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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Yeah, I get setting = all rules are BS, but from a gameplay mechanic, S8 pistols for 5pts on a cannoness make her stupidly powerful. Same with cheap spammed plasma pistols in guard officers. Plasma breaks the game. Keep Melta because there is a tradeoff with distance and # of shots, but plasma is a anti-tank weapon with zero downsides. In pistol form. Make it heavy 1 so it can't be used in CC or make it kill the user on a 1 or 2. Just balance it for the cost.
You're a few weeks early to be posting April Fools jokes.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Yeah, I get setting = all rules are BS, but from a gameplay mechanic, S8 pistols for 5pts on a cannoness make her stupidly powerful. Same with cheap spammed plasma pistols in guard officers. Plasma breaks the game. Keep Melta because there is a tradeoff with distance and # of shots, but plasma is a anti-tank weapon with zero downsides. In pistol form. Make it heavy 1 so it can't be used in CC or make it kill the user on a 1 or 2. Just balance it for the cost.
You're a few weeks early to be posting April Fools jokes.
No need for that.
But, I agree I don't get the problem with Plasma Pistols. On a character? They're secondary weapons. Characters are usually about the power weapons. Even on the SM Sergeants a power weapon is usually preferred to a plasma pistol but as long as you're doing one, do both - plus like the now with the Guard Sergeant "hidden powerfists" are nothing new to the game. One could even argue Guard need it more than most. From a fluff standpoint I question if a Guard sergeant is "important" enough to rate a plasma pistol, but meh. Maybe he's a Colonel's pet. But by and large, the plasma pistol is either a fairly insignificant part of the unit (vs 4-5 WS2+ S5 -3 D2 attacks) or a significant part of the Take All Comers role the unit is supposed to have. An assault Intercessor Sgt with a Thunderhammer and plasma pistol is the "heavy weapon" of the Assault Intercessors squad. We're not talking about Company Veterans where you can give everyone in the squad a Meltagun and Storm Shield (Because then it's not "free"). Plasma Pistols are free for Vanguard Vets, but that means giving up the Thunderhammer, the Stormshield, or the 2LC - and if you do that enough to be significant, you don't have the SS effect you took the vanguard vets for in the first place. If you do all Plasma Pistol and Power Sword (which I think is an underappreciated and viable build as an intermediate step between Evis Assaults and TH/SSVV) - you're back to the Characters where the 1 plasma shot is secondary to the multiple power sword ginsu attacks.
To put it another way - lets say there are two different kinds of units: Specialist and Generalist. The Tac Squad is a Generalist. It should be able to (in theory) take on everything from a Grot to a Knight (with Points differentials primarily dictating the success of that attempt). The sniper scouts? They're closer to specialists. I think Specialists should be less common, and I think making grenades better is probably a better solution to the generalist unit being able to Take All Comers, but I don't design the game. Having seen some people decide Assault Marines can get squatted because Vanguard Vets do the same thing but better - I could be the one that's wrong and too many players are just too rigid.
thats the whole schtick of the flamers, theyre good overwatch weapons. thing is, its so trivial to deny an overwatch that they become useless anyway (unless youre some tzeentch flamers that are clearly TOO good)
I still don't understand how people weren't denying that overwatch on the flamers...
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Yeah, I get setting = all rules are BS, but from a gameplay mechanic, S8 pistols for 5pts on a cannoness make her stupidly powerful. Same with cheap spammed plasma pistols in guard officers. Plasma breaks the game. Keep Melta because there is a tradeoff with distance and # of shots, but plasma is a anti-tank weapon with zero downsides. In pistol form. Make it heavy 1 so it can't be used in CC or make it kill the user on a 1 or 2. Just balance it for the cost.
You're a few weeks early to be posting April Fools jokes.
No need for that.
But, I agree I don't get the problem with Plasma Pistols. On a character? They're secondary weapons. Characters are usually about the power weapons. Even on the SM Sergeants a power weapon is usually preferred to a plasma pistol but as long as you're doing one, do both - plus like the now with the Guard Sergeant "hidden powerfists" are nothing new to the game. One could even argue Guard need it more than most. From a fluff standpoint I question if a Guard sergeant is "important" enough to rate a plasma pistol, but meh. Maybe he's a Colonel's pet. But by and large, the plasma pistol is either a fairly insignificant part of the unit (vs 4-5 WS2+ S5 -3 D2 attacks) or a significant part of the Take All Comers role the unit is supposed to have. An assault Intercessor Sgt with a Thunderhammer and plasma pistol is the "heavy weapon" of the Assault Intercessors squad. We're not talking about Company Veterans where you can give everyone in the squad a Meltagun and Storm Shield (Because then it's not "free"). Plasma Pistols are free for Vanguard Vets, but that means giving up the Thunderhammer, the Stormshield, or the 2LC - and if you do that enough to be significant, you don't have the SS effect you took the vanguard vets for in the first place. If you do all Plasma Pistol and Power Sword (which I think is an underappreciated and viable build as an intermediate step between Evis Assaults and TH/SSVV) - you're back to the Characters where the 1 plasma shot is secondary to the multiple power sword ginsu attacks.
To put it another way - lets say there are two different kinds of units: Specialist and Generalist. The Tac Squad is a Generalist. It should be able to (in theory) take on everything from a Grot to a Knight (with Points differentials primarily dictating the success of that attempt). The sniper scouts? They're closer to specialists. I think Specialists should be less common, and I think making grenades better is probably a better solution to the generalist unit being able to Take All Comers, but I don't design the game. Having seen some people decide Assault Marines can get squatted because Vanguard Vets do the same thing but better - I could be the one that's wrong and too many players are just too rigid.
It's almost like Snipers should be in their own bracket, where only the "elites" hang out....
I think you're right by the way. There should be a massive distance between Tacs who can take bolters or swords and pistols, or Vets who can take any damn thing.
It's almost like Snipers should be in their own bracket, where only the "elites" hang out....
Actually I'd put scouts back in Troops. Elites should be better than troops generalists. Terminators, Assorted Veterans, Aggressors and such.
I think you're right by the way. There should be a massive distance between Tacs who can take bolters or swords and pistols, or Vets who can take any damn thing.
