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Aecus Decimus wrote:
TBH an order demon would be one of the most terrifying concepts in 40k. At least the four Chaos gods stand for something and need the universe to continue existing, a Chaos demon of order would be pure self-destructive nihilism. The ultimate order is a perfect crystal at absolute zero, which means destroying the entire universe as we know it in order to re-form it in this minimum entropy state. Even Khorne's slaughter has more limits, as Khorne needs something to survive so that war may continue.

No, a spirit of Order would simply want to maintain natural laws against the onslaught of Chaos wrecking them.

Call them the Gods of the Copybook Headings if it makes you feel better.

This is an important reminder that game mechanics =/= fluff. Purity seals have an effect in the game mechanics as a purchased upgrade, that doesn't mean they have any purpose in the lore.

Fascinating concept. So are you saying there are no purity seals in the fluff or that in the fluff they accomplish nothing?

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

Aecus Decimus wrote:

This is an important reminder that game mechanics =/= fluff. Purity seals have an effect in the game mechanics as a purchased upgrade, that doesn't mean they have any purpose in the lore.

Fascinating concept. So are you saying there are no purity seals in the fluff or that in the fluff they accomplish nothing?

A purity seal might well accomplish nothing in the fluff. However a warrior of certain skill/experience might be awarded one for past actions which reflects their increased performance over regular soldiers. So when the player "purchases" the upgrade its simply reflecting that they are using a more experienced warrior which, game wise, comes with an increased points cost.

Or the seal itself could have some magical property that does enhance a persons performance beyond the normal

Or the seal does nothing, but it bolsters the persons self confidence which encourages them to perform better and put more of their skill and dedication into things which results in increased performance over the average person.

I think it varies by level, viewpoint/knowledge of the speaker in universe, and by author (especially early on).

Personally (head canon), I'd say it includes all kinds of stuff:

1) superstition
2) software
3) advanced software
4) low-level AI
5) non-human brain in a box
6) human brain in a box
7) daemons of the noosphere
8) True AI

Regarding the LR specifically:

MDC noted Rynn's Might and it's independent behavior (in hunting the orks).

In the same WD or roundabouts that told that story (around the release of the new kit) there was a story on the creation of land raiders which noted that the last thing required to activate the machine spirit was the sacrifice of a large predatory animal.

The poster for the land raiders inner works showed a sealed sphere with wires coming out as the machine spirit (perfect for a brain in a box).

Younger me added 2+2+2 and determined that the sacrifice wasn't ritual, it was that they "servitored" the animals brain into the LR's operating system. I still maintain that today.

Being an animal brain and it being part of/controlling the AI might be seen as keeping the rule intact of "no AI in the likeness of man" while bending it pretty hard.

The brain in a box gives the LR the personality of a wild predatory animal, usually reigned in by code, and the Marine operating the controls. Lacking the SM, Rynn's might returned to hunting as if it were a tiger with better armor and claws that could shoot.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
No, a spirit of Order would simply want to maintain natural laws against the onslaught of Chaos wrecking them.

What "natural laws"? In 40k Chaos, the warp, demonic entities, etc, are all part of the natural laws of the universe. The fact that they are not things that exist in our universe does not mean that they're somehow "unnatural" in the 40k setting.

The reality is that if you want a spirit of Order then the perfect Order, with no entropy at all, is a perfect crystal at absolute zero. Everything precisely arranged in uniform arrays, no movement or change for the rest of eternity. And it's the only concept that really fits in the dystopia of 40k. You can have a Chaos god of Order, but it is a nihilistic executioner that views every civilization as disorderly trash that must be purged from the universe so that Order may be restored.

Fascinating concept. So are you saying there are no purity seals in the fluff or that in the fluff they accomplish nothing?

Obviously there are purity seals in the fluff. They are the ignorant superstitions of a cargo cult and have no practical effect beyond making the idiot priests feel like they're doing something.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

The reality is that if you want a spirit of Order then the perfect Order, with no entropy at all, is a perfect crystal at absolute zero. Everything precisely arranged in uniform arrays, no movement or change for the rest of eternity. And it's the only concept that really fits in the dystopia of 40k. You can have a Chaos god of Order, but it is a nihilistic executioner that views every civilization as disorderly trash that must be purged from the universe so that Order may be restored.

WHFB has the similar Alluminas who is said to be an unchanging source of light that freezes everything in place, forever.
In one of Moorcock's stories, there is a description of a plane where Order (or as Moorcock put it, Law) had triumphed and it was a blank featureless white plain under a constantly steadily lit sky.

However even with such a god in 40K, it is still workable in the sense that they may make bargains for the sake of their ultimate goal even if this goal is inimical to human life. "I'll kill you last" in other words. There would still be people willing to make such a bargain in return for power, just as in other fantasy IP there are worshippers of nihilistic gods that want to destroy everything. Such nihilistic gods have enough restraint to not destroy their own followers in favor of prioritizing their efforts against their enemies