Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors. Pre orders. p.280.

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**Platuan4th**

Scottywan82 wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:
Baragash wrote:
Scottywan82 wrote:
I find it fascinating that this is set before the Siege of Praag, because isn't that also before the existence of the Colleges of Magic? I am kind of excited to see hedge wizards in the Empire.

IIRC Teclis turned up after Magnus had united the Empire, so that probably depends on how static they hold the timeline.

After he united them but before being Emperor. Teclis was at the Siege. He and two other Elven mages joined to help Magnus.

Right, but at that point, Teclis was still recruiting hedge wizards to help. The colleges aren't formed until afterwards when Magnus concedes how helpful the wizards were in defeating Asavar Kul. I imagine the difference will be negligible, but it's neat as a concept. Gives someone more freedom to convert interesting human wizards that don't fit any of the college molds.

Yeah, I was just giving context as to part of why Teclis founded them.

**Tsagualsa**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, it does look a little too much like the Empire we know. He should probably have more armor and less puffy clothing.
I also noticed this :

He should not have a flintlock pistol. I really doubt Imperial fire arms tech is the same as it was 300 years before. It should be a wheellock at most, and he should be a higher ranking soldier to show how uncommon pistols are.

Long arms would probably fine for rank and file though. But again, they wouldn't be flintlocks.

Apparently TOW is going to be set 'decades before the Great War against Chaos' - the first gunnery school in Nuln is said to have been established 'in the century leading up to the GWaC' so it would be pretty much in this epoch that blackpowder weapons would become standardized and quasi-industrialized. I guess Nuln forces will be more blackpowder-heavy; common blackpowder arms should be predominantly matchlocks, with some wheel locks thrown in as particularly well-made examples, and flintlocks or snaplocks should be either top-of-the-line exceptional pieces of art or dwarven work.

**JimmyWolf87**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, it does look a little too much like the Empire we know. He should probably have more armor and less puffy clothing.
I also noticed this :

Spoiler:

He should not have a flintlock pistol. I really doubt Imperial fire arms tech is the same as it was 300 years before. It should be a wheellock at most, and he should be a higher ranking soldier to show how uncommon pistols are.

Long arms would probably fine for rank and file though. But again, they wouldn't be flintlocks.

I don't think pistols are necessarily uncommon at this point. They're not exactly 'rare' for random mercenaries 200 years before The Old World period in Mordheim (which were also flintlocks FWIW); just relatively uncommon compared to other projectiles and somewhat unreliable. You also have to factor in that a lot of this tech comes via Dwarfs so the developments that go into progressing from, say, wheellocks to flintlocks have probably already been done before they ever reach the Empire (if they even took place at all; let's not fall into the trap of assuming all development is directly translatable from our world. Historical 'accuracy' is a bit moot).

That isn't to say that it might not have been nice to see a different aesthetic to distinguish them from the 'modern' Empire troops but this game is designed specifically to tug those nostalgia strings and have you guzzling down the member-berries so I can't really take too much issue with the choice.

**kodos**

we had this discussion before

problem is simple that in 2500, standard issue state troop arms are Matchlocks
if Flintlocks are available, there is no reason for having Matchlocks any more

Wheellock was a different thing, more complicated to manufacture, operate and maintain
hence it co-existed with Matchlocks for a while and even was still present as Flintlocks were common (as it has some advantages)

but than, the Militia (?) on the left is completely designed in 17th century outfit, not just the weapons

**Tsagualsa**

kodos wrote:
we had this discussion before

problem is simple that in 2500, standard issue state troop arms are Matchlocks
if Flintlocks are available, there is no reason for having Matchlocks any more

Wheellock was a different thing, more complicated to manufacture, operate and maintain
hence it co-existed with Matchlocks for a while and even was still present as Flintlocks were common (as it has some advantages)

but than, the Militia (?) on the left is completely designed in 17th century outfit, not just the weapons

It's a bit maddening because other stuff like the fastenings on the clothes are pretty much spot-on, but then you have weird stuff like all ruffled sleeves all the time thrown in, or the nonsensical codpiece on the Zweihander dude

**His Master's Voice**

Yeah, it should probably be matchlocks all round. Dunno if even a wheellock would make much sense, given how complex those were.

**Overread**

It's almost like they don't copy real world styles, fashions and technological developments in a fantasy setting

**JimmyWolf87**

kodos wrote:
we had this discussion before

problem is simple that in 2500, standard issue state troop arms are Matchlocks
if Flintlocks are available, there is no reason for having Matchlocks any more

Wheellock was a different thing, more complicated to manufacture, operate and maintain
hence it co-existed with Matchlocks for a while and even was still present as Flintlocks were common (as it has some advantages)

but than, the Militia (?) on the left is completely designed in 17th century outfit, not just the weapons

Depends which version; I won't pretend to be au fait with gunnery in any respect but I think the 4th-6th Edition era WHF State Troops had flintlocks no? It was only the most recent (and oft-maligned) state-trooper kit that had matchlocks; which, I guess, fit the seemingly 'regressive' visual design scope, along with a lack of boots or teeth but doesn't seem to be where the TOW artwork is going.

