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 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
The Empire being last astounds the hell out of me, unless they have something MAJOR planned.

That or more likely they feel that "human" fans are already served with the Brets so they want to get more non-human fantasy factions out

I hope that isn't the case. Bretonnia is a niche army. Empire being released sooner rather than later will be better for the game.

I suspect some of the new blood getting into the game with Brets will have buyers remorse as it is.

They also only just released Cities of Sigmar, so probably feel as though the market for fantasy humans is quite well-served at present.

Grail Seeker wrote:
I hope that isn't the case. Bretonnia is a niche army. Empire being released sooner rather than later will be better for the game.

I suspect some of the new blood getting into the game with Brets will have buyers remorse as it is.

I mean a niche army that's basically your classic knights in shining armour army. You can't really get more classic fantasy humans without adding a Round Table and Robbin Hood

I can sort of see Empire being last on the argument that they are - arguably - the faction that needs the most change for the era. And arguably has the most scope for expanding for the setting if you want to put emphasis on the 3 Emperors situation.

Maybe its a lack of imagination - but High Elves for instance feel kind of complete. You could do new versions of certain models - but nothing is obviously missing from the range. (Bring back both versions of the Tiranoc Chariot you cowards.)

I do feel a bit conflicted. All the effort put into new TK is great. But then you are left with the ancient sculpts for the basic troops. Which feels kind of weird and bad.

High Elves could actually benefit from some units being removed from the army - looking at you, ridiculous flying boats

Tyel wrote:
I can sort of see Empire being last on the argument that they are - arguably - the faction that needs the most change for the era. And arguably has the most scope for expanding for the setting if you want to put emphasis on the 3 Emperors situation.

Maybe its a lack of imagination - but High Elves for instance feel kind of complete. You could do new versions of certain models - but nothing is obviously missing from the range. (Bring back both versions of the Tiranoc Chariot you cowards.)

I do feel a bit conflicted. All the effort put into new TK is great. But then you are left with the ancient sculpts for the basic troops. Which feels kind of weird and bad.

HE got a big update near the end of Old World as I recall. Although a few models got caught in that Island of Blood single sprue issue; but they still had a lot of well updated models and were in a very solid spot. It was kind of a surprise that so much of their army got removed from AoS over time.

So yes they'd likely not need much if any change and would land with a fairly modern/suitable army on the table. Perhaps with GW then raiding the archives for some unique older heroes and characters and stuff.

 Overread wrote:

Grail Seeker wrote:
I hope that isn't the case. Bretonnia is a niche army. Empire being released sooner rather than later will be better for the game.

I suspect some of the new blood getting into the game with Brets will have buyers remorse as it is.

I mean a niche army that's basically your classic knights in shining armour army. You can't really get more classic fantasy humans without adding a Round Table and Robbin Hood

You mean Bertrand le Brigand & the Bowmen of Bergerac? They better come back.

No One Important wrote:

 Overread wrote:

Grail Seeker wrote:
I hope that isn't the case. Bretonnia is a niche army. Empire being released sooner rather than later will be better for the game.

I suspect some of the new blood getting into the game with Brets will have buyers remorse as it is.

I mean a niche army that's basically your classic knights in shining armour army. You can't really get more classic fantasy humans without adding a Round Table and Robbin Hood

You mean Bertrand le Brigand & the Bowmen of Bergerac? They better come back.

Shame it's the wrong period in time for them - pretty sure they were meant to be active in the Old World as it came to its end.

Tyel wrote:
I can sort of see Empire being last on the argument that they are - arguably - the faction that needs the most change for the era. And arguably has the most scope for expanding for the setting if you want to put emphasis on the 3 Emperors situation.

Maybe its a lack of imagination - but High Elves for instance feel kind of complete. You could do new versions of certain models - but nothing is obviously missing from the range. (Bring back both versions of the Tiranoc Chariot you cowards.)

I do feel a bit conflicted. All the effort put into new TK is great. But then you are left with the ancient sculpts for the basic troops. Which feels kind of weird and bad.

Considering the 3 emperors situation I do find it surprising a priest of Taal wasn't included. I do think Talabheim/Talabecland put a ban on the cult of Sigmar during this era. If someone were to do a Talabecland themed army then a warrior priest of Sigmar/Ulric doesn't make much sense.

