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 Overread wrote:
Heck living siege engine towers were right in one of the Gotrek and Felix books on an assault on the Kislev capital (or if not capital a major city - I forget its name)

Gotrek and Felix novels are the perfect example of the weird mix of high and low fantasy the setting was. Everyday human warrior poet running around with a Dwarf Slayer that's essentially a Living Ancestor fated to a very specific doom by the Ancestors working as sewer jacks and tavern bouncers to be able to keep in booze who associate with a wizard of a secret order and a vampire and end up going on a trip to a magic hell dimension in an airship(complete with a bay for gyrocopters), multiple times near single handedly fight off a Chaos invasion, tussle with a demon made up of possessed cannons, have an adventure with Teclis through the Passages of the Old Ones containing Bubble Dimensions, and more.

It's not quite Flanderization, but a related cousin. Novels and RPG books go pretty top shelf in terms of pushing the boundaries and having elements be too wacky or OP, like warpstone originally, and people who get it, people who have the talent necessary to write for these properties, get it. They understand that subtlety, and the back and forth dance, and realize one flying ship (or two or three) isn't setting defining. That's not the point.

But common fans and amateur writers don't understand what's going on, that airship goes sailing smooth over their heads, and then by the time it gets to be a video game, decades removed from when it was really being worked on by talented people, you get some real laughers. Some people love that new stuff though.

Gotrek and Felix is a good example of how the game changed over time

the very first short stories came up during a time were 40k and Fantasy were still linked and Chaos Warriors had access to laser weapons

so a lot of what was going on in the novels that came out during 3rd-5th Edition got retconned/changed later on, specially regarding the nature of Chaos

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Heck living siege engine towers were right in one of the Gotrek and Felix books on an assault on the Kislev capital (or if not capital a major city - I forget its name)

Gotrek and Felix novels are the perfect example of the weird mix of high and low fantasy the setting was. Everyday human warrior poet running around with a Dwarf Slayer that's essentially a Living Ancestor fated to a very specific doom by the Ancestors working as sewer jacks and tavern bouncers to be able to keep in booze who associate with a wizard of a secret order and a vampire and end up going on a trip to a magic hell dimension in an airship(complete with a bay for gyrocopters), multiple times near single handedly fight off a Chaos invasion, tussle with a demon made up of possessed cannons, have an adventure with Teclis through the Passages of the Old Ones containing Bubble Dimensions, and more.

Honestly I think they are the perfect series to get introduced to the game and setting. It's a little shame that Gotrek isn't quite as "settled" in AoS (keeps starting grand ideas to reunite the dwarves every book and gives up by the end --- also a certain character is missing in the latest book!)

And yes they do blend that high and low fantasy element so well! One book they hold off armies the next its a challenge just dealing with a very local ghoul problem or raiders. It's not like a lot of modern material where characters are almost like RPG characters and each adventure they "level up" so that eventually small things are so far beneath them they never happen again.

I was going to maybe pick up those Prince Ulther dwarves but like hell am I paying 31.50 for 5 models.

 Olthannon wrote:
I was going to maybe pick up those Prince Ulther dwarves but like hell am I paying 31.50 for 5 models.

At just over $10/model for metal/plastic GW hybrids, they'd be almost reasonable... if they weren't Dwarves...

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:
I was going to maybe pick up those Prince Ulther dwarves but like hell am I paying 31.50 for 5 models.

At just over $10/model for metal/plastic GW hybrids, they'd be almost reasonable... if they weren't Dwarves...

Yeah the models themselves are small, but the price for 5 models isn't something that new for GW. Here in CAD it's 63$ for 5, while I can turn around and see 5 Sister of Silence for 70$ (for a pretty cheap in pts, chaff-like units). They are bigger models with more option and all sure, but white metal itself isn't cheap like plastic either. I'm sure there's other similar example around. Only thing is for the dwarfs you'd want/need a few packs to have something playable for the game (I say minimum of 2 packs of troops and the command), that's a big asking price for a single unit!

 Dysartes wrote:

 YodhrinsForge wrote:

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 Garfield666 wrote:
Didn't they show some Kislev characters ages ago when first promoting ToW? What happened to that faction? Binned for the Brets?

Further down the line, no doubt as a launch faction for when they make a second edition of ToW, once all the old plastics are done in a few years.

I fervently hope, then, that their mentions of expanding their plans mean bringing back the other legacy armies, because the more time I can live my life without risking running into the TWWH version of Kislev on the table the happier I'll be when the reaper finally calls.

