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not really
the main advantage GW has with TOW over any other new game be it their own or from someone else is, is having a huge playerbase with stuff in the basement and therefore can have a critical number of players day 1 of done right

hence why we saw Khemri and Bretonnia as the first 2 armies, generate hype and bringing back the old crowed
so there are 50-100 people events, game gets going and people are already invested and builded communities before there are army books with fresh new armies

Makes sense. I'm sure I'm not the only old WHFB player with an army gathering dust.
Though in my case its lizardmen, which are still using legacy rules.
They are bringing out Beastmen, High Elves and Wood Elves though, which means Dark Elves and Lizards might be next. Then it would just be Skaven and Vampire Counts (though I'm not sure they are around in this period) left, and I think that's all of the old WHFB factions?

I doubt we see legacy armies coming back

keeping their IPs apart is currently a very important thing based on what they are doing
so anything that is in AoS, one way or the other, won't be in TOW (no Skaven or Vampires)

and than we will see, as soon as they start with new factions and army books, there will be more (and more old armies moved to legacy in favour of shiny new ones)

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Makes sense. I'm sure I'm not the only old WHFB player with an army gathering dust.
Though in my case its lizardmen, which are still using legacy rules.
They are bringing out Beastmen, High Elves and Wood Elves though, which means Dark Elves and Lizards might be next. Then it would just be Skaven and Vampire Counts (though I'm not sure they are around in this period) left, and I think that's all of the old WHFB factions?

Beastmen, High Elves and Wood Elves have been in the books from the start, they’re just getting round to rereleasing their stuff now. Dark Elves and Lizardmen (and Skaven and VC) have been separated as Legacy Factions from the start too, so unless something changes/has changed, there aren’t plans to bring them back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:
I doubt we see legacy armies coming back

keeping their IPs apart is currently a very important thing based on what they are doing
so anything that is in AoS, one way or the other, won't be in TOW (no Skaven or Vampires)

and than we will see, as soon as they start with new factions and army books, there will be more (and more old armies moved to legacy in favour of shiny new ones)

The biggest issue with the idea of it just being a case of ‘if it’s in AoS it won’t be in TOW’ of course being Warriors of Chaos/Slaves to Darkness.

Chaos Warriors have always been the closest thing that WHFB had to space marines (iconic to the setting, popular/high selling though not as popular as SM are in 40k, etc). SM are allowed to exist in 30k and 40k, makes sense WOC can exist in both. There will inevitably be some stylistic divergence in the two ranges over time when TOW eventually starts getting dedicated kit resculpts. AoS darkoath leaned into the conan vibes, im guessing that TOWs marauders will eventually lean into the Norsca vibes. As for the warriors/knights themselves? No clue. Frydaal (our first dedicated TOW chaos warrior mini) would look just as at-home in AoS as in TOW, if theres some stylistic divergence to occur then its not obviously clear what that is, whereas w space marines you can make the distinction based on armor patterns.

The one thing that does occur to me though is that rules wise, Frydaal wears full plate while regular chaos warriors wear heavy armor. Sometime back, prior to TOW releasing, I shared that I had heard from one of my sources that the lore they were going with was that the whole hellforged black iron armor of WOC of old was a post-GWAC thing and that in this era where the chaos gods were not yet adcendant finding chaos warriors bulked out to that degree was rarer because getting those gifts from them was much more difficult. If you squint, that kind of came about with chaos warriors being downgraded back to heavy armor, but to some extent that was true across the board for mamy units in many armies. Now, in the context of seeing Frydaal looking like an AoS warrior while decked out in full plate, im thinking that lore may end up coming through in future minis where regular warriors and knights in heavy armor will be more lightly kitted out than what were used to (less plate, more chainmail), while chosen adhere more to the classic full plate style but more decorative as befits their status.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Makes sense. I'm sure I'm not the only old WHFB player with an army gathering dust.
Though in my case its lizardmen, which are still using legacy rules.
They are bringing out Beastmen, High Elves and Wood Elves though, which means Dark Elves and Lizards might be next. Then it would just be Skaven and Vampire Counts (though I'm not sure they are around in this period) left, and I think that's all of the old WHFB factions?

Beastmen, High Elves and Wood Elves have been in the books from the start, they’re just getting round to rereleasing their stuff now. Dark Elves and Lizardmen (and Skaven and VC) have been separated as Legacy Factions from the start too, so unless something changes/has changed, there aren’t plans to bring them back.

