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Silo'd off from a N&R thread to prevent it derailing and because it is an interesting niche. See relevant discussion below.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

It seems quite odd that you think that the Adeptus Arbites, who do have their own ships, would be out of place to be on a Prison Ship,

They have their own ships used for boarding and customs operations.

That doesn't mean they have their own prison barges. Nor do, as far as I can tell, they seem to be the ones in charge of military justice or abhuman elements of the Guard.

but the Imperium's Elite soldiers who are part of the Ordo Tempestus (Not the Officio Prefectus, unless I've just missed something. Neither the wiki or lexicanum says they're directly connected)

Lexicanum directs you to C: Militarum Tempestus if you read the "Ordo Tempestus" bit.

Here's why:

C: Militarum Tempestus wrote:
The Ordo Tempestus is amongst the most rigidly codified of all Imperial organizations, for its men form the backbone of the Astra Militarum. Though the organization is technically a sub-faction governed by the Adeptus Administratum, it enjoys a far greater amount of autonomy than the regiments that often fight alongside it. The ordo's ranks are primarily comprised of Commissars and Tempestus Scions, though they have often included specialist factions mysteriously absent from Imperial records. In every theater of war across the galaxy, the ordo's men work alongside the incalculable might of the Astra Militarum, their elite training complementing the sheer manpower of the Imperial Guard.

If the ordo provides the rigid skeleton of discipline that holds the Astra Militarum together, it is the Commissars who are the minds of the operations. The Officio Prefectus governs and controls the regiments of Tempestus Scions and Imperial Guardsmen alike, ensuring that their military force is put to the right use in the Emperor's name.

Lexicanum's "Scions" article is...lacking, at best. It seems to still conflate all the "elite/carapace guardsmen" variants with Scions and just call it a day. They have Catachan Devils, Krieg Grenadiers(which was, per Dead Man Walking and some of the DKoK lore in the Vraks books, a volunteer/suicide run rather than an "elite" organization), and Planetary Defence Force Kill Teams in the same breath.

and who we haven't seen in anything relating to a context of a Prison Ship,

C: Militarum Tempestus has them mind-scrubbing failed candidates and sending them to the Mechanicus as "cargo". They have ships for conveyance.


As an aside: I understand it's a 6E book. I also understand that they just haven't published anything big about the Scions.

and also have them just happen to be wearing gear reiminscent of Arbites/Enforcers rather than their usual Scion gear somehow wouldn't be out of place.

It's an outline of a relatively common helmet design, not a signature item. As mentioned before the Skitarii Vanguard have the sallet helms. The Indigan Praefects(a Guard Regiment specializing in hunting beasts and Tyrannic beasts, commonly shown in art as having the Skitarii helmet with GSC styled "combat suits" plus Scion chestplates) also have that design of helmet.

Hell, it looks like Ursula Creed is even rocking one:

Spoiler:

I could jump up and down screaming about the antennae that can be seen at 0:51 seconds in the teaser being a Guard/Scion style rather than anything else we've seen from the Imperium--but that doesn't mean that it's 100% those things.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
My own understanding of this is that the Officio Prefectus and Ordo Tempestus are both branches of the Department Munitorum, and thus operate together as per their respective jurisdictions. However, they don't appear to hold any additional special relationship beyond their shared heritage of the Schola Progenium. For example, Commissars are also routinely attached to standard regiments.

Could scions staff a Commissariat barge? Probably. Doesn't feel like something they would do routinely though, unless there was something especially high-value and/or dangerous about the prisoners. We do know scion gear is void-proofed enough for combat operations, so they would be capable in this role.


As a side note, the Lexicanum article is actually a stormtrooper article (a much broader term) that got renamed to scions (a type of stormtroopers produced by the Schola Progenium). I don't agree with everything in that article, particularly lumping Catachan Devils in there. DKoK grenadiers are elite troops though, as per the IA Siege of Vraks books, and this was reflected in their rules.

As I don't have the Tempestus Codex I can't refute or verify all of Kan's claims.