**Tsagualsa**

Overread wrote:
It's almost like they don't copy real world styles, fashions and technological developments in a fantasy setting

I'd pay good money if the Empire people were just randomly styled like cowboys from the old west - perhaps that style was en vogue in the Old World before 'Renaissance Landsknecht' became the dominant look, i mean who knows... Just imagine some rawhide dudes in flanell shirts and jeans running about and shouting about Sigmar and Chaos

**JimmyWolf87**

Overread wrote:
It's almost like they don't copy real world styles, fashions and technological developments in a fantasy setting

Absolutely. I'm happy for history to provide inspiration but I certainly don't need a direct transposition of the minutiae of uniform or progression of gear into the Warhammer setting for it to be credible or enjoyable.

**Shuma-Gorath**

Special Character wise, who apart from gods, undead and daemons are actually around during this setting?

Ikit Claw, Aekold Helbrass (other warriors of chaos?) maybe some elves and/or dwarves?

**Tsagualsa**

Shuma-Gorath wrote:
Special Character wise, who apart from gods, undead and daemons are actually around during this setting?

Ikit Claw, Aekold Helbrass (other warriors of chaos?) maybe some elves and/or dwarves?

The Skaven are kind of occupied at that time, as they're in the last decades of their 400-year second civil war, which will culminate in the personal apparition of the Great Horned Rat in the same year the GWaC breaks out.

Anyway, all the Slann that are still alive are obviously around, and the non-divine Elves too, as well as some of the older Dwarves.

**Shuma-Gorath**

Maybe we'll get a pre-walking frame machine Astragoth (One can dream)

**BobtheInquisitor**

Galas wrote:
I don't find playing WHFB in a historical context different than playing MESBG and I love me some MESBG even if I know my easterling army is gonna be defeated in the story or that Sauron is gonna lose and everybody is gonna live happily ever after.

And I have no interest in gaming in a done, dead setting.

Again, it’s great it works for you and many others. But GW is alienating a lot of people who don’t feel the same way towards “historical” gaming.

**Platuan4th**

Shuma-Gorath wrote:
Special Character wise, who apart from gods, undead and daemons are actually around during this setting?

Ikit Claw, Aekold Helbrass (other warriors of chaos?) maybe some elves and/or dwarves?

Ikit-Claw wouldn't have been born yet. Skaven lifespan is only 20-30 years with Grey Seers having an extended life span of 60+, barring constant access to the stuff that kept the council alive and kicking(and even then, I believe the oldest member of the final council was almost 170 according to the Thanquoul novels). Queek DID have some of that, which is why he survived until nearly 40, though his reflexes and strength had started failing him before being killed.

**Tsagualsa**

Platuan4th wrote:
Shuma-Gorath wrote:
Special Character wise, who apart from gods, undead and daemons are actually around during this setting?

Ikit Claw, Aekold Helbrass (other warriors of chaos?) maybe some elves and/or dwarves?

Ikit-Claw wouldn't have been born yet. Skaven lifespan is only 20-30 years with Grey Seers having an extended life span of 60+, barring constant access to the stuff that kept the council alive and kicking(and even then, I believe the oldest member of the final council was almost 170 according to the Thanquoul novels). Queek DID have some of that, which is why he survived until nearly 40, though his reflexes and strength had started failing him before being killed.

Ikit has been on a movie montage style quest to the mysterious lands in the east and learned karate, magic and the secret of prolonging his life by unnatural means over there. Him being alive at that time is also mentioned in the 7th edition army book.

**kodos**

JimmyWolf87 wrote:
Depends which version; I won't pretend to be au fait with gunnery in any respect but I think the 4th-6th Edition era WHF State Troops had flintlocks no? It was only the most recent (and oft-maligned) state-trooper kit that had matchlocks; which, I guess, fit the seemingly 'regressive' visual design scope, along with a lack of boots or teeth but doesn't seem to be where the TOW artwork is going.

the 4th Edition Metal ones had Flintlocks, the 6th Edition Plastic ones Matchlocks
and the 8th Edition ones while being nice to make something for Nordland or other poor provinces, it was more like "make them look poor so that it is clear that those are from the past"

Tsagualsa wrote:
It's a bit maddening because other stuff like the fastenings on the clothes are pretty much spot-on, but then you have weird stuff like all ruffled sleeves all the time thrown in, or the nonsensical codpiece on the Zweihander dude

Fun-Fact, being modeled after a Doppelsöldner the codpiece is a mandatory part of the armour design
it became a part of fashion because people thought it looked cool later on, but was "invented" by the guys who were fighting "singles" and not within a defensive line (a two handed weapon needs space to be effective, so they were fighting outside the formation) and wanted to prevent enemies from hitting the weakspot of the armour between the legs hence a thick wool cover there

**BertBert**

The exact point in time is really secondary to me, as long as we can expect to see new Empire troops. I'll likely end up using some head canon variant of it anyway, in which the End Times will absolutely not happen the way it did.

