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The High Elves are so far the first faction where the amount of ‘new’ kits (I.E 8th edition or so) and the quality of the old kits holds up just enough that I could feasibly see myself actually buying the stupidly old models for this game.

Why are they releasing Korhil and then feel the need to release second Korhil?

 nathan2004 wrote:
Soulblight gravelords new sculpts mean 100% vampires are coming to old world as a core faction imo

That was my thought too! It looks like they are only missing the necromancer and the wight king on foot to have an entirely separate line, right?

 Segersgia wrote:


Posted this earlier today on TGAC, but it seems that they are planning to update the Old World Map on the Website, with Estalian heraldry visible if you bug out the map.

Bit odd but it could be tied to a narrative campaign book or something. Or they're gradually filling out the map in general. Can't imagine that Estalia itself would be getting its own faction before Kislev/Cathay/Tilea.

High Elves as expected really. New(ish) Reavers look decent and much of the rest of the range holds up relatively well (outside of the spearmen and archers).


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 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Why are they releasing Korhil and then feel the need to release second Korhil?

Given there's an entire army list in the Journal themed around Chrace, there wasn't currently a Chracian themed lord model and (pre-Captain of the White Lions) Korhil will presumably be a special character it's hardly egregious

Very excited to see the game getting a 9th faction, it does look like Cathay will be it.

Overall, the game has been handled quite well, we've had so much in the first year of release and it looks like the game is here to stay.

High elf range is really great, seems like one of the few armies which got a 100% hard plastic release, with mostly new kits too.

Really solid choice to get into the game, especially for new players. The low model count helps too.

Wouldnt cathay be the 10th faction?

Is it a faction or are people jumping at what could possibly be a supplement? If it is a new faction, it's going to have to be sculpted retroactively. because if it's to modern standards , it's going to make an outright mockery of all the armies released before it.

The little blank box on the road map has Cathay artwork on it - I think we're on a pretty high probability it's Cathay now

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Is it a faction or are people jumping at what could possibly be a supplement? If it is a new faction, it's going to have to be sculpted retroactively. because if it's to modern standards , it's going to make an outright mockery of all the armies released before it.

I can just see the design meeting where someone actively suggests that they make a new faction look a bit rubbish so that it doesn't outshine the older sculpts. Behave.

That's even taking it at face value that the modern standards are actually better (obviously production value has improved but sculpt quality is wildly subjective, especially given TOW has been bringing back stuff that spans about 20 years).

At some point, new faction will have to come out with new kits. It's inevitable. Hopefully, at least one existing faction would get a refresh along with the new stuff.

The only thing I'm curious about is how will GW contort itself into justifying adding Cathay to a game called The Old World, when Skaven, DE and VC are not in it, supposedly because of thematic constraints.

Skaven DE and Vamps aren't in it because most of their kits, at the time, were still in AoS. Now that it looks like official AoS kits are all coming out the old models will be shifted over to Old World.

Honestly thats pretty much the main reason they weren't included in the beginning. despite what GW has said.

Ah, thats better. In AOS we get friggin cows of all things, but at least in TOW we have Lions.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
At some point, new faction will have to come out with new kits. It's inevitable. Hopefully, at least one existing faction would get a refresh along with the new stuff.

The only thing I'm curious about is how will GW contort itself into justify adding Cathay to a game called The Old World, when Skaven, DE and VC are not in it, supposedly because of thematic constraints.

Long speculation that there was an ongoing internal conflict over the scope of the game and the more focused, limited launch was to test the waters (presumably the bean counters can now justify adding in properly 'new' stuff now). The devs have suggested that broadening that focus in an ongoing narrative is the intent. Skaven/VC seemingly aren't in purely due to them having (increasingly less) crossover with AoS and GW's weird internal politics and accounting. The TOW team may well have set the game when they did because there was ample existing lore justification to avoid having a major Skaven, DE or VC presence.

In lore terms, Cathay trading caravans seem the most obvious way of getting their forces in and around the current setting. Hard to justify things like the dragons themselves showing up but with the breadth needed for a full new faction, I wouldn't mind them just handwaving the narrative to an extent and releasing an expansion that's just 'meanwhile, in Cathay'.

I'm aware of the speculation on behind the scenes jousting at GW, I just can't help but poke at the lame excuse for not including core WFB factions in the new game.

I know Cathay will be big with a lot of fans, but I'd be rather disappointed if the first "new" force/campaign/expansion for the old world was Cathay focused.

After they ditched the armies they did in favour of keeping the game set in 'the old world' and then spending two years talking about how it was focused on the empire civil war, just for this rumour to be of the first expansion which has nothing to do with that area of the old world at all!

I would have thought Kislev would have been the ideal choice for the first of the non 'core' 9 forces. Its still tied to the empire & old world areas. It has a very small, but 'classic' model range which can be brought back or ran on MTO for those that just want to expand classic collections, but isn't large enough to interfere with bringing a whole new plastic range out. It would open the 'story' up for inclusion of further chaos/daemon models/campaigns later on.

