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stroller wrote:
I'm agin it.

I'm happy enough with the lore. I strongly dislike the Necron retcon, and I see no need for change. I accept that others want it: I don't. I do have other female figures (dark eldar in particular) but what does female marines gain? Nothing that I see... but if you want it, go for it.

What do we lose if we do? Stuff has been changed before and stuff will get changed again, so there really isn’t a reason this can’t happen

I think drbored has summarised this best. I will plonk myself into group C.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

The Imprrium turns a blind eye when it works in its favor. Otherwise they probably would’ve destroyed Krieg.

I'm not sure why this myth is so pervasive, maybe because of the wording on the wikis?

Some within the Adeptus Mechanicus Biologis deem Krieg reproductive practices heretical. They clearly are not a sufficiently powerful faction to act on that. Other members of the Mechanicus run the program on Krieg. It is also clearly widespread technology- humans are vat-grown across the Imperium: Krieg, House Goliath on Necromunda, many servitors, cherubim, it is even the default method for raising a new Chapter of Firstborn- using vat-grown humans to propagate geneseed into a Chapter-strength.

Clearly those hardliners within the Biologis are a minority.

"What do we lose if we do? Stuff has been changed before and stuff will get changed again, so there really isn’t a reason this can’t happen"

You're right - there isn't. But you asked how do people feel about it? That's how I feel.

stroller wrote:
"What do we lose if we do? Stuff has been changed before and stuff will get changed again, so there really isn’t a reason this can’t happen"

You're right - there isn't. But you asked how do people feel about it? That's how I feel.

Fair enough sir.

I'd be ok with it if Fabius Bile figured out how to do it.

Gender egalitarianism for Chaos, not the Imperium.

Hecaton wrote:
I'd be ok with it if Fabius Bile figured out how to do it.

Gender egalitarianism for Chaos, not the Imperium.

I thought I saw some stories mention about there being some? Or maybe that was sisters of Battle wearing some…

Kind of in the "don't care" camp.

I think retcons are bad for a universe - because if you start to feel the facts you are learning will change the next time a GW writer looks at the subject, you are disincentivised to learn them.

Or I am anyway. I have lost interest in other franchises where it became clear the writers did not care about what they had done in the past. There are no rules - its just writer's whim all the way down. If A is going to B but will go to C next time, who cares about learning B, or imagining yourself in that world?

There clearly have been major retcons in 40k's past - and there probably will be again. But you don't want to completely unhinge things.

But equally, its a story for toy soldiers at the end of the day. If GW went "Cawl's cracked it, next Primaris Intercessor box has a couple of female heads" I'm hardly going to get up in arms. How about where's the female Orks? I guess if they retconned it so half the Marines in the Horus Heresy were female - heck, half the Primarchs - well, I'd probably laugh.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Kcalehc wrote:
Neither for nor against, though I don't particularly see the need. There's a male only faction, a female only faction, several factions that can have both, and several factions that have neither or you can't tell any way.

If they do it, it won't really affect me either way. Assuming that a fe-marine has the same rules as a he-marine it's a purely aesthetic choice that has no bearing on the game. I'd still play against an army of them.

An issue is that (one of) the male-only factions is Space Marines, who make up approximately half the entire game.
Whereas the two female-only factions are Sisters of Battle, who aren't nearly as prevalent as Marines, and Sisters of Silence, who are literally the smaller half of the Custodes book.
.

Yeah, this is the main thing for me. Because marines are the poster boy faction that gets placed in the protagonist role for a lot of the video games, books, etc., they're a lot of folks' first impression of the game/universe. And I just worry that having a boys-only club so prominently featured might discourage some people from taking an interest in the hobby.

That's pretty much all it boils down to for me. If guard or skitarii or orks or the inquisition were the "main faction," I'd be fine with marines being a boys-only club the same way I'm fine with Sisters being a girls-only club.

Nah.

There is no convincing rhyme or reason to bring "female marines" into the setting. Instead, hammer home the inhumanity of the Astartes. They aren't male, they aren't female, they aren't even able to relate to humanity at large in many instances.

The biggest downfall of the setting is the continued insistence on calling them "Space Marines". They're too humanized.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Look, I’m not trying to start anything. I just want to know what people think about it. It wouldn’t be that hard to say that scientists or whatever fixed the process so it works on women. Don’t even need to make new models or anything, maybe just some female heads. Yet I know a lot of people seem incredibly opposed to the idea and just want to get an idea of where the community stands on this. Please be civil..

That part of the 'Lore' needs to die in a bin fire.

Other than that, Space Marines are Trans-humans. And thus should be post Gender.

Tyel wrote:
How about where's the female Orks? I guess if they retconned it so half the Marines in the Horus Heresy were female - heck, half the Primarchs - well, I'd probably laugh.

Aren’t Orks gender less anyway?

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

Tyel wrote:
How about where's the female Orks? I guess if they retconned it so half the Marines in the Horus Heresy were female - heck, half the Primarchs - well, I'd probably laugh.

