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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

It should be changed because if not, it will continue to be used as a cudgel against FSM. Without removing that bullet from the chamber, there will still be folks claiming "but muh lore".

If that is it then.. Yeah I am going to continue disagreeing on that argument. Much in the same way someone in historical could criticize your army for not being a proper light mechanical force in a WW2 game or someone pointing out your 14th century army isn't done in the proper color the answer isn't to change the lore or background of it.

WW2 happened. The 14th century happened. The Battle of Macragge did not.

So it really does boil down to it must be done in the specific way you want or it can't exist. Gotcha. Still disagree with it.

Yes, because cold, hard, established facts are the same thing as a purposefully vague and badly defined future that doesn’t exist.

The lore argument for FSM is that the same for female presence in any other role.

By enforcing a strict genderer ban, the Chapters are disregarding and thus wasting a significant portion potential skilled recruits.

I mean, there is probably a reason why Chapters tend to have extensive trials for potential recruits rather than simply grabbing random street kids: innate skill matters, or at least the Chapters believe it matters. And skill is not limited by gender.

So, biggest genetic disparity between recruit and marine: blood angels.

Twisted and malnourished midgets turned into giant adonis'.

The difference between the recruit and the marine is less than that between a trained woman and a their marine equivalent.

Thus, there would be no significant capability difference between a woman or man thus augmented.

 Hellebore wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
I have an issue with the argument that women can't be space marines, because 'science', as if it in any way actually supports that position.

Human genetics is not any kind of defense for this position.

Huh? Male and female human bodies are different, they can react differently to the same stimulus, *especially* with respect to hormones. It's very plausible to imagine a process that works successfully on male humans but not on female humans.

There are ways to support that argument with what we know of human biology; the fact that it frustrates you is beside the point.

You seem intent on assuming agendas, or ideologies for my arguments - if it comes from 'gender studies' then you can deny it or something?

I'm not 'frustrated' and never said that.

The only pro human genetics supporting male only marines arguments I've seen are 'because testosterone', which I've already provided counter arguments to.

Until you've got something more than Y chromosomes, SRY genes or testosterone as justifications, I've not seen any science argument that supports a default basis for female exclusion.

And as I've said, excluding women from the process for a fictional cultural reason is a separate thing that obviously can happen. And the discussion should be around that.

But too many times I've seen people who just don't want there to be female marines fall back on 'well the emperor's science said it wasn't possible' when there's no genetic support for that that I've actually seen put forward.

Twelve dudes made a dude who made 20 dudes in his image without anyone asking 'what if dudette?' is how it started. Things could be different but no one has ever wondered or questioned or self reflected at any point.

Lammia wrote:
Twelve dudes made a dude who made 20 dudes in his image without anyone asking 'what if dudette?' is how it started. Things could be different but no one has ever wondered or questioned or self reflected at any point.

Genuinely, I think that's one of the most compelling aspects about it.

Not "because science" but "because backwards".

 Insectum7 wrote:
Genuinely, I think that's one of the most compelling aspects about it

Not "because science" but "because backwards".

And that would be fine if it applied to the rest of the setting as well. If the entire Imperium was mired in misogyny that would at least be a consistent theme to hang a hat on. But it's not. It's an anachronistic leftover from a real-world time when the default for soldiers was 'male' that hasn't advanced as the rest of the setting around it did.

While I can understand a dislike for change, there comes a time when you have to stop and ask if it's really worth clinging to that one last strip of hallway when the rest of the bad '80s wallpaper in the house has been painted over.

If GW was smart they would never even acknowledge this topic.

The can of worms is too big, and isn't worth their time.

 insaniak wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Genuinely, I think that's one of the most compelling aspects about it

Not "because science" but "because backwards".

And that would be fine if it applied to the rest of the setting as well. If the entire Imperium was mired in misogyny that would at least be a consistent theme to hang a hat on. But it's not. It's an anachronistic leftover from a real-world time when the default for soldiers was 'male' that hasn't advanced as the rest of the setting around it did.

