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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Definitely some interesting concepts in the stuff above.

There's aspects about the army that I care about and there's aspects that I don't care about. Lost and the Damned? Make them their own Codex. Get the cultists and traitor guard into their own thing that you can 1/4th ally with Chaos marines, or vice versus. And able to take some corrupt Astra Militarum vehicles or something to boot.

What I care about is looking at my collection and being able to say "Yes, this is cohesive", not at all in color, warband, or even a singular mark of god, but being able to see the bright pink of the Noise Marines, the sickly green of the Plague Marines, throw in some Red Corsairs Bikers, a couple of Rhinos to transport some stuff, and a Defiler and go "Yes, all of this belongs to the same army", because they are all Chaos Marines.

Right now, I look at the force and I see Raptors that were ALMOST the new style, but have been scale-crept. I see Bikers from 3rd edition. I see boxy rhinos with no detail except some spikes from 3rd or 4th edition. Then I see the hyper-detailed Legionaries, the lumpy Defiler, the out-of-place Heldrake and I wonder "What in the world went wrong?"

I agree that Marks need to be something that any unit can take, or otherwise just strip them from the codex entirely. We absolutely need 'make your own warband' rules, I'd even take them at the expense of the Legion rules at this point, as half the legions rules are bunk anyway.

We need to be able to customize our Lords and leaders, because having a cunning, charismatic Chaos Lord of Slaanesh should not have the exact same profile as a brutal, violent Chaos Lord of Khorne.

It's just a mess and I hope 10th ed brings some relief.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/26 20:16:45


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

drbored wrote:

Right now, I look at the force and I see Raptors that were ALMOST the new style, but have been scale-crept. I see Bikers from 3rd edition. I see boxy rhinos with no detail except some spikes from 3rd or 4th edition. Then I see the hyper-detailed Legionaries, the lumpy Defiler, the out-of-place Heldrake and I wonder "What in the world went wrong?"


Is this a force you own? Or are you just window shopping on GWs site & complaining about models you don't like?

If it's the former, you've only yourself to blame for buying/keeping stuff you don't like the looks of together.
If it's the latter? Nothings gone wrong. Replacing those models/molds you dislike is apparently just not on GWs priority to-do-list.
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





Gw devoted quite a lot of ressources to CSM since 8th edition, and they also finished the daemons' transition to plastic (took them from 5th to 9th edition, epidemius is still waiting).
They're facing several problems, though.
CSM is at least 5 factions (4gods + undivided) and GW always has to decide how much they dedicate to these factions. We got god specific legions now, but all kits that do multi duty will break a coherent look. Yes, there are god specific heads in the spawn and Daemon Prince kit, but next to actual Death Guard kits they'll look like the cheap kitbashes they are. And with Possessed GW even went with their usual "generic Chaos" look that fits nowhere properly but Black Legion and Word Bearers.
Throw in some halfassed kits that were just funny ideas from designers (dinobots) and kits that were intended for other uses than the actual CSM 40K army (cultists, traitor guard) and you have the hodgepodge that we see.
And I didn't even mention renegades and creations of Bile which, aside from their chars, have no real fitting GW minis whatsoever but GW really likes to feature them in campaign books again and again.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





ccs wrote:
drbored wrote:

Right now, I look at the force and I see Raptors that were ALMOST the new style, but have been scale-crept. I see Bikers from 3rd edition. I see boxy rhinos with no detail except some spikes from 3rd or 4th edition. Then I see the hyper-detailed Legionaries, the lumpy Defiler, the out-of-place Heldrake and I wonder "What in the world went wrong?"


Is this a force you own? Or are you just window shopping on GWs site & complaining about models you don't like?

If it's the former, you've only yourself to blame for buying/keeping stuff you don't like the looks of together.
If it's the latter? Nothings gone wrong. Replacing those models/molds you dislike is apparently just not on GWs priority to-do-list.


I've owned a number of the models, and I've gotten rid of models over the years that I don't care to keep.

I've been passionate about the Chaos Marines for 15 years, and to see them turn into this hodge-podge force where I can't even expand my army into the things that I want because the stuff I want hasn't been updated is a bit frustrating.

I'm picky, I admit it, but is it so out of the realm of acceptability to assume GW might want to update models that are 15-20 years old? Or that they might want to keep their forces cohesive, like they do for literally every other faction in 40k and most of them for AoS?
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought




San Jose, CA

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
They gotta sell those Haarkan models somehow!