Aren’t Orks gender less anyway?

In-universe, yeah. They probably don't really understand the concept of gender. The prevailing theory is that they reproduce via spores and possibly some warp shenanigans.

For it. "But the lore" ceased to be a valid argument when GW took a giant all over the existing lore by introducing primaris marines. If you can accept the retcons involved in making primaris marines female marines are no more of a change.

TBH though the real issue is that marines have a gender at all. They are not men, they are as far from a human male as a human male is from a jellyfish. Compared to a space marine the differences between a man and a woman are negligible. So let's acknowledge that space marines are warped abominations suitable only for use as expendable slaughter-beasts and they are no more human than a bolter shell. Remove their names, remove their gender, they are simply Company 3 Squad 7 Marine 2, pronouns it/its.

I'm neutral on the subject. I don't really care if female Space Marines become a thing, and don't care otherwise. I don't understand what it achieves, but if it's included, nothing really changes.

But, I think it would be really funny if the first female Space Marine was trans.

It seems like the kind of corporate fig leaf diversity pandering that every company does. It's too hard to make a real change so just slap a token gesture into a small slice of your product range so you have something to point to. It's smart but scummy.

In current lore it's a nono, what i never understood is in chaos. There anything is possible, and female chaos marines should be around.

Not all chapters of space marines are documented (nor should they ever be). There could be some out there that recruit females and have figured out how to make them marines. They may come into contact with established chapters and some will adopt the practice. Sorted.

Personally I don't mind either way; it's a big galaxy and there's room for everyone's take on it. A small 'official' (big air quotes here, it's 40K innit) throwaway mention of female space marines would be nice I reckon, for a start... and no one should bother with what it says in the Heresy rulebook, that's ancient history, probably myth

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Yeah, this is the main thing for me. Because marines are the poster boy faction that gets placed in the protagonist role for a lot of the video games, books, etc., they're a lot of folks' first impression of the game/universe. And I just worry that having a boys-only club so prominently featured might discourage some people from taking an interest in the hobby.

That's pretty much all it boils down to for me. If guard or skitarii or orks or the inquisition were the "main faction," I'd be fine with marines being a boys-only club the same way I'm fine with Sisters being a girls-only club.

We don't need to worry about that - other miniatures games have gender-integrated flagship factions and you don't see a rush of women joining those games. If you're serious, anyway, that's my reply - you might be concern trolling.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lammia wrote:
'Lore' needs to die in a bin fire.

Other than that, Space Marines are Trans-humans. And thus should be post Gender.

Your conclusion doesn't follow from your premise.

This is kind of hilarious because space Marines have more in common with Orks than they do with humans after all the implants and indoctrinations. So if you had a 'female" Space Marine how would anyone even know. So really there never would be a female Space Marine.

But put what ever heads you want on your models if it makes you feel better. It can't hurt the trash fire that 40K has become any more than anything else GW is currently doing. You have nothing to loose except maybe your money.

Weirdly, GW's policy of no model no rules probably prevents female Space Marines.

Hecaton wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Yeah, this is the main thing for me. Because marines are the poster boy faction that gets placed in the protagonist role for a lot of the video games, books, etc., they're a lot of folks' first impression of the game/universe. And I just worry that having a boys-only club so prominently featured might discourage some people from taking an interest in the hobby.

That's pretty much all it boils down to for me. If guard or skitarii or orks or the inquisition were the "main faction," I'd be fine with marines being a boys-only club the same way I'm fine with Sisters being a girls-only club.

We don't need to worry about that - other miniatures games have gender-integrated flagship factions and you don't see a rush of women joining those games. If you're serious, anyway, that's my reply - you might be concern trolling.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lammia wrote:
'Lore' needs to die in a bin fire.

Other than that, Space Marines are Trans-humans. And thus should be post Gender.

Your conclusion doesn't follow from your premise.

Wdym?

I'll just say the same thing I say every time this crops up (and before the thread gets locked):

The fluff is arbitrary. GW will change it however they need to increase sales. As such, there is no such thing as a female Space Marine right up until GW says there is.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Look, I’m not trying to start anything.

Famous last words...

since official lore is already messed up with the whole primaris and gueilliaman thing, dont really care either way anymore.

on the tabletop i have some already in my proxy/3rd partified armies

I think for me is less about marines themselves, I don’t mind all male things in fiction when done well and interesting.

But that it cannot be a flaw of the imperium of the emperor himself.
No mistakes, no comments about it possible a hindrance.
The emperor being a bit of a idiot and doing things he thinks are somehow good fits his charecter and no ability to change it in the imperium fits.
But GW probably can’t solidify it as lore that way, since the bad lore is more important than a good story to a lot of these players anyway.

Instead someone there should have done a smart thing, and let custodes take up some of that place. At least giving that Avenue, rather than yet another sisterhood that gets ignored for a long time.

Male-only Space Marines are unchangeable facet of 40k.