Absolutely disagree. The Imperium isn't homogenous in it's culture, and it makes a lot of sense that its institutional makeup reflects that variation.

While I can understand a dislike for change, there comes a time when you have to stop and ask if it's really worth clinging to that one last strip of hallway when the rest of the bad '80s wallpaper in the house has been painted over.

Fyi, I used to be in the pro female Space Marine camp. So I wouldn't consider myself to be "clinging to the past" on this issue. It's more about keeping with the anachronistic nature of the setting.

And frankly I find the "you must just dislike change" accusations to be pretty shallow.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
If GW was smart they would never even acknowledge this topic.

The can of worms is too big, and isn't worth their time.

Yeah, just like they didn’t acknowledge the nazis who play the game until the public smacked them across the face with it

Like the two are in any way comparable.

Grow some perspective.

Lord Damocles wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
[Inclusion. Not in-universe inclusion (the Imperium sucks, and sucks HARD) but out of universe.
Let a woman entering the hobby make models in her image from the flagship army, without a horde of people telling her she's doing it wrong and it's against canon and all that.

A woman entering the hobby can make female Space Marines* just fine.

*'in her image'? I guess our hypothetical new female player is seven feet tall, jacked beyond belief, and a psycho-indoctrinated murder machine..?

Should there be Marines in wheelchairs too? Marines who are skinny nerds? Marines who are pacifists? It would be against canon to have a Marine who looked like the vast majority of 40k players.

The most valid point. Makes me wonder if they'd be able to play Lizardmen/Seraphon without being able to represent themselves. I doubt they're 7 foot tall Komodo Dragon people or 4 and a half foot tall amphibians, so representation would be hard.

Wait, there's the Slann. Corpulant narcissists who are so grotesquely obese they can't move off their seat. Give them nose rings and purple hair and my argument may very well be nullified.

 Just Tony wrote:

Lord Damocles wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
[Inclusion. Not in-universe inclusion (the Imperium sucks, and sucks HARD) but out of universe.
Let a woman entering the hobby make models in her image from the flagship army, without a horde of people telling her she's doing it wrong and it's against canon and all that.

A woman entering the hobby can make female Space Marines* just fine.

*'in her image'? I guess our hypothetical new female player is seven feet tall, jacked beyond belief, and a psycho-indoctrinated murder machine..?

Should there be Marines in wheelchairs too? Marines who are skinny nerds? Marines who are pacifists? It would be against canon to have a Marine who looked like the vast majority of 40k players.

The most valid point. Makes me wonder if they'd be able to play Lizardmen/Seraphon without being able to represent themselves. I doubt they're 7 foot tall Komodo Dragon people or 4 and a half foot tall amphibians, so representation would be hard.

Wait, there's the Slann. Corpulant narcissists who are so grotesquely obese they can't move off their seat. Give them nose rings and purple hair and my argument may very well be nullified.

That’s a weak argument.

Lord Damocles wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
[
This take of yours is so largely devoid of any experience with any human beings. Stop it.

Oh, but it's not my take, is it? That's the beauty you see - it's literally the pro-female Marine argument: If you're not directly physically represented in [Marine] model form you can't identify with them, and are being actively excluded from the hobby.

The accuracy here is deafening. If you take the priniciple behind a concept and discuss it rather than the minutiae then you can usually destroy the argument as you'll quickly find a double standard. I'm betting several people enjoy playing Battlefleet Gothic and not a single goddamned one of you is a giant fully armed space cruiser capable of warp travel.


The key here to all advocacy for any established lore to be broken solely to gain the ability for yourself to be projected into the media is grow the feth up and stop trying to make the universe revolve around yourself personally.

 Just Tony wrote:

Lord Damocles wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
[
This take of yours is so largely devoid of any experience with any human beings. Stop it.

Oh, but it's not my take, is it? That's the beauty you see - it's literally the pro-female Marine argument: If you're not directly physically represented in [Marine] model form you can't identify with them, and are being actively excluded from the hobby.

