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Mozzamanx wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Beyond a Made to Order offer to celebrate the release of TOW or whatever, as well as potentially some very specific kits released shortly before The End Times, I don't see them using the existing kits as the basis for The Old Worlds model range. Those old kits do not meet nu-GW's standards for kit design, quality, or even scale.

This is exactly why the previewed Tomb Kings Chariot art did more harm than good in my eyes, because it is very obviously based on the 6th edition kit. It is almost one-to-one in it's details from the design of the front icon, to the side-mounted javelins, to the placement of the bandages and bangles on the crew. This is in stark contrast to how they are presented in both the 8th edition artwork and in TWW2. For example, later incarnations have light barding on the horses and proper yokes.
That the artwork so closely resembles the 6th edition kit suggests to me that it is either going to be a re-release of the old boxed set, or the later design changes are being undone for whatever reason. Either is bad because the floating yokes and naked horses annoy me to no end and I consider the updated designs to be a massive improvement.

I think people vastly overestimate the potential model range this game can reasonably have in the beginning - outside of practical concerns like the number of product codes and so on, one can reasonably conclude that:

- everything that was still in metal is out
- everything that was in finecast is out
- everything that has since been repackaged or renamed and ported to AOS is out

And that is operating on the basis that the game will be in the 'typical' heroic 28mm scale, and not on some divergent scale with square bases. For older sculpts, there is also the possibility of old moulds or masters being lost or thrown away.

On the topic of get-you-by-rulesets, i can't really see how they'd do a ruleset where roundabout 2/3 of the entries are only accessible for old farts, by proxy or on the secondary market, so i do not think that we'll get comprehensive rules for e.g. the complete old Wood Elves range.

I guess that we still haven't got the whole picture about the rule system, and i guess it will be much more removed from 'classic' WHFB than we currently think, for practical and economical reasons.

I know it says 4 Empire factions.
But it is still just one line. That just gives colour schemes and such. Like marines.
They all have the same stuff so won’t be different looks (army composition is where it’s at. Nuln can take more shooty or that kind of thing).

Danny76 wrote:
I know it says 4 Empire factions.
But it is still just one line. That just gives colour schemes and such. Like marines.
They all have the same stuff so won’t be different looks (army composition is where it’s at. Nuln can take more shooty or that kind of thing).

That's pretty likely, you'd have the same body of basic troops, swords, spears, halberds, bow, crossbow, maybe some sort of upgrade or accessory sprue to do some customization for the factions, and then you can add in army selection rules, some faction-specific special troops and more or no access to stuff like blackpowder weapons and so on. Fluffwise the game is set decades before the Great War against Chaos and about 200 years after Mordheim, which is about the same timeframe when imperial gunpowder weapons were professionalized, with the Nuln Gunnery School being founded 'in the century leading up to the Great War against Chaos' so you could have stuff like Nuln forces having rank-and-file muskets and pistols while e.g. Talabecland forces would limit their use to characters and officers.

Danny76 wrote:
I know it says 4 Empire factions.
But it is still just one line. That just gives colour schemes and such. Like marines.
They all have the same stuff so won’t be different looks (army composition is where it’s at. Nuln can take more shooty or that kind of thing).

Another thing to remember that the Empire civil war has a great deal rooted in religious conflict, namely between Sigmar and Ulric. It's also obviously several hundred years before the birth of Karl Franz.

Which means, absolutely every model, weapon, banner and scrap of armour that has even a hint of a comet or the words 'Sigmar' or 'Franz' are inappropriate for the Middenheimers at the very least. I'm not sure if that leaves any kits at all that are actually kosher for them. It would be very much like a Horus Heresy traitors army decked out in aquilas and 'For the Emperor', except this conflict has gone on for centuries and the excuse of just not having got around to it holds no water.

Mozzamanx wrote:

Danny76 wrote:
I know it says 4 Empire factions.
But it is still just one line. That just gives colour schemes and such. Like marines.
They all have the same stuff so won’t be different looks (army composition is where it’s at. Nuln can take more shooty or that kind of thing).

Another thing to remember that the Empire civil war has a great deal rooted in religious conflict, namely between Sigmar and Ulric. It's also obviously several hundred years before the birth of Karl Franz.

