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chaos0xomega wrote:
Can we stop talking about legacy factions?

You mean, the factions that helped build GW up into what it is today? I suppose, but that won't endear people who are fans of those legacy factions and want to see them eventually make it into TOW.

In TOW, easily 75% of my minis are... well, not UNuseable, but certainly getting power creeped out of play as non-legacy armies get updated. That makes the game even LESS fun, and therefore makes me less likely to continue engaging. So if your goal is to makle TOW more exclusive with a smaller player base and fewer people buying the minis, go for it.

I think it was prwtty clear from the getgo that what you just describrd was GWs intent in the first place.

 Vulcan wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Can we stop talking about legacy factions?

You mean, the factions that helped build GW up into what it is today? I suppose, but that won't endear people who are fans of those legacy factions and want to see them eventually make it into TOW.

In TOW, easily 75% of my minis are... well, not UNuseable, but certainly getting power creeped out of play as non-legacy armies get updated. That makes the game even LESS fun, and therefore makes me less likely to continue engaging. So if your goal is to makle TOW more exclusive with a smaller player base and fewer people buying the minis, go for it.

Power creep isn't the issue. The problem is they nerfed the legacy lists at least twice all while saying they wouldn't get any 'updates.'

So keep on believing their intent chaos. It's almost laughable to accept what GW says/writes at face value.

GW's aim has been clear from the beginning: they want the players of the legacy factions to play them in AOS.

That they put an emphasis on Bretonnia, now Cathay and in the future probably Kislev isn't surprising as those were some of the most popular factions in Total War.

They want both old players back and an influx of the Total War fans, I think.

As most legacy armies are playable in AOS (as a dark elf player I'm sad though) GW can have their cake and eat it too.

I keep being amazed by how upfront GW has been about the near future for legacy armies and people who keep being surprised and disgruntled about it.

Denial is a hell of a drug i guess.

To be fair it doesn't help when GW has armies like Dark Elves just kind of languishing for years with no real focus nor plan besides one campaign book that "sort of" returned an old army but then never touched on it again.

And then pulls Beastmen - an army which had AoS Battletome and model additions - and then pulls it 100% and puts it into Old World.



GW sends a confusing message and leaves hope/potential for other things to one-day-maybe-if-just-MAYBE happen

Heck some of us still cling to hope that Squats will return or that GW's many mentions of Exodites will one day come with an actual model.

Wait didn't one of those things already happen???





Also where the HECK is Codex ZOATS!

Yeah, Squats returned.

 Overread wrote:
To be fair it doesn't help when GW has armies like Dark Elves just kind of languishing for years with no real focus nor plan besides one campaign book that "sort of" returned an old army but then never touched on it again.

And then pulls Beastmen - an army which had AoS Battletome and model additions - and then pulls it 100% and puts it into Old World.



GW sends a confusing message and leaves hope/potential for other things to one-day-maybe-if-just-MAYBE happen

Heck some of us still cling to hope that Squats will return or that GW's many mentions of Exodites will one day come with an actual model.

Wait didn't one of those things already happen???





Also where the HECK is Codex ZOATS!

Good point!

Give me some Chaos Dwarfs already!

I'd settle for 'official' status in ToW and will consider them in AoS, depending!

I think they will only update legacy factions if they are to strong and win manny oficial toernaments. But will nerf them then.

 skeleton wrote:
I think they will only update legacy factions if they are to strong and win manny oficial toernaments. But will nerf them then.

Legacy factions are banned from official tournaments.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 skeleton wrote:
I think they will only update legacy factions if they are to strong and win manny oficial toernaments. But will nerf them then.

Legacy factions are banned from official tournaments.

Which GW don't even really run yet I tried to sign up for one at the Dallas US Open and it's the only game they don't have.

JWh85 wrote:

I keep being amazed by how upfront GW has been about the near future for legacy armies and people who keep being surprised and disgruntled about it.