Empire will likely get a plastic captain/general on demigryph, similar to the Bretonnian lord on pegasus. Empire already had a pretty solid range of models, aside from the knights which haven't aged quite as well as the Bretonnian ones. And a plastic warrior priest kit wouldn't hurt as i'm not too keen on them bringing back the metal ones. They're probably one of the easiest of the armies to put back into production, with Wood Elves needing the most work.

Scottywan82 wrote:

 Aesthete wrote:
I guess Halberds don't count as polearms, then?

According to Sprues & Brews:

The Combat Phase probably has some of the bigger changes in the game. One biggie is the number of models that can fight. With the old Horde rule gone, in the majority of cases it’s only the first rank that can fight (Spears can fight in two ranks in they are charged, and some weapons such as polearms can always fight in two ranks)

https://spruesandbrews.com/2024/01/06/warhammer-the-old-world-rulebook-review-and-kingdom-of-bretonnia-edition-unboxing/

If that's the case, I guess "polearms" mean things like pikes?

The polearms they are referring to are the weapons for Men At Arms for Bretonnia.

I was thinking of mercenaries like Leopold's Leopard Company and the Alcatani Fellowship, but weren't their pikes so long that they fought in three ranks?

Manfred von Drakken wrote:The Empire being last

As long as the rules in Forces of Fantasy are decent, I'm happy. I have nearly 200 Empire minis rebased as it is...

 frankelee wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Some parts of this project really feel like there's a level of thought and care that seems to be missing with quite a few of their releases these days.

Releasing rules for some units without specific models and saying do whatever you like, encouraging conversions and making your own additions, the unreleased lord and also that he includes a helper miniature just because, not just re-releasing a few old models but going through the process of recasting them, even updating them and going beyond just what they were before to add new parts or extra model sculpts or just making them easier to build. Even just that they're using metal again.

I have heard some say GW management were brought kicking and screaming into this project. And that's probably true. Five years to get eight new models on release. Probably followed up with an old army rerelease a quarter taking us through 2026. And if it's doing quite well, then we'll pay to develop a new faction line. I think it's all on a shoestring budget and in-between employees other duties. Though you don't really need much more than that to bring back a product you were already making.

,
Saying this sort of thing really come across as simplifying it far too much just to find something to try to disregard the whole thing, saying "Five years for eight models" as if the only thing that matters is the number of new models released and that's the entirety of this project.

It's not a big mainline game, it's specialist. Not counting re-released/reboxed stuff, scenery or things that weren't fully out at launch: Legiones Imperialis had (from what i can see) 5 kits at launch. Necromunda 2017 had 2. Aeronautica Imperialis launched with 5. Titanicus launched with with 2. 5 For the new Horus Heresy, outside weapon upgrade parts. Those games would have also taken years of work. Did you say the same thing about those too at their launches? That they were just reluctant to do them in the first place and gave the smallest budgets possible because they just couldn't be bothered?

Just that TOW got a launch novel, they're remastering moulds or making newer ones, they're going through the archives to find things to release, that they're adding in extra bits and sculpts when they didn't have to, and that they're even going back to metal miniatures shows this isn't just some small thing. Don't judge it by comparing it to 40K or AoS and how much they get.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Saying this sort of thing really come across as simplifying it far too much just to find something to try to disregard the whole thing, saying "Five years for eight models" as if the only thing that matters is the number of new models released and that's the entirety of this project.

It's not a big mainline game, it's specialist. Not counting re-released/reboxed stuff, scenery or things that weren't fully out at launch: Legiones Imperialis had (from what i can see) 5 kits at launch. Necromunda 2017 had 2. Aeronautica Imperialis launched with 5. Titanicus launched with with 2. 5 For the new Horus Heresy, outside weapon upgrade parts. Those games would have also taken years of work. Did you say the same thing about those too at their launches? That they were just reluctant to do them in the first place and gave the smallest budgets possible because they just couldn't be bothered?

Just that TOW got a launch novel, they're remastering moulds or making newer ones, they're going through the archives to find things to release, that they're adding in extra bits and sculpts when they didn't have to, and that they're even going back to metal miniatures shows this isn't just some small thing. Don't judge it by comparing it to 40K or AoS and how much they get.