Whilst Cathay would make for an interesting expansion, finally giving some new ground to WFB as a whole, I feel as the first new force it doesn't sit right.

Cathay being first is also a very big show of GW doing something utterly new and never before done with Old World. Kisleve have had models armies and so forth in the past; but Cathay is something that was only ever hinted at in the lore and a few stories. It was never somewhere that GW grew into models or an army - heck did they even have a token Mordheim model or such?

I think if they did Cathay first it really shows that GW are putting their all behind Old World in a serious way to fans; plus being utterly new its potential interest in the market is huge.

I’d be a bit disappointed, if Cathay is truly next. It would make more sense, if it was part of campaign release, that’s dedicated to the east (packaged with ogres, daemons and Eshin).
The only thing going for it is the “never seen before on tabletop” quality. But if they follow TW aesthetics, which they most likely will.. meh. It’s just generic Chinese fantasy look, with no warhammer spice added to it.
Besides, having yet another human faction, when there are already 2 out 9 is a bit dull. Skaven, Chorfs or undead would be more way more welcome imho.

 Overread wrote:
Cathay being first is also a very big show of GW doing something utterly new and never before done with Old World. Kisleve have had models armies and so forth in the past; but Cathay is something that was only ever hinted at in the lore and a few stories. It was never somewhere that GW grew into models or an army - heck did they even have a token Mordheim model or such?

I think if they did Cathay first it really shows that GW are putting their all behind Old World in a serious way to fans; plus being utterly new its potential interest in the market is huge.

Indeed. It's a sign of confidence in the product line beyond almost anything else they could have done. If you'd told someone 6 years ago that WHFB would be back and there would be a brand new Cathay army for it (first brand new army since Ogres in 2006!), people would have packed you off to the loonie bin. This shows that TOW is doing well and GW have faith in it.

I agree there's been pretty poor communication around the whole scope of the game and it's clear they're just spouting vague in universe explanations to cover up internal politics. It's also weird to set the game during the period of the Three Emperors/lead up to the war in Chaos and barely focus on it and whizz off to Cathay but I'll accept that in exchange for a whole new army. I wonder what really happened with this Cathay stuff, as they featured in the hype articles, then completely disappeared and now they're back, it speaks of some kind of internal nonsense going on at GW.

 Londinium wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Cathay being first is also a very big show of GW doing something utterly new and never before done with Old World. Kisleve have had models armies and so forth in the past; but Cathay is something that was only ever hinted at in the lore and a few stories. It was never somewhere that GW grew into models or an army - heck did they even have a token Mordheim model or such?

I think if they did Cathay first it really shows that GW are putting their all behind Old World in a serious way to fans; plus being utterly new its potential interest in the market is huge.

Indeed. It's a sign of confidence in the product line beyond almost anything else they could have done. If you'd told someone 6 years ago that WHFB would be back and there would be a brand new Cathay army for it (first brand new army since Ogres in 2006!), people would have packed you off to the loonie bin. This shows that TOW is doing well and GW have faith in it.

I agree there's been pretty poor communication around the whole scope of the game and it's clear they're just spouting vague in universe explanations to cover up internal politics. It's also weird to set the game during the period of the Three Emperors/lead up to the war in Chaos and barely focus on it and whizz off to Cathay but I'll accept that in exchange for a whole new army. I wonder what really happened with this Cathay stuff, as they featured in the hype articles, then completely disappeared and now they're back, it speaks of some kind of internal nonsense going on at GW.

At some point GW realised that there was such consumer demand for Original Old World models that they decided to gamble on re-releasing old models and heavily tap into the Nostalgia buttons when doing so and release even some stuff that never got a release and do Made-to-Order releases as well. I think that not only let them tap into the Nostalgia; but I think its also allowed them to grow the game super-fast. It's also a smart move because it means that lots of people get to dust off their old models and use them again.
So it lets the game grow REALLY fast because each army you add isn't just new people buying models; but people getting 2K armies on the table that very week because they got their old models out on the battlefield again. This lets them REALLY speed up growth of a new product line very quickly. Otherwise totally new armies you've got to go through a long period of growth to get people on board and playing, esp in a rank and file game which honestly tend to not work all that well at lower point levels.

Once GW made that choice I think it was sensible that they put the old armies out first. Get the people who have models playing and engaging and also because they were older models it meant that GW would get the old stuff out first. Older stuff has its own charm, but its also quirky and not "as good" as modern stuff. So if they'd gone with a totally new army right out of the gate chances are releasing Bretonnia with loads of old models right after would have felt like a kick in the teeth for Brets fans and every army that came after.

So instead they did it the other way around - get the old out first and steadily build up to totally new armies. And honestly the plan has clearly 100% Worked

The reality is that its probably less about sales crossover and more about IP generation and protection. Theres minimal value to GW in putting Skaven and VC and Ogres, etc in both AoS and TOW because the AoS interpretations of those things are very similar to the TOW interpretations - and in the case of VC and Skaven (for example) some of the charactsrs are identical. The ROI for GW is therefore minimal, because they dont create additional marketable IP or new branding opportunities. The other core factions, with the sole exception of chaos warriors, are all otherwise distinct from AOS interpretations - sylvaneth have basically foregone wood elves to focus on trees, cities of sigmar are aesthetically distinct from the Empires "weird Renaissance" vibe, Beastmen are seemingly cut from AoS entirely with hints they may reappear with a different thematic concept underlying them, TOWs dwarves are more grounded than Kharadron or Fyreslayers, etc.