The accuracy here is deafening. If you take the priniciple behind a concept and discuss it rather than the minutiae then you can usually destroy the argument as you'll quickly find a double standard. I'm betting several people enjoy playing Battlefleet Gothic and not a single goddamned one of you is a giant fully armed space cruiser capable of warp travel.


The key here to all advocacy for any established lore to be broken solely to gain the ability for yourself to be projected into the media is grow the feth up and stop trying to make the universe revolve around yourself personally.

Except you don’t have to break the lore, you can add onto it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Again, just say there was a breakthrough in some scientific research that found the key to overcoming the issue with the female incompatibility.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

Lord Damocles wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
[Inclusion. Not in-universe inclusion (the Imperium sucks, and sucks HARD) but out of universe.
Let a woman entering the hobby make models in her image from the flagship army, without a horde of people telling her she's doing it wrong and it's against canon and all that.

A woman entering the hobby can make female Space Marines* just fine.

*'in her image'? I guess our hypothetical new female player is seven feet tall, jacked beyond belief, and a psycho-indoctrinated murder machine..?

Should there be Marines in wheelchairs too? Marines who are skinny nerds? Marines who are pacifists? It would be against canon to have a Marine who looked like the vast majority of 40k players.

The most valid point. Makes me wonder if they'd be able to play Lizardmen/Seraphon without being able to represent themselves. I doubt they're 7 foot tall Komodo Dragon people or 4 and a half foot tall amphibians, so representation would be hard.

Wait, there's the Slann. Corpulant narcissists who are so grotesquely obese they can't move off their seat. Give them nose rings and purple hair and my argument may very well be nullified.

That’s a weak argument.

From page 8

What we are talking about here is making it a bit easier for a kid to be able to look at the hobby and think “I want to do that” and not be scared off. That kid may or may not be a girl, but them seeing a huge poster of a woman in power armour looking bad ass as feth might interest them, and it might stop donkey caves in the shop saying that this hobby isn’t for them.

If a little girl is happy to have a female space marine army. Or helk a friend of mine starting 40k because she gets to play a heroic band of space marines based on Mayan Culture with a famous Female Space Marine character then I think thats cool.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

Lord Damocles wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
[Inclusion. Not in-universe inclusion (the Imperium sucks, and sucks HARD) but out of universe.
Let a woman entering the hobby make models in her image from the flagship army, without a horde of people telling her she's doing it wrong and it's against canon and all that.

A woman entering the hobby can make female Space Marines* just fine.

*'in her image'? I guess our hypothetical new female player is seven feet tall, jacked beyond belief, and a psycho-indoctrinated murder machine..?

Should there be Marines in wheelchairs too? Marines who are skinny nerds? Marines who are pacifists? It would be against canon to have a Marine who looked like the vast majority of 40k players.
When lizard people walk the earth we can discuss it then.

The most valid point. Makes me wonder if they'd be able to play Lizardmen/Seraphon without being able to represent themselves. I doubt they're 7 foot tall Komodo Dragon people or 4 and a half foot tall amphibians, so representation would be hard.

Wait, there's the Slann. Corpulant narcissists who are so grotesquely obese they can't move off their seat. Give them nose rings and purple hair and my argument may very well be nullified.

That’s a weak argument.

From page 8

What we are talking about here is making it a bit easier for a kid to be able to look at the hobby and think “I want to do that” and not be scared off. That kid may or may not be a girl, but them seeing a huge poster of a woman in power armour looking bad ass as feth might interest them, and it might stop donkey caves in the shop saying that this hobby isn’t for them.

If a little girl is happy to have a female space marine army. Or helk a friend of mine starting 40k because she gets to play a heroic band of space marines based on Mayan Culture with a famous Female Space Marine character then I think thats cool.

Except lizard people arent real

Deadnight wrote:

 Afrodactyl wrote:


My main gripe with female marines is that it steps on the toes of Sisters as a faction.

I disagree. Unless their lore was 'militant church military arm' with a hard-on for penitence, faith and miracles, and aesthetics were ott fleur-de-lis spamming ornate gothic armour, they are not stepping on their toes.