That being said, the point about variant Troops ignores that the Lex article specifically states that the listed units are comparable to Scions, not that they are Scions. A Cadian Kasrkin or Catachan Devil won't practice the same tactics as Scions do but at the same time are still comparable to them in terms of equipment and expertise.

As for the part about sending failed candidates to the Mechanicus, Kan assumes that the Ordo has ships when as a part of the wider Astra Militarum (of which the Prefectus/Commissariat is also a part) they do not as per the Army/Navy split after the Horus Heresy. They often have Valkyries seconded to their service but these are still Navy assets in the same way that Guard Regiments will have assault craft seconded. Naval Commissars do exist but they fall under the command of Navy officers and are entirely separate from their Guard equivalents.

 Gert wrote:
As I don't have the Tempestus Codex I can't refute or verify all of Kan's claims.

That being said, the point about variant Troops ignores that the Lex article specifically states that the listed units are comparable to Scions, not that they are Scions. A Cadian Kasrkin or Catachan Devil won't practice the same tactics as Scions do but at the same time are still comparable to them in terms of equipment and expertise.

As for the part about sending failed candidates to the Mechanicus, Kan assumes that the Ordo has ships when as a part of the wider Astra Militarum (of which the Prefectus/Commissariat is also a part) they do not as per the Army/Navy split after the Horus Heresy. They often have Valkyries seconded to their service but these are still Navy assets in the same way that Guard Regiments will have assault craft seconded. Naval Commissars do exist but they fall under the command of Navy officers and are entirely separate from their Guard equivalents.

That is a fair point- the "Officio Prefectus barge" in the original discussion is probably an Imperial Navy vessel that has been seconded to the commissariat to transport criminals, or is under the control of the fleet Commissariat not the guard branch.

Edit: re. Catachan Devils- they stand out because they are not equivalent in the same way as the others. Kasrkin, DKoK grenadiers, Armageddon stormtroopers- they are all equipped and armoured similar to scions, as heavy infantry, albeit with many of them having excellent capabilities in infiltration. Catachan Devils are light infantry infiltrators, they are not capable of doing the heavy infantry roles the other units in the list can, and if you include them you may as well include all AM veteran units.

The Arbites do have their own fleet. It consists of patrol craft, counter-insurgency vessels as well as a vast array of transports, logistics ships, and other support craft. Prison ships are a thing because that's how the Arbites transport criminals and prisoners to Penal Worlds to serve their sentences. If a military official is found guilty by the Commissariat and needs to be transported somewhere, then they are transported on a Navy vessel in the brig under the watchful eye of Guard Commissars and soldiers selected for detention detail. This could very well be Scions or in most cases, it will be seconded soldiers from a given Regiment or Naval Armsmen.
Again the Commissariat may have assault craft or transports seconded to their service but these are still Navy assets that are returned when a given assignment is completed.

 Gert wrote:
As I don't have the Tempestus Codex I can't refute or verify all of Kan's claims.

That being said, the point about variant Troops ignores that the Lex article specifically states that the listed units are comparable to Scions, not that they are Scions. A Cadian Kasrkin or Catachan Devil won't practice the same tactics as Scions do but at the same time are still comparable to them in terms of equipment and expertise.

"Comparable to Scions" is a ridiculously vague yardstick. What metric are you using? Is it because they're "elite"? If so, then there should be a hell of a lot more units in there.
Maybe it's the carapace armor? Or the hellguns?

It's a lazy article that I've suggested be changed. It hasn't been.

As for the part about sending failed candidates to the Mechanicus, Kan assumes that the Ordo has ships when as a part of the wider Astra Militarum (of which the Prefectus/Commissariat is also a part) they do not as per the Army/Navy split after the Horus Heresy.

It's spelled out in black and white that it is an Ordo Tempestus ship used.

Reminder that the Ordo Tempestus is part of the Schola Progenium system, which transports orphaned children regularly to their facilities.

They often have Valkyries seconded to their service but these are still Navy assets in the same way that Guard Regiments will have assault craft seconded.

Negative. They have their own assets, at least lore-wise.


