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For an event of ~260, I'd probably go so far as to look at top 16.
Dark Angels
Space Wolves
Iron Hands
Imperial Guard
Adeptus Custodes
Leagues of Votann
Dark Angels
Necrons
Orks
Iron Hands
Death Guard
Necrons
World Eaters
Leagues of Votann
Chaos Daemons
Ynnari
No extra Loyalist SM in there, but we do see both Leagues of Votann and Necrons getting two spots apiece as well.
And Orks in 9th, which I'm surprised you're not more chuffed about.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Dudeface wrote: That's a fair statement in and of itself, but the ability to sit in dev doctrine all game is a huge boon to ironhands in particular and conveniently the chosen chase for DA as well, which as noted are the largest represented and also generally seem to be placing at least as well. There was a breakdown on the free points for some winning lists a few pages back and the IH list in question didn't have that much free stuff and the DA even less. They're leveraging rules changes more than the points seemingly.
I'm not really sure how you separate them out.
I mean even say the DA lists can be down by quite a significant number of points.
The nearest I think to Semper's concept would be Brad Chester's Salamanders - who were second at Melee At Shiloh the weekend before last.
Eradicator Squad [14 PL, 270pts]: Melta rifle
. 3x Eradicator: 3x Bolt pistol
. Eradicator Sgt
. Eradicator with MM . Eradicator with MM
++ Total: [110 PL, 4CP, 2,000pts] ++
I don't want to be accused like Daed of misleading by making a mistake on the points - but as far as I can tell (and its not all that easy these days to check), that's quite a dramatic saving over the old points. 60 point saving Infiltrators. 60 points on Aggressors. 90 points on attack bikes. 45 on Land Speeders. 130 on the Devs. 20 on the Eradicators. 10 points on Vanguard Vets. 10 points on Vulkan. 15 on the Apothecary. 30 on Captain.
So in total: 470 point saving versus the previous seasons points. Not really surprising its a lot more effective.
I feel safe in saying 50 point MM attack bikes are ludicrous, and a lot of lists seem to be throwing in 6-9 of them.
The Infiltrators have no weapon swaps, and took no optional options. Edit to add: Whoops I missed it - they did take Helix Gauntlets. 20 Points. Most of the characters also aren't really getting "free wargear" and just got points drops. You're not including base points drops that everybody got in the "free wargear" are you? I mean we get it, its hard to be honest about the faction you hate. But its also hard not to see it when it happens.
Breton wrote: The nearest I think to Semper's concept would be Brad Chester's Salamanders - who were second at Melee At Shiloh the weekend before last.
Eradicator Squad [14 PL, 270pts]: Melta rifle
. 3x Eradicator: 3x Bolt pistol
. Eradicator Sgt
. Eradicator with MM . Eradicator with MM
++ Total: [110 PL, 4CP, 2,000pts] ++
I don't want to be accused like Daed of misleading by making a mistake on the points - but as far as I can tell (and its not all that easy these days to check), that's quite a dramatic saving over the old points. 60 point saving Infiltrators. 60 points on Aggressors. 90 points on attack bikes. 45 on Land Speeders. 130 on the Devs. 20 on the Eradicators. 10 points on Vanguard Vets. 10 points on Vulkan. 15 on the Apothecary. 30 on Captain.
So in total: 470 point saving versus the previous seasons points. Not really surprising its a lot more effective.
I feel safe in saying 50 point MM attack bikes are ludicrous, and a lot of lists seem to be throwing in 6-9 of them.
The Infiltrators have no weapon swaps, and took no optional options. Edit to add: Whoops I missed it - they did take Helix Gauntlets. 20 Points. Most of the characters also aren't really getting "free wargear" and just got points drops. You're not including base points drops that everybody got in the "free wargear" are you? I mean we get it, its hard to be honest about the faction you hate. But its also hard not to see it when it happens.