I wouldn't say massive either. Distance sure, but not massive. Melee is - no pun intended - a double edged sword. Part of the tradeoff for those Thunder Hammers and power fists is the melee range. You get strike backs, and you get wasted turns trying to get into charge range. Other things to keep in mind - one of the reasons I'm entertained by people who want to squat Assault Squads because Vanguard vets "Do the same thing but better" is that TH/SS isn't always better. Someone running Eradicators probably doesn't want TH/SS - it doubles up threat bands, and its probably overkill for a threat band you need some coverage on that Assault Squads can do. Sure if you don't have Multi or Melta Rifles you may want some Thunder Hammers, but if you do, you may want a bunch of Astartes Chainswords. To put it another way Eradicators aren't "better" vs a 20 mob of Boys even though they have S8 super guns.
It's almost like Snipers should be in their own bracket, where only the "elites" hang out....
Actually I'd put scouts back in Troops. Elites should be better than troops generalists. Terminators, Assorted Veterans, Aggressors and such.
I think you're right by the way. There should be a massive distance between Tacs who can take bolters or swords and pistols, or Vets who can take any damn thing.
I wouldn't say massive either. Distance sure, but not massive. Melee is - no pun intended - a double edged sword. Part of the tradeoff for those Thunder Hammers and power fists is the melee range. You get strike backs, and you get wasted turns trying to get into charge range. Other things to keep in mind - one of the reasons I'm entertained by people who want to squat Assault Squads because Vanguard vets "Do the same thing but better" is that TH/SS isn't always better. Someone running Eradicators probably doesn't want TH/SS - it doubles up threat bands, and its probably overkill for a threat band you need some coverage on that Assault Squads can do. Sure if you don't have Multi or Melta Rifles you may want some Thunder Hammers, but if you do, you may want a bunch of Astartes Chainswords. To put it another way Eradicators aren't "better" vs a 20 mob of Boys even though they have S8 super guns.
This is where you lose me. Nothing about what slot a unit falls in matters. Which is more "elite"? 200pts of Custodian Guard, or 200 points of Kasarkin?
I counted 54 events.
Of those 54, I counted only 8 SM #1 finishes. That’s a 14.8148 #1 finish rate.
And of those 54 how many are using the AoO...you know...the whole purpose of this thread? Oh, you didn't even think to look and included all the tournaments from before AoO was used to come up with that number...cool.
Also, as to everyone saying "Grey Knights aren't Codex Space Marine!" Ok cool story. What is the point of this thread? Talking about how FREE UPGRADES tied with POINTS COSTS are going to make space marines the top tier armies. So what is different between Space Marines and Grey Knights? they get different names and different weapons, how about the points changes that was the main point? Its exactly the same so lets not try to play semantic games here and stick to the key points. And no, I don't give a damn what you think. Grey Knights are just Space Marines...except silvery grey.
More GTs from Last week
Wheat City Open: Marines finished 3rd and 4th
Heroic Scale Gamers Houston Open: Highest Marine was 5th, yep another Grey Knights player.
Melee At Shiloh: Marines were 2nd and 4th (They also took 5th, 6th, and 8th)
Renegades Open: Echoes Of War 5: Marines took 3rd
Team Battle Brothers 40k Major GT: Marines took 3rd (Also took 5th, 6th, 7th and 10th)
The Pecking Order: Peeps of War GT: Marines took 2nd (Also 5th)
Brighton 40K Tournament III: Marines took 4th (And 6th and 8th)
A side note from this, I have to say I really hate the new "Strength of Schedule" Scoring mechanic. As an example, TEAM BATTLE BROTHERS, 2nd place through 9th place all had 1 loss so were tied by wins, under the old (in my opinion BETTER) system they would have been ranked by points, in the new way, they judge who had the tougher opponents and award tournament placing based on that.
2nd Place: Imperial Guard 447pts
3rd Place: Iron Hands 453pts
4th Place: Genestealers: 452
5th Place: Iron Hands 446pts
6th Place: Dark Angels 435pts
7th Place: Iron Hands: 431pts
8th Place: Space elves: 409pts
9th Place: Custards/SoB: 394pts
Under the old system most of these would have remained the same, but 2nd-4th would have been switched around so that the IG player finished 4th not 2nd. Not a fan of this because the players don't have anyway to dictate who they play against and therefore they lose solely based upon a random number generator matching them with a weaker opponent compared to someone who beat them who may have played the same people except had a harder opponent once.
This is where you lose me. Nothing about what slot a unit falls in matters. Which is more "elite"? 200pts of Custodian Guard, or 200 points of Kasarkin?
Elite (Slot) not elite quality.
Edit to Add: And (at least right now) Slot does matter, because its the limiter. 12 Troops, 6 Elites, 3 FA, 3 HS. Generalists in Troops and Elites, Specialists in FA and HS.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/26 04:50:29
I counted 54 events.
Of those 54, I counted only 8 SM #1 finishes. That’s a 14.8148 #1 finish rate.
And of those 54 how many are using the AoO...you know...the whole purpose of this thread? Oh, you didn't even think to look and included all the tournaments from before AoO was used to come up with that number...cool.
Also, as to everyone saying "Grey Knights aren't Codex Space Marine!" Ok cool story. What is the point of this thread? Talking about how FREE UPGRADES tied with POINTS COSTS are going to make space marines the top tier armies. So what is different between Space Marines and Grey Knights? they get different names and different weapons, how about the points changes that was the main point? Its exactly the same so lets not try to play semantic games here and stick to the key points. And no, I don't give a damn what you think. Grey Knights are just Space Marines...except silvery grey.
So what are your thoughts on guard squads breaking the game with free upgrades, or chaos legionnaires, or plague marines or the multitude of other units who've had free upgrades longer and/or are "Marines in a different colour"?
The results seem overall OK tbh, the lists placing high aren't spamming loads of free stuff and I think we can likely conclude you're largely off the mark now.
SemperMortis wrote: Also, as to everyone saying "Grey Knights aren't Codex Space Marine!" Ok cool story. What is the point of this thread? Talking about how FREE UPGRADES tied with POINTS COSTS are going to make space marines the top tier armies. So what is different between Space Marines and Grey Knights? they get different names and different weapons, how about the points changes that was the main point? Its exactly the same so lets not try to play semantic games here and stick to the key points. And no, I don't give a damn what you think. Grey Knights are just Space Marines...except silvery grey.