Which means, absolutely every model, weapon, banner and scrap of armour that has even a hint of a comet or the words 'Sigmar' or 'Franz' are inappropriate for the Middenheimers at the very least. I'm not sure if that leaves any kits at all that are actually kosher for them. It would be very much like a Horus Heresy traitors army decked out in aquilas and 'For the Emperor', except this conflict has gone on for centuries and the excuse of just not having got around to it holds no water.

Yeah, just like mk6 wasn't common until the end of the Heresy... The gaslighting (and disappointment) will be unreal when this side game finally drops. People will be posting art from old Empire army books saying "seeeeeee, they've always had "Sigmar" written everywhere" and the obligatory "it's just fantasy so there shouldn't be any rules".

So one post detailing the political climate of the Empire at this time has posters already forgetting the post that all old armies will be usable in TOW? And we're already getting into the "BaWwW mY aOs!!!1!" vs. "BaWwW mY wFb!!!!!1!@!" again?

Still a barely there update. I wish they'd confirm something substantive like returning bases, models, and overeat trays for purchase. Even online/special order would be enough of a bone.

Danny76 wrote:
I know it says 4 Empire factions.
But it is still just one line. That just gives colour schemes and such. Like marines.
They all have the same stuff so won’t be different looks (army composition is where it’s at. Nuln can take more shooty or that kind of thing).

Fiddling about with my old Lone wolf Army builder for 6th edition Empire, there are both Cult of Ulric and Artillery train of Nuln style armies Dont you think they will release enough for each of the four emperors for it to be its own thing?

Seemed to me they just tried to lean heavily into the Horus Heresy style historical angle.

They are changing the packaging on Age of Sigmar boxes from the white to the gold/red, wonder if that's in anticipation of dropping Old World kits with different packaging color schemes.

That's a massive stretch if ever i've read one.

Danny76 wrote:
I know it says 4 Empire factions.
But it is still just one line. That just gives colour schemes and such. Like marines.
They all have the same stuff so won’t be different looks (army composition is where it’s at. Nuln can take more shooty or that kind of thing).

They may also go along religon lines - with priests/ templars etc
Cult of Ulric for the Wolf Emperor, Taal for Talabheim, Sigmar for Reikland and Mannan for Marienburg

Danny76 wrote:
I know it says 4 Empire factions.
But it is still just one line. That just gives colour schemes and such. Like marines.
They all have the same stuff so won’t be different looks (army composition is where it’s at. Nuln can take more shooty or that kind of thing).

Exactly. Thats cost efficiency. The kind of thing GW looks for when its launching product lines. Same as how Horus Heresy is primarily based on 18 factions which are mostly built around sharing the same however many core kits, and how Adeptus Titanicus is based on two factions which share the same like 6 kits.

 Just Tony wrote:
So one post detailing the political climate of the Empire at this time has posters already forgetting the post that all old armies will be usable in TOW?

"All old armies will be usable in TOW" will go the way of the legacy army lists that let players use their WHFB armies in Age of Sigmar and the 8e index stuff that became Legends. Which is to say, they will publish rules for it, you will in theory be able to use it, but it will have a finite shelf-life in terms of how long GW will continue to support, balance, and update those rules until it essentially phases itself out because the influx of new players that will sustain the Old World community will have limited/no access to those models and will only be able to buy Middenheim Wolf-Halberdiers and Reikland Elector-Knights instead of Empire State Troops and Imperial Knights. If you have an existing WHFB collection and a local crew of semi-active grognards who held on to their old armies and still get together to play as part of your private wargaming club, you're all set. If you don't even have the corpse of a remaining WHFB community and you rely on pickup games with complete strangers at the local store, then GWs old-army-promise is probably an empty one.

Over the last month I've helped at least 18 people online try to find Warhammer fantasy battle armies so that they could play either and over Edition or old world when it comes out. Don't ever try to get a job as a fortune teller.

I find it fascinating that this is set before the Siege of Praag, because isn't that also before the existence of the Colleges of Magic? I am kind of excited to see hedge wizards in the Empire.

Middenheim, Marienburg and Reikland? Awesome. Going to make getting Mordheim human warbands so much easier. For that reason alone I cant wait.

 Scottywan82 wrote:
I find it fascinating that this is set before the Siege of Praag, because isn't that also before the existence of the Colleges of Magic? I am kind of excited to see hedge wizards in the Empire.

IIRC Teclis turned up after Magnus had united the Empire, so that probably depends on how static they hold the timeline.

