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It occurs to me that the easiest way for GW to address this is the create lore for the first female Space Marine and explain how She died a hero of the Imperium ...on the operating table as a failed experiment. GW should just put the nails in the coffin and get it over with. I doubt it would hurt sales.
The rewards of tolerance are treachery and betrayal.
Remember kids, Games Workshop needs you more than you need them.
I should probably elaborate on my earlier post, as I posted early morning before my brain cells kicked in.
Female marines don't exist in the lore, so they shouldn't be introduced without an organic and plausible reason. It shouldn't just be "it suddenly works" or "we had them hidden under a tarp out back all this time".
My main gripe with female marines is that it steps on the toes of Sisters as a faction.
Afrodactyl wrote: Female marines don't exist in the lore, so they shouldn't be introduced without an organic and plausible reason. It shouldn't just be "it suddenly works" or "we had them hidden under a tarp out back all this time".
It would actually add to the grim dark nicely if female Space Marines would be perfectly viable with the existing procedure already. It's just when the first tests were done a few thousand years ago, somebody messed up, killing the test subject in question and to cover their own failure it was claimed that women are not compatible. The Imperium could easily double their SM output, but due to some incidenct that nobody alive today is even able to remember anymore, they simply never try.
Designer's Note: Hardened Veterans can be represented by any Imperial Guard models, but we've really included them to allow players to practise their skills at making a really unique and individual unit. Because of this we won't be making models to represent many of the options allowed to a Veteran squad - it's up to you to convert the models. (Imperial Guard, 3rd Edition)
Afrodactyl wrote: Female marines don't exist in the lore, so they shouldn't be introduced without an organic and plausible reason. It shouldn't just be "it suddenly works" or "we had them hidden under a tarp out back all this time".
It would actually add to the grim dark nicely if female Space Marines would be perfectly viable with the existing procedure already. It's just when the first tests were done a few thousand years ago, somebody messed up, killing the test subject in question and to cover their own failure it was claimed that women are not compatible. The Imperium could easily double their SM output, but due to some incidenct that nobody alive today is even able to remember anymore, they simply never try.
You could also link it to the Selenar and their involvement in the legion-making process - maybe they held the secret of making female marines back for their own purposes and gave the Emperor only a sub-optimal or even sabotaged version of the refined process while they kept the optimal version hidden. It's not like they're especially trustworthy.
My main gripe with female marines is that it steps on the toes of Sisters as a faction.
I disagree. Unless their lore was 'militant church military arm' with a hard-on for penitence, faith and miracles, and aesthetics were ott fleur-de-lis spamming ornate gothic armour, they are not stepping on their toes.
Marines are a blank slate. They can be anything. Despite the 'crusading warrior monk' schtick, they dont even have to be that - my Raptors say hi, for example. Val the bloody hander slayer of arcturus from the Nordic themed Thor's Hammers chapter of Astartes has as much crossover with Sororitas as an ork.
Afrodactyl wrote: Female marines don't exist in the lore, so they shouldn't be introduced without an organic and plausible reason. It shouldn't just be "it suddenly works" or "we had them hidden under a tarp out back all this time".
It would actually add to the grim dark nicely if female Space Marines would be perfectly viable with the existing procedure already. It's just when the first tests were done a few thousand years ago, somebody messed up, killing the test subject in question and to cover their own failure it was claimed that women are not compatible. The Imperium could easily double their SM output, but due to some incidenct that nobody alive today is even able to remember anymore, they simply never try.
The Imperium doesn't want to double their Space Marine output. The whole point of Chapter organisation is that the numbers of Marines are limited.
There isn't a lack of suitable male recruits as it is; and if there was, the entry requirements could just be lowered slightly.
Limiting a single Chapter to 1000 brothers is not in conflict with simply having more Chapters in total. They still wouldn't get a proper navy for example, to keep them in check if they decide to rebel.
No idea how to proof it, but I'd say if they could do it, then the Imperium would like to have more Marines and Chapters.