Oh. Well that's a pity. I was hoping for my lizards to get some proper rules :/

chaos0xomega wrote:
See also: Horus Heresy which was resin only for quite some time.

In other news, its going around that GW pulled support from the TOW LVO tournament because the organizers refused to ban the legacy armies from the event. Seems like GW is stull pretty adamant in its stance that they will not support those armies.

I’m here playing in it (although I dropped the second day because I drank too much Friday night haha and got sick) and I haven’t heard that. Good time with cool people - lots of fun.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerFantasy/comments/1i4bhyr/the_old_world_at_lvo_thus_far/

 Londinium wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:

 RustyNumber wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Tbh thats the exact situation they created By providing the pdf lists, even after multiple explicit statements that those factions will not be supported going forward. They should have just left it at the statements and not provided the rules.

For the very low cost of having to make up some rules they support all the old players (thus giving new/mini-supported players more opponents and the game scene more life) and generate some AoS mini sales as well. I think that's worth more to GW than "oh no what if mixed messaging causes a bit of angst in some players even after we clearly say they won't be supported further"

GW has been pretty explicit on their stance regarding the legacy armies. Anyone who hasn't caught that message is living in delusion. Sure, I'd love to see Dark Elves get official support, but I'm not expecting it.

GW have been explicit about many things in the past and then gone back on it. It's standard corporate communications.

I wish this topic would just bloody die, the people who are adamant the legacy armies will never return even if TOW becomes a raging success, are so tiresome as those that read every GW decision as fuel for 'legacy armies will return'.

Let's wait and see.

Look, it would surprise me not at all to see Darkling Covens get dropped from the Cities of Sigmar so that the Dark Elves can show up in Old World (including re-releasing the 6th edition metal Witch Elves so that they can keep the lines separate). But again, unless/until GW says otherwise, I'm not going to expect it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:
The biggest issue with the idea of it just being a case of ‘if it’s in AoS it won’t be in TOW’ of course being Warriors of Chaos/Slaves to Darkness.

Except the two settings have different kits even for identical units, like Chaos Warriors, Knights, and Chosen.

I feel like there's already a big chunk of things from several of the lists Sold out or unavailable online anymore - The new bret character was sold out almost immediately and the empire characters / new wizards as well. They seem to need a major restock of a wide variety of more recent and older minis.

That seems like a regional thing. They haven't moved on the UK store.

Pardon me for my continuing ignorance, but does anyone know when the Wave 1 Empire releases will show up in Australia?

Wave 2 is up for preorder on the Australian site, but I still can't find any trace of Wave 1 (which has been delayed according to a helpful person upthread).

Unless of course I'm getting it backward and Wave 2 is in fact Wave 1.

 BorderCountess wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
The biggest issue with the idea of it just being a case of ‘if it’s in AoS it won’t be in TOW’ of course being Warriors of Chaos/Slaves to Darkness.

Except the two settings have different kits even for identical units, like Chaos Warriors, Knights, and Chosen.

Skaven and Vampire Counts are also at the point where they would, too, or at least very close. Almost everything for them from WHFB has been replaced now.

Zenithfleet wrote:
Pardon me for my continuing ignorance, but does anyone know when the Wave 1 Empire releases will show up in Australia?

Wave 2 is up for preorder on the Australian site, but I still can't find any trace of Wave 1 (which has been delayed according to a helpful person upthread).

Unless of course I'm getting it backward and Wave 2 is in fact Wave 1.

Not even all of Wave 2 is on the Australian site, just the stuff that's ordered from UK
Unfortunately I haven't seen GW post an expected timeline anywhere aside from Soon™

chaos0xomega wrote:
As I said in one of the other comments - they didnt have to make any "commitment". They could have just left it open ended as to which factions were coming when. Instead they were very up front in committing to 9 factions being returned and committing to 7 factions in the dust bin. Think about that. You cant have it both ways, you cant say "nuh uh its too much to commit to because once they commit they cant change their minds" and then go "they committed to not supporting the legacy factions but they can always change their minds later".

We don't know if they committed to Kislev ahead of launch or just Cathay

As it stands, the first two factions ever announced for TOW were actually Kislev and Cathay, before we knew anything about core factions or legacy factions we had direct statements from Warhammer Community that Kislev and Cathay would be tabletop armies in TOW.

