough to keep cavalry away


    It's called 'form square', and yes, two or three ranks of pike face every direction. Not changing front to back or side at a moment's notice.

    There would probably have to be a fairly high minimum unit size to make it useful. No point in having 'fight in three ranks' and you only have one or two facing that direction. It's an immobile formation as well, as there's no practical way to march sideways. Good for sitting on and defending an objective, not so good for advancing to take one.

    Still, I wouldn't be upset if some sort of 'form square' mechanic was introduced into the game. The trick is doing it without making Dwarf Oathstone players feel they've been gypped out of something special.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608006.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608006.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    would be good to see more of that sort of thing in the game though, Ld test to do it quickly or without to take a turn]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608011.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608011.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    and the 360° pike formation was not very mobile, hence it was countered by light cavalry with guns doing hit and run attacks
    which again was countered by using gun formations as main weapons and the pikes were just there to protect the flanks
    forming squares came up with the bajonett, when gun and spear were combined and the gun formation was their own flank protection against cavalry

    yet the point is, the units never did those things on their own or was it ever possible to do it as an emergency solution
    if the opponent was in charge range, it was too late to start changing formation and it was always ordered from the commanders and never done by the soldiers on their own

    hence it is on the player to change the formation to face the biggest threat and not on the game to add fail safe mechanics for not getting outplayed]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608013.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608013.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    leopard wrote:

    decently done pike units would be nice, not easy to move about but in effect counting the sides as "front" if charged

    Sorry, what?
    That's not how pike formations worked at all.
    Historical pike formations were very strong to the front, but had exceptionally vulnerable on the flanks.

    That sounds more like a war wagon.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608017.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608017.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    forming squares was much later

    and the 360° pike formation was not very mobile, hence it was countered by light cavalry with guns doing hit and run attacks
    which again was countered by using gun formations as main weapons and the pikes were just there to protect the flanks
    forming squares came up with the bajonett, when gun and spear were combined and the gun formation was their own flank protection against cavalry

    yet the point is, the units never did those things on their own or was it ever possible to do it as an emergency solution
    if the opponent was in charge range, it was too late to start changing formation and it was always ordered from the commanders and never done by the soldiers on their own

    hence it is on the player to change the formation to face the biggest threat and not on the game to add fail safe mechanics for not getting outplayed


    but should at least be possible. make positioning matter, make protecting flanks matter. in effect make "I six dice this!" no longer the key to winning and make a lot of the nastier cavalry a bit harder to control once it starts moving - there are a lot of historical games that get all this sort of thing right that could quite easily be drawn from here]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608018.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608018.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Geifer wrote:
    I remember vividly exactly how clever I felt when I placed my flying, entirely free to move as he pleases Liche Priest an inch behind an enemy block and the soldiers in the back rank couldn't so much as fart his way while he blasted them with magic missiles. Truly, I let that tactical brilliance nurture me to this day.

    What makes some sense against conventional units turns into a complete farce when it involves units that can just ignore restrictions like that. This is something that should be addressed. There's nothing clever about playing an entirely different game than anybody else.


    This would be my issue. I'm not sure how anyone can be under the illusion that this is skilful.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608020.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608020.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Tyel wrote:
     Geifer wrote:
    I remember vividly exactly how clever I felt when I placed my flying, entirely free to move as he pleases Liche Priest an inch behind an enemy block and the soldiers in the back rank couldn't so much as fart his way while he blasted them with magic missiles. Truly, I let that tactical brilliance nurture me to this day.

    What makes some sense against conventional units turns into a complete farce when it involves units that can just ignore restrictions like that. This is something that should be addressed. There's nothing clever about playing an entirely different game than anybody else.


    This would be my issue. I'm not sure how anyone can be under the illusion that this is skilful.


    I dont disagree here but I think you identify the problematic thing wrong. The problem is the fast and maneuverable single character having too much freedom of movement coupled with disproportionate impact on a unit, not the unit being unable to charge backwards.

    I think the rule of thumb in such asymmetric game design should be that the ease of use of a game element should be in inverse proportion to its power.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608028.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608028.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors The next person who drags this thread off topic is getting a month off from the site, I am sick to the back teeth of it. Seriously, Stop it. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608059.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608059.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608073.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608073.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    leopard wrote:

    But should at least be possible. make positioning matter, make protecting flanks matter. in effect make "I six dice this!" no longer the key to winning and make a lot of the nastier cavalry a bit harder to control once it starts moving - there are a lot of historical games that get all this sort of thing right that could quite easily be drawn from here

    I would also prefer that, but it's not the aim here.

    The main take away from (especially) the most recent article, for me, is:
    Warhammer the Old World will be like playing WHFB as it had been. It can't be exactly like all the editions at once, but it looks like it will have the same general feel and mindset.
    GW looks to be playing it safe and giving the fans of Warhammer what they want.
    How well they're doing that is another matter that I am not in a position to comment on because I am not a nostalgic Warhammer veteran or fan.

    These movement rules (and hero phase rules) look like a lot of rules, fussing about and keeping track of details with questionable impact on the game or the experience of playing it.
    It put me off Warhammer back in the day and it will put me off The Old World.

    That doesn't make The Old World bad or wrong though just not the game for me (again), which makes my preferences irrelevant.
    I will be playing other games with less fussing about (the names of which are off topic) while the people who actually want this thing and will (hopefully) enjoy it.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608074.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608074.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors HH they get the mix about right

    blocks moving and wheeling was always a key part of how the rank & file stuff worked, it worked better with four models wide than five models wide.

    the new march column I think also is a good idea so long as changing formation doesn't take an entire turn except for garbage quality troops when frankly it should as they really should not be as flexible as well drilled troops.

    if they fix the worst of 8th, while taking the best of earlier I think it could be a worthwhile game, the signs so far is at least those behind it appear to actually want it to be a good game]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608079.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608079.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Geifer wrote:
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
    Darkial wrote:
    I actually thought that something like "you can charge to the flanks half of the distance and to the rear a quarter of the distance" could help some of the weird tactics of blocking a big unit with a small light cavalry unit.


    Ooooh no! Nope nope nope!

    The whole point of turning your flank is the reward given by the game mechanics. If I’ve manoeuvred cleverly, then you should be punished for not seeing it coming. Being deft with large, ponderous blocks of infantry is a huge part of the skill required for the game.

    It would also make Fast Cavalry pretty crap. Typically you don’t see them in large units. They’re there to harass and distract, and if you’re lucky run over Artillery, Lone characters, or come in with a rear charge assist to really swing a combat. And of course, chase down already fleeing units if you’d prefer to maintain your overall battle line (pursing in isolation can lead to the victorious unit out of position with its own flanks exposed). Allowing big blocks to easily counter Fast Cavalry entirely defeats the point of Fast Cavalry.


    I remember vividly exactly how clever I felt when I placed my flying, entirely free to move as he pleases Liche Priest an inch behind an enemy block and the soldiers in the back rank couldn't so much as fart his way while he blasted them with magic missiles. Truly, I let that tactical brilliance nurture me to this day.

    What makes some sense against conventional units turns into a complete farce when it involves units that can just ignore restrictions like that. This is something that should be addressed. There's nothing clever about playing an entirely different game than anybody else.


    Yet with Fly, he’d have been able to do that from…pretty much any position, range of his Magic Missile allowing. At least if memory serves, him being there wouldn’t have prevented that unit from Marching. And being on his Jack Jones, he’s not exactly in a particularly safe position. Against my Dark Elves? I can send Harpies after him, maybe a unit of Shades or Dark Riders. Or just pick him off with ranged units, because a lone character, especially a squishy caster is a nice wee target, regardless of the additional -1 to hit. Just two wounds and that’s him dealt with, and a decent slice of VP’s in my piggy bank.

    It’s also a super niche occurrence, given single infantry models that could Fly were rare, and indeed required a Magic Item. Unless they were a Vampire. And you’re still paying points for that character model, more so if they’re a caster, with all the risks of me deciding “okay dokey skip, 20 Repeater Crossbow Bolts coming right up!”

    And that’s been Warhammer ever since I’ve been playing (4th Ed). You let enemies get behind your lines, and they’ve outplayed you. If I’ve not allowed for any countermeasure to units marauding behind my lines? That’s entirely on me. If I have? Thanks for the VPs and sacrificing one of your precious character slots. Both treats are much appreciated.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608085.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608085.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     ingtaer wrote:
    The next person who drags this thread off topic is getting a month off from the site, I am sick to the back teeth of it. Seriously, Stop it.


    If you're going to bring out the big red font and start threatening time-out, can you actually tell us which of the like five distinct topics on the past two pages is/are considered off-topic?

    Otherwise I don't know what you really expect here.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608122.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608122.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors KoW" are both OT for this thread. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608126.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608126.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors Show? Entire tomb kings lineup?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608139.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608139.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors

    Also, I would love to see the 5th ed era of dragon profiles. As much as I liked the 6th ed design philosophy, they were really conservative on profiles.

    Pretty much nothing was greater than T6 - war machines excepted of course.

    Having the 6/4+ etc to wound capability would allow for greater Toughness values.

    So you don't have carnosaurs with T5, the same as the oldblood riding it...
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608143.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608143.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Hellebore wrote:
    Who thinks the charging strikes first rule will be there?


    Also, I would love to see the 5th ed era of dragon profiles. As much as I liked the 6th ed design philosophy, they were really conservative on profiles.

    Pretty much nothing was greater than T6 - war machines excepted of course.

    Having the 6/4+ etc to wound capability would allow for greater Toughness values.

    So you don't have carnosaurs with T5, the same as the oldblood riding it...


    I'm okay with a somewhat conservative approach, depending on what else is going on. The friend who got me into Warhammer used to tell stories about when his Wood Elves could shoot into combat involving a T7 Treeman risk-free as their arrows couldn't hurt it.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608148.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608148.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Hellebore wrote:
    Who thinks the charging strikes first rule will be there?

    Also, I would love to see the 5th ed era of dragon profiles. As much as I liked the 6th ed design philosophy, they were really conservative on profiles.

    Pretty much nothing was greater than T6 - war machines excepted of course.

    Having the 6/4+ etc to wound capability would allow for greater Toughness values.

    So you don't have carnosaurs with T5, the same as the oldblood riding it...


    8th sort of went back to the 5th edition profile so I think they'll keep doing that in TOW, ofc depends if it's gonna be 6/7/8 or 5/6/7 or something compeletly different, but if you paid attention in 8th, the also brought he Emperor Dragon type back to the game via the Storm of Magic supplement, bringing the profile up to 9/9. IMO too many dragons though... Personally I was pretty ok with the 8th Dragon Profiles, didn't like them adding the Emperor type as a separate profile, they could have just given the Star Dragons the upgrade option for wizard levels instead. They sorta did this with the War of the Beard campaign scenario in one of the latter White Dwarf issues, with just 1 optional wizard level.

    Also for the roll-after-roll for significantly higher WS/BS/T thing... at least for the to-wound rolls, I think it's fine as-it since Dragons will probably keep their scaly skin (+X) rule anyway, so lower strength attacks will be covered.





    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     nathan2004 wrote:
    Any guesses on what the next reveal will
    Show? Entire tomb kings lineup?


    TK is most likely, but I doubt the entire lineup since BRT had a long build-up to its reveal. We had already seem several Paladins on foot teases, as well as the Prophetess before their full reveal.
    I will LMAO if they are revealing some piece of terrain next Sat tho... ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608149.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608149.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    So T7-10 would have been invulnerable. Certainly moving to everything can always be wounded on a 6+ would change that, but then you need to give big things stronger armour to offset that.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608150.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608150.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Hellebore wrote:
    Who thinks the charging strikes first rule will be there?


    Also, I would love to see the 5th ed era of dragon profiles. As much as I liked the 6th ed design philosophy, they were really conservative on profiles.

    Pretty much nothing was greater than T6 - war machines excepted of course.

    Having the 6/4+ etc to wound capability would allow for greater Toughness values.

    So you don't have carnosaurs with T5, the same as the oldblood riding it...


    Honestly? I'm not confident they'll keep much of 6th ANYTHING at this point.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608158.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608158.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors yet so far we have a wider spread of reliable charges for infantry and 8th Edition randomness for cavalry

    so strike first on charge might be too much depending what else is there
    like strike first in charge could be countered by "everyone can fight back" to take out the importance of the random dice roll, yet if damage scales too high charges are devastating either way (you strike back but your unit is still gone) ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608195.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608195.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors Are we back to a huge core rulebook with extra army books? Or will GW do the old fashioned thing and put all the army lists in the back of the core rulebook?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608204.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608204.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Gimgamgoo wrote:
    Do we know anything yet on the way the rules and army lists will be released?
    Are we back to a huge core rulebook with extra army books? Or will GW do the old fashioned thing and put all the army lists in the back of the core rulebook?


    They said in previous previews they will release "core lists" for all existing armies similar to indexes at the release, then release books for various armies / campaigns in details. It's pretty clear we'll have a big rulebook at the start. They didn't seem to say the core lists will be in it (it would make the book too big anyway IMHO).]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608210.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608210.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors Intrigue at Court special rule for High Elves wher their army generals are selected at random?

    Getting your general to be an LD8 Mage instead of your LD10 Noble would suck pretty hard...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608212.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608212.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Hellebore wrote:
    Who thinks the charging strikes first rule will be there?


    Also, I would love to see the 5th ed era of dragon profiles. As much as I liked the 6th ed design philosophy, they were really conservative on profiles.

    Pretty much nothing was greater than T6 - war machines excepted of course.

    Having the 6/4+ etc to wound capability would allow for greater Toughness values.

    So you don't have carnosaurs with T5, the same as the oldblood riding it...


    I’m expecting Charging Units Strike First, as that’s been WHFB since I can remember. Indeed, High Elves trumping that with Always Strikes First were the exception.

    In terms of models? I think I may prefer the combined profiles first seen in End Times. Even the nastiest flying monster had a weak point of its rider. Of course that wasn’t itself an oversight but a design intent. Farting around atop a Dragon whilst not wearing much armour is risky, and I’m genuinely not bitter about the times my Dragon buggered off when its rider was killed (stupid Way Watchers. Stupid Killing Blow Arrows. Stupid Monster Reaction Test!). But I think the combined profiles might be a neater solution.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608215.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608215.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lcmiracle wrote:
    Speaking of 6th edition, what about that Intrigue at Court special rule for High Elves wher their army generals are selected at random?

    Getting your general to be an LD8 Mage instead of your LD10 Noble would suck pretty hard...


    Pretty much makes Seer Council the most viable build. Certainly doesn't discourage it...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608218.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608218.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Also, simultaneous attacking is good.

    8th combined profiles is interesting but I kind of prefer separate. Would you combine war machines as well?

    I think the 1-4 /5-6 to hit either is simple enough. But we'll see I suppose.

    I'm just looking forward to dwarfs with runic construction rules again. That's my favourite part for my favourite army.



    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608220.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608220.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Cyel wrote:
    Tyel wrote:
     Geifer wrote:
    I remember vividly exactly how clever I felt when I placed my flying, entirely free to move as he pleases Liche Priest an inch behind an enemy block and the soldiers in the back rank couldn't so much as fart his way while he blasted them with magic missiles. Truly, I let that tactical brilliance nurture me to this day.

    What makes some sense against conventional units turns into a complete farce when it involves units that can just ignore restrictions like that. This is something that should be addressed. There's nothing clever about playing an entirely different game than anybody else.


    This would be my issue. I'm not sure how anyone can be under the illusion that this is skilful.


    I dont disagree here but I think you identify the problematic thing wrong. The problem is the fast and maneuverable single character having too much freedom of movement coupled with disproportionate impact on a unit, not the unit being unable to charge backwards.

    I think the rule of thumb in such asymmetric game design should be that the ease of use of a game element should be in inverse proportion to its power.


    You're not wrong about what the problem is, but since GW wants fantastic elements in its fantasy game and heroes to feel impactful, it's a problem we should expect to persist.

    It's specifically ranged flying characters that can exploit their small base size because of the unwieldy nature of regimental movement, as well as LOS and limitations of missile troops. Short of denying these characters the ability to fly, which would at least in the case of a Tzeentch sorcerer on disc be super unfluffy (probably others as well), you'll have to find mitigating elements elsewhere.

    That doesn't mean you should abandon all restrictions for regimental blocks, but just off the top of my head you could for instance let a handful of soldiers walk into combat with a character that strays too close. They don't get a charge bonus, and leaving formation loses you some rank bonus on the main unit, but you could at least deter such characters from exploiting LOS restrictions unchallenged and possibly tie them up for a turn or two. Actually make dancing around an enemy unit a tactical option rather than the obvious correct choice it's been for as long as I played Fantasy.

     kodos wrote:
    that is a tricky one, the more random charges are, the less they should matter
    yet so far we have a wider spread of reliable charges for infantry and 8th Edition randomness for cavalry

    so strike first on charge might be too much depending what else is there
    like strike first in charge could be countered by "everyone can fight back" to take out the importance of the random dice roll, yet if damage scales too high charges are devastating either way (you strike back but your unit is still gone)


    The article mentions counter charge as a (conditional) charge reaction, with no explanation what exactly it does. I could see a charge letting you strike first against units standing their ground, while losing that bonus against units that opt to counter charge.