Designer's Note: Hardened Veterans can be represented by any Imperial Guard models, but we've really included them to allow players to practise their skills at making a really unique and individual unit. Because of this we won't be making models to represent many of the options allowed to a Veteran squad - it's up to you to convert the models. (Imperial Guard, 3rd Edition)
Afrodactyl wrote: Female marines don't exist in the lore, so they shouldn't be introduced without an organic and plausible reason. It shouldn't just be "it suddenly works" or "we had them hidden under a tarp out back all this time".
It would actually add to the grim dark nicely if female Space Marines would be perfectly viable with the existing procedure already. It's just when the first tests were done a few thousand years ago, somebody messed up, killing the test subject in question and to cover their own failure it was claimed that women are not compatible. The Imperium could easily double their SM output, but due to some incidenct that nobody alive today is even able to remember anymore, they simply never try.
The Imperium doesn't want to double their Space Marine output. The whole point of Chapter organisation is that the numbers of Marines are limited.
There isn't a lack of suitable male recruits as it is; and if there was, the entry requirements could just be lowered slightly.
Even if they slightly lowered the standards for male recruits AND allowed females, the amount of female recruits that could pass the bar would most likely be miniscule anyway.
Space Marines are a bit like Strongmen and Bodybuilders taken to the extreme. Even among men you need to have top grade genetics for both putting on muscle and to responding to drugs. If the marines only recruited people that could compete in the top of those sports and then were to lower the standards to be able to recruit elite women you would still have thousands (if not tens or hundreds of thousands) of amateur gym bros before you are down to the first elite woman. Even if they could recruit women, why would they spend energy on that for such a specialist unit like the Adeptus Astartes? There are trillions of potential male recruits for the Space Marines that should out perform the top 0,00001% of women in the Imperium if they needed more marine bodies just due to how at the extreme ends of things physical and combat related men outperform women vastly.
If we had female space marines, would it even reach a wider audience and become more popular among women? The setting is dark and violence enough as it is and I don't think most women care if the protagonist death machine on the cover was born with or without a penis. It being a male rather than a female or unknown is probably not even in the top 20 of things that is hindering them from starting 40k. Surprisingly enough for some there is also a lot of women who don't want female representation everywhere and rather want to play as the "male powerfantasy" too from time to time. They like that the setting have all male spacemarines and having female space marines wouldn't be a positive (perhaps not always a negative either but not all women want it) for them.
Trying to reach out to a wider audience while doing core changes to the lore is usually a lose lose situation if not done extremely carefully. You fail to reach more people and lose those you already had by betraying their expectations. There is a reason their existing fanbase came to exist and that is most likely because it is different from other IPs in a way they like. One of the reasons people might not like it is also due to it being very different from other IPs in ways they don't like. It is fine to keep it like this.The thing you risk when you try to cater to more people is that you dilute your own IP and trying to chase the widest audience possible might in the end just make you bleed fans over to other IPs. When all IPs are very inclusive in-setting and none of them try to be in any way upsetting etc the difference between them risk disappearing in the hunt for pulling down the barriers to entry and in the end why would you even bother with 40k when Star Wars is bigger and have more fans you can talk to? People have different tastes and if it becomes bland enough that anyone feel they would want to try it then it is probably bland enough that people don't bother continue with it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/21 16:17:38
2023/01/21 17:09:21
Subject: Re:How Do People Feel About Female Marines?
Conversation packs on the tabletop? sure! Kitbashes are fine. Have a buzzlight year star command themed space marine army with mixed troops or a CSM army thats all Khorne Berserker chicks. You're allowed to convert your models however you want depending on the event.
Even if they slightly lowered the standards for male recruits AND allowed females, the amount of female recruits that could pass the bar would most likely be miniscule anyway.
Miniscule is the rate of initiation survivours for all non DA and BA chapters. Trying to do the entire pre training and then basic implanation process with females, would be a gigantic waste of resources. On top of that, because unmatured glands are hard to impossible to recover, any aspirant lost is a very bad thing for any chapter, as most marine chapters already operate on a very fine edge between being able to be efficient in the field and face attricion that kills a chapter. And all of this is before any pure genetical based problems of having to create a new type of gene seed that would work one females. Something the creation of required golden age tech, the emperor and team of scientists gene smiths no longer existing within the empire.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Tsagualsa 808558 11481264 wrote:
You could also link it to the Selenar and their involvement in the legion-making process - maybe they held the secret of making female marines back for their own purposes and gave the Emperor only a sub-optimal or even sabotaged version of the refined process while they kept the optimal version hidden. It's not like they're especially trustworthy.