Even though the first question will be Why Sisters are still S3/T3 1W Humans instead of S4 T4 2W Superhumans. The second question will be when are they getting Terminators. The third question will be Primaris Sisters.

Marines are a blank slate. They can be anything. Despite the 'crusading warrior monk' schtick, they dont even have to be that - my Raptors say hi, for example. Val the bloody hander slayer of arcturus from the Nordic themed Thor's Hammers chapter of Astartes has as much crossover with Sororitas as an ork.

You're confusing and conflating either their pre-induction lives or someone's fanfic non-canon chapter fluff. Every chapter I've ever read about still has some sort of warrior monk religious aspect inside the chapter even if it may be as different in details as the Ultramarines and the Mortifactors. You're still going to find greco-roman dagger wrestling matches between two Marines in loincloths.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

Lord Damocles wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
[Inclusion. Not in-universe inclusion (the Imperium sucks, and sucks HARD) but out of universe.
Let a woman entering the hobby make models in her image from the flagship army, without a horde of people telling her she's doing it wrong and it's against canon and all that.

A woman entering the hobby can make female Space Marines* just fine.

*'in her image'? I guess our hypothetical new female player is seven feet tall, jacked beyond belief, and a psycho-indoctrinated murder machine..?

Should there be Marines in wheelchairs too? Marines who are skinny nerds? Marines who are pacifists? It would be against canon to have a Marine who looked like the vast majority of 40k players.
When lizard people walk the earth we can discuss it then.

The most valid point. Makes me wonder if they'd be able to play Lizardmen/Seraphon without being able to represent themselves. I doubt they're 7 foot tall Komodo Dragon people or 4 and a half foot tall amphibians, so representation would be hard.

Wait, there's the Slann. Corpulant narcissists who are so grotesquely obese they can't move off their seat. Give them nose rings and purple hair and my argument may very well be nullified.

That’s a weak argument.

From page 8

What we are talking about here is making it a bit easier for a kid to be able to look at the hobby and think “I want to do that” and not be scared off. That kid may or may not be a girl, but them seeing a huge poster of a woman in power armour looking bad ass as feth might interest them, and it might stop donkey caves in the shop saying that this hobby isn’t for them.

If a little girl is happy to have a female space marine army. Or helk a friend of mine starting 40k because she gets to play a heroic band of space marines based on Mayan Culture with a famous Female Space Marine character then I think thats cool.

Except lizard people arent real

Would we be having this conversation then if Lizardmen were the flagship race instead? Given we have many armies in 40k that currently have female and male representation along the side..

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

Except lizard people arent real

Neither are Space Marines?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

Lord Damocles wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
[Inclusion. Not in-universe inclusion (the Imperium sucks, and sucks HARD) but out of universe.
Let a woman entering the hobby make models in her image from the flagship army, without a horde of people telling her she's doing it wrong and it's against canon and all that.

A woman entering the hobby can make female Space Marines* just fine.

*'in her image'? I guess our hypothetical new female player is seven feet tall, jacked beyond belief, and a psycho-indoctrinated murder machine..?

Should there be Marines in wheelchairs too? Marines who are skinny nerds? Marines who are pacifists? It would be against canon to have a Marine who looked like the vast majority of 40k players.
When lizard people walk the earth we can discuss it then.

The most valid point. Makes me wonder if they'd be able to play Lizardmen/Seraphon without being able to represent themselves. I doubt they're 7 foot tall Komodo Dragon people or 4 and a half foot tall amphibians, so representation would be hard.

Wait, there's the Slann. Corpulant narcissists who are so grotesquely obese they can't move off their seat. Give them nose rings and purple hair and my argument may very well be nullified.

That’s a weak argument.

From page 8

What we are talking about here is making it a bit easier for a kid to be able to look at the hobby and think “I want to do that” and not be scared off. That kid may or may not be a girl, but them seeing a huge poster of a woman in power armour looking bad ass as feth might interest them, and it might stop donkey caves in the shop saying that this hobby isn’t for them.

