Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Anyone else glad the celestial hurricanum isn't coming back? I hope in this earlier iteration of the empire they downplay the magic and lean more into smoke belching war engines or something else.

 Thargrim wrote:
Anyone else glad the celestial hurricanum isn't coming back?

I had repressed that the Hurricanum was in WFB and was convinced it was a CoS unit for AoS.


With each new faction release do you think there will be an army box with Book + whippy sticks or will that just be for these first two to kick off ToW?

 Ahtman wrote:

 Thargrim wrote:
Anyone else glad the celestial hurricanum isn't coming back?

I had repressed that the Hurricanum was in WFB and was convinced it was a CoS unit for AoS.


With each new faction release do you think there will be an army box with Book + whippy sticks or will that just be for these first two to kick off ToW?

Given GW's increasingly army / multi unit box set release model and inability to keep standard unit box sets in stock, I'd be willing to bet a piece of anatomy on it.

 Thargrim wrote:
Anyone else glad the celestial hurricanum isn't coming back?

I imagine the people who have those units, and especially those that have lovingly painted them, might not be all that hot on the idea of their units being invalidated.

I have both units...it's life. Just use them as unit fillers.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
I still can't believe that people spent ages moaning that they wanted WHFB back, and then stamp their feet and complain that it isn't good enough when they get back exactly what they asked for.

Different people want different things, and angry gamers are louder than content gamers. I am absolutely thrilled with everything shown for ToW: I like the rules as previewed, I like the new base sizes that allow models room to rank, I like the new models shown and I don't care one bit that GW is re-releasing old models, I'll be VERY happy to pay retail MSRP for some Dragon Princes instead of the $120+ that new boxes often go for on ebay. I may be starting a new Bretonnian army since I sold my old 7th ed one years ago, perfectly happy with the old plastic Knights box coming back, prefectly happy with the old plastic Pegasi Knights and Men at Arms returning.

Haters gonna hate, and they're gonna hate LOUDLY, but many of us are simply quietly happy. ToW is far from perfect, but my gripes are minor.

Dudeface wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
...are any of the Skaven SC meant to be 100's of years old?

Not so much, but you'd expect the verminlords to be present by virtue of being daemons.

Having reviewed the base size lists, there aren't any SCs listed for any faction (including other "legacy" factions), so that specific complaint is currently null and void.

Verminlords are an odd one, though - do we have a reference for when they first manifested? Trying to figure out if it is a timeline thing, though it is possible that whoever posted the list just didn't include them for some reason.

Ikit is around at this time as he was active in 1813 IC, he is probably travelling.
Nurglitch is always the name of the leader of Clan Pestilens not a single Skaven
Queek may be too young - not sure same with Snitch and Throt

 Ahtman wrote:

 Thargrim wrote:
Anyone else glad the celestial hurricanum isn't coming back?

I had repressed that the Hurricanum was in WFB and was convinced it was a CoS unit for AoS.


With each new faction release do you think there will be an army box with Book + whippy sticks or will that just be for these first two to kick off ToW?

I was hoping they would cut these silly flying boats from HE too...

 Thargrim wrote:
Anyone else glad the celestial hurricanum isn't coming back? I hope in this earlier iteration of the empire they downplay the magic and lean more into smoke belching war engines or something else.

Not really. I have four of them to paint and intend to use TOW as an excuse to finally get around to doing them.

Their removal of them, after hinting that we should expect anything from 8th edition to return, stinks a bit as they are fantastic models.

I have every intention of still using them, I'll either port the rules over or use them as stand ins for some sort of 'mystical steam tank'. I suspect many others will do the same.

 Dysartes wrote:
Having reviewed the base size lists, there aren't any SCs listed for any faction (including other "legacy" factions)

I know I'm in an extreme minority on this but I hope special characters are relegated to lore and not battlefield units. Unless I'm playing Necromunda or Mordheim I don't really like special characters in games.

Spetial characters not being on the rest of thel ists doesn't make the conversation about including them "null and void" but more relevant for the matter. Theyve allways been a hot topic in Fantasy since the herohammer days.

About Throt, his age is never stated, but we know half of clan Moulder are his genetical heirs, so that takes some time going around. We know less about Snikch and Skrolk, but if Ikit is around, they also should be there as theres not a lot of lore about their true ages. That said, Queek wasn't around, he starts kill-killing when Belegar is already old.

 Dysartes wrote:

Verminlords are an odd one, though - do we have a reference for when they first manifested? Trying to figure out if it is a timeline thing, though it is possible that whoever posted the list just didn't include them for some reason.

Skreech dates back to the days a little after Nagash. Alltho, if youve read the 4th ed armybook there was one verminlord summoned during the Black Death war, and in that tale the grey seer shows that the knowledge on how to summon them comes from ancient.