That would be some serious changes to a 4 decade lore of the setting. Considering the DA gene seed and method of implantation is perfect. Or the fact that the BA and their succesor do not require geneticaly pure aspirants to have their recruits survive the implantation proceses. It is already a huge stretch that a "mother" of space marines was added out of no where to the lore.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Afrodactyl wrote: Female marines don't exist in the lore, so they shouldn't be introduced without an organic and plausible reason. It shouldn't just be "it suddenly works" or "we had them hidden under a tarp out back all this time".
It would actually add to the grim dark nicely if female Space Marines would be perfectly viable with the existing procedure already. It's just when the first tests were done a few thousand years ago, somebody messed up, killing the test subject in question and to cover their own failure it was claimed that women are not compatible. The Imperium could easily double their SM output, but due to some incidenct that nobody alive today is even able to remember anymore, they simply never try.
The limiting factor on number of space marines is the amount of gene seed and resources for the project, not number of candidates.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/01/21 18:21:31
Certainly not all, but definitely some small minority. I've seen the images from Deviant Art.
I've also seen the images of other factions too. Shouldn't we then just say that there's a "small minority" of *40k players* who are fetishists? Why are we focusing on the FSM art when we could talk about Eldar art?
Just Tony wrote:You say that, but the ultimate goal is boob plates on supermodels in Primaris armor.
Who's ultimate goal? Or is this a strawman?
Dudeface wrote:I'd love to see the black library guys try and include it in the fluff. You'd have to explain the biological form and gender identity of characters in power armour each time they're introduced to make it clear, define the pronouns for each character in conversation. The conversation between marines of all genders and sisters of battle of all genders would be a minefield.
Absolutely not.
"Sergeant Aphis, take your squad down the left flank," Captain Quintus exclaimed, as a stray round clipped their helmet. "Gariel says his unit is meeting unexpected resistance."
Aphis nodded curtly, although Quintus could feel her lust to engage the foe under her helm. "Aye, Captain."
Huh. Three characters mentioned, with three sets of pronouns. That didn't take much effort. I mean, surely a discussion between characters with the SAME pronouns would just just as difficult - hence why the author can use names to differentiate characters!
a_typical_hero wrote:I like my Salamanders to be obsidian black with red eyes. The setting - imho - would not benefit from having non-obsidian skin colors in that chapter.
I like my Blood Angels to turn their feral aspirants into vampire super models during initiation. The setting - imho - would not benefit from having "normal looking" dudes dorning the red armour.
I like my Sisters to be female only. The decree is an essential and memorable part of the faction identity. The setting - imho - would not benefit from having men at arms fighting for the Imperial church.
So YOUR Salamanders, Blood Angels, and Sisters can be all those things. Making exceptions and alternative options in the setting doesn't stop you doing what you want with your own models. If you want purely male Astartes, you can leave all your Astartes as male only.
Lammia wrote: Other than that, Space Marines are Trans-humans. And thus should be post Gender.
Your conclusion doesn't follow from your premise because being transhuman has nothing to do with gender.
Not strictly true. Gender is a human construct. Therefore, being transhuman would thereby also implying being beyond such constructs as gender and suchlike.
If human = gender, then transhuman =/= gender, which stands that Astartes should be post- or agender.
Dudeface wrote:I'd love to see the black library guys try and include it in the fluff. You'd have to explain the biological form and gender identity of characters in power armour each time they're introduced to make it clear, define the pronouns for each character in conversation. The conversation between marines of all genders and sisters of battle of all genders would be a minefield.
Absolutely not.
"Sergeant Aphis, take your squad down the left flank," Captain Quintus exclaimed, as a stray round clipped their helmet. "Gariel says his unit is meeting unexpected resistance."
