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 Thumpingbear wrote:
Male-only Space Marines are unchangeable facet of 40k.

So were many things, right up until GW changed them to sell new model kits. If the lore can accept primaris marines then it can accept female marines.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

 Thumpingbear wrote:
Male-only Space Marines are unchangeable facet of 40k.

So were many things, right up until GW changed them to sell new model kits. If the lore can accept primaris marines then it can accept female marines.

The lore can support abnormally short yet burly humanoids somewhat reminiscent of Scottish gingers swinging two handed Gimli axes. GW ego could not support calling them Squats. Sisters will get Geneseed before Marines get women.

Gunna copy and paste one of my main points here since it seems people haven't yet gotten it:

"Ultimately, let's remember we're talking about a fictional setting where nothing is concrete. GW are well known for ret-conning and changing the lore as it suits their business model or future plans. They've done it before and will do it again. Nothing is written in stone, no piece of text is gospel, it is FICTION and it is fiction surrounding plastic toy soldiers."

And furthermore, don't base your personality on lore from any fictional setting. It's not a good thing to beat your chest about.

 Thumpingbear wrote:
The second is the stagnation and regression of the setting: 40k is set in the Dark Ages of an empire, where enlightenment has devolved back into ignorance and superstition, and technological progress is impossible.

Primaris Marines say 'Hi!'

Even before Primaris, technological progress was never impossible, just slow. The setting has seen any number of technological advancements through innovation, or improvements based on finding lost technology.

If we're going to oppose women Marines on the basis of technological advancement being 'impossible' then we also need to be complaining about Mk8 armour, modern-era plasma guns, man-portable multimeltas, Razorbacks, the Spartan (which was originally just a modified Land Raider with Rhino parts) and any number of other things in the current Marine line-up.

I find it really, really bizarre that of all of the things that have been added over the years, women specifically are one bridge too far.

My point with this being that there is no path forward for creating feMarines, no one (outside of Chaotic aligned characters) has the mindset nor the intelligence to devise such a method. The only way to get around this is the ol' "it was here the entire time but IN SECRET" (such as Cawl and the Primaris), a very hamfisted and hack method to introduce things of such importance into the setting - and if such hokey methods are needed, it shouldn't be there at all.

It really isn't. As I mentioned earlier, the easiest was to do it is just to say 'Hey, we tried it on a woman, and despite what we previously believed to be true, it worked.' It's not only a simple solution, but fits perfectly within the bounds of the technological constraints of the setting... It was always possible, but nobody previously thought to try it because they were told not to, because it supposedly didn't work and would be a waste of resources.

 insaniak wrote:

I find it really, really bizarre that of all of the things that have been added over the years, women specifically are one bridge too far.

From the players, sure its a little weird. From the company? Makes total sense. Any RetCon now would pretty much be an admission of "fault" on their part. As I pointed out just above, they didn't even bring back Squats after a silly crusade against anyone who even mentioned the word, they brought out the Legion of Votann.

It really isn't. As I mentioned earlier, the easiest was to do it is just to say 'Hey, we tried it on a woman, and despite what we previously believed to be true, it worked.' It's not only a simple solution, but fits perfectly within the bounds of the technological constraints of the setting... It was always possible, but nobody previously thought to try it because they were told not to, because it supposedly didn't work and would be a waste of resources.

But that exposes GW to "Why didn't you do that in the first place" issues. I wholeheartedly agree any society that grows new and genetically improved hearts, ears and eyeballs among other internal organs while simultaneously lobotomizing other people into mechanized computer-controlled observer-assistants could figure out how and when to give people a hormone shot or slow-release implant so the process would work on nearly anyone. The stumbling block is not the fluff. The stumbling block is the PR. Cawl will make Primaris Sisters before GW makes female Marines. That gives them all the "credit" and nearly none of the "blame". They will have made Superwoman without angering Superman fans, or without having to explain why they never made Superwoman before angry mobs were breaking down their door.

Breton wrote:
From the players, sure its a little weird. From the company? Makes total sense. Any RetCon now would pretty much be an admission of "fault" on their part. As I pointed out just above, they didn't even bring back Squats after a silly crusade against anyone who even mentioned the word, they brought out the Legion of Votann.

The point is that it doesn't have to be a retcon. The time when the timeline just marched in place and any new thing was something that is now suddenly 'was always there' are long gone. Introducing female marines as an advancement rather than a retcon would cause considerably less friction.