If a little girl is happy to have a female space marine army. Or helk a friend of mine starting 40k because she gets to play a heroic band of space marines based on Mayan Culture with a famous Female Space Marine character then I think thats cool.

Except lizard people arent real

Would we be having this conversation then if Lizardmen were the flagship race instead? Given we have many armies in 40k that currently have female and male representation along the side..

I have no issues with that. If you figure out how to best show gender on them go for it

Like a female lizard would look any different wtih a race of autonomous robot lizards ?

 Asherian Command wrote:
Like a female lizard would look any different wtih a race of autonomous robot lizards ?

Being a big fan of lizards, robots, robot lizards, and women, I would not mind it if all of the above were indeed distinguishable.

BUT what I put on my shelf-of-shame is my own endeavor and nobody needs to judge me for it.

Or at least don't judge me out loud.

Yes I want robot lizard women with prominent assets.

Lammia wrote:
Hmmm, ok lets try this... The idea of genetic inclusion/exculusion appeals to people who unironically love the Imperium of Man.

And it costs us nothing to say it's wrong.

The "idea" of genetic inclusion/exclusion isn't appealing to people in real life. That's one of the differences between the FSM agitators and the people who like the status quo - the FSM agitators have a tough time differentiating between "what is" and "what should be."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Just Tony wrote:

The accuracy here is deafening. If you take the priniciple behind a concept and discuss it rather than the minutiae then you can usually destroy the argument as you'll quickly find a double standard. I'm betting several people enjoy playing Battlefleet Gothic and not a single goddamned one of you is a giant fully armed space cruiser capable of warp travel.


The key here to all advocacy for any established lore to be broken solely to gain the ability for yourself to be projected into the media is grow the feth up and stop trying to make the universe revolve around yourself personally.

That's not even the argument, since it's almost entirely men wanting to have female space marines in their armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hellebore wrote:


You seem intent on assuming agendas, or ideologies for my arguments - if it comes from 'gender studies' then you can deny it or something?

Generally, yeah, because people from that discipline often make a butchery of biology as a science.

I'm very left wing but I put my stock in actual science.

 Hellebore wrote:
I'm not 'frustrated' and never said that.

The fact that you're frustrated is apparent from your posts.

 Hellebore wrote:
The only pro human genetics supporting male only marines arguments I've seen are 'because testosterone', which I've already provided counter arguments to.

That's a strawman, and no, you've utterly failed at that. Male and female human bodies react *differently* to testosterone - if testosterone is necessary for the Astartes creation process, it would necessarily have different results on male and female humans.

 Hellebore wrote:
Until you've got something more than Y chromosomes, SRY genes or testosterone as justifications, I've not seen any science argument that supports a default basis for female exclusion.

The Y chromosome is enough; if the process works by upregulating genes on the Y chromosome, it wouldn't work on humans without Y chromosomes. The fact that you can't conceive of that idea means you're very much in the dark about how the human genome and body actually work.

 Hellebore wrote:
And as I've said, excluding women from the process for a fictional cultural reason is a separate thing that obviously can happen. And the discussion should be around that.

But too many times I've seen people who just don't want there to be female marines fall back on 'well the emperor's science said it wasn't possible' when there's no genetic support for that that I've actually seen put forward.

I've put it forward before in threads on this topic. But, predictably, the pro-FSM crowd ignores that and starts back with spreading their BS in the next thread when it comes up, because truth is not a value that crowd holds dear.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

It should be changed because if not, it will continue to be used as a cudgel against FSM. Without removing that bullet from the chamber, there will still be folks claiming "but muh lore".

If that is it then.. Yeah I am going to continue disagreeing on that argument. Much in the same way someone in historical could criticize your army for not being a proper light mechanical force in a WW2 game or someone pointing out your 14th century army isn't done in the proper color the answer isn't to change the lore or background of it.

WW2 happened. The 14th century happened. The Battle of Macragge did not.

Hecaton wrote:"Deeply problematic" is code for "I find it ideologically reprehensible."

Not everyone shares your ideology. You're going to have to make the argument for your ideology first.

