Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Mallo wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

Billicus wrote:
That would be a bit weird because I don't think anyone really considers "Starter set" to mean "push-fit minis" and also the last few 40k "launch boxes" have had push-fit minis in them anyway.

It seems that GW has very specific ideas what kind of terminology they want to use for their products (and have been inconsistent about it in the past, at least in some cases, which obviously doesn't help). Customers are far broader and more casual about such things.

The failure at Warhammer Fest seems to have been an inability of the presenters to understand what the audience was asking. Strictly, by their own definitions, they answered correctly. But that does not actually help an audience that may not be aware of GW's terminology, or doesn't care to use it. This is something the PR people have to pick up on to avoid miscommunication.

I'd understand that if this was like a bunch of suits being plonked in front of an audience. But these guys are meant to be hobbyist themselves, they must have some idea of the words they say will have a certain meaning or that most hobbyist won't always refer to products in the terminology cooked up by marketing. The front line staff of GW are not so far removed from 'regular' hobbyists, surely?

Its either the best marketing strategy ever devised. Nothing keeps things in peoples social media feeds better than putting out some stupid PR commentary, being deliberately vague, and making customers pass about broken whispers (adding to the fable of the now legendary 20+ year old kits! Keep them secret! Keep them safe!) keeping everyone arguing about warhammer (And not noticing other games)

Or

They have weaponised incompetence.

Warhammerfest was just a weirdly quarter-assed thing all around - like many of these corporate affairs, nowadays you can almost cut the feeling of detached cynicism of most people involved with a knife, as they're neither genuinly excited about the things they're presenting nor involved enough to at least convincingly fake it. I don't remember which panel it was that opened with a dialogue of 'So, Jim, have you done something exciting for $game lately?' 'No, not really Bob, no' but it sums the thing up perfectly - real 'quiet quitting' hour feelings in there.

 Mallo wrote:

Its either the best marketing strategy ever devised. Nothing keeps things in peoples social media feeds better than putting out some stupid PR commentary, being deliberately vague, and making customers pass about broken whispers (adding to the fable of the now legendary 20+ year old kits! Keep them secret! Keep them safe!) keeping everyone arguing about warhammer (And not noticing other games)

Amusingly enough it was nearly 20 years after Bilbo's Birthday part that Frodo & friends actually got off their butts and starting moving.

Voss wrote:
Or, to be fair, institutional jargon that they use on a regular basis wins.

Everybody has their own, and its very easy to forget that other people don't use it. If its really bad, it doesn't translate between departments, let alone the outside world. (and the lest said about government acronyms the better)

I know in my own workplace, there's a huge divide between them upstairs, those of us that actually work, and terminology our patrons understand.

^^ This

Language and terminology internal to a firm can be very different when it comes to how the public interact with products. Most of the time its totally fine; but every so often you'll get a mistake where someone asks a simple question that gets answered the wrong way because the person answering has their company brain running instead of their consumer brain. Heck sometimes its just because they know a LOT of things that they are not allowed to tell you so they are doing their best to make sure they only release the info that you are supposed to know on that day. Which can result in someone being super cagey about even really simple things or tripping up because they are in full company mode and "no starter set" was drummed into them even if there is a set that's basically what 99.0% of customers would consider a starter set and which marketing will probably call a starter (or use similar language - eg entry set) when marketing it in a few weeks/months time.

leopard wrote:
all this is about is GW seeing other companies have "rank and file" games with a fantasy setting and they want that market

not all of it, but enough no other company can use it to grow

This man understands.....

 Overread wrote:

Voss wrote:
Or, to be fair, institutional jargon that they use on a regular basis wins.

Everybody has their own, and its very easy to forget that other people don't use it. If its really bad, it doesn't translate between departments, let alone the outside world. (and the lest said about government acronyms the better)

I know in my own workplace, there's a huge divide between them upstairs, those of us that actually work, and terminology our patrons understand.

^^ This

Language and terminology internal to a firm can be very different when it comes to how the public interact with products. Most of the time its totally fine; but every so often you'll get a mistake where someone asks a simple question that gets answered the wrong way because the person answering has their company brain running instead of their consumer brain. Heck sometimes its just because they know a LOT of things that they are not allowed to tell you so they are doing their best to make sure they only release the info that you are supposed to know on that day. Which can result in someone being super cagey about even really simple things or tripping up because they are in full company mode and "no starter set" was drummed into them even if there is a set that's basically what 99.0% of customers would consider a starter set and which marketing will probably call a starter (or use similar language - eg entry set) when marketing it in a few weeks/months time.

GW is really paranoid about giving anything but the barest, approved at the highest level information away. I suspect that its PR people might worry about the answers they're allowed/not allowed to give so much that they don't even want to try to interpret questions lest they accidentally give something away they shouldn't have.

The wise spokesperson never takes questions from the audience.