I'm amazed by people who actually believe anything GW says via Warhammer Community, when it's been shown on a number of occasions that they will go back on their official position when there's commercial logic in doing so, or will outright tell lies when it suits them (like the old weird messaging around Cathay). It's like some people on this forum have no clue about corporate communications. GW will deny the legacy factions are ever coming back until the day before they announce that they (or at least one army) are coming back, it's standard business practice as it quiets down distracting debate. We may never see all the legacy factions back but I'd bet substantial money on some of them returning within the next 3-4 years if TOW continues being a success.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 skeleton wrote:
I think they will only update legacy factions if they are to strong and win manny oficial toernaments. But will nerf them then.

Legacy factions are banned from official tournaments.

A good reason to avoid official tourneys.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Denial is a hell of a drug i guess.

It sure is Rick James.

If someone jumps on here and posts 'can we stop talking about legacy factions,' guess what that makes me want to talk about regardless of whether or not I believe they're returning as supported factions.

 Londinium wrote:

JWh85 wrote:

I keep being amazed by how upfront GW has been about the near future for legacy armies and people who keep being surprised and disgruntled about it.

I'm amazed by people who actually believe anything GW says via Warhammer Community, when it's been shown on a number of occasions that they will go back on their official position when there's commercial logic in doing so, or will outright tell lies when it suits them (like the old weird messaging around Cathay). It's like some people on this forum have no clue about corporate communications. GW will deny the legacy factions are ever coming back until the day before they announce that they (or at least one army) are coming back, it's standard business practice as it quiets down distracting debate. We may never see all the legacy factions back but I'd bet substantial money on some of them returning within the next 3-4 years if TOW continues being a success.

I think its you who dont understand corporate communications, friend (for what its worth, my gf works in corporate comms and marketing, formerly doing so for GWs partners and competitors). The messaging around cathay and kislev was pretty clear, saying they were not going to be released in the forseeable future was a tacit acknowledgement that they would/could be released but there was no timeline on it (the reasons why are immaterial). At no point ever was it a denial of potential or rejection of possibility.

The messaging around Legacy factions has been altogether different, with direct statements that they would not be part of the games narrative going forward, were being released for old times sake and that players who wanted to participate in the story that wpuld be told through TOW should collect a core faction instead, that the legacy factions would not be updated or receive releases or support in the future, etc. I really dont know how they could make it any clearer as they made pretty clear denials and rejections with those statements. And while everyone loves to point out that they updated the legacy pdfs once, they did so with the mea culpa acknowledgement that the pdfs were not released as intended (with certain rumormongers stating that they actually released an older pre-final edit of the files by mistake) and they had to correct the errors.

Mchagen wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Denial is a hell of a drug i guess.

It sure is Rick James.

If someone jumps on here and posts 'can we stop talking about legacy factions,' guess what that makes me want to talk about regardless of whether or not I believe they're returning as supported factions.

I know, i got caught in that trap too. I just cant help myself. Im just tired of beating the dead horse on the topic. Its like charlie brown with a football.

First it was "Once they release all the core factions theyll do the legacy factions"

Now its "Once they release cathay theyll do the legacy factions"

Next its going to be (probably) "Once they do kislev theyll do legacy factions"

Eventually itll be "Once they release second edition theyll do legacy factions"

And so on and so forth. I dont know how long this has to go on for before people realize that GW is taking this in a different direction from what they may have wanted or expected, and that they should just enjoy the ride. If GW does legacy factions it likely wont be anytime soon, certainly not as soon as those talking legacy factions want it or expect it to be. Play the game they are selling you now and allow yourself to be surprised and delighted if and when the legacy factions show up, rather than beating this annoying loud drum and getting pissy that they are prioritizing other things and going in different directions.

I figured they would make Old World products for the legacy factions the second corporate felt there was another penny to squeeze out of it, but were otherwise out of ideas. These toy businesses are run by dolts, the reason they don't want The Old World and Age of Sigmar to mix is because someone high enough in the chain arbitrarily decided it would be so. Anyone pretending that their reasoning wasn't inscrutable is living in a fairy tale world without a grimdark aesthetic.