The hurricanum is an area where GW can’t win:

OMG the Hurricanum is in, it’s a massive retcon to exist in this time period, GW doesn’t care about lore, I quit, I hate GW

OMG the hurricanum is out, GW don’t care about the models I have, I quit, I hate GW

Garrac wrote:
Spetial characters not being on the rest of thel ists doesn't make the conversation about including them "null and void" but more relevant for the matter. Theyve allways been a hot topic in Fantasy since the herohammer days.

About Throt, his age is never stated, but we know half of clan Moulder are his genetical heirs, so that takes some time going around. We know less about Snikch and Skrolk, but if Ikit is around, they also should be there as theres not a lot of lore about their true ages. That said, Queek wasn't around, he starts kill-killing when Belegar is already old.

 Dysartes wrote:

Verminlords are an odd one, though - do we have a reference for when they first manifested? Trying to figure out if it is a timeline thing, though it is possible that whoever posted the list just didn't include them for some reason.

Skreech dates back to the days a little after Nagash. Alltho, if youve read the 4th ed armybook there was one verminlord summoned during the Black Death war, and in that tale the grey seer shows that the knowledge on how to summon them comes from ancient.

Special Characters are in the Arcane Journals not the main army lists. GW has been pretty clear on this.

There was a question on if the same would apply for the legacy pdfs, but it seems it does, so no Special Characters for non-core races.

Though it does look like some of them have been genericised- e.g. in the OK base list it mentions butchers with cauldron, which was a special character (Skrag) in previous editions.

 Mallo wrote:

 Thargrim wrote:
Anyone else glad the celestial hurricanum isn't coming back? I hope in this earlier iteration of the empire they downplay the magic and lean more into smoke belching war engines or something else.

Not really. I have four of them to paint and intend to use TOW as an excuse to finally get around to doing them.

Their removal of them, after hinting that we should expect anything from 8th edition to return, stinks a bit as they are fantastic models.

I have every intention of still using them, I'll either port the rules over or use them as stand ins for some sort of 'mystical steam tank'. I suspect many others will do the same.

But they're anachronistic to the setting of the game, they have no place existing at that time was my understanding. I suspect there'll be "legends" rules for them eventually though.

 Dysartes wrote:

Having reviewed the base size lists, there aren't any SCs listed for any faction (including other "legacy" factions), so that specific complaint is currently null and void.

It makes sense for the time period they chose. For many factions, the special chars aren’t around, so they had the choice of just some long lived factions getting them and others not, or leave ‘em out of the initial books and build them up in the Journals.

Ahtman wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Having reviewed the base size lists, there aren't any SCs listed for any faction (including other "legacy" factions)

I know I'm in an extreme minority on this but I hope special characters are relegated to lore and not battlefield units. Unless I'm playing Necromunda or Mordheim I don't really like special characters in games.

We know there are special characters in the Arcane Journals for Bretonnia and Tomb Kings - Settra was mentioned in the TK one, and there's a named Damsel in the Bret one, IIRC, with the descriptions mentioning three in each, off the top of my head.

Garrac wrote:Spetial characters not being on the rest of thel ists doesn't make the conversation about including them "null and void" but more relevant for the matter. Theyve allways been a hot topic in Fantasy since the herohammer days.

I wasn't negating other points, just the complaint about no SCs in the Skaven basing list - if there are no Special Characters in the base size lists for any of the factions we've been given information about (presumably because they're from the general army lists), then the Skaven aren't suffering uneven treatment in that regard, which is what you appeared to be complaining about.

 kodos wrote:
people should know by now the risk of doing a GW game and that models are randomly removed, no matter if it is just a new edition or a new game

Would you say the same thing to a Chaos player who wants his Jump Pack Lord back? A Tyranid player who'd like non-flying Tyranid Primes back? What about the Marine players who just had vast swathes of their Marine armies completely removed from the game?

MaxT wrote:
It makes sense for the time period they chose. For many factions, the special chars aren’t around, so they had the choice of just some long lived factions getting them and others not, or leave ‘em out of the initial books and build them up in the Journals.

*grumbles in immortal High Elf and Slann*

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 kodos wrote:
people should know by now the risk of doing a GW game and that models are randomly removed, no matter if it is just a new edition or a new game

Would you say the same thing to a Chaos player who wants his Jump Pack Lord back? A Tyranid player who'd like non-flying Tyranid Primes back? What about the Marine players who just had vast swathes of their Marine armies completely removed from the game?

yes?
everyone who is with GW for more than 2 Editions of the main game should know that whatever they buy it is just for the current version of the rules and no matter how many will tell them that only with GW games everything they buy will always be valid, it is not

bad for those who thought otherwise, yes but does not change it

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 kodos wrote:
people should know by now the risk of doing a GW game and that models are randomly removed, no matter if it is just a new edition or a new game

Would you say the same thing to a Chaos player who wants his Jump Pack Lord back? A Tyranid player who'd like non-flying Tyranid Primes back? What about the Marine players who just had vast swathes of their Marine armies completely removed from the game?

