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Tyel wrote:
I'm quite negative after this. Maybe as some people seem to be arguing it was a realistic tonic.

But ultimately if TOW is going to be models from 10-30 years ago (maybe some newer AoS on square bases, who knows), with a few Finecast characters and perhaps the odd new plastic kit, I'm just not interested.

Ultimately their current offer is 'some' Bretonnia and Khemri, two factions that were probably not among the top sellers, in an as-of-yet undetermined mix of plastic, FW resin and metal, in an as of yet unspecified release model, with rules coming in as of yet unspecified 'army book equivalents, and then a heap of promises that actually cool stuff would be coming some time in the future.

As i said before, they don't seem to know where they want to be going with all of this.

Judging by the facts that they are actually showing, and not by proclamations, promises and other things starting with 'p', it will be very daunting to start this game if you don't have a WHFB army already or can source a pre-owned one on the cheap; handling FW resin, possibly for whole regiments, is not something to look forward to, and there is a real risk plastics will come with limited availability, or important parts of each range as direct-only or even MTO. The game, as we have been shown it now, runs a very real risk of withering on the vine due to these concerns.

I love the old world as a setting, but all of this shapes up to a game that picks the worst parts of several different release models and consequently turns out as a stupid product nobody asked for.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
I think people imagined something closer to Horus Heresy, given they said this would be the Horus Heresy to AoS's 40k.

A Horus Heresy level of support for TOW would come out to maybe 1 new plastic kit per faction on average. Which checks out with what was said?

For many here when it was revealed that the game would be set during an Empire Civil War, our assumption was it would see a HH 2.0 style release - "indexes" for legacy content on launch, with a launch release of a full armies worth of models that could be used to represent the various feuding Civil War factions, while they slowly rolled out additional factions over time.

A new hero/unit per existing WHFB faction just sounds kind of tedious tbh.

I agree with Blackfang. There are 16 armies for WHFB, It is really unreasonable to expect a brand-new plastic kit for every unit in every army. One or two plastic kits per year would not be pretty reasonable since GW's main focus is on 40K and their reskinned 40k, AOS.

 Gallahad wrote:
Lol. What vaporware. Community waited what? Three(?) years for a couple middling resin characters? And no real info on what is coming. They can't even definitvely tell us what base sizes things will use.

What a joke. Very glad I've moved on to superior systems from companies that don't treat me with disdain.

You know, I hadn't thought of it that way, but its not totally wrong. Crazy lack of detail here after years, and for a game where most of the work is really already done if they are not creating a ton of new kits.

 Paymaster Games wrote:
I agree with Blackfang. There are 16 armies for WHFB, It is really unreasonable to expect a brand-new plastic kit for every unit in every army.

no one, literally no one ever claimed that
never
this is the same bs is if people talking about better balance and someone comes around with "stop asking for perfect balance, this does not exist" now one did it, no one wants it

the point is simple, one reason why Bretonnia and Khemri did not sell well back in the old days was the mix of old and very old and new models that did not really fit together
if they now release that very mix of models again, why should it be different now

now ones wants all factions re-done at once, but we expect support that avoids the mistakes of the past and not repeating them hence at least 1 re-designed faction should be there
and we have already discussed how GW could add more than 1 with a minimum of afford

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I've been enthusiastic and even eager for ToW up until now, but some of this stuff has really started to sway me in the other direction.

No starter set just seems baffling. What was the last game GW released that didn't have a starter set of some kind? It's even more absurd when part of the reason WHFB was ended was because it wasn't easy to get into. Several armies being playable but seemingly not getting anything beyond that also feels bad.

It already feels like they don't know what they're really doing and are just making it all up as they go, with little thought. It comes across as bringing it back only to take it in a direction that'll result in it being discarded again.

Again, I think they're really doing a two phase release. It's taking a long time for them to get TOW out the door as a product, COVID no doubt screwed up the timeline and folks are rightfully getting impatient. Their doing phase 1 release of basically preexisting content and new rules to get the game back into people's hands and on their tables so as to not squander the hype any more than they already have while they continue working on "phase 2" which was their originally planned product launch (three emperors narrative stuff, launch box of two rival empire armies. etc).

There's absolutely no evidence of that, though. Nowhere has something like a "two rival empire armies" launch box been suggested, either before or now.

They said during the panel/q&a that the age of three emperors content would be coming later, well after the launch of the game and Bretonnia/Tomb Kings, etc, and that the Three Emperors stuff will be the main avenue of focus through which the games future would be developed, so that's pretty clearly evidence that it's a two-step product launch if first they are launching the game with free online rules for existibg kideld, etc and then later releasing new stuff. If they are going too have a big launch box like Horus Heresy, it's probably not going to be a box filled with old outdated kits, so that three emperors stuff is the likely candidate, and since they said three emperors won't be the initial release of the game.... do the math.