But everyone should also realize that decision is held by GW execs as lightly as a feather. It is, until another arbitrary decision made by someone who has no idea what they're doing comes along and replaces it. That could be tomorrow, or it could be in ten years from now, both are equally likely.

I've heard the opposite rumor from some content creators/playtesters, that the version of legacy factions released on launch was already a toned down version from what some of them had received. One specific example given was the raise dead spell which was I believe changed from 2d6 zombies to 2d3.

It's hard to confirm any of the changes since those playtesters were under nda and weren't able to discuss much about them.

Edit: correction it was D6+4 zombies, not 2d6. I found a reference in the comments section of this video (Mountain Miniatures) of some of the differences in the vampire legacy list Steve had compared to what was released to the public (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S0eP9MuuQY). I've not watched it so I don't know where he specifically mentioned the raise dead spell in the video.

I also see what you mean by 'older pre-final edit,' which could mean it was a (for instance) 1.1 version that was released instead of an intended 1.2, whereas the playtesters had 1.0. Though I think it's more likely that GW had no clue that certain aspects of the legacy factions would be as powerful as they turned out to be in the hands of the general player base, which knows how to play their game better than they do, and ended up nerfing them once more in order to reduce their strength and popularity.

Well, that people who play the game with all the rules available know it better than those who just know parts if it from reading isn't something new or surprising
That they cared enough to change things before it was released is

For the legacy armies in general, I am still have the impression that more armies are going to be moved to legacy as new ones coming along rather than expanding the game with new stuff for old armies

Bit late to the party, did we have this take yet?

Cathay looks fantastic, but it doesn't look like Warhammer to me.

 BertBert wrote:
Bit late to the party, did we have this take yet?

Cathay looks fantastic, but it doesn't look like Warhammer to me.

It is pretty gaudy and fantastical but fits fine with 8th edition's flying boats pulled by eagles and gak

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Londinium wrote:

JWh85 wrote:

I keep being amazed by how upfront GW has been about the near future for legacy armies and people who keep being surprised and disgruntled about it.

I'm amazed by people who actually believe anything GW says via Warhammer Community, when it's been shown on a number of occasions that they will go back on their official position when there's commercial logic in doing so, or will outright tell lies when it suits them (like the old weird messaging around Cathay). It's like some people on this forum have no clue about corporate communications. GW will deny the legacy factions are ever coming back until the day before they announce that they (or at least one army) are coming back, it's standard business practice as it quiets down distracting debate. We may never see all the legacy factions back but I'd bet substantial money on some of them returning within the next 3-4 years if TOW continues being a success.

I think its you who dont understand corporate communications, friend (for what its worth, my gf works in corporate comms and marketing, formerly doing so for GWs partners and competitors). The messaging around cathay and kislev was pretty clear, saying they were not going to be released in the forseeable future was a tacit acknowledgement that they would/could be released but there was no timeline on it (the reasons why are immaterial). At no point ever was it a denial of potential or rejection of possibility.

The messaging around Legacy factions has been altogether different, with direct statements that they would not be part of the games narrative going forward, were being released for old times sake and that players who wanted to participate in the story that wpuld be told through TOW should collect a core faction instead, that the legacy factions would not be updated or receive releases or support in the future, etc. I really dont know how they could make it any clearer as they made pretty clear denials and rejections with those statements. And while everyone loves to point out that they updated the legacy pdfs once, they did so with the mea culpa acknowledgement that the pdfs were not released as intended (with certain rumormongers stating that they actually released an older pre-final edit of the files by mistake) and they had to correct the errors.

Mchagen wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Denial is a hell of a drug i guess.

It sure is Rick James.

If someone jumps on here and posts 'can we stop talking about legacy factions,' guess what that makes me want to talk about regardless of whether or not I believe they're returning as supported factions.

I know, i got caught in that trap too. I just cant help myself. Im just tired of beating the dead horse on the topic. Its like charlie brown with a football.