Aphis nodded curtly, although Quintus could feel her lust to engage the foe under her helm. "Aye, Captain."
Huh. Three characters mentioned, with three sets of pronouns. That didn't take much effort. I mean, surely a discussion between characters with the SAME pronouns would just just as difficult - hence why the author can use names to differentiate characters!
OK, so looking at this as an acceptance and inclusiveness topic. What do they look like? How can we know that Quintus is of a biological female form, or is infact someone born biologically male but identifies differently.
Ironically as when this topic comes up is breaks down to "female space marines", what do we define as a "female space marine" and do you identify them as a "she"?
2023/01/21 18:31:50
Subject: Re:How Do People Feel About Female Marines?
"Sergeant Aphis, take your squad down the left flank," Captain Quintus exclaimed, as a stray round clipped their helmet. "Gariel says his unit is meeting unexpected resistance."
Aphis nodded curtly, although Quintus could feel her lust to engage the foe under her helm. "Aye, Captain."
Huh. Three characters mentioned, with three sets of pronouns. That didn't take much effort. I mean, surely a discussion between characters with the SAME pronouns would just just as difficult - hence why the author can use names to differentiate characters!
Cool not translate it in to any language where each word has a specific gender ending and check how that works. Especialy when the things don't over lap with each other. And it gets even better when you jump around languages. For example in german the knife is an it, the spoon is a he and the fork is a she. In slavic languages the knife is a he, the spoon is a she, and the fork is a he too. Makes ad hoc fast conversation EXTREMLY stressful, if someone tries to change them on top of that.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Dudeface wrote:I'd love to see the black library guys try and include it in the fluff. You'd have to explain the biological form and gender identity of characters in power armour each time they're introduced to make it clear, define the pronouns for each character in conversation. The conversation between marines of all genders and sisters of battle of all genders would be a minefield.
Absolutely not.
"Sergeant Aphis, take your squad down the left flank," Captain Quintus exclaimed, as a stray round clipped their helmet. "Gariel says his unit is meeting unexpected resistance."
Aphis nodded curtly, although Quintus could feel her lust to engage the foe under her helm. "Aye, Captain."
Huh. Three characters mentioned, with three sets of pronouns. That didn't take much effort. I mean, surely a discussion between characters with the SAME pronouns would just just as difficult - hence why the author can use names to differentiate characters!
OK, so looking at this as an acceptance and inclusiveness topic. What do they look like? How can we know that Quintus is of a biological female form, or is infact someone born biologically male but identifies differently.
Ironically as when this topic comes up is breaks down to "female space marines", what do we define as a "female space marine" and do you identify them as a "she"?
Generally, I'd imagine a female space Marine is someone who was a girl before she was turned into a Marine. And then kept the same pronouns because that's what she was used to. Same for a male Marine.
A non-binary Marine, though, could easily be an older Marine, one who's moved past the human notions of gender and is just a tool for war.
"Sergeant Aphis, take your squad down the left flank," Captain Quintus exclaimed, as a stray round clipped their helmet. "Gariel says his unit is meeting unexpected resistance."
Aphis nodded curtly, although Quintus could feel her lust to engage the foe under her helm. "Aye, Captain."
Huh. Three characters mentioned, with three sets of pronouns. That didn't take much effort. I mean, surely a discussion between characters with the SAME pronouns would just just as difficult - hence why the author can use names to differentiate characters!
Cool not translate it in to any language where each word has a specific gender ending and check how that works. Especialy when the things don't over lap with each other. And it gets even better when you jump around languages. For example in german the knife is an it, the spoon is a he and the fork is a she. In slavic languages the knife is a he, the spoon is a she, and the fork is a he too. Makes ad hoc fast conversation EXTREMLY stressful, if someone tries to change them on top of that.
What language do they speak in 40k?
And does Germany, where they speak German, have problems with a mixed-gender military?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/21 18:33:08
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
JNAProductions wrote: What language do they speak in 40k?
And does Germany, where they speak German, have problems with a mixed-gender military?