Fortunately, I've kept the copy of the 2022 MkII MFM that came with White Dwarf - I don't recall any changes being made to these units after it came out, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Anyway, here's how I price the list in 2022 MkII terms:
Spoiler:
HQ - Primaris Captain + Chapter Master + MC Power Sword + Relic Shield - 145pts (Body down 10, CM down 5, 15pts free gear)
Elites - Primaris Apothecary + Chief Apothecary - 115pts (Body down 10, CA down 5)
Elites - 5 Vanguard Veterans + 5 Jump Packs + 3 Power Swords + 2 Storm Shields + 2 Power Fists - 145pts (Body up 1ppm, gear down 15pts (free PS, PF 3pts each))
Fast Attack - 3 Attack Bikes + 3 MM - 180pts (30pts free gear)
Fast Attack - 3 Attack Bikes + 3 MM - 180pts (30pts free gear)
Fast Attack - 3 Attack Bikes + 3 MM - 180pts (30pts free gear)
Fast Attack - Land Speeder Tornado + AC + MM - 85pts (15pts free gear)
Fast Attack - Land Speeder Tornado + AC + MM - 85pts (15pts free gear)
Fast Attack - Land Speeder Tornado + AC + MM - 85pts (15pts free gear)
Heavy Support - 5 Devastators + 4 Lascannon + Combi=Melta + TH + Cherub - 180pts (Body up 5ppm, 90pts free gear)
Heavy Support - 5 Devastators + 4 Lascannon + Combi=Melta + TH + Cherub - 180pts (Body up 5ppm, 90pts free gear)
Heavy Support - 6 Eradicators + 2 MM - 290pts (20pts free gear)
2022 MkII Total - 2,470
Net change from body changes - -75pts
Net change from gear/upgrade changes - -395pts
Would be nice if the army list builder hadn't changed which Captain it was to just read Chapter Master on the first HQ - I'm assuming the default Primaris Captain datasheet, as that's the only one I see with the sword/shield, even if the Bladeguard Captain looks a bit more like Gravis to me.
Question for Tyel - are 50pt Attack Bikes with MM really that much more ludicrous than 60pt Attack Bikes with MM?
+ + +
Turns out I may well be bored enough to look at that FLG event in more detail tonight.
Quick question for those who know BCP better than me - I'm assuming a score in green is a win, and red is a loss. Does blue mean a draw?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/02/28 09:55:22
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Dysartes wrote: Question for Tyel - are 50pt Attack Bikes with MM really that much more ludicrous than 60pt Attack Bikes with MM?
If you were bringing 1 then it wouldn't make much difference. Maybe even if it was 3 squads of 1 each.
But once you are looking at 6-9 of them, that's a 60-90 points saving. Which I think starts to add up. Especially if you think there are other units that are also undercosted etc. The effective result is that 2k Marines as whole is just a lot more potent than it was. I'm sort of picking on the MM attack bikes just because I think you can compare them with similar units across 40k. (I thought about comparing say Devastators to Scourge - but I think many would say Scourge are not exactly hot, and are just a bit confused - especially with say dark lances when the blaster option is there.)
Its hard to say precisely - but I feel a lot of 40k's balance problems (and I don't think this season is that imbalanced) are when the exceptionally strong factions are running around with effectively 2200 points - and the exceptionally poor factions are running round with 1800.
If that Marine force had to take 200~ points off the table (so a squad or two) it would perform worse. (Possibly too much worse, we'd have to see.)
Admittedly, if GW just put the points increase on attack bikes, you might just drop them and put the points into another squad of devastators and some other stuff. Which is sort of why its hard to balance. You want each unit to be viable to take - hence reasonable internal balance - but the potential total package to be a bit less efficient than it currently is. Sometimes factions are clearly leaning on a key problem unit. I think Marines have quite a few winners now.
Equally if we looked at a faction which seems to be underperforming - Thousand Sons perhaps don't seem very hot - and GW said they could bring a free unit of 5 Scarab Occult Terminators (or whatever for 200 points), they'd do better in games. Sometimes the issue is functionality - a lot of the pros for instance say DG will never be "good" due to the lack of an advance and charge ability, so you always know exactly what they can do in the movement phase and can play around them accordingly. But I suspect they'd change their tune if GW went "DG seem to be struggling, have a free Mortarion".
