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 SgtEeveell wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I get a kind of gut feeling that the whole "divide the model lines" was a late plan not an early plan. So it might be that for Slaves to Darkness (which GW couldn't take out of AoS like they did Beastmen and I'm still surprised they got away with that!) the AOS team was going to poach a few models.

I don't think so. They have been doing it for years with 40K/Horus Heresy. It was probably planned from the start, especially with which factions were going to be supported vs. legacy.

Years, as in since last summer?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/06/01/legions-and-legends-warhammer-the-horus-heresy-models-in-games-of-warhammer-40000/

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/06/21/the-legends-of-the-horus-heresy-get-downloadable-rules-for-warhammer-40000/

Between first and second edition, heresy didn't lose any 40k units either. The first real evidence of this change was last year, with the exclusion of "heresy" units from tournament-play army selection in modern tenth edition 40k (along with other more 40k originating legends).

The split seems to strange to me. Obviously they'll make whatever decisions they'll make for business and/or ego reasons, but we have:

1. Warriors of Chaos, who have both an old range in TOW and a new range of near-equivalents and replacements in AoS

2. Lizardmen, who have AoS replacements and new models but are legacy

3. Ogres, who have an old range and are in AoS

4. Beasts, who have an old range and fell out of AoS

I just can't really discern a pattern, but also it's not like GW needs to follow on or owes us explanations.

Longstrider wrote:
...but also it's not like GW needs to follow on or owes us explanations.

Owe? No. But a better understanding would be appreciated.

Santtu wrote:
I'd rather not get lung cancer from working with FW resin, not to mention I'd rather get actual value for my money.

I don't suppose you can cite any examples of that happening, can you?

And, heck, given everything that's happened since the start of 2020, you'd think people might understand how to wear a mask when breathing around something they think my be a hazard...

 Dysartes wrote:

Santtu wrote:
I'd rather not get lung cancer from working with FW resin, not to mention I'd rather get actual value for my money.

I don't suppose you can cite any examples of that happening, can you?

And, heck, given everything that's happened since the start of 2020, you'd think people might understand how to wear a mask when breathing around something they think my be a hazard...

You'd like to think that, but you'd be wrong.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

Longstrider wrote:
...but also it's not like GW needs to follow on or owes us explanations.

Owe? No. But a better understanding would be appreciated.

Oh, for sure. Don't get me wrong - it absolutely grinds my gears that Beasts are only TOW and Ogres are only AOS, and that Warriors get into both but with two separate ranges which you could also do for Lizards but didn't. It doesn't super matter to my little group of home gamers because we're just continuing to use the legacy lists, but I would like some symmetry in product offering. I just also get that apparently it doesn't really bother THAT many people.

The scope of the game has changed they said, if it continues to sell well - don’t be surprised if lizards come back in the next edition.

 nathan2004 wrote:
The scope of the game has changed they said, if it continues to sell well - don’t be surprised if lizards come back in the next edition.

Right now I expect that end of 1.0 or start of 2.0 will see them releasing the Kislev and Cathay models that they teased design work for when they started Old World marketing. Those will be 100% new armies (Kislev might get a few classics released on made-to-order as they did have some original old models).

After that I'd expect a shift from old models and old armies to taking the current armies and giving them updated models with a mix of fewer larger wave updates and a few getting perhaps a new leader or such as they update through the edition.

I can't see GW continuing to release old classic armies, esp since they very clearly want as much separation between the studios as possible. Lizardmen are 100% in AoS and it would be crazy to move them back over to Old World unless GW have a long term plan to retire AOS and grow Old World only. I cannot see that being a plan right now.


Once Kislev and Cathay are out GW will have to shift to new designs and sculpts for armies as the nostalgia bug will be over by then.

The onyl force I can see jumping, and honestly I'm shocked they haven't'; is the old Dark Elf stuff. Because the army is basically there and untouched in AoS save for one expansion book that melded it back into Daughters of Khaine. Honestly I still don't get why the DE stuff is still in AoS right now. GW don't seem to be pushing it in AoS at all and they aren't moving it into OW - instead they moved beastmen that honestly were likely doing just fine in AoS.

 nathan2004 wrote:
The scope of the game has changed they said, if it continues to sell well - don’t be surprised if lizards come back in the next edition.