But that exposes GW to "Why didn't you do that in the first place" issues.

It really doesn't. They didn't do it in the first place because the when they tried it the first time female models didn't sell. Times change.

I've put that I don't care one way or the other, because I'm both for and against it.

1. I don't care how people paint or model their minis, as long as its not offensive in any way (like that guy that painted a certain skull on his Knights a while back claiming he thought it was just a "cool skull"). If you want marines with boobs, marines with two heads, eldar with 30 legs and neon pink skin, go for it. As long as it doesn't effect the gameplay, you do you.

2. In the lore, there's no female marines. I can't remember the justification why, but it's in the lore. We've also already got a faction of females in power armour that are the halfway between AM and SM, so there's no need to step on their toes. Instead of retconning stuff, just keep it how it is (unless it's obviously bad or offensive or whatever). I don't want much innovation from my supposedly backward Imperium.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
2. In the lore, there's no female marines. I can't remember the justification why, but it's in the lore.

The justification in the background is that the process is keyed to 'male hormones'... which is the sort of throwaway comment that was fine back in the early '90s despite not actually making any sense because nobody took this stuff particularly seriously.

These days, it's harder to take 'hormones' as a serious impediment to the process.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
2. In the lore, there's no female marines.

In the lore there were no primaris marines until suddenly there were. In the lore there was an explicit separation of powers agreement that marines had no combat aircraft and had to rely on navy support until GW decided marine aircraft would sell and gave them a bunch of air superiority fighters. In the lore 30k stuff was long-forgotten relics until someone found a whole vault of volkite contemptors to issue to every chapter. In the lore marines were cannon fodder shock troops recruited from convicted criminals until suddenly they were warrior-monk heroes. In the lore the Ultramarines had a half-elf chief librarian until GW decided that was a bit too heretical. GW constantly changes the lore to suit business needs or some random author's whim so why is female marines the one line that can never be crossed?

 insaniak wrote:

Breton wrote:
From the players, sure its a little weird. From the company? Makes total sense. Any RetCon now would pretty much be an admission of "fault" on their part. As I pointed out just above, they didn't even bring back Squats after a silly crusade against anyone who even mentioned the word, they brought out the Legion of Votann.

The point is that it doesn't have to be a retcon. The time when the timeline just marched in place and any new thing was something that is now suddenly 'was always there' are long gone. Introducing female marines as an advancement rather than a retcon would cause considerably less friction.

Sure it is. Going from "It doesn't work that way" to "We only thought it doesn't work that way" is a retcon.

But that exposes GW to "Why didn't you do that in the first place" issues.

It really doesn't. They didn't do it in the first place because the when they tried it the first time female models didn't sell. Times change.

They didn't do it that way in the first place because it was 40+ years ago and nobody even considered it. GW didn't put a lot of DEEP thought into the fluff. They picked a bunch of different societal/cultural eras and molded them onto their factions. Imperium? Germanic, with a little Italian thrown in. High Elves? Elizabethan era Brits. Tomb Kings and Necrons? Walk like an Egyptian. Ultramarines? Greco Romans. Space Viking Wolves? They didn't even really consider female combatants beyond a one-off historical wink and nod here and there like the French Aurthurian legends of Repanse de Lyonese praying to the Lady of the Lake.

Then they didn't do it because they just got rid of the D12's and D20's and didn't want another reason for Moms to tell little Timmy he can't play. Then they were stuck. Now people are vandalizing statues of Washington and Lincoln. I don't think the designers care either way and would most prefer it to go away or that they weren't already locked into a position. After that, the best solution in the one with the least fall out - and that's upgrading Sisters. It the Venn Diagram of people who don't want female marines, the people who don't want female combatants, the people who want Super Women that don't HAVE to be Marines, and the people who specifically want female Marines, they get the best results catering to the two likely biggest groups: the people who don't want female marines and the ones who want a Super Woman that doesn't have to be a marine. People who don't want female combatants are already next to nil - they would have quit with Sisters. People who specifically want Female Marines will likely be smaller in number than the remaining two groups.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

 Afrodactyl wrote:
2. In the lore, there's no female marines.