How often do you actually have a need to talk about someone in the third person where you can use neither their name nor their rank/designation in a military context? I don't think it's often enough to actually cause problems. Ranks just get the appropriate suffix for female officers, e.g. someone is a Major or Majorin, or the rank is coupled with the gender-appropiate appelation, i.e. it's a Herr Generalmajor or Frau Generalmajor.
Dudeface wrote:I'd love to see the black library guys try and include it in the fluff. You'd have to explain the biological form and gender identity of characters in power armour each time they're introduced to make it clear, define the pronouns for each character in conversation. The conversation between marines of all genders and sisters of battle of all genders would be a minefield.
Absolutely not.
"Sergeant Aphis, take your squad down the left flank," Captain Quintus exclaimed, as a stray round clipped their helmet. "Gariel says his unit is meeting unexpected resistance." Aphis nodded curtly, although Quintus could feel her lust to engage the foe under her helm. "Aye, Captain."
Huh. Three characters mentioned, with three sets of pronouns. That didn't take much effort. I mean, surely a discussion between characters with the SAME pronouns would just just as difficult - hence why the author can use names to differentiate characters!
OK, so looking at this as an acceptance and inclusiveness topic. What do they look like? How can we know that Quintus is of a biological female form, or is infact someone born biologically male but identifies differently.
It doesn't matter in that story. They're an Astartes now. They are bald, have thick dark eyebrows, and tanned skin. Who they were before being an Astartes isn't relevant to the story. Quintus is Astartes. We don't NEED to know unless it's important to the story, in the same way we don't need to know the appearance of every Space Marine who shows up in a book, which planet they were recruited on, at what age, and what their life was like before being an Astartes.
If it was relevant to the story we wanted to tell about Quintus, we could discuss how she was once the firstborn daughter of a prodigious house of knights (lower case k), and chose to become an Astartes to bring glory to her family - upon her rebirth as Quintus, they instead took a new identity, and pronouns.
If it was relevant to the story we wanted to tell about Aphis, we could discuss how she was a gutter rat on *insert planet here*, and accidentally stumbled into an Astartes training operation, and proved her capabilities unwittingly to an Astartes observer. Aphis kept her pronouns, despite her newfound appearance and identity.
If it was relevant to the story we wanted to tell about Gariel, we could discuss how she was once the daughter of a Chapter serf and an Administratum adept, and was earmarked for progress within the recruitment of the Chapter as the progeny of a Chapter serf. Succeeding in her tests, due to increased rations being smuggled to her during development, she chose to become Gariel, and used he/him pronouns upon his ascension.
But the thing is that this only needs to be told IF the story requires it - in the same way I don't need to know what hair colour *insert random Space Marine* has.
Ironically as when this topic comes up is breaks down to "female space marines", what do we define as a "female space marine" and do you identify them as a "she"?
It depends. Either all Astartes are referred to as "it/they", or they have male and female pronouns. I'd prefer they be made post-gender/non-binary, but that might be too much - so he/him and she/her would be acceptable.
I define a "female Space Marine" as someone who was biologically female upon implantation. How she looks after that is irrelevant, because there's plenty of variance within existing canon as to how Astartes can look post-implantation anyways.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/01/21 18:48:46
JNAProductions wrote: What language do they speak in 40k?
And does Germany, where they speak German, have problems with a mixed-gender military?
How often do you actually have a need to talk about someone in the third person where you can use neither their name nor their rank/designation in a military context? I don't think it's often enough to actually cause problems. Ranks just get the appropriate suffix for female officers, e.g. someone is a Major or Majorin, or the rank is coupled with the gender-appropiate appelation, i.e. it's a Herr Generalmajor or Frau Generalmajor.
There you go, Karol. Easy explanation.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2023/01/21 18:41:56
Subject: Re:How Do People Feel About Female Marines?
I mean there were female space marines in the very beginning before there was much lore so maybe there's a story there. Otherwise I think it's more about insertion than what it actually adds to the present game/lore.
"Sergeant Aphis, take your squad down the left flank," Captain Quintus exclaimed, as a stray round clipped their helmet. "Gariel says his unit is meeting unexpected resistance."
Aphis nodded curtly, although Quintus could feel her lust to engage the foe under her helm. "Aye, Captain."