Haarkan is Black Legion. Do they have no interest in the money of the players of other Legions?


I play EC, Harken made an excellent basis for my jump Lord that i used last night, so I have no idea what you're talking about.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Put. It. All. In. All of it. I want a glorious, mind boggling embarrassment of options. I want it to be closer to that magnificent Imperial Armour volume. The one where the only way to remain sane was to consider “what sort of Chaos force is in my head”, and self-restrict to have it reflected in your army.

If that leads to super math hammered no-fun lists turning up? Who cares. The person running that was likely never gonna be fun to play against in the first place, some folk are just wired that way.


You're describing 2nd ed. Chaos perfectly. Three lists in the same book, crazy options for various themes. Want to do a straight legionary force? You can. Want to do renegades? No problem.

How about an ad-hoc raiding party? Maybe add some traitor guard and crazed cultists for flavor!

It's all there.

Want a better way to do fantasy/historical miniatures battles?  Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory.

Do you like Star Wars but find the prequels and sequels disappointing?  Man of Destiny is the book series for you.

My 2nd edition Warhammer 40k resource page. Check out my other stuff at https://www.ahlloyd.com 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Put. It. All. In. All of it. I want a glorious, mind boggling embarrassment of options. I want it to be closer to that magnificent Imperial Armour volume. The one where the only way to remain sane was to consider “what sort of Chaos force is in my head”, and self-restrict to have it reflected in your army.

If that leads to super math hammered no-fun lists turning up? Who cares. The person running that was likely never gonna be fun to play against in the first place, some folk are just wired that way.


You're describing 2nd ed. Chaos perfectly. Three lists in the same book, crazy options for various themes. Want to do a straight legionary force? You can. Want to do renegades? No problem.

How about an ad-hoc raiding party? Maybe add some traitor guard and crazed cultists for flavor!

It's all there.


Kind of. The craziness of Daemon World forces, like the GSC in the Tyranid Codex was sort of semi-official-ish-emphasis-on-the-semi.

   
Made in us
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






Racerguy180 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
They gotta sell those Haarkan models somehow!

Haarkan is Black Legion. Do they have no interest in the money of the players of other Legions?


I play EC, Harken made an excellent basis for my jump Lord that i used last night, so I have no idea what you're talking about.


what jump lord?
(yeah i know legends is a thing but sadly its more of an "opt-in" concept)
   
Made in gb
Witch Hunter in the Shadows





Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
You're describing 2nd ed. Chaos perfectly. Three lists in the same book, crazy options for various themes. Want to do a straight legionary force? You can. Want to do renegades? No problem.
It has been a while but IIRC Hurons rule in 2e was 'you may take anything from the space marine codex, in any amount, for no extra cost'.
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought




San Jose, CA

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
They gotta sell those Haarkan models somehow!

Haarkan is Black Legion. Do they have no interest in the money of the players of other Legions?


I play EC, Harken made an excellent basis for my jump Lord that i used last night, so I have no idea what you're talking about.


what jump lord?
(yeah i know legends is a thing but sadly its more of an "opt-in" concept)

Nope, you should need to opt out....feth Gw
   
Made in pl
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy




I mean GW could easily drop a massive super Chaos book, call it whatever they want, Forces of Chaos, keep it separate from the Chaos Deamons codex and throw a bunch of these ideas in. No reason why they couldn't. Really expand the options for building up CSM or Cultists themselves. Sure you will lose some sales to 3rd party guys who just have the ability to cater to specific looks but I figure such a move would increase sales if we had more customization available for our armies. I still cannot for the life of me figure out why Plague marines and CSM Terminators have one of the most regimented loadouts in the game, while the nominal forces of order (IOM aligned armies) have better loadout customization.

I also believe that adding upgrade sprues for certain vehicles (looking at you Leman Russ tanks) like they did for Genestealer cults would be a good idea. Those tanks should probably be more widespread than the Predator tank if you think about it.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






For me, as someone almost entirely background driven, it has to be an anarchic embarrassment of options.

The sort of sheer variety that when you’re told your next opponent is a Chaos force, you have no firm idea what that might look like across the board from you.

Knight here, pack of Daemons there. Ostensibly held together by the dubious authority of a relatively low ranking Chaos Champion too naive to spot they and their followers are being used to bulk up the numbers whilst other, more individually powerful and favoured, but less numerous hosts gain the glory whilst you and yours are busy catching bullets.