In the lore there were no primaris marines until suddenly there were. In the lore there was an explicit separation of powers agreement that marines had no combat aircraft and had to rely on navy support until GW decided marine aircraft would sell and gave them a bunch of air superiority fighters. In the lore 30k stuff was long-forgotten relics until someone found a whole vault of volkite contemptors to issue to every chapter. In the lore marines were cannon fodder shock troops recruited from convicted criminals until suddenly they were warrior-monk heroes. In the lore the Ultramarines had a half-elf chief librarian until GW decided that was a bit too heretical. GW constantly changes the lore to suit business needs or some random author's whim so why is female marines the one line that can never be crossed?

Some changes remain unnecessary and dumb. Such as Primaris, Centurions, and Air Superiority Fighters.

I don't think female marines is dumb, mind you, but it's certainly unnecessary.

- - - -

On the "all female faction and all male faction" issue, the problem with Marines being overrepresented is a real one. However even in the theoretical world where Sisters had equal representation, you still get the "boy" army with extra strength, toughness and wounds over the "girl" army, which doesn't feel great.

Decrease the amount of Marine exposure, and make female Custodes. Female Custodes would be rad.

Qualified yes. Make no mistake if it doesn't change I'll still enjoy marines but I'd like to see female astartes, even if it is just cawl.scoffing 'it could always be done'. I mean, marines are the protagonist and the 'public face' of 40k and grossly over represent when compared to the other factions. They 'are' 40k, everything else is a sideshow. They're sold as a blank canvas and can be coloured wuth whatever theme, culture or background you can conceive. Except, you know, gurls. Seems a bit silly.


My 'yes' is qualified because if it was done, I'd want to see it done well. I'd want good models as priority. Even if its just a headsprue and for the female 'lines' and 'curves' be more subtle rather than over the top boobplate, cheesecake or fan service models for example. Lets keep that rubbish out. Preferably keep the models themselves more neutral so a bare head is all that would show what gender it was*. ^to those saying youd not be able to tell the difference, yoirr half right, i think. look at female crossfitters. you can still be built epic and still.have your femininity.would you see all that under power armour? Probs not though. I'd still want female astartes to be pretty monstrous individuals rather than care bears.

* yes, they'te post-humans dumped with astartestosterone. What they were when they were human is irrelevant


I think if 40k was 'just' conceived or marines were a 'new' faction (coughstormcast) - we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Having female, or post-female astartes would just be a thing. Its only Male-only because of the supposed 'weight' of 40 years of history behind it, which is fair enough. But so have plenty other things and as the tau say, the one constant in the universe is change, the wise adapt. I have no problem with lore changes just like I have no problems with a lot of culture changes. Sometimes things need to change and gw doesn't hold their lore to be sacrosanct. It's not a hill I'll die on, thank you very much.

I'd have more concern about the deadbeats in the dark corners if the community writing awful fetish fanfics and whatever, but that's a different discussion.

Deadnight wrote:

I'd have more concern about the deadbeats in the dark corners if the community writing awful fetish fanfics and whatever, but that's a different discussion.

I’m probably going to regret asking, but is that a large issue in the community?

Tsagualsa wrote:
In my headcanon they exist, but between hormonal and surgical treatments since before puberty really set in and growing up in a more or less genderless society of battle-brothers you'd have no way to tell unless you got in their pants. Astartes are largely sex- and genderless anyway, and at their size and muscle mass people start to look same-ish no matter what.

This. That's one thing I imagine most people don't seem to understand. It's not just someone in power armour like the Adeptus Sororitas. Space marines are surgically and chemically altered, so much so it changes their biology to be beyond human.

 insaniak wrote:

It really isn't. As I mentioned earlier, the easiest was to do it is just to say 'Hey, we tried it on a woman, and despite what we previously believed to be true, it worked.' It's not only a simple solution, but fits perfectly within the bounds of the technological constraints of the setting... It was always possible, but nobody previously thought to try it because they were told not to, because it supposedly didn't work and would be a waste of resources.

You can do this elegant-ish-ly: we all know that the Emperor cut a lot of corners and operated under time pressure for the start of the Great Crusade due to his grand plan; make it so that female marines were possible, but not as well-developed as males. Say that instead 1 in 10 potential candidates being suitable for all implants it's 1 in 30 or 1 in 50, and maybe the progenoids are extra problematic and the least likely to 'fit'. So, due to the need to expand the legions rapidly and get the Crusade going, the Emperor decided to go with all males for now and put it on the fix-it-later pile, which of course ran into the whole heresy problem. So, 10 millenia later, general degradation of knowledge and the stuck routines of the imperium have turned 'it can be done, but it is overly expensive and not economical' into a flat 'can not be done', until wonderboy Cawl actually invested the centuries of development time necessary to iron out the flaws in the process.