Net change from body changes - -75pts
Net change from gear/upgrade changes - -395pts
So we're doing "net change" so that the 5 point increases make it look like the other PPM drops were smaller when those 5PPM price increases on the Devs were more likely offsets to zero out most of their Heavy choices? So 125 points of PPM drops turns into 75 points of PPM drops, and 50 points of Wargear zero-outs/offsets turn into 395 points of Gear changes instead of of 345 points of gear? Say, did you put the Chaper Command stuff as a PPM drop, or a Wargear drop? I bet I know.
Would be nice if the army list builder hadn't changed which Captain it was to just read Chapter Master on the first HQ - I'm assuming the default Primaris Captain datasheet, as that's the only one I see with the sword/shield, even if the Bladeguard Captain looks a bit more like Gravis to me.
Only one datasheet I know of has a Relic Shield.
Question for Tyel - are 50pt Attack Bikes with MM really that much more ludicrous than 60pt Attack Bikes with MM?
9 Attack bikes in almost anything but a WS/Raven+ Wing Bike themed list are pretty close to ridiculous no matter which gun is on the sidecar. But I probably mean that in a different way. Here's another question: If SM with ~25% "extra" stuff are now where they should be competitively why are so many people complaining they're now competitive instead of marvelling at how overcosted they were?
Net change from body changes - -75pts
Net change from gear/upgrade changes - -395pts
So we're doing "net change" so that the 5 point increases make it look like the other PPM drops were smaller when those 5PPM price increases on the Devs were more likely offsets to zero out most of their Heavy choices? So 125 points of PPM drops turns into 75 points of PPM drops, and 50 points of Wargear zero-outs/offsets turn into 395 points of Gear changes instead of of 345 points of gear? Say, did you put the Chaper Command stuff as a PPM drop, or a Wargear drop? I bet I know.
I listed out all the changes from 2023 MFM compared to 2022 MkII MFM in the spoiler.
In the case of the two Dev squads, under 2023 MFM they're paying 90 points per squad less for gear, but 25 points per squad more for the base bodies. A 5ppm increase on a body doesn't fully offset the saving of not paying 15 points for a lascannon, let alone the 25pts of kit the Sergeant is bring to the party (or the free cherub).
If you want to say there were 125 pts of body cost reductions, 50 points of body cost increases, and a saving of 395 points on gear, then you can do, but you're making things wordier for no major benefit.
And the Chapter Master & Chief Apothecary savings went under gear cost rather than body cost, given they're an upgrade.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Net change from body changes - -75pts
Net change from gear/upgrade changes - -395pts
So we're doing "net change" so that the 5 point increases make it look like the other PPM drops were smaller when those 5PPM price increases on the Devs were more likely offsets to zero out most of their Heavy choices? So 125 points of PPM drops turns into 75 points of PPM drops, and 50 points of Wargear zero-outs/offsets turn into 395 points of Gear changes instead of of 345 points of gear? Say, did you put the Chaper Command stuff as a PPM drop, or a Wargear drop? I bet I know.
I listed out all the changes from 2023 MFM compared to 2022 MkII MFM in the spoiler.
In the case of the two Dev squads, under 2023 MFM they're paying 90 points per squad less for gear, but 25 points per squad more for the base bodies. A 5ppm increase on a body doesn't fully offset the saving of not paying 15 points for a lascannon, let alone the 25pts of kit the Sergeant is bring to the party (or the free cherub).
It does when Everything not a MM gets reduced to 5 Points each.
If you want to say there were 125 pts of body cost reductions, 50 points of body cost increases, and a saving of 395 points on gear, then you can do, but you're making things wordier for no major benefit.
And the Chapter Master & Chief Apothecary savings went under gear cost rather than body cost, given they're an upgrade.
I was being facetious. I already knew exactly where you put the Chapter Command cost. And why.
Another really obnoxious thing about the pricing method of Devastators now is that when filling the squad out to ten models, the extra basic-bolter guys are 23 ppm. The more models you take the more expensive those four Heavy Weapons get, I guess? So dumb.