Well sorry for not magically knowing about something that wasn't streamed, wasn't included in summaries that i've seen, and hasn't been mentioned in this thread before you randomly bought it up in a way that seemed to just be a theory without you including anything to directly support it, I guess.

I like most of what they have revealed:
-They will re-release old kits and even metal models to some degree, meaning you can expand your old army, or compleat the army you have tried to scrape together since the "post end times purge".
-The new stuff they are making are true to the style of the old range, perhaps just trying to fill some gaps in the lists and characters that need representation.

Now I would really like to know if they bring back old scenery kits
And, you know, get a hint if the rules are contemporary new stuff or just a more stylish 6th edition rip-off.

Sathrut wrote:
"New stuff for AoS unlikely to be ported back to WHF." - from screengrab

Just because GW won't port back new AoS units doesn't mean that the player community can't get the job done. The player base has created stuff for Necromunda and Titanicus that looks amazing (and has fewer errors than FW's rules).

Let's face it, those Freeguild Cavaliers look amazing. Someone somewhere will absolutely whip up a unit profile so they can be taken as a rare choice for Empire.

 Gallahad wrote:
Lol. What vaporware. Community waited what? Three(?) years for a couple middling resin characters? And no real info on what is coming. They can't even definitvely tell us what base sizes things will use.

What a joke. Very glad I've moved on to superior systems from companies that don't treat me with disdain.

Yes. The lack of a release date and 2 resin heroes is spitting on us.

As can be seen in this thread going back, I'ven been enthusiastic about ttb TOW, but it is clearly vaporware and will never be released in any meaningful way. I'd take an unedited release of 6th, 7th or 8th with the old models, but seeing how things are I gues WAP or KoW is more sensible to waste time on.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
I think people imagined something closer to Horus Heresy, given they said this would be the Horus Heresy to AoS's 40k.

A Horus Heresy level of support for TOW would come out to maybe 1 new plastic kit per faction on average. Which checks out with what was said?

For many here when it was revealed that the game would be set during an Empire Civil War, our assumption was it would see a HH 2.0 style release - "indexes" for legacy content on launch, with a launch release of a full armies worth of models that could be used to represent the various feuding Civil War factions, while they slowly rolled out additional factions over time.

A new hero/unit per existing WHFB faction just sounds kind of tedious tbh.

I think I expressed when they were peddling those Kislev concepts my suspictions that zero work had been done for TOW at the time and they were just stalling with assets created for Total War

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I've been enthusiastic and even eager for ToW up until now, but some of this stuff has really started to sway me in the other direction.

No starter set just seems baffling. What was the last game GW released that didn't have a starter set of some kind? It's even more absurd when part of the reason WHFB was ended was because it wasn't easy to get into. Several armies being playable but seemingly not getting anything beyond that also feels bad.

It already feels like they don't know what they're really doing and are just making it all up as they go, with little thought. It comes across as bringing it back only to take it in a direction that'll result in it being discarded again.

Again, I think they're really doing a two phase release. It's taking a long time for them to get TOW out the door as a product, COVID no doubt screwed up the timeline and folks are rightfully getting impatient. Their doing phase 1 release of basically preexisting content and new rules to get the game back into people's hands and on their tables so as to not squander the hype any more than they already have while they continue working on "phase 2" which was their originally planned product launch (three emperors narrative stuff, launch box of two rival empire armies. etc).

There's absolutely no evidence of that, though. Nowhere has something like a "two rival empire armies" launch box been suggested, either before or now.

They said during the panel/q&a that the age of three emperors content would be coming later, well after the launch of the game and Bretonnia/Tomb Kings, etc, and that the Three Emperors stuff will be the main avenue of focus through which the games future would be developed, so that's pretty clearly evidence that it's a two-step product launch if first they are launching the game with free online rules for existibg kideld, etc and then later releasing new stuff. If they are going too have a big launch box like Horus Heresy, it's probably not going to be a box filled with old outdated kits, so that three emperors stuff is the likely candidate, and since they said three emperors won't be the initial release of the game.... do the math.

Well sorry for not magically knowing about something that wasn't streamed, wasn't included in summaries that i've seen, and hasn't been mentioned in this thread before you randomly bought it up in a way that seemed to just be a theory without you including anything to directly support it, I guess.