It ties into the whole theme of the Emperor operating on a much grander scheme and due to constraints nobody else had the faintest idea, and not really caring about the individual human tools he needed to achieve his goals.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

I'd have more concern about the deadbeats in the dark corners if the community writing awful fetish fanfics and whatever, but that's a different discussion.

I’m probably going to regret asking, but is that a large issue in the community?

Depends very much on what part of the community you frequent. Certain parts of reddit are certainly very 'ripe' with the stuff, to the point that 'famous' users have devoted communities that follow their works.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

I'd have more concern about the deadbeats in the dark corners if the community writing awful fetish fanfics and whatever, but that's a different discussion.

I’m probably going to regret asking, but is that a large issue in the community?

How large of an issue depends on how much it bothers you, I'd say. I'd also say you probably wouldn't have to look very far for a fanfic of the forbidden but torrid love affair between Captain Fabios Harlequinn and Colonel Emma Weinstein of Planetary Defense Forces, or a description of the bathing rituals of Celestine and her handmaidens in their Saintly Citadel located on the historical location of the Isle of Lesbos in what used to be the Aegean Sea. And that's just what I made up - there was an actual cartoon about some guy who was dating a girl from I think the Steel Legion and the comic foibles of her training vs civilian life.

Jarms48 wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:
In my headcanon they exist, but between hormonal and surgical treatments since before puberty really set in and growing up in a more or less genderless society of battle-brothers you'd have no way to tell unless you got in their pants. Astartes are largely sex- and genderless anyway, and at their size and muscle mass people start to look same-ish no matter what.

This. That's one thing I imagine most people don't seem to understand. It's not just someone in power armour like the Adeptus Sororitas. Space marines are surgically and chemically altered, so much so it changes their biology to be beyond human.

You say that, but the ultimate goal is boob plates on supermodels in Primaris armor.

 Just Tony wrote:

Jarms48 wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:
In my headcanon they exist, but between hormonal and surgical treatments since before puberty really set in and growing up in a more or less genderless society of battle-brothers you'd have no way to tell unless you got in their pants. Astartes are largely sex- and genderless anyway, and at their size and muscle mass people start to look same-ish no matter what.

This. That's one thing I imagine most people don't seem to understand. It's not just someone in power armour like the Adeptus Sororitas. Space marines are surgically and chemically altered, so much so it changes their biology to be beyond human.

You say that, but the ultimate goal is boob plates on supermodels in Primaris armor.

I think most would settle simply for acknowledgement that they exist, and maybe some head pieces.

 insaniak wrote:

 Afrodactyl wrote:
2. In the lore, there's no female marines. I can't remember the justification why, but it's in the lore.

The justification in the background is that the process is keyed to 'male hormones'... which is the sort of throwaway comment that was fine back in the early '90s despite not actually making any sense because nobody took this stuff particularly seriously.

These days, it's harder to take 'hormones' as a serious impediment to the process.

Taking things seriously nowadays is the root of this problem.

From what I've seen over the last few years, most of those asking for female marines very specifically don't want boob plate.

Which is just one of the reasons SoB aren't a valid substitute.

I'd love to see the black library guys try and include it in the fluff. You'd have to explain the biological form and gender identity of characters in power armour each time they're introduced to make it clear, define the pronouns for each character in conversation. The conversation between marines of all genders and sisters of battle of all genders would be a minefield.

Then I take a step back and realise a lot of this is likely why they keep the entirely fictional setting as it is. It's easier to maintain the consistency and not step on toes by sticking to what they have.

I'm all for inclusiveness and representation, I just don't think it has to be forcibly introduced to every scenario if the setting doesn't need or call for it.

Dudeface wrote:
I'd love to see the black library guys try and include it in the fluff. You'd have to explain the biological form and gender identity of characters in power armour each time they're introduced to make it clear, define the pronouns for each character in conversation. The conversation between marines of all genders and sisters of battle of all genders would be a minefield.

Given that this isn't an issue for stories involving Guard, or Eldar, or Mechanicus, or the Inquisition, or Votann, I feel like you might be reaching, here.

 insaniak wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I'd love to see the black library guys try and include it in the fluff. You'd have to explain the biological form and gender identity of characters in power armour each time they're introduced to make it clear, define the pronouns for each character in conversation. The conversation between marines of all genders and sisters of battle of all genders would be a minefield.

