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Goose LeChance wrote:
Because it should look like a medieval head ornament sculpted by a blacksmith, instead of a cute Pixar dragon from someone's DeviantArt page.

And just what should they look like then, exactly? Because trying to find some examples, it's difficult to find any that aren't just modern day fantasy interpretations, but the pieces of artwork I've found from the time period and what appear to be a few photos of helmet crests (and just decorated helmets in general from then) certainly aren't some realistic super detailed highly elaborate style and actually appear quite cartoony.

For example: https://www.pinterest.com/mothemelusine/medieval-heraldic-helmet-crests/

Those Bretonnian helmet crests don't seem out of place to me.

Goose LeChance wrote:
Because it should look like a medieval head ornament sculpted by a blacksmith, instead of a cute Pixar dragon from someone's DeviantArt page.

C'mon, GW's gotta compete with ASOIAF's aesthetic or even their own video games. The audience isn't 12 years old.

Yeah, the swords are good, the axe is kind of big and the TK weapons are ridiculous.

The Crest is an ornamental piece of art, not a gigantic chunk of iron. The blacksmith wouldn't be the one doing the crest, it would be added on by an artisan after the fact.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Goose LeChance wrote:
Because it should look like a medieval head ornament sculpted by a blacksmith, instead of a cute Pixar dragon from someone's DeviantArt page.

And just what do those look like, exactly? Because trying to find some examples, it's difficult to find any - plenty of modern day things that show a fantasy style, but the pieces of artwork I've found from the time period and what appear to be a few photos of helmet crests (and just decorated helmets in general from then) certainly aren't some realistic super detailed highly elaborate style and actually appear quite cartoony.

These helmet ornaments were rarely sculpted by blacksmiths, they were usually made of cloth, wood, actual animal parts and materials like gipsum or even bread dough. Also, they were generally not worn into battle, but used for jousting or purely ceremonial purposes. Their heraldic use, e.g. in pictures, books and rolls of heraldry, was much more important than their actual use as an article of armour, because they served to distinguish between people that bore the same device in their shields, e.g. different sons from the same family branch.

 Just Tony wrote:

Goose LeChance wrote:
Because it should look like a medieval head ornament sculpted by a blacksmith, instead of a cute Pixar dragon from someone's DeviantArt page.

C'mon, GW's gotta compete with ASOIAF's aesthetic or even their own video games. The audience isn't 12 years old.

Yeah, the swords are good, the axe is kind of big and the TK weapons are ridiculous.

The Crest is an ornamental piece of art, not a gigantic chunk of iron. The blacksmith wouldn't be the one doing the crest, it would be added on by an artisan after the fact.

My bad, so it's the artisan browsing tumblr at 3 AM for cute dragon pics, not the blacksmith.

Goose LeChance wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

Goose LeChance wrote:
Because it should look like a medieval head ornament sculpted by a blacksmith, instead of a cute Pixar dragon from someone's DeviantArt page.

C'mon, GW's gotta compete with ASOIAF's aesthetic or even their own video games. The audience isn't 12 years old.

Yeah, the swords are good, the axe is kind of big and the TK weapons are ridiculous.

The Crest is an ornamental piece of art, not a gigantic chunk of iron. The blacksmith wouldn't be the one doing the crest, it would be added on by an artisan after the fact.

My bad, so it's the artisan browsing tumblr at 3 AM for cute dragon pics, not the blacksmith.

If you look up some actual artwork and photos of crests from the time period rather than just assuming you know how they should look and you'll see that they weren't how you're suggesting.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Goose LeChance wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

Goose LeChance wrote:
Because it should look like a medieval head ornament sculpted by a blacksmith, instead of a cute Pixar dragon from someone's DeviantArt page.

C'mon, GW's gotta compete with ASOIAF's aesthetic or even their own video games. The audience isn't 12 years old.

Yeah, the swords are good, the axe is kind of big and the TK weapons are ridiculous.

The Crest is an ornamental piece of art, not a gigantic chunk of iron. The blacksmith wouldn't be the one doing the crest, it would be added on by an artisan after the fact.