Having not played TW:W myself, what's wrong with how Kislev is depicted in there?

Tabletop Kislev was written in 6th when the formula for WHFB factions was still being devised by history nerds rather than ascended fanboys, so it was a collection of various slavic and russian influenced infantry and cavalry units that were basically slightly more flamboyant versions of the real ones that inspired them. They had magic in the form of Ice Witches and one special character who rode a bear which was supposed to illustrate that he was just that badass.

TWWH Kislev is the same hyper-Flanderization that's been gathering steam in earnest since 8th edition; all-female elite units wielding glowing magical ice-encrusted weaponry(creatively named the Ice Guard), whole regiments of monstrous bear riding cavalry, streltsi go from having handguns and halberds that double as gun rests like the IRL version to having gun-axes like that meme vampire hunting movie, sled-chariots pulled by bears that ride on a cusion of magical ice including an artillery version that shoots a siege bombard like they're doing drivebys, and yes gigantic elemental ice-bear spirits. It has all the subtlety and creativity of a brick to the face.

Cathay is even more ridiculously OTT, but at least they didn't have an actual complete and defined version outlined in multiple novels and with its own army list for people to be attached to already.

I'm not sure Flanderization is the right term - but "everything is magic all the time" is I think a legitimate comment. 8th's choices seemed to clearly be leading up to Age of Sigmar. Maybe they felt they'd filled in those gaps - but you see more monsters as centre pieces, monstrous cavalry and/or all weapons are somehow magical.

I suspect though the ship has probably sailed. Its got to be hard to sell various kits of basic humans when Empire and Brets are standing right there. Unless you really doubled down on style differences.

 YodhrinsForge wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 YodhrinsForge wrote:

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 Garfield666 wrote:
Didn't they show some Kislev characters ages ago when first promoting ToW? What happened to that faction? Binned for the Brets?

Further down the line, no doubt as a launch faction for when they make a second edition of ToW, once all the old plastics are done in a few years.

I fervently hope, then, that their mentions of expanding their plans mean bringing back the other legacy armies, because the more time I can live my life without risking running into the TWWH version of Kislev on the table the happier I'll be when the reaper finally calls.

Having not played TW:W myself, what's wrong with how Kislev is depicted in there?

TWWH Kislev is the same hyper-Flanderization that's been gathering steam in earnest since 8th edition; all-female elite units wielding glowing magical ice-encrusted weaponry(creatively named the Ice Guard), whole regiments of monstrous bear riding cavalry, streltsi go from having handguns and halberds that double as gun rests like the IRL version to having gun-axes like that meme vampire hunting movie, sled-chariots pulled by bears that ride on a cusion of magical ice including an artillery version that shoots a siege bombard like they're doing drivebys, and yes gigantic elemental ice-bear spirits. It has all the subtlety and creativity of a brick to the face.

The thing is, having actually played the game, those over-the-top units are elites who cost more. You want to take Kossars and Armoured Kossars or Jade Warriors/Peasants because those are the stolid line of battle types.

 RaptorusRex wrote:

 YodhrinsForge wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 YodhrinsForge wrote:

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 Garfield666 wrote:
Didn't they show some Kislev characters ages ago when first promoting ToW? What happened to that faction? Binned for the Brets?

Further down the line, no doubt as a launch faction for when they make a second edition of ToW, once all the old plastics are done in a few years.

I fervently hope, then, that their mentions of expanding their plans mean bringing back the other legacy armies, because the more time I can live my life without risking running into the TWWH version of Kislev on the table the happier I'll be when the reaper finally calls.

Having not played TW:W myself, what's wrong with how Kislev is depicted in there?

TWWH Kislev is the same hyper-Flanderization that's been gathering steam in earnest since 8th edition; all-female elite units wielding glowing magical ice-encrusted weaponry(creatively named the Ice Guard), whole regiments of monstrous bear riding cavalry, streltsi go from having handguns and halberds that double as gun rests like the IRL version to having gun-axes like that meme vampire hunting movie, sled-chariots pulled by bears that ride on a cusion of magical ice including an artillery version that shoots a siege bombard like they're doing drivebys, and yes gigantic elemental ice-bear spirits. It has all the subtlety and creativity of a brick to the face.

The thing is, having actually played the game, those over-the-top units are elites who cost more. You want to take Kossars and Armoured Kossars or Jade Warriors/Peasants because those are the stolid line of battle types.

Putting aside that they are certainly more frequent now than when they didn't exist, I'm not concerned with TWWH beyond it being the source of the design. I just don't want to have to see it on the table across from me.