    Would be a bit of a trade-off. You guarantee that both units enter combat even if the charger rolls badly, but you dampen to blow to the charged unit (provided initiative doesn't still favor the charging unit).]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608223.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608223.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    IIRC charging was a positive, a spear or a lance was a positive and there were a few other modifiers

    in general higher initiative models would go first, but this could be altered tactically so squishy elven archers could be run down by lance equipped cavalry on the charge, but elven spearmen were much harder (as IIRC spears got an extra bonus v cavalry)

    many of these bonuses were negated by going in from the side or rear so even elite troops could find themselves in trouble.


    the game also had the "free hack", as a unit broke from combat (or chose to withdraw) the enemy got an extra round of combat where all hits hit automatically, but damage was rolled as usual.

    heavy army elite troops caught by goblins? meah, withdraw and go do something else they likely won't hurt you. vice versa and the gobbos are in trouble - meant pinning a unit in combat required more than the cheapest unit you could find who would have a model or two left after the fight

    also meant that good troops who got unlucky were very seldom cut down as they pulled back

    the flip side was 3rd took a lot longer to play]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608224.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608224.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Geifer wrote:

    The article mentions counter charge as a (conditional) charge reaction, with no explanation what exactly it does. I could see a charge letting you strike first against units standing their ground, while losing that bonus against units that opt to counter charge.

    Would be a bit of a trade-off. You guarantee that both units enter combat even if the charger rolls badly, but you dampen to blow to the charged unit (provided initiative doesn't still favor the charging unit).


    I think it'd be largely based on the Empire's detachment's Counter Charge special rule, in which, the counter-charging unit makes a out-of-sequence move against the charging unit after the charging unit successfully charged the regimental unit. The charging unit does not get to make a charge reaction against the counter-charge. Both the charging and the counter charging units have the same rules and bonuses of charged applied -- in 8th that means in this engagement both sides gets +1 to having charged this turn.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608229.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608229.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lcmiracle wrote:
    Speaking of 6th edition, what about that Intrigue at Court special rule for High Elves wher their army generals are selected at random?

    Getting your general to be an LD8 Mage instead of your LD10 Noble would suck pretty hard...


    I think the problem is that it feels unfair when certain armies have these potentially very negative special rules - while others operate like clockwork.
    Its also potentially hard to balance effects that may happen in some games - but won't in others. Should for example say High Elves be somehow cheaper (either collectively, or just the characters) because they may be stuck with a LD8 Mage as their general? But what about the times when they get the LD10 Noble?

    To a degree you can say "its a dice game, random stuff happens" - but still.

    I had an O&G army (mainly goblins) and by picking these units, had a huge number of such rules. Animosity, Stupidity, terrible leadership in general, fanatics doing random movement, squig hoppers going a random distance, war machines and wizards who were all happy to blow up etc. The complete inverse of "animosity sucks, I'm instantly taking a Black Orc as my general."
    This army was very fun to play in a relatively soft setting. Sometimes things worked well - and sometimes I managed to kill significant more of my own army than my opponent. Which was fine because we could both laugh about it. Going to a more competitive game against someone who's thinking "this isn't funny, I'm just going to destroy you" would tend to be frustrating.

    I'm not sure how you'd resolve those contradictions.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608234.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608234.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608235.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608235.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    It was bonkers, and a lot of fun. An exercise in vaguely organised anarchy and the fine art of herding cats.

    I don’t want the anarchy to be removed. And I don’t want to see a Charge not allow me to strike first. So much of the skill of the game is organising combats to your own advantage. And that includes doing what I can to ensure I’m charging you, and not the other way around.

    Remove that? Undead and Orc face an uphill struggle, as their diabolical Initiative value will see them striking last most of the time anyway, giving me precious little incentive to, y’know, bother charging you in the first place.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608237.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608237.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
    Darkial wrote:
    I actually thought that something like "you can charge to the flanks half of the distance and to the rear a quarter of the distance" could help some of the weird tactics of blocking a big unit with a small light cavalry unit.


    Ooooh no! Nope nope nope!

    The whole point of turning your flank is the reward given by the game mechanics. If I’ve manoeuvred cleverly, then you should be punished for not seeing it coming. Being deft with large, ponderous blocks of infantry is a huge part of the skill required for the game.

    It would also make Fast Cavalry pretty crap. Typically you don’t see them in large units. They’re there to harass and distract, and if you’re lucky run over Artillery, Lone characters, or come in with a rear charge assist to really swing a combat. And of course, chase down already fleeing units if you’d prefer to maintain your overall battle line (pursing in isolation can lead to the victorious unit out of position with its own flanks exposed). Allowing big blocks to easily counter Fast Cavalry entirely defeats the point of Fast Cavalry.


    I understand what you say and I partially agree. But I don't think it's fun that a small unit that moves double than your big infant block can block in one direction your big infantry black because they're are 1 inch from your flank. Imagine an army saying hey I can't turn because we have someone on the side but we can't charge him because it's on my side and not on my front.
    Maybe the half distance is too much but maybe a couple of inches side charge without any bonus at all?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608238.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608238.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors WHFB players like that games are decided through maneuvering and not through who can build an omnipotent deathstar that takes no skill to drive tho.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608242.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608242.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    That's also why they removed initiative completely from the stats in AoS and use a system of alternating choosing which unit to fight in the battle phase. There was simply no need to use a separate stat for that.

    As for TOW, we'll see what GW decides to choose.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608243.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608243.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608250.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608250.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors HH, I'm sure it will exist in ToW.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608252.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608252.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    Initiative is alive and well in HH, I'm sure it will exist in ToW.


    Yeah, but in HH, charge doesn't allow you to strike first : it gives you more attacks. So initiative has very much a point.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608253.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608253.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors in general a unit charging in a prepared way will strike prior to the unit it has charged, but such that a well drilled, prepared and suitably equipped enemy may manage to stand

    also when multiple units charge provide a bonus to both, if a unit is hit in the flanks remove many of its bonuses - you hit nasty elite units hard, after stripping flank protection]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608254.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608254.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    From what I've seen, most WHFB players like that games are decided through maneuvering and not through who can build an omnipotent deathstar that takes no skill to drive tho.


    Pretty much this. Indeed, Deathstars actively harmed the game, because they so dramatically shifted how you played. Especially with 8th Ed introducing “if I have more ranks, I don’t suffer break test modifiers”.

    That lead to utterly ridiculous situations, like a huge blob of Skaven Slaves being all but unbreakable, because a low cost champion could lead from the back (preventing me singling him out), boosting the base leadership, for it to be further boosted by the Skaven adding their rank bonus to said Ld. Have the BSB handy and your re-rolling.

    It was cheap, it was nasty. Didn’t matter I could run over a dozen or more with Chariots, or attacked with a fairly chunky regiment. Skaven Slaves were so dirt cheap, they came in ridiculous ranks.

    But Doc, why do it a charge? Well. I wouldn’t. Not if I could reasonably avoid it. Except, my opponent has this pesky thing called a movement phase too. And Skaven were faster moving than most.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Sarouan wrote:
    Problem of strike first in charges is that it made initiative stat kinda irrelevant, since most of the crucial battles depend on the charges in older editions. Battles that last on more than one round weren't that many (usually involving unbreakable / stubborn units...well at least, if heavy weapons that always strike last aren't involved), and fight by iniative was thus not really happening that often. That's why in V8, they use initiative as the main rule to know who strike first. Sure put a lot of troops in disappointing situations, especially compared to stupidly high initiative fighters (elves even without their strike first special rule), but at least the stat felt like it mattered more than in older editions.

    That's also why they removed initiative completely from the stats in AoS and use a system of alternating choosing which unit to fight in the battle phase. There was simply no need to use a separate stat for that.

    As for TOW, we'll see what GW decides to choose.


    I disagree. Chargers Strike First is incentive to be making, not receiving, the charge. Which in turn incentivises good play and clever manouvering.

    Especially for slow I troops (Zombies, Skellingtons, Orcs, Stunties), take that away and….why ever bother charging? For high I stuff (Elves and upwards) the same applies. If I’m going first anyway, where’s my incentive for controlling the flow of the battle?

    Charge Strikes First is essential to the game. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608256.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608256.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    leopard wrote:
    key is you allow and use initiative, but provide modifiers to it when charging, when using long reach weapons on the charge etc so that in general a unit charging in a prepared way will strike prior to the unit it has charged, but such that a well drilled, prepared and suitably equipped enemy may manage to stand

    also when multiple units charge provide a bonus to both, if a unit is hit in the flanks remove many of its bonuses - you hit nasty elite units hard, after stripping flank protection


    The problem is, in the world of random charges such interesting maneuvers as a multiple charge are too much of a gamble. Even with 2 charging units having 80% chance of connecting, one third of the time only one will make it would into combat and probably die without the support of the other.

    I expect good players who are not going to count on lucky 2/3 chances to lean more into dependable anvil death stars than (un)coordinated assaults. And, as MadDok is saying, it's not going to make the game any better.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608259.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608259.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Tyel wrote:
    I think charging letting you strike first is reasonable - but it has to be tamed by rules like step up.


    This I agree with.

    In earlier editions of WHFB, combat casualties reduced the number of models eligible to fight.

    So, if two units of equal frontage are in combat? We’d be say, 5 on 5. I strike first, and I cause 4 casualties. Those are removed from your rearmost rank(s) reducing your rank bonus. But, it also meant you counted as having 4 fewer models eligible to fight. The exceptions being unit champions and attached Characters.

    But, and for the life of me I can’t remember when, “Step Up” was introduced, which meant whilst I still reduced your overall rank bonus, I could no longer deny you your full attacks, as it’s presumed those in the following ranks stepped forward, and so could fight.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608260.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608260.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
    I disagree. Chargers Strike First is incentive to be making, not receiving, the charge. Which in turn incentivises good play and clever manouvering.

    Especially for slow I troops (Zombies, Skellingtons, Orcs, Stunties), take that away and….why ever bother charging? For high I stuff (Elves and upwards) the same applies. If I’m going first anyway, where’s my incentive for controlling the flow of the battle?

    Charge Strikes First is essential to the game.


    Because the combination of WS being a low value/influence stat and negating the value of Initiative isn't compatible with Elves being a high cost army, which is why GW had such huge issues trying to write good/balanced army books (particularly for the High variety).]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608262.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608262.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW will solve the Elf Infantry Dilemma this time.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608263.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608263.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors HH WS table? Ie hitting on 5+ immediately if you're one pip worse.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608265.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608265.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
    Tyel wrote:
    I think charging letting you strike first is reasonable - but it has to be tamed by rules like step up.


    This I agree with.

    In earlier editions of WHFB, combat casualties reduced the number of models eligible to fight.

    So, if two units of equal frontage are in combat? We’d be say, 5 on 5. I strike first, and I cause 4 casualties. Those are removed from your rearmost rank(s) reducing your rank bonus. But, it also meant you counted as having 4 fewer models eligible to fight. The exceptions being unit champions and attached Characters.

    But, and for the life of me I can’t remember when, “Step Up” was introduced, which meant whilst I still reduced your overall rank bonus, I could no longer deny you your full attacks, as it’s presumed those in the following ranks stepped forward, and so could fight.


    Casualties removing the ability to fight back was there in 7th ed. 8th ed fixed that problem and I hope The Old World doesn't bring it back. It's one of the dumber rules that plagued Fantasy.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608266.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608266.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Just Tony wrote:
     Hellebore wrote:
    Who thinks the charging strikes first rule will be there?



    I think it will be fought in order of initiative, like 8th. Without (elvish) ASF re-rolls.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608267.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608267.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Cyel wrote:
    Yes, I am wondering how GW will solve the Elf Infantry Dilemma this time.


    Army Special Rules. That’s what they’re for ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608269.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608269.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

    Charge Strikes First is essential to the game.


    It's an exception to the rules that creates more exceptions and isn't even a particularly good representation of the benefits of charging.

    A bonus to Strength, a modifier to combat resolution, even a flat Initiative bump would all be better than completely invalidating a whole statistic during the most important part of an engagement.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608272.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608272.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

    I disagree. Chargers Strike First is incentive to be making, not receiving, the charge. Which in turn incentivises good play and clever manouvering.

    Especially for slow I troops (Zombies, Skellingtons, Orcs, Stunties), take that away and….why ever bother charging? For high I stuff (Elves and upwards) the same applies. If I’m going first anyway, where’s my incentive for controlling the flow of the battle?

    Charge Strikes First is essential to the game.


    We actually agree on the importance of an advantage in charges. I was just saying that strike first in charges made the Initiative stat in Warhammer Battle profiles a bit useless before V8.

    Honestly, I can see a TOW game with strike first in charges. I just think the Initiative stat in such a game may be deemed unimportant and simply be removed for simplicity sake.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608277.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608277.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors Ld and a Tough Unit, or how they took break tests.

    For stuff like High Elves? Give them perks in army rules. Exceptions etc. Don’t factor it into the basic rules, because chances are you’re gonna end up with Another Oddity, which in turn would need another fix.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608286.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608286.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sarouan wrote:
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

    I disagree. Chargers Strike First is incentive to be making, not receiving, the charge. Which in turn incentivises good play and clever manouvering.

    Especially for slow I troops (Zombies, Skellingtons, Orcs, Stunties), take that away and….why ever bother charging? For high I stuff (Elves and upwards) the same applies. If I’m going first anyway, where’s my incentive for controlling the flow of the battle?

    Charge Strikes First is essential to the game.


    We actually agree on the importance of an advantage in charges. I was just saying that strike first in charges made the Initiative stat in Warhammer Battle profiles a bit useless before V8.

    Honestly, I can see a TOW game with strike first in charges. I just think the Initiative stat in such a game may be deemed unimportant and simply be removed for simplicity sake.


    What I would do:

    - Remove Initiative stat from the game & Remove Strike first from the game
    - Everyone strikes simultaneously
    - Charging bonus: +1 to hit/+1 to S/bonus to combat resolution/whatever...

    This is how many other good modern wargames deal with it.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608322.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608322.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608324.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608324.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors WS more valuable as a defensive stat.

    I wouldn't put money on it happening, but given that GW just did exactly that for HH2.0, it would not surprise me at all if they do the same for TOW.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608337.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608337.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    A charging unit added +1 to hit in the first round and added +1 to the combat resolution. This was a massive bonus with D6 rolls. Initiative determined striking order with bonuses for weapons.

    A 2 handed weapon decreased your initiative while a long weapon increased it in the 1st round.

    I am a very ancient Warhammer player but I am starting to feel sorry for those who missed out on 2nd and 3rd editions.

    The army list took the time to determine min and max per unit, not a generic 10+ which allowed for gigantic regiments. There are still a few armies that could take such units but they are quite limited. They gave a maximum model count per army also. Units ignored break tests until they had taken 25% losses from starting strength.

    Those version are not perfect and really relied on someone to create a scenario and act as game master.

    I am hoping this new version is usable and the more they lean on very old versions the more I will like it.


    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608339.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608339.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Initiative works well once elves aren't involved. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608341.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608341.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
    Only if a combat went beyond the first round, which was never guaranteed. And against some forces (Undead, Stunties) very much the exception than the norm, thanks to either really solid Ld and a Tough Unit, or how they took break tests.

    For stuff like High Elves? Give them perks in army rules. Exceptions etc. Don’t factor it into the basic rules, because chances are you’re gonna end up with Another Oddity, which in turn would need another fix.


    No.

    The game requires initiative to function and there are and should be unit types that should not want to always charge spearmen f.e. vs twohanded weapons, the real differentiation could come in with the weaponry which could also benefit from added subtype effects.

    Charging could give itself a bonus to initative and attacks. But Always first always last needs to go. Granularising WS difference as was brought up in combination with deeper weapon attributes would be a better solution.

    Spears +1 ini +1 S against charging units +2 against cav that charges them, Pikes + 2 ini and bonus ranks, etc. etc. You could even tie in potential orders to form specific formations to weapon type. Like a square formation of spears that don't loses ranks when flanked but is more vulnerable to enemy ranged attacks and can't move.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608355.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608355.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Player moves should beat stats every time, because players should be rewarded for making good moves nor for their units being given good stats by the whims of the designers.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608357.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608357.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Not Online!!! wrote:
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
    Only if a combat went beyond the first round, which was never guaranteed. And against some forces (Undead, Stunties) very much the exception than the norm, thanks to either really solid Ld and a Tough Unit, or how they took break tests.