**Tsagualsa**

kodos wrote:
JimmyWolf87 wrote:
Depends which version; I won't pretend to be au fait with gunnery in any respect but I think the 4th-6th Edition era WHF State Troops had flintlocks no? It was only the most recent (and oft-maligned) state-trooper kit that had matchlocks; which, I guess, fit the seemingly 'regressive' visual design scope, along with a lack of boots or teeth but doesn't seem to be where the TOW artwork is going.

the 4th Edition Metal ones had Flintlocks, the 6th Edition Plastic ones Matchlocks
and the 8th Edition ones while being nice to make something for Nordland or other poor provinces, it was more like "make them look poor so that it is clear that those are from the past"

Tsagualsa wrote:
It's a bit maddening because other stuff like the fastenings on the clothes are pretty much spot-on, but then you have weird stuff like all ruffled sleeves all the time thrown in, or the nonsensical codpiece on the Zweihander dude

Fun-Fact, being modeled after a Doppelsöldner the codpiece is a mandatory part of the armour design
it became a part of fashion because people thought it looked cool later on, but was "invented" by the guys who were fighting "singles" and not within a defensive line (a two handed weapon needs space to be effective, so they were fighting outside the formation) and wanted to prevent enemies from hitting the weakspot of the armour between the legs hence a thick wool cover there

The codpiece was a development that derived from the piece of cloth that was used to cover the 'hole' left between the two pant-hoses back when a 'pair of pants' consisted of two separate tubes that were fastened to the shirt or belt with strings - the codpiece in this picture just looks like a current-time pair of pants with a sock stuffed in. It is nonsensical because it lacks the actual functional aspect of a codpiece, not because it is not part of the look

**Rihgu**

Platuan4th wrote:
Shuma-Gorath wrote:
Special Character wise, who apart from gods, undead and daemons are actually around during this setting?

Ikit Claw, Aekold Helbrass (other warriors of chaos?) maybe some elves and/or dwarves?

Ikit-Claw wouldn't have been born yet. Skaven lifespan is only 20-30 years with Grey Seers having an extended life span of 60+, barring constant access to the stuff that kept the council alive and kicking(and even then, I believe the oldest member of the final council was almost 170 according to the Thanquoul novels). Queek DID have some of that, which is why he survived until nearly 40, though his reflexes and strength had started failing him before being killed.

Ikit Claw is centuries old by the time of the End Times. He was alive when the Red Pox was unleashed by Pestilens upon Bretonnia in the 1800s.

**Tsagualsa**

Rihgu wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:
Shuma-Gorath wrote:
Special Character wise, who apart from gods, undead and daemons are actually around during this setting?

Ikit Claw, Aekold Helbrass (other warriors of chaos?) maybe some elves and/or dwarves?

Ikit-Claw wouldn't have been born yet. Skaven lifespan is only 20-30 years with Grey Seers having an extended life span of 60+, barring constant access to the stuff that kept the council alive and kicking(and even then, I believe the oldest member of the final council was almost 170 according to the Thanquoul novels). Queek DID have some of that, which is why he survived until nearly 40, though his reflexes and strength had started failing him before being killed.

Ikit Claw is centuries old by the time of the End Times. He was alive when the Red Pox was unleashed by Pestilens upon Bretonnia in the 1800s.

By the time of the second Skaven civil war, which coincides with the time period TOW is apparently going to be set in, Ikit was the right-hand man of Morskittar, which made him the second in command of clan Skryre, and as such a major player in the war.

**kodos**

Tsagualsa wrote:

The codpiece was a development that derived from the piece of cloth that was used to cover the 'hole' left between the two pant-hoses back when a 'pair of pants' consisted of two separate tubes that were fastened to the shirt or belt with strings - the codpiece in this picture just looks like a current-time pair of pants with a sock stuffed in. It is nonsensical because it lacks the actual functional aspect of a codpiece, not because it is not part of the look

yes and no, to overstuffed thing like it is seen on the picture was typical for Landsknecht armour as they protected their private parts

Spoiler:

**triplegrim**

Have to say I am relieved to see greatswords, as I have 3×25 of them painted up.

I also do like the fairly moderate fantasy elements. No hordes of pegasi or demigryps, but real hard men.

Do you guys think comp will be lords, heroes, troops, special and rare? And with % or with a number or picks, lik 0-4 special for a 2500 army?

