Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Cathay’s main antagonists are chaos (and daemons in particular because their Great Wall is far enough north for them to manifest even in these parlous low magic times) and Ogres so a refreshed daemon list and the return of the Ogre Kingdoms could fit in a “Wars of the east” tome. Technically the Skaven have outposts over there, mainly Eshin, but they’re unlikely. There’s also the mythical isle of Nippon to explore too.
Might be a good idea to stick to just three armies and give Cathay plenty of lore space since they don’t have much published outside of TWW yet.

 Overread wrote:
Honestly I think there's value in GW not copying all the armies over in the long term. Making two lines of Skaven, Lizardmen and all isn't just creative death for the team but its also a huge risk that people just gravitate toward one game over the other and proxy in the rest.

Not only will the studio that made shuffling existing ideas into new products an Olympic sport not have a problem with making a slightly different flavour of Skinks for TWO, the whole buy-for-one-system-play-in-another is a rather unconvincing concern, when GW is fine with releasing 70% of a Votann army in Necromunda, or the Solar Auxilla range you can port into an IG force without any real issues.

Great to see these guys made it. I was sceptical because of the shared sprues of the original. I was never very fond of the now returning multipart spearmen, I much prefer these or the old 4:th edition spearmen. I wonder the sprue will look like? There are 29 troopers and 6 command I think.

Looks like a solid release over all.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Honestly I think there's value in GW not copying all the armies over in the long term. Making two lines of Skaven, Lizardmen and all isn't just creative death for the team but its also a huge risk that people just gravitate toward one game over the other and proxy in the rest.

Not only will the studio that made shuffling existing ideas into new products an Olympic sport not have a problem with making a slightly different flavour of Skinks for TWO, the whole buy-for-one-system-play-in-another is a rather unconvincing concern, when GW is fine with releasing 70% of a Votann army in Necromunda, or the Solar Auxilla range you can port into an IG force without any real issues.

Yeah, this is why I think everything will EVENTUALLY come over. They don't care about multiple lines elsehwere and the different skus will be enough to offset. However it's going to be a long trek for Lizards and Ogres as most of their ranges are fully still in use. I don't know if Demons ever come over because they're strictly in the 40k sku area now and NO ONE TOUCHES 40K STUFF!

Soonest would likely be Dark Elves. Skaven I just don't know how much of their stuff is still in AoS after the newest release but it feels like a lot of it. We're probably 1-2 iterations of FEC, SB, and NH away from having everything out of AoS that started in WFB.

Wait, where did this reveal come from?

I really hope one of the MTO figures for High Elves is the older Imrik model. I love that kit and I've always wanted to own one.

 Just Tony wrote:
Wait, where did this reveal come from?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/1jgcyjq6/the-lvo-preview-2025-all-the-reveals/

LVO

I've said it before so why not say it again.

What to integrate Cathay? Reverse Hong Kong!

In the 1300s China was the world's greatest maritime power and the great Admiral Muslim and Eunuch Zheng He/Cheng Ho sailed as far as Africa.

So on Planet Warhammer, have Cathay treasure ships sail to the Olde Worlde and set up a colony, call it Kong Hong. Somewhere between TOW and the End Times it was abandoned as Cathay realized the Olde Worlde had nothing they wanted.

The new lord of Chrace is an elegant if somewhat unexciting model. Thst Ishaya Vess model however is the first new Old World model that i find absolutely hideous.

That new Bray Shaman special character is not bad, but also not something to get really excited about. It's just fine, which is not a place where you want one of the two new models we get for each army to be. The familiar, as has been the case with all the old world familiars so far, is excellent.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I've said it before so why not say it again.

What to integrate Cathay? Reverse Hong Kong!

In the 1300s China was the world's greatest maritime power and the great Admiral Muslim and Eunuch Zheng He/Cheng Ho sailed as far as Africa.

So on Planet Warhammer, have Cathay treasure ships sail to the Olde Worlde and set up a colony, call it Kong Hong. Somewhere between TOW and the End Times it was abandoned as Cathay realized the Olde Worlde had nothing they wanted.

They signed a deal to return it to the control of Marienburg after a fifty year transition period?

It really wouldn't take much for GW to return Dark Elves to the Old World. Most of the army range is buried in Cities of Sigmar and does 't seem terribly popular there.

The stuff in Daughter of Khaine is just the Cauldron kit, the Witch Elves/Sisters of Slaughter kit, and the Doomfire Warlocks/Dark Riders right?

I would be happy to lose the Sisters of Slaughter profile from their Old World roster if they gave us the previous generation of wonderful metal Witch Elves and Cauldron back.

