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I could see a similar approach to the Horus Heresy, where they release campaign books focused on fleshing out a small number of factions at once.

For example, a Ravening Hordes style book that provides get-you-by rules for everyone.
First stop is the Empire civil war which also has the core rules. Second stop is Asavar Kul and the Siege of Praag, giving us Warriors, Dwarfs and Kislev. Then it's over to Finuval Plains which includes High Elves, Dark Elves and Daemons. So on until you have captured every faction in an exemplary campaign, roughly in the right era (Say 2000-onwards).

Tyel wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Old world had thousands of years of history. They can't detail everything completely before everybody in this forum is dead from old age anyway without even inventing post-end time alternative history.

This is an interesting idea.
So if they release the edition and its explicitly 30 years before the Great War with Chaos, do you think they'll then flit around to say the War of the Beard, that time when the Skaven almost conquered the Empire, the Vampire Wars a generation or two earlier and so on? I guess nothing stops them, Fantasy tried to be a bit temporally agnostic, but I suspect they won't.

Warhammer Fantasy 'historical' always suffered from the fact that most historic conflicts only really involved two out of the ~ dozen factions that existed. Sure, you can do a Ulthuan Civil War book, but what do you do if you have e.g. Wood Elves or Skaven and did canonically not exist during that time period? At beast you can play irrelevant window-dressing to the major players in such a conflict, e.g. Chaos raiders that use the confusion of war to further their own goals. The Great War at least involves all factions in a scope that makes them relevant enough for their armies to be present.

That being said, back in the day they had awesome campaign sets that included some cardboard stuff, a couple of historic scenarios for two or three armies, and were accompanied by a handful of miniatures for each side. Perhaps that's a way to do stuff like this, splash releases centered around an impressive character on both sides and a couple of troops, you could do them at a frequency that's about as fast as kill-team releases. A product somewhere between campaign set and regiment of renown.

Forgeworld also wanted to do 'historic' splash books for WHFB in the same vein as their 'historical' Imperial Armour books for 40k before they became Horus Heresy Inc., but Tamurkhan: Throne of Chaos was more like an alternate timeline and ended up as a dud, while their awesome concept work for a planned Battle for Blackfire Pass book never got off the ground and just vanished without producing much in terms of models.

A bit hard to read through this thread so maybe someone can answer these Q's for me:

1: Are Chaos dwarfs confirmed yet?
2: Which quarter is the release? (4th I take it?)
3: Any info on white dwarf mag adding a section for oldworld or will there be a new mag for this?

Thanks in advance.

 Leopold Helveine wrote:
A bit hard to read through this thread so maybe someone can answer these Q's for me:

1: Are Chaos dwarfs confirmed yet?
2: Which quarter is the release? (4th I take it?)
3: Any info on white dwarf mag adding a section for oldworld or will there be a new mag for this?

Thanks in advance.

1. Their icons are on the map, no confirmation beyond this point as of yet.
2. No release date has been given, it is unlikely to be released in 2023.
3. No info given so far.

Tsagualsa wrote:


Forgeworld also wanted to do 'historic' splash books for WHFB in the same vein as their 'historical' Imperial Armour books for 40k before they became Horus Heresy Inc., but Tamurkhan: Throne of Chaos was more like an alternate timeline and ended up as a dud,

Interestingly enough, Tamurkhan was intended as an alternate timeline series that would result in a version of the End Times and main GW said that it had to fit into the main timeline(most likely because they already had plans for the actual End Times). Also interesting that it would have been the second main timeline split(the first being the ending of WHFRP's Enemy Within Campaign).

 Platuan4th wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:


Forgeworld also wanted to do 'historic' splash books for WHFB in the same vein as their 'historical' Imperial Armour books for 40k before they became Horus Heresy Inc., but Tamurkhan: Throne of Chaos was more like an alternate timeline and ended up as a dud,

Interestingly enough, Tamurkhan was intended as an alternate timeline series that would result in a version of the End Times and main GW said that it had to fit into the main timeline(most likely because they already had plans for the actual End Times). Also interesting that it would have been the second main timeline split(the first being the ending of WHFRP's Enemy Within Campaign).

Ahem, the third and second respectively.

Blood Bowl's universe is the first

chaos0xomega wrote:


Yeah, no. While the rollout of AoS left much to be desired, the fairly large jump in GWs revenue and profit following the death of WHFB and the launch of Age of Sigmar tells us that WHFBs death was actually a pretty smart business move that resulted in financial success that WHFB never delivered them.

