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Great knight, especially like the axe loadout. I hope they'll update the empire knights eventually to match its scale and detail.

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 The Phazer wrote:
Better photos definitely help it. I also think it would benefit a lot from a 360 view. Shame GW don't do those any more.

It does. Just not during preorder week. Or even very soon after that. I guess it’s less of a priority for them now.
Presumably because it makes stereoscopic 3D modelling trivial for people who want to create a 3D print.

Oh, they've started again, I thought they had stopped entirely post website debacle.

Retailer Price List going around with a Jan. 11 release date on it.

Well uhhh, the Arcane Journal contents has been leaked on the Square Based YouTube channel if anyone wants to see.

So that journal looks decidedly 'meh'. The two characters really do not feel all the special or good, the knight templar armies seem...well aweful really. Nuln seems fine, but it's a gunline army so not much fun to play against. Teutogen Guard seem to be the real winners though.

https://youtu.be/gCHWE7OdqsA?si=m9Mp-FAKRm12eVUg

The journal looks way more than "fine"

Empire as a faction have never really appealed to me, but I could see some fun in building and painting an army with like ~1300 points of War Wagons (mounting characters to get over the 1k) and Ogres using the something like the Wargames Atlantic Landsknecht Ogres.

 Baragash wrote:
Empire as a faction have never really appealed to me, but I could see some fun in building and painting an army with like ~1300 points of War Wagons (mounting characters to get over the 1k) and Ogres using the something like the Wargames Atlantic Landsknecht Ogres.

I had exactly the same thought. Lots of wagons and ogres!! the problem is core

Empire Armored Company! Throw in a steam tank, one of those Wizard Party Wagons and a Land Ship for color!

They really need to make new Empire knights. The current models were outdated decades ago when I last player FB. They will look really silly next to this new character.

Perhaps one could use the AOS Cities of Sigmar knights? They have somewhat different aesthetic, but still look empirey. (Though their necks are weird).

You can say that for a LOT (basically all) the old models in Old World. I'm 100% sure that so long as it continues to sell well we will see updates come.

Whilst sales remain its a when not if; but it could be a long wait for some armies. The big risk is that GW starts adding more and more and more factions.
Cathay and Kislev should be added; they got marketed and advertised and people expect them to appear with brand new shiny armies of models.

But after that I really hope they don't add any more and focus purely on updating old armies to new model sculpts.

 Overread wrote:
You can say that for a LOT (basically all) the old models in Old World. I'm 100% sure that so long as it continues to sell well we will see updates come.

Yeah, but here it is just not the design that is outdated, it is the scale. The knight horses are tiny compared to the pistolier horses, which is just wrong and weird.

 Overread wrote:
You can say that for a LOT (basically all) the old models in Old World. I'm 100% sure that so long as it continues to sell well we will see updates come.

Whilst sales remain its a when not if; but it could be a long wait for some armies. The big risk is that GW starts adding more and more and more factions.
Cathay and Kislev should be added; they got marketed and advertised and people expect them to appear with brand new shiny armies of models.

But after that I really hope they don't add any more and focus purely on updating old armies to new model sculpts.

I'll second that. I'm excited to see what they have for Cathay and Kislev but after that I'd love to see some updated models the other Old World ranges. Sadly, at the moment, the only GW models I have purchased or will purchase for use in the Old World are ones that are, so far as GW are concerned, part of the AoS range. Those being various seraphon/ lizardmen kits. If GW are judging the success of the game on sales of Old World only models then it will look like a failure based on my purchases, when I have no real intention of using the models for AoS, only for Old World. I hope they're smart enough to see that people are using their AoS models for Old World and don't can the project based on false information.

I had hoped that they would start with new models for TK and Brets when they released, but sadly that didn't happen and every new army book has been accompanied by only a small number of new models, so I'm compelled to purchase 3rd party or AoS models for the game instead.

I've got most of my 2000 point lizardman army built, I've started painting some saurus and I'm starting my temple guard conversions this week. After I'm done with the army next year, I'll be moving on to tomb kings, but because GW didn't give any real love to the range that will be all 3D prints, except for a few models from my old collection. Hopefully they will get round to releasing some refreshed Old World lines by the time I'm done with the Tomb Kings, otherwise I'll be looking at more 3rd party or AoS models for my next project.