Another update that was just a couple of maps and artwork. Until we see models its hard to believe much effort is being put into this. It been what two years now since they first talked about it.

And the talk about the end times happened, the world still blows up, Nobody cares. Everyone I know that still has any interest in Warhammer Fantasy pretends the end times never happened.

 Tamereth wrote:
Another update that was just a couple of maps and artwork. Until we see models its hard to believe much effort is being put into this. It been what two years now since they first talked about it.

And the talk about the end times happened, the world still blows up, Nobody cares. Everyone I know that still has any interest in Warhammer Fantasy pretends the end times never happened.

I doubt GW will drop models until close to launch, from their PoV, why would they give 3rd parties a huge lead time to prepare?

 Tamereth wrote:
Another update that was just a couple of maps and artwork. Until we see models its hard to believe much effort is being put into this. It been what two years now since they first talked about it.

Almost like in the first article, it was explicitly said it was going to be a minimum of three years and that was before Covid impacted the ability to actually do the work. In fact this is the exact quote from that article:

You get the idea – this is a long way off. Years. More than two. Like three or more. Definitely not soon.

Then there was this from an article in July 2021:

It’s going to be quite some time yet as we work on making sure this is the best version of the game we all love. We’ll give you more updates at some point here on Warhammer Community when the time is right.

I get being irritated that there seems to be little progress but people need to remember that this wasn't going to be a quick process by any means.

 Tamereth wrote:
And the talk about the end times happened, the world still blows up, Nobody cares. Everyone I know that still has any interest in Warhammer Fantasy pretends the end times never happened.

I suspect that statement was more to clarify that the overall story isn't changing, which stops speculation over whether revisiting the setting will affect AoS.

Ultimately, there's not really any need to 'ignore' the End Times in order to play games in the Old World, any more than you need to ignore WWII in order to play WWI games. You're simply playing in a different part of the timeline.

 Baragash wrote:

 Scottywan82 wrote:
I find it fascinating that this is set before the Siege of Praag, because isn't that also before the existence of the Colleges of Magic? I am kind of excited to see hedge wizards in the Empire.

IIRC Teclis turned up after Magnus had united the Empire, so that probably depends on how static they hold the timeline.

After he united them but before being Emperor. Teclis was at the Siege. He and two other Elven mages joined to help Magnus.

I wish they'd get to the point and tell us a bit more about what to actually expect as far as the game is concerned beyond "It'll be like 8th!" and "Yes, square bases!". And I do agree that the previews so far seem more like an RPG setting preview than a wargame preview.

In other words: The wrapping is very pretty, but please show us what's inside?

 Gert wrote:
Either GW says nothing and then clickbait channels keep promoting the idea that AoS is dead...

Why would anyone say that? How would a side-game made by the Specialist division lead anyone to believe that the main page-listed Age of Sigmar, with releases previewed for months in advance, with multiple side-games set in AoS, is dead?

Tsagualsa wrote:
- everything that was still in metal is out
- everything that was in finecast is out
- everything that has since been repackaged or renamed and ported to AOS is out

I think that would be a mistake.

Granted, there's less and less of the old Warhammer Fantasy ranges still in circulation (especially in the realms of Elves, Dwarfs and men), but if one has been ported across (say, Witch Elves), I don't see why they couldn't be included in Old World.

And I think they should bring back retired kits, especially ones that are still perfectly fine by modern miniature standards.

They probably don't want to tell you what's inside because its not confirmed yet. They could go "yeah its all rank and file with 60 models to a single unit block" and then next week "actually its 30" then 50, 30, 40, 20, 10 etc....

And that's just infantry blocks and such. There's a lot up in the air for it like as not and its just easier for them to release very little info now and release more concrete info once they are further along. Plus GW wants a lot of marketing hype for this. So they want lots of fresh information hot off the press in the 6 months (likely) run up toward launch.

That way they can tease it out over that period in quick succession in a big build up toward launch.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why would anyone say that? How would a side-game made by the Specialist division lead anyone to believe that the main page-listed Age of Sigmar, with releases previewed for months in advance, with multiple side-games set in AoS, is dead?

People are weird and it's been banded about since ToW got announced. I'm not saying they're right because they aren't, obviously, but people genuinely believe that sort of thing. "GW brought back Fantasy because Age of Sigmar is trash", that kind of nonsense.

 insaniak wrote:

 Tamereth wrote:
And the talk about the end times happened, the world still blows up, Nobody cares. Everyone I know that still has any interest in Warhammer Fantasy pretends the end times never happened.