At the most you let audience submit questions to the host who then cherry picks, edits or outright makes up the questions you want to answer.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
The wise spokesperson never takes questions from the audience.

At the most you let audience submit questions to the host who then cherry picks, edits or outright makes up the questions you want to answer.

see also just about every "FAQ" ever issued

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
The wise spokesperson never takes questions from the audience.

A Q&A session where presenters and audience stare at each other in silent loathing for an hour is something GW should try at some point. Maybe even stream it so the Internet can partake in the experience as well.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
The wise spokesperson never takes questions from the audience.

At the most you let audience submit questions to the host who then cherry picks, edits or outright makes up the questions you want to answer.

According to people there, questions were being prescreened before brought to the mike.

I wasn't there - but the idea you'd get confused over what a "starter" is in a Q/A sort of beggars belief.

Find it far easier to believe the guy taking questions didn't think there was, so just said "no". Cue outrage, cue "obviously there will be" a few hours later.

Maybe in GW-head Leviathan, the thing they'd spent 2 days hyping up, isn't a starter (cos it lacks dice and whippy sticks). But if so the response is surely "not a starter as such - but something like Leviathan".

 Londinium wrote:


Just to end this irrational nonsense that the non core factions are basically dead and will never be looked at...

A few months ago the warhammer Facebook page replied to me saying that they hadnt heard anything about plans to update the Daemon Prince but to keep an eye out in the future. A month later they announced the new Daemon Prince kit. The people that run the social media teams know basically nothing about long term plans and always frame everything in the context of "who knows what might happen woooo anything is possible ahhhh". If you're taking this as an indication of *anything* then you're falling for marketing-speak for empty promises and wishful thinking (and I say that as someone in a long term relationship with someone who specifically does marketing in the game industry).

And before anyone starts, the warcom article was actually written by "the guys from the Warhammer Design Studio" (per the article itself) - its fair to say they know what they are talking about - much moreso than the social media manager.

Ok lets speak positively for a little bit.

We have seen the new heroes for the Tomb Kings and the Brets. We also know that Brets are getting foot knights (GW said in the Bret reveal article). The last time the Brets had foot knight was 3rd edition. Based off the Tomb King weapon Sprue that they have showed a couple of articles ago, i thought is was a sprue for a plastic hero but since they showed off the Resin Hero i have changed my mind. I think that these weapons will go to a foot mummy unit similar to the one from 4th edition.

With the announcement of the armies that are coming back first and will get new units and heroes. I think heroes do not matter much, unless it is a new model for a existing Special Character. These are the units that i think are returning to TOW from previous editions with new kits.

Empire -
Reiksgard Foot Knights
War Wagon
Halflings

Wood Elves-
Animal Trainers
Falconeers
Zoats (they were part of the wood elf army in 2nd and 3rd editions)

Chaos -
Thugs
Chaos Dwarf War Machines

Beastmen -
Slangors
Tzangors
Centigors

Greenskins
Plastic Snotlings and Pump Wagon
Fimir (Forge World made some and since they are running things they may come back)

Brets -
Foot Knights

Dwarf -
Dwarf Weapon Teams
Norse Dwarfs (berserkers)

High Elves -
No earthly idea

Tomb Kings -
Foot Mummies from 4th edition

Paymaster I honestly think Gdubs should have put you in charge of this project, we would have all ended up with something we loved. Also I’m being serious here and not sarcastic.

 nathan2004 wrote:
Paymaster I honestly think Gdubs should have put you in charge of this project, we would have all ended up with something we loved. Also I’m being serious here and not sarcastic.

Thank you.

When i was a younger man i gave it the old college try and it did not get anywhere. I did write a article that appeared in White Dwarf years ago, and I did have a conversation with one of the designers about updating the rules of the Dogs of War. But all of the is in the past, i run my own model company now but if i could land a job at GW design team at my age i would take it.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Londinium wrote:


Just to end this irrational nonsense that the non core factions are basically dead and will never be looked at...

A few months ago the warhammer Facebook page replied to me saying that they hadnt heard anything about plans to update the Daemon Prince but to keep an eye out in the future. A month later they announced the new Daemon Prince kit. The people that run the social media teams know basically nothing about long term plans and always frame everything in the context of "who knows what might happen woooo anything is possible ahhhh". If you're taking this as an indication of *anything* then you're falling for marketing-speak for empty promises and wishful thinking (and I say that as someone in a long term relationship with someone who specifically does marketing in the game industry).

And before anyone starts, the warcom article was actually written by "the guys from the Warhammer Design Studio" (per the article itself) - its fair to say they know what they are talking about - much moreso than the social media manager.

Well. He just repeats what gw has said before.

So if you don't trust then no matter who says you don't trust it.

At which point just admit you think gw lies about everything.