My bad, so it's the artisan browsing tumblr at 3 AM for cute dragon pics, not the blacksmith.

If you look up some actual artwork and photos of crests from the time period rather than just assuming you know how they should look and you'll see that they weren't how you're suggesting.

Also take care not to look at 17th or 18th century paintings depicting what they'd imagine the 'middle ages' to look like, that's another problem right there

 Sotahullu wrote:
Did... did people really think there wouldn't be any plastic releases?

Just surprised that two of the less popular armies would be among the first to get kits, that's all.


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Goose LeChance wrote:
Because it should look like a medieval head ornament sculpted by a blacksmith....

Ah... medieval helmet crests, especially crests that size, were not steel or iron. They'd be too heavy to wear. For something that size, wood and leather and cloth are the order of the day.

 Vulcan wrote:

 Sotahullu wrote:
Did... did people really think there wouldn't be any plastic releases?

Just surprised that two of the less popular armies would be among the first to get kits, that's all.

Maybe GW think it's an opportunity to kickstart two new ranges that were completely discontinued when they moved to AoS?

 Vulcan wrote:

 Sotahullu wrote:
Did... did people really think there wouldn't be any plastic releases?

Just surprised that two of the less popular armies would be among the first to get kits, that's all.

It's going to be rather interesting to see the success/failure of this game system.

Bretonnia/Tomb Kings were unpopular back in WHFB hence why they didn't make the jump to AoS like the more popular factions did in some form, I think that starting with these two is just to placate the vocal minority that dredge twitter. Should have launched Dwarves vs Greenskins.

Unless they have some form of alternate activations or copy Conquest's activation system, I don't see this game succeeding, the lore isn't enough to keep it afloat, and the Total War franchise is keeping this period alive well enough.

Will be pleasantly surprised if it succeeds, but there's no good base to build off of like there was with Horus Heresy. HH for example built upon 40k 7th edition, which had good core rules, but the excessive bloat and free detachments/broken psychic phase really soured the crowd on 7th. What edition of WHFB was successful enough to build upon? When LotR came out it usurped WHFB in sales and became the #2 GW game. from 5th-8th the game kept scale creeping, reducing points (1.5pt skaven slaves) in a 3k point standard list, it's not manageable.

Really hope we get some rules teases sooner rather than later for The Old World to put my mind at ease.

 infinite_array wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

 Sotahullu wrote:
Did... did people really think there wouldn't be any plastic releases?

Just surprised that two of the less popular armies would be among the first to get kits, that's all.

Maybe GW think it's an opportunity to kickstart two new ranges that were completely discontinued when they moved to AoS?

When TOW fails they can port the models over to AoS since they'll probably fit right in

While I'm not going to join the bandwagon of dragon doubters (well, there's only one so far, but plural just sounds better ), I will say that even with artistic license on the exact shape I would have expected a longer snout to go with the serpentine design that is the majority of Warhammer dragons.

Maybe it's not a dragon but a sea serpent? Or a rarely seen bird dragon? There's bound to be a larger number of crests on the sprue, so GW needs an equal number of different designs. Maybe a more traditional Warhammer dragon is among those.

 infinite_array wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

 Sotahullu wrote:
Did... did people really think there wouldn't be any plastic releases?

Just surprised that two of the less popular armies would be among the first to get kits, that's all.

Maybe GW think it's an opportunity to kickstart two new ranges that were completely discontinued when they moved to AoS?

I wouldn't read too much into it. It's not that you can't come up with sensible reasons for why GW might have an interest in leading with two discontinued ranges for their big nostalgia trip. It's just when you're a Bretonnia fan, or Tomb Kings, or previously Sisters of Battle, you know exactly what to expect from GW.

Goose LeChance wrote:
Because it should look like a medieval head ornament sculpted by a blacksmith, instead of a cute Pixar dragon from someone's DeviantArt page.

C'mon, GW's gotta compete with ASOIAF's aesthetic or even their own video games. The audience isn't 12 years old.

It probably shouldn't really.