Interested to see what the Made to Order for High Elves will look like, probably the only faction I will be potentially doing MTO items for.

The TOW/AoS separation isnt about model lines, its about IP and brand. Skaven, Seraphon, and VC will not cross back over, the AoS versions are basically shot-for-shot remakes of their WHFB incarnations, whereas if you compare say Cities of Sigmar to Empire, or Lumineth to High Elves, they are thematically and conceptually different.

Amd no, there wasnt any "forseeable future" marketing speak underlying it - the messagibg was pretty damned clear:

"A few of the factions from the previous Warhammer Fantasy Battle game will not feature in Warhammer: The Old World – this is in terms of game rules, model ranges, and the ongoing background narrative....

...If you want to come on this long-term journey with us, the factions in the Forces of Fantasy and Ravening Hordes books are the ones to collect and play – and we want to be pretty clear about that"

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-us/articles/A80kNT0L/old-world-almanack-designer-round-table-on-the-past-and-future-of-a-stone-cold-classic/

INB4 GW surprises us and is actually Vampire Coast or Dogs of War

I got what I needed from the article. It looks like there'll be 20 man Swordmaster units available. I can finally do my blind Eltharion justice by doing his version of the army.

 CMLR wrote:
INB4 GW surprises us and is actually Vampire Coast or Dogs of War

"Arcane Journal: Mercenaries and Raiders" perhaps? I can dig it.

chaos0xomega wrote:
The TOW/AoS separation isnt about model lines, its about IP and brand. Skaven, Seraphon, and VC will not cross back over, the AoS versions are basically shot-for-shot remakes of their WHFB incarnations, whereas if you compare say Cities of Sigmar to Empire, or Lumineth to High Elves, they are thematically and conceptually different.

Amd no, there wasnt any "forseeable future" marketing speak underlying it - the messagibg was pretty damned clear:

"A few of the factions from the previous Warhammer Fantasy Battle game will not feature in Warhammer: The Old World – this is in terms of game rules, model ranges, and the ongoing background narrative....

...If you want to come on this long-term journey with us, the factions in the Forces of Fantasy and Ravening Hordes books are the ones to collect and play – and we want to be pretty clear about that"

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-us/articles/A80kNT0L/old-world-almanack-designer-round-table-on-the-past-and-future-of-a-stone-cold-classic/

I'm unsure why you get so worked up about this. GW has said a bunch of stuff about a lot of things that were correct in the moment and then direction changed. The popularity of this caught them off guard. Things could change.

Also your statement about the separation being about IP is completely incorrect. Or perhaps overly simplistic if you consider sales channels an IP thing. Either way it's been made evident by statements from people in the know that lack of specific armies is because of sales channels and people protecting their sandbox. And that it was fought right up until release (hence the extremely comprehensive "legend" forces).

The amount of fighting and issues just Demons cause the 40k and AoS studios was bad enough and that's when you dealing with a small faction that makes up a small part of forces in both systems. No consider how complicated the core of ENTIRE armies are for figuring out who gets credit for which sales and therefore money for development and bonus structures. Also Lumineth are almost a shot for shot remake of High Elves with some minor changes (hammers instead of axes, dancing great sword dudes, bows with pulleys, replacing a horse with a kangaroo, etc) which the only really NEW NEW thing being the walking cow mountain and some other animal spirit things.

Long story short, it's not about IP. It's about trackable sales numbers the board to make decision supported by actual information and for shareholders to be able to see correct decisions being made. So do us all a favor and stop scolding people for discussing things that, while contradictory to statements made over a year ago, may be possible.

Bear in mind I'm in the camp that if it does it'll happen it'll be at least 2 more years before we see anything and could be 5-8 because the only pull outs will be done when editions change for AoS and new battle tomes are released for AoS. I think getting excited about them any time soon is pointless. To be fair I'm also expecting ToW to be similar to Heresy/LOTR in only get a "new" edition every decade or so which is mostly a cleaning up and reprint of any rule amendments made over the last period of time.

The arcane journal have an interresting mage on the cover. The staff and the book is a good match with art of Belannaer the wise, the oldest loremaster of old fantasy battle and mentor of both Teclis and Eltharion.
Apparently he accompanied King Finubar the seafarer in his travels to the old world.
I smell a named character!

I'll be disappointed if Prince Althran won't get a re-release. One of the best high elf sculpts, since he was made for Island of Blood

 Ohman wrote:
Great to see these guys made it. I was sceptical because of the shared sprues of the original.

A recut sprue with just the 5 non-command Elves from Isle of Blood already existed, it was a webstore exclusive back in the day, so this was an easy product for them.

Guess that confirms its Cathay

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I've said it before so why not say it again.