Dragons, Wizards, Helicopters, Skeletons, Daemons, Trolls, Ogres - Ok

People riding Bears - Unacceptable

Honestly the only Kisleve unit that I think is missplaced in Warhammer TW is the sledge and that's only because it feels out of place on any map that isn't a snowy tundra.

Otherwise units of all women - heck Old World had the Amazonian army. Sure it sadly never really got developed outside of I think a Bloodbowl team or Mordhiem band? But it was 100% there in lore.

New Bretonnia lore has also dabbled in women knights in the Boarder Princes region and honestly it feels fitting.
Heck the new Bretonnia novel feels much more like it focused on the "horsemaster" angle than the "abuse the serfs". Which is the polar opposite of the classic books which focus much more on abusing serfs whilst he horses are hardly mentioned.

Two very different takes on the same faction and yet both are very valid; just different approaches.

 Gert wrote:
Dragons, Wizards, Helicopters, Skeletons, Daemons, Trolls, Ogres - Ok

People riding Bears - Unacceptable

Lol! Let me try:

Evil people riding advanced mechanical demon bulls, Lizards riding Lizards with lasers, Rats with machineguns and flamethrowers, - Ok

A small group of warrior-sorceresses using Ice-magic weapons - Unacceptable

Much of the appeal of the old stuff is that it was grounded in reality. Human armies at least were very much inspired by real counterparts, with fantastical elements used sparsely. They enhanced the feeling and were special, not the norm.
The newer - anything goes, who cares? approach is what is putting many people off, me included.

Its like with Lovecraft - the fascination lies in the unknown, the very rare occurence of something special. If you are fistfighting Nayarlathotep on a daily basis, that isn't interresting anymore...

That being said, to each their own, it all comes down to taste.

In a well written rulesset, you can pick and choose what units to use or omit and still have a chance of winning. Noone forces you to use Icewitches, Griffinriders or Pegasus knights if you find them unacceptable. Only if these units are such badly balanced gamechangers that you *must* take them, there is an issue. So, it's up to GW to do their job.

 Gert wrote:
Dragons, Wizards, Helicopters, Skeletons, Daemons, Trolls, Ogres - Ok

People riding Bears - Unacceptable

LOL, far be it for me to argue against such quality snark but...

My feeling is that the humans in the Old War were always the POV race, a human army might have one griffon or pegasus or steam tank while all the outsider races could have as much magical nonsense as you choose. The humans had a historical grounding and texture that (say) Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms never had.

So giving the humans whole units of pegasus riders or dudes with ice swords or steam horses turns a (semi) grounded, historical faction into another fantasy cliche mishmash.

In the end it's a minor issue, but there it is.

 Gert wrote:
Has anyone actually looked at the Kislev roster for TW:WH3? Cos there's still very normal basic troops such as Warriors, Kossars, Horse Archers and Hussars while Bear Riders and Ice Guard are more similar to the likes of Greatswords and Demigryphs.

The Ice Guard are just interesting designs compared to what is essentially Bretonnian peasants but Eastern European.

Are you suggesting that greatswords are not a historically-inspired, grounded unit? They are pretty much copies of real landsknecht-type soldiers. These days, even the flamberge blades are thought to be actual (if rare) combat weapons and not just ceremonial.

Well, Greatswords are a fictional unit in Warhammer as the Landsknecht type soldiers would not have been able to fight in close formation or keep ranks and would rather be skirmish unit or skirmish detachment adding impact hits on the charger rather than what they are in the game

Almost all units in the game are fictional in that regard (also the use of shields or armour in general) and the difference is simply how they are connected with modern pop culture

A dragon rider is seen as something typical fantasy, a bear rider is more related to Putin memes.
Making a difference in style and lists for the western European factions but throwing all of eastern Europe into one does not help either

 kodos wrote:
Well, Greatswords are a fictional unit in Warhammer as the Landsknecht type soldiers would not have been able to fight in close formation or keep ranks and would rather be skirmish unit or skirmish detachment adding impact hits on the charger rather than what they are in the game

Almost all units in the game are fictional in that regard (also the use of shields or armour in general) and the difference is simply how they are connected with modern pop culture

A dragon rider is seen as something typical fantasy, a bear rider is more related to Putin memes.
Making a difference in style and lists for the western European factions but throwing all of eastern Europe into one does not help either

Without going into the nuances of Renaissance warfare and how well it is proxied by the WFB ranked units system (which would definitely warrant its own thread), the conversation is more about aesthetics and feel. Greatswords are a very low fantasy, grounded unit.