So now we know you don't know what you're talking about? Good to know.
Your OP opened with three examples of units you were worried about - none of which can be taken by Grey Knights. Neither can the "monster point saving via free upgrades" list on page 1. They were never brought up as a point of concern by you until you started to look at results and decided they needed to be rolled in with Space Marine results, despite being a different Codex, with a far more limited roster.
Take the L, accept that you were wrong, and move on.
SemperMortis wrote: More GTs from Last week
Wheat City Open: Marines finished 3rd and 4th
Heroic Scale Gamers Houston Open: Highest Marine was 5th, yep another Grey Knights player.
Melee At Shiloh: Marines were 2nd and 4th (They also took 5th, 6th, and 8th)
Renegades Open: Echoes Of War 5: Marines took 3rd
Team Battle Brothers 40k Major GT: Marines took 3rd (Also took 5th, 6th, 7th and 10th)
The Pecking Order: Peeps of War GT: Marines took 2nd (Also 5th)
Brighton 40K Tournament III: Marines took 4th (And 6th and 8th)
I'll take a look at these later, to see if/how you've selectively reported things. These are all completed events from 18/19 Feb - ITC does show some events for this weekend, but they're still underway, as far as I can see.
SemperMortis wrote: A side note from this, I have to say I really hate the new "Strength of Schedule" Scoring mechanic. As an example, TEAM BATTLE BROTHERS, 2nd place through 9th place all had 1 loss so were tied by wins, under the old (in my opinion BETTER) system they would have been ranked by points, in the new way, they judge who had the tougher opponents and award tournament placing based on that.
Strength of Schedule is hardly a new measure when it comes to tournaments, and is generally viewed as the best representation of how good the opponents were for a given player as they navigated the event. Someone who, deliberately or otherwise, took the Swiss Gambit of losing their first game and then winning the remainder is likely to have played people towards the bottom of each bracket as the event goes on, compared to someone who won all their games except the last one.
Just because you don't like it, does not mean it doesn't work.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
So what are your thoughts on guard squads breaking the game with free upgrades, or chaos legionnaires, or plague marines or the multitude of other units who've had free upgrades longer and/or are "Marines in a different colour"?
The results seem overall OK tbh, the lists placing high aren't spamming loads of free stuff and I think we can likely conclude you're largely off the mark now.
My opinion was that based upon the sheer number of points cuts and free weapon upgrades that Marines got (Including Grey Knights), that they would jump to top tier. The problem isn't solely based upon free gear but rather how it can be utilized by certain factions, my best guess was Dark Angels and Iron Hands being dominant and so far that seems to be about right.
As far as Guard and Chaos units? they are a different animal entirely. For starters, none of those other armies you mentioned make up a large % of the tournament scene so the effect they have would be felt to a much smaller extent, next, all of those factions haven't exactly been running away with the tournament scene either. IG are doing REALLY well right now thanks to their new codex, how much of that is due to free upgrades on infantry units is debatable and if you want to open up a separate thread to talk about it I'd love to learn more and put my two cents in.
And as far as not taking free upgrades? They are. DA for example, they are almost universally spamming Deathwing Terminators with Free TH/SS, taking the FREE watcher and the FREE cyclone missile launcher. As an example, the guy who placed 3rd at Nurglemania took a Deathwing Command Squad, 3 Deathwing Squads and 2 Terminator Assault squads totaling 50 Terminator models, 10 of whom were running around with Lightning Claws and the other 40 had TH/SS, watchers, Homers, Cyclone missile launchers. So that list had over 600pts of free upgrades on the terminators. I'll gladly admit I was wrong in that I thought a lot more players would be spamming cheap infantry squads with lots of free upgrades, but even without Tac squads running around with 2x the points in free gear; players are still taking free upgrades to the tune of 200-500pts.
So now we know you don't know what you're talking about? Good to know.
Your OP opened with three examples of units you were worried about - none of which can be taken by Grey Knights. Neither can the "monster point saving via free upgrades" list on page 1. They were never brought up as a point of concern by you until you started to look at results and decided they needed to be rolled in with Space Marine results, despite being a different Codex, with a far more limited roster.
Ah yes, my mistake, painting your minis grey makes them a completely different army than regular Space Marines. I mean...its no longer a Captain leading the army its a...*Checks notes* Ah yes, Brother-Captain. And its not a Librarian its a Brother Librarian. But the troops are 100% different right? I mean, they don't even have similar names and their statlines are totally different. I mean, a Tac Marine is M6 WS3 BS3 S4 T4 2W A1 LD7 3+ save and is equipped with Frag/krak grenades and a Bolter. While the Grey Knights "Strike Squad" is M6 WS3 BS3 S4 T4 2W A3 LD7 3+ save and is equipped with Frag/krak grenades, Nemesis Force Sword and a Stormbolter. Huh...weird, those are fairly similar....They don't have the same vehicles though right? Like Land Raiders and their variants? or Stormraven/Talon/Hawks? and there is no way they all use Razorbacks and Rhinos right? I mean, I can keep being sarcastic as hell but the point is that they are just Space Marines with Grey armor and a few different rules/units/Names...kind of like how Blood Angels are just Space Marines painted red(and black) with a few different rules/units/names. They also got very similar treatment as far as free wargear. So we can continue to argue but the fact remains that they are functionally just another chapter of Space Marines. I had been lumping in Custards as well since they look the same and play along the same lines but I stopped including them since they didn't get all the same benefits as SM did in this update so i'll gladly reclassify them as SPEESE MEHREENS! +1.
Strength of Schedule is hardly a new measure when it comes to tournaments, and is generally viewed as the best representation of how good the opponents were for a given player as they navigated the event. Someone who, deliberately or otherwise, took the Swiss Gambit of losing their first game and then winning the remainder is likely to have played people towards the bottom of each bracket as the event goes on, compared to someone who won all their games except the last one.
Just because you don't like it, does not mean it doesn't work.