I remember seeing that for the first time and thinking the designers decided that 230 points for a 10-model Devestator Squad was right. So they divided it by to 10 get 23 points a model, totally forgetting all the upgrades go in the first 5 models
150 points for the first 5 models with 16 points per additional model would make so much more sense. It is really time GW start thinking about pricing units this way if they want to move to most upgrades are free.
On other subjects, I find it funny people comparing the change to upgrade and body cost between MFM2022 Mk II and MFM2023 Mk I while forgetting the loss of Armor of Contempt. Space Marines cost needed to come down for them to be competitive. Look at what has happened to Adepta Sororitas win and placement rates. They have fallen sharply because they also lost Armor of Contempt and go no discounts, body or upgrades, to compenstate.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/28 14:53:54
alextroy wrote: I remember seeing that for the first time and thinking the designers decided that 230 points for a 10-model Devestator Squad was right. So they divided it by to 10 get 23 points a model, totally forgetting all the upgrades go in the first 5 models
Think of the second 5 models as also being upgrades to the original 5.
You're paying +23 pts to essentially double the original fives wounds. You also get extra bolter fire & occasionally an increase in CC ability.
alextroy wrote: I remember seeing that for the first time and thinking the designers decided that 230 points for a 10-model Devestator Squad was right. So they divided it by to 10 get 23 points a model, totally forgetting all the upgrades go in the first 5 models
Think of the second 5 models as also being upgrades to the original 5.
You're paying +23 pts to essentially double the original fives wounds. You also get extra bolter fire & occasionally an increase in CC ability.
alextroy wrote: I remember seeing that for the first time and thinking the designers decided that 230 points for a 10-model Devestator Squad was right. So they divided it by to 10 get 23 points a model, totally forgetting all the upgrades go in the first 5 models
Think of the second 5 models as also being upgrades to the original 5.
You're paying +23 pts to essentially double the original fives wounds. You also get extra bolter fire & occasionally an increase in CC ability.
alextroy wrote: I remember seeing that for the first time and thinking the designers decided that 230 points for a 10-model Devestator Squad was right. So they divided it by to 10 get 23 points a model, totally forgetting all the upgrades go in the first 5 models
Think of the second 5 models as also being upgrades to the original 5.
You're paying +23 pts to essentially double the original fives wounds. You also get extra bolter fire & occasionally an increase in CC ability.
Or . . . You just spend the exact same
amount points on a second squad of five and get the heavy weapons+Cherub+Combi+Powerfist.
Hmm. Do I want 5 bolter marines or do I want 5 Marines with much better gear for, let's see, zero more points? Oh the tough decisions GW provides with it's super deep game design!
alextroy wrote: I remember seeing that for the first time and thinking the designers decided that 230 points for a 10-model Devestator Squad was right. So they divided it by to 10 get 23 points a model, totally forgetting all the upgrades go in the first 5 models
Think of the second 5 models as also being upgrades to the original 5.
You're paying +23 pts to essentially double the original fives wounds. You also get extra bolter fire & occasionally an increase in CC ability.
Which isn't worth the points and you know it.
Isn't worth it to you.
A few extra wounds before I start losing the heavy weapons have generally served me well enough though. The extra bolter shots & possibility of more CC attacks are just a bonus. The question is how many extra bodies do I invest in?
alextroy wrote: I remember seeing that for the first time and thinking the designers decided that 230 points for a 10-model Devestator Squad was right. So they divided it by to 10 get 23 points a model, totally forgetting all the upgrades go in the first 5 models
Think of the second 5 models as also being upgrades to the original 5.
You're paying +23 pts to essentially double the original fives wounds. You also get extra bolter fire & occasionally an increase in CC ability.
Or . . . You just spend the exact same
amount points on a second squad of five and get the heavy weapons+Cherub+Combi+Powerfist.
Hmm. Do I want 5 bolter marines or do I want 5 Marines with much better gear for, let's see, zero more points? Oh the tough decisions GW provides with it's super deep game design!