Chaos shouldn’t, to me, be as hidebound as other forces in terms of selection, because it’s Chaos.

Sure if you want Naughty Guard or Marines But With A Suspicious Fondness For Spikes you should have that. No dispute or argument against that from me. Because such forces exist. Even ostensibly Loyalist forces that have just crossed the line reflect that, as it takes The Imperium a while to properly notice things aren’t alright.

In fact, I think this is part of the genuine problem with Chaos. It’s….vast, but also a core indelible part of the background. CSM don’t use fancier weapons because the less fancy weapons are just easier to maintain. Yet that’s not necessarily universal. Sure a bunch, likely a majority will have that level of sense and indeed sanity - but by no means all.

Chaos. It’s big folks, and my brain am not brain well enough right now to properly explain the nonsense rattling around inside it.

   
Made in gb
Witch Hunter in the Shadows





panzerfront14 wrote:
I still cannot for the life of me figure out why Plague marines and CSM Terminators have one of the most regimented loadouts in the game, while the nominal forces of order (IOM aligned armies) have better loadout customization.
GW can be oddly and randomly strict about loadouts.

The sororitas canoness is perhaps the best example that springs to mind - for example 'boltgun' wasn't an option, 'boltgun and powersword and rod of office' was, but also invalidated every single other wargear option. IIRC they errated it at least twice randomly blocking and unblocking different combinations of the half dozen weapons that came with the model based on which arm they fitted to.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





A.T. wrote:
It has been a while but IIRC Hurons rule in 2e was 'you may take anything from the space marine codex, in any amount, for no extra cost'.


You are correct. He's leading renegades rather than Traitor Legions. However, there is a hidden point increase in there as Imperial Marines get the Shaken rule and Chaos do not. Basic Chaos Marines were cheaper than Imperial ones for that reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Kind of. The craziness of Daemon World forces, like the GSC in the Tyranid Codex was sort of semi-official-ish-emphasis-on-the-semi.


If you expect GW to come up with an Official version of the list, you'll be waiting a very long time.

The 2nd lists were great because they empowered players to come up with interesting, fluff-driven forces. They could be unbalanced, but so what? The game's supposed to be a friendly match, not some chess tournament between grand masters.

That was also when you could take Fantasy Chaos "cultists" as allies. Better times, they were.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/01/27 21:26:31


Want a better way to do fantasy/historical miniatures battles?  Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory.

Do you like Star Wars but find the prequels and sequels disappointing?  Man of Destiny is the book series for you.

My 2nd edition Warhammer 40k resource page. Check out my other stuff at https://www.ahlloyd.com 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





panzerfront14 wrote:
I mean GW could easily drop a massive super Chaos book, call it whatever they want, Forces of Chaos, keep it separate from the Chaos Deamons codex and throw a bunch of these ideas in. No reason why they couldn't. Really expand the options for building up CSM or Cultists themselves. Sure you will lose some sales to 3rd party guys who just have the ability to cater to specific looks but I figure such a move would increase sales if we had more customization available for our armies. I still cannot for the life of me figure out why Plague marines and CSM Terminators have one of the most regimented loadouts in the game, while the nominal forces of order (IOM aligned armies) have better loadout customization.

I also believe that adding upgrade sprues for certain vehicles (looking at you Leman Russ tanks) like they did for Genestealer cults would be a good idea. Those tanks should probably be more widespread than the Predator tank if you think about it.


The main reason they wouldn't is because they'll make more money selling you two (or even up to 5) 55 dollar books rather than selling you one 80 dollar super-book.
   
Made in us
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols





washington state USA

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Ah yes, a giant list of the things that made me take a look at HH, realize that it's just a better game and does the 8th Legion's rules infinitely better than 9th edition 40k, and therefore run straight into its welcoming arms.


I just pick up a copy of the 3.5 chaos codex and have warm fuzzy feelings. it still has never been bested in all the editions of 40K since.

Oldhammer or no hammer for our group. 9th is just terrible. pretty much nobody in our are plays it anymore. even the guys who were once big into it. now they play FOW, battletech, infinity and the like or join us for some oldhammer. i know GW sales are still good for the new minis, but outside of the tourney players i don't see it getting any play time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/28 11:04:51






GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in gb
Witch Hunter in the Shadows





Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
It has been a while but IIRC Hurons rule in 2e was 'you may take anything from the space marine codex, in any amount, for no extra cost'.
You are correct. He's leading renegades rather than Traitor Legions. However, there is a hidden point increase in there as Imperial Marines get the Shaken rule and Chaos do not. Basic Chaos Marines were cheaper than Imperial ones for that reason.
Chaos marines were cheaper than sisters of battle back then. But i'm fairly sure no-one took Huron to unlock tactical marines, just the vehicles, artillery, and wargear.