Neither system is perfect, but I'd rather have points as a decider since I can directly impact that result while I don't get a say in strength of schedule. A GT I went to about 6 months ago or so, I lost my first game to one of the best players in the entire region who routinely wins GTs and almost never fails to place. I went on to win 4 straight, including 1 matchup which i'll happily admit was an easy win while the other 3 were tough. But because of the scenario you mentioned I went from finishing 2nd overall to 4th or 5th (cant remember). I mean, i get your point, some clowns might lose intentionally round 1 so they can play easier opponents in the next 4 rounds but at the same time truly competitive players aren't going to settle for 2nd when they want 1st.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/26 14:25:37
Designer's Note: Hardened Veterans can be represented by any Imperial Guard models, but we've really included them to allow players to practise their skills at making a really unique and individual unit. Because of this we won't be making models to represent many of the options allowed to a Veteran squad - it's up to you to convert the models. (Imperial Guard, 3rd Edition)
SemperMortis wrote: Ah yes, my mistake, painting your minis grey makes them a completely different army than regular Space Marines. I mean...its no longer a Captain leading the army its a...*Checks notes* Ah yes, Brother-Captain. And its not a Librarian its a Brother Librarian. But the troops are 100% different right? I mean, they don't even have similar names and their statlines are totally different. I mean, a Tac Marine is M6 WS3 BS3 S4 T4 2W A1 LD7 3+ save and is equipped with Frag/krak grenades and a Bolter. While the Grey Knights "Strike Squad" is M6 WS3 BS3 S4 T4 2W A3 LD7 3+ save and is equipped with Frag/krak grenades, Nemesis Force Sword and a Stormbolter. Huh...weird, those are fairly similar....
Last time I checked, a Storm Bolter is like twice as effective as a Bolter and no standard marine carries a bolter and a souped-up power sword. Nor doe any Space Marine Captains or Troops units have Psychic Powers. The differences between a Tactical Marine and a Grey Knight Strike Marine are more important than the similarities.
thats the whole schtick of the flamers, theyre good overwatch weapons. thing is, its so trivial to deny an overwatch that they become useless anyway (unless youre some tzeentch flamers that are clearly TOO good)
I still don't understand how people weren't denying that overwatch on the flamers...
Maybe they can give all flamers free overwatch to make them a bit better.
Denying overwatch isn't trivial in most cases. It requires taking specific units for most armies and then usually requiring line of sight from that supporting unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
a_typical_hero wrote: No amount of sarcasm changes the fact that Space Marines and Grey Knights are two very different armies that do not play the game in the same way.
Hell, even two marines facing each other can be wildly different lists and would play just as differently.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/26 17:21:25
I think its totally reasonable to rope GK into "MEQ Meta" (along with all the CSM factions, and probably Custodes) - but they are a thing in themselves vs Marines as Marines.
In the same sort of view that if Thousand Sons are doing well, it doesn't automatically translate into CSM/DG/WE doing well. Or indeed reguar Space Marines.
Tyel wrote: I think its totally reasonable to rope GK into "MEQ Meta" (along with all the CSM factions, and probably Custodes) - but they are a thing in themselves vs Marines as Marines.
In the same sort of view that if Thousand Sons are doing well, it doesn't automatically translate into CSM/DG/WE doing well. Or indeed reguar Space Marines.
The original post is:
SemperMortis wrote: Based on the new updates I honestly predict SM to start running away with tournaments when these changes are implemented. I just don't see how a factio can't dominate the meta when they are allowed to take almost every upgrade for free.
emphasis mine.
We've shown now by this point the main reason that Marines are winning and placing proportionately is more due to the doctrine changes than free stuff. Grey Knights aren't related to SM as a faction and do not benefit from doctrine changes, they operate fuctionally differently as noted.
The premise of the thread being followed shows Space Marines are now a contender but contrary to the initial theory are not curb stomping everyone with free stuff. Indeed some flavours of Marine struggle to break even at events it seems.
Tyel wrote: I think its totally reasonable to rope GK into "MEQ Meta" (along with all the CSM factions, and probably Custodes) - but they are a thing in themselves vs Marines as Marines.
In the same sort of view that if Thousand Sons are doing well, it doesn't automatically translate into CSM/DG/WE doing well. Or indeed reguar Space Marines.
The original post is:
SemperMortis wrote: Based on the new updates I honestly predict SM to start running away with tournaments when these changes are implemented. I just don't see how a factio can't dominate the meta when they are allowed to take almost every upgrade for free.
emphasis mine.
We've shown now by this point the main reason that Marines are winning and placing proportionately is more due to the doctrine changes than free stuff. Grey Knights aren't related to SM as a faction and do not benefit from doctrine changes, they operate fuctionally differently as noted.
The premise of the thread being followed shows Space Marines are now a contender but contrary to the initial theory are not curb stomping everyone with free stuff. Indeed some flavours of Marine struggle to break even at events it seems.
To the bolded bit... I still consider it some malarkey that Imperial Fists are counted different from Iron Hands.
Rusted Claw and Four Armed Emperor are just GSC.
Alpha Legion and Black Legion are just CSM.
Iyanden and Ulthwe are just Eldar.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
None of the events seem large enough to warrant looking at top 16.