Huh. Three characters mentioned, with three sets of pronouns. That didn't take much effort. I mean, surely a discussion between characters with the SAME pronouns would just just as difficult - hence why the author can use names to differentiate characters!
Cool not translate it in to any language where each word has a specific gender ending and check how that works. Especialy when the things don't over lap with each other. And it gets even better when you jump around languages. For example in german the knife is an it, the spoon is a he and the fork is a she. In slavic languages the knife is a he, the spoon is a she, and the fork is a he too. Makes ad hoc fast conversation EXTREMLY stressful, if someone tries to change them on top of that.
That's a conversation to be had about non-binary and trans- identities that extends beyond 40k and into wider linguistics.
That is not a conversation for this forum, as it WILL be off-topic.
Suffice to say, use the gender neutral pronoun that your language uses to describe how you'd tell a person they dropped their wallet.
Dudeface wrote:I'd love to see the black library guys try and include it in the fluff. You'd have to explain the biological form and gender identity of characters in power armour each time they're introduced to make it clear, define the pronouns for each character in conversation. The conversation between marines of all genders and sisters of battle of all genders would be a minefield.
Absolutely not.
"Sergeant Aphis, take your squad down the left flank," Captain Quintus exclaimed, as a stray round clipped their helmet. "Gariel says his unit is meeting unexpected resistance."
Aphis nodded curtly, although Quintus could feel her lust to engage the foe under her helm. "Aye, Captain."
Huh. Three characters mentioned, with three sets of pronouns. That didn't take much effort. I mean, surely a discussion between characters with the SAME pronouns would just just as difficult - hence why the author can use names to differentiate characters!
OK, so looking at this as an acceptance and inclusiveness topic. What do they look like? How can we know that Quintus is of a biological female form, or is infact someone born biologically male but identifies differently.
It doesn't matter in that story. They're an Astartes now. They are bald, have thick dark eyebrows, and tanned skin. Who they were before being an Astartes isn't relevant to the story. Quintus is Astartes. We don't NEED to know unless it's important to the story, in the same way we don't need to know the appearance of every Space Marine who shows up in a book, which planet they were recruited on, at what age, and what their life was like before being an Astartes.
If it was relevant to the story we wanted to tell about Quintus, we could discuss how she was once the firstborn daughter of a prodigious house of knights (lower case k), and chose to become an Astartes to bring glory to her family - upon her rebirth as Quintus, they instead took a new identity, and pronouns.
But the thing is that this only needs to be told IF the story requires it - in the same way I don't need to know what hair colour *insert random Space Marine* has.
Ironically as when this topic comes up is breaks down to "female space marines", what do we define as a "female space marine" and do you identify them as a "she"?
It depends. Either all Astartes are referred to as "it/they", or they have male and female pronouns. I'd prefer they be made post-gender/non-binary, but that might be too much - so he/him and she/her would be acceptable.
I define a "female Space Marine" as someone who was biologically female upon implantation. How she looks after that is irrelevant, because there's plenty of variance within existing canon as to how Astartes can look post-implantation anyways.
I appreciate the detailed response but you're already at them looking the same because their gender identity and appearance don't matter, so why bother changing it in the first place?
2023/01/21 18:48:25
Subject: Re:How Do People Feel About Female Marines?
Adeptekon wrote: I mean there were female space marines in the very beginning before there was much lore so maybe there's a story there. Otherwise I think it's more about insertion than what it actually adds to the present game/lore.
I think that female Space Marines don't add much to the setting, and neither does their lack detract from it substantially. All the elements of it already exist: there are professional fighting women of all stripes in the setting, there are women in power armour, both in the shape of Battle-Sisters as well as rarer examples like Inquisitors, Rogue Traders, non-Imperial petty human Empires, and so on, there are gene-modded women and much more - you could brew up a baker's dozen of count-as female Space Marines if you wanted to. All is missing is an official 'canonical' statement that there are female Space Marines, and that is the one thing people are probably not gonna get in the next decade. For some reason, the community starts to get weirdly argumentative and compelled to take a principled stand around that specific issue on the regular...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/21 18:48:41
Dudeface wrote:I'd love to see the black library guys try and include it in the fluff. You'd have to explain the biological form and gender identity of characters in power armour each time they're introduced to make it clear, define the pronouns for each character in conversation. The conversation between marines of all genders and sisters of battle of all genders would be a minefield.