Given that this isn't an issue for stories involving Guard, or Eldar, or Mechanicus, or the Inquisition, or Votann, I feel like you might be reaching, here.

OK, an astartes named "Mary" enters the dialogue, how do you identify them as an astartes? How do you identify them as a person without a long explanation of their appearance etc. Are they a "sister" in the event they're a female marine? If so how does a dialogue with a sister of battle play out? What about a "brother" of the bloodied rose speaking to an iron hand?

For those stories you'll also note the characters are generally confrom to gender norms, they're females with female names and female appearances. I don't recall any black library with a trans gender eldar for example. If there is it was not done in a way it was obvious enough someone could identify with them.

 insaniak wrote:

Breton wrote:
From the players, sure its a little weird. From the company? Makes total sense. Any RetCon now would pretty much be an admission of "fault" on their part. As I pointed out just above, they didn't even bring back Squats after a silly crusade against anyone who even mentioned the word, they brought out the Legion of Votann.

The point is that it doesn't have to be a retcon. The time when the timeline just marched in place and any new thing was something that is now suddenly 'was always there' are long gone. Introducing female marines as an advancement rather than a retcon would cause considerably less friction.

He says, as people still gripe about Primaris.

It really doesn't. They didn't do it in the first place because the when they tried it the first time female models didn't sell. Times change.

Yes, which is why they redid the Sisters line and are actually supporting them, as well as showing off more guardswomen. Which is great, display those parts of the fluff and let the Marines remain battle brothers and monastic knights, that's where their theming and inspiration comes from.
Do you really want GW to push marines even harder and put Sisters to the side? If female marines become a thing you can bet that Sisters are getting thrown back into the Oubliette.

Dudeface wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I'd love to see the black library guys try and include it in the fluff. You'd have to explain the biological form and gender identity of characters in power armour each time they're introduced to make it clear, define the pronouns for each character in conversation. The conversation between marines of all genders and sisters of battle of all genders would be a minefield.

Given that this isn't an issue for stories involving Guard, or Eldar, or Mechanicus, or the Inquisition, or Votann, I feel like you might be reaching, here.

OK, an astartes named "Mary" enters the dialogue, how do you identify them as an astartes? How do you identify them as a person without a long explanation of their appearance etc. Are they a "sister" in the event they're a female marine? If so how does a dialogue with a sister of battle play out? What about a "brother" of the bloodied rose speaking to an iron hand?

For those stories you'll also note the characters are generally confrom to gender norms, they're females with female names and female appearances. I don't recall any black library with a trans gender eldar for example. If there is it was not done in a way it was obvious enough someone could identify with them.

How is a Brother Balthasar that used to be a Amazon in the jungle tribes of Sambesi III different to Brother Eradicus that was a fierce warrior on the plains of Vandal Prime? They are remade through the process of becoming an astartes, leave their old roles and ties behind and for all intents and purposes adapt a totally new identity. 'Astartes' is the core, and in the overwhelming majority of cases, the entirety of their personality.

As for the Eldar, both Harlequins and Aspect Warriors regularly change their gender presentation when performing a role or walking a specific path.

If we could ask stick to discussing the actual topic rather than casting aspersions on those with different opinions, that would help keep the thread on track, folks.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Custodes would've been the place to introduce a force of both genetically modified men and women. Like, almost no lore for them existed, so added that bit wouldn't have made anyone care. I would've even supported it.

For Marines? Nah, it's been like that for decades. I'm not in the interest of catering to a few people on Twitter.

Indeed, Wraight (I believe) Wanted to introduce female custodes in his books but was told it was not allowed because the models were all male already.


Mostly I headcanon it by the emperor being a bronze age warlord and thus a turbo misogynist. I mean, he literally made the female special order NEVER TALK.


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DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

Tyel wrote:
How about where's the female Orks? I guess if they retconned it so half the Marines in the Horus Heresy were female - heck, half the Primarchs - well, I'd probably laugh.

Aren’t Orks gender less anyway?

THey're not mammalian. They don't have sex organs

But orks are also obviously all male. They are an extremely, deliberately, gendered faction


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
In current lore it's a nono, what i never understood is in chaos. There anything is possible, and female chaos marines should be around.