Main problem with the Empire is that the older models not released for TOW aged better than the in-between ones

old metal knights look better than the plastics, old state troops better than the new ones and so on
and while for something like Tomb Kings you could argue with nostalgia, the nostalgic Empire models are the ones before those that were released

Maybe, they will make Finecast models for the Empire.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Maybe, they will make Finecast models for the Empire.

They haven't released new Failcast for quite some time and are phasing it out in most systems. You might be thinking of FW resin, which is something else entirely.

Is really cool to see special rules for the knightly orders. When you think Empire you think of state troops and gunpowder, but the knightly orders are really important in the fluff around the Empire.
I admit I didnt expect them to focus on knights, and would rather have seen some synnergy rules and/or orders for state troop regiments, but this is fun for a regiment of renown.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Maybe, they will make Finecast models for the Empire.

They haven't released new Failcast for quite some time and are phasing it out in most systems. You might be thinking of FW resin, which is something else entirely.

You're right, my mistake.

 Crimson wrote:

 Overread wrote:
You can say that for a LOT (basically all) the old models in Old World. I'm 100% sure that so long as it continues to sell well we will see updates come.

Yeah, but here it is just not the design that is outdated, it is the scale. The knight horses are tiny compared to the pistolier horses, which is just wrong and weird.

They're not tiny. They're horses with a lowered chassis. Just paint them hot pink and add undercarriage neon lights and that'll take care of that problem.

...

The thing with GW bringing back the Fantasy ranges that existed prior to End Times (with all the necessary caveats about AoS-related oddities and made to order nostalgia bait) is that some models are ten years old, others twenty, yet others thirty years old. And you can see the difference. High Elves in the Old World will come to face the same issue High Elves in 8th ed Fantasy had. You have your shiny state of the art Sea Guard right next to the ham-fisted, clown-shoed Spearmen from the last century and it'll look exactly as bad as it sounds.

It's the reason my interest in Old World died with the announcement that GW was going to bring back the sucky Tomb Kings skeletons. It just perpetuates the same old problem. I'm not suddenly going to spend money on models that didn't get me to open my wallet twenty years ago. I had a box of those skeletons in the 90s, purely for conversion purposes. And they sucked even then.

It'll be interesting to see if Old World actually gets some decent investment and new plastic kits once all the factions get their old stuff back. I certainly hope so.

It makes it ironic the one Old World army to get a new unit (Bret foot knights, I don't think there was another) is the one in which it breaks range coherency. Other than that the entire Bret range was from the same release (in terms of plastic units). They definitely should have had a thought about what era they wanted to release and then fill in the gaps that existed (for a particular army, too much to do it across game). For example, if they weren't going to redo the empire knights they should have left out the demigryphs and used the old foot soldiers from 6th. Or just redo the knights to match the rest of the 8th range.

P.s., I'm still waiting for a MTO of 5th Ed Brets, whereupon I will have to remortgage my house.

The game will live or die by sales and nothing will be redone if people stop buying (I haven't because I want the game to be successful and I like some of the older stuff).

3d print all you want but if enough people do it, we will have a dead game again and be back to playing the fan made crap or Kings.

The problem is if something sells, then there's no need to redo. And if it doesn't sell, then there's no interest so why redo it.

You'd have to have a situation where like everything for the Empire sells except the Knoghts for someone to think seriously about remaking them.

100% nostalgia
Creating the very same situation as back in the old days were people argu we must sacrifice our money to GW in hope they answer and redo everything so we can buy it again

While those who want to play use alternatives anyway as a full army is way to expensive and the models even if redone not in their interest

And than there is still the problem that GW might think in different ways, like if everything sells but Knights the conclusion might be people don't like Knights for Empire because it is about Infantry and not cavalry

And we are already in the same situation as back in the old days.
Rules already need an update, everyone using house rules and balance is all over the place giving new players the options to only use half of the army boxes they buy

The whole thing is just to collect models and if you want to really play you are better off with 6th Edi, one of the community rules or kings

 nathan2004 wrote:
The game will live or die by sales and nothing will be redone if people stop buying (I haven't because I want the game to be successful and I like some of the older stuff).

3d print all you want but if enough people do it, we will have a dead game again and be back to playing the fan made crap or Kings.

But the game is still there, no one is taking it from you, it's already in the open, why would you be back to playing the fan made crap? Or maybe the game isn't strong enough to stand on its own? Then why is it the fan made stuff that is crap?

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
The problem is if something sells, then there's no need to redo. And if it doesn't sell, then there's no interest so why redo it.

