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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:


It really isn’t. It’s harder to work with, less fun to paint and repaint and repaint, heavier to carry, and much harder to convert. Finecast was prone to miscasts, but that’s not the customer’s problem when a quick phone call to customer service will get a replacement sent out right away. By the third or fourth replacement you will have enough perfectly cast parts to build a flawless mini—and have tons of bits left over for conversion work. Sure beats a model that needs to be drilled and pinned to keep his arms.

Bought the Finecast for the Farseer & Warlocks, and omg the clean up job was such a horrible experience I swore never to repeat. Metal still feels like a relic of the 90s, but at least you had to go out of your way to actually break the model whereas Finecast is so damn fragile.

I do agree about conversions, though, as a handsaw is a must!

 GreycapTheUnwise wrote:
Honestly I'm mixed on the Grand Cathay stuff, they're technically well-designed and I do like the artillery and balloons a lot, but they do seem a bit too...I dunno, "heroic" for Warhammer. Like compared to the Bretonnians and Empire, they seem very sanitized and clean and a bit "MMO" for my tastes; no poorly-equipped peasant troops or anything like that (doubly weird for the Ming China inspired faction). It almost smacks of wanting to appease Chinese investors who won't have their proxy-faction be remotely negatively-represented, somehow.

Cathay's army in Total Warhammer had peasant troops (with melee and archery versions)

I guess as pointed out by another poster, it wouldn't make much sense for peasants to be in the army in WtOW because it's an overseas expedition. (in Total War meanwhile, a lot of the fighting in the story was in Cathay's homelands). Even Ming needed a handwave in the Warhammer Community preview to justify why she's there.

SamusDrake wrote:
GW is still using metal of all materials.

Oh yeah; they should totally be using Finecast resin. It's so crisp, like the moon landing, yo!

Cyel wrote:
Yeah, this beautiful infantry will beautifully do nothing while eaten by dragons and monsters and magic.

My friend's prediction for an average Cathay list: 2 dragons, 2 statues, some cannons. A bit like Kill Team but with huge models.

You'll never see 2 dragons because she's a named character.

The TW game names and features several children of the Dragon Emperor and thus you can in theory have more than one dragon, they will just have to be different named dragons. Though its unlikely we'll see a second for a good long time yet.

There's also the wizard on dragon mount who might not be quite as monstrous, but gives you more tough flying wizard slots.

 Overread wrote:
The TW game names and features several children of the Dragon Emperor and thus you can in theory have more than one dragon, they will just have to be different named dragons. Though its unlikely we'll see a second for a good long time yet.

Once we know more about the Arcane Journal’s contents, we’ll have a better idea if there’s another wave or two or three to come.

I expect we might get second model wave but I wouldn't expect another large dragon model. I'd more expect smaller named or unamed hero models and infantry and such.

Another dragon is more a second edition style release at best in my view.


On the subject of peasants it might be for this first wave GW chose not to include them because typical peasant style army building can involve a big up-front model investment in money and time to build. This can burn people out before they've even got to the table for the first time. So having a new army that's a bit more focused on the elite units in the roster or is currently balanced around not having peasants might be a sensible move to have them work when fewer in number. Then launch huge swarms of cheaper chaff units later when you've already got a strong bed of active players and where the elite approach is still viable for newbies and those who choose too.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Shakalooloo wrote:
So, will the balloon just be immune to melee attacks? No way anyone shy of a giant will be able to reach it.

Yeah I'm not sure how they are going to balance it. It if it were just a spotter that probably would be fine, but a unit that can both attack and is immune to most other units sounds like a bit much.
Maybe it's GW's way to force you to buy dragons and artillery, I dunno.

Same mechanics as the gyrocopter I guess??

 GreycapTheUnwise wrote:
Honestly I'm mixed on the Grand Cathay stuff, they're technically well-designed and I do like the artillery and balloons a lot, but they do seem a bit too...I dunno, "heroic" for Warhammer. Like compared to the Bretonnians and Empire, they seem very sanitized and clean and a bit "MMO" for my tastes; no poorly-equipped peasant troops or anything like that (doubly weird for the Ming China inspired faction). It almost smacks of wanting to appease Chinese investors who won't have their proxy-faction be remotely negatively-represented, somehow.

Their relative 'sanity' has been one of my issues with the faction since they were launched with TWW3. They almost feel like 3e Tau. I'm hoping that with a 2nd edition TOW release or whenever they revisit Cathay that they darken them up a bit, drag in some darker bits from Chinese mythology, add more strife and turmoil within Cathayn society. The only real darkness in the faction right now is the old fluff about Tzeentchian cults and hints that the Dragons are rather more controlling of society than they let on. They're still cool though.

New army time for me. Been hoping for Cathay for a while.


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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Again, I’ll own up to being wrong. I did not believe GW were taking Cathay seriously, but they nailed it with the miniatures.