Chaos as represented by chaos marines is the imperium but even worse. It's not anti imperium, it's the excesses of the imperium taken to the logical extreme


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hecaton wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Yeah, this is the main thing for me. Because marines are the poster boy faction that gets placed in the protagonist role for a lot of the video games, books, etc., they're a lot of folks' first impression of the game/universe. And I just worry that having a boys-only club so prominently featured might discourage some people from taking an interest in the hobby.

That's pretty much all it boils down to for me. If guard or skitarii or orks or the inquisition were the "main faction," I'd be fine with marines being a boys-only club the same way I'm fine with Sisters being a girls-only club.

We don't need to worry about that - other miniatures games have gender-integrated flagship factions and you don't see a rush of women joining those games. If you're serious, anyway, that's my reply - you might be concern trolling.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lammia wrote:
'Lore' needs to die in a bin fire.

Other than that, Space Marines are Trans-humans. And thus should be post Gender.

Your conclusion doesn't follow from your premise.

I mean, with attitudes like this, no shock you personally don't see a lot of female players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

 Afrodactyl wrote:
2. In the lore, there's no female marines. I can't remember the justification why, but it's in the lore.

The justification in the background is that the process is keyed to 'male hormones'... which is the sort of throwaway comment that was fine back in the early '90s despite not actually making any sense because nobody took this stuff particularly seriously.

These days, it's harder to take 'hormones' as a serious impediment to the process.

If you read the actual justification that priestley penned in 1988 (notably, after there were actual female space marine models produced. Yeah, they used to exist), it's a whole lot of biotruth nonsense by a guy who doesn't know biology and makes up words to go "And girls have cooties so they aren't allowed to be space marines."

It reads REAL bad in 2023.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:
From what I've seen over the last few years, most of those asking for female marines very specifically don't want boob plate.

Which is just one of the reasons SoB aren't a valid substitute.

SoB were created by a guy with a fetish and haven't ever fully escaped that original fetish.

I'm against it mainly as I haven't yet seen a concrete reason why there should be female marines besides "we need to be inclusive", which to me isn't a good enough reason. Don't fix something that isn't broken.

Some people in here stated that they are okay with the change because GW already did change something that they disliked so much that they don't care about further changes like this.
Which is a good argument against female Space Marines. The chance that it will lead to more people caring less about the lore is there. And only because GW did something unpopular in the past with their fluff doesn't mean they should do it again.

The setting as a whole is not a big monolithic piece, it consists of hundreds or thousands of smaller and bigger stories, lore pieces and throw away mentionings. Changing a single thing among those would not alter the setting 180° around, but it will take away some uniqueness about it, if not done carefully.

I like my Salamanders to be obsidian black with red eyes. The setting - imho - would not benefit from having non-obsidian skin colors in that chapter.
I like my Blood Angels to turn their feral aspirants into vampire super models during initiation. The setting - imho - would not benefit from having "normal looking" dudes dorning the red armour.
I like my Sisters to be female only. The decree is an essential and memorable part of the faction identity. The setting - imho - would not benefit from having men at arms fighting for the Imperial church.

If female Space Marines would be introduced, it has to feel natural and organic in a way that would make the setting overall better. As I said before, if the main concern is "let's be more inclusive" instead of "this is good for the lore", then it probably should be reconsidered. I can see an angle to do it if the perspective on Space Marines would change from heroic individuals to basically just "every able body is transformed into a personality lacking murder machine. Every Space Marine is a tool to be used until it is broken". But this is not the 40k today. And quite honestly, people seem to like their Marine heroes and villains.

Nope!

we aren't talking rouge trader here where they were throwing everything out there to make a parody of the big GW flagship game at the time-WHFBs between 2nd and 4th ed the lore was fixed and stayed fixed until Cawl. and many of us hate that change to the lore.

There is plenty of representation in the universe of 40K SOB are the most obvious thing that everybody points to, but there are female guardsmen, arbities, assassins, inquisitors etc... just in the imperium alone. the in universe lore is very specific that women cannot be space marines as the process to make a space marine are literally genetic copies of the primarch who are male.

The lore is the lore, it is why things like rings of power bombed so badly and Peter Jacksons LOTRs movies are so loved. one tried to wear the universe as a skin suit to make some personal train wreck, while the other was trying to make a movie for the creator and his fans. It wasn't about himself or his personal ideas it was about the universe that has it's own rules.