Warhammer Fantasy's world has long mixed the grounded and more fantastical elements, with WHFB itself arguably a bit in the middle ground of the various extremes - between the grittiness of WFRP and the more extensively magical and monstrous world seen in, say, Man O' War.

Personally, I prefer both the overall setting, and Kislev specifically, when magic and monsters are rare. Thematically, Kislev feels far more interesting when it tries to stand against the enormous forces of Chaos with arrows, axes and courage than if it appears to have fantastical creatures and magical abilities equal to those of their terrifying foes. Often, the human factions in fantasy worlds are meant to represent the more grounded reality to which we can relate, surrounded, infiltrated and undermined by fantastical forces. A Winged Lancer charging a hulking Warrior of Chaos is, to me, far more epic than if he had been riding a massive war bear and had a magical ice-tipped lance. Which is not to say I have anything against bear-mounted figures, but they are rather more interesting when rare.

In Total War, bears are not only a character mount (to several melee, wizard and support classes), but also available as mounts for a regiment of renown, as a regular monstrous cavalry unit, pulling both light and heavy chariots, pulling artillery, as feral stand-alone troops, and a massive elemental monster. Now, when I think if Kislev culturally, I do think of bears. But when I used to think of them militarily, the first animal to come to mind is the horse. Light ranged cavalry, the famed winged lancers, the even more famous Gryphon Legion. If they have some drawn cart (like their War Wagons in Warmaster) or artillery, I would expect it to be pulled by horses. (Who in their right mind would even design one pulled by bears and call it a "light" chariot?!).

Of course, the abundance of semi-fantastical bear-use and equally common magic (the war sleds slide around on magical ice, instead of just sliding around with skis, or having wheels on other terrain) fits well in the trend culminating in WHFB 8th and AoS. With AoS's lore having the heavy magical influence WHFB was moving towards, I hope WHFB can stay/move in the other direction and be the more grounded setting. And with Kislev delayed compared to earlier indications, I hope their potential eventual release will see some modifications to the Total War line-up, staying more within the boundaries seen in Mordheim, Warmaster, WHFB 6th ed and the 5th ed Citadel Journal, with bears, yes, and ice magic, sure, but in moderation.

 YodhrinsForge wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 YodhrinsForge wrote:

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 Garfield666 wrote:
Didn't they show some Kislev characters ages ago when first promoting ToW? What happened to that faction? Binned for the Brets?

Further down the line, no doubt as a launch faction for when they make a second edition of ToW, once all the old plastics are done in a few years.

I fervently hope, then, that their mentions of expanding their plans mean bringing back the other legacy armies, because the more time I can live my life without risking running into the TWWH version of Kislev on the table the happier I'll be when the reaper finally calls.

Having not played TW:W myself, what's wrong with how Kislev is depicted in there?

Tabletop Kislev was written in 6th when the formula for WHFB factions was still being devised by history nerds rather than ascended fanboys, so it was a collection of various slavic and russian influenced infantry and cavalry units that were basically slightly more flamboyant versions of the real ones that inspired them. They had magic in the form of Ice Witches and one special character who rode a bear which was supposed to illustrate that he was just that badass.

TWWH Kislev is the same hyper-Flanderization that's been gathering steam in earnest since 8th edition; all-female elite units wielding glowing magical ice-encrusted weaponry(creatively named the Ice Guard), whole regiments of monstrous bear riding cavalry, streltsi go from having handguns and halberds that double as gun rests like the IRL version to having gun-axes like that meme vampire hunting movie, sled-chariots pulled by bears that ride on a cusion of magical ice including an artillery version that shoots a siege bombard like they're doing drivebys, and yes gigantic elemental ice-bear spirits. It has all the subtlety and creativity of a brick to the face.

Cathay is even more ridiculously OTT, but at least they didn't have an actual complete and defined version outlined in multiple novels and with its own army list for people to be attached to already.

It only appears that way if you choose to completely ignore everything they had that shows otherwise like the RPG books and how they were in the novels, and even the fantastical elements they did have in the tabletop stuff. None of the things TWW3 and TOW have now are something completely out of nowhere.

Even during the early mentions of Kislev in 4th edition (which was only a few paragraphs of lore and some rules) had mentions of magic ice creatures, bears used as mounts, and frost warrior witches.

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:

Personally, I prefer both the overall setting, and Kislev specifically, when magic and monsters are rare. Thematically, Kislev feels far more interesting when it tries to stand against the enormous forces of Chaos with arrows, axes and courage than if it appears to have fantastical creatures and magical abilities equal to those of their terrifying foes.