Absolutely not.
"Sergeant Aphis, take your squad down the left flank," Captain Quintus exclaimed, as a stray round clipped their helmet. "Gariel says his unit is meeting unexpected resistance."
Aphis nodded curtly, although Quintus could feel her lust to engage the foe under her helm. "Aye, Captain."
Huh. Three characters mentioned, with three sets of pronouns. That didn't take much effort. I mean, surely a discussion between characters with the SAME pronouns would just just as difficult - hence why the author can use names to differentiate characters!
OK, so looking at this as an acceptance and inclusiveness topic. What do they look like? How can we know that Quintus is of a biological female form, or is infact someone born biologically male but identifies differently.
It doesn't matter in that story. They're an Astartes now. They are bald, have thick dark eyebrows, and tanned skin. Who they were before being an Astartes isn't relevant to the story. Quintus is Astartes. We don't NEED to know unless it's important to the story, in the same way we don't need to know the appearance of every Space Marine who shows up in a book, which planet they were recruited on, at what age, and what their life was like before being an Astartes.
If it was relevant to the story we wanted to tell about Quintus, we could discuss how she was once the firstborn daughter of a prodigious house of knights (lower case k), and chose to become an Astartes to bring glory to her family - upon her rebirth as Quintus, they instead took a new identity, and pronouns.
But the thing is that this only needs to be told IF the story requires it - in the same way I don't need to know what hair colour *insert random Space Marine* has.
Ironically as when this topic comes up is breaks down to "female space marines", what do we define as a "female space marine" and do you identify them as a "she"?
It depends. Either all Astartes are referred to as "it/they", or they have male and female pronouns. I'd prefer they be made post-gender/non-binary, but that might be too much - so he/him and she/her would be acceptable.
I define a "female Space Marine" as someone who was biologically female upon implantation. How she looks after that is irrelevant, because there's plenty of variance within existing canon as to how Astartes can look post-implantation anyways.
I appreciate the detailed response but you're already at them looking the same because their gender identity and appearance don't matter, so why bother changing it in the first place?
Inclusion. Not in-universe inclusion (the Imperium sucks, and sucks HARD) but out of universe.
Let a woman entering the hobby make models in her image from the flagship army, without a horde of people telling her she's doing it wrong and it's against canon and all that.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Dudeface wrote: I appreciate the detailed response but you're already at them looking the same because their gender identity and appearance don't matter, so why bother changing it in the first place?
Because they *do* matter, in that people are saying that they can't be XYZ. Their gender and appearance don't matter, in that ANYTHING* should be fine. However, with how Astartes are male coded, this isn't currently an accurate reality.
*anything being, yanno, obvious things - I'm not talking Orks.
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Tsagualsa wrote: There are professional fighting women of all stripes in the setting, there are women in power armour, both in the shape of Battle-Sisters as well as rarer examples like Inquisitors, Rogue Traders, non-Imperial petty human Empires, and so on, there are gene-modded women and much more - you could brew up a baker's dozen of count-as female Space Marines if you wanted to.
There's men in powered armour too - Custodes, Inquisitors, Rogue Traders, non-Imperial petty human empires and so on, there are gene-modded men, and so much more. So, we don't need male Space Marines, right? I hope you see the point I'm making here.
Sisters of Battle aren't the same as Space Marines, in the same way Space Marines aren't the same as Inquisitors or Custodes.
They are different factions, and "count as" just isn't going to cut the mustard.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/01/21 18:55:54
Dudeface wrote:I'd love to see the black library guys try and include it in the fluff. You'd have to explain the biological form and gender identity of characters in power armour each time they're introduced to make it clear, define the pronouns for each character in conversation. The conversation between marines of all genders and sisters of battle of all genders would be a minefield.
Absolutely not.