**Tsagualsa**

triplegrim wrote:
Have to say I am relieved to see greatswords, as I have 3×25 of them painted up.

I also do like the fairly moderate fantasy elements. No hordes of pegasi or demigryps, but real hard men.

Do you guys think comp will be lords, heroes, troops, special and rare? And with % or with a number or picks, lik 0-4 special for a 2500 army?

From the way they present all this i have a baseless gut feeling that armies are going to be a lot smaller than armies at the end of WHFB, with rank-and-file infantry blocks being more like one choice among several you can take and not a given baseline for each army. I think it's going to be closer to Warhammer Skirmish than to WHFB in scope.

**Mentlegen324**

Overread wrote:
It's almost like they don't copy real world styles, fashions and technological developments in a fantasy setting

I'm pretty sure there's artwork of events hundreds of years ago with Empire Characters in very similar styles too, so its not like it's something they've suddenly done.

**Carlovonsexron**

Paymaster Games wrote:
spoiler]I am super pumped for the Old World. I am really looking forward to bringing my army back to the table top. I have been painting new units to build up the army.

JUst as a review - GW has stated that all of the armies will playable and GW wants you to use your old models.

Here list of armies of the Old World as we know it
Empire -
Middenhiem/ Cult of Ulric
Marienburg - Will likely be mercenary based. There has been play testing that suffaced that includes Tilean Pikesmen that seems to lend some wieght to this rumor
Reikland - Cult of Sigmar
Talabheim - a mixed army likely including Halflings and Dwarfs
Bretonnia
Wood Elves
Dwarfs
Greenskins
Chaos -
Beastmen
Grand army of Chaos ( Would likely include new models for Valnir the Reaper and Scyla Anfingrimm both died at the Siege of Praag)
Kislev
Cathey
Tomb Kings

Unconfermed but likely a part of the game
Vampire Counts (The Vampire Wars happoned during this period)
Chaos Dwarfs (Their Icons are on the map)
Hobgoblin Khans (Their Icons are on the Map and concept sketches have been released)
High Elves (Their Icons are on the map)
Dark Elves (Large portions of thier army is still on shelves)
Lizardmen (Their whole army is still on the shelves)
Ogre Kingdoms (Their whole army is still on the shelves)
Skaven (Their whole army is still on the shelves)

The only true army that does not have any clues that it may be part of the game is the Dogs of War (Tilean City States). They were very active durring this period, and Leonardo da Miragliano was alive and very active in Tilea and the Empire. As a mercenary general myself this is the one i want to see the most, but i am not going to get my hopes up if Tileans are going to be part of the Marienburg army.
/spoiler]

I'll take Tileans in any form, be they thier own list or just rolled into Marienburg. I've had enough landsknechts for one lifetime already, and am saddned (but not surprised) that the empire's troops are just gonne be rehashes of them.

**herjan1987**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

I might be slow on the assumtion, but these images show us exactly the classic huntsmen an free company militia models? This applies to the bretonnian, tomb kings an orc pictures aswell.

I mean, if we know that an army is rolled out about 1.5 - 2 years ( see sisters of battle ) and we have concept art from Kislev and Cathay, would that be that we are going to see a soft reboot, aka old minis + max 2 or 3 new armies ( 3rd is the rebooted Empire ) at maximum at launch?

**Twilight Pathways**

Am I the only one who feels it's set too close to the End Times? Knowing that it all ends in just a couple of hundred years is a bit of a shame. I know there are reasons for setting it in this time period but it still feels a bit cramped

**Just Tony**

triplegrim wrote:
Have to say I am relieved to see greatswords, as I have 3×25 of them painted up.

I also do like the fairly moderate fantasy elements. No hordes of pegasi or demigryps, but real hard men.

Do you guys think comp will be lords, heroes, troops, special and rare? And with % or with a number or picks, lik 0-4 special for a 2500 army?

If they use percentages to establish comp then I am out immediately. One of the many things that 8th Edition did that sealed me off of keeping up with Games Workshop games completely was percentages along with some of the other piss poor game design choices. If this is essentially eight but without monstrous cavalry, then I'm out.

Also, the last thread we had was locked because of the whole bunch of people nitpicking a bunch of minutiae from outside sources drowning the news thread with complete pendantry. Why are we starting this over again, people?

**Olthannon**

Just Tony wrote:

If they use percentages to establish comp then I am out immediately. One of the many things that 8th Edition did that sealed me off of keeping up with Games Workshop games completely was percentages along with some of the other piss poor game design choices. If this is essentially eight but without monstrous cavalry, then I'm out.

Also, the last thread we had was locked because of the whole bunch of people nitpicking a bunch of minutiae from outside sources drowning the news thread with complete pendantry. Why are we starting this over again, people?

They've said a mix of rules plus some new ones, I get the feeling that 6th edition is the basis, which is excellent.