This post perfectly represents my own opinions on the matter and I don't think I could phrase it better.
My vision of Kislev is based on their portrayal in Warmaster and Realm of the Ice Queen, which still comes across as fantastical but nowhere near to their portrayal in TWW3. Kossars, Lancers and Horse Archers should be the core. Sleds, Royal guards and bear cavalry are alright but could do with a little reigning in. Snow Leopards and Elemental Bears are way past the point of reasonable to me.

A war sled pulled on wooden skis by horses is a far better image than one on enchanted ice by bears, in my eyes. Save the magic for the Ice Court and the bears for Ursun, its still plenty of whimsy to fit the setting without encroaching on Elf-levels of fantasy.

 Haighus wrote:

 kodos wrote:
Well, Greatswords are a fictional unit in Warhammer as the Landsknecht type soldiers would not have been able to fight in close formation or keep ranks and would rather be skirmish unit or skirmish detachment adding impact hits on the charger rather than what they are in the game

Almost all units in the game are fictional in that regard (also the use of shields or armour in general) and the difference is simply how they are connected with modern pop culture

A dragon rider is seen as something typical fantasy, a bear rider is more related to Putin memes.
Making a difference in style and lists for the western European factions but throwing all of eastern Europe into one does not help either

Without going into the nuances of Renaissance warfare and how well it is proxied by the WFB ranked units system (which would definitely warrant its own thread), the conversation is more about aesthetics and feel. Greatswords are a very low fantasy, grounded unit.

that is one of the points, it does not feel very grounded to me because I have something different in mind when thinking about Greatswords (and given that the current version of the unit is the old Knights on Foot and Greatswords merged together) but it is fantasy and not realistic so I don't mind it

so Kislev feeling off or not "grounded" enough comes from the expectations of people connected to the real life blue-print and/or how it was written in the past army books they know
And if several different cultures, time periods, and types of warfare are thrown together into a single faction, people will be angry depending on what part they expected to dominate (if one thought Kislev being models after Poland and connects bear riders with Russia of course they be upset if those are there, someone who don't see a difference there is not)

someone who played Kislev during the original Storm of Chaos is looking different on that army as someone who just read the novels or someone who knows it only from TWWH

Mozzamanx wrote:

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:

Personally, I prefer both the overall setting, and Kislev specifically, when magic and monsters are rare. Thematically, Kislev feels far more interesting when it tries to stand against the enormous forces of Chaos with arrows, axes and courage than if it appears to have fantastical creatures and magical abilities equal to those of their terrifying foes.

This post perfectly represents my own opinions on the matter and I don't think I could phrase it better.
My vision of Kislev is based on their portrayal in Warmaster and Realm of the Ice Queen, which still comes across as fantastical but nowhere near to their portrayal in TWW3. Kossars, Lancers and Horse Archers should be the core. Sleds, Royal guards and bear cavalry are alright but could do with a little reigning in. Snow Leopards and Elemental Bears are way past the point of reasonable to me.

A war sled pulled on wooden skis by horses is a far better image than one on enchanted ice by bears, in my eyes. Save the magic for the Ice Court and the bears for Ursun, its still plenty of whimsy to fit the setting without encroaching on Elf-levels of fantasy.

The problem seems to be people look at one particular source of Kislev lore and then based on just that go "This is how they are", completely ignoring or unaware of all the other things that show them as more in line with how TWW3 and TOW has them, because they're all elements that were mentioned or have a basis in their existing lore. The snow leopards were mentioned in the novel Ursun's Teeth back in 2004, and summoning magical ice creations imbued with spirits was in the same series too, and the spirit of the land of kislev was said to be a bear in some of their lore.

 Garfield666 wrote:
Much of the appeal of the old stuff is that it was grounded in reality.

Do you meet many ratmen and lizardmen knights riding pegasi and strampunk engineers riding mechanical horses leading a bunch of steam powered land Ironclad into battle where you're from?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Mozzamanx wrote:

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:

Personally, I prefer both the overall setting, and Kislev specifically, when magic and monsters are rare. Thematically, Kislev feels far more interesting when it tries to stand against the enormous forces of Chaos with arrows, axes and courage than if it appears to have fantastical creatures and magical abilities equal to those of their terrifying foes.