I suspect that statement was more to clarify that the overall story isn't changing, which stops speculation over whether revisiting the setting will affect AoS.

Ultimately, there's not really any need to 'ignore' the End Times in order to play games in the Old World, any more than you need to ignore WWII in order to play WWI games. You're simply playing in a different part of the timeline.

I don’t know why, but it matters a great deal to me. I enjoyed the Old World, but have struggled to read any novels or assemble any models set in the Old World since it was destroyed. Knowing that it ends, and how it ends, has killed the setting for me. I have no interest in playing “historical Warhammer” games or exploring events that lead to Planet Booms Everybody Dies.


I think the closest way to explain it is…did you ever know anyone who was really excited about the TV show Lost while it was airing? Have they shown any enthusiasm for Lost since it ended?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I think the closest way to explain it is…did you ever know anyone who was really excited about the TV show Lost while it was airing? Have they shown any enthusiasm for Lost since it ended?

I think a TV show that is specifically built around a mystery is a very different kettle of whatever. The whole point of Lost was to find out what the hell was going on, so yes, it's not surprising that everyone lost interest once we found out what the hell was going on.

For a wargame setting, though, the point is just to give you some background to make the battle seem more interesting. And those battles always included some elements of 'historical' Warhammer, with the game over its span including special characters and events from various points in the timeline.

I mean, I do see your point, and it's the same issue that some people have with movie prequels in general... I just don't personally find it an issue. The point is the story, not the destination.

I suppose a better example would be all the Star Wars fans turned off by the sequel trilogy.

In either case, it’s great that you and many others aren’t bothered, but many other are. GW seem to be aware of this, but they also seem to be doubling down rather than trying to reclaim that lost part of the market.

I’m tempted to give my allegiance to Elspeth Magritta VI, Merchant-Lords of Marienburg seem like they would have a lot of Dogs of War and Mannan themed units.

Hopefully this is all a positive step and they are aiming to push a old fantasy to bring in new players.
I do like Empire aesthetics and hope they do push to expand it even if it’s a soft reboot to the setting gameplay and miniature wise.

I want the rank units, and would be very happy if they thought though how to keep that feel. With Age of sigmar being there big flashy fantasy.

But with the discussion they are encouraging I would find it kind of ironic if tomb kings made a big return as the main setting undead. So as not to cross sale to much with AoS.
GW creates a lot of problems for future GW should be a saying. :p
But I would be very sad not to see my vampires return. They can slot so easy into the empire setting with living troops, it would be a bit odd not to at least explore that.

I am super pumped for the Old World. I am really looking forward to bringing my army back to the table top. I have been painting new units to build up the army.

JUst as a review - GW has stated that all of the armies will playable and GW wants you to use your old models.

Here list of armies of the Old World as we know it
Empire -
Middenhiem/ Cult of Ulric
Marienburg - Will likely be mercenary based. There has been play testing that suffaced that includes Tilean Pikesmen that seems to lend some wieght to this rumor
Reikland - Cult of Sigmar
Talabheim - a mixed army likely including Halflings and Dwarfs
Bretonnia
Wood Elves
Dwarfs
Greenskins
Chaos -
Beastmen
Grand army of Chaos ( Would likely include new models for Valnir the Reaper and Scyla Anfingrimm both died at the Siege of Praag)
Kislev
Cathey
Tomb Kings

Unconfermed but likely a part of the game
Vampire Counts (The Vampire Wars happoned during this period)
Chaos Dwarfs (Their Icons are on the map)
Hobgoblin Khans (Their Icons are on the Map and concept sketches have been released)
High Elves (Their Icons are on the map)
Dark Elves (Large portions of thier army is still on shelves)
Lizardmen (Their whole army is still on the shelves)
Ogre Kingdoms (Their whole army is still on the shelves)
Skaven (Their whole army is still on the shelves)

The only true army that does not have any clues that it may be part of the game is the Dogs of War (Tilean City States). They were very active durring this period, and Leonardo da Miragliano was alive and very active in Tilea and the Empire. As a mercenary general myself this is the one i want to see the most, but i am not going to get my hopes up if Tileans are going to be part of the Marienburg army.