I hope they take away some feedback from this bs show and do seminars in the future that actually cover some stuff... the whole thing had this weird quarter-assed feeling about it, with the uninspired presenters giving off their best "I'd rather be down at the pub" impression, basically meaningless slides, tight lids on anything but background art and other 'unstealable' stuff like that, they even weirder no-show LOTR 'preview' and so on... all that stuff could easily have been condensed in a two-day event, and would probably have been received better for it. They still seem afraid of giving out information that they're not absolutely forced to reveal, contrary to the rest of the industry. The only unambiguously positive development among all this 3/5 star stuff is that they now do roadmaps for everything, that's more reassuring than getting a resin miniature of spanker Grabprick every quarter and then 10 weeks of total radio silence...

I find it odd that in 3 years, a multimillion pound company still hasn't managed to release a game they announced 3 years ago. A game that it has written 8 times already. It should be perfect by now.

Kickstarter companies manage more than a few maps and a few figures in the time GW have had, on a fraction of the money GW have.

It's just usual GW skittishness of actually giving out information for anything that isn't 1-2 months away.

 Paymaster Games wrote:
I agree with Blackfang. There are 16 armies for WHFB, It is really unreasonable to expect a brand-new plastic kit for every unit in every army.

I think initially re-doing two factions and injecting actual new players into the ecosystem via fresh plastic crack would have worked better than this nosebleed drip of content they're planning, but GW clearly disagrees.

Ahahahaha oh boy, all the whinging and griping and doomsaying online is exactly what I expected with any TOW news. It really is like 2010 again!

And to add to that, I too am disappointed we only got to see two things and news about what material types minis will be released in.

Its all totally ridiculous.

Sounds an awful lot like the original announcement was made by someone who was on their last day and wanted to mess with the company!

I'm still treating this as nothing more than a chance to pick up some of the Tomb King kits I'm missing and nothing more. They bumbled through the presentation, kept the Q&A stuff offline (which had more info than the actual presentation, and is being fed back to the general fandom in the form of Chinese whispers on the forums. Can't wait for the youtubers to start embellishing more details from tomorrow! ) then backtracked on the no starter set news on twitter (ridiculous backtracking at that!)

It really seems like they either a- never intended this to become a project in the first place or b-lost key members of staff that were working on it and had to pivot the entire project. (Yes, covid delayed a lot of stuff. But if its as simple as a production delay why not just be honest about it?)

What ever happened to idea that we would see things like Cathay and Kislev, after all those total war/old world articles they put up originally? Why has it suddenly become a release of nothing but old miniatures (and a couple of resin kits which look like they were cooked up by a 3D artist for a quick patreon grab) and speculation that the empire civil war stuff will come later on. Why are they saying they are focusing on just armies that were active in the 'old world' region, but then also saying that all 8th Ed armies will be supported and then the lizardmen are getting new sculpts in the Q&A?

None of this makes any sense. Any enthusiasm I had for this project is completely gone from today's presentation. The old world should be the easiest sell in the world to 'existing' WFB players. Instead we get this mess.

 Mallo wrote:

What ever happened to idea that we would see things like Cathay and Kislev, after all those total war/old world articles they put up originally? Why has it suddenly become a release of nothing but old miniatures (and a couple of resin kits which look like they were cooked up by a 3D artist for a quick patreon grab) and speculation that the empire civil war stuff will come later on. Why are they saying they are focusing on just armies that were active in the 'old world' region, but then also saying that all 8th Ed armies will be supported and then the lizardmen are getting new sculpts in the Q&A?

It really does seem odd that some of the first big things we saw were Kislev and it was talked about for a while, we were told that Kislev and Cathay were designed for TOW and they even made rules, only to now say "Oh, actually that's a very long way away".

So in order to hype up this project, they showed something that isn't relevant to the actual launch / core of it.

 RustyNumber wrote:
Ahahahaha oh boy, all the whinging and griping and doomsaying online is exactly what I expected with any TOW news. It really is like 2010 again!

And to add to that, I too am disappointed we only got to see two things and news about what material types minis will be released in.

I can't tell what parts of this post are real. 2010 did not herald a great edition of the game....

Mainly just the fact forum based endless complaining/debating-minutiae is quite retro these days and makes me feel both old and nostalgic 😂

Never been enthusiastic for this project because of the lead dev being... just the worst. So it's nice not to feel disappointed.

But MAN would I be disappointed if I'd been waiting years for this.

Disappointed but that’s life. Actual models being previewed was somewhere between my lowest and highest expectations.

 Mallo wrote:
Its all totally ridiculous.

Sounds an awful lot like the original announcement was made by someone who was on their last day and wanted to mess with the company!

I'm still treating this as nothing more than a chance to pick up some of the Tomb King kits I'm missing and nothing more. They bumbled through the presentation, kept the Q&A stuff offline (which had more info than the actual presentation, and is being fed back to the general fandom in the form of Chinese whispers on the forums. Can't wait for the youtubers to start embellishing more details from tomorrow! ) then backtracked on the no starter set news on twitter (ridiculous backtracking at that!)