I'm just noting the reality. There's plenty of special pleading in the other direction's favor. But it remains a very strong argument, no matter how many sprues Aeronautica Imperialis was worth at launch. I'm not a GW stan or a hater, so it's not a big surprise to me that they would pursue maximum profit for minimal effort, that should always be a realist's assumption when it comes to them.

 frankelee wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Saying this sort of thing really come across as simplifying it far too much just to find something to try to disregard the whole thing, saying "Five years for eight models" as if the only thing that matters is the number of new models released and that's the entirety of this project.

It's not a big mainline game, it's specialist. Not counting re-released/reboxed stuff, scenery or things that weren't fully out at launch: Legiones Imperialis had (from what i can see) 5 kits at launch. Necromunda 2017 had 2. Aeronautica Imperialis launched with 5. Titanicus launched with with 2. 5 For the new Horus Heresy, outside weapon upgrade parts. Those games would have also taken years of work. Did you say the same thing about those too at their launches? That they were just reluctant to do them in the first place and gave the smallest budgets possible because they just couldn't be bothered?

Just that TOW got a launch novel, they're remastering moulds or making newer ones, they're going through the archives to find things to release, that they're adding in extra bits and sculpts when they didn't have to, and that they're even going back to metal miniatures shows this isn't just some small thing. Don't judge it by comparing it to 40K or AoS and how much they get.

I'm just noting the reality. There's plenty of special pleading in the other direction's favor. But it remains a very strong argument, no matter how many sprues Aeronautica Imperialis was worth at launch. I'm not a GW stan or a hater, so it's not a big surprise to me that they would pursue maximum profit for minimal effort, that should always be a realist's assumption when it comes to them.

No, it is not a "very strong argument" at all. Trying to dismiss it with "Only 8 kits at launch!" despite just that alone already seeming to be a bigger launch than the specialist games released over the past few years, even their latest ones of the new Horus Heresy edition, and Legions Imperialis. Somehow a bigger release than either of those (even without all the other stuff they're doing for it) suggests to you that they had basically the smallest budget possible and didn't even really want to do the game in the first place.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
It's not a big mainline game, it's specialist.

I disagree.

It's a mainline game, or rather, it has joined the mainline games.

It now sits with its own menu option alongside Age of Sigmar, 40k, LOTR and Horus Heresy. It's not under "Other Games", where everything from LI to WarCry to Blood Bowl to Necromunda to Kill-Team is kept.

 Overread wrote:

Grail Seeker wrote:
I hope that isn't the case. Bretonnia is a niche army. Empire being released sooner rather than later will be better for the game.

I suspect some of the new blood getting into the game with Brets will have buyers remorse as it is.

I mean a niche army that's basically your classic knights in shining armour army. You can't really get more classic fantasy humans without adding a Round Table and Robbin Hood

Well, Bretonnia feels... narrow. Empire has a lot of playstyles built into it, but Bretonnia leans really hard on one. You can kind of do infantry (and the foot knights help in that regard) but historically, if you're going to do that you're better off just running an Empire army. And now an exiles army.

I personally wouldn't mind seeing High Elves and Warriors of Chaos at the end of the queue. As far as a Border Princes campaign goes, they're... a bit of a stretch. The Empire, Orcs and Goblins, Dwarfs and Beastmen have a direct presence, Bretonnia has settlements and interests, Tomb Kings have a definite interest and conquest plans, and wood elves have some forests they care about, but large bands of chaos warriors this far south when chaos is at a low ebb feels very strange indeed. (An empire cultist army of infamy feels more appropriate). High elves... I'm not even sure what they do with their colonies and outposts- are they gathering tribute or... what? Trading with dwarves still, or have issues with that relationship already come and gone?

When they jump to another location and +/- a couple decades, those two factions could well feel more appropriate.

Presumably the Bret and Empire-specific books have sub-lists that represent some of the various Border Prince factions?

 Dysartes wrote:

No One Important wrote:

 Overread wrote:

Grail Seeker wrote:
I hope that isn't the case. Bretonnia is a niche army. Empire being released sooner rather than later will be better for the game.

I suspect some of the new blood getting into the game with Brets will have buyers remorse as it is.

I mean a niche army that's basically your classic knights in shining armour army. You can't really get more classic fantasy humans without adding a Round Table and Robbin Hood

You mean Bertrand le Brigand & the Bowmen of Bergerac? They better come back.

