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I mean the Dawn of war books hint at Primus being a sort of "father" of the primaris. Does that mean Cawl might be working on re-starting the Primarch Program/initiative? What would happen if he just showed up on Terra with a new 10+ foot Primarch and was like, "This is Tim, the primarch of the McGuffin Rangers!"

Would Terra or the powers that be be forced to "acknowledge" it? Being a "son" of the Emperor and all, or as much a son as the others are... Techno heresy theory aside, what would be the actual ramifications of Cawl creating a new primarch, or revealing he/it has the capacity to even do so? He could remake lost primarchs. He has all the gene stock. Or access to it. If he Jurrassic Park'd Russ or Dorn, down to the molecular level, so it's basically an exact copy, would the legions/chapters follow it? Aren't they gene-coded to follow their primarchs?

If 40k moved in this direction, of Mega-Spider-John-Hammond bringing back the old gang, would it ruin 40k?

Lore-accurate answer: Cawl is promptly executed for tech heresy, the "primarch" is killed, and everything about the abomination is purged from existence.

Real answer: the new primarch is embraced by everyone, declared the new Emperor, and given a million new super-primaris marines to lead a new crusade to kill all those stupid NPC factions. GW has to sell models after all.

He already tried to make one. That's what the Alpha Primus is. He didn't succeed though, the Alpha Primus is incredibly strong but isn't Primarch level.

The trouble here is that in creating the Primaris, Cawl had access to all that’s believed to have remained from the original Primarch and Astartes programmes, and had done so since Guilliman set him about the task.

But those records are incomplete. In that time, he was able to engineer 3 additional organs. One is the….

40k Wiki wrote:Magnificat (The Amplifier) - A small, thumbnail-sized lobe that is inserted into the brain's cortex. The Magnificat secretes hormones that increase the body's growth functions whilst also intensifying the function of its other transhuman implants, especially those of the Biscopea and the Ossmodula. In truth, the Magnificat is but half of the true, dual-valve Immortis Gland (the so-called God-Maker) that the Emperor created for His primarchs. However, Archmagos Cawl could only find materials and genetic blueprints to build the Dextrophic Lobe (the right half of the Immortis Gland), while plans for the Sintarius (the left half) that would complete the original super-organ had been wholly eradicated from Imperial records of the Primarch Project. Whether this was done by the Emperor's own hand or by some nefarious source, Cawl could not tell.

In short? He can’t do it, as at least one part of vital information is missing. And with even the genetic blueprints gone, one can only guess at what the other half of it actually did in the first place.


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But, if he could? I’m not sure he would.

He was able to avoid censure for the Primaris, on account his order came from the then Regent of Terra - Guilliman. And when he revealed the fruit of his labours, Guilliman was about to confirm that, and indeed back him up against any dissent.

But to create a new Primarch? I’m far from convinced even Guilliman, as Regent of Terra, would have that authority.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

But to create a new Primarch? I’m far from convinced even Guilliman, as Regent of Terra, would have that authority.

Who would call him out over it? As far as I know, the Emperor is the only one who could and he is not very talkative nowadays.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

But to create a new Primarch? I’m far from convinced even Guilliman, as Regent of Terra, would have that authority.

Who would call him out over it? As far as I know, the Emperor is the only one who could and he is not very talkative nowadays.

The Church would.

High Lords of Terra might also as well

Mechanicus could too.

The Imperium stands both divided and united and Guilliman has to walk a fine line. There are many powerful groups within the Imperium with different viewpoints and opinions. War and pressure from outside keeps them united, but if someone tips the balance of power between the factions too much, they will push back. Trying to create a demi-god when you're not the Emperor would likely see you excommunicated and marked as as a heretic and hunted. It's the kind of action that could tear the Imperium in half politically and end up weakening its position. And with all the threats right now the Imperium cannot suffer a second civil war.

In short whilst he has brought great change, he is also trapped by thousands of years of madness, dogma, religion and more. Those are going to be super hard to shift and trying to boldly create a new Primarch might be just the thing that takes it too far.