Not really a tough choice. I already spend the pts on a 2nd squad. And occasionally a 3rd. I did so when the weapons cost pts, I do now that the weapons are free, and I'll do so in the future if/when the weapons cost pts again. It's just a matter of how many more ablative wounds do I want to invest in for each squad.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/28 21:43:21
Dysartes wrote: Turns out I may well be bored enough to look at that FLG event in more detail tonight.
Quick question for those who know BCP better than me - I'm assuming a score in green is a win, and red is a loss. Does blue mean a draw?
I'd like to say I'm not going to do this again, but...
Key:
Dropped after 1 round - Dropped after 2 rounds - Dropped after 3 rounds - Dropped after 4 rounds - Dropped after 5 rounds - Dropped after 6 rounds
Frontline Gaming Cherokee Open 40K Champs
Spoiler:
266 entrants, 9 show no results, 26 dropped during the event
Listed factions (including sub-factions) * indicates a drop during the event
Top 16 slots (6.25% each) Adeptus Custodes x1 - 6.25%
Chaos Daemons x1 - 6.25%
Death Guard x1 - 6.25%
Imperial Guard x1 - 6.25%
Leagues of Votann x2 - 12.5%
Necrons x2 - 12.5%
Orks x1 - 6.25%
Space Marines x5 - 31.25%
World Eaters x1 - 6.25%
Ynnari x1 - 6.25%
Comparing the % of the top 16 slots to the participation %, everyone who got a top 16 slot overperformed, except Custodes (underperformed), Chaos Daemons, Imperial Guard & Orks (who were all within 1% of their participation % ).
Space Marines overperformed by about 50%, which would be around 1 top 8 slot. Necrons did ~4 times as well as expected, while LoV did around 2.5 times as well as expected and World Eaters about twice as well. Then there's Ynnari, at about 5.5 times as well as expected...
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Space Marines had a 52.9% Win Rate in the event. An acceptably good rate with higher than participation expected top rankings.
Space Marines may just be a faction that has the tools to do well in good hands, prompting good players to play the faction? But average and bad players continue to to average and bad as always.
And could it be other factions not getting nearly as good a post-AOC boost resulted in some easy target on the battlefield for SMs to defeat?
alextroy wrote: I remember seeing that for the first time and thinking the designers decided that 230 points for a 10-model Devestator Squad was right. So they divided it by to 10 get 23 points a model, totally forgetting all the upgrades go in the first 5 models
Think of the second 5 models as also being upgrades to the original 5.
You're paying +23 pts to essentially double the original fives wounds. You also get extra bolter fire & occasionally an increase in CC ability.
Or . . . You just spend the exact same
amount points on a second squad of five and get the heavy weapons+Cherub+Combi+Powerfist.
Hmm. Do I want 5 bolter marines or do I want 5 Marines with much better gear for, let's see, zero more points? Oh the tough decisions GW provides with it's super deep game design!
Not really a tough choice.
Exactly.
I already spend the pts on a 2nd squad. And occasionally a 3rd. I did so when the weapons cost pts, I do now that the weapons are free, and I'll do so in the future if/when the weapons cost pts again. It's just a matter of how many more ablative wounds do I want to invest in for each squad.
Right, and historically I've always taken full squads (three of them). But if the bolters are priced at the same amount as the Heavies, theres much less of an incentive to fill out the squad, isn't there?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/01 00:57:35
I'm not seeing anything worrying like the 62% win rates or 75% top 4 placements we've seen previously when an army was OP. The job for GW now is to look at internal balance it seems.
alextroy wrote: I remember seeing that for the first time and thinking the designers decided that 230 points for a 10-model Devestator Squad was right. So they divided it by to 10 get 23 points a model, totally forgetting all the upgrades go in the first 5 models
Think of the second 5 models as also being upgrades to the original 5.
You're paying +23 pts to essentially double the original fives wounds. You also get extra bolter fire & occasionally an increase in CC ability.
Which isn't worth the points and you know it.
Isn't worth it to you.
Are you going to try to sell me on not taking the free upgrade from S6 AP-3 D1 to S7 AP-4 D2 on my Overlords next? Why do you even take Devastators? If you like the basic bolters so much just take Tacs and get ObSec.
I think it's very hard to argue that in a competitive setting you don't take free upgrades.