    For stuff like High Elves? Give them perks in army rules. Exceptions etc. Don’t factor it into the basic rules, because chances are you’re gonna end up with Another Oddity, which in turn would need another fix.


    No.

    The game requires initiative to function and there are and should be unit types that should not want to always charge spearmen f.e. vs twohanded weapons, the real differentiation could come in with the weaponry which could also benefit from added subtype effects.

    Charging could give itself a bonus to initative and attacks. But Always first always last needs to go. Granularising WS difference as was brought up in combination with deeper weapon attributes would be a better solution.

    Spears +1 ini +1 S against charging units +2 against cav that charges them, Pikes + 2 ini and bonus ranks, etc. etc. You could even tie in potential orders to form specific formations to weapon type. Like a square formation of spears that don't loses ranks when flanked but is more vulnerable to enemy ranged attacks and can't move.



    But Spears allow you to fight in more ranks, bringing more oomph to your battle line. That is their advantage. Or the +1 S on the charge instead if you were mounted. You could also make use of your shield in combat.

    Sword and Board gave +2 armour on top of whatever else (so 3+ with Heavy, 4+ with light, 5+ with your undies and good intentions)

    Halberds gave +1 S, but required two hands, so no shield in combat.

    Great Weapons have +2 S, required two hands and Struck Last.

    So there are already weapon perks and drawbacks. Each suited to a different task.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Cyel wrote:
    No.

    Player moves should beat stats every time, because players should be rewarded for making good moves nor for their units being given good stats by the whims of the designers.


    Pretty much this. WHFB has always been won in deployment and the movement phase. Always. That’s when you sort your battle line. Do I castle? Maybe Refused Flank. Am I packing Scout type units to harry your flankers and potentially block marching?

    Once I see how my deployment measures up to my opponent, that’s when I develop strategies on the fly. Which unit gets a face full of artillery? Who gets to play Traffic Accident with my Chariots? Which unit are my Cavalry most likely to break on the charge?

    Botch that? And the game punished you - if your opponent knew what they were doing.

    Now it wasn’t perfect. Skirmish Heavy armies were a drag to play against. Static Gunlines, like the Dwarf Gunline of Numbing Inevitability reduced my entire strategy to “get across the board as quick as I can, and hope to heck I’ve enough stuff left to mulch his infantry”.

    But I genuinely don’t recall anyone complaining that Chargers Struck First. Indeed, High Elves gaining ASF was quite the controversy at the time.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608364.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608364.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Sarouan wrote:
    Main problem with elves is they're elves. They never needed to have strike 1st as a general rule in V8, their initiative was already high enough from the start.

    Initiative works well once elves aren't involved.


    Does it though?

    Looking from an 8th edition perspective, I'd say the issue was less an "elf problem" - and more a "great weapon problem". Great weapons theoretically trade off the higher S and armour penetration for striking last.
    But if you have poor initiative, you are striking last anyway. So its not really a trade off.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608383.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608383.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    It may level the playing field between infantry blocks and cavalry or skirmishers if only the former can control objectives.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608389.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608389.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Cyel wrote:
    No.

    Player moves should beat stats every time, because players should be rewarded for making good moves nor for their units being given good stats by the whims of the designers.


    Then what's the point of having stats at all. Just say the charging unit wins.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608397.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608397.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     His Master's Voice wrote:
    Cyel wrote:
    No.

    Player moves should beat stats every time, because players should be rewarded for making good moves nor for their units being given good stats by the whims of the designers.


    Then what's the point of having stats at all. Just say the charging unit wins.


    Stats determine how much you win ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608401.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608401.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    The art is in learning how to best stack prospective combats in your favour.

    Enemy got better stars? Hit harder, tougher, more attacks per model? Might want to go in with a flanking unit in support. Or maybe a Chariot for those delicious Impact Hits to really ramp up your Combat Res.

    If they’re harder hitting? Sword and Board seems wise, as they’re more likely to have, let alone make, a saving throw.

    If that unit can charge sideways? It makes it hard to flank them. If they’re gonna strike first regardless, my manoeuvres go without reward, as I’m on the hook for a Full Unit Kicking regardless.

    That has been the traditional weakness of Elite Infantry, like Chaos Warriors or Ogres. Both can give and take a lot of punishment, but tend to be points intensive, leading to a smaller army overall. The trick to besting them is…control the flow of combat. Flank them. Rear charge if you’re lucky. Get as many bodies into that combat as you can.

    Heck, even use ranged weapons to plink off ranks, tipping things further in my favour. I think the only time I’ve ever obliterated an enemy unit was landing an Empire Rocket Barrage slap bang in the middle of a Dwarf Regiment, and exceptionally jammy wound/save rolls.

    That’s….that’s WHFB. That’s what the game is famous and well regarded for. Another game does it more to your tastes? Maybe that’s the game for you then?

    I don’t want another war game with the Warhammer name applied as a sticker. I want Warhammer, The Game Of Fantasy Battles.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608404.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608404.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Cyel wrote:
    Do you think we may see actual scenarios these time?

    It may level the playing field between infantry blocks and cavalry or skirmishers if only the former can control objectives.


    I am hoping so, I think that might be the reason they added a marching formation - scenarios may require rapid movement. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608412.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608412.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608414.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608414.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
    That’s an absurd counter argument.

    The art is in learning how to best stack prospective combats in your favour.

    Enemy got better stars? Hit harder, tougher, more attacks per model? Might want to go in with a flanking unit in support. Or maybe a Chariot for those delicious Impact Hits to really ramp up your Combat Res.

    If they’re harder hitting? Sword and Board seems wise, as they’re more likely to have, let alone make, a saving throw.

    If that unit can charge sideways? It makes it hard to flank them. If they’re gonna strike first regardless, my manoeuvres go without reward, as I’m on the hook for a Full Unit Kicking regardless.


    You can have mechanics like spears interact with Initiative on a contingent basis; eg if you charge a ranked up spear unit they're going to hit you first, but if you flank them or disorder the unit before charging they lose the benefit. That incentivizes maneuver, disruption, and other forms of counterplay, which can translate into emphasizing player decisions more than a system where the charger has such an advantage that being the one to charge first is all that matters.

    Again. It all depends on the implementation. Taking fairly minor mechanics in isolation and making axiomatic statements about them is not how good designers approach things. Having an initiative system does not automatically mean player decisions are subordinate to paper stats, it's just different.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608441.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608441.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    It’s like saying because Lager has bubbles, so should Ales.

    If it happens, it happens and I’ll still play it. But I’m not a fan of people portraying it as some glaring flaw of the game’s overall design.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608445.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608445.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lcmiracle wrote:
    Speaking of 6th edition, what about that Intrigue at Court special rule for High Elves wher their army generals are selected at random?

    Getting your general to be an LD8 Mage instead of your LD10 Noble would suck pretty hard...


    Oh, wow. I forgot all about that rule. What a weird choice for that book. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608446.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608446.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
    Not Online!!! wrote:
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
    Only if a combat went beyond the first round, which was never guaranteed. And against some forces (Undead, Stunties) very much the exception than the norm, thanks to either really solid Ld and a Tough Unit, or how they took break tests.

    For stuff like High Elves? Give them perks in army rules. Exceptions etc. Don’t factor it into the basic rules, because chances are you’re gonna end up with Another Oddity, which in turn would need another fix.


    No.

    The game requires initiative to function and there are and should be unit types that should not want to always charge spearmen f.e. vs twohanded weapons, the real differentiation could come in with the weaponry which could also benefit from added subtype effects.

    Charging could give itself a bonus to initative and attacks. But Always first always last needs to go. Granularising WS difference as was brought up in combination with deeper weapon attributes would be a better solution.

    Spears +1 ini +1 S against charging units +2 against cav that charges them, Pikes + 2 ini and bonus ranks, etc. etc. You could even tie in potential orders to form specific formations to weapon type. Like a square formation of spears that don't loses ranks when flanked but is more vulnerable to enemy ranged attacks and can't move.



    But Spears allow you to fight in more ranks, bringing more oomph to your battle line. That is their advantage. Or the +1 S on the charge instead if you were mounted. You could also make use of your shield in combat.

    Sword and Board gave +2 armour on top of whatever else (so 3+ with Heavy, 4+ with light, 5+ with your undies and good intentions)

    Halberds gave +1 S, but required two hands, so no shield in combat.

    Great Weapons have +2 S, required two hands and Struck Last.

    So there are already weapon perks and drawbacks. Each suited to a different task.


    Which i know, but isn't the point. The point is that fight first last is not a good mechanic. You shouldn't just get rewarded for charging a defensive unit, like a hedge of spears or even pikes, just as you should not get rewarded for charging with pikes especially or foot spearmen.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608477.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608477.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Cyel wrote:
    Stats determine how much you win


    That doesn't work even in real life scenarios, much less in Warhammer, where the individual troop performance delta is much wider.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608517.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608517.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
    But that’s not Warhammer The Game of Fantasy Battles, is it?

    It’s like saying because Lager has bubbles, so should Ales.

    If it happens, it happens and I’ll still play it. But I’m not a fan of people portraying it as some glaring flaw of the game’s overall design.


    Saying that it isn't WHFB if it doesn't have fights-first/fights-last mechanics is every bit as arbitrary and nitpicky as saying that it isn't WHFB if it does have fights-first/fights-last in lieu of Initiative bonuses a la 3rd Ed. Those mechanics changed a lot over the editions, and are no more fundamental to WHFB's identity as a rank-and-flank fantasy game than the presence or absence of random charges or whatever other specific mechanics grognards want to gatekeep as True Warhammer.

    It's also a red herring either way since this isn't WHFB. It's TOW, a new game in the old setting. It's banking on your nostalgia, but they're going in a new direction, and we've already seen new mechanics that have no direct corollaries to WHFB and may be in response to perceived flaws in WHFB's rules. And if Horus Heresy and Legions Imperialis are any indication, players expecting TOW to essentially be WHFB 9th Ed will likely be disappointed.

    Focus less on the trees and more on the forest. It will be the sum of things and the overall feel of the end result that matters, not picking out individual mechanics as purity tests.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608527.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608527.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Scottywan82 wrote:
     lcmiracle wrote:
    Speaking of 6th edition, what about that Intrigue at Court special rule for High Elves wher their army generals are selected at random?

    Getting your general to be an LD8 Mage instead of your LD10 Noble would suck pretty hard...


    Oh, wow. I forgot all about that rule. What a weird choice for that book.


    That was one of the best rules GW ever wrote. Watching people seeth over it was often times the only fun to be had when playing a High elves player.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608530.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608530.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
    I wouldn’t say no to Siege!


    As someone with a fortress, siege tower, battering rams, etc. I would say that I won't adopt this system unless there are siege rules. I don't want to play a siege every time I play Warhammer, but every once in a while is a lot of fun!]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608535.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608535.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     catbarf wrote:
    And as discussed before, the Elf Infantry Problem can be addressed by adjusting the to-hit table to make high WS more valuable as a defensive stat.

    I wouldn't put money on it happening, but given that GW just did exactly that for HH2.0, it would not surprise me at all if they do the same for TOW.


    ^^^^ this, or you go the sort of route MESBG has with the "duel" role and have a stat whereby the blasted pointy ears win draws via a higher stat and when there is still a draw win more often

    you need a way for training to matter, but also a way its not "I have five elves, you lose sucker"


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Its actually interesting to think about what actually makes Warhammer, well Warhammer? and not something else

    - the way movement and positioning matters, for better and for worse
    - "herohammer" to some level
    - "he who throws the most dice wins" mechanics
    - the "to hit-to wound - to save" dice ordering system
    - individual model removal
    - lack of any real command and control system
    - psychology system that half the armies can ignore

    and then usually some sort of magic system that seriously unbalances the game in some way

    the Fisrt/last or initiative thing has changed often enough it hardly matters, its for "TOW" about getting the flavour of the game

    and so far we have seen how units are organised and how they move and it more or less fits, the new march column (which seems a more or less direct read in from Black Powder and similar) makes sense and may perhaps lead into longer games to allow movement to matter

    there are certainly signs so far that some of the older edition flavour is coming back, but also some more modern solutions to some of the problems of earlier editions with the changes to charge distances so they are not 100% sure things but also not something you are going to usually be doing on the second turn.

    it feels like this should be more than "pile forward and six dice a super spell" (ala 8th) and more than "who gets the charge roll on turn 2" (8th again) while removing the "I can stop you ever charging me while I can always charge you" (7th and earlier) stuff

    dare I say it but the game may actually be decided by movement and combat at a more tactical level and not who can better judge a quarter of an inch visually or is best able to gimp the no pre-measure stuff

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608571.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608571.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Grail Seeker wrote:
     Scottywan82 wrote:
     lcmiracle wrote:
    Speaking of 6th edition, what about that Intrigue at Court special rule for High Elves wher their army generals are selected at random?

    Getting your general to be an LD8 Mage instead of your LD10 Noble would suck pretty hard...


    Oh, wow. I forgot all about that rule. What a weird choice for that book.


    That was one of the best rules GW ever wrote. Watching people seeth over it was often times the only fun to be had when playing a High elves player.


    All I saw was a shrug and pretty much every High Elf list becoming 4 Mages, 3 10-man Archers, 4 Bolt Throwers, and fill the rest to taste, usually cav or chariots. I think I was the only HE player in either of my groups running a Prince and a BSB during that time. I was certainly the only person running 3 20-man Spearmen blocks at every game...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608590.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608590.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    kenofyork wrote:
    A 2 handed weapon decreased your initiative while a long weapon increased it in the 1st round.



    Which is odd, because most 2-handed weapons are quite long. A longsword is longer than an arming sword of the type typically used with a shield. A pollaxe is longer than a battle axe. And then you get to pike....]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608607.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608607.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Vulcan wrote:
    kenofyork wrote:
    A 2 handed weapon decreased your initiative while a long weapon increased it in the 1st round.



    Which is odd, because most 2-handed weapons are quite long. A longsword is longer than an arming sword of the type typically used with a shield. A pollaxe is longer than a battle axe. And then you get to pike....


    The 2-handed weapons in fantasy include: giant two-handed axes, giant two-handed hammers, giant two-handed clubs, giant two-handed swords etc. They were envisioned as being heavy and unwieldy (questionable on the zweihandler part but the point stands). The mental imagine is someone raising the weapon over and back the head, before forcefully overcoming the sheer downward weight of the weapon to swing it up and then downwards. Think of it as having a wind-up motion before attacking. Hell, even IRL historical two-handed sword techniques involves a lot of whirling of the blades due to their length.
    Spoiler:



    Poleaxes, halberds, bills, etc., in comparison, are generally longer than Zweihandlers and uses simpler swinging motions most of the time, so one can envision their reach gives them advantage to hitting first against heavier two-handed weapons. The "heavier" image is also the reason why they get the +1 strength and therefore -1 to armour saves.

    Long swords, arming swords, hand-and-a-half swords, on the other hands, are used in one hand and their wind-ups are much faster (since compared to the Zweihander, swinging them can be as quick as the twisting of the wrist, whereas the other has to raise both arms), but due to length they must get into hitting range of both two-handers and pole weapons' range to in order to attack.

    Then you have spears, usually significantly longer than even polearms, and their attacks are majority quick thrusting attacks, capable of out-ranging all other weapons except even longer spears (Pikes) or missile weapons. Everyone else will get the poke long before their own weapons can touch the opponent's flesh.

    Thus it makes sense the order should be quick-long-pokes > slower-shorter-swings > quick-short-pokey-swings > slow shorter swings.

    Compare this to 3rd edition, two-handers gets -1 to initiative due to being "cumbersome", -1 to saving throw, +1 to strength, whereas Halberds got +1 strength, in addition, +1 initiative against cavalry. spears +2 I and an addition +1 I against cavalry. Pikes gets +3 I and additional +3 I against cavalry.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608609.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608609.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors it has nothing to do with reality, same as horses give +1 armour

    making 2 handed weapons "realistic" they would not have strike last or less Initiative but rather impossible to be used in close order and units with such weapons would be skirmish formation only
    (so the downside of doing more damage would be never getting any passive bonus)]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608650.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608650.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    leopard wrote:
    and so far we have seen how units are organised and how they move and it more or less fits, the new march column (which seems a more or less direct read in from Black Powder and similar) makes sense and may perhaps lead into longer games to allow movement to matter

    It does look like something out of a Napoleonic wargame.
    I can see where that comes from considering Jervis' involvement in Napoleonic wargames as well as the influence of the Napoleonic period on wargaming in general (it's the period wargaming started with).
    It seems very strange in a quasi-late medieval to Renaissance period wargame and even stranger for goblins to be worrying about.

    there are certainly signs so far that some of the older edition flavour is coming back, but also some more modern solutions to some of the problems of earlier editions with the changes to charge distances so they are not 100% sure things but also not something you are going to usually be doing on the second turn.

    it feels like this should be more than "pile forward and six dice a super spell" (ala 8th) and more than "who gets the charge roll on turn 2" (8th again) while removing the "I can stop you ever charging me while I can always charge you" (7th and earlier) stuff

    It does look like GW is taking a sensible approach IMO.
    A game that captures "the feel" of Warhammer, but benefits from improved game design is the way to go. We'll see how well they do it.