Ok I think we need to step back or we are going to lure ourselves into yet another AoS to Old World evolution and comparison discussion

I thought this was meant to be the news only thread and anything else went into the discussions thread.

 Dysartes wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yeah, no. While the rollout of AoS left much to be desired, the fairly large jump in GWs revenue and profit following the death of WHFB and the launch of Age of Sigmar tells us that WHFBs death was actually a pretty smart business move that resulted in financial success that WHFB never delivered them.

8th felt like it was set up to fail, from a design perspective, a release perspective, and a commercial perspective. Designing a game that's going to result in multiple big blocks of infantry being the best way to play combined with hiking the cost and/or reducing the contents of infantry kits, and not releasing many of the things that were probably needed (or botching them) all conspire to result in a game that GW had put in a position where it was hard to get new people into and where there wasn't much new for existing players to buy.

Of course it wasn't a major revenue driver during that edition after the initial edition launch - which normally sees a sales spike - and until the start of The End Times (where people actually had new stuff to buy).

If you don't give a game the conditions it requires to thrive, don't be surprised when it doesn't.

GWs revenue/profit actually fell through the entirety of The End Times release cycle, so theres plenty of evidence to suggest that there was no salvaging WHFB. For proof (and to challenge Geifers attempts to argue the contrary), I direct you to here:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/807168.page#11448021

I've done the analysis on this (in greater depth than Geifer, evidently). The numbers don't fit the narrative being spun by some here.

It actually makes sense if GW couldn’t save it at the time, that would require talent focused on that.

But for players here, I don’t think anyone was particular pleased at the time.

They needed to break the cycle they had stuck themselves in.
But I think the fact so many people want even a bit of that to come back is a neche that should be explored.
Not to mention all the video games now linked to it that’s good.

I can only say "I was there". End Times prompted massive hype. People dusted off armies they'd not used for years. End Times: Khaine sold out online in about 5 minutes. People crashed GW's website trying to buy End Times: Thanquol.

But... then we had it. A tale of dead Dwarfs, dead Skaven and Lizardmen going into space. The rumours that "this was the end" which had circulated since Khaine (possibly earlier) suddenly looked a lot more plausible, and I think hype rapidly giving way to fear on the back of it. Which then gave way to oaths of undying hatred with AoS.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yeah, no. While the rollout of AoS left much to be desired, the fairly large jump in GWs revenue and profit following the death of WHFB and the launch of Age of Sigmar tells us that WHFBs death was actually a pretty smart business move that resulted in financial success that WHFB never delivered them.

8th felt like it was set up to fail, from a design perspective, a release perspective, and a commercial perspective. Designing a game that's going to result in multiple big blocks of infantry being the best way to play combined with hiking the cost and/or reducing the contents of infantry kits, and not releasing many of the things that were probably needed (or botching them) all conspire to result in a game that GW had put in a position where it was hard to get new people into and where there wasn't much new for existing players to buy.

Of course it wasn't a major revenue driver during that edition after the initial edition launch - which normally sees a sales spike - and until the start of The End Times (where people actually had new stuff to buy).

If you don't give a game the conditions it requires to thrive, don't be surprised when it doesn't.

GWs revenue/profit actually fell through the entirety of The End Times release cycle, so theres plenty of evidence to suggest that there was no salvaging WHFB. For proof (and to challenge Geifers attempts to argue the contrary), I direct you to here:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/807168.page#11448021

I've done the analysis on this (in greater depth than Geifer, evidently). The numbers don't fit the narrative being spun by some here.

You got the release date of the first General's Handbook wrong by a year.

Tsagualsa wrote:

Tyel wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Old world had thousands of years of history. They can't detail everything completely before everybody in this forum is dead from old age anyway without even inventing post-end time alternative history.

Forgeworld also wanted to do 'historic' splash books for WHFB in the same vein as their 'historical' Imperial Armour books for 40k before they became Horus Heresy Inc., but Tamurkhan: Throne of Chaos was more like an alternate timeline and ended up as a dud, while their awesome concept work for a planned Battle for Blackfire Pass book never got off the ground and just vanished without producing much in terms of models.

The rumour is that Blackfire Pass was pretty much complete but got canned due to the early death of Warhammer Forge, which was a minor scandal that lead to Rick Priestley leaving the company. Now we can see it's probably likely that it was killed because they'd made the decision to go the AOS route but at the time there was a lot of bemusement.

God the things that would come out if GW ever had a leak, like those that regularly affect the video gaming world.