Especially if GW has a surplus of old seraphon kits lying around

 GaroRobe wrote:

 nathan2004 wrote:
The scope of the game has changed they said, if it continues to sell well - don’t be surprised if lizards come back in the next edition.

Especially if GW has a surplus of old seraphon kits lying around

They won't do. Those kits have been off sale for months now; any business would have long since destroyed stock of that age to avoid the unnecessary warehousing costs and use of space.

Wasn't expecting skin wolves! I sold mine and regretted it later.

Greenfield wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:

 nathan2004 wrote:
The scope of the game has changed they said, if it continues to sell well - don’t be surprised if lizards come back in the next edition.

Especially if GW has a surplus of old seraphon kits lying around

They won't do. Those kits have been off sale for months now; any business would have long since destroyed stock of that age to avoid the unnecessary warehousing costs and use of space.

GW has been selling old oop Empire, High Elf, and other former Fantasy models no longer in AoS at events all year. They don't destroy old stock.

I feel like Lizardmen will come back once their current monsters get new AoS versions and you have everything original the Seraphon with it's AoS iconography. That could be a decade or more though and like with skaven I'm not holding my breath.

I see the dark elves coming back after the eventual removal from Cities which should happen this edition of AoS. Ogres I can honestly see getting canned in AoS and brought back over when Cathay becomes a thing. Outside of two characters and a warcry warband they haven't gotten a single thing since AoS dropped in 7 years and those 3 things still fit the ToW style and not really AoS. Similar to beasts.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Greenfield wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:

 nathan2004 wrote:
The scope of the game has changed they said, if it continues to sell well - don’t be surprised if lizards come back in the next edition.

Especially if GW has a surplus of old seraphon kits lying around

They won't do. Those kits have been off sale for months now; any business would have long since destroyed stock of that age to avoid the unnecessary warehousing costs and use of space.

GW has been selling old oop Empire, High Elf, and other former Fantasy models no longer in AoS at events all year. They don't destroy old stock.

At events in the US? Well, they haven't been shipping that stock back to the UK in between events then either, have they? If the Events team hold a certain amount of their own stock in the US warehouse, sure, they might go on taking it to events to sell-off. But if Lizardmen kits aren't appearing on sale at those events either, what does that tell you?

No manufacturer keeps old stock indefinitely. Stock gets destroyed all the time by pretty much every manufacturer.

Greenfield wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:

 nathan2004 wrote:
The scope of the game has changed they said, if it continues to sell well - don’t be surprised if lizards come back in the next edition.

Especially if GW has a surplus of old seraphon kits lying around

They won't do. Those kits have been off sale for months now; any business would have long since destroyed stock of that age to avoid the unnecessary warehousing costs and use of space.

GW doesn't incur additional warehousing costs for holding stock in the UK.

There's a lot of folks in denial that need to accept the idea that AoS is the fantasy flagship game and GW has made its decision about what factions are part of the TOW brand vs the AoS brand


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Baragash wrote:

Greenfield wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:

 nathan2004 wrote:
The scope of the game has changed they said, if it continues to sell well - don’t be surprised if lizards come back in the next edition.

Especially if GW has a surplus of old seraphon kits lying around

They won't do. Those kits have been off sale for months now; any business would have long since destroyed stock of that age to avoid the unnecessary warehousing costs and use of space.

GW doesn't incur additional warehousing costs for holding stock in the UK.

Yes they do. Holding inventory costs money no matter where you have it.

So I'm just assuming the 'returning' Chaos Ogres are all the ones they couldn't sell the first time? Ugliest models they've ever made.

chaos0xomega wrote:
There's a lot of folks in denial that need to accept the idea that AoS is the fantasy flagship game and GW has made its decision about what factions are part of the TOW brand vs the AoS brand


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Baragash wrote:

Greenfield wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:

 nathan2004 wrote:
The scope of the game has changed they said, if it continues to sell well - don’t be surprised if lizards come back in the next edition.