    GW seem to be cautious with how much they are investing. Reusing old kits where possible and the like.
    That's less than Warhammer deserves, but sensible buisness practice.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608697.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608697.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     DarkBlack wrote:
    leopard wrote:
    and so far we have seen how units are organised and how they move and it more or less fits, the new march column (which seems a more or less direct read in from Black Powder and similar) makes sense and may perhaps lead into longer games to allow movement to matter

    It does look like

    GW seem to be cautious with how much they are investing. Reusing old kits where possible and the like.
    That's less than Warhammer deserves, but sensible buisness practice.


    Old kits released initially as the foam coming out of the champagne bottle when popped is part of the initial appeal I feel.

    I'll buy some old stuff probably.

    I also like the few rules we've seen so far.

    Hope army comp is fairly structured for predictable matchups in tournaments, not just 'take 1 hero and max 3 duplicates of whatever'.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608702.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608702.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Just Tony wrote:
    Grail Seeker wrote:
     Scottywan82 wrote:
     lcmiracle wrote:
    Speaking of 6th edition, what about that Intrigue at Court special rule for High Elves wher their army generals are selected at random?

    Getting your general to be an LD8 Mage instead of your LD10 Noble would suck pretty hard...


    Oh, wow. I forgot all about that rule. What a weird choice for that book.


    That was one of the best rules GW ever wrote. Watching people seeth over it was often times the only fun to be had when playing a High elves player.


    All I saw was a shrug and pretty much every High Elf list becoming 4 Mages, 3 10-man Archers, 4 Bolt Throwers, and fill the rest to taste, usually cav or chariots. I think I was the only HE player in either of my groups running a Prince and a BSB during that time. I was certainly the only person running 3 20-man Spearmen blocks at every game...


    I remember our main HE player ranting about being forced into those types of magic heavy, ranged heavy lists due to Intrigue at Court. He was playing in some rather high end regional leagues against some of the top competative players and you either went all-in on magic or magic heavy+cavalry heavy. My retro-6th ed HE army is a nice mix of magic, shooting, cavalry and infantry that I feel is effective, but I don't think it would have held up at the high level they played at.

    The 7th ed book dropped Intrigue at Court, I highly doubt we'll see it return for ToW]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608765.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608765.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Here's hoping Orcs and Goblins don't have to deal with animosity.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608830.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608830.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608834.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608834.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Manfred von Drakken wrote:
    Like many rules of its era, Intrigue at Court was a fun and fluffy rule. It just wasn't balanced.

    Here's hoping Orcs and Goblins don't have to deal with animosity.


    I want animosity to go back to 3rd edition, not the latter day "this unit now does nothing" or taking whatever they end up calling "Mortal Wounds" in this (you know that gak is coming). have the units actually fight each other]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608840.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608840.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     nathan2004 wrote:
    Why? Part of O&G’s uniqueness no?


    Some people hate dice in dice games. Ideally for them everything works always so they can numbei crunch game before it's even started.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608848.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608848.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors

    It is much harder to balance animosity than it is to balance intrigue at court.

    So either the game is not using rules with deliberate downsides for armies or it is. But protecting one army from a downside and enforcing them on another doesn't seem particularly fair.




    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608850.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608850.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Manfred von Drakken wrote:
    Like many rules of its era, Intrigue at Court was a fun and fluffy rule. It just wasn't balanced.

    Here's hoping Orcs and Goblins don't have to deal with animosity.


    Balance is not meant to be fun. It's only meant to be balanced.

    That's why when GW stopped doing these "unbalanced rules" in the corresponding armies, they felt dull to the players who knew them.

    I'm indeed interested to see GW's take on orcs and goblins armies in TOW. Animosity in Battle could be frustrating for sure, but boy was it always giving results that made someone laugh in every of my games with them at some point.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608859.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608859.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     nathan2004 wrote:
    Why? Part of O&G’s uniqueness no?


    A defining aspect of them no less.

    The poorly disciplined barbarian horde who could hit like a ton of bricks, if you could just get them moving toward the same goal.

    There is a balance to be struck however. Memory fails me on its various incarnations though.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608866.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608866.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608869.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608869.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608871.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608871.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     nathan2004 wrote:
    Oh I don’t disagree at all a balance needs to be struck but some of the most fun I had playing warhammer was against O&G players and the wonky things their armies would do. Very good memories those games.


    Well yea, you would would have fun when your opponent's army is (mostly) hindering itself, wouldn't you? Wonder how much fun the O&G players were having? (based on 99% of the ones I've seen discuss the topic, not a whole lot)]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608889.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608889.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608894.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608894.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lcmiracle wrote:
     Vulcan wrote:
    kenofyork wrote:
    A 2 handed weapon decreased your initiative while a long weapon increased it in the 1st round.



    Which is odd, because most 2-handed weapons are quite long. A longsword is longer than an arming sword of the type typically used with a shield. A pollaxe is longer than a battle axe. And then you get to pike....


    The 2-handed weapons in fantasy include: giant two-handed axes, giant two-handed hammers, giant two-handed clubs, giant two-handed swords etc. They were envisioned as being heavy and unwieldy (questionable on the zweihandler part but the point stands). The mental imagine is someone raising the weapon over and back the head, before forcefully overcoming the sheer downward weight of the weapon to swing it up and then downwards. Think of it as having a wind-up motion before attacking. Hell, even IRL historical two-handed sword techniques involves a lot of whirling of the blades due to their length.
    Spoiler:



    Poleaxes, halberds, bills, etc., in comparison, are generally longer than Zweihandlers and uses simpler swinging motions most of the time, so one can envision their reach gives them advantage to hitting first against heavier two-handed weapons. The "heavier" image is also the reason why they get the +1 strength and therefore -1 to armour saves.

    Long swords, arming swords, hand-and-a-half swords, on the other hands, are used in one hand and their wind-ups are much faster (since compared to the Zweihander, swinging them can be as quick as the twisting of the wrist, whereas the other has to raise both arms), but due to length they must get into hitting range of both two-handers and pole weapons' range to in order to attack.

    Then you have spears, usually significantly longer than even polearms, and their attacks are majority quick thrusting attacks, capable of out-ranging all other weapons except even longer spears (Pikes) or missile weapons. Everyone else will get the poke long before their own weapons can touch the opponent's flesh.

    Thus it makes sense the order should be quick-long-pokes > slower-shorter-swings > quick-short-pokey-swings > slow shorter swings.

    Compare this to 3rd edition, two-handers gets -1 to initiative due to being "cumbersome", -1 to saving throw, +1 to strength, whereas Halberds got +1 strength, in addition, +1 initiative against cavalry. spears +2 I and an addition +1 I against cavalry. Pikes gets +3 I and additional +3 I against cavalry.


    Not my experience in HEMA, but I suppose for game balance purposes we have to accept some... silliness.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608895.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608895.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Wayniac wrote:
    Animosity was a classic rule. I hope they don't get rid of it.


    People really like it. When I was making the rules for orcs in my system, I assumed people didn't like it but boy was I wrong!

    Apparently an integral element of the army list, to be left out at one's peril.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608898.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608898.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    leopard wrote:
     Manfred von Drakken wrote:
    Like many rules of its era, Intrigue at Court was a fun and fluffy rule. It just wasn't balanced.

    Here's hoping Orcs and Goblins don't have to deal with animosity.


    I want animosity to go back to 3rd edition, not the latter day "this unit now does nothing" or taking whatever they end up calling "Mortal Wounds" in this (you know that gak is coming). have the units actually fight each other


    Ugh. Mortal Wounds. You've given me another nonstarter strike to look out for if I ever get addled enough for someone to convince me to suddenly like random charges...

    tneva82 wrote:
     nathan2004 wrote:
    Why? Part of O&G’s uniqueness no?


    Some people hate dice in dice games. Ideally for them everything works always so they can numbei crunch game before it's even started.




    Do you hate literally EVERYTHING about gaming? I ask because all you do is complain. NONSTOP.


    And maybe the issue is that there CAN be such a thing as too much random.

    Rihgu wrote:
     nathan2004 wrote:
    Oh I don’t disagree at all a balance needs to be struck but some of the most fun I had playing warhammer was against O&G players and the wonky things their armies would do. Very good memories those games.


    Well yea, you would would have fun when your opponent's army is (mostly) hindering itself, wouldn't you? Wonder how much fun the O&G players were having? (based on 99% of the ones I've seen discuss the topic, not a whole lot)



    Hello. I'm a long time Orc and Goblin player, and I've had fun with the animosity rules ever since I started using the army in 6th. Please don't attempt to speak for everyone.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608916.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608916.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608928.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608928.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
    Wayniac wrote:
    Animosity was a classic rule. I hope they don't get rid of it.


    People really like it. When I was making the rules for orcs in my system, I assumed people didn't like it but boy was I wrong!

    Apparently an integral element of the army list, to be left out at one's peril.


    The thing GW used to be really good at back in the day and that has largely evaporated from the main games now is that you got tangible variety between armies, both in play style and the presence or absence of random effects to reflect the faction's background. The great thing about it, verisimilitude aside which I found to be an important aspect for drawing players into their chosen army, is that with enough variety you offer something for everyone. If you want to math out your game before it even starts, you get your predictable armies. Other armies provide something to those who bought into the wackiness of a faction's fluff. In my opinion it's to the games' detriment that 10th ed 40k (and its more recent predecessors, too) and AoS gave dropped such flavorful rules in pursuit of balance at the cost of any other consideration. It cuts out a part of the customer base who is simply no longer catered to.

    It's understandable why this happens. This stuff is really hard to balance and you'll see the crowd who is into predictability become very vocal when they lose a perfectly planned game to a random effect. They don't want it in their army for obvious reasons, but not in the enemy army either because it still has an effect on them during the game. It's a shame to see as far as I'm concerned, but hardly surprising. Which is why I really hope that GW goes hard after the nostalgia money with The Old World. The game might actually retain all these fun little rules if the designers have enough incentive to stay away from mindlessly modernizing the game for the competitive crowd.

    I will say I'm a little wary after GW revealed the absence of the magic phase. The magic phase was where wizards went kablooey and you'd better believe that I want my fireworks. There's no strict need for catastrophic failure to be tied to a specific phase, but traditionally making magic and psychic powers an ability used in other phases hasn't resulted in particularly interesting or meaningful perils rules. Remains to be seen how it all shapes out, of course.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608932.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608932.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lurch wrote:
    what my cousins and I found with orcs in six edition was that the balance for animosity was there points cost, your average orc boy or savage orc boy unit is way cheaper then thier stats and as such you can take multiple units of them to make up for the fact that some are not doing anything on a given turn.

    Exactly this; without Animosity, O&G were far too cheap and it was a core balancing feature of the list.
    I will say that I hope they find a middle ground with streamlining it. The two roll system (roll once to see if you’re affected then another to see how) was cumbersome and the one-die system (one D6 roll says if you’re affected and how) was too swingy. Maybe a single 2D6 table?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608933.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608933.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    As it was, I remember people having mostly two issues with it. One being the only faction rule with no real benefit, the other that it really screwed with the factions balance. Both of them are valid in my opinion, but Animosity was still integral to the armies character. You could mitigate it by army composition, or embrace it - but you could not ignore it. I just wish we get an update that every now and then gives an affected unit a tangible boost.


     Geifer wrote:
    I will say I'm a little wary after GW revealed the absence of the magic phase. The magic phase was where wizards went kablooey and you'd better believe that I want my fireworks. There's no strict need for catastrophic failure to be tied to a specific phase, but traditionally making magic and psychic powers an ability used in other phases hasn't resulted in particularly interesting or meaningful perils rules. Remains to be seen how it all shapes out, of course.

    You could be right, but the point at which perils happen is not necessarily tied to magic being restricted to its own phase.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608934.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608934.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    (*contrast with HE crying over Intrigue)]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608942.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608942.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    O&G players had fun with Animosity (and other stuff like Fanatics wiping out their own battle line) because O&G attracted players who were only in it for the fun and spectacle of the game*. I have also always had fun facing them because they were jovial people, but the army was gak. It was the sole army book always excluded from codex creep and the exception to the rule that tourney top 10s always without fail consisted entirely of the most recent 3-4 books.

    (*contrast with HE crying over Intrigue)


    For one this.

    Otoh, i think there should be ways to migitate it and there were, cue blackorks? NVM that black orks also were cool models.

    Far more annoying even though thematic was the whole" must always challange" chaos champion rules since it didn't stipulate a level at which such challanges could be accepted downwards on your opponent.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608951.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608951.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lord_blackfang wrote:

    (*contrast with HE crying over Intrigue)

    Animosity was a key part of O&G for years. Intrigue at Court was introduced in 6th out of nowhere and removed in 7th. I'm all for rules defining and informing playstyle, but Intrigue was at best a random fluke that made no sense at the time, and makes even less sense in hindsight. It's a relic best buried, point in fact because it WAS buried. In 7th.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608954.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608954.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Kalamadea wrote:
     lord_blackfang wrote:

    (*contrast with HE crying over Intrigue)

    Animosity was a key part of O&G for years. Intrigue at Court was introduced in 6th out of nowhere and removed in 7th. I'm all for rules defining and informing playstyle, but Intrigue was at best a random fluke that made no sense at the time, and makes even less sense in hindsight. It's a relic best buried, point in fact because it WAS buried. In 7th.


    It was perfectly fine in representing the lore it wanted to represent, but yes, it was forced out of nowhere on players who didn't get into their army for the fun of watching it randomly hobble itself. Hence O&G players being a breed apart, but their acceptance of their rules doesn't mean the rules were good.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608966.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608966.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Kalamadea wrote:
    Animosity was a key part of O&G for years. Intrigue at Court was introduced in 6th out of nowhere and removed in 7th. I'm all for rules defining and informing playstyle, but Intrigue was at best a random fluke that made no sense at the time, and makes even less sense in hindsight. It's a relic best buried, point in fact because it WAS buried. In 7th.


    Yeah. I mean if High Elves were defined as this extremely political faction - and this was somehow represented all the way through the list - that might make some sense.

    Off the top of my head, say every regiment had to have a champion, and you rolled on table to determine they were a martial paragon (more WS and A or something) - or some fresh noble who'd never been in battle before (less WS and A etc). Tracking it might be a bit tedious and some would hate the randomness of it - but it would feel like more of a thing. I'm sure there could be other mechanics somehow.

    People would know what they were getting into.

    Instead of "roll at the start, if you roll badly, your little mage may be your general, sucks to be you I guess?" There's no upside or roleplay to it. You can't really embrace it.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608970.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608970.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Like potent magic miscasts or cannons having misfire. Dont remember how chaos worked back then, but I know GW have been fond of doing "gain bonus or turn into a spawn" rules.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608979.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608979.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors iirc intrigue was introduced in an era where GW seemed to understand "balance" to mean "if you give them a special rule that gives them a benefit, you also need to give them another special rule that gives them some penalty". The idea that they could account for the benefit by increasing points or reducing stats, etc. didnt seem to register with them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608981.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608981.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mr_Rose wrote:
     lurch wrote:
    what my cousins and I found with orcs in six edition was that the balance for animosity was there points cost, your average orc boy or savage orc boy unit is way cheaper then thier stats and as such you can take multiple units of them to make up for the fact that some are not doing anything on a given turn.

    Exactly this; without Animosity, O&G were far too cheap and it was a core balancing feature of the list.
    I will say that I hope they find a middle ground with streamlining it. The two roll system (roll once to see if you’re affected then another to see how) was cumbersome and the one-die system (one D6 roll says if you’re affected and how) was too swingy. Maybe a single 2D6 table?


    IMHO the best way to do it would be:

    1. Have a 2D6 table, possibly one for Orks and one for Goblins.
    2. Have characters and some conditions give bonuses in the +1 or +2 range (i.e. shift the bell curve upwards) or maluses in the same range.
    3. Have the table give benefits in the upper third, and don't cap at 12 but at something like 16, so that under the right circumstances you can trigger something very beneficial from animosity, but you need to think about setting that up.