This post perfectly represents my own opinions on the matter and I don't think I could phrase it better.
My vision of Kislev is based on their portrayal in Warmaster and Realm of the Ice Queen, which still comes across as fantastical but nowhere near to their portrayal in TWW3. Kossars, Lancers and Horse Archers should be the core. Sleds, Royal guards and bear cavalry are alright but could do with a little reigning in. Snow Leopards and Elemental Bears are way past the point of reasonable to me.

A war sled pulled on wooden skis by horses is a far better image than one on enchanted ice by bears, in my eyes. Save the magic for the Ice Court and the bears for Ursun, its still plenty of whimsy to fit the setting without encroaching on Elf-levels of fantasy.

The problem seems to be people look at one particular source of Kislev lore and then based on just that go "This is how they are", completely ignoring or unaware of all the other things that show them as more in line with how TWW3 and TOW has them, because they're all elements that were mentioned or have a basis in their existing lore. The snow leopards were mentioned in the novel Ursun's Teeth back in 2004, and summoning magical ice creations imbued with spirits was in the same series too, and the spirit of the land of kislev was said to be a bear in some of their lore.

Any sensible person reading this should go "well I guess my perspective was wrong or at least based on false pretenses", sadly it's the internet and that won't happen.

The craziest thing is people are arguing that a faction best known for holding back (and occasionally being overrun and screwed by) waves of otherworldly horrors, daemons, warpspawnrd monstrosities, etc. needs to be "grounded".

So, you know how the Forces of Fantasy FAQ has an errata for the Axe of Dargo - I figured, fair enough they missed something, maybe it was printed as S-2 or something silly like that but I went and looked and my copy at least has the correct strength value already.
So, did anyone receive a copy with the wrong value, and what was it?

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
The problem seems to be people look at one particular source of Kislev lore and then based on just that go "This is how they are", completely ignoring or unaware of all the other things that show them as more in line with how TWW3 and TOW has them, because they're all elements that were mentioned or have a basis in their existing lore. The snow leopards were mentioned in the novel Ursun's Teeth back in 2004, and summoning magical ice creations imbued with spirits was in the same series too, and the spirit of the land of kislev was said to be a bear in some of their lore.

It also implies that these elements are common place, when the reality is said elements (for all factions) are rare or uncommon, usually reserved for when a battle or campaign requires them. I doubt you'd find bear cavalry involved in a skirmish, for example, unless they happened to be nearby or already present at a location.

Personally, I've always liked the way 6th/7th, and to a lesser extent 8th, weave the mundane and fantastical together. Of course, someone who's only read the 6th Edition supplement is going to have a different view on Kislev than someone who started with TW:W3, with many not being aware of WFRP or the novels that do feature Kislev.

Fundamentally the core of Kislev armies is still the mundane, not the fantastical. If there's a place where the fantastical (bear cavalry, palace guard, bear elementals, etc) forms the core, it'll be in an Arcane journal. Besides, if you dislike them you don't need to have them in your army.

Sathrut wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
The problem seems to be people look at one particular source of Kislev lore and then based on just that go "This is how they are", completely ignoring or unaware of all the other things that show them as more in line with how TWW3 and TOW has them, because they're all elements that were mentioned or have a basis in their existing lore. The snow leopards were mentioned in the novel Ursun's Teeth back in 2004, and summoning magical ice creations imbued with spirits was in the same series too, and the spirit of the land of kislev was said to be a bear in some of their lore.

It also implies that these elements are common place, when the reality is said elements (for all factions) are rare or uncommon, usually reserved for when a battle or campaign requires them. I doubt you'd find bear cavalry involved in a skirmish, for example, unless they happened to be nearby or already present at a location.

TWW3 makes no claims as to how rare or common such things are, If you wanted you could have an Empire army of 20 steam tanks, despite 20 steam tanks not even existing. Both that game and TOW are armies consisting of things that exist as part of that faction and that's the only real criteria - that unit could show up because they are a thing somewhere for them, but its without any real consideration as to how likely or feasible that happening even is. Kislev having those more fantastical units is not an indication that they're all extremely commonplace and will show up all the time, more so just that they exist.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Do you meet many ratmen and lizardmen knights riding pegasi and strampunk engineers riding mechanical horses leading a bunch of steam powered land Ironclad into battle where you're from?

Sounds like London TBH...

When you take a lot of the fantasy models for Warhammer TW they can appear far more regular when given just a regular paintjob and where you don't have bloom and glow effects all around the weapons and such.



Honestly its amazing that Old World can have this conversation - that it managed to (mostly by situation and accident) be a low magic and high magic and epic magic setting all in one stonethrow.

That's honestly pretty amazing as an achievement.