You'd have to have a situation where like everything for the Empire sells except the Knoghts for someone to think seriously about remaking them.

Actually we have ample proof over the years that old models and armies without updates don't sell well and that modern updates translates into big sales spikes.
I'm sure GW know that Old World is in a bubble right now and riding both a nostalgia train and a "this was taken away and I wasn't able to get it now I can" bubble.

BOTH of those will burst at some point and I suspect it will be as soon as Old World gets new armies with modern models. GW has also released new models alongside old for each of the re-released armies. We can 100% see that GW will follow the same product pattern for all their other games and will steadily update. Old World is just different because it took a long break being on the market and because it was a huge gamble that it could work as a product alongside GW's other brand AoS. Esp when both brands are using models developed under the same brand design structure.

So yeah Old World was a gamble and a risk - but it seems to have worked. Plus GW today has a healthier attitude toward spreading its resources over many games instead of focusing only on the biggest selling product lines.

I think the outlook is positive that we'll see updates. Afterall GW can't maintain a brand on nostalgia alone; they want young, new gamers getting into their games.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
The problem is if something sells, then there's no need to redo. And if it doesn't sell, then there's no interest so why redo it.

You'd have to have a situation where like everything for the Empire sells except the Knoghts for someone to think seriously about remaking them.

Not really. New shiny syndrome is a thing. GW has been resculpting kits since time immemorial and every time they do people go out and buy the resculpted versions of kits they already own like suckers.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
The problem is if something sells, then there's no need to redo. And if it doesn't sell, then there's no interest so why redo it.

You'd have to have a situation where like everything for the Empire sells except the Knoghts for someone to think seriously about remaking them.

Not really. New shiny syndrome is a thing. GW has been resculpting kits since time immemorial and every time they do people go out and buy the resculpted versions of kits they already own like suckers.

Lets face it - over the years GW has pushed improving their sculpting. Whilst you can debate if some directions are the right one or not; GW has always aimed at general improvement.
So yeah new models generally make an aim to improve on the old. Remember when the old Ork Gretchen was almost 1 pose with his gun held across his chest and that was pretty much it. And the ork with bolter might let you repose the arm but it was only up or down at the shoulder.

New customers get the new stuff; old customers rebuy because it looks cool and they can keep their old stuff too and everyone wins

 Overread wrote:

Actually we have ample proof over the years that old models and armies without updates don't sell well and that modern updates translates into big sales spikes.
I'm sure GW know that Old World is in a bubble right now and riding both a nostalgia train and a "this was taken away and I wasn't able to get it now I can" bubble.

BOTH of those will burst at some point and I suspect it will be as soon as Old World gets new armies with modern models. GW has also released new models alongside old for each of the re-released armies. We can 100% see that GW will follow the same product pattern for all their other games and will steadily update. Old World is just different because it took a long break being on the market and because it was a huge gamble that it could work as a product alongside GW's other brand AoS. Esp when both brands are using models developed under the same brand design structure.

So yeah Old World was a gamble and a risk - but it seems to have worked. Plus GW today has a healthier attitude toward spreading its resources over many games instead of focusing only on the biggest selling product lines.

I think the outlook is positive that we'll see updates. Afterall GW can't maintain a brand on nostalgia alone; they want young, new gamers getting into their games.

going with the latest WarCom article, they are fully aware that this is a bubble and don't expect anything after the release

from the article regarding the War Wagon:

Because it’s Made to Order, it guarantees that everyone who orders one will receive it, even if it takes a little while to fulfil every purchase. We feel that this is the best way to ensure that everyone who has ever wanted to own this classic miniature can do just that.

this isn't something about people in future might start an Empire army and want to pick that model up, this is that they expect that everyone who will ever want one will buy it now and no sales after that

Those are the made-to-order specials released alongside new armies. And yes those are 100% bubbled releases. However the important thing is that the core of each army is staying in regular production.

That regular production army is the longer bubble that's just going to steadily grow and wait for new models.


Now I will agree there's a good chances totally brand new gamers are drawn into AoS and I could see that AoS might end up with a higher percentage of younger games VS Old World.

However I still think GW are looking beyond season 1. Edition 2 of Old World is very likely to come with loads of updated models as a core focus along with the brand new armies they teased right at the start. In fact I'd argue if a 2.0 edition comes along and Cathay and/or Kisleve aren't in the boxed set starter then that might damage its sales.

At the 2.0 mark should be where GW goes "ok the old stuff sold well now we invest more into it like any other regular game we make"