    Beneficial stuff in the upper range could be something like "devastating charge" on your units, getting some slain models back, spawning a new unit champion/minor hero, rallying nearby units, a free casting of a random spell from the relevant lore or something like that.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608984.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608984.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608987.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11608987.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Darnok wrote:
     Geifer wrote:
    I will say I'm a little wary after GW revealed the absence of the magic phase. The magic phase was where wizards went kablooey and you'd better believe that I want my fireworks. There's no strict need for catastrophic failure to be tied to a specific phase, but traditionally making magic and psychic powers an ability used in other phases hasn't resulted in particularly interesting or meaningful perils rules. Remains to be seen how it all shapes out, of course.

    You could be right, but the point at which perils happen is not necessarily tied to magic being restricted to its own phase.


    Yeah. My concern stems from the idea that if you have a full phase for magic, you'll be inclined to furnish it with more than the act of casting to justify the phase's existence. So you get rules like dice pools and miscasts, a (hopefully) tactical game of assigning your casting and dispel dice, and make it feel as engaged and fleshed out as any other phase of the game. Whereas the temptation to keep magic rules slim if it happens in another phase so as not to interrupt the expected flow. Magic missiles over mundane weapons already adds a step to the resolution of the attack. Keeping failure simple might appeal to the designers.

    Like I said, we'll have to see how it goes. It's just something that came to mind immediately when I read that article. Overall I feel positive about the Old World rules we've seen so far, so hopefully that's just paranoia.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609014.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609014.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors 2d6 options was animosity where X units stopped to squabble for the turn, but upper outcomes were things like 3d6 pick the highest for charges this turn, +1s in melee, gain +1 armour saves etc, you get a better outcome.

    Then it becomes a reflection of the orc psyche in total rather than a focus specifically on one negative aspect.

    Something like

    All effects last until the next turn
    2d6
    2 - every Greenskin regiment suffers 1 wound
    3-4 - 1d3 Greenskin units of your choice are affected by animosity this turn and may not do anything
    5-6 - 1 unit suffers animosity
    7-8 - army functions normally
    9 - all greenskins roll 3d6 choose highest for charges
    10 -all greenskins gain +1 strength
    11 - all greenskins gain +1 armour
    12+ - waaaaagh! All greenskins receive the effects of 9-11 this turn.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609016.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609016.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Just Tony wrote:




    Ugh. Mortal Wounds. You've given me another nonstarter strike to look out for if I ever get addled enough for someone to convince me to suddenly like random charges...



    Since you have already made a big show of claiming to be out. What happens if there are mortal wounds? Do you declare to be out 'for realsies'? ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609050.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609050.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Hellebore wrote:
    Certainly if you called it the waaagh table and one of the lower 2d6 options was animosity where X units stopped to squabble for the turn, but upper outcomes were things like 3d6 pick the highest for charges this turn, +1s in melee, gain +1 armour saves etc, you get a better outcome.

    Then it becomes a reflection of the orc psyche in total rather than a focus specifically on one negative aspect.

    Something like

    All effects last until the next turn
    2d6
    2 - every Greenskin regiment suffers 1 wound
    3-4 - 1d3 Greenskin units of your choice are affected by animosity this turn and may not do anything
    5-6 - 1 unit suffers animosity
    7-8 - army functions normally
    9 - all greenskins roll 3d6 choose highest for charges
    10 -all greenskins gain +1 strength
    11 - all greenskins gain +1 armour
    12+ - waaaaagh! All greenskins receive the effects of 9-11 this turn.


    I see a problem with this system. The animosity is between units of rival orcs. It is hard for me to imagine a fight breaking out in one corner of the battle and another unit in the other corner getting a bonus. Also fights amongst members of the same unit should have been worked out somewhere along the march, not held simmering to break out just in time to ruin a battle against dangerous foes.

    I sound like a broken record, but since 3rd is my go to version I will post the animosity rules here and how I dealt with them as an orc and goblin player.

    A unit subject to animosity must test if a friendly unit is within 12" that it holds ill will towards. This is most of the army.

    This test is not taken if there are enemies within 12" OR charge range; If there is a hated foes in sight; or if they are already fighting another friendly unit.

    To take the test roll a D6 and add or subtract modifiers. You get to subtract any leadership bonus, but must add in +1 if there are no enemies in sight, +1 if the friendly unit pissing you off is directly in front, and +1 if it is from a different race.

    On a roll of 5 or less, the unit is good. On a 6 it will shoot missiles or hurl insults at the friendly unit, and on a 7+ it will charge them.

    As an orc player from the 3rd edition era I could safely deploy most units within range of my general's leadership bonus. Once out side of that range I had to avoid stacking units in front of one another and never put goblins behind orcs without a very good leader. Try to get within 12" ASAP to stop all the nonsense and just cross your fingers when you had to take the tough rolls.

    If you had units ranging far on the flank really try to keep them apart. It was better to have one unit of 12 wolf riders doing a flank move instead of 2 units of 6. Most likely they would end up taking pot shots back and forth before they managed to get very far. Although the long charge range meant they got to skip the test earlier than the infantry.

    It was a complex system that would really punish an orc player who did not factor it in to deployment and army composition. I often wished I could screen my orcs with goblin skirmishers but that always ended badly.

    There was one really gamey move you could take that took advantage of the animosity rules. Give a hero a vampiric blade that boosted a stat for every kill. Then place that unit directly behind a unit likely to cause a failed test in an out of the way place. Usually lowly goblins with no upgrades in front of orcs. The hero mows the goblins down for a couple turns and by the time he meets the enemy he has a massively boosted stat line.

    It was a good trade off. Some cheap dead goblins in exchange for an orc that could kill a dragon.

    This is the sort of gimmick I now dislike 1988 was a different time and I had not grown weary of such tricks in my gaming.

    I am hoping they build a decent system that lets me move forward in time a bit and not stay stuck in the past.




    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609076.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609076.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609101.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609101.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609106.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609106.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609125.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609125.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609130.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609130.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors Removed - rule #1 please and enough of the off-topic - BrookM]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609147.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609147.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I’m really keen to learn the mechanics behind Push Back, as if I recall the article correctly it’s being included alongside, not replacing, Break Tests and Routing as we currently know them.

    Others have mentioned that mechanic existed in at least 3rd Ed, which is before my time, and of course Warmaster, where I simply can’t remember it.

    Can anyone weigh in with potted versions of how it worked? I dimly remember Warmaster Combats were sustained affairs?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609149.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609149.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors The first round of combat is the usual affair, +1 Attack for the charger and lots of dice rolled. Add in bonuses for ranks/flanks (Support) to determine the winner.
    The loser will then Retreat, moving back 1cm for every point they lost by.
    After the Retreat, the winner has several options for what to do. The fun one is a Pursuit, in which they are placed back in contact and immediately fight a second round. There are different bonuses in this Pursuit round and its very easy to turn into an absolute meatgrinder.
    Results are then determined as normal. In the (pretty likely) chance that the enemy has been wiped out, the winner can elect to Advance into a second fight and even Pursue again if they keep winning. The Revolution ruleset limits units to a maximum of one Advance per turn however.

    At the end of the turn, anyone not in combat is healed back to full hits so there's a definite reason not to go full-ham on Pursuit spam, but when it'll bag you a couple more stands then it's worthwhile to keep the momentum up.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609153.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609153.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
    ANYWAYS. Back to the plot!

    I’m really keen to learn the mechanics behind Push Back, as if I recall the article correctly it’s being included alongside, not replacing, Break Tests and Routing as we currently know them.

    Others have mentioned that mechanic existed in at least 3rd Ed, which is before my time, and of course Warmaster, where I simply can’t remember it.

    Can anyone weigh in with potted versions of how it worked? I dimly remember Warmaster Combats were sustained affairs?


    Push back was the one thing I was anxiously awaiting clarification on. If it is a thing of beauty I may nab it as a house rule.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609154.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609154.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Tsagualsa wrote:1. Have a 2D6 table, possibly one for Orks and one for Goblins.
    2. Have characters and some conditions give bonuses in the +1 or +2 range (i.e. shift the bell curve upwards) or maluses in the same range.
    3. Have the table give benefits in the upper third, and don't cap at 12 but at something like 16, so that under the right circumstances you can trigger something very beneficial from animosity, but you need to think about setting that up.

    Beneficial stuff in the upper range could be something like "devastating charge" on your units, getting some slain models back, spawning a new unit champion/minor hero, rallying nearby units, a free casting of a random spell from the relevant lore or something like that.
    Or make it "1D6 + leadership + rare extra modifier" and then compare the result to a table of potential effects that fit the range. That way leadership becomes a bit more useful and those units that get their Ld from the Lord (around the core of the army) are less unruly and more motivated as they know what happens if they don't behave. Due to the wider range of Ld in an O&G army it would have a somewhat similar spread as 2D6 but also depend on how much of a misfit the unity type is. At the lower end there could be results for the more feral types and further up for the more Waaagh motivated ones.

    When it comes to the table then I'd not just put all the bad stuff at the bottom and good stuff on the top but mix it up a bit. Give them potential for small upside somewhere in the lower numbers between a bunch of bad results and on the opposite maybe add a high risk/reward (with potential for a negative) result among all the somewhat beneficial ones. Give them a bit of fun random ness and not just "low = bad, high = good". It should add a fun type of randomness that gives the army flavour.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609161.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609161.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Normally my lists weigh heavily on “knock out” charges. For instance, I love Chariots. My old Dark List featured four, and I’d usually have them buddied up for high speed “think on, think twice, think don’t drive on the pavement” fun. But when I really, really wanted to collapse your centre? Send in three. And it usually worked pretty well.

    But, if Breaking an enemy unit becomes tougher, I will of course have to adapt. Which is fine. I appreciate not everyone particularly enjoys their centre unit being run over and smooshed.

    I’m not adverse to having to plan a given combat a couple of turns in advance. Indeed, if the rule works? I welcome that change in strategic consideration. Especially as I’ll need to weigh up “what if I’m the one simply pushed back”.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609162.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609162.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609163.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609163.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609164.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609164.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609166.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609166.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Just Tony wrote:

    And maybe the issue is that there CAN be such a thing as too much random.

    (Snip...)

    Hello. I'm a long time Orc and Goblin player, and I've had fun with the animosity rules ever since I started using the army in 6th. Please don't attempt to speak for everyone.


    You hate random charges, but you're fine with 1/6 your army taking a turn off every turn?

    The risk in random charges can be managed. The risk of Animosity largely can't. Why is the manageable risk 'too random' and the unmanageable risk 'fun'?

    No, that's a serious question. Because of the two, Animosity seems to be far better at wrecking battle plans than failing a long-shot random charge. Especially as we don't know yet whether charging will be as combat-wrecking as it was in 7th, or merely a trivial +1 bonus to combat res as in 8th.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609277.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609277.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     nathan2004 wrote:
    ^Could they do that in 8th? I don’t remember.


    I think yes because there were no hero slots, just percentile limits? I didn't play but have some recollections of complaints about gobbo death stars where the entire front rank was minor heroes that just spammed challenges to neutralize enemy DPS heroes forever.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609279.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609279.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     nathan2004 wrote:
    Push back is a rule that interests me greatly. Along with psychology. Hopefully these get revealed (more or less) in upcoming previews.


    Am I going Mad, or did Fear causing troops eventually lose “auto fail break tests against Fear causing enemies which outnumber you”?

    Because that was kind of a staple of Undead tactics.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609285.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609285.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
     nathan2004 wrote:
    Push back is a rule that interests me greatly. Along with psychology. Hopefully these get revealed (more or less) in upcoming previews.


    Am I going Mad, or did Fear causing troops eventually lose “auto fail break tests against Fear causing enemies which outnumber you”?

    Because that was kind of a staple of Undead tactics.


    I believe 8E actually removed outnumbering entirely, and so this effect was also removed.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609302.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609302.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Vulcan wrote:
     Just Tony wrote:

    And maybe the issue is that there CAN be such a thing as too much random.

    (Snip...)

    Hello. I'm a long time Orc and Goblin player, and I've had fun with the animosity rules ever since I started using the army in 6th. Please don't attempt to speak for everyone.


    You hate random charges, but you're fine with 1/6 your army taking a turn off every turn?

    The risk in random charges can be managed. The risk of Animosity largely can't. Why is the manageable risk 'too random' and the unmanageable risk 'fun'?

    No, that's a serious question. Because of the two, Animosity seems to be far better at wrecking battle plans than failing a long-shot random charge. Especially as we don't know yet whether charging will be as combat-wrecking as it was in 7th, or merely a trivial +1 bonus to combat res as in 8th.


    Black orcs to key units and redundancy compensates. When you have multiple units that can do the work 1 missing out isn't big deal.

    Just don't build death stars. And any rule discouraging death stars good.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609307.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609307.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Vulcan wrote:
    The risk in random charges can be managed. The risk of Animosity largely can't. Why is the manageable risk 'too random' and the unmanageable risk 'fun'?

    No, that's a serious question. Because of the two, Animosity seems to be far better at wrecking battle plans than failing a long-shot random charge. Especially as we don't know yet whether charging will be as combat-wrecking as it was in 7th, or merely a trivial +1 bonus to combat res as in 8th.


    I hate random charges because they make no sense. I can't think of a single battle where one side charged the other and then, you know, got winded and stopped. Units have refused to charge, or drifted away from the intended target, but GW is unique in the notion that troops otherwise in position to engage will fail to do so.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609321.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609321.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
    I hate random charges because they make no sense. I can't think of a single battle where one side charged the other and then, you know, got winded and stopped. Units have refused to charge, or drifted away from the intended target, but GW is unique in the notion that troops otherwise in position to engage will fail to do so.


    A charge can also fail using fixed distances if the player declaring a charge has misjudged by 1/2" or whatever, and therefore move only half their full distance. Like, they didn't know they were out of range when they started, realised halfway through and then just gave up on trying.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609333.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609333.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
     Vulcan wrote:
    The risk in random charges can be managed. The risk of Animosity largely can't. Why is the manageable risk 'too random' and the unmanageable risk 'fun'?

    No, that's a serious question. Because of the two, Animosity seems to be far better at wrecking battle plans than failing a long-shot random charge. Especially as we don't know yet whether charging will be as combat-wrecking as it was in 7th, or merely a trivial +1 bonus to combat res as in 8th.


    I hate random charges because they make no sense. I can't think of a single battle where one side charged the other and then, you know, got winded and stopped. Units have refused to charge, or drifted away from the intended target, but GW is unique in the notion that troops otherwise in position to engage will fail to do so.


    Yea. Troops always start the charge run precisely at right distance. Never ever too early. Humans are infallible after all carrying laser pointers in middle ages after all.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609338.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609338.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    tneva82 wrote:
    Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
     Vulcan wrote:
    The risk in random charges can be managed. The risk of Animosity largely can't. Why is the manageable risk 'too random' and the unmanageable risk 'fun'?

    No, that's a serious question. Because of the two, Animosity seems to be far better at wrecking battle plans than failing a long-shot random charge. Especially as we don't know yet whether charging will be as combat-wrecking as it was in 7th, or merely a trivial +1 bonus to combat res as in 8th.


    I hate random charges because they make no sense. I can't think of a single battle where one side charged the other and then, you know, got winded and stopped. Units have refused to charge, or drifted away from the intended target, but GW is unique in the notion that troops otherwise in position to engage will fail to do so.


    Yea. Troops always start the charge run precisely at right distance. Never ever too early. Humans are infallible after all carrying laser pointers in middle ages after all.

    There is not such thing as a set distance that someone can charge. You keep running until you get there.
    The danger is if troops ran too far, then they would get exhausted and be ineffective when they got to the enemy.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609392.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609392.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Mozzamanx wrote:
    I'm pretty sure we've already seen a photo proving that they they are. The article with some gameplay photos still has Orcs and Goblins on visibly different bases, even of they haven't said what size the Orcs are getting.


    I tried looking for some pictures related to TOW and orcs but I could find none

    I decided to paint some orcs to kill some TOW hype but I'm fought between just sticking to 25mm (which however we know almost certainly won't be the base size for orcs) or take a gamble with a "new size" base. If you guys had to bet what do you think is gonna be the size for regular orc troops? 30mm? maybe even 32mm square?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609399.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609399.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    artu87 wrote:

    I tried looking for some pictures related to TOW and orcs but I could find none




    From this article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/24/old-world-development-diary-the-more-things-change-the-more-they-stay-the-same/]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609403.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609403.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609420.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609420.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    tneva82 wrote:
    Yea. Troops always start the charge run precisely at right distance. Never ever too early. Humans are infallible after all carrying laser pointers in middle ages after all.


    Show me the battle where this happened.

    I'm not talking about troops falling out on a grueling road march, nor am I talking about heavy fire breaking up the advance, I mean troopers who sing the pean, lower spears and then just slow down 40 yards short of the Athenians, or Romans who hurl their spears and then realize they guessed wrong and sit there, waiting for the Gauls to take their turn.

    Confederates give the rebel yell, surge forward and then, whew, that field is longer than we thought!