First it was "Once they release all the core factions theyll do the legacy factions"

Now its "Once they release cathay theyll do the legacy factions"

Next its going to be (probably) "Once they do kislev theyll do legacy factions"

Eventually itll be "Once they release second edition theyll do legacy factions"

And so on and so forth. I dont know how long this has to go on for before people realize that GW is taking this in a different direction from what they may have wanted or expected, and that they should just enjoy the ride. If GW does legacy factions it likely wont be anytime soon, certainly not as soon as those talking legacy factions want it or expect it to be. Play the game they are selling you now and allow yourself to be surprised and delighted if and when the legacy factions show up, rather than beating this annoying loud drum and getting pissy that they are prioritizing other things and going in different directions.

Yeah, just like when they said WFB wasn't coming back at all.



Oh, wait...

 Just Tony wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Londinium wrote:

JWh85 wrote:

I keep being amazed by how upfront GW has been about the near future for legacy armies and people who keep being surprised and disgruntled about it.

I'm amazed by people who actually believe anything GW says via Warhammer Community, when it's been shown on a number of occasions that they will go back on their official position when there's commercial logic in doing so, or will outright tell lies when it suits them (like the old weird messaging around Cathay). It's like some people on this forum have no clue about corporate communications. GW will deny the legacy factions are ever coming back until the day before they announce that they (or at least one army) are coming back, it's standard business practice as it quiets down distracting debate. We may never see all the legacy factions back but I'd bet substantial money on some of them returning within the next 3-4 years if TOW continues being a success.

I think its you who dont understand corporate communications, friend (for what its worth, my gf works in corporate comms and marketing, formerly doing so for GWs partners and competitors). The messaging around cathay and kislev was pretty clear, saying they were not going to be released in the forseeable future was a tacit acknowledgement that they would/could be released but there was no timeline on it (the reasons why are immaterial). At no point ever was it a denial of potential or rejection of possibility.

The messaging around Legacy factions has been altogether different, with direct statements that they would not be part of the games narrative going forward, were being released for old times sake and that players who wanted to participate in the story that wpuld be told through TOW should collect a core faction instead, that the legacy factions would not be updated or receive releases or support in the future, etc. I really dont know how they could make it any clearer as they made pretty clear denials and rejections with those statements. And while everyone loves to point out that they updated the legacy pdfs once, they did so with the mea culpa acknowledgement that the pdfs were not released as intended (with certain rumormongers stating that they actually released an older pre-final edit of the files by mistake) and they had to correct the errors.

Mchagen wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Denial is a hell of a drug i guess.

It sure is Rick James.

If someone jumps on here and posts 'can we stop talking about legacy factions,' guess what that makes me want to talk about regardless of whether or not I believe they're returning as supported factions.

I know, i got caught in that trap too. I just cant help myself. Im just tired of beating the dead horse on the topic. Its like charlie brown with a football.

First it was "Once they release all the core factions theyll do the legacy factions"

Now its "Once they release cathay theyll do the legacy factions"

Next its going to be (probably) "Once they do kislev theyll do legacy factions"

Eventually itll be "Once they release second edition theyll do legacy factions"

And so on and so forth. I dont know how long this has to go on for before people realize that GW is taking this in a different direction from what they may have wanted or expected, and that they should just enjoy the ride. If GW does legacy factions it likely wont be anytime soon, certainly not as soon as those talking legacy factions want it or expect it to be. Play the game they are selling you now and allow yourself to be surprised and delighted if and when the legacy factions show up, rather than beating this annoying loud drum and getting pissy that they are prioritizing other things and going in different directions.

Yeah, just like when they said WFB wasn't coming back at all.



Oh, wait...

and they meant it when they said it. so maybe you can get legacy factions in a decade, but GW has been very clear that they aren't in the cards right now

 Londinium wrote:

JWh85 wrote:

I keep being amazed by how upfront GW has been about the near future for legacy armies and people who keep being surprised and disgruntled about it.