My one niggle of a complaint is the dragon, which looks consistent with the Elf-ridden dragons…So why does the cannon, sculpted by people who live alongside real dragons, look like a real life Chinese dragon nothing like those Cathay dragons?

It's probably a stylised rendition, like how the Merwyrm rendition on High Elf Seaguard shields looks quite different to the actual beast.

Loving the Cathay release. Not loving it enough to buy it (looks heart broken at closet of shame) but really loving it.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/luce8te0/bring-harmony-to-the-old-world-with-the-armies-of-grand-cathay/

Have they said how they are getting to the Olde Worlde? Ship? Fly? March? Magic?

 Londinium wrote:

 GreycapTheUnwise wrote:
Honestly I'm mixed on the Grand Cathay stuff, they're technically well-designed and I do like the artillery and balloons a lot, but they do seem a bit too...I dunno, "heroic" for Warhammer. Like compared to the Bretonnians and Empire, they seem very sanitized and clean and a bit "MMO" for my tastes; no poorly-equipped peasant troops or anything like that (doubly weird for the Ming China inspired faction). It almost smacks of wanting to appease Chinese investors who won't have their proxy-faction be remotely negatively-represented, somehow.

Their relative 'sanity' has been one of my issues with the faction since they were launched with TWW3. They almost feel like 3e Tau. I'm hoping that with a 2nd edition TOW release or whenever they revisit Cathay that they darken them up a bit, drag in some darker bits from Chinese mythology, add more strife and turmoil within Cathayn society. The only real darkness in the faction right now is the old fluff about Tzeentchian cults and hints that the Dragons are rather more controlling of society than they let on. They're still cool though.

There are darker elements - just like all real and warhammer factions - for instance "Those in other nations may deny it, but all mortals desire control. To be controlled, that is. Why else would they conjure these northern gods that obsess in dominating the very creatures that brought them into being. ~ Yuan Bo (one of the Dragon Lord)

They have the Jade Vampires lurking, the Moon Empress is likely not even a Dragon but some shapeshifter from the moon and has her secret police of Onyx Crowmen.

Its a bit like saying that the High Elves are too nice - plenty of dark undercurrents

 Lord Damocles wrote:

SamusDrake wrote:
GW is still using metal of all materials.

Oh yeah; they should totally be using Finecast resin. It's so crisp, like the moon landing, yo!

Clearly you only read the thread up until that post and then nodded off. We've since had a nice chat about the evils of Finecast...

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

SamusDrake wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:


And metal... well I like metal. GW made me like metal with their terrible failcast. (And other producers with just awesome metal sculpts).

Sigh...yes, twice in one day I must take it back; metal is indeed better than s***cast.

It really isn’t. It’s harder to work with, less fun to paint and repaint and repaint, heavier to carry, and much harder to convert. Finecast was prone to miscasts, but that’s not the customer’s problem when a quick phone call to customer service will get a replacement sent out right away. By the third or fourth replacement you will have enough perfectly cast parts to build a flawless mini—and have tons of bits left over for conversion work. Sure beats a model that needs to be drilled and pinned to keep his arms.

I never bought anything made in 'Finecast'. I never saw a single blister where everything was intact, and with that I SURELY was not going to gamble on anything sight unseen.

For THAT level of premium price? I expect it to be right first time, every time. I do NOT expect to need to take the time and effort to call customer service OVER AND OVER AGAIN to get all the parts I need for a product I paid a premium price for.

Sounds like you just don’t hate working with metal enough.

at least metal minis can hold their own weight and don't deform while standing in the shelf

 kodos wrote:
at least metal minis can hold their own weight and don't deform while standing in the shelf

Yeah, honestly, the reports on the wood elf dragon not beeing able hold his own weight is exaggerated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I find it interresting they dont show centigor or warhawk riders. Really hope its a hint of new plastic versions.

I got a single Finecast model, Blood Angles Astorath, and well that got all of the problems people are talking about, including the model bending over over time because it was to heavy for the scrolls that were supposed to give him a hovering look

there is a reason GW rather bring back models that were released in finecast with metal over getting finecast out again

They show a warhawk rider in metal at the end and mention it - unless they outright say its coming in plastic assume classic models in metal.



And yes Finecast is DEAD

The facebook page posted pictures of the warhawk riders and centigors. They're the older metal miniatures.

I'm happy to see that the centigor chieftain they showed off alongside ghorros warhoof is the same centigor from the beastmen raiders mordheim warband. I have most of the rest of that warband but he never shows up solo on ebay.

 kodos wrote:
I got a single Finecast model, Blood Angles Astorath, and well that got all of the problems people are talking about, including the model bending over over time because it was to heavy for the scrolls that were supposed to give him a hovering look

there is a reason GW rather bring back models that were released in finecast with metal over getting finecast out again

Sod it, I'm going to ask a rookie question and face the ridicule; why not use FW resin instead? Would it mean redesigning the model from scratch?