To be honest though it's the warband nature of chaos that I miss. The old epic game always had a very visually distinct style where different patches of colour on the table would signify different threats - at a glance you could see the spread of the four gods and each signified a different threat, usually quite heavily skewed into specialities. Almost eldar-like in that regard.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





A.T. wrote:
To be honest though it's the warband nature of chaos that I miss. The old epic game always had a very visually distinct style where different patches of colour on the table would signify different threats - at a glance you could see the spread of the four gods and each signified a different threat, usually quite heavily skewed into specialities. Almost eldar-like in that regard.


Don't forget demon animosity. If you put Khorne and Slaanesh demons in the same army, they may just forget about the enemy and decide to fight each other!

I've only just gotten around to making some Noise Marines because my army was most Khorne-themed. Getting into Plague Marines created an opening for Slaanesh forces to enter the warband.

The older rules very much had stronger character to them, being less about marketing and more about creating a setting (which was still quite new at that point).

Want a better way to do fantasy/historical miniatures battles?  Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory.

Do you like Star Wars but find the prequels and sequels disappointing?  Man of Destiny is the book series for you.

My 2nd edition Warhammer 40k resource page. Check out my other stuff at https://www.ahlloyd.com 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




I've come around very firmly to "accursed weapons" being a good change, and I hope we see more similar approaches with "power weapons", "chainblades", "brutal assault weapons", "master-crafted weapons", etc.

On an individual character like the Chaos Lord, or maybe even a unit leader like an Aspiring Champion? Sure, give me separate power axe/sword/maul/whatever profiles. They're separate models who are expected to have separate wargear anyway, so being able to customise them like that is nice and doesn't slow down the game. But on an entire squad like Chosen or Terminators, splitting up each weapon with its own profile has very few positive consequences.

1) On a convenience level, split profiles makes rolling for attacks with a "mixed" unit an incredible pain, forcing you to make separate hit/wound/save rolls for each power sword, power axe, power maul, lightning claw, chainaxe, and so on. Merged profiles remove that issue. They're all accursed weapons, roll together for the whole unit.

2) On a modelling level, split profiles forces you to pick between visuals and gameplay – if you want to give all your World Eaters Terminators power axes for a Khornate theme, or you want to give each Terminator a different weapon so they look individual, you have to balance that desire against the question of which weapon is best for your army. Merged profiles remove that issue – build whatever you think is coolest.

2.5) Also on a modelling level, split profiles restricts your creativity in gameplay terms. If you want to use Phoenix spears on your Emperor's Children Terminators, or daemonic flails on your Word Bearers, you have to negotiate with (and remind) your opponent what those represent in-game. Merged profiles remove that issue. They're all accursed weapons, no matter what they look like.

3) On a production level, split profiles presents GW with a dilemma. They can either produce boxes with a mix of interesting weapons (which will be difficult to use together in gameplay) or boxes with one shared type of weapon (which may be visually uninteresting, especially in a motley faction like Chaos), or boxes with enough copies of every type of weapon (which wastes sprue space). Short of going deep into upgrade sprues (which they seem reluctant to do in 40k/AoS, probably for reasons of accessibility), merged profiles are the best answer – GW can include a range of different weapon types without leaving players with a nonsense jumble of profiles.

The only positive of split profiles for power weapons on a whole unit was the sense of customisation – gameplay customisation, specifically – that a player got from outfitting their unit in one specific way for one specific mechanical benefit. Assuming they could scavenge or print the parts to do so.

I have my gripes with the current attitude to wargear options – and even in the current Chaos Terminator profiles, I really wish it boiled down to "accursed weapon + combi-weapon, power fist (heavy weapon) + combi-weapon, or accursed weapon + accursed weapon" – but merged profiles for different weapon designs across a whole unit aren't one of them.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/01/28 14:05:55


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I'm assuming hth combat is still abstracted so various units just heave buckets of dice at each other?

The streamlined method I came with for 2nd speeds up hth resolution by a significant factor. It's still model-on-model but all you do is add up the bonus for each figure, both players roll a die and the winner smacks the loser. Goes pretty fast and you get more granularity, so that weapons combinations matter more.