    It's a game mechanic that only exists in the GW universe.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609504.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609504.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    It says that the regiment in the abstract subjective time increment they are being measured in, couldn't get to the target in time.

    This doesn't matter if it's a fixed charge mechanic or a random one and in fact neither mechanic is better in reflecting it.







    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609506.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609506.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    a fair few where the victims got ready in time

    and a few where the victims buggered off in time

    if you think of a "failed charge" as didn't make contact quick enough for the otherside not to make contact you have that

    you then also have the "Agincourt" type situation where one side was trying to make contact but was exhausted by the time they did

    it happened, however most stuff, cavalry especially, generally had a pretty good idea of at what point to break into the full pelt to be at full speed at the time they needed to be.

    Largely because it wasn't the army commander some distance away giving the order, but a local commander who, in general, more or less knew what they were doing

    in the same way "guess range" is rubbish as its not the general doing it, but the various war machine crews who when told to fire on a target got on with the job.

    what oftne happened with charges was a unit arrived slightly before, or slightly after the optimum time so wasn't as effective when they got there as they either didn't have the momentum, or were starting to lose it.

    its likely best modelled by a slight mix of random distances for the "optimum", but then a unit going past that at hitting for less effect, plus targets getting to react but only when more than say the basic distance away as they need some time to react.

    and then having a minimum charge distance for a charge to get any bonuses..

    comes down to "how complicated v how abstract?"]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609508.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609508.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609511.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609511.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
    Yea. Troops always start the charge run precisely at right distance. Never ever too early. Humans are infallible after all carrying laser pointers in middle ages after all.


    Show me the battle where this happened.

    I'm not talking about troops falling out on a grueling road march, nor am I talking about heavy fire breaking up the advance, I mean troopers who sing the pean, lower spears and then just slow down 40 yards short of the Athenians, or Romans who hurl their spears and then realize they guessed wrong and sit there, waiting for the Gauls to take their turn.

    Confederates give the rebel yell, surge forward and then, whew, that field is longer than we thought!

    It's a game mechanic that only exists in the GW universe.


    Seriously you are going to get this thread locked we have been told MUTILPLE times to stay on topic]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609513.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609513.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609518.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609518.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     alextroy wrote:
    It seems the new rule where you move the full distance of your Charge Roll for a failed charge does a good job of reflecting those times when a charge is begun far enough away for the enemy to get far more reaction time than desired. The Charge Roll itself reflects a combination of ground conditions and how efficiently the unit gets their charge moving in a timely and organized manner.


    I agree, also means there is no long zero risk to maximum distance charges where even if you fail you are outside the enemies charge range, now fall short and inch and it may hurt a bit]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609529.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609529.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Hellebore wrote:
    A failed charge in a turn based game is reflective of time and nothing more.

    It says that the regiment in the abstract subjective time increment they are being measured in, couldn't get to the target in time.

    This doesn't matter if it's a fixed charge mechanic or a random one and in fact neither mechanic is better in reflecting it.


    Right, but we don't do random movement, just random charges, or the weird guessing thing.

    It's a mechanic no other system uses for good reason. Animosity is flavorful and give the orcs their unique character. Including rules for an otherwise successful charge to fail due to dice is a waste of rulebook space.







    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609531.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609531.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Hellebore wrote:
    I assume the almanac tonight will be the shooting phase? They seem to be going in phase order.


    WarCom wrote:
    Here at Warhammer Community, we’re gearing up for a spectacular double-header of live events as the World Championships of Warhammer and the Grand Narrative Finale begin on Thursday 16th November. We’ll have live coverage of the weekend’s action to go with four days of livestreams from the Warhammer Twitch channel, including another exciting Preview Online packed with reveals.

    That’s not all – the Old World Almanack returns with a look at the Shooting Phase, we dig into more of the rules from Warhammer: The Horus Heresy – Legions Imperialis, and a very special reveal makes this an unbeatable week for Warhammer fans. We’ll see you there!


    Yup, shooting is next]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609534.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609534.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
    Yea. Troops always start the charge run precisely at right distance. Never ever too early. Humans are infallible after all carrying laser pointers in middle ages after all.


    Show me the battle where this happened.

    I'm not talking about troops falling out on a grueling road march, nor am I talking about heavy fire breaking up the advance, I mean troopers who sing the pean, lower spears and then just slow down 40 yards short of the Athenians, or Romans who hurl their spears and then realize they guessed wrong and sit there, waiting for the Gauls to take their turn.

    Confederates give the rebel yell, surge forward and then, whew, that field is longer than we thought!

    It's a game mechanic that only exists in the GW universe.


    While the GW rule is an abstraction, this is almost literally what happened in ancient and medieval combat. Indeed, it was probably the defining feature of pre-1870 combat: one group musters the courage to charge and they move forward, yelling and throwing things. If they enemy lose their nerve and flees, the attackers pursue. If the enemy holds the attacker may press the charge, or, more likely, they'll slow down and regroup, throwing missiles and curses while one side builds up the nerve to charge again (or flees in panic).

    The clearest example of one side pausing to regroup mid-charge is Caesar's assault on Pompey at Pharsalus. See also the retreat of the Swiss at Cerignola, the Roman's counter-charge against Boudica, or the assault of the French II corps at Bussaco.

    Troops consistently lose their nerve, or lose the intiative to the enemy. I'm not completely sold on random charges as a game mechanic, but it does a decent job at modeling battelfield confusion and the fog of war.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609548.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609548.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Saber wrote:
    While the GW rule is an abstraction, this is almost literally what happened in ancient and medieval combat. Indeed, it was probably the defining feature of pre-1870 combat: one group musters the courage to charge and they move forward, yelling and throwing things. If they enemy lose their nerve and flees, the attackers pursue. If the enemy holds the attacker may press the charge, or, more likely, they'll slow down and regroup, throwing missiles and curses while one side builds up the nerve to charge again (or flees in panic).


    What you are talking about is a function of morale, not guessing distance or a random die roll. If it was pegged to morale, I'd be fine with it, but it's not.

    There are lots of ways to handle charges, from testing to make them to testing to receive them. No one but GW does a "flip a coin and see if the troops can cover the requisite amount of ground before the shot clock expires."]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609551.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609551.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609554.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609554.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    As for actual TOW-related topics, I'm surprised that they haven't even gone into the new base sizes yet. Infantry got moved up to 25mm minimum base size but Cavalry, juding from the photos, remains the same 25x50mm. So now Cavalry units won't be in base contact with as many infantry models as in WHFB. Honestly seems like buff to cavs to me.

    Wonder if there will be a new 30/35mm square base for CW sized miniatures -- I made a 20-to-25 mm square base extender (well rather in 2 parts, files on cults 3D: https://cults3d.com/en/3d-model/game/20mm-to-25mm-base-extender-in-two-pieces) in blender and 3D printed them. So far working decently well and I've finished most of my Empire infantry. 25mm bases IIRC are of the same height as the 20MM ones, but 40mm is slightly taller, so I can't just scale up and have to redo the mesh -- not a lot of work but wanna get started nonetheless.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609569.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609569.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    its ironic that he gave confederates as an example too, as they have one of the most notable examples of a charge faltering during the ACW - Picketts Charge. Less than a third of the men who charged ever actually reached Union lines, several thousand men reached a depression along Emmitsburg road which offered them shelter for the incoming fire, just 300-400 yards from Union lines, and refused to advance any further and remained in the ditch for the rest of the battle, eventually surrendering to Union forces.


    That wasn't a random die roll, that was the result of deadly converging fire. In Warhammer terms, they charged and got hammered in the resulting "Stand and Shoot." It wasn't because Pickett's regimental commanders started running too soon and ran out of Gatorade.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609571.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609571.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors IIRC Stand & Shoot mechanics in WHFB didn't cause the charge to fail (unless you killed everyone), they only caused casualties prior to the charging unit making contact with its target. You would still need a random charge roll to represent the charge faltering as it advanced under fire.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609574.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609574.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    IIRC Stand & Shoot mechanics in WHFB didn't cause the charge to fail (unless you killed everyone), they only caused casualties prior to the charging unit making contact with its target. You would still need a random charge roll to represent the charge faltering as it advanced under fire.


    A unit that took 25% casualties had to make a morale test.

    Of course, WHFB didn't feature muzzle-loading rifles, so it's not a great example.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609577.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609577.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609578.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609578.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    And a panic test resulting from stand and shoot would result in them fleeing, correct? Because thats a different outcome than faltering or hunkering down and holding instead of completing the maneuver. Ergo, the random dice roll still would serve a purpose in terms of delineating an outcome other than "success" or "abysmal failure and rout".


    It depends on the version. WHFB had troops flee off the field, but the contemporaneous version of 40k had them flee into cover.

    Either way, the failed charge is the result of positive action by the defender, not a random die roll that exists independent of the morale, leadership and troop quality of the attacker. It's a silly mechanic and no other system uses anything like it.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609579.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609579.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609580.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609580.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    It just wasn't fun for me or the people I played with.

    I think a system where "getting the charge" isn't the be all and end all of the game, and the rules are written so offensive type melee units want to move towards the enemy regardless of whether they get the charge in their turn or not and defensive type units get benefits for bracing a charge rather than charging themselves, etc.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609581.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609581.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lcmiracle wrote:
    Charges fail sometimes, period, it's a complex movement of involving a mass of men, end of story. Now move on and don't feed the troll.

    As for actual TOW-related topics, I'm surprised that they haven't even gone into the new base sizes yet. Infantry got moved up to 25mm minimum base size but Cavalry, juding from the photos, remains the same 25x50mm. So now Cavalry units won't be in base contact with as many infantry models as in WHFB. Honestly seems like buff to cavs to me.

    Wonder if there will be a new 30/35mm square base for CW sized miniatures -- I made a 20-to-25 mm square base extender (well rather in 2 parts, files on cults 3D: https://cults3d.com/en/3d-model/game/20mm-to-25mm-base-extender-in-two-pieces) in blender and 3D printed them. So far working decently well and I've finished most of my Empire infantry. 25mm bases IIRC are of the same height as the 20MM ones, but 40mm is slightly taller, so I can't just scale up and have to redo the mesh -- not a lot of work but wanna get started nonetheless.


    Check this article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/14/old-world-development-diary-on-bases-and-the-barons-of-bretonnia/

    I don’t think those Calvary units are on their old base sizes.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609602.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609602.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
     Saber wrote:
    While the GW rule is an abstraction, this is almost literally what happened in ancient and medieval combat. Indeed, it was probably the defining feature of pre-1870 combat: one group musters the courage to charge and they move forward, yelling and throwing things. If they enemy lose their nerve and flees, the attackers pursue. If the enemy holds the attacker may press the charge, or, more likely, they'll slow down and regroup, throwing missiles and curses while one side builds up the nerve to charge again (or flees in panic).


    What you are talking about is a function of morale, not guessing distance or a random die roll. If it was pegged to morale, I'd be fine with it, but it's not.

    There are lots of ways to handle charges, from testing to make them to testing to receive them. No one but GW does a "flip a coin and see if the troops can cover the requisite amount of ground before the shot clock expires."


    Yes, I understand what you're saying but I wanted to be pedantic. What you describe is literally what happened at Pharsalus: Caesar's troops started to charge. When they saw Pompey's troops weren't advancing to meet them, they halted to redress their ranks and save their breath. Then they charged again.

    And other games I play have random charges; A Song of Ice and Fire, for one. Still others have fixed charge distances. I think both systems work.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609604.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609604.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    IIRC Stand & Shoot mechanics in WHFB didn't cause the charge to fail (unless you killed everyone), they only caused casualties prior to the charging unit making contact with its target. You would still need a random charge roll to represent the charge faltering as it advanced under fire.


    A unit that took 25% casualties had to make a morale test.

    Of course, WHFB didn't feature muzzle-loading rifles, so it's not a great example.
    Empire Handgunners* would like to have a word with you

    * While technically muzzle-loaded muskets, it doesn't make that much difference to you when under fire from them.

    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609614.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609614.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I don’t think those Calvary units are on their old base sizes.


    All of the Images they have shown look like 25x50 to me. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609615.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609615.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Justyn wrote:
    I don’t think those Calvary units are on their old base sizes.


    All of the Images they have shown look like 25x50 to me.

    All of the cavalry shown so far comes on bases larger than 25x50 though. Check this article for general comments on bases in TOW. Comparing the Bretonnian Knights on those bases to older images the base size increase is obvious. In articles like this you can also see cavalry on bigger bases than infantry (which is no smaller than 25mm).

    This is not to say that there might not be (cavalry) units remaining on their previous 25x50 bases, but we have seen none of them so far.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609622.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609622.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:IIRC Stand & Shoot mechanics in WHFB didn't cause the charge to fail (unless you killed everyone), they only caused casualties prior to the charging unit making contact with its target. You would still need a random charge roll to represent the charge faltering as it advanced under fire.

    Or that's the reason for a poor combat roll. It's already simulated without the frustration of having to roll for a basic move.
    Troops hiding in a ditch for the rest of the battle are effectively casualties and removing those models simulates that.

    Saber wrote:Yes, I understand what you're saying but I wanted to be pedantic. What you describe is literally what happened at Pharsalus: Caesar's troops started to charge. When they saw Pompey's troops weren't advancing to meet them, they halted to redress their ranks and save their breath. Then they charged again.

    Would that not be an advance in game terms? Perhaps moving into charge range and then deciding not to?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609623.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609623.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
    There are lots of ways to handle charges, from testing to make them to testing to receive them. No one but GW does a "flip a coin and see if the troops can cover the requisite amount of ground before the shot clock expires."


    Set movement plus random movement with a reasonably good chance of doubling your movement plus prior opportunity to maneuver into a favorable position is not a coin flip. A little less hyperbole, please.

    M + 2d6 pick highest adds a little variance to charge distance. It prevents the larger variance of 8th ed charges and allows cavalry, beasts and other fast movers to retain a large part of their ability to dictate charges.

    What it doesn't do is let you line up your M5 elves and charge the humans with their pitiful M4 every single time. An inch of extra movement is still an advantage, but with this charge rule you no longer have binary outcomes between infantry of different races. It's an equalizing factor that makes infantry on infantry clashes a less one-sided affair (and different kinds of other units as well that happen to have similar but not identical movement values). You are now forced to either keep your elves at 10" or 11" to stay safe from being charged by dwarfs and accept that your charge only has a 50% chance to succeed or whatever, or you accept the risk of moving into their threat radius and get charged before you can make the charge. Conversely, by retaining a better charge probability you can try to set up your elf regiments to bait the dwarfs into a low success charge that leaves some units stranded and others isolated in combat and open to counter-charge in the flanks. You can no longer make sure that your entire infantry line is lined up correctly just outside enemy charge range for an all out devastating charge, so if you are inclined to try that, you can but accept the risk that the exact same thing happens to you.

    You can throw around questions of realism all you want, and you are of course free to dislike random charges to your heart's content, but the game mechanic itself has tangible value. Small variance and blurring the exact movement capability of units allows for more dynamism during the game and opens a number of tactical considerations that are not present with fixed charges. It isn't the only way to write charge rules, but no less valid than other solutions.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609667.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609667.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors WS, weapontypes and the corresponding statblocks aswell potential USR's.

    If elves once again always go first, and tactically speaking what toolsets will the armies have, will there finally be a deep enough system and certain overly large gaps be filled for some factions or not.

    Then there's also the problems of certain matchups turn times: Ogrekingdoms vs Skaven. Which ammounts on one side to basically a 10 minute turn and on the other on a 30 minute turn.
    Since we are not getting an AA system or an order system it'd be nice to know if there atleast was a reaction system, beyond stand and shoot.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609681.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609681.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I might get lucky with today's article. Early on, a couple of years back, I mentioned my dislike for the ubiquity of armor save modifiers and how they made armor upgrades basically pointless. I don't have much hope for GW to see the light and take it easy on armor save modifiers. They really don't have a great track record in that regard. But it sure would be nice if troops could actually take the odd armor save instead of basically playing a game where 5+ armor gets circumvented so often that it might as well not exist.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609691.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609691.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Commissar von Toussaint wrote:


    Show me the battle where this happened.

    It's a game mechanic that only exists in the GW universe.


    Has happened multiple times during multiple battles in 18th and 19th century European warfare - we know that because there are numerous firsthand accounts written by the eye witnesses of this era. I currently have Zhmodikov's book on infantry tactics of Russian Imperial Army during the Napoleonic wars, open and right in front of me, and there are examples of infantry starting their rushing sequence way too early, breaking formation or becoming exhausted in the process and being forced to stop, regroup or even retreat back to their initial positions before trying again, and there are also examples of infantry charges being hindered by broken terrain, officers losing sight of their soldiers or vice versa and forcing the rest of the formation to, once again, fall back or at least stop in their tracks, waiting for stragglers. I can even pull quotes out if you need, but since the book is not in English, my translation will have to suffice. There are even examples of charging infantry seeing the enemy ranks sitting still and not wavering before being confronted by frontal assault, and that was enough for troopers to lose their courage and literally under-charge or, in turn, start moving backwards. So actually it did happen exactly like you describe it here:

    Confederates give the rebel yell, surge forward and then, whew, that field is longer than we thought!