Two squads with double the heavy weapons and two sargeants instead of one, both with free upgrades is just such a blatantly obvious choice. Before the change, sure, you could argue for more models. After it there's only one choice.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/01 05:15:53
There are only two people better than me and I'm both of them.
vict0988 wrote: I'm not seeing anything worrying like the 62% win rates or 75% top 4 placements we've seen previously when an army was OP. The job for GW now is to look at internal balance it seems.
alextroy wrote: I remember seeing that for the first time and thinking the designers decided that 230 points for a 10-model Devestator Squad was right. So they divided it by to 10 get 23 points a model, totally forgetting all the upgrades go in the first 5 models
Think of the second 5 models as also being upgrades to the original 5.
You're paying +23 pts to essentially double the original fives wounds. You also get extra bolter fire & occasionally an increase in CC ability.
Which isn't worth the points and you know it.
Isn't worth it to you.
Are you going to try to sell me on not taking the free upgrade from S6 AP-3 D1 to S7 AP-4 D2 on my Overlords next? Why do you even take Devastators? If you like the basic bolters so much just take Tacs and get ObSec.
There's not even a relic for the Hyperphase Sword either LMAO
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Beast_of_Guanyin wrote: I think it's very hard to argue that in a competitive setting you don't take free upgrades.
Why wouldn't you take them for free casually either? You're not gonna run a Devastator squad with just two heavy weapons to begin with are you?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/01 06:13:11
alextroy wrote: I remember seeing that for the first time and thinking the designers decided that 230 points for a 10-model Devestator Squad was right. So they divided it by to 10 get 23 points a model, totally forgetting all the upgrades go in the first 5 models
150 points for the first 5 models with 16 points per additional model would make so much more sense. It is really time GW start thinking about pricing units this way if they want to move to most upgrades are free.
On other subjects, I find it funny people comparing the change to upgrade and body cost between MFM2022 Mk II and MFM2023 Mk I while forgetting the loss of Armor of Contempt. Space Marines cost needed to come down for them to be competitive. Look at what has happened to Adepta Sororitas win and placement rates. They have fallen sharply because they also lost Armor of Contempt and go no discounts, body or upgrades, to compenstate.
Nah, everything in the game pushes you MSU. Blast, upgrade paths, and so on.
Right, and historically I've always taken full squads (three of them). But if the bolters are priced at the same amount as the Heavies, theres much less of an incentive to fill out the squad, isn't there?
There wasn't an incentive before. You could take another 5 Tactical Marines and they get ObSec and another Sergeant for the same price.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/01 10:26:25
Dysartes wrote: In the case of the two Dev squads, under 2023 MFM they're paying 90 points per squad less for gear, but 25 points per squad more for the base bodies. A 5ppm increase on a body doesn't fully offset the saving of not paying 15 points for a lascannon, let alone the 25pts of kit the Sergeant is bring to the party (or the free cherub).
That assumes the old unit price was correct.
*looks at previous winrates. And factors in huge nerf from loss of AOC. Yep. Not expecting old price to be accurate*
There is a cost at which both 5 Devastators and 10 Devastators is viable. That cost isn't 23 pts per model + 10 for MM. That's kind of obvious since I don't think anyone other than Insectum was taking the extra 5 dudes for 18 PPM, so the extra 5 dudes needed to be far less points, not far more points. Maybe something like 15 PPM, that's even if you believe in free wargear.
Right, and historically I've always taken full squads (three of them). But if the bolters are priced at the same amount as the Heavies, theres much less of an incentive to fill out the squad, isn't there?
There wasn't an incentive before. You could take another 5 Tactical Marines and they get ObSec and another Sergeant for the same price.
If you want to leave your expensive Heavy Weapons as easy pickings, sure. . . I didn't.
vict0988 wrote: There is a cost at which both 5 Devastators and 10 Devastators is viable. That cost isn't 23 pts per model + 10 for MM. That's kind of obvious since I don't think anyone other than Insectum was taking the extra 5 dudes for 18 PPM, so the extra 5 dudes needed to be far less points, not far more points. Maybe something like 15 PPM, that's even if you believe in free wargear.