It really seems like they either a- never intended this to become a project in the first place or b-lost key members of staff that were working on it and had to pivot the entire project. (Yes, covid delayed a lot of stuff. But if its as simple as a production delay why not just be honest about it?)

What ever happened to idea that we would see things like Cathay and Kislev, after all those total war/old world articles they put up originally? Why has it suddenly become a release of nothing but old miniatures (and a couple of resin kits which look like they were cooked up by a 3D artist for a quick patreon grab) and speculation that the empire civil war stuff will come later on. Why are they saying they are focusing on just armies that were active in the 'old world' region, but then also saying that all 8th Ed armies will be supported and then the lizardmen are getting new sculpts in the Q&A?

None of this makes any sense. Any enthusiasm I had for this project is completely gone from today's presentation. The old world should be the easiest sell in the world to 'existing' WFB players. Instead we get this mess.

If I remember right, CA clarified that the cathay/kislev rulebooks that GW wrote were just so the devs had a baseline to go off of. The books weren't written for the TOW line. That's not to say they won't be part of TOW, but a big part of their hype got dashed without much fanfare and anything in the game isn't indicative of what would be on the tabletop for TOW.

I have to ask what some of you what you were expecting?

I was very happy with the preview. it showed us quite a bit of information that we did not know before. Let's look at the info we had before this preview -

- Take place during the Three Emperors Period
- There are maps of the Old World, Cathey, and the Land of the Dead
- There is concept art for the Empire, Greenskins, Tomb Kings, Bretonnia and Kislev
- Base Sizes are being upped, although we do not know how big yet
- Some old Kits and models are returning (as expected based on previous art)

This is what we have learn from this preview -

- every army will be a mix of new and old model kits
- armies will be a mix of Resin and Plastic (I believe that Metal was brought up i do not remember where)
- 11 of the 16 armies will be getting army lists at launch (limited to the Army books of 8th edition)
- Tomb Kings and Bretonnia Will be the first two armies (This was expected)

Based on this we do not know enough to judge it up or down at this point.

So do all those rumours about getting a starter box launch just before Xmas this year seem a bit on the nose now?

Also was it Valrak who started that, or just repeated it?

lost_lilliputian wrote:
So do all those rumours about getting a starter box launch just before Xmas this year seem a bit on the nose now?

I am not sure at this point. I read recently that GW is looking at balancing out the Combat Patrol/ Boarding Party boxes to make them more playable out of the gate. It is likely too early to get a balanced a kit like that for the Old World. Chances are some of those lists have not even been written yet much less play tested. We would likely see army boxes for the Tomb Kings and Bretonnia this Christmas, if i had to put money on it.

Another option would be an Empire civil war box with two empire forces made up of common state troops and a couple of heroes. The idea would be that you could have two small empire armies or one large empire army.

^Hmm Army Boxes would be a good thing at least. Interesting to see how they do that, as in only plastic kits or if they include resin or metal in there too.

I think in the past some Bretonnian knights included metal heads for the horses too with detailed icons/grails etc.

 RustyNumber wrote:
Ahahahaha oh boy, all the whinging and griping and doomsaying online is exactly what I expected with any TOW news. It really is like 2010 again!

And to add to that, I too am disappointed we only got to see two things and news about what material types minis will be released in.

People have been quite positive towards TOW, but what do you think should be the reaction after the Warhammer Fest announcement of two drawings and a Tomb King hero? Its clear they have no game.

 triplegrim wrote:

 RustyNumber wrote:
Ahahahaha oh boy, all the whinging and griping and doomsaying online is exactly what I expected with any TOW news. It really is like 2010 again!

And to add to that, I too am disappointed we only got to see two things and news about what material types minis will be released in.

People have been quite positive towards TOW, but what do you think should be the reaction after the Warhammer Fest announcement of two drawings and a Tomb King hero? Its clear they have no game.

Ah, but you see they DO have a game!

That game is uh... 8th edition warhammer fantasy, apparently. Which is I think not what people wanted or expected.

I'm disappointed because we have no idea when this game is coming out...we have an idea of base size, how the game will be supported, etc but no idea of when it will launch. Ideally within the next year but from what they've teased so far this game could still be 2-3 years out. For a game that's already been in development for at least 3 maybe 4 years, that's quite a long development cycle. My hope is they are trying to stick the landing with it and not just stringing us along for IP reasons like conspiracy theorists suggest.

It is way to soon for the 8th edition comparison. The designers are likely young and were likely told to start with the models of 8th edition. IE the easiest models for them to put on the shelves with out much effort.

Once again this is way to soon to start shooting this down. Yes it is starting to take shape, but as of now we have no idea what that shape is yet.