I'm amazed by people who actually believe anything GW says via Warhammer Community, when it's been shown on a number of occasions that they will go back on their official position when there's commercial logic in doing so, or will outright tell lies when it suits them (like the old weird messaging around Cathay). It's like some people on this forum have no clue about corporate communications. GW will deny the legacy factions are ever coming back until the day before they announce that they (or at least one army) are coming back, it's standard business practice as it quiets down distracting debate. We may never see all the legacy factions back but I'd bet substantial money on some of them returning within the next 3-4 years if TOW continues being a success.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I know corporate speak and also know GW's spiel: I've been a GW customer since the early '90's. WH community has been reverting on itself on more than one occasion. However, they have been uncommonly upfront about what they will do in the forseeable future. I absolutely agree that they'll probably bring back at least some legacy armies in the future . But they've planned out the game for at least some time yet. I don't understand why people were upset that Cathay released before their legacy army; Kislev will probably be next. It'll be a good while before we see at least some legacy armies returning I think.

I don't think anyone is upset it came out first. I think pretty much everyone expected it to come out before any legacy armies. I think most of us thought Kislev first since that was still in the "Old World" and that Cathay would be their transition to opening the world up more widely.

Also as far as legacy armies I think most people that even talk about them understand that until their replaced or pulled from AoS we won't see them and that may mean we don't see some that are too spreadout/core idea of an AoS army. And we're more likely to get a completely unique branch off faction for some of them (i.e. Vampire Pirates vs. old VC) that can have their own models instead of trying to pull the 30 kits spread over 4 AoS factions out. Some may get reimagined (Ogres) and some may just never show up because unless you're looking globally they don't interact much (Lizardmen).

 Just Tony wrote:
Yeah, just like when they said WFB wasn't coming back at all.
Oh, wait...

which is still technically correct, WHFB didn't come back
the same way as it is technically correct when GW said they removed IGoUGo from AoS

and this is the big thing people miss, what you think it means and what GW think it means isn't the same and what people want to understand from what they say is most of the time only technically correct

It's also important to note that what GW says is true at the time of saying. That doesn't mean things can't change in the future - esp for a firm that is in a strong position.

It's like how PP said that old models were never coming back for Warmachine. It was 100% true when they said it before pairing with Steamforged Games.


Company marketing aims to be simple and easy to understand in the moment. "It's not coming back" is way better than "well we can't bring it back, we'd like too but we'd need a huge amount of money and stability and a strong selling existing brand and enough consumer pressure and Dave in Accounting to get over the fact that we make models and that we don't have to squeeze every penny for maximum profit and for Bob to find the document that tells us which mould makes what which we lost in the great paper-fall of last year"


One is a clear simple easy to digest message that conveys in the instant the state of play with the most likely outcome. The other is a rambling mess that leaves customers sitting on the shelf waiting for "IF maybe" it happens tomorrow. Rather than buying into the new current stuff now that is on the shelf;

I was at adepticon playing. There was good representation of legacy armies at Adepticon. Some of the big wigs (I don’t know their names - I think the 40K head guy and the guy that wrote the 7th Ed high elf army book Adam Troke) walked around observing the games. I spoke to Adam for a bit - nice fella. I’m not arguing for or against legacy here but I’m sure GW isn’t oblivious to the player base despite not making official statements and their stance being no legacy support / not tournament legal.

Well the community matter. I think talking about legacy factions and keep playing/building them actually contribute to bringing them back sooner or later.

 nathan2004 wrote:
I was at adepticon playing. There was good representation of legacy armies at Adepticon. Some of the big wigs (I don’t know their names - I think the 40K head guy and the guy that wrote the 7th Ed high elf army book Adam Troke) walked around observing the games. I spoke to Adam for a bit - nice fella. I’m not arguing for or against legacy here but I’m sure GW isn’t oblivious to the player base despite not making official statements and their stance being no legacy support / not tournament legal.

I have to think (hope?) that the Chaos Dwarf Golden Daemon award winning is a good sign?