"Give your argument why people shouldn't be transphobic."

Alternatively, no. I don't think anyone on this site needs to justify that, considering it's a baseline level of respect that's required for that.

In what way was ANYTHING said transphobic? This isn't the US Politics thread, you don't get to throw out false accusations to win the argument.

What you DID do is demonstrate your ego is so colossal that you see yourself in everything; the lore, the force, and apparently nonexistently in the counterpoints/arguments.

drbored wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Like a female lizard would look any different wtih a race of autonomous robot lizards ?

Being a big fan of lizards, robots, robot lizards, and women, I would not mind it if all of the above were indeed distinguishable.

BUT what I put on my shelf-of-shame is my own endeavor and nobody needs to judge me for it.

Or at least don't judge me out loud.

Yes I want robot lizard women with prominent assets.

There is a place for that, but you will be judged. Time and a place I think is where it often falls for these things.
This is me being silly a bit, some of the things I seen gaming I truly wonder about the thoughts going into it, Anime card sleeves of very questionable content are more common than I expected in public places.

For me, I want to see the representation as a setting thing itself. I don’t need marines to be that place, but often in these sort of things it mostly is just. we don’t exist in the setting or the gameplay, and often authors will insert in a bunch of stuff to prevent it, leading to the worst lore in 40k being repeated like it’s good.
When there are way better ways to use the male only marines, but that itself goes against what marines have really become to 40k as a power fantasy all elite army that’s cooler and able to do anything.

GW I think has been trying a bit, maybe in 10 years we will have a better position to discuss this as well.
But it’s not just a marine thing, but a nerd thing in general filtering in. Being told I am not represented in nerd culture is just how I grow up really.
Every dragon is a male used to be a eye roll thing in fantasy we would joke about, carful writing and thoughtful writing is how you do these things.

Or you end up with a setting that embody the quote “All lore, No story.”

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

Lord Damocles wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
[Inclusion. Not in-universe inclusion (the Imperium sucks, and sucks HARD) but out of universe.
Let a woman entering the hobby make models in her image from the flagship army, without a horde of people telling her she's doing it wrong and it's against canon and all that.

A woman entering the hobby can make female Space Marines* just fine.

*'in her image'? I guess our hypothetical new female player is seven feet tall, jacked beyond belief, and a psycho-indoctrinated murder machine..?

Should there be Marines in wheelchairs too? Marines who are skinny nerds? Marines who are pacifists? It would be against canon to have a Marine who looked like the vast majority of 40k players.
When lizard people walk the earth we can discuss it then.

The most valid point. Makes me wonder if they'd be able to play Lizardmen/Seraphon without being able to represent themselves. I doubt they're 7 foot tall Komodo Dragon people or 4 and a half foot tall amphibians, so representation would be hard.

Wait, there's the Slann. Corpulant narcissists who are so grotesquely obese they can't move off their seat. Give them nose rings and purple hair and my argument may very well be nullified.

That’s a weak argument.

From page 8

What we are talking about here is making it a bit easier for a kid to be able to look at the hobby and think “I want to do that” and not be scared off. That kid may or may not be a girl, but them seeing a huge poster of a woman in power armour looking bad ass as feth might interest them, and it might stop donkey caves in the shop saying that this hobby isn’t for them.

If a little girl is happy to have a female space marine army. Or helk a friend of mine starting 40k because she gets to play a heroic band of space marines based on Mayan Culture with a famous Female Space Marine character then I think thats cool.

Except lizard people arent real

Neither are Space Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

Lord Damocles wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
[
This take of yours is so largely devoid of any experience with any human beings. Stop it.

Oh, but it's not my take, is it? That's the beauty you see - it's literally the pro-female Marine argument: If you're not directly physically represented in [Marine] model form you can't identify with them, and are being actively excluded from the hobby.

The accuracy here is deafening. If you take the priniciple behind a concept and discuss it rather than the minutiae then you can usually destroy the argument as you'll quickly find a double standard. I'm betting several people enjoy playing Battlefleet Gothic and not a single goddamned one of you is a giant fully armed space cruiser capable of warp travel.