That sort of head-dress wouldn't be 'sculpted by a blacksmith' at all. It'd probably be made of leather, wood or even cloth (Teutonic helm-wings were paper mache....) and would only actually be used in tourneys where there's a whole element of theatre added to the mix. Bretonnians just have them in real battles because, you know, fantasy. If you think that dragon looks silly then I'd suggest looking at more medieval art. It's bonkers.

JimmyWolf87 wrote:
If you think that dragon looks silly then I'd suggest looking at more medieval art. It's bonkers.

Also: lots and lots of genitalia, at and in the most unlikely places.

I've seen plenty of medieval art I can tell the difference between a Disney cartoon and medieval art

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 RustyNumber wrote:
^ The Total Warhammer games should be providing an absolute fecktonne of interest from new players. It's still crazy how WFB was killed off just before the best possible adaptation of the world (using an existing IP) was getting rolling. All time concurrent peak players is 100k+ for the third game, the install base is huge.

Assuming of course that, a majority of those computer games players aren't the old WFB players getting their fix because GW killed their game. Just a thought.

A pitiful amount of in silico players would ever consider playing the game in vivo.

a massive number of modern 40k players came in thanks to Dawn Of War, so I think you might be underestimating the draw

Goose LeChance wrote:
I've seen plenty of medieval art I can tell the difference between a Disney cartoon and medieval art

Again, look at some photos of medieval helmet crests or even just decorated helmet designs and you'll see that the Bretonnia stuff being a little silly and cartoony isn't out of place.

Goose LeChance wrote:
I've seen plenty of medieval art I can tell the difference between a Disney cartoon and medieval art

That's nice. Fairly useless in this scenario as that crest isn't purporting to be either of those things, but still.

It's definitely not may favourite of the 3 and I'd probably have liked it toned down a little but in the grand scheme of things; meh. Slightly smaller 'nose' or the mouth thinning a bit and it's grand.

I just feel sorry for the poor bugger whose knightly ancestor killed a Razorgor.

 infinite_array wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

 Sotahullu wrote:
Did... did people really think there wouldn't be any plastic releases?

Just surprised that two of the less popular armies would be among the first to get kits, that's all.

Maybe GW think it's an opportunity to kickstart two new ranges that were completely discontinued when they moved to AoS?

It´s just a reminder from GW which factions got shot behind the shed with no remorse back in the day. Still have my TK but I moved on to 9th Age. Nice try GW although I will never come back.


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Cypher226 wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 RustyNumber wrote:
^ The Total Warhammer games should be providing an absolute fecktonne of interest from new players. It's still crazy how WFB was killed off just before the best possible adaptation of the world (using an existing IP) was getting rolling. All time concurrent peak players is 100k+ for the third game, the install base is huge.

Assuming of course that, a majority of those computer games players aren't the old WFB players getting their fix because GW killed their game. Just a thought.

A pitiful amount of in silico players would ever consider playing the game in vivo.

a massive number of modern 40k players came in thanks to Dawn Of War, so I think you might be underestimating the draw

Building 30 Space Marines is different from building a WHFB army. 30 models in the Old World are often only 1.5 units.

Goose LeChance wrote:

 infinite_array wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

 Sotahullu wrote:
Did... did people really think there wouldn't be any plastic releases?

Just surprised that two of the less popular armies would be among the first to get kits, that's all.

Maybe GW think it's an opportunity to kickstart two new ranges that were completely discontinued when they moved to AoS?

When TOW fails they can port the models over to AoS since they'll probably fit right in

Sweet Asuryan, the presumption here...

Chaos Dwarf Trailer just dropped for TW3, which is somewhat topical to this discussion.

I posted it in the video games TW3 thread.

“Building 30 Space Marines is different from building a WHFB army. 30 models in the Old World are often only 1.5 units.”

Towards the end of whfb 30 infantry could have easily been 1.0 units. In 6th and 7th, I remember 20 being a popular infantry block size and some 16 man blocks as well. Curious what unit size the new rules will reward since that will drive what people field.