But while gw doesn't tell everything they don't flat out lie generally. Bad business

So according to you for example no foot knights are coming. Gw said are coming but they are lying. Hell even 40k 10th ed coming this year isn't sure thing as everything gw says can be lie regardless of who says what.

Yup, a good summary of how a conspiracy theory mindset works.

tneva82 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Londinium wrote:


Just to end this irrational nonsense that the non core factions are basically dead and will never be looked at...

A few months ago the warhammer Facebook page replied to me saying that they hadnt heard anything about plans to update the Daemon Prince but to keep an eye out in the future. A month later they announced the new Daemon Prince kit. The people that run the social media teams know basically nothing about long term plans and always frame everything in the context of "who knows what might happen woooo anything is possible ahhhh". If you're taking this as an indication of *anything* then you're falling for marketing-speak for empty promises and wishful thinking (and I say that as someone in a long term relationship with someone who specifically does marketing in the game industry).

And before anyone starts, the warcom article was actually written by "the guys from the Warhammer Design Studio" (per the article itself) - its fair to say they know what they are talking about - much moreso than the social media manager.

Well. He just repeats what gw has said before.

So if you don't trust then no matter who says you don't trust it.

At which point just admit you think gw lies about everything.

But while gw doesn't tell everything they don't flat out lie generally. Bad business

So according to you for example no foot knights are coming. Gw said are coming but they are lying. Hell even 40k 10th ed coming this year isn't sure thing as everything gw says can be lie regardless of who says what.

There's a difference between direct statements like 'There will be Foot Knights for Bretonnia' and deliberately vague statements like 'It is possible that we will do things in the future'.

Concerning the statement above, in the screenshot, there are many possibilities how it can be technically true while also not being what any normal person would think of when they heard it. The statement reads:

Most armies will be comprised predominantly of returning classic kits which include a whole load of plastics, as well as some metal and resin miniatures. There will also be new kits released in both plastic and Forgeworld resin too.

The reading a normal person would infer is: 'Armies will consist mostly of plastic models, with some resin and metal besides, and will get new plastic and resin kits besides'

But if we do a careful (paranoid) reading, and use the most hostile interpretation at every turn, we get:

Most = not all, but the majority
Predominantly = 51%
Returning classics which include... = Some select plastic kits are returning, but it's mostly metal and resin
There will be... = This leaves the widest avenue for interpretation; technically this would be true with a single plastic kit and a handful of FW sets; there's also no definition what a 'kit' is in the end, this encompasses everything from a single multipart character to full regimental boxes or large multipart centrepieces

So effectively this statement could cover as much as 'all classic plastic boxes for these armies, most classic metal/resin characters, as well as new plastic kits and FW resin characters and monsters never seen before' and as little as 'some armies get limited selections of their plastic boxes back, while others will only get their character blisters made available again, and there will be a handful of new plastic kits and FW characters for a few armies'

The truth will obviously lie somewhere in the middle, and probably more on the positive side, but the statement itself is intentionally very vague and noncommittal while sounding very enthusiatic and positive if you only glance over it superficially.

I hope that everything turns out great and the game gets substantial support, but the above statement allows for dirty tricks like plastic boxes just being existing kits with a new weapon loadout, or the 'resin kits' being the handful of command sets and characters Forgeworld did for e.g. Blackfire Pass but never got around to releasing. Better to reign in your expectations somewhat than being disappointed later on.

Which is still all irrelevant if gw doesn't lower prices and create a ruleset that for once needs to compete with competent ones from other companies.

Because the grogs have left or play oldhammer versions.
A Lot are miffed about the rebasing, especially those with large armies.
Entry price and pts will remain a hurdle for new blood, nvm size of games.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Which is still all irrelevant if gw doesn't lower prices and create a ruleset that for once needs to compete with competent ones from other companies.

It's directly important because plastic regiment kits are the only product that are affordable enough to allow people to enter the game at all; without a possibility to build the backbone of an army with relatively cheap plastic kits, the whole game rests on people that have armies already, second-hand stuff or 3rd-party replacements, all of which make GW no money. Launching a rank-and-file game that rest squarely on the shoulders of FW resin regiments at FW prices is a doomed endeavour. Rules etc. play a distinct second fiddle if nobody can afford the game.

Just had a thought regarding new bases.
By keeping the old base sizes, my armies can be used for:
- WFB 6E
- WFB 8E
- Kings of War (In ranks)
- Warhammer Armies Project
- The Old World (Using spaced unit trays)

Conversely, the new sizes allow me to play:
- The Old World (In an environment where I cannot just use spacers)

So we now have a game mode that is not readily compatible with anything else and does not provide equal support to all its factions. For veteran WFB players it does not seem at all appealing to rebase anything, even if I end up playing TOW as a ruleset.