    If the field is, indeed, way too long, people will become exhausted under stress early and will be forced to stop before pressing on later or even retreat in confusion, even if the enemy's defensive fire is minimal or absent entirely. Whether you want this mechanic to be present in-game or how punishing it should be is up for debate, but you can't just say "This never happened in real life" if it did, in fact, happen.

    It's a mechanic no other system uses for good reason.


    But that is plainly incorrect. Conquest is a mass battle game similar to WHFB and has random charge distance. Mortal Gods is a skirmish game, but still has random charge distance.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609711.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609711.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors GW will try.

    specifically forget the always strikes first, have an initiative system so they often strike first. And then have probably a sensible WS v WS table such that if they have a decent skill they survive not through wiping their enemy first but by being better fighters

    you can then stick in various stat modifiers for tactical situations, e.g. engaged on multiple fronts, up/down hill, defended positions etc such that even highly skilled fighters can be at a disadvantage, but its going to take player skill to put them there

    the method of letting them strike first was basically a patch for them being very squishy and expensive to make them work, better to actually address how elite units should probably work - they will get swamped by weight of numbers unless you have a halfway decent morale mechanic such that a side that is defeated falls back in some way

    one can hope they maybe look at how Warmaster does it, maybe bonus attacks (for the unit, not for individuals so the output doesn't double etc) or something.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609723.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609723.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Geifer wrote:
    Yeah, I sure hope we get a good melee article next week that answers some of those questions.

    I might get lucky with today's article. Early on, a couple of years back, I mentioned my dislike for the ubiquity of armor save modifiers and how they made armor upgrades basically pointless. I don't have much hope for GW to see the light and take it easy on armor save modifiers. They really don't have a great track record in that regard. But it sure would be nice if troops could actually take the odd armor save instead of basically playing a game where 5+ armor gets circumvented so often that it might as well not exist.


    What was it 13 pts I 6 greatweapons white lions meaning -2 on your armor, whilest a chaos warrior was where in points (?)... And people wonder why tzeentch or nurgle were basically the single most prevalent marks.... on supposedly baseline tough as nails infantry...


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    leopard wrote:
    Think Elves need a complete re-think in how they work, as indeed does anything meant to be elite. the game framework will likely allow this, its if GW will try.

    specifically forget the always strikes first, have an initiative system so they often strike first. And then have probably a sensible WS v WS table such that if they have a decent skill they survive not through wiping their enemy first but by being better fighters

    you can then stick in various stat modifiers for tactical situations, e.g. engaged on multiple fronts, up/down hill, defended positions etc such that even highly skilled fighters can be at a disadvantage, but its going to take player skill to put them there

    the method of letting them strike first was basically a patch for them being very squishy and expensive to make them work, better to actually address how elite units should probably work - they will get swamped by weight of numbers unless you have a halfway decent morale mechanic such that a side that is defeated falls back in some way

    one can hope they maybe look at how Warmaster does it, maybe bonus attacks (for the unit, not for individuals so the output doesn't double etc) or something.


    honestly i hope they pull an HH in regards to morale, and basically remove fearlessness etc on the vast majority of armies outright, even the eye of the gods for chaos warriors. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609746.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609746.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/11/13/old-world-almanack-darken-the-skies-with-volleys-of-arrows-quarrels-shot-bolts-balls-and-screaming-skulls/]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609789.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609789.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/11/13/old-world-almanack-darken-the-skies-with-volleys-of-arrows-quarrels-shot-bolts-balls-and-screaming-skulls/



    Volley Fire allows a second rank to shoot



    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609790.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609790.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors BS is still a lookup, shifting that so the stat becomes "3+" or "6/4+" would seem to make sense at this point

    volley fire is sensible

    guessing "Armourbane (1)" is a fancy way of saying -1 to your save? would adding an Armour Penetration stat not be easier?

    otherwise though nothing too outlandish and seems reasonable]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609796.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609796.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    leopard wrote:

    guessing "Armourbane (1)" is a fancy way of saying -1 to your save? would adding an Armour Penetration stat not be easier?


    There literally is an Armour Penetration stat ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609798.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609798.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors Wonder if we'll see Necromancy, Elementalism and Illusion as well

    Vortex of Chaos is... interesting. Damage-wise its pretty naff (d6+1 S3 IF the _moving_ template touches or moves over units) But the template hangs about as dangerous terrain, which has a lot more potential to cause problems.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609799.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609799.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    leopard wrote:

    guessing "Armourbane (1)" is a fancy way of saying -1 to your save? would adding an Armour Penetration stat not be easier?


    There literally is an Armour Penetration stat


    one wonders what the purpose of adding a USR that does basically the same thing will be?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609800.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609800.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors Fw resin?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609801.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609801.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     GaroRobe wrote:
    What are the chances that the screaming skull catapult will be Fw resin?


    probably quite high, I think we will get some new plastic characters, maybe a unit or two (e.g. the foot knights already shown, and hopefully new skellingtons) but otherwise if it was metal, it will be resin]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609802.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609802.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    A tiny bit tweaked with those old house rules for rolling a 7 or 8.

    Getting optimisitc about this edition. I have to say it.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609803.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609803.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    leopard wrote:
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    leopard wrote:

    guessing "Armourbane (1)" is a fancy way of saying -1 to your save? would adding an Armour Penetration stat not be easier?


    There literally is an Armour Penetration stat


    one wonders what the purpose of adding a USR that does basically the same thing will be?

    To counteract stacking modifiers and making things like shields more valuable.

    If Armourbane(1) gives you the ability to always reduce a save by 1, then those optional shields for some units become waaay more important.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609804.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609804.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors USR if something is different (ie, a Str 3 longbow with Armorbane [1]) to having every weapon having a unique AP value.

    I can't explain why that's easier to get through my thick skull; I just prefer it I guess? ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609805.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609805.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    leopard wrote:
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    leopard wrote:

    guessing "Armourbane (1)" is a fancy way of saying -1 to your save? would adding an Armour Penetration stat not be easier?


    There literally is an Armour Penetration stat


    one wonders what the purpose of adding a USR that does basically the same thing will be?


    Maybe Armour Bane is something more fiddly like "ignore 1 armour but can't ignore a Shield" or "ignore 1 armour on a hit roll of 6" etc]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609806.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609806.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    leopard wrote:
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    leopard wrote:

    guessing "Armourbane (1)" is a fancy way of saying -1 to your save? would adding an Armour Penetration stat not be easier?


    There literally is an Armour Penetration stat


    one wonders what the purpose of adding a USR that does basically the same thing will be?


    Maybe Armour Bane is something more fiddly like "ignore 1 armour but can't ignore a Shield" or "ignore 1 armour on a hit roll of 6" etc


    will see when it all comes out, I'm sure there is some logic to it, somewhere, hopefully it all flows nicely]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609808.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609808.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    leopard wrote:
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    leopard wrote:

    guessing "Armourbane (1)" is a fancy way of saying -1 to your save? would adding an Armour Penetration stat not be easier?


    There literally is an Armour Penetration stat


    one wonders what the purpose of adding a USR that does basically the same thing will be?


    I would dare to make prediction it isn't just ap added. By very least some condition like be in half range or to wound roll 6 or something.,

    Also confirmation some models can be used both aos and tow.

    Why not phoenix guard...

    Maybe my bonesplitters and spiderfang won't become paperweights.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609810.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609810.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors with the added line that not always everyone can shoot

    not sure of that thing will see play or just be ignored by everyone]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609811.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609811.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     KidCthulhu wrote:
    Personally, I prefer using weapon strength and then a USR if something is different (ie, a Str 3 longbow with Armorbane [1]) to having every weapon having a unique AP value.

    I can't explain why that's easier to get through my thick skull; I just prefer it I guess?


    Right, but this does both. Every weapon has a unique AP value and armorbane (X) also exists.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609812.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609812.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     kodos wrote:
    Line of sight is checked for each model within a unit
    with the added line that not always everyone can shoot

    not sure of that thing will see play or just be ignored by everyone


    So just like always been in fb. And also in 40k/aos...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609813.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609813.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors AP and went, "well, that's because it's Str 3" without even realizing I was even looking at an AP stat!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609814.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609814.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors AP at close range.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609815.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609815.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    leopard wrote:
     GaroRobe wrote:
    What are the chances that the screaming skull catapult will be Fw resin?


    probably quite high, I think we will get some new plastic characters, maybe a unit or two (e.g. the foot knights already shown, and hopefully new skellingtons) but otherwise if it was metal, it will be resin


    Not necessarily as they've already suggested that there will be old metal models on offer (if so, probably those that never made it to Finecast). ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609821.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609821.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609864.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609864.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Rihgu wrote:
    I'm guessing Armour Bane (1) plays into the fluff mention of being "even deadlier at short range". So extra AP at close range.

    Yeah it’s probably something like “Armourbane [X] - when firing at a target within half maximum range, this weapon gains additional save modifier equal to -X.”
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609867.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609867.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    Wouldve preferred a wound table with more consistent logic, its not the worst in the world (S=T is always 4+, +1S gets you a 3+, +2S or more gets you a 2+, -1S gets you a 5+, -2S gets you a 6+, but then transitioning to '-' from the 6 basically seems totally random? I guess technically its +6S), but could be better.



    4 times 6, then impossible to wound.

    S+6(or more)=impossible to wound.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609878.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609878.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Rihgu wrote:
    I'm guessing Armour Bane (1) plays into the fluff mention of being "even deadlier at short range". So extra AP at close range.


    Ding ding! Very probably that it gets AP -1 (using the number in bracket) at half range.

    Loving what I'm seeing there for the shooting. Using higher BS and getting a re-roll it quite a neat bonus, it will be mostly for characters so very few shot will benefit, but I like it a lot to make it worthwhile having some BS 6-7+ for your heros and lords and having a little bonus to show for it without breaking the bank. Good job on that.

    Also great to see that hitting on 7+ remain (or came back, 8th edition is too far back for me to remember if it was in there or not ).

    The S/T chart is interesting, a bit different but great to see that 6+ is not an auto wound for all range. Now we just need to see if anything will have a high enough toughness to benefit from it. Sphinxes for the TK were at T8 in the last book and amongst the highest T you could get if I remember right, curious to see if any stats will change.

    The Screaming Skull probably have the most special rules of anything, love it ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609880.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609880.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mr_Rose wrote:
     Rihgu wrote:
    I'm guessing Armour Bane (1) plays into the fluff mention of being "even deadlier at short range". So extra AP at close range.

    Yeah it’s probably something like “Armourbane [X] - when firing at a target within half maximum range, this weapon gains additional save modifier equal to -X.”


    15 " -1 armor... yikes.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609898.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609898.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Not Online!!! wrote:
     Mr_Rose wrote:
     Rihgu wrote:
    I'm guessing Armour Bane (1) plays into the fluff mention of being "even deadlier at short range". So extra AP at close range.

    Yeah it’s probably something like “Armourbane [X] - when firing at a target within half maximum range, this weapon gains additional save modifier equal to -X.”


    15 " -1 armor... yikes.


    Can't be much worse than Woof Elves getting 30" Arcane Bodkins (at -3!)]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609903.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609903.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609911.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609911.page GMT Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors WS chart is also old school with high WS hitting on 2+ on even auto hitting.

    Can't be much worse than Woof Elves getting 30" Arcane Bodkins (at -3!)


    Was there anything about the WE that was fun to play against ever]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609917.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609917.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Putting AP as a separate stat is good for clarity, IMO, that is assuming the AP table from strength is translated into the state directly. Also not sure if Armourbane is some kind of separate rule given Handguns in past editions has S4 as well as AP, thus giving in a combined armour modifier of -2. If they opt to keep the AP stat directly tied to weapon strength it can explain why "Armourbane" is needed. Though I would prefer if it does something different from AP.

    Liking the blast template with warmachines, seems hopeful that cannons will behave the same as they always have been; I'm actually quite hoping bolt throwers getting the same rules as cannons, just with reduced strength per model killed, just for consistency’s sake.

    Though I do worry that, with the new to-wound table, and given a long enough lifespan of the system leading to a possible over-proliferation of giant monsters, as is FW's want, that will lead to an abundance of monsters that needs specialized lists to take out.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609934.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609934.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Besides, very few people actually want 8th edition - the director’s cut anyway so I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing either. ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609937.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609937.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609944.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609944.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609947.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609947.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     The Phazer wrote:
    Again, very happy with all of this, feels like a slight refinement of 5th/6th ed and what I wanted.


    Yep agreed, still not sure about the magic phase being split up but I don't have any negatives about that it's just something new.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    Well, if what little we have been told of the game is accurate, your ranged units (like archers) will likely be fielded in wide formations rather than deep ones. I.E. a regiment of 20 models will be fielded in 2 ranks of 10, rather than 4 ranks of 5, that way you are getting the full effect of volley fire.


    That's not a new thing though, I don't think anybody fielded their ranged regiments in a block.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609948.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609948.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Rihgu wrote:
    Not Online!!! wrote:
     Mr_Rose wrote:
     Rihgu wrote:
    I'm guessing Armour Bane (1) plays into the fluff mention of being "even deadlier at short range". So extra AP at close range.

    Yeah it’s probably something like “Armourbane [X] - when firing at a target within half maximum range, this weapon gains additional save modifier equal to -X.”


    15 " -1 armor... yikes.


    Can't be much worse than Woof Elves getting 30" Arcane Bodkins (at -3!)


    my chaos warrior army already is colecting dust, didn't need another reason to remain that way.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609950.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609950.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Olthannon wrote:


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    Well, if what little we have been told of the game is accurate, your ranged units (like archers) will likely be fielded in wide formations rather than deep ones. I.E. a regiment of 20 models will be fielded in 2 ranks of 10, rather than 4 ranks of 5, that way you are getting the full effect of volley fire.


    That's not a new thing though, I don't think anybody fielded their ranged regiments in a block.


    Thats what I thought, but Im sure I have seen a recent TOW-article with a picture of a huge block och bretonnian archers that made me react despite my limited experience with Fantasy Battle.
    Edit: at the lower part of this article https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/14/old-world-development-diary-on-bases-and-the-barons-of-bretonnia/ four by four blocks of archers, or perhaps eight by four. But then again, it might just be a wonky way of dislpaying units, like having characters running around by them self.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609951.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609951.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors AP- has me cautiously optimistic. Unless that's something exclusive to magic, they decoupled armor save modifiers from strength. If true, that's a good move in my book.

    I'm not sure what the point of that to-wound table is. Unless a whole lot of things get a toughness boost, effectively sixes still wound in the overwhelming number of cases. I would have preferred if they hadn't been so liberal as to give a range of four toughness values a 6+ to wound.

    I hope the restriction to only the first rank firing without special rules is indicative of smaller unit size caps.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609953.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609953.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Not Online!!! wrote:
     Rihgu wrote:
    Not Online!!! wrote:
     Mr_Rose wrote:
     Rihgu wrote:
    I'm guessing Armour Bane (1) plays into the fluff mention of being "even deadlier at short range". So extra AP at close range.

    Yeah it’s probably something like “Armourbane [X] - when firing at a target within half maximum range, this weapon gains additional save modifier equal to -X.”


    15 " -1 armor... yikes.


    Can't be much worse than Woof Elves getting 30" Arcane Bodkins (at -3!)


    my chaos warrior army already is colecting dust, didn't need another reason to remain that way.

    This AP1 may sound scary until you realise that without that on average you need 9 BS3 archers to kill a single Orc Boy with light armour and shield at close range...and this AP1 doesn't really change this math too much.

    S3 shooting used to be anti- fast cavalry/ lone mages/ maybe skirmish tool and with the same math as in 6th it's not going to be different here. A very important tool, sure, as who wins the battle of support units, wins the game, but hardly a scary prospect for Chaos Warriors ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609962.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609962.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Fayric wrote:
     Olthannon wrote:


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    chaos0xomega wrote:
    Well, if what little we have been told of the game is accurate, your ranged units (like archers) will likely be fielded in wide formations rather than deep ones. I.E. a regiment of 20 models will be fielded in 2 ranks of 10, rather than 4 ranks of 5, that way you are getting the full effect of volley fire.


    That's not a new thing though, I don't think anybody fielded their ranged regiments in a block.


    Thats what I thought, but Im sure I have seen a recent TOW-article with a picture of a huge block och bretonnian archers that made me react despite my limited experience with Fantasy Battle.
    Edit: at the lower part of this article https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/14/old-world-development-diary-on-bases-and-the-barons-of-bretonnia/ four by four blocks of archers, or perhaps eight by four. But then again, it might just be a wonky way of dislpaying units, like having characters running around by them self.