Tyel wrote:
I can only say "I was there". End Times prompted massive hype. People dusted off armies they'd not used for years. End Times: Khaine sold out online in about 5 minutes. People crashed GW's website trying to buy End Times: Thanquol.

But... then we had it. A tale of dead Dwarfs, dead Skaven and Lizardmen going into space. The rumours that "this was the end" which had circulated since Khaine (possibly earlier) suddenly looked a lot more plausible, and I think hype rapidly giving way to fear on the back of it. Which then gave way to oaths of undying hatred with AoS.

The experiences of your local community are not necessarily indicative of the experiences of the broader marketplace. At my local store, I was one of two people to actually buy any of the books, the store ended up with almost 2 dozen copies of unsold End Times books in hardback and softcover lingering on the shelves (which I eventually helped them sell on eBay at an 80% loss). Likewise any number of other GW retailers in the area had large numbers of the books sitting on their dusty shelves, a few of them still do.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Tyel wrote:
I can only say "I was there". End Times prompted massive hype. People dusted off armies they'd not used for years. End Times: Khaine sold out online in about 5 minutes. People crashed GW's website trying to buy End Times: Thanquol.

But... then we had it. A tale of dead Dwarfs, dead Skaven and Lizardmen going into space. The rumours that "this was the end" which had circulated since Khaine (possibly earlier) suddenly looked a lot more plausible, and I think hype rapidly giving way to fear on the back of it. Which then gave way to oaths of undying hatred with AoS.

The experiences of your local community are not necessarily indicative of the experiences of the broader marketplace. At my local store, I was one of two people to actually buy any of the books, the store ended up with almost 2 dozen copies of unsold End Times books in hardback and softcover lingering on the shelves (which I eventually helped them sell on eBay at an 80% loss). Likewise any number of other GW retailers in the area had large numbers of the books sitting on their dusty shelves, a few of them still do.

I'd imagine this – as most things related to this hobby – to have varied a lot depending on one's locale.

 Overread wrote:
Ok I think we need to step back or we are going to lure ourselves into yet another AoS to Old World evolution and comparison discussion

...and this is why GW shouldn't have opened their article with multiple reminders about how they killed WHFB and how it's a dead setting, even 7 years later it's still clearly a sore spot for many WHFB fans.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Tyel wrote:
I can only say "I was there". End Times prompted massive hype. People dusted off armies they'd not used for years. End Times: Khaine sold out online in about 5 minutes. People crashed GW's website trying to buy End Times: Thanquol.

But... then we had it. A tale of dead Dwarfs, dead Skaven and Lizardmen going into space. The rumours that "this was the end" which had circulated since Khaine (possibly earlier) suddenly looked a lot more plausible, and I think hype rapidly giving way to fear on the back of it. Which then gave way to oaths of undying hatred with AoS.

The experiences of your local community are not necessarily indicative of the experiences of the broader marketplace. At my local store, I was one of two people to actually buy any of the books, the store ended up with almost 2 dozen copies of unsold End Times books in hardback and softcover lingering on the shelves (which I eventually helped them sell on eBay at an 80% loss). Likewise any number of other GW retailers in the area had large numbers of the books sitting on their dusty shelves, a few of them still do.

The hype online is more what I'm thinking.

What happened at your local store is heavily dependent on what your store ordered, what the local community profile is like and how well the store judged their local community.

But it's hardly surprising that any copies of End Times books that didn't sell out immediately became steaming piles of turds on the shelves, WHFB fans were enjoying End Times right up until they figured out it was actually the end, after which many people preferred to flush it from their memories and pretend it never happened. Shifting End Times product AFTER the End Times was never going to be lucrative.

Time to take it t'other thread me thinks.

So, the latest releaae mentions Avasar Kull. Can he co exist with Louen the Orc Slayer? Different wikis say they lived a century apart?

 triplegrim wrote:
So, the latest releaae mentions Avasar Kull. Can he co exist with Louen the Orc Slayer? Different wikis say they lived a century apart?

Yeah, Louen Orcslayer started his reign in 2201 iirc and was noted to have personannly lead the cleansing of Bretonnia from Orks for the next century, and Asavar Kull can easily be centuries old due to chaos shenanigans, and did of course die in 2304 at the culmination of the Great War against Chaos. Kings of Bretonnia are usually also Grail Knights and have much extended lifespans due to the Grail's magic, so it checks out.