Cathay (and Kislev, and other possible new factions) are therefore all basically fresh ground for GW to tread from a miniatures stanpoint, and with that comes growth of brand and IP, and corresponding licensing opportunities and revenue.

why are people speculating that VC/skaven/etc are going to become real armies in TOW? GW was very clear about their intent here; there's no secret messages to read about this

anyway Cathay would make a lot of sense for TOW, considering that's been hyped as a new faction since the game was announced. maybe a supplement or two first would make sense, tho. probably gonna go down the Heresy route of new campaign books every six months or so, and then released scattered between that

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
why are people speculating that VC/skaven/etc are going to become real armies in TOW? GW was very clear about their intent here; there's no secret messages to read about this

Hopium.

The thought is that if GW have different kits for, say, Clanrats that they can track separately, then they might be more inclined to support more armies.

Its really all just wishful thinking and hopium/copium.

I think that it's possible (even likely) that as the "legends" armies get reworks in AoS that they'll find a way to bring the older kits into Old World.

That said they still have a bit of a ways to go before Skaven, Ogres, Lizardmen, and Vampire counts have little to no crossover.

Vampire counts for example still have their ghoul line all over AoS along with a solid number of night haunts and even a few vampire units.

Ogres are so far off it's not even funny unless they just drop the ogre line. Skaven I don't know well enough but it feels like they may have almost gotten there but at the same time their AoS aesthetic is the same as their Old World one so I'm not sure they'd make the crossover.

Lizardmen are also right there but share to many of their monsters and we need an AoS skink unit. Also again, like Skaven, their aesthetic isn't to disimilar.

So while I wouldn't call it hopium/copium as I do think that they are going to be shifting over eventually. I think it's way to early for any of them to make the switch. Dark Elves are actually the most likely given that their entire line is an after thought in Cities and could easily be cut from the next book when Malfurion's forces come out in the next edition. But even that is what, 3 years likely away?

All that and I'm actually kinda excited for high elves. I never had the paint skill back in the day for them but I'm excited for the majority of this release. Getting the propertly scaled Swordmasters out of the IoB set is just awesome.

Honestly I think there's value in GW not copying all the armies over in the long term. Making two lines of Skaven, Lizardmen and all isn't just creative death for the team but its also a huge risk that people just gravitate toward one game over the other and proxy in the rest.

Having very distinct model lines means each game stands a LOT more on its own as its own thing. Sure you'll likely have that one exception in Slaves to Darkness and some of those High Elf and Luminieth models might swap over okish between the two here and there. But honestly I think the most healthy thing is for the two games to diverge.

That's the most healthy for giving each game its own identity. I 100% know that any long term lizardman player will NOT like that idea and wants their army back in Old World. At the same time I feel like its the best and most healthy long term direction to take the game.


Really the only surprise is Dark Elves. They aren't in Old World and they aren't really in AoS - or at least they are there and the army is almost entirely complete and they have had lore recently; but they don't have an army book; they don't have much if any marketing focus and no one REALLY knows if they are going to stay there; go to Old world; get replaced and updated or just vanish one day.

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
why are people speculating that VC/skaven/etc are going to become real armies in TOW? GW was very clear about their intent here; there's no secret messages to read about this

The same "this is it for the foreseeable future" marketing speak that ruled out legacy factions also ruled out Cathay. If it's true that Cathay (and therefore Kislev too) are coming then this is strong evidence that Old World is a success and will see continued support. For GW this normally means a new edition to facilitate new books to sell and related models.

Add in that VC, skaven and lizardmen AoS equivalents have seen recent model refreshes, and it makes it even more likely that a second edition will see more additional content. The real question should be, with the legacy factions being right there with many models not in AoS anymore, why wouldn't GW introduce them in the future?

 ImAGeek wrote:
The High Elves are so far the first faction where the amount of ‘new’ kits (I.E 8th edition or so) and the quality of the old kits holds up just enough that I could feasibly see myself actually buying the stupidly old models for this game.

You gotta avoid the spearmen, archers and silver helms (of which I would say some are not as nice as even the 4th ed versions), but that's easy with this release thanks to the IoB Lothern Sea Guard and new Reavers.

The real question is will the mystery next book be another multi-faction book like forces of fantasy and ravening hordes, or another Arcane Journal covering a single faction?

 Mr_Rose wrote:
The real question is will the mystery next book be another multi-faction book like forces of fantasy and ravening hordes, or another Arcane Journal covering a single faction?

Could it be a “adventures in Cathay” campaign book as a way to introduce the new army? That’d be an interesting way to expand without disrupting any ongoing narrative.

Would there be more (returning) factions to go in as well?