What to integrate Cathay? Reverse Hong Kong!

In the 1300s China was the world's greatest maritime power and the great Admiral Muslim and Eunuch Zheng He/Cheng Ho sailed as far as Africa.

So on Planet Warhammer, have Cathay treasure ships sail to the Olde Worlde and set up a colony, call it Kong Hong. Somewhere between TOW and the End Times it was abandoned as Cathay realized the Olde Worlde had nothing they wanted.

Cathay is already easily integrated with: Chaos (all types), Dark Elves, Orcs & Goblins, Ogres, Vampire Counts (Lahmians and Jade Blooded), Skaven, High Elves

Lizardmen are fairly easy - Southlands, Dragon Isles, relic populations in Khuresh area, lost isles of Elithis, Lumbria if you want to be particularly saucy. You could easily invent a new Wood Elf faction somewhere near Cathay.

It's really only Tomb Kings, Empire, Bretonnia and Dwarfs that pose a problem. If you move your hypothetical Kong Hong to the Southlands somewhere near Sudenberg, then that's the Empire sorted without being too lore breakingly weird.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Either way it's been made evident by statements from people in the know

No, it hasnt. Its been said by complete randos on the internet who "know someone". Even then, the original source statements made on the topic were sprculative ratger than revelatory, they also were highly misconstrued and morphed from "GW wants to maintain product separation for accounting purposes" to "theres internal politics and infighting causing the AoS team to try to screw over the TOW team".

Also Lumineth are almost a shot for shot remake of High Elves with some minor changes (hammers instead of axes, dancing great sword dudes, bows with pulleys, replacing a horse with a kangaroo, etc) which the only really NEW NEW thing being the walking cow mountain and some other animal spirit things.

So, absolutely nothing alike, then?

Oh wait, kharadron and fyreslayers are short guys with beards and runic designs - these are identical to dwarves. Cities of sigmar are humans with helmets, swords, and shiekds - totally indistinguishable from empire. Stormcast wear magic heavy armor and srrve a god - they are clearly chaos warriors.

Long story short, it's not about IP. It's about trackable sales numbers the board to make decision supported by actual information and for shareholders to be able to see correct decisions being made.

Its 100% about the IP. Sales channels are only a small piece of that broader puzzle, the potential value of the IP and brand to the business from merchamdizing and licensing is much much greater than what can or will be achieved by slinging pladtic. Look at how much a major IP like GoT or Star Wars is worth and how much money that can make - its more than what all of GW combined has grossed over the padt decade. If you cross the streams by pollinating the same stuff into multiple brands? Its a lot harder to extract that value because exclusivity issues come into play. And its a lot harder to gauge the value of the ip when youre sales channels arent atrictly delineating so you can see where the cash flows are going.

Saying its only about minis sales is missing the forest for the trees and grossly oversimplifying the scenario.

So do us all a favor and stop scolding people for discussing things that, while contradictory to statements made over a year ago, may be possible.

"Do us all a favor and stop reminding me that my made up cope is purely fictitipus nonsense directly contradictory to the effective word of God and completely disconnected from anything we know to be factually relevant to the discussion."

FTFY.

 GaroRobe wrote:


Guess that confirms its Cathay

As much as I would love the unrevealed army to be Cathay, I am going to assume that it will be a "ravening hordes" army due to the fact that right now they only have 4 armies vs 5 for the "good guys". Could be it will be the long-awaited return of Chaos Dwarves which would be amazing.

CD are already confirmed as a new AoS force.

I wonder why the Swordmasters were given a slightly tweaked command squad, but the Seaguard didn't. Seaguard have a chariot, a new resin character, etc. Seems like the more obvious choice for some command squad variation

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
CD are already confirmed as a new AoS force.

Wait? What?

I entirely missed that one!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
CD are already confirmed as a new AoS force.

Wait? What?

I entirely missed that one!

Lots of teases, especially in the new core rulebook. Lots of chaos dwarf strong holds showing up on maps, lore snippets, etc.

Nothing "official" yet, but they're coming

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
CD are already confirmed as a new AoS force.

Wait? What?

I entirely missed that one!

Not officially - just through the very reliable rumour person on the AoS forum.

they do appear in the lore of AoS so they are part of the fabric of that setting and they've been "hinted at" for a long while. That said the Shadow Aelves have also been in lore and in the story since the very first days of AoS and they've had perhaps 1 model appear that "might" have been a shadow Aelf and since then nothing; only the odd mention in DoK stories when Morathi speaks to her son

They're also in today's preview video. You can see the screenshot in the other thread.

I did a quick and dirty unit list (not lords and heroes) for Cathay in TTW3 if anyone doesn't know them -