It's not quite the same though in this case. It's like asking why someone can't use Tau minis in Horus Heresy. They chose to move the setting back to avoid the end times mess, as a result this means some events that leads to some of the units existing haven't happened. Ironically the strength of the setting and fluff if a massive positive for the setting and part of the reason this should be a successful release.

Edit: not saying this makes it easier to swallow for people, but it's not the same as "you randomly lost jump packs".

I’m guessing as they’re on 32mm rounds anyway, the new Saurus sculpts probably won’t rank up on 30mm squares?

Dudeface wrote:
It's not quite the same though in this case. It's like asking why someone can't use Tau minis in Horus Heresy. They chose to move the setting back to avoid the end times mess, as a result this means some events that leads to some of the units existing haven't happened. Ironically the strength of the setting and fluff if a massive positive for the setting and part of the reason this should be a successful release.

the irony here is that in the very same article they designer said that those models are not used in TOW for fluff reason, they also said they decided against changes for weapons according to fluff because for not invalidating peoples model collections

 kodos wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
It's not quite the same though in this case. It's like asking why someone can't use Tau minis in Horus Heresy. They chose to move the setting back to avoid the end times mess, as a result this means some events that leads to some of the units existing haven't happened. Ironically the strength of the setting and fluff if a massive positive for the setting and part of the reason this should be a successful release.

the irony here is that in the very same article they designer said that those models are not used in TOW for fluff reason, they also said they decided against changes for weapons according to fluff because for not invalidating peoples model collections

There is a significant difference between core troops that should arguably have cosmetic changes to their weapons* and a rare wagon whose lore is firmly tied up with events after the time period.

*though Mordheim is set earlier and the black powder weapons there aren’t hugely different, just rarer

it is a stupid argument, as the troops have had those weapons 200 years earlier, so there is no real need to change them at all
in addition depending on how old your models are, the weapons they use are already looking very different and no model has been invalid just because their weapons are looking 50 years newer in a setting were technology did not change for 300 years

so very generous of them not changing something were no change was needed to keep valid that would have been valid anyway
yet deciding to take background very strict for models that are still used in the other game
(not like the background could have been altered to make it possible to use, same as they altered the background for Flagellants to make them rare instead of common, specially as they mention lost technology for the imperium so they could be that same model but different background)

Dudeface wrote:

 Mallo wrote:

 Thargrim wrote:
Anyone else glad the celestial hurricanum isn't coming back? I hope in this earlier iteration of the empire they downplay the magic and lean more into smoke belching war engines or something else.

Not really. I have four of them to paint and intend to use TOW as an excuse to finally get around to doing them.

Their removal of them, after hinting that we should expect anything from 8th edition to return, stinks a bit as they are fantastic models.

I have every intention of still using them, I'll either port the rules over or use them as stand ins for some sort of 'mystical steam tank'. I suspect many others will do the same.

But they're anachronistic to the setting of the game, they have no place existing at that time was my understanding. I suspect there'll be "legends" rules for them eventually though.

I agree this is probably why they removed them. The other reason is likely to keep the TOW 'brand' and AoS 'Brand' more unique compared to each other.

But this time period would have been fully playable/supportable had they set the game up as the same kind of sandbox that old editions of WFB were. Especially since these models are still for sale! Its just another reason I can't see why anyone with an existing collection would want to push their group to take TOW on as the 'standard' ruleset when it goes out of its way to exclude so many things that WFB already offers. Its not like TOW is going to be supported in official stores and requires people to adopt it to play with strangers/newbies regularly.

I guess GW want to box people into this timeline/setting, rather than letting people dip in and out of the different wfb timeline 'eras' as before.

Just a shame that tow has less to offer and so far shows nothing that is new or unique about this version.

I think the Freeguild Fusiliers would make perfect ToW handgunners, because the use the predecessor of handguns which is handcannons.

Is it also already known if Dogs of War get a Legacy PDF? The whole Cities of Sigmar range would make for a great Mercenary army.

It's an argument made because of the realities that lore has to serve the models not the other way around. And this isn't a new game; its an old game with old models that GW are selling and which people own.

Even if technology didn't change you'd expect fashions and design asthetics and such to shift around over long spans of time; but we don't see that on the models.


It's something we are sacrificing to get the GAME back. Sure GW could have just plunked it nearer to the End Times, but I get the feeling they wanted some future design space to work with. Plus lets face it that period was well covered and it would likely have sparked a lot of "End Times" drama on its own.

As time passes and if the game sells well enough we will likely see multiple units updated to modern plastics with new design elements. Similar to how AoS armies have slowly updated.

Note on the Hurricanum and Luminark:
You can also use it as a Wizard version of a War Altar and play as the latter.

Wasn't the War Altar commissioned after the Great War by Magnus? That one shouldn't be here either AFAIK.