Key:
Dropped after 1 round - Dropped after 2 rounds - Dropped after 3 rounds - Dropped after 4 rounds - Dropped after 5 rounds - Dropped after 6 rounds
Wheat City Open 2023
Spoiler:
52 entrants, 0 show no results, 3 dropped during the event
Listed factions (including sub-factions) * indicates a drop during the event Adeptus Custodes - | (22)
Adeptus Mechanicus - | (49)
Chaos - || (39, 45)
Chaos Daemons - || (1, 25)
Chaos Space Marines - | (52)
Chaos Space Marines (Black Legion) - | (6)
Chaos Space Marines (Iron Warriors) - | (43)
Dark Eldar - | (27)
Death Guard - || (5, 36)
Eldar - ||| (9, 30, 44)
Genestealer Cult - | (47)
Grey Knights - || (14, 15)
Imperial Guard - ||||| | (2, 11, 33, 34, 37, 50)
Imperial Knights - || (24, 42*)
Knights Renegades - |||| (7, 18, 26, 29)
Leagues of Votann - | (19)
Necrons - || (13, 41)
Orks (Goffs) - || (17, 32)
Space Marines (Black Templars) - ||| (3, 4, 38)
Space Marines (Blood Angels) - ||| (16, 23, 28)
Space Marines (Imperial Fists) - | (51*)
Space Marines (Minotaurs) - | (31)
Space Marines (Salamanders) - | (21)
Space Marines (Space Wolves) - | (35)
Space Marines (Star Phantoms) - | (8)
Space Marines (Ultramarines) - | (10)
Thousand Sons - || (20, 40)
Tyranids - | (48*)
Tyranids (HF Gorgon) - || (12, 46)
Participation % (by Codex) Adeptus Custodes - 1.92%
Adeptus Mechanicus - 1.92%
Chaos - 3.85%
Chaos Daemons - 3.85%
Chaos Space Marines - 5.77%
Dark Eldar - 1.92%
Death Guard - 3.85%
Eldar - 5.77%
Genestealer Cult - 1.92%
Grey Knights - 3.85%
Imperial Guard - 11.54%
Imperial Knights - 3.85%
Knights Renegades - 7.69%
Leagues of Votann - 1.92%
Necrons - 3.85%
Orks (Goffs) - 3.85%
Space Marines - 23.08%
Thousand Sons - 3.85%
Tyranids - 5.77%
Top 8 slots (12.5% each) Chaos Daemons x1
Chaos Space Marines x1
Death Guard x1
Imperial Guard x1
Knights Renegades x1
Space Marines x3
The Star Phantoms list taking 8th does mean the SM outperformed their participation % by one top 8 slot. Imperial Guard got as close as I've seen to landing spot on their participation %, while it is arguable that everyone else in the top 8 overperformed by getting a spot at all.
Heroic Scale Gamers Houston Open
Spoiler:
50 entrants, 2 show no results, 6 dropped during the event
Listed factions (including sub-factions) * indicates a drop during the event Adepta Sororitas - || (23, 42*)
Adeptus Custodes - ||||| ||| (11, 24, 25, 32, 35, 40, 41*, 48*)
Adeptus Mechanicus - || (15, 17)
Chaos Daemons - | (7)
Chaos Space Marines - | (6)
Chaos Space Marines (Black Legion) - | (4)
Chaos Space Marines (Red Corsairs) - | (45*)
Eldar - | (19)
Genestealer Cult - | (8)
Grey Knights - || (5, 33)
Harlequins - | (38)
Imperial Guard - ||||| (1, 2, 3, 9, 16)
Imperial Knights - || (31, 44*)
Knights Renegades - |||| (13, 26, 28, 29)
Leagues of Votann - | (30)
Leagues of Votann (Ymyr Conglomerate) - | (46*)
Orks (Goffs) - | (10)
Space Marines (Blood Angels) - | (36)
Space Marines (Dark Angels) - ||| (18, 27, 43)
Space Marines (Imperial Fists) - | (47)
Space Marines (Iron Hands) - ||| (22, 34, 39*)
Space Marines (Salamanders) - | (12)
Space Marines (Space Wolves) - || (14, 21)
Tau Empire - | (20)
Thousand Sons - | (37)
Big underperformers - Adeptus Custodes & Space Marines - nearly 40% of the field between them, and no representatives in the top 8?
Big overperformers - Imperial Guard & Chaos Space Marines
Your reporting of the above event really showed your bias, btw - not only claiming GK counted, but ignoring who had the clean sweep of the top 3.
Melee At Shiloh
Spoiler:
59 entrants, 2 show no results, 0 dropped during the event
Listed factions (including sub-factions) * indicates a drop during the event Adeptus Custodes - || (21, 27)
Adeptus Mechanicus - | (44)
Chaos Daemons - ||| (1, 37, 50)
Chaos Space Marines (Black Legion) - || (29, 45)
Dark Eldar - | (26)
Death Guard - | (45)
Eldar - | (42)
Eldar (Ulthwe) - | (56)
Genestealer Cult - | (3)
Grey Knights - || (40, 51)
Harlequins - | (31)
Imperial Guard - |||| (13, 48, 49, 53)
Imperial Knights - ||| (12, 14, 17)
Knights Renegades - | (19)
Leagues of Votann - | (52)
Leagues of Votann (Greater Thurian League) - | (32)
Leagues of Votann (Urani-Surtr Regulates) - | (41)
Leagues of Votann (Ymyr Conglomerate) - | (9)
Necrons - | (38)
Necrons (Nihilakh) - || (11, 25)
Nurgle - | (23)
Orks - | (10)
Orks (Blood Axes) - | (30)
Orks (Goffs) - | (16)
Space Marines (Black Templars) - || (8, 34)
Space Marines (Dark Angels) - || (18, 57)
Space Marines (Deathwatch) - | (20^)
Space Marines (Iron Hands) - || (5, 15)
Space Marines (Minotaurs) - | (6)
Space Marines (Salamanders) - || (2, 22)
Space Marines (Space Wolves) - ||| (28, 36, 43)
Space Marines (Ultramarines) - | (4)
Tau Empire - | (55)
Thousand Sons - ||| (7, 24, 47)
Tyranids (Leviathan) - | (54)
World Eaters - | (33) - Still not sure if WE would be a part of CSM for this event or not Ynnari - || (35, 39)
^ - List not submitted before the event
Participation % (by Codex) Adeptus Custodes - 3.51%
Adeptus Mechanicus - 1.75%
Chaos Daemons - 5.26%
Chaos Space Marines - 3.51%
Dark Eldar - 1.75%
Death Guard - 1.75%
Eldar - 3.51%
Genestealer Cult - 1.75%
Grey Knights - 3.51%
Harlequins - 1.75%
Imperial Guard - 7.02%
Imperial Knights - 5.26%
Knights Renegades - 1.75%
Leagues of Votann - 7.02%
Necrons - 5.26%
Nurgle - 1.75%
Orks - 5.26%
Space Marines - 24.56%
Tau Empire - 1.75%
Thousand Sons - 5.26%
Tyranids - 1.75%
World Eaters - 1.75%
Ynnari - 3.51%
Top 8 slots (12.5% each) Chaos Daemons x1
Space Marines x5
Genestealer Cult x1
Thousand Sons x1
Not going to argue that Space Marines didn't outperform here - given their participation %, I'd've expected two top 8 places here, not 5. Could argue that the Imperial Guard and Leagues of Votann might've underperformed here.