Especially if GW has a surplus of old seraphon kits lying around

They won't do. Those kits have been off sale for months now; any business would have long since destroyed stock of that age to avoid the unnecessary warehousing costs and use of space.

GW doesn't incur additional warehousing costs for holding stock in the UK.

Yes they do. Holding inventory costs money no matter where you have it.

GW's UK warehousing costs are fixed and sunk because they are part of their site. They don't incur marginal costs associated with variable space allocation through 3rd party stock handling.

 kodos wrote:

 Dryaktylus wrote:

 kodos wrote:
depends on what you want, it wasn't even great for that
it made nice mutated Chaos Warriors or Barbarians, but those than were just better looking Forsaken

For me it's a kit for conversions, not just simple kitbash. The Forsaken looked silly because they A) had too much random mutations on one model and B) needed too fit in a regiment. You don't have those restrictions if you use the parts in other games and with other models.

so the 40k players are excited to get a bits box, the same way they were excited about Stormcast to make TrueScale Blood Angels

The kit being good because you want to use it in another game is not really a point as it would take up a slot for release that is filled with a unit useful for TOW

Of course I want it as a bitz box, nothing wrong with it.

And to be fair, did someone asked for those Chaos Ogres? Or Imperial Dwarves? And I mean even the Forsaken look better than those old Slayers or Ogres.

No one asked for those Dwarfs, neiter the metal nor the plastic ones
Hence why this was rather disappointing outside of Miners

Chaos Ogres on the other hand, I know sone people who wanted them back from the day GW released Ogre Kingdoms with the new style plastic ones (as they were a pain to get even when being regular available)

 Baragash wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
There's a lot of folks in denial that need to accept the idea that AoS is the fantasy flagship game and GW has made its decision about what factions are part of the TOW brand vs the AoS brand


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Baragash wrote:

Greenfield wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:

 nathan2004 wrote:
The scope of the game has changed they said, if it continues to sell well - don’t be surprised if lizards come back in the next edition.

Especially if GW has a surplus of old seraphon kits lying around

They won't do. Those kits have been off sale for months now; any business would have long since destroyed stock of that age to avoid the unnecessary warehousing costs and use of space.

GW doesn't incur additional warehousing costs for holding stock in the UK.

Yes they do. Holding inventory costs money no matter where you have it.

GW's UK warehousing costs are fixed and sunk because they are part of their site. They don't incur marginal costs associated with variable space allocation through 3rd party stock handling.

Even if it's in their own space, storing stuff that isn't selling costs money. They may not be actively paying for that space, but then they're not using that space for something else that could sell and make them money.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 Baragash wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
There's a lot of folks in denial that need to accept the idea that AoS is the fantasy flagship game and GW has made its decision about what factions are part of the TOW brand vs the AoS brand


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Baragash wrote:

Greenfield wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:

 nathan2004 wrote:
The scope of the game has changed they said, if it continues to sell well - don’t be surprised if lizards come back in the next edition.

Especially if GW has a surplus of old seraphon kits lying around

They won't do. Those kits have been off sale for months now; any business would have long since destroyed stock of that age to avoid the unnecessary warehousing costs and use of space.

GW doesn't incur additional warehousing costs for holding stock in the UK.

Yes they do. Holding inventory costs money no matter where you have it.

GW's UK warehousing costs are fixed and sunk because they are part of their site. They don't incur marginal costs associated with variable space allocation through 3rd party stock handling.

Even if it's in their own space, storing stuff that isn't selling costs money. They may not be actively paying for that space, but then they're not using that space for something else that could sell and make them money.

Yeah, this. Just taking up space that a live stock item could be using is a cost that doesn’t need to be borne when they could grind down the plastics to use as filler for new sprues and recycler the cardboard.
Storing the moulds makes more sense as they were a significant investment and take up noticeably less space.

Plus, as OW proves, moulds can be put back into production and resume generating an income. They are an investment that you keep.