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 Gert wrote:
The Arbites do have their own fleet. It consists of patrol craft, counter-insurgency vessels as well as a vast array of transports, logistics ships, and other support craft.

Someone's on Lexicanum...

This is from Battlefleet Gothic Magazine, circa 2000-2001. Maybe it's been published since, but at that point you might as well be citing Codex Imperialis.

Prison ships are a thing because that's how the Arbites transport criminals and prisoners to Penal Worlds to serve their sentences.

Citation needed.

Never seen mention of Arbites prison ships. There's been Inquisitorial, Commissiariat and Munitorum run ones mentioned over the years though.

If a military official is found guilty by the Commissariat and needs to be transported somewhere, then they are transported on a Navy vessel in the brig under the watchful eye of Guard Commissars and soldiers selected for detention detail. This could very well be Scions or in most cases, it will be seconded soldiers from a given Regiment or Naval Armsmen.

Considering the most relevant novel(Traitor General) had their high-value prisoners escorted by Commissariat assets from "Section S"(a Stormtrooper-esque branch reporting directly to a Lord-Commissar), that doesn't seem to be the case.

The problem exists that Scions are still relatively new in terms of the 40k lore.

Again the Commissariat may have assault craft or transports seconded to their service but these are still Navy assets that are returned when a given assignment is completed.

C: Tempestus literally had the Scions having their own Valkyries. They didn't seem to have voidcraft of their own though.

 Kanluwen wrote:
"Comparable to Scions" is a ridiculously vague yardstick. What metric are you using? Is it because they're "elite"? If so, then there should be a hell of a lot more units in there.
Maybe it's the carapace armor? Or the hellguns?

I mean all of the above. Scions are elite soldiers of the Guard with advanced weapons and tactics above the normal soldiers. Troops like the Kasrkin, Krieg Grenadiers, or Armageddon Storm Troopers are elite soldiers of their Regiments with advanced weapons and tactics. The difference between the two is that Scions are largely used for missions similar to modern Paratroopers whereas the equivalents vary from role to role, that and the Scions are trained from childhood for their roles.

It's spelled out in black and white that it is an Ordo Tempestus ship used.

I mean, I have no way to refute that beyond the fact that Guard forces don't have naval assets. So if you could provide a citation that would satisfy me.

Reminder that the Ordo Tempestus is part of the Schola Progenium system, which transports orphaned children regularly to their facilities.

Except there is an extensive civilian transport network alongside military supply lines. Have you got anything to suggest that the Schola has dedicated transports assigned to its service?

Negative. They have their own assets, at least lore-wise.

I think you are conflating "Has in the army list" with "Has within their dedicated equipment pool". Valkyries are Navy assets in the same way that Arvus Lighters, Devourer Dropships, or Aquila Landers are. They are seconded within a given theatre but are often given unit insignia to denote which sections of an army they are assigned to.

 Gert wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
"Comparable to Scions" is a ridiculously vague yardstick. What metric are you using? Is it because they're "elite"? If so, then there should be a hell of a lot more units in there.
Maybe it's the carapace armor? Or the hellguns?

I mean all of the above. Scions are elite soldiers of the Guard with advanced weapons and tactics above the normal soldiers. Troops like the Kasrkin, Krieg Grenadiers, or Armageddon Storm Troopers are elite soldiers of their Regiments with advanced weapons and tactics. The difference between the two is that Scions are largely used for missions similar to modern Paratroopers whereas the equivalents vary from role to role, that and the Scions are trained from childhood for their roles.

So basically, you're just gonna double-down on their ridiculous metric.

Got it.

So Gaunt's Ghosts, Tallarn Desert Raiders, etc all belong on that list too.

It's a dumb metric. Very few of those groups actually have anything beyond surface comparisons to the Scions.

It's spelled out in black and white that it is an Ordo Tempestus ship used.

I mean, I have no way to refute that beyond the fact that Guard forces don't have naval assets. So if you could provide a citation that would satisfy me.

Cool, you'll get it when you provide an actual citation from the BFG magazine cited in the Arbites article on Lexicanum. It even gave you the issue, should be easy for you to find!