    That too continues good old tradition of fb era white dwarf pics gw goes retro hard here

    Next they return goblin green paint...]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609965.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609965.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609970.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609970.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    tneva82 wrote:

    That too continues good old tradition of fb era white dwarf pics gw goes retro hard here

    Next they return goblin green paint...


    They do occasionally release new paints to go with new armies. Releasing a new Goblin Green base paint to tie into the nostalgia would be a great idea. I’d grab a pot; mine is running low.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609977.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609977.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors gw so if you need it you can get it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609980.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609980.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
    Wonder if with Volley, and standing on a hill, in the dark, with an Owl, will grant a third rank of shooting, or if it just caps out at the two?

    From the article:
    Models can (almost always) shoot only once, no matter how many Attacks they have in their profile, and unless they have the Volley Fire special rule or are stationed on a hill, only the front rank may fire.
    The "or" seems to indicate that you can only benefit from one such factor. Depending on how exactly those two rules are phrased ("an additional rank may shoot" or "the second rank may shoot") it might allow three (or more?) ranks to shoot under certain conditions. Right now it feels like they are going for "one rank, and maybe a second one but no more".]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609981.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609981.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Cyel wrote:
    Not Online!!! wrote:
     Rihgu wrote:
    Not Online!!! wrote:
     Mr_Rose wrote:
     Rihgu wrote:
    I'm guessing Armour Bane (1) plays into the fluff mention of being "even deadlier at short range". So extra AP at close range.

    Yeah it’s probably something like “Armourbane [X] - when firing at a target within half maximum range, this weapon gains additional save modifier equal to -X.”


    15 " -1 armor... yikes.


    Can't be much worse than Woof Elves getting 30" Arcane Bodkins (at -3!)


    my chaos warrior army already is colecting dust, didn't need another reason to remain that way.

    This AP1 may sound scary until you realise that without that on average you need 9 BS3 archers to kill a single Orc Boy with light armour and shield at close range...and this AP1 doesn't really change this math too much.

    S3 shooting used to be anti- fast cavalry/ lone mages/ maybe skirmish tool and with the same math as in 6th it's not going to be different here. A very important tool, sure, as who wins the battle of support units, wins the game, but hardly a scary prospect for Chaos Warriors


    Except….when I shoot you? I’m not aiming for a wipe out, and unless I’m very lucky I’m not even expecting a panic test. What I am trying to achieve is to start eroding your rank bonus, so when combat comes, you’re hopefully on the back foot.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609992.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609992.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    tneva82 wrote:
    Coat'd'arms(or whatever it's called exactly) sells same colours(literally) as that era gw so if you need it you can get it.


    I know, but it would be a great little bit of retro marketing.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609995.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609995.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609999.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11609999.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610003.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610003.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610005.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610005.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Santtu wrote:People have already decided that volley fire is just shooting from the second rank, but wouldn't it be more logical that it's the same rule from the 8th edition? (half the models in the rear ranks can shoot)


    Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Well, they told us what Volley means


    Yes, that only the front rank may fire unless you have Volley or are on a hill. So to the letter of that statement any number of ranks can fire with volley or on a hill, until they expand further, people are nostalgia glasses-ing the rules.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610007.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610007.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Cyel wrote:



    This AP1 may sound scary until you realise that without that on average you need 9 BS3 archers to kill a single Orc Boy with light armour and shield at close range...and this AP1 doesn't really change this math too much.

    S3 shooting used to be anti- fast cavalry/ lone mages/ maybe skirmish tool and with the same math as in 6th it's not going to be different here. A very important tool, sure, as who wins the battle of support units, wins the game, but hardly a scary prospect for Chaos Warriors


    Well, it certainly shreds barbarian cav and it still trades very likely well into points against even "hard" targets like that. I'd rather avoid being forced into tzeentch or nurgle again permanently on my chaos warriors to not get attritioned to death. But that will be a debate for when we see the points GW gives.
    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610017.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610017.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610032.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610032.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors AP-1 in half range is going to make much difference.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610037.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610037.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    armourbane in 40k/HH is half range bonus to vehicle penetration, so one assumes it's just -1AP within half range.

    For the elves, there are a range of options to help them.

    For example, they could just get a flat -1 to hit an elf, in melee or shooting. Being T3 won't matter if they get hit less.

    Or they could inflict a -1 to hit when being charged.

    You could have a '2s count as 1s for hitting' rule, where 2s are auto misses whether people could or not.

    basically, IMO they should just be harder to hit and use that as their defence. This is what the eldar in 40k should have, but they keep degrading those rules into nothing but pro-marine mechanics.







    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610043.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610043.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors ws and better shield/weapon types.

    Not by just once again letting elves get away with not playing the same game.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610046.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610046.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Dudeface wrote:
    Santtu wrote:People have already decided that volley fire is just shooting from the second rank, but wouldn't it be more logical that it's the same rule from the 8th edition? (half the models in the rear ranks can shoot)


    Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Well, they told us what Volley means


    Yes, that only the front rank may fire unless you have Volley or are on a hill. So to the letter of that statement any number of ranks can fire with volley or on a hill, until they expand further, people are nostalgia glasses-ing the rules.


    Accurate point is accurate! ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610047.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610047.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Not Online!!! wrote:
    You achieve that with high ws and better shield/weapon types.

    Not by just once again letting elves get away with not playing the same game.


    That's spurious reasoning. Orcs don't play the same game as everyone else because no one else has animosity. Dwarfs don't play the same game because no one else can ignore march blocking like they did. Lizardmen and morale tests on 3D6 etc ad nauseum.

    Army wide special rules automatically make an army 'not play the same game' as other people. That's their point. And the elves are no different. I am an ardent disliker of the elf army getting ASF and was since it was introduced in 8th, but that's not the same thing as saying 'elves can't get any special rule that affects their ability to fight or be struck in combat'.

    High WS only works if the hit table reflects it - now that's a potentially good bet given the similarities between WFB and HH mechanics and rule names so far shown - the BS hit table is the same in HH. In which case their melee defence won't be bad assuming they're going to be WS4 or higher and no one else's WS has changed. They will be very vulnerable to shooting however, and their bowman plastics don't get shields so counterfire will decimate them.



    ]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610048.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610048.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Darkial wrote:
    I would like to also point out that templates are coming back! I understand why some people get competitive and bitter over then but I'm my gaming circles it has always been pretty fair and I like how they introduce a visual factor for the big rocks and explosions.


    Agreed. Im not looking for a good tournament set of rules. Just something wirkable for friendly competative.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610049.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610049.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    I’d advocate them getting rules to allow more of their models to fight. Not just higher than average WS, but represent their martial discipline by allowing an extra rank of attacks.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610050.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610050.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
    Being squishy is kind of part and parcel of being an Elf.

    I’d advocate them getting rules to allow more of their models to fight. Not just higher than average WS, but represent their martial discipline by allowing an extra rank of attacks.


    Lorewise Elves are no more squishy than humans, just faster and almost always far more exprienced. They are almost always arrogant and overconfident, not sure how to relect that in rules?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610053.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610053.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Hellebore wrote:
    Not Online!!! wrote:
    You achieve that with high ws and better shield/weapon types.

    Not by just once again letting elves get away with not playing the same game.


    That's spurious reasoning. Orcs don't play the same game as everyone else because no one else has animosity. Dwarfs don't play the same game because no one else can ignore march blocking like they did. Lizardmen and morale tests on 3D6 etc ad nauseum.

    Army wide special rules automatically make an army 'not play the same game' as other people. That's their point. And the elves are no different. I am an ardent disliker of the elf army getting ASF and was since it was introduced in 8th, but that's not the same thing as saying 'elves can't get any special rule that affects their ability to fight or be struck in combat'.

    High WS only works if the hit table reflects it - now that's a potentially good bet given the similarities between WFB and HH mechanics and rule names so far shown - the BS hit table is the same in HH. In which case their melee defence won't be bad assuming they're going to be WS4 or higher and no one else's WS has changed. They will be very vulnerable to shooting however, and their bowman plastics don't get shields so counterfire will decimate them.



    There is a massive difference between ASF/asf light and just basically ignoring 1/6th of a result, which btw good luck playing a low stat army into elves because then you imported one of the worst problems 8th edition 40k had with negative hit modifiers halfing some armies output whilest others just get mildly inconvenienced.
    No high ws and something showing their skill in formation warfare or skirmishing in the case of WE is far better.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610056.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610056.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors WRT Armourbane, doesn’t HH have a USR where you get extra AP on a 6 to wound?

    Could be something like that?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610072.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610072.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
    Being squishy is kind of part and parcel of being an Elf.

    I’d advocate them getting rules to allow more of their models to fight. Not just higher than average WS, but represent their martial discipline by allowing an extra rank of attacks.


    Didn’t they always get the extra ranks with archers and spears? Or was that just a special unit? Last time I played against high elves was 5th.

    Extra initiative and WS, plus good magic and some nice special rules always seemed to make them feel good and elite on the table, at least from the other side of the battlefield.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610089.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610089.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    They had Sea Guard on and off, a combined arms unit with Bows and Spears. And importantly, Shields.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610090.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610090.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610112.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610112.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Mr_Rose wrote:
    It outright says that longbows have volley fire which means shoot in ranks. I don’t think giving the commonest weapon in the game is “nerfing” it exactly. Restraining it a little, sure.

    Besides, very few people actually want 8th edition - the director’s cut anyway so I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing either.


    Longbows won't be the "most common" weapons in the game, if past editions are anything to go by, AFAIK only Bretonnian peasant archers and some HE archers gets this (WE also gets this but they had to make their even more special in 8th I guess). Turns out Empire archers in 6th have Longbows but lost it since 7th.

    But more to the point all bows gained the volley fire USR in 8th edition, where every unit also gained supporting attacks when attacking with the front rank too. So compared to 8th, TOW bows gets 1 + 1/2 * Ceiling(n-1) ranks, assuming the same Volley Fire rule, whereas in 8th it'd be 2 + 1/2 * Ceiling(n-2) ranks, where n is the number of complete ranks in the unit.

    Sure if there are fewer than 3 ranks the USR won't make a difference, but at 3 ranks that's one extra rank in 8th vs. the previous edition that are allowed to shoot.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610114.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610114.page GMT     Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610119.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610119.page GMT Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Nevelon wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:

    That too continues good old tradition of fb era white dwarf pics gw goes retro hard here

    Next they return goblin green paint...


    They do occasionally release new paints to go with new armies. Releasing a new Goblin Green base paint to tie into the nostalgia would be a great idea. I’d grab a pot; mine is running low.



    With the absolute lack of simple green flock at any of the FLGS's in my area I'm hoping this will facilitate a nostalgia push for restocking THAT.


    Hellebore wrote:
    Not Online!!! wrote:
    You achieve that with high ws and better shield/weapon types.

    Not by just once again letting elves get away with not playing the same game.


    That's spurious reasoning. Orcs don't play the same game as everyone else because no one else has animosity. Dwarfs don't play the same game because no one else can ignore march blocking like they did. Lizardmen and morale tests on 3D6 etc ad nauseum.

    Army wide special rules automatically make an army 'not play the same game' as other people. That's their point. And the elves are no different. I am an ardent disliker of the elf army getting ASF and was since it was introduced in 8th, but that's not the same thing as saying 'elves can't get any special rule that affects their ability to fight or be struck in combat'.

    High WS only works if the hit table reflects it - now that's a potentially good bet given the similarities between WFB and HH mechanics and rule names so far shown - the BS hit table is the same in HH. In which case their melee defence won't be bad assuming they're going to be WS4 or higher and no one else's WS has changed. They will be very vulnerable to shooting however, and their bowman plastics don't get shields so counterfire will decimate them.






    Agree with all you've said with the exception that ASF/Speed Of Asuryan was introduced in the 7th Ed. rulebook and was basically the start of the Armywide Special Rules War that gave us the 7th Ed Dark Elves book and all the trash that followed.


    Nevelon wrote:
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
    Being squishy is kind of part and parcel of being an Elf.

    I’d advocate them getting rules to allow more of their models to fight. Not just higher than average WS, but represent their martial discipline by allowing an extra rank of attacks.


    Didn’t they always get the extra ranks with archers and spears? Or was that just a special unit? Last time I played against high elves was 5th.

    Extra initiative and WS, plus good magic and some nice special rules always seemed to make them feel good and elite on the table, at least from the other side of the battlefield.



    The two ranks of Archers firing for High Elves last appeared in Ravening Hordes in 6th. It was removed in the 6th Army Book and without checking (I'm at work) wasn't brought back for the 7th or 8th books.

    Three ranks of Spearmen fighting never went away unless it got killed in 8th.



    Armor Piercing being a separate stat with weapons is going to open up the exact awful issues we had with 40K weapons, in my mind.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610129.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610129.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     Just Tony wrote:

    The two ranks of Archers firing for High Elves last appeared in Ravening Hordes in 6th. It was removed in the 6th Army Book and without checking (I'm at work) wasn't brought back for the 7th or 8th books.

    Three ranks of Spearmen fighting never went away unless it got killed in 8th.


    8th gave all Elves in the HE army list the Martial Prowess special rule:
    https://8th.whfb.app/special-rules/martial-prowess

    Which flat out gave them an extra rank to supporting attacks. So, 3 ranks with spears to the front and 3 ranks of shooting with bows even without the volley fire ranks.

    P.S.: didn't see the AP value on the SSC, just noticed the S8 hit only gave -3 AP, which would have been -5 if the older strength-to-AP rules are kept; so yeah, AP seems to have been completely decoupled from S.]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610132.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610132.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     DarkBlack wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
    Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
     Vulcan wrote:
    The risk in random charges can be managed. The risk of Animosity largely can't. Why is the manageable risk 'too random' and the unmanageable risk 'fun'?

    No, that's a serious question. Because of the two, Animosity seems to be far better at wrecking battle plans than failing a long-shot random charge. Especially as we don't know yet whether charging will be as combat-wrecking as it was in 7th, or merely a trivial +1 bonus to combat res as in 8th.


    I hate random charges because they make no sense. I can't think of a single battle where one side charged the other and then, you know, got winded and stopped. Units have refused to charge, or drifted away from the intended target, but GW is unique in the notion that troops otherwise in position to engage will fail to do so.


    Yea. Troops always start the charge run precisely at right distance. Never ever too early. Humans are infallible after all carrying laser pointers in middle ages after all.

    There is not such thing as a set distance that someone can charge. You keep running until you get there.
    The danger is if troops ran too far, then they would get exhausted and be ineffective when they got to the enemy.


    So... instead of your unit failing to make it into combat, you'd rather see it successfully charge, and take some hefty penalty like being reduced to WS1 or some such?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610135.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610135.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
     lcmiracle wrote:
    Which flat out gave them an extra rank to supporting attacks. So, 3 ranks with spears to the front and 3 ranks of shooting with bows even without the volley fire ranks.


    What this says is that the stats reflecting quality were simply not sufficient to create the desire outcome. Put simply, ten elf models should dust ten goblin models, and it shouldn't be close. The extra ranks were an admission that the core combat factors (specifically WS) was not all that important. Skill didn't count for more than mass.

    This was a major catalyst for my design philosophy. I wanted elf units to have enough of a qualitative superiority that they didn't need extra ranks of spear or archer to win against horde armies.

    I'm very interested to see how GW approaches this in the new edition. Will they fix the core mechanics, or continue their longstanding practice of using special rules to fix the design deficiency?]]>     http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610136.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/807983/11610136.page GMT     Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
    Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
     lcmiracle wrote:
    Which flat out gave them an extra rank to supporting attacks. So, 3 ranks with spears to the front and 3 ranks of shooting with bows even without the volley fire ranks.


    What this says is that the stats reflecting quality were simply not sufficient to create the desire outcome. Put simply, ten elf models should dust ten goblin models, and it shouldn't be close. The extra ranks were an admission that the core combat factors (specifically WS) was not all that important. Skill didn't count for more than mass.

    This was a major catalyst for my design philosophy. I wanted elf units to have enough of a qualitative superiority that they didn't need extra ranks of spear or archer to win against horde armies.

    I'm very interested to see how GW approaches this in the new edition. Will they fix the core mechanics, or continue their longstanding practice of using special rules to fix the design deficiency?


    Disagree, the Elves WS4 would have dusted the Goblins but some of the defining quality of Goblins is superior numericality. The Elves shouldn't have some kind of army wide ASF precisely because they already have all the tools to help them be qualitatively better, objectively, with above average weapons skills, above average leadership, above average initiative, above average fighting capacities demonstrated in long-standing rules to represent their ability to fight in extra ranks.

    They should be overwhelmed by numbers