In fact about the only time you see firms dumping moulds is either if they go through a massive quality upgrade and the old ones are just really bad; or if they are hitting very hard times or fully shutting down a model line entirely

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Even if it's in their own space, storing stuff that isn't selling costs money. They may not be actively paying for that space, but then they're not using that space for something else that could sell and make them money.

This would be true if the warehouse was full, but going by GW's Out of Stock issues, I guess the warehouse is quite empty.

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:
metal horrors. Plastic didn’t do them any justice.

All the plastics had to do was replicate the unnerving barrel-fingers and be 25% smaller. They could have been fabulous!

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Even if it's in their own space, storing stuff that isn't selling costs money. They may not be actively paying for that space, but then they're not using that space for something else that could sell and make them money.

This would be true if the warehouse was full, but going by GW's Out of Stock issues, I guess the warehouse is quite empty.

If the Warehouse is empty because GW can't produce enough stock to keep things in stock then there'd be no big pallets full of unsold stuff because "GW can't keep things stocked fast enough." So it actually adds weight to the argument that there aren't big piles of stuff laying around.

Honestly the only reason they would have lots of stuff hanging around would be if the organisation of the warehouse has broken down and they don't know they've got it. Even if they did chances are they'd do warehouse clearing bundles like they did a while back when they were moving warehouses and just needed to clear what they had faster than normal for a short period.

Considering the stocking issues on multiple lines right now I'm confused why people think GW just has mountains of unsold stuff hanging around. Sure they have big production volume and will have big storage of stuff before sending it overseas in bulk; but they aren't (or at least sanity suggests they shouldn't) be sitting there hoarding models like some kind of model-addicted-dragon.



But again the warehouse won't be empty because its all stock moving through it. A constant churn that's enough to stop everything falling apart but isn't quite enough to overcome all the production demand they have right now.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

This would be true if the warehouse was full, but going by GW's Out of Stock issues, I guess the warehouse is quite empty.

The warehouse is likely full of stuff that isn't out of stock.

I think those Chaos Warriors might be my favourite rank & file models ever. Poses specifically designed with the overall effect in mind and beautiful models individually. They also, importantly, look great from behind.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

This would be true if the warehouse was full, but going by GW's Out of Stock issues, I guess the warehouse is quite empty.

The warehouse is likely full of stuff that isn't out of stock.

Also we know they pre-emptively stockpile stuff before big releases like edition boxes, so they’ll be space put aside for that.

 Overread wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Even if it's in their own space, storing stuff that isn't selling costs money. They may not be actively paying for that space, but then they're not using that space for something else that could sell and make them money.

This would be true if the warehouse was full, but going by GW's Out of Stock issues, I guess the warehouse is quite empty.

If the Warehouse is empty because GW can't produce enough stock to keep things in stock then there'd be no big pallets full of unsold stuff because "GW can't keep things stocked fast enough." So it actually adds weight to the argument that there aren't big piles of stuff laying around.

Honestly the only reason they would have lots of stuff hanging around would be if the organisation of the warehouse has broken down and they don't know they've got it. Even if they did chances are they'd do warehouse clearing bundles like they did a while back when they were moving warehouses and just needed to clear what they had faster than normal for a short period.

Considering the stocking issues on multiple lines right now I'm confused why people think GW just has mountains of unsold stuff hanging around. Sure they have big production volume and will have big storage of stuff before sending it overseas in bulk; but they aren't (or at least sanity suggests they shouldn't) be sitting there hoarding models like some kind of model-addicted-dragon.



But again the warehouse won't be empty because its all stock moving through it. A constant churn that's enough to stop everything falling apart but isn't quite enough to overcome all the production demand they have right now.

The point is that storing old stock is only an opportunity cost if you have something else to put into that storage space. Obviously the warehouse isn't completely empty, but it may not be completely full and therefore storing some old stock might be feasible. Breaking all those boxes open to recycle the parts is a labour opportunity cost that could be used for something else if the old stock isn't currently in the way. Not saying this is happening, but it is feasible.

Also, some popular lines being out of stock doesn't mean everything is. Stuff isn't equally popular.