Reminder that the Ordo Tempestus is part of the Schola Progenium system, which transports orphaned children regularly to their facilities.

Except there is an extensive civilian transport network alongside military supply lines. Have you got anything to suggest that the Schola has dedicated transports assigned to its service?

You got anything to suggest that the Arbites maintain the prison ships used?

Because I can point to a novella published under 5 years ago that says Rogue Trader households are used to move the 'standard' prisoners from prison planet to prison planet, with local nobility/organizations running the day-to-day bits while Munitorum transports are used for military prisoners and that the Munitorum runs those planets where military prisoners are kept..

Negative. They have their own assets, at least lore-wise.

I think you are conflating "Has in the army list" with "Has within their dedicated equipment pool". Valkyries are Navy assets in the same way that Arvus Lighters, Devourer Dropships, or Aquila Landers are. They are seconded within a given theatre but are often given unit insignia to denote which sections of an army they are assigned to.

The Phantine Airborne say "hello".
The Harakoni Warhawks say "hello".
The Elysian Drop Troops say "hello".

And no, I'm not conflating. There's a specific mention given in C: Tempestus of the 73rd Eagles regiment being granted a fleet of Valkyries after saving a Forge World from Chaos-backed raiders.
There's another mention of the Mechanicus specially modifying the Psian Jackals' Valkyries to be void-hardened, allowing for boarding actions or low-orbit insertions.

Hey folks, long time listener, first time caller. I just had to jump in on a couple of points here.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Negative. They have their own assets, at least lore-wise.

I think you are conflating "Has in the army list" with "Has within their dedicated equipment pool". Valkyries are Navy assets in the same way that Arvus Lighters, Devourer Dropships, or Aquila Landers are. They are seconded within a given theatre but are often given unit insignia to denote which sections of an army they are assigned to.

The Phantine Airborne say "hello".
The Harakoni Warhawks say "hello".
The Elysian Drop Troops say "hello".

You've brought up three regiments that are specifically mentioned as being exceptions to the Guard/Navy split rule. I'm not sure how that helps your argument or how the equipping of Astra Militarum regiments impacts the equipping of Militarum Tempestus regiments.

And no, I'm not conflating. There's a specific mention given in C: Tempestus of the 73rd Eagles regiment being granted a fleet of Valkyries after saving a Forge World from Chaos-backed raiders.
There's another mention of the Mechanicus specially modifying the Psian Jackals' Valkyries to be void-hardened, allowing for boarding actions or low-orbit insertions.

You've failed to mention that at the top of the very page which features those stories, there's a sentence that reads: "During combat operations a Tempestus force will be granted dispensation to repaint these aircraft in the colours of their regiment."

Why would they need special permission to repaint aircraft that are already part of their armoury?

There are certainly exceptions to the rule - as you've proven - but that sentence alone pretty much confirms that Valkyries are usually seconded to scion regiments from the navy.

And if you want to jump in while trying to argue against me, go ahead and quote the specifics of the 73rd Eagles' dispensation.

They were granted a fleet of Valkyries by the Mechanicus itself. They didn't get them from the Navy. They got them from the Mechanicus.


The reason to mention those specific examples of exceptions to the rules is just that:
They're examples of the exceptions to the rules.

 Kanluwen wrote:
And if you want to jump in while trying to argue against me, go ahead and quote the specifics of the 73rd Eagles' dispensation.

They were granted a fleet of Valkyries by the Mechanicus itself. They didn't get them from the Navy. They got them from the Mechanicus.

Well that makes sense. The Eagles helped out the Mechanicus and the Mechanicus makes Valkyries. I'm sure their donation raised quite a few eyebrows too! It doesn't change the fact that they're most commonly flown by the Navy, however.

The reason to mention those specific examples of exceptions to the rules is just that:
They're examples of the exceptions to the rules.

Examples featuring two regiments out of how many thousands? We can assume that there are more we just haven't heard about but that's not enough to assume that the Officio Prefectus or Militarum Tempestus have their own voidcraft.

On balance of probability it's much more likely that this prison barge has been seconded to them from another organisation.