Now i am going to toss this out their. GW did say that the Old World was going to take place during the time of three emperors. Since this period of time does not just cover the Great War with Chaos, but also the Vampire Wars, Gorbad Ironclaw's Waagh on the empire, The War of Sand and Blood in land of the dead, Norse raids on the high elves, the Second Skaven Civil War, and the other conflicts and campaign settings. This would make more sense then focusing on a single war that the whole of the Warhammer World was not a part of. GW could release the different conflicts/wars/campaigns as a source book with the major and minor players, the world/politics/intrigues of the time, different armies that were part of the war, the SC's and RoR that may have been their as well. That kind of thing

 Paymaster Games wrote:
Now i am going to toss this out their. GW did say that the Old World was going to take place during the time of three emperors. Since this period of time does not just cover the Great War with Chaos, but also the Vampire Wars, Gorbad Ironclaw's Waagh on the empire, The War of Sand and Blood in land of the dead, Norse raids on the high elves, the Second Skaven Civil War, and the other conflicts and campaign settings. This would make more sense then focusing on a single war that the whole of the Warhammer World was not a part of. GW could release the different conflicts/wars/campaigns as a source book with the major and minor players, the world/politics/intrigues of the time, different armies that were part of the war, the SC's and RoR that may have been their as well. That kind of thing

Having a base rulebook and army book with Storm of Chaos style sourcebooks with campaigns, armies and sub factions sounds very attractive to me.

They said it’ll take place during that time period. We can still head anywhere in the world during those years.
Plenty of story scope for that 20 years span if we go with that.

Deleted, off topic.

I personally hope TOW is successful enough for them to develop the less explored regions of the world like Ind and the southern continent. We know there’s “good” beastmen down there, as well as a bunch of human nations. After Cathay, of course.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
I personally hope TOW is successful enough for them to develop the less explored regions of the world like Ind and the southern continent. We know there’s “good” beastmen down there, as well as a bunch of human nations. After Cathay, of course.

I would love to see a Far East source book with Cathey, Nippon, Ogre Kingdoms, and Hobgoblin Khanate, with mercenaries from Ind and the other lands of the East, but i do not think that is going to happen.

You know it might. GW will only make rules for models so lets break it down, 4 Heroes ( General, BSB, Wizard, Random Hero), 4 units (Light foot troops, Heavy Foot, Light Cav, heavy cav), one artillery, one monster. This is very do able.

 Paymaster Games wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
I personally hope TOW is successful enough for them to develop the less explored regions of the world like Ind and the southern continent. We know there’s “good” beastmen down there, as well as a bunch of human nations. After Cathay, of course.

I would love to see a Far East source book with Cathey, Nippon, Ogre Kingdoms, and Hobgoblin Khanate, with mercenaries from Ind and the other lands of the East, but i do not think that is going to happen.

You know it might. GW will only make rules for models so lets break it down, 4 Heroes ( General, BSB, Wizard, Random Hero), 4 units (Light foot troops, Heavy Foot, Light Cav, heavy cav), one artillery, one monster. This is very do able.

A sourcebook like that certainly would have to thread very very carefully in order not to become Warhammer Armies: Racism, and GW has a less than stellar record on that front. It's probably too risky for a game that just start to re-establish itself.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Paymaster Games wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
I personally hope TOW is successful enough for them to develop the less explored regions of the world like Ind and the southern continent. We know there’s “good” beastmen down there, as well as a bunch of human nations. After Cathay, of course.

I would love to see a Far East source book with Cathey, Nippon, Ogre Kingdoms, and Hobgoblin Khanate, with mercenaries from Ind and the other lands of the East, but i do not think that is going to happen.

You know it might. GW will only make rules for models so lets break it down, 4 Heroes ( General, BSB, Wizard, Random Hero), 4 units (Light foot troops, Heavy Foot, Light Cav, heavy cav), one artillery, one monster. This is very do able.

A sourcebook like that certainly would have to thread very very carefully in order not to become Warhammer Armies: Racism, and GW has a less than stellar record on that front. It's probably too risky for a game that just start to re-establish itself.

Which reminds me of the 'outrage' over the old D&D Oriental Adventures playing into medieval Asian stereotypes. As if D&D and WFB aren't already playing into medieval European stereotypes.

Generally speaking Western culture is OK with racism against whites (and sexism against men, for that matter) due to both the historical and current institutions of government favoring them.

I wish they had kept the bretonnian stuff around longer. The plastic men at arms, Pegasus knights and others were still recent kits when AoS came along and then poof they were gone what a couple years later? What a waste ☹️