Mozzamanx wrote:
Just had a thought regarding new bases.
By keeping the old base sizes, my armies can be used for:
- WFB 6E
- WFB 8E
- Kings of War (In ranks)
- Warhammer Armies Project
- The Old World (Using spaced unit trays)

Conversely, the new sizes allow me to play:
- The Old World (In an environment where I cannot just use spacers)

So we now have a game mode that is not readily compatible with anything else and does not provide equal support to all its factions. For veteran WFB players it does not seem at all appealing to rebase anything, even if I end up playing TOW as a ruleset.

It will probably boil down to how important GW-organized Organized Play is to you; if you don't want to do it with some regularity, you have absolutely no incentive to do any rebasing. That, again, contributes to the ongoing problem of this game not really knowing who it is for anyway.

Good thing you aren't required to change your bases at all.

 Gert wrote:
Good thing you aren't required to change your bases at all.

Since no base size is going to shrink, close to 100% of people will just use movement trays with adequate spacing and markings, if they feel the need to do anything at all. It's a non-issue for most.

If you flip a 25mm base upside down, a 20mm base nestles in it quite nicely (and I would imagine 25mm bases will do the same with what ever base replaces them, too). Saves a fortune on spaced movement trays, and means models can be used in older editions as well.

A change in base size, brings about game changing effects. Movement through spaces, frontage size for charging and fighting etc.
I'm going to assume GW have taken this into account with the statistics of the models they are altering with the necessary playtesting required.

Tsagualsa wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Which is still all irrelevant if gw doesn't lower prices and create a ruleset that for once needs to compete with competent ones from other companies.

It's directly important because plastic regiment kits are the only product that are affordable enough to allow people to enter the game at all; without a possibility to build the backbone of an army with relatively cheap plastic kits, the whole game rests on people that have armies already, second-hand stuff or 3rd-party replacements, all of which make GW no money. Launching a rank-and-file game that rest squarely on the shoulders of FW resin regiments at FW prices is a doomed endeavour. Rules etc. play a distinct second fiddle if nobody can afford the game.

That's why the old kits coming back means there's plenty of plastics.

And cheaper than all new plastic line some people hoped for.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
A change in base size, brings about game changing effects. Movement through spaces, frontage size for charging and fighting etc.
I'm going to assume GW have taken this into account with the statistics of the models they are altering with the necessary playtesting required.

I'm worried about the implications. Units will have a bigger footprint on average, so maybe the will reduce unit size to a pre-hordes amount to compensate? But that would be quite counter productive to selling more models overall. This game still holds quite a few mysteries.

I find it a bit disappointing that they decided to bring old models back for this personally. I understand that this is also probably a minority opinion. I have no old armies anymore so the basing question is a moot point for me.

If the new plastics (especially Bretonnians) are sculpted to match the detail and proportion of older kits (and they might very well be, considering the previewed hero) then I am definitely out. I very much prefer their (GW's) newer sculpt proportions and detail levels.

I will still probably get any rulebooks though. Especially if there is new fluff and artwork.

Tsagualsa wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Which is still all irrelevant if gw doesn't lower prices and create a ruleset that for once needs to compete with competent ones from other companies.

It's directly important because plastic regiment kits are the only product that are affordable enough to allow people to enter the game at all; without a possibility to build the backbone of an army with relatively cheap plastic kits, the whole game rests on people that have armies already, second-hand stuff or 3rd-party replacements, all of which make GW no money. Launching a rank-and-file game that rest squarely on the shoulders of FW resin regiments at FW prices is a doomed endeavour. Rules etc. play a distinct second fiddle if nobody can afford the game.

Which is preciscly what i stated? The competition is cheaper, has more modern sculpts and better rulesets right now. (And i question their skill to produce a ruleset that is competent enough to draw new blood on it's own merit)

Bringing back the old plastics is indeed the right call but with how big some units needed to be and the pts we still are in an area were old whfb was and that was a game that par excellence was described as not accessible due to price.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Which is still all irrelevant if gw doesn't lower prices and create a ruleset that for once needs to compete with competent ones from other companies.

It's directly important because plastic regiment kits are the only product that are affordable enough to allow people to enter the game at all; without a possibility to build the backbone of an army with relatively cheap plastic kits, the whole game rests on people that have armies already, second-hand stuff or 3rd-party replacements, all of which make GW no money. Launching a rank-and-file game that rest squarely on the shoulders of FW resin regiments at FW prices is a doomed endeavour. Rules etc. play a distinct second fiddle if nobody can afford the game.

Which is preciscly what i stated? The competition is cheaper, has more modern sculpts and better rulesets right now. (And i question their skill to produce a ruleset that is competent enough to draw new blood on it's own merit)

Bringing back the old plastics is indeed the right call but with how big some units needed to be and the pts we still are in an area were old whfb was and that was a game that par excellence was described as not accessible due to price.

I wrote my answer before i saw your substantial edit, obviously we share a point of view on this project.