The key here to all advocacy for any established lore to be broken solely to gain the ability for yourself to be projected into the media is grow the feth up and stop trying to make the universe revolve around yourself personally.

Except you don’t have to break the lore, you can add onto it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Again, just say there was a breakthrough in some scientific research that found the key to overcoming the issue with the female incompatibility.

OR

You can accept the lore is what it is, realize that you don't get your participation trophy in this event, and you move on with your life.

Nah, would rather not have femarines the same as I don't particularly want male sisters of battle.

I don't really care if lore reasons can be invented to either disallow or allow femarines, I'd simply prefer the astartes to remain big burly dudes rather than big burly women.

How can people get so worked up about this time after time after time?

Hecaton wrote:

Lammia wrote:
Hmmm, ok lets try this... The idea of genetic inclusion/exculusion appeals to people who unironically love the Imperium of Man.

And it costs us nothing to say it's wrong.

The "idea" of genetic inclusion/exclusion isn't appealing to people in real life. That's one of the differences between the FSM agitators and the people who like the status quo - the FSM agitators have a tough time differentiating between "what is" and "what should be."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Just Tony wrote:

The accuracy here is deafening. If you take the priniciple behind a concept and discuss it rather than the minutiae then you can usually destroy the argument as you'll quickly find a double standard. I'm betting several people enjoy playing Battlefleet Gothic and not a single goddamned one of you is a giant fully armed space cruiser capable of warp travel.


The key here to all advocacy for any established lore to be broken solely to gain the ability for yourself to be projected into the media is grow the feth up and stop trying to make the universe revolve around yourself personally.

That's not even the argument, since it's almost entirely men wanting to have female space marines in their armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hellebore wrote:


You seem intent on assuming agendas, or ideologies for my arguments - if it comes from 'gender studies' then you can deny it or something?

Generally, yeah, because people from that discipline often make a butchery of biology as a science.

I'm very left wing but I put my stock in actual science.

 Hellebore wrote:
I'm not 'frustrated' and never said that.

The fact that you're frustrated is apparent from your posts.

 Hellebore wrote:
The only pro human genetics supporting male only marines arguments I've seen are 'because testosterone', which I've already provided counter arguments to.

That's a strawman, and no, you've utterly failed at that. Male and female human bodies react *differently* to testosterone - if testosterone is necessary for the Astartes creation process, it would necessarily have different results on male and female humans.

 Hellebore wrote:
Until you've got something more than Y chromosomes, SRY genes or testosterone as justifications, I've not seen any science argument that supports a default basis for female exclusion.

The Y chromosome is enough; if the process works by upregulating genes on the Y chromosome, it wouldn't work on humans without Y chromosomes. The fact that you can't conceive of that idea means you're very much in the dark about how the human genome and body actually work.

 Hellebore wrote:
And as I've said, excluding women from the process for a fictional cultural reason is a separate thing that obviously can happen. And the discussion should be around that.

But too many times I've seen people who just don't want there to be female marines fall back on 'well the emperor's science said it wasn't possible' when there's no genetic support for that that I've actually seen put forward.

I've put it forward before in threads on this topic. But, predictably, the pro-FSM crowd ignores that and starts back with spreading their BS in the next thread when it comes up, because truth is not a value that crowd holds dear.

It kind of was the argument as the push for FSM was so more female gamers will show up, but it does indeed wind up as male gamers making the FSM armies. And you know what? Nothing is stopping them. I don't need to have Marvel make the Ultraverse active canon again for me to paint up a Harcase mini for Crisis Protocol and run him with Luke Cage's stats.



Oh, and it's "strawperson"...

Dai wrote:
How can people get so worked up about this time after time after time?

Welcome to the Warhammer Community, where the lore as it is written, is seen as immutable and set in stone, where nothing can ever change.

...despite things changing all the time and people either leaving the hobby, learning to deal with it, or they do as most people do, and not really care all that much.

But hey, these thinly disguised political arguments are great at getting people heated.