Nowhere did I say anything about the Militarum Tempestus having voidcraft. I said Valkyries.

The Ordo Tempestus does not equal the Militarum Tempestus.

Gotta love a thread where people demand sources while providing nothing but Lexicanum summaries and then just argue in circles.

So I have pulled out the 6th edition Militarum Tempestus codex.

Firstly, I am pretty sure I was wrong above. Whilst the wording is a little unclear, page 14 strongly suggests that the Ordo Militarum is a division of the Departmento Munitorum* that contains two main branches- the Officio Prefectus (Commissars) and the Militarum Tempestus (Scions). So they do have a closer relationship than I previously realised.

Codex: Militarum Tempestus (6th edition), page 14 wrote:If the Ordo provides the rigid skeleton of discipline that holds the Astra Militarum together, it is the Commissars who are the mind of the operation. The Officio Prefectus governs and controls the regiments of the Tempestus Scions and Imperial Guardsmen alike...
...those who survive their training are assigned to a scions regiment and join the Militarum Tempestus in earnest.

Secondly, page 34 also strongly indicates that Militarum Tempestus regiments do not routinely have integral Valkyries (the inference being they are Imperial Navy craft), and they are attached as needed/available:

Codex: Militarum Tempestus (6th edition), page 34 wrote:During combat operations a Tempestus force will be granted dispensation to repaint these aircraft in the colours of their regiment

As mentioned, some regiments have acquired their own Valkyries not provided by the Imperial Navy. This looks to be the exception, not the rule, as with the wider Astra Militarum. The 7th and 8th edition AM codices say this about Valkyries:

Codex: Astra Militarum (8th edition), page 63 wrote:With a few notable exceptions, most Astra Militarum formations will have a small number of Valkyries attached to them on a temporary basis; such craft are, first and foremost, the property of the Aeronautica Imperialis. During extended ground operations, however, they are usually repainted to match their assigned regiment, and their pilots report directly to that regiment's senior officer.

This correlates nicely with the Militarum Tempestus quote and indicates integral Valkyries are a rare perk for even Scions.

Reading between the lines from this, a "Officio Prefectus prison barge" is almost certainly an Imperial Navy vessel tasked with transporting prisoners on behalf of the Officio Prefectus, in the same manner that Imperial Guard troop transports are not actually operated by the Imperial Guard directly, but supplied and crewed by the Imperial Navy's merchant marine (this makes up the majority of all merchant shipping within the Imperium). An independent merchant vessel or Rogue Trader could have been contracted out, but this is less likely. If the vessel is a system ship incapable of warp travel it could be controlled directly by the Imperial Guard, but the Officio Prefectusas part of the Astra Militarum directly controlling a warp-capable vessel is almost certainly not the case- as has been established lore for a long time. This snippet describes it well:

Codex: Imperial Guard (3rd edition, second codex), page 7 wrote:The link between fleet and army was severed- never again were Imperial Guard commanders given direct control over interstellar ships.

Is the Gallowdark near enough to a system for a system ship? I don't know this information. It is also not known what organisation provides fleet Commissars, so it is possible the Ordo Prefectus has a separate Navy branch that does operate ships.

So scions guarding a prison barge is certainly plausible, but seems unlikely unless there is a high-value or highly-dangerous cargo. The Militarum Tempestus codex does describe scions being seconded to Inquisitors for escorting Black ships.


*It says a subdivision of the Adeptus Administratum, but elsewhere the Commissariat is described as being part of the Departmento Munitorum. I think it is safe to assume that the Ordo Tempestus is part of the Departmento Munitorum, which is part of the wider Adeptus Administratum (itself a branch of the Adeptus Terra).


Re. the Lexicanum article. Most of those units are elite, carapace-armoured heavy infantry equipped with hotshot lasguns. All of these are capable of spearheading assaults, most of them can also perform aerial insertions or infiltration operations. There are clear parallels. Some are odd choices to include, sharing only elite status but operating in a different fashion- the Catachan Devils are the most notable example as light infantry infiltrators and saboteurs. I agree these should not be in that article.