SamusDrake wrote:

 kodos wrote:
I got a single Finecast model, Blood Angles Astorath, and well that got all of the problems people are talking about, including the model bending over over time because it was to heavy for the scrolls that were supposed to give him a hovering look

there is a reason GW rather bring back models that were released in finecast with metal over getting finecast out again

Sod it, I'm going to ask a rookie question and face the ridicule; why not use FW resin instead? Would it mean redesigning the model from scratch?

Different casting materials perform differently to each other. The big attraction of Finecast to GW was low toxicity and ability to use the same masters as the metal cast models when making the moulds.

So its easy for Gw to just step back and re-tool for metal once more instead of going for forgeworld resin where they might well have to entirely retool from the ground up with new designs to take account for the small differences in casting.

Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooh I see. Thanks for explaining.

It's also why a lot of the kits that are coming out in Forgeworld resin have been redone in some way, either with an entirely new model included in the mix (Carrion) or new details (Casket of Souls, War Wagon). If they need to retool from the ground up anyway because the original masters have been damaged or lost, might as well spend some time addings some touch ups here or there.
(I'm still baffled the War Wagon was Made to Order only despite they obvious effort they put into it)

It might be the War Waggon is set to get one of the few new plastic updates so they didn't want the flood the market with them.

Or perhaps it ate-up the mould quicker so they just did a one-and-done because they couldn't justify the continued mould replacement costs long term

Some models can cause more mould damage than others. I recall in the past Warmachine had a Skorn model that came off market for ages because it would destroy the moulds so fast that replacing them ate into the income of the model too much.

I can believe that, IIRC one of the very early attempts by Citadel at a scenery detailing piece (a metal clump of mushrooms) was such a mold ripper they didn't even bother releasing it.

Personally I love metal miniatures. I used to hate them but now I'm more experienced and adept at pinning (and the use of CA glue activator spray) I've fallen completely for them. There's something really satisfying about the weight of a nice lump of pewter, not to mention that even if you completely mess up a paintjob, stripping them is incredibly easy.

 Overread wrote:

Different casting materials perform differently to each other. The big attraction of Finecast to GW was low toxicity and ability to use the same masters as the metal cast models when making the moulds.

So its easy for Gw to just step back and re-tool for metal once more instead of going for forgeworld resin where they might well have to entirely retool from the ground up with new designs to take account for the small differences in casting.

This isn’t accurate. You’re confusing the mould-making process and the casting process. Metal models are spin cast in round rubber moulds – the metal is poured into a hole in the centre of the mould while the mould is spinning at high speed, inside the casting machine, so that the metal is spread to all parts of the mould. The metal cools quickly, and hardens as it does so, and so can be pulled from the mould within a couple of minutes. Forge World resin models are made by pouring the resin into (usually roughly cube-shaped) silicone mould. The resin cures – hardens – because of a chemical reaction, which takes time.

The moulds for either method can equally well be made from metal master castings of the kind GW would maintain in their mould room archives. You can’t pour metal into that kind of silicone mould, but you can make a silicone mould from a metal master. There are differences in the casting process (there’s no spinning to distribute the resin in a silicone mould, and the air bubbles have to escape upwards, often aided by a vacuum chamber), so small areas might need to be filled or thickened to work well in one kind of mould or the other, and the way in which the master models are attached to sprues, and how the feeds and vents are cut into the moulds, are both a bit different, but this is all well within the normal mould-making process. It most definitely does not require a new design or a new master model designed from scratch.

Finecast models are produced using the spin casting method, so they can be made in the same machines as metal models, and thus the resin needs the property of curing quickly. Finecast models require far more extensive frames around them than metal models, though, so there’s actually quite a lot of re-mastering required from the original metal master castings, arguably more so than adapting those same master castings for casting in Forge World resin.

What is being produced in metal and what is being moved to Forge World resin is more likely just a matter of the volume of material, and the subsequent margin GW can make, in the niche cases for particularly large, thick and heavy models.

The term ‘tooling’ is used exclusively in reference to the kind of injection-moulding used for plastic models.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Sounds like you just don’t hate working with metal enough.

I hate resculpting something that should have been cast properly in the first place way more than I hate working with metal, yes.

Greenfield wrote:

This isn’t accurate. You’re confusing the mould-making process and the casting process. Metal models are spin cast in round rubber moulds – the metal is poured into a hole in the centre of the mould while the mould is spinning at high speed, inside the casting machine, so that the metal is spread to all parts of the mould. The metal cools quickly, and hardens as it does so, and so can be pulled from the mould within a couple of minutes. Forge World resin models are made by pouring the resin into (usually roughly cube-shaped) silicone mould. The resin cures – hardens – because of a chemical reaction, which takes time.

Yes and no, Finecast Resin was specific developed to replace Metal in the Spin Casting process, this is something different from regular PU Resin and the resin why Finecast exists in the first place and why GW can and could easily swap the materials.

And in this case it is easy for them to just replace Finecast with Metal, despite the models never had a metal release, because it is the same casting process instead of using PU Resin