Partially for the machismo aspect to them - 40k has ridiculous amounts of hypermasculinity and always has. It's fun, cool, and a little silly - and despite the feelings of people who don't like it, it's not hurting anyone.

Lorewise though, it would violate a couple foundational themes of 40k.

The first is the religious theme of 40k: the Imperium is an ecclesiastical fascistic empire based heavily on the Christian faith, with it's two elite fighting units (the Marines and the SoBs) mirroring the Christian gender-divided monastic system. Remove that gender division and 40k loses that monastic allusion, and becomes more boring for it.

The second is the stagnation and regression of the setting: 40k is set in the Dark Ages of an empire, where enlightenment has devolved back into ignorance and superstition, and technological progress is impossible. It's probably the most important theme of 40k, this great and terrible irony that this grand empire has fallen back to it's most human of behaviours, worshipping the corpse of the man who tried to elevate them.
My point with this being that there is no path forward for creating feMarines, no one (outside of Chaotic aligned characters) has the mindset nor the intelligence to devise such a method. The only way to get around this is the ol' "it was here the entire time but IN SECRET" (such as Cawl and the Primaris), a very hamfisted and hack method to introduce things of such importance into the setting - and if such hokey methods are needed, it shouldn't be there at all.

That all being said, what people do with their models is of no concern to me. I'll gladly play against anyone with an army like that in casual play, and converted models are always worthy of respect. I won't see them as anything beyond a neat modelling project though.

There are 2 legions out there that no one knows anything about. It could be that they are "undercover" or they were destroyed for being unstable or who knows what else. My point is that they could be/have been female marines.

I'm in the couldn't care less camp regarding seeing female marines on the board.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Look, I’m not trying to start anything. I just want to know what people think about it. It wouldn’t be that hard to say that scientists or whatever fixed the process so it works on women. Don’t even need to make new models or anything, maybe just some female heads. Yet I know a lot of people seem incredibly opposed to the idea and just want to get an idea of where the community stands on this. Please be civil..

I'm not trying to start anything, and Please be Civil bookending your post suggests otherwise. But sure. I'll play along. The guys who made the game were even less thorough then than they are now. Had they been more thorough Marines wouldn't be gendered and American Gladiator fetishists who would to be carried around by bodybuilder women - among others - wouldn't be wondering about female marines. Had they known what was coming, and put in the research for their coming popularity they would have looked at Israel, and the USSR among others and figured out that a nihilistic and dystopian world like the Imperium, and/or the Age of Strife would be drafting both genders for combat

People who want female Marines aren’t fetishists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Look, I’m not trying to start anything. I just want to know what people think about it. It wouldn’t be that hard to say that scientists or whatever fixed the process so it works on women. Don’t even need to make new models or anything, maybe just some female heads. Yet I know a lot of people seem incredibly opposed to the idea and just want to get an idea of where the community stands on this. Please be civil..

I'm not trying to start anything, and Please be Civil bookending your post suggests otherwise. But sure. I'll play along. The guys who made the game were even less thorough then than they are now. Had they been more thorough Marines wouldn't be gendered and American Gladiator fetishists who would to be carried around by bodybuilder women - among others - wouldn't be wondering about female marines. Had they known what was coming, and put in the research for their coming popularity they would have looked at Israel, and the USSR among others and figured out that a nihilistic and dystopian world like the Imperium, and/or the Age of Strife would be drafting both genders for combat

 JNAProductions wrote:
People who want female Marines aren’t fetishists.

Certainly not all, but definitely some small minority. I've seen the images from Deviant Art.

But you are correct, that's not where most of the sentiment comes from.

For the record I am against female Space Marines, but am very FOR female Custodes.

No. I'd rather not change the lore nor the models.


What we NEED to have happen is for GW to show focus equally to all factions. Bonus points if they leaned heavily on the SOB to have them as the frontrunners for a while.


I'd also rather they make SOB fuction exactly like Marines as far as stat lines and equipment loadout. Take out those two things, eliminate the logical portion of the argument, and then watch as the same people pushing for female Marines don't stop pushing as it is not what they really want.

 JNAProductions wrote:
People who want female Marines aren’t fetishists.

All of the people are not.

- among others -

Nor is the single fetish I pointed to the only way of being one. In fact the main point I made includes some of my own ways that I am i.e. immersion. Had the designers really been on the ball, Marines already would have been mixed company though perhaps not mixing IN the company. We have entirely too many examples of this in history. Someone somewhere pointed out that if we were thinking, we'd conscript the menopausal women first, then the elderly men, then the young men, then the pre-menopausal women (or something similar) based on the ability for society to replenish itself after the war. But we're (in game/theory) past that, and we're also past the Israeli/Soviet model of conscripting everyone of a certain age. And the technology level - even as hit and miss as the Imperium is - would not have been stymied by some sort of hormonal requirement for Space Marine indoctrination. If you can build new organs, you can give people a hormone shot. That fact that Sisters don't have a Black Carapace, Omophagea, or Geneseed is a bigger symptom than all male Space Marines.