They released a book with all the army lists in on day 1. They had PDFs of the armies not supported.

What exactly do you think their communication should be at that point?

What i really like about the new Old World models is the lack (mostly) of tactical rocks. Just plain warriors with feat on the ground. Apart from a few that really enhance the model (Ushoran comes to mind) I don't care for them.

JWh85 wrote:
What i really like about the new Old World models is the lack (mostly) of tactical rocks. Just plain warriors with feat on the ground. Apart from a few that really enhance the model (Ushoran comes to mind) I don't care for them.

That's because they have saved them all up for the 'high' elves!

Those are old models. The new models don't have a tactical rock between them!

(That High Elf Wizard is really really bad though )

In another note, why does Burlok only have one picture? We don't even have a picture from behind or the sides. I mean, no 360 pics on release, fine. But buying a model of just one foto from one side? It makes me (probably unjustly) suspicious about the quality of the model.

Vorian wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
As I said in one of the other comments - they didnt have to make any "commitment". They could have just left it open ended as to which factions were coming when. Instead they were very up front in committing to 9 factions being returned and committing to 7 factions in the dust bin. Think about that. You cant have it both ways, you cant say "nuh uh its too much to commit to because once they commit they cant change their minds" and then go "they committed to not supporting the legacy factions but they can always change their minds later".

We don't know if they committed to Kislev ahead of launch or just Cathay

As it stands, the first two factions ever announced for TOW were actually Kislev and Cathay, before we knew anything about core factions or legacy factions we had direct statements from Warhammer Community that Kislev and Cathay would be tabletop armies in TOW.

They released a book with all the army lists in on day 1. They had PDFs of the armies not supported.

What exactly do you think their communication should be at that point?

They could have just... not? And followed a similar release model to basically all the other games in their stable. Their choice to release everything in day 1 compilation books the way they did wasnt really necessary. They cpuld have instead did barebones pdfs for all 16 factions on day 1, said "these are get you by lists for legacy whfb players, stay tuned for official releases in the future, though note that there will be many changes as these factions make the transition into TOW, some of the units and indeed entire factions may not make the transition to TOW, but we shall see what the future holds, and left it open ended. Arcane journals then would be full-size army books with the necessary updates to the pdf lists, and if the game sold well enough - lo and behold they fund the 7 legacy factions. If it diesnt sell well enoygh they say "sorry, as we said not every faction was going to feature in TOW, you can continue playing the pdf list though".

In general, every other game follows a pretty vague release model in which we have zero advanced knowldfge of what factions are to be added or cut during any given edition cycle, etc. Units, and at times armies, are basically cut constantly with minimal notice. its rather odd and singular that GW decided to tell us what to expect upfront in this instance. When HH2.0 released they basically said "here is the astartes list, other army lists might or might not come later, by the way a lot of units and options are going to be cut, some of it might or might not appear again later" and left it vague, zero commitment, lots of uncertainty, but it worked.

(if you havent figured it out yet, im pointing these things out to highlight the fact that GW took extraordinary steps to message that the legacy factions arent happening, and because of that their position on the topic probably will not change).

JWh85 wrote:
Those are old models. The new models don't have a tactical rock between them!

Are you quite sure about that?




I'd not be surprised if they released Cathay based on the mountains from the background art work at this point!

That's more than i thought, though some of the the cavalry models have those low stone bases to fit the mount's feet into.

The dwarf has an oathstone? That doesn't count

Worst offenders are the black orc, Nekaph and Frydaal. Nekaph is just horrible. It feels like the train of thought was: 'That comically long lost isn't long enough.' and instead of draping the longer list on the ground around him they decided to just elevatie him on a rock. The orc's rock is at least serviceable to his lurching pose. Frydaal's is wierdly useless and doesn't make the model better in any way.

One of those is an oathstone which has actual rules in game I believe (I don’t play dwarves so not 100% sure).

JWh85 wrote:
That's more than you thought, though some of the the cavalry models have those low stone bases to fit the mount's feet into.

The dwarf has an oathstone? That doesn't count

The oathstone is on a rock. So GW put a rock on a rock.
I can't wait for them to release a rock golem that's standing on a tactical rock armed with a stone club that also comes with a tactical rock.