Shame it's the wrong period in time for them - pretty sure they were meant to be active in the Old World as it came to its end.

Yeah, shame because the models and character concepts were a lot of fun.

Hugo le Petit and Gui le Gros were cool.

 McDougall Designs wrote:
I would like to join however many other people invoicing my happiness for the fact that the previously unreleased head for the tomb Kings bone Giant will be released

But... but... how could you take something other than the CHIQITA BANANA HEAD!?

there are 7 factions left
if there are double releases, 1 need to be a lone and Empire being at civil war with Sigmar and Ulric priests having models, as well having old models for 2 knightly orders for 2 sides it makes the most sense doing them last

something interesting came up in the local forum from one of the TOs of the bigger 40k events, as that they were told by GW that the game won't be ready for tournaments until August/September

It astonishes me that TOW's 2 army boxes, which are essentially re-releases of sprues that were first produced decades ago, are already showing as 'temporarily out of stock online'. Either they only had a handful ready to go, or there really is a big demand for these ancient models.

I loved the Empire range in previous editions, and have a big box of unbuild Skaven (who, sadly, aren't reappearing in TOW), but I won't be buying into it again. I think this game should have been re-done in a smaller scale, so that people could field seriously massive armies.

 frankelee wrote:

I'm just noting the reality. There's plenty of special pleading in the other direction's favor. But it remains a very strong argument, no matter how many sprues Aeronautica Imperialis was worth at launch. I'm not a GW stan or a hater, so it's not a big surprise to me that they would pursue maximum profit for minimal effort, that should always be a realist's assumption when it comes to them.

you just are flat out wrong as has been pointed out to you multiple ties. And same thing has been said for years.

One can only conclude you intentionally ignore all the proofs from years just to keep saying conspiracy theory again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Snord wrote:
It astonishes me that TOW's 2 army boxes, which are essentially re-releases of sprues that were first produced decades ago, are already showing as 'temporarily out of stock online'. Either they only had a handful ready to go, or there really is a big demand for these ancient models.

GW has supply issues constantly. Producing sprues takes time. Having re-release doesn't fasten it that much as it saves just mould design time.

In fact the old sprues are casting time INEFFICIENT(more different sprues and less models per sprue=more casting needed). It takes longer time to produce 1000 old style box than 1000 box with new more efficient sprue design.

GW had 0 bretonnia/tk sprue in stock before they started to cast them for this release

 Thargrim wrote:

Tyel wrote:
I can sort of see Empire being last on the argument that they are - arguably - the faction that needs the most change for the era. And arguably has the most scope for expanding for the setting if you want to put emphasis on the 3 Emperors situation.

Maybe its a lack of imagination - but High Elves for instance feel kind of complete. You could do new versions of certain models - but nothing is obviously missing from the range. (Bring back both versions of the Tiranoc Chariot you cowards.)

I do feel a bit conflicted. All the effort put into new TK is great. But then you are left with the ancient sculpts for the basic troops. Which feels kind of weird and bad.

Considering the 3 emperors situation I do find it surprising a priest of Taal wasn't included. I do think Talabheim/Talabecland put a ban on the cult of Sigmar during this era. If someone were to do a Talabecland themed army then a warrior priest of Sigmar/Ulric doesn't make much sense.

Empire will likely get a plastic captain/general on demigryph, similar to the Bretonnian lord on pegasus. Empire already had a pretty solid range of models, aside from the knights which haven't aged quite as well as the Bretonnian ones. And a plastic warrior priest kit wouldn't hurt as i'm not too keen on them bringing back the metal ones. They're probably one of the easiest of the armies to put back into production, with Wood Elves needing the most work.

Talabheim does have very strong links with Ulric as well - Ar Ulric even relocated there between 1360 and 1547. However I really hope they do all the major priests - Warrior Priests of Taal, Myrmidia, Verena and Priests of Morr and Shallya could all be really good models and have interesting rules

 Snord wrote:
It astonishes me that TOW's 2 army boxes, which are essentially re-releases of sprues that were first produced decades ago, are already showing as 'temporarily out of stock online'. Either they only had a handful ready to go, or there really is a big demand for these ancient models.