Can't say I'm keen on the person who didn't submit their list in time getting to play, but that's not my call.
Renegades Open: Echoes Of War 5
Spoiler:
54 entrants, 1 shows no results, 1 dropped during the event
Listed factions (including sub-factions) * indicates a drop during the event Adepta Sororitas - | (8)
Adeptus Astra Telepathica - | (41)
Adeptus Custodes - ||| (21, 17, 49)
Adeptus Mechanicus - || (19, 27)
Chaos Daemons - |||| (1, 6, 32, 36)
Chaos Space Marines - || (15, 26)
Chaos Space Marines (Black Legion) - | (52)
Dark Eldar - | (20)
Death Guard - | (29)
Eldar - | (5)
Eldar (Ulthwe) - || (4, 51)
Genestealer Cult - || (33, 45)
Grey Knights - || (16, 44)
Imperial Guard - || (10, 25)
Imperial Knights - | (7)
Knights Renegades - || (11, 18)
Leagues of Votann - | (24)
Necrons - || (12, 34)
Orks - | (38*)
Space Marines - | (53)
Space Marines (Black Templars) - | (13)
Space Marines (Blood Angels) - | (23)
Space Marines (Dark Angels) - |||| (14, 28, 30, 39)
Space Marines (Deathwatch) - | (50)
Space Marines (Imperial Fists) - | (43)
Space Marines (Iron Hands) - |||| (9, 31, 37, 46)
Space Marines (Raven Guard) - || (3, 22)
Space Marines (Salamanders) - || (35, 40)
Thousand Sons - ||| (42, 47, 48)
Tyranids - | (2)
Participation % (by Codex) Adepta Sororitas - 1.89%
Adeptus Astra Telepathica - 1.89%
Adeptus Custodes - 5.66%
Adeptus Mechanicus - 3.77%
Chaos Daemons - 7.55%
Chaos Space Marines - 5.66%
Dark Eldar - 1.89%
Death Guard - 1.89%
Eldar - 5.66%
Genestealer Cult - 3.77%
Grey Knights - 3.77%
Imperial Guard - 3.77%
Imperial Knights - 1.89%
Knights Renegades - 3.77%
Leagues of Votann - 1.89%
Necrons - 3.77%
Orks - 1.89%
Space Marines - 32.08%
Thousand Sons - 5.66%
Tyranids - 1.89%
Top 8 slots (12.5% each) Adepta Sororitas x1
Chaos Daemons x2
Eldar x2
Imperial Knights x1
Space Marines x1
Tyranids x1
Chaos Daemons and Eldar are big over-performers here, getting 25% of the top 8 spots each, despite only making up 7.55% and 5.66% of the field, respectively. Space Marines heavily underperformed here, taking only 1 top 8 spot despite being 32% of the field.
OK, I give - what would make up an "Adeptus Astra Telepathica" list these days?
Team Battle Brothers 40k "Major" GT
Spoiler:
56 entrants, 4 show no results, 4 dropped during the event
Listed factions (including sub-factions) * indicates a drop during the event Adepta Sororitas - || (26*^, 37)
Adeptus Custodes - | (9)
Adeptus Mechanicus - | (52)
Chaos Daemons (Slaanesh) - | (27)
Chaos Space Marines - | (11)
Chaos Space Marines (Alpha Legion) - | (44)
Chaos Space Marines (Emperor's Children) - || (28, 49)
Chaos Space Marines (Iron Warriors) - | (24)
Dark Eldar - | (48)
Death Guard - | (31)
Eldar - |||| (8, 22*, 41, 42*)
Eldar (Ulthwe) - || (1, 30)
Genestealer Cult - || (4, 20^)
Grey Knights - || (15, 32)
Imperial Guard - ||||| (2, 16, 18, 19, 25)
Imperial Knights - || (34, 36)
Knights Renegades - || (33, 38)
Leagues of Votann - | (40*)
Leagues of Votann (Ymyr Conglomerate) - | (50)
Orks - | (12)
Space Marines (Black Templars) - | (10^)
Space Marines (Blood Angels) - || (17, 46)
Space Marines (Dark Angels) - || (6, 35)
Space Marines (Deathwatch) - | (51)
Space Marines (Iron Hands) - |||| (3, 5, 7, 13)
Space Marines (Space Wolves) - | (47)
Space Marines (Ultramarines) - | (45)
Tau Empire - || (21, 39)
Tyranids - | (14)
World Eaters - || (23, 43)
Ynnari - | (29)
^ - List not submitted before event
Participation % (by Codex) Adepta Sororitas - 3.85%
Adeptus Custodes - 1.92%
Adeptus Mechanicus - 1.92%
Chaos Daemons - 1.92%
Chaos Space Marines - 9.62%
Dark Eldar - 1.92%
Death Guard - 1.92%
Eldar - 11.54%
Genestealer Cult - 3.85%
Grey Knights - 3.85%
Imperial Guard - 9.62%
Imperial Knights - 3.85%
Knights Renegades - 3.85%
Leagues of Votann - 3.85%
Orks - 1.92%
Space Marines - 23.08%
Tau Empire - 3.85%
Tyranids - 1.92%
World Eaters - 3.85%
Ynnari - 1.92%
Top 8 slots (12.5% each) Eldar x2
Genestealer Cult x1
Imperial Guard x1
Space Marines x4
No argument that Space Marines overperformed here, given they got twice as many top 8 spots as their performance % would indicate. Elder also over-performed by a similar degree. Chaos Space Marines arguably underperformed.
Can't say I'd be happy with people who didn't submit a list in time placing so highly.