"Sergeant Aphis, take your squad down the left flank," Captain Quintus exclaimed, as a stray round clipped their helmet. "Gariel says his unit is meeting unexpected resistance."
Aphis nodded curtly, although Quintus could feel her lust to engage the foe under her helm. "Aye, Captain."
Huh. Three characters mentioned, with three sets of pronouns. That didn't take much effort. I mean, surely a discussion between characters with the SAME pronouns would just just as difficult - hence why the author can use names to differentiate characters!
OK, so looking at this as an acceptance and inclusiveness topic. What do they look like? How can we know that Quintus is of a biological female form, or is infact someone born biologically male but identifies differently.
It doesn't matter in that story. They're an Astartes now. They are bald, have thick dark eyebrows, and tanned skin. Who they were before being an Astartes isn't relevant to the story. Quintus is Astartes. We don't NEED to know unless it's important to the story, in the same way we don't need to know the appearance of every Space Marine who shows up in a book, which planet they were recruited on, at what age, and what their life was like before being an Astartes.
If it was relevant to the story we wanted to tell about Quintus, we could discuss how she was once the firstborn daughter of a prodigious house of knights (lower case k), and chose to become an Astartes to bring glory to her family - upon her rebirth as Quintus, they instead took a new identity, and pronouns.
But the thing is that this only needs to be told IF the story requires it - in the same way I don't need to know what hair colour *insert random Space Marine* has.
Ironically as when this topic comes up is breaks down to "female space marines", what do we define as a "female space marine" and do you identify them as a "she"?
It depends. Either all Astartes are referred to as "it/they", or they have male and female pronouns. I'd prefer they be made post-gender/non-binary, but that might be too much - so he/him and she/her would be acceptable.
I define a "female Space Marine" as someone who was biologically female upon implantation. How she looks after that is irrelevant, because there's plenty of variance within existing canon as to how Astartes can look post-implantation anyways.
I appreciate the detailed response but you're already at them looking the same because their gender identity and appearance don't matter, so why bother changing it in the first place?
Inclusion. Not in-universe inclusion (the Imperium sucks, and sucks HARD) but out of universe.
Let a woman entering the hobby make models in her image from the flagship army, without a horde of people telling her she's doing it wrong and it's against canon and all that.
I think this is the big hurdle, I'm against a fluff change as noted previously but I have 0 issues with someone making a lovingly converted/painted army to represent what they want and would never tell them they were wrong.
But this is a very delicate topic that means different things to different people as we're all showing, even the people on either side of the conversation I'd largely say its not mallicious in any way which is refreshing.
If they want to have a converted female space marine army most players won't mind. I wouldn't mind that at all. I am all for being inclusive to the hobby through being nice and welcoming. Those that are acting obnoxious about it in real life aren't really going to stop being a problem just because there is now female space marines. That is trying to cure the symptoms rather than the root cause.
People don't need full representation and inclusion for everything. Especially in a setting like 40k. I would actually be more concerned if people did relate more to stuff in the imperium. Most guys don't really relate to Space Marines either since most of what they are and do aren't actually relatable to a normal fully functional human in a western society.
JNAProductions wrote: [Inclusion. Not in-universe inclusion (the Imperium sucks, and sucks HARD) but out of universe.
Let a woman entering the hobby make models in her image from the flagship army, without a horde of people telling her she's doing it wrong and it's against canon and all that.
A woman entering the hobby can make female Space Marines* just fine.
*'in her image'? I guess our hypothetical new female player is seven feet tall, jacked beyond belief, and a psycho-indoctrinated murder machine..?
Should there be Marines in wheelchairs too? Marines who are skinny nerds? Marines who are pacifists? It would be against canon to have a Marine who looked like the vast majority of 40k players.
Lord Damocles wrote: It would be against canon to have a Marine who looked like the vast majority of 40k players.
In before the Death Guard jokes!
Anyhow, the Stormcast range has shown that GW is perfectly able to do female quasi-marines that do not degenerate into hugely overblown boob plate and chainmail bikinis. So one fear of the anti-WoMarines crowd should be alleviated by that example.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/21 19:13:09