I’m also curious how they will structure starting sets. If they go $300 plus and/or stingy smaller starters…We’ll see

Vulcan wrote:Ah... medieval helmet crests, especially crests that size, were not steel or iron. They'd be too heavy to wear. For something that size, wood and leather and cloth are the order of the day.

Tell me you're a fantasy gamer without telling me you're a fantasy gamer. Iron? Steel? It's a bit heavier than balsawood and foamcore, right...?



"Ow me back" says Korhil.

 Vermis wrote:

Vulcan wrote:Ah... medieval helmet crests, especially crests that size, were not steel or iron. They'd be too heavy to wear. For something that size, wood and leather and cloth are the order of the day.

Tell me you're a fantasy gamer without telling me you're a fantasy gamer. Iron? Steel? It's a bit heavier than balsawood and foamcore, right...?



"Ow me back" says Korhil.

Nah he is an Elf - its Ithilmar

 infinite_array wrote:
Maybe GW think it's an opportunity to kickstart two new ranges that were completely discontinued when they moved to AoS?

I think they just want to cover bases AoS doesn't. They do seem to be a touch nervous about the flat earth narrative of AoS and WFB being mutually exclusive.

Johanxp wrote:
With ToW we'll have a bad ruleset, terribly expensive miniatures and, worse, a lot of minor (but better) games will probably disappear. This is what Tow will bring.

You might have nothing to worry about

Goose LeChance wrote:

Johanxp wrote:
With ToW we'll have a bad ruleset, terribly expensive miniatures and, worse, a lot of minor (but better) games will probably disappear. This is what Tow will bring.

You might have nothing to worry about

The bretonnia and khemri preview looks great imo. I hope the ruleset may match them.

I really enjoyed Warhammer Fantasy 5-7th editions. Played a ton of 6th edition.

I've long regretted not buying the plastic Brettonian Knights kit.

Unfortunately, I'm just not interested anymore. The chance that the rules are better than 6th edition is basically zero, and those rules weren't without their obvious warts.

After moving over to a game with pre-assembled minis (ASOIAF), I've found GWs modern monopose miniatures a huge pain to assemble. I have very limited hobby time, and spending it cleaning the mold lines off a four piece infantry guy with exactly one pose and zero options just isn't fun.

The rules won't be better. Games Workshop make me feel poorly treated as a fan over and over. It will be wildly expensive. Assembly will be a chore. There just isn't much this game has going for it outside of nostalgia.

If this were any other company and all they had to show after 3 years was a couple of renders...

I hope it is everything everyone wants it to be. But I think it will end up disappointing.

Sincerely hope it is awesome. I just don't see many reasons to hope given everything we know about GW.

I won't weigh in any more here so that I don't drag down the mood.

 Gallahad wrote:
I really enjoyed Warhammer Fantasy 5-7th editions. Played a ton of 6th edition.

I've long regretted not buying the plastic Brettonian Knights kit.

Unfortunately, I'm just not interested anymore. The chance that the rules are better than 6th edition is basically zero, and those rules weren't without their obvious warts.

After moving over to a game with pre-assembled minis (ASOIAF), I've found GWs modern monopose miniatures a huge pain to assemble. I have very limited hobby time, and spending it cleaning the mold lines off a four piece infantry guy with exactly one pose and zero options just isn't fun.

The rules won't be better. Games Workshop make me feel poorly treated as a fan over and over. It will be wildly expensive. Assembly will be a chore. There just isn't much this game has going for it outside of nostalgia.

If this were any other company and all they had to show after 3 years was a couple of renders...

I hope it is everything everyone wants it to be. But I think it will end up disappointing.

Sincerely hope it is awesome. I just don't see many reasons to hope given everything we know about GW.

I won't weigh in any more here so that I don't drag down the mood.

All of this just sounds like you're not in their target demographic anymore.

the TK pieces shown are incrediblem but the brettonia ones are a bit bland. Almos seems like they were taken out of the old knight kit. Still, really exciting news.

I am really surprised by them being plastic, especially with the recent Horus Heresy Assault Marine arms being resin.