The Pecking Order: Peeps of War GT
Spoiler:
51 entrants, 1 show no results, 6 dropped during the event
Listed factions (including sub-factions) * indicates a drop during the event Adepta Sororitas - | (12)
Adeptus Custodes - |||| (9, 17, 27, 35)
Chaos Daemons (Khorne) - | (38)
Chaos Daemons (Tzeentch) - | (18)
Chaos Space Marines - || (22, 50)
Chaos Space Marines (Alpha Legion) - | (25)
Chaos Space Marines (Black Legion) - | (4)
Chaos Space Marines (Emperor's Children) - || (32, 33)
Death Guard - | (23)
Eldar (Ulthwe) - | (30)
Genestealer Cult - | (7)
Grey Knights - | (14)
Imperial Guard - |||| (1, 31, 41, 46*)
Imperial Knights - | (39)
Imperium - | (28)
Knights Renegades - |||| (10, 11, 26, 29)
Leagues of Votann - || (6, 48*)
Leagues of Votann (Greater Thurian League) - | (21)
Necrons - || (45*, 49)
Orks (Goffs) - || (3, 34)
Space Marines (Dark Angels) - || (2, 42)
Space Marines (Salamanders) - | (15)
Space Marines (Space Wolves) - || (5, 44*)
Space Marines (Ultramarines) - || (13, 16)
Tau Empire - || (8, 40)
Thousand Sons - | (47*)
Tyranids (Behemoth) - || (20, 36)
Tyranids (Jormungandr) - | (43*)
Tyranids (Kraken) - | (37)
Tyranids (Kronos) - | (19)
Ynnari - | (24)
Participation % (by Codex) Adepta Sororitas - 2%
Adeptus Custodes - 8%
Chaos Daemons - 4%
Chaos Space Marines - 12%
Death Guard - 2%
Eldar - 2%
Genestealer Cult - 2%
Grey Knights - 2%
Imperial Guard - 8%
Imperial Knights - 2%
Imperium - 2%
Knights Renegades - 8%
Leagues of Votann - 6%
Necrons - 4%
Orks - 4%
Space Marines - 14%
Tau Empire - 4%
Thousand Sons - 2%
Tyranids - 10%
Ynnari - 2%
Top 8 slots (12.5% each) Chaos Space Marines x1
Genestealer Cult x1
Imperial Guard x1
Leagues of Votann x1
Space Marines x2
Orks x1
Tau Empire x1
Space Marines overperformed a little here, as given their participation % you'd expect 1 top 8 rather than 2, but I wouldn't call it egregious. Tyranids underperformed, while Chaos Space Marines were almost exactly on the money.
Brighton 40k Tournament |||
Spoiler:
28 entrants, 0 show no results, 4 dropped during the event
Listed factions (including sub-factions) * indicates a drop during the event Adeptus Custodes - ||| (2, 5, 26*)
Adeptus Mechanicus - || (15, 27*)
Chaos Daemons - | (25*)
Eldar - | (19)
Eldar (Ulthwe) - | (12)
Genestealer Cult - | (16)
Grey Knights - || (13, 14)
Harlequins - | (10)
Imperial Guard - ||| (21, 22, 23)
Imperial Knights - || (7, 18)
Orks - | (9)
Orks (Goffs) - | (1)
Space Marines (Blood Angels) - || (4, 6)
Space Marines (Space Wolves) - | (11)
Space Marines (Ultramarines) - | (17)
Space Marines (White Scars) - | (8)
Tau Empire - || (24, 28*)
World Eaters - | (3)
Ynnari - | (20)
Participation % (by Codex) Adeptus Custodes - 10.71%
Adeptus Mechanicus - 7.14%
Chaos Daemons - 3.57%
Eldar - 7.14%
Genestealer Cult - 3.57%
Grey Knights - 7.14%
Harlequins - 3.57%
Imperial Guard - 10.71%
Imperial Knights - 7.14%
Orks - 7.14%
Space Marines - 17.86%
Tau Empire - 7.14%
World Eaters - 3.57%
Ynnari - 3.57%
Top 8 slots (12.5% each) Adeptus Custodes x2
Imperial Knights x1
Orks x1
Space Marines x3
World Eaters x1
Space Marines overperforming by one spot, adeptus Custodes performing twice as well as expected based on participation %. Imperial Guard underperformed here, given they were over 10% of the field.
Smallest event of this sample.
For an overall view, let's look at the participation vs. top 8 slots across the seven events...
Spoiler:
Player count (who played at least one game)
52 + 48 + 57 + 53 + 52 + 50 + 28 = 340
Top 8 slots (56 slots, each worth 1.79%) If we're working from participation %, you'd expect roughly every 6 entries to correspond to one top 8 position.
Overperforming - On Target (within 1% of participation) - Underperforming (but still made top 8)
Adepta Sororitas x | - 1/56 = 1.79%
Adeptus Custodes x || - 2/56 = 3.57%
Chaos Daemons x ||||| - 5/56 = 8.92%
Chaos Space Marines x |||| - 4/56 = 7.14%
Death Guard x | - 1/56 = 1.79%
Eldar x |||| - 4/56 = 7.14%
Genestealer Cult x |||| - 4/56 = 7.14%
Grey Knights x | - 1/56 = 1.79%
Imperial Guard x ||||| | - 6/56 = 10.71%
Imperial Knights x || - 2/56 = 3.57%
Knights Renegades x | - 1/56 = 1.79%
Leagues of Votann x | - 1/56 = 1.79%
Orks x || - 2/56 = 3.57%
Space Marines x ||||| ||||| ||||| ||| - 18/56 = 32.14%
Tau Empire x | - 1/56 = 1.79%
Thousand Sons x | - 1/56 = 1.79%
Tyranids x | - 1/56 = 1.79%
World Eaters x | - 1/56 = 1.79%
Space Marines seem to be overperforming by ~50% (in terms of top 8 spots compared to participation %) in these seven events. However, Chaos Daemons and Genestealer Cults are both overperforming by 100% or more.
Of the factions who achieved a top 8 spot, Knights Renegades seem to be the major underperformers, securing around a third of the top 8 spots you'd expect from their participation in the selected events.