 Overread wrote:

Mechanicus could too.

That would be a plot twist considering Cawl is running the Mechanicus unopposed. Similarly, if I remember the story right Guilliman has already told both the Ministorium and the High Lords to STFU and even had a "I'm the Senate!" moment with the latter. Like, anyone trying to get Guilliman excommunicated would only get excommunicated for realsies in return, I don't think the Imperium is the kind of place where a rando can just disagree with the Lord Regent of Terra and get away with it. That's heresy. But the Lord Regent going haywire and burning everyone who disagrees is "just" hypocrisy.

Pretty much what Overread said.

But I would add even if it didn’t cause outright Civil War, it could damage cooperation between the various wings of The Imperium. Yes having a new Primarch or even Primarchs might be useful, but not if it causes further division and political bickering.


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 AtoMaki wrote:

 Overread wrote:

Mechanicus could too.

That would be a plot twist considering Cawl is running the Mechanicus unopposed. Similarly, if I remember the story right Guilliman has already told both the Ministorium and the High Lords to STFU and even had a "I'm the Senate!" moment with the latter. Like, anyone trying to get Guilliman excommunicated would only get excommunicated for realsies in return, I don't think the Imperium is the kind of place where a rando can just disagree with the Lord Regent of Terra and get away with it. That's heresy. But the Lord Regent going haywire and burning everyone who disagrees is "just" hypocrisy.

The Imperium, against all good sense, actually does kind of work. But rivalries exist. It’s kind of a tenuous alliance of mutually supporting elements. That’s still a fairly fragile alliance, and you can’t afford to really piss any one wing off.

Cawl isn’t in charge of the Ad Mech. High in its rankings, yes. But not Fabricator General. Nor can Guilliman install him as such. Give him backing and shield him with Guilliman’s own authority? Yes. Declare him Fabricator General? Absolutely not.

Though Lexicanum suggests Cawl wants Guilliman to do, but is being refused due to distrust. Source listed in Dark Imperium, which I guess I should read some time.

It’s much the same reason that Guilliman tolerates the Ecclesiarchy, despite it standing against everything The Emperor wanted. Now is simply not the time to be rocking that boat - and there’s the hint that Guilliman may have reason to believe Dad is in fact now Divine.

Isn't Cawl going to find it tricky to get the Warp energy to imbue this theoretical new Primarch with, the same way Big E did?

 Dysartes wrote:
Isn't Cawl going to find it tricky to get the Warp energy to imbue this theoretical new Primarch with, the same way Big E did?

Potentially yes, but Cawl is also running around like an old-times prospector and diggin' for Blackstone, which now is also a warp amplifier, not only a dampener. Plot so thickened you could eat it with a fork

Cawl likes to push his luck but knows Guilliman has very little patience for him. The Primaris were a requirement, one that Guilliman ordered the creation of.
Making a whole Primarch and a Legion on top of that without any sort of interference from any outside organisation or individuals would be nigh impossible for Cawl. He's not Fabricator General specifically because Guilliman doesn't trust him after all and there is no way the Inquisition, Mechanicus, Custodes and Guilliman don't have spies reporting his movements.

So, if Cawl's death was marked by the officio assassinorum, who could honestly claim they'd killed the "real Cawl". He already has two different "minor clones" of himself. Who's to say at any given point, the Cawl you are dealing with is the REAL one? He could have 1,000s of Cawl Minors running around. The more I think about it, the more I feel like this is what GW wanted to do with the lore, and the primaris. But the fan back lash was sooooo strong, they cancelled the plan. I mean, from the books its clear he was trying to make a new Primarch. He would honestly make the perfect "puppet master BBEG" behind the imperium. Ushering in a new DAOT, where Primaris are basically a new Heretic faction.