Quite a surprise to see only 1 of the new Empire Wizards is sold out on the UK store. Maybe I'm just misremembering but I thought the new stuff for the other factions were sold out very quickly.

Maybe they made more of them?

If GW is intent on keeping WFB lines virtually unchanged in AoS, I doubt it will be very long before even the legacy faction army lists will disappear from GW's pages.


Once they get the game to a certain critical mass of players, they won't need to support those old factions because the new player base will be self sustaining.

I would treat these factions like OG marines vs primaris, slowly being edged out until gone entirely.

If they can build the game base up enough in the next few years with their actual miniature releases, I expect the next edition of the game will be where we see lines like 'we are refocusing the game, streamlining for players, making it easier for new people, focusing on the core of the game' etc etc blah blah, and then just strip those legacy faction lists entirely from the game.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Makes sense. I'm sure I'm not the only old WHFB player with an army gathering dust.
Though in my case its lizardmen, which are still using legacy rules.
They are bringing out Beastmen, High Elves and Wood Elves though, which means Dark Elves and Lizards might be next. Then it would just be Skaven and Vampire Counts (though I'm not sure they are around in this period) left, and I think that's all of the old WHFB factions?

Personally i think it's a bit BS that skaven "aren't around" as per GW's excuse. The most numerous faction in the game on every continent (except maybe ulthuan) can't be bothered while high elves probably technically are still in their isolation phase or near the end of it from the "war of the beard" and the civil war excuse hits empire as hard as it does the skaven if not worse. If skaven stay a Legacy faction it's only due to AoS and being the Big Bad currently for AoS's current edition and they can't bother to see a faction split between 2 games hence why Beastmen left to go to Old World.

As for Lizardmen we only got them when Human colonies showed up in the new world or if Dark elves get in the way. Meanwhile skaven being some of the most treacherous faction have fought just about everybody: dwarfs, empire, all kinds of greenskins but esp. goblins of all types, Lizardmen, Vampire Counts and Nagash esp., bretonnia (to a lesser extent) and some battles vs chaos (The monstrous skaven in Hellpit).

Even Tomb Kings feel a bit off as the empire is in a civil war and i don't really understand why they'd treasure hunt in khemri when they have so many problems in the immediate vicinity.

Dark elves sorta make sense as legacy because they only ever really fight chaos, lizardmen and high elves which is significantly far enough away from the Old World.

Honestly couldn't say for sure about Vampire Counts. There should be vampires around at this time in the lore but i don't even know if Vlad existed yet. Would be cool to see Vampires or arkhan the black (nagash's 2nd in command) without the Von Carsteins but without the Von Carsteins we have no Vampire Counts as Von carsteins have a legit claim to elector count and can become the emperor of the empire as weird as that is hence the term "Vampire Count".

High Elves are actually quite active at this point - alot of trading and even exploring- unlike the Dark Elves - in fact in the Tyrion and Teclis novel they are speculating that the Druchii are dying out.. Alarielle's mother is Everqueen with her older sister being trained to take her place. It is implied that the Dark Elves are not even rading the Old World much in this period

Lizardmen have been known to teleport to the Old World for specific reasons.

Vampires - the Carsteins are mostly destroyed or hiding (Vlad and Izzy are long gone, Manfred was the last).

"There’s nothing more ‘’boring’’ than a gathering of elder vampires. Believe me. I’ve suffered enough of them in my centuries. All those long grey faces and ragged black cloaks. The stag-at-rut jousts as two old fools get in a squabble about some mortal morsel. You hear the same stories over and over. Mostly, yarns about how we didn’t really loose the Undead Wars blah blah blah and are just biding our time before we emerge from our mountain fastnesses and take up our rightful positions as rulers of humanity blah blah blah." ~ Melissa d'Acques to Genevieve and Detlef Sierick

Loads of active (and much older) Vampires not of that newcomer bloodline - the Necrarchs in the forests and ruins, Lahmians all over the place - but both are hidden. Genevieve is likely in the far east learning martial arts and magic. Blood Dragons might be back at Blood Keep but otherwise scattered about.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Genevieve is likely in the far east learning martial arts and magic.

Cue Genevieve as a special character - for CATHAY.

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Genevieve is likely in the far east learning martial arts and magic.

Cue Genevieve as a special character - for CATHAY.

And she’s almost as strong and fast as the transformed-dragon nobles.