Obviously, the model count in 2nd was lower, but I don't mind. Given the lack of movement trays, I think simply placing and moving all the figures imposes a hard cap on what can be feasibly (and enjoyably) played.

Want a better way to do fantasy/historical miniatures battles?  Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory.

Do you like Star Wars but find the prequels and sequels disappointing?  Man of Destiny is the book series for you.

My 2nd edition Warhammer 40k resource page. Check out my other stuff at https://www.ahlloyd.com 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 aphyon wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Ah yes, a giant list of the things that made me take a look at HH, realize that it's just a better game and does the 8th Legion's rules infinitely better than 9th edition 40k, and therefore run straight into its welcoming arms.


I just pick up a copy of the 3.5 chaos codex and have warm fuzzy feelings. it still has never been bested in all the editions of 40K since.

Oldhammer or no hammer for our group. 9th is just terrible. pretty much nobody in our are plays it anymore. even the guys who were once big into it. now they play FOW, battletech, infinity and the like or join us for some oldhammer. i know GW sales are still good for the new minis, but outside of the tourney players i don't see it getting any play time.

I get similar feelings when looking at 3.5, but I can no longer say it's the "best", at least for Night Lords. The 8th Legion Liber Hereticus list takes everything that the 3.5 list did, cranks it up to 11.....and then breaks off the nob. For Night Lords at least, 3.5 has finally been bested, IMHO.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






I think part of the issue for Chaos is that GW has flip flopped over the years as to how they see Chaos.

Rogue Trader was a riot of choice. Genuine anarchy.

2nd Ed, as was it’s general trend, was a refinement. This is where we first got stuff like Mk1 Plasma and Reaper Autocannon. Additions and changes which gave them a specific identity.

We won’t talk about the next Codex as that came from t’dark times.

3.5 was good. Like really good. But after that the splits were made and CSM drifted close to just being Spiky Marines.

Please note I’m not up to date on current 40K, and much of the other stuff has blended into one in my memory.

But the trickiest thing? Chaos being Chaos, every incarnation has been a valid incarnation, even when they were just Marines But With Spikes.

They just need to do a Power Rangers, and bring ‘em together.

I think a single mega-jumbo-plus-size Codex would be viable, but wouldn’t be overly opposed to different volumes.

All they need do is work out a viable mix and match FoC solution if they go with Different Volumes.

But I would concede a mega-jumbo-plus-size Codex would still need to have some kind of hierarchy of HQ’s. I say this as I just can’t see a Mortal Cult Demagogue ever being in a position to boss Chaos Marines around, as even the lowliest Aspiring Champion not only has a century or more on the Demagogue, but an ego to stroke too.

   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




I wonder if this "mega jumbo" book would have as many data sheets as a "normal" Space Marine codex has/would have? I mean we don't have the same variety of troops that SM's have or as many elite choices or fast or heavy options (Well maybe we have as many elites if you add in the god specific elite units). Anyone feel like doing a tally?
   
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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Well, the trouble with that?

You’re already missing Lost and The Damned/Renegade Guard.

   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought




San Jose, CA

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, the trouble with that?

You’re already missing Lost and The Damned/Renegade Guard.


Sad, truly sad.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, the trouble with that?

You’re already missing Lost and The Damned/Renegade Guard.

And also any adjustments for warbands that still had access to Heresy era technology, nevrtmind that Legions like the 8th should just give a "pass" on anything that even smells "chao/daemonic.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Others have said it already, but I'll post just this pic as an illustration:


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Let’s not pretend that’s something exclusive to CSM though.

That’s not to justify it in anyway, just that it’s not unique to CSM.

   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Let’s not pretend that’s something exclusive to CSM though.

That’s not to justify it in anyway, just that it’s not unique to CSM.
It's not exclusive to CSM, but I dare say they got hit the hardest.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in de
Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Let’s not pretend that’s something exclusive to CSM though.

That’s not to justify it in anyway, just that it’s not unique to CSM.


Also let's not pretend that a direct comparison is entirely fair: stuff like psychic powers still exists, but is no longer bought from the armoury, a lot of the old list like e.g. demonic stature, speed etc. just meant a +1 to a single stat, stratagems etc. functionally work like some of that gear as well and so on and so on.

It's unquestionably true that options have been dramatically cut, and often in a nonsensical way, but not all cuts were bad cuts.
   
 
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