I think there are hallmarks that GW could move toward splitting the Imperium in half. Such a move isn't really about selling more models nor I think about creating a new Imperial faction or new Marine faction; so much as it is about releasing some of the stranglehold on Xenos forces and other races. For a long long time the lore has been that, barring Tau, almost all other aliens are unable to get their heads up because of the Imperium controlling so much territory. Fragmenting the Imperium down the middle would at least release that huge potential.

But we've also hallmarks of Necrons uniting under one banner; Eldar potentially reforming into an aggressive faction taking territories; Tyranids launching a super-mega invasion

 Dysartes wrote:
Isn't Cawl going to find it tricky to get the Warp energy to imbue this theoretical new Primarch with, the same way Big E did?

^^^This. It's heavily, heavily implied there's more to the creation of a Primarch than just the genetics. We've seen a few Primarchs cloned and none of them matched up tot he original. It seems there's some kind of warpcraft required to create a proper Primarch and it's highly likely the Emperor is the only one with the knowledge and power required to do that.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, if Cawl's death was marked by the officio assassinorum, who could honestly claim they'd killed the "real Cawl". He already has two different "minor clones" of himself. Who's to say at any given point, the Cawl you are dealing with is the REAL one? He could have 1,000s of Cawl Minors running around. The more I think about it, the more I feel like this is what GW wanted to do with the lore, and the primaris. But the fan back lash was sooooo strong, they cancelled the plan. I mean, from the books its clear he was trying to make a new Primarch. He would honestly make the perfect "puppet master BBEG" behind the imperium. Ushering in a new DAOT, where Primaris are basically a new Heretic faction.

If Cawl created a Primarch and a Legion of Astartes then got found out, the Assassinorum wouldn't need to get involved because Guilliman himself would burn the project and make sure every last Cawl was hunted down and destroyed.
Cawl has power but not nearly enough that he could challenge Guilliman and those who would back him. He can push the limits by doing his own side quests that roughly align with Guilliman's aims but even then he isn't free to do whatever he wants.
And also god no your headcanon is just utterly wrong. GW made Primaris to get current Marine players to rebuy their armies and to inject some life into the Marine range so it wasn't just updating older kits and adding the odd plane. Cawl being a rogue doesn't mean he's going to form his own Imperium. He's fine with the one there is, he just wants to be Fabricator General.

I'm not saying it wouldn't happen eventually, but you have to admit, that if Cawl were to suddenly break off as an independant (Non imperial alligned) faction, almost half the Mechanicus would go with him. That includes Titans, ForgeWorlds, Skitarri, etc. The Imperium can't afford to lose half their entire war production. Imagine if Mars (likely the most heavily pro-Cawl) were to just suddenly decide to throw up the bird to the Administratum. Entire Crusades would grind to a halt. No more Primaris, no more titans, no more Mars pattern anything. Also, if Cawl goes, I'd imagine a large percentage of all known tech goes with him. I'd bet that Terra would listen rather than attack faced with that possibility.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm not saying it wouldn't happen eventually, but you have to admit, that if Cawl were to suddenly break off as an independant (Non imperial alligned) faction, almost half the Mechanicus would go with him. That includes Titans, ForgeWorlds, Skitarri, etc.

Why would they? Cawl is a pariah that only gets to keep existing because he first hid away on his Ark Mechanicus doing secret projects and research ignoring the Mechanicus' politics and now he has the protection of the Risen Primarch so he is untouchable without sparking issues with Guilliman.
He isn't popular amongst the Mechanicus, especially the upper echelons. He has his personal forces and some Primaris but nothing like the resources you suggest. And when push comes to shove, he doesn't nearly have the influence to bring Titan Legions to his side like during the Martian Civil War in the Heresy, especially when he would lose any backing and protection afforded to him by his close alliance with Guilliman.

Imagine if Mars (likely the most heavily pro-Cawl) were to just suddenly decide to throw up the bird to the Administratum.

Got any evidence to back that up? How can it be "likely" the most pro-Cawl when Mars is one of, if not the most conservative Mechanicus Forge World in the Imperium?
You're talking absolute guff.