What does 'viable' mean here? What are the extra 5 bolter devs doing? If the extra 5 devs were 18 points thereby saving you 25 points how would they become more viable?
All I can see here is a complaint around a fluffy gamer edge case and not really an issue that needs attention.
vict0988 wrote: There is a cost at which both 5 Devastators and 10 Devastators is viable. That cost isn't 23 pts per model + 10 for MM. That's kind of obvious since I don't think anyone other than Insectum was taking the extra 5 dudes for 18 PPM, so the extra 5 dudes needed to be far less points, not far more points. Maybe something like 15 PPM, that's even if you believe in free wargear.
You shouldn't have Devastators be cheaper than Tactical Marines.
I agree that 23 PPM, mostly free upgrades on Devs is bad design.
But making it a no-brainer choice to take extra bodies is ALSO bad design.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
vict0988 wrote: There is a cost at which both 5 Devastators and 10 Devastators is viable. That cost isn't 23 pts per model + 10 for MM. That's kind of obvious since I don't think anyone other than Insectum was taking the extra 5 dudes for 18 PPM, so the extra 5 dudes needed to be far less points, not far more points. Maybe something like 15 PPM, that's even if you believe in free wargear.
What does 'viable' mean here? What are the extra 5 bolter devs doing? If the extra 5 devs were 18 points thereby saving you 25 points how would they become more viable?
They're doing the things that basic Marines do. Shooting bad guys with bolters. Engaging in CC when it's a good proposition. Throwing Krak grenades at Custodes or whatever. And sometimes they're just acting defensively for their more damage-dealing squadmates. They're being Space Marines, bruh. Duh.
All I can see here is a complaint around a fluffy gamer edge case and not really an issue that needs attention.
It might be an edge case for certain competitive types, although a lot of people DO try to engage in the game for fluff reasons, I'm sure you're aware. Personally I found it quite competitive prior to this nonsensical "free upgrades" paradigm. The lists I settled on for most of 8th ran 28-30 Devastators, and it was the s***.
As for "not really an issue that needs attention" I also disagree. It's just one example highlighting the total idiocy of the current pointing system.
vict0988 wrote: There is a cost at which both 5 Devastators and 10 Devastators is viable. That cost isn't 23 pts per model + 10 for MM. That's kind of obvious since I don't think anyone other than Insectum was taking the extra 5 dudes for 18 PPM, so the extra 5 dudes needed to be far less points, not far more points. Maybe something like 15 PPM, that's even if you believe in free wargear.
You shouldn't have Devastators be cheaper than Tactical Marines.
I agree that 23 PPM, mostly free upgrades on Devs is bad design.
But making it a no-brainer choice to take extra bodies is ALSO bad design.
Agree.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/01 21:28:40
vict0988 wrote: I'm not seeing anything worrying like the 62% win rates or 75% top 4 placements we've seen previously when an army was OP. The job for GW now is to look at internal balance it seems.
alextroy wrote: I remember seeing that for the first time and thinking the designers decided that 230 points for a 10-model Devestator Squad was right. So they divided it by to 10 get 23 points a model, totally forgetting all the upgrades go in the first 5 models
Think of the second 5 models as also being upgrades to the original 5.
You're paying +23 pts to essentially double the original fives wounds. You also get extra bolter fire & occasionally an increase in CC ability.
Which isn't worth the points and you know it.
Isn't worth it to you.
Are you going to try to sell me on not taking the free upgrade from S6 AP-3 D1 to S7 AP-4 D2 on my Overlords next? Why do you even take Devastators? If you like the basic bolters so much just take Tacs and get ObSec.
There's not even a relic for the Hyperphase Sword either LMAO
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Beast_of_Guanyin wrote: I think it's very hard to argue that in a competitive setting you don't take free upgrades.
Why wouldn't you take them for free casually either? You're not gonna run a Devastator squad with just two heavy weapons to begin with are you?
I did not comment on casual usage of them.
Casually people can do as they like.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/02 04:36:29
There are only two people better than me and I'm both of them.