I loved the Empire range in previous editions, and have a big box of unbuild Skaven (who, sadly, aren't reappearing in TOW), but I won't be buying into it again. I think this game should have been re-done in a smaller scale, so that people could field seriously massive armies.

I think it bodes really well for the game- GW will have produced enough stock to make it profitable for them and they sold it all quickly. It could show there is a big market for the game and that will be further tested as they bring the rest fo the armies out. Good sales means they can invest more in the game and bring out more plastic kits etc..

If we do get all the armies this year as Dana Howl is suggesting, they might then revisit the armies next year with additional kits and releases. Didn't they do that with Necromunda- go back and release additional kits after the initial gangs were released?

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
No, it is not a "very strong argument" at all. Trying to dismiss it with "Only 8 kits at launch!" despite just that alone already seeming to be a bigger launch than the specialist games released over the past few years, even their latest ones of the new Horus Heresy edition, and Legions Imperialis.

I might have missed something, but aren't 6 of those new kits resin FW stuff? They're not really equivalent to new plastic sprues.

I'd rather forego the characters and have gotten some new sprues for the core units.

That said I'm not really saying WHFB is no effort or even low effort as a whole... it just doesn't seem like how-ever-many-years-they've-been-working-on it worth of effort More like it's been on the backburner for much of that.

Voss wrote:
...large bands of chaos warriors this far south when chaos is at a low ebb feels very strange indeed.

On that part, the old fluff places a large Chaos incursion into Nehekhara during or right after the current Border Princes setting. Even in the past it was considered quite possible to take a fleet of ships to that part of the world.

I wouldn't think about the bs explanation for why some factions aren't in the game too much. GW didn't and they'll just gloss over it whenever it gets in the way.

Eumerin wrote:

 McDougall Designs wrote:
I would like to join however many other people invoicing my happiness for the fact that the previously unreleased head for the tomb Kings bone Giant will be released

But... but... how could you take something other than the CHIQITA BANANA HEAD!?

While it's nice to have options I personally don't care whether there's another head in there or not. I like the bare one just fine. Mostly I'm interested in whether the Bone Giant remains in metal or is ported over to resin. Not sure if the article answers that. In metal it's not the nicest model to handle on account of the weight of the chest.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I might have missed something, but aren't 6 of those new kits resin FW stuff? They're not really equivalent to new plastic sprues.

I've just taken a quick look at the online store for TOW, and my count on new models "available" at this time looks like this:

Plastic
Duke/Baron on Royal Pegasus
BSB on Royal Pegasus
TK Character on Necrolith Bone Dragon

Resin
Handmaiden of the Lady
Questing Knight Paladin
BSB Mounted and on Foot
Tomb Swarms
TK BSB
TK Tomb King

I have the feeling one of the resin characters might just be an old model I'm unfamiliar with, though. We also know there's more new plastic in the next wave, such as the Foot Knights.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
It's not a big mainline game, it's specialist.

I disagree.

It's a mainline game, or rather, it has joined the mainline games.

It now sits with its own menu option alongside Age of Sigmar, 40k, LOTR and Horus Heresy. It's not under "Other Games", where everything from LI to WarCry to Blood Bowl to Necromunda to Kill-Team is kept.

LOTR and HH are also specialist games.

Both and TOW are literally coming out of the Specialist Games Studio team, rather than the main studio team that handles AOS and 40k.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Some parts of this project really feel like there's a level of thought and care that seems to be missing with quite a few of their releases these days.

Releasing rules for some units without specific models and saying do whatever you like, encouraging conversions and making your own additions, the unreleased lord and also that he includes a helper miniature just because, not just re-releasing a few old models but going through the process of recasting them, even updating them and going beyond just what they were before to add new parts or extra model sculpts or just making them easier to build. Even just that they're using metal again.

So you're complaining about the good stuff we're getting?

ccs wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Some parts of this project really feel like there's a level of thought and care that seems to be missing with quite a few of their releases these days.

Releasing rules for some units without specific models and saying do whatever you like, encouraging conversions and making your own additions, the unreleased lord and also that he includes a helper miniature just because, not just re-releasing a few old models but going through the process of recasting them, even updating them and going beyond just what they were before to add new parts or extra model sculpts or just making them easier to build. Even just that they're using metal again.

So you're complaining about the good stuff we're getting?

That's a wild misreading.