And because it amuses me, and because someone made an assertion about it, here's a look at the Space Marines sub-factions that were used at these events:
Spoiler:
Space Marine Subfactions (top 8 spots) Space Marines x 1
Black Templars X 7 - 3 top 8 slots
Blood Angels x 9 - 2 top 8 slots
Dark Angels x 13 - 2 top 8 slots
Deathwatch x 3
Imperial Fists x 3
Iron Hands x 13 - 4 top 8 slots
Minotaurs x 2 - 1 top 8 slot
Raven Guard x 2 - 1 top 8 slot
Salamanders x 7 - 1 top 8 slot
Space Wolves x 10 - 1 top 8 slot
Star Phantoms x 1 - 1 top 8 slot
Ultramarines x 5 - 1 top 8 slot
White Scars x 1 - 1 top 8 slot
Not quite sure why Minotaurs and Star Phantoms are options on BCP, but there you go. Do they even have rules through Forge World these days? While Iron Hands do have the most top 8 slots, I wouldn't say they're far enough ahead of the field to be "dominant" - especially when you consider it took 13 players to get those 4 top 8 slots, while Templars managed 3 top 8 slots from 7 players. As Dark Angels are joint 3rd, they definitely aren't "dominant".
Side note - BCP apparently does have a "Not Checked In" flag to differentiate no-shows from those who dropped during the event, but given the number of people I noticed showing as dropped without a reported game, more TOs need to use it. I only saw it used for 1 entrant across these seven events, otherwise I'd be complaining it didn't exist at all!
Second side note - I have no idea why Blood of Kittens reports top 3 instead of top 4/8 (or all n/1 or n/2 and better), but it is a silly metric in a Swiss system.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Minotaurs have a names character that's still supported. He let's you reroll charges and has a D3 melee weapon.
The problem with that though is that GW kinda stopped trying and said Minotaurs could be used with whatever Marine rules you wanted, but simply recommended Imperial Fists successors with the mini Transhuman and the exploding 6s in melee.
So while Minotaurs show up, we actually don't have any info on what's being done. I ran them as Dark Angels successors for example because Asterion + Terminator spam is fun.
Star Phantoms just have no rules in general. Only thing there is a Legends Captain with a D3 Power Fist and Combi-Melta, not even a random fun rule. So he probably wasn't ran.
thats the whole schtick of the flamers, theyre good overwatch weapons. thing is, its so trivial to deny an overwatch that they become useless anyway (unless youre some tzeentch flamers that are clearly TOO good)
I still don't understand how people weren't denying that overwatch on the flamers...
i stick my Flamers in a ruin, good luck charging me from behind another ruin
Dudeface wrote: We've shown now by this point the main reason that Marines are winning and placing proportionately is more due to the doctrine changes than free stuff. Grey Knights aren't related to SM as a faction and do not benefit from doctrine changes, they operate fuctionally differently as noted.
The premise of the thread being followed shows Space Marines are now a contender but contrary to the initial theory are not curb stomping everyone with free stuff. Indeed some flavours of Marine struggle to break even at events it seems.
Sorry, how have you shown that?
Maybe I'm adopted less of a black and white interpretation - but the premise was that Marines would run away with tournaments. Clearly "run away with" is debatable - but they do seem to be the best performing faction. Now you can argue that in a balanced system, as the most played faction, they should perform the best. Which is reasonable enough. But the question is whether the alignment is there. Marines have usually been the most played faction - even when most recognised they weren't great.
The argument that say "per list" Guard are performing better is reasonable. And I think most would say Guard are also S-tier right now.
But I'm sort of struggling with this "Marines will be good" - "the data shows Marines very clearly are good" - "we have proven this is wrong, nothing to see here, move along."
It think it pretty much breaks down to this. The data below shows Space Marines are doing well. You can even say very well. They are not dominating the meta. Their Top 8 placement only third place when compared to their participation rate. This is only remarkable because their participation rate is high.
Dysartes wrote: For an overall view, let's look at the participation vs. top 8 slots across the seven events...
Spoiler:
Player count (who played at least one game)
52 + 48 + 57 + 53 + 52 + 50 + 28 = 340
Top 8 slots (56 slots, each worth 1.79%) If we're working from participation %, you'd expect roughly every 6 entries to correspond to one top 8 position.
Overperforming - On Target (within 1% of participation) - Underperforming (but still made top 8)
Adepta Sororitas x | - 1/56 = 1.79%
Adeptus Custodes x || - 2/56 = 3.57%
Chaos Daemons x ||||| - 5/56 = 8.92%
Chaos Space Marines x |||| - 4/56 = 7.14%
Death Guard x | - 1/56 = 1.79%
Eldar x |||| - 4/56 = 7.14%
Genestealer Cult x |||| - 4/56 = 7.14%
Grey Knights x | - 1/56 = 1.79%
Imperial Guard x ||||| | - 6/56 = 10.71%
Imperial Knights x || - 2/56 = 3.57%
Knights Renegades x | - 1/56 = 1.79%
Leagues of Votann x | - 1/56 = 1.79%
Orks x || - 2/56 = 3.57%
Space Marines x ||||| ||||| ||||| ||| - 18/56 = 32.14%
Tau Empire x | - 1/56 = 1.79%
Thousand Sons x | - 1/56 = 1.79%
Tyranids x | - 1/56 = 1.79%
World Eaters x | - 1/56 = 1.79%
Space Marines seem to be overperforming by ~50% (in terms of top 8 spots compared to participation %) in these seven events. However, Chaos Daemons and Genestealer Cults are both overperforming by 100% or more.
Of the factions who achieved a top 8 spot, Knights Renegades seem to be the major underperformers, securing around a third of the top 8 spots you'd expect from their participation in the selected events.
All those podium placings aside, one must wonder how their Overall Win rate compares to other factions? We all remember when Ynarri or Drukhari had an high win rate and high podium rate.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
JNAProductions wrote: To the bolded bit... I still consider it some malarkey that Imperial Fists are counted different from Iron Hands.
Rusted Claw and Four Armed Emperor are just GSC.
Alpha Legion and Black Legion are just CSM.
Iyanden and Ulthwe are just Eldar.
Almost as if being more popular and having separate books, makes both the players of those factions and more important the GW studio treat them as a separate thing. Well up until they have to show marine win rants being okey, then it is better to combine them, then try to explain with "it is just noob player" how after changes IF still get under 30% win rates.
And what is better can you imagine that it is true for non loyalist marines too. GW litteraly wrote a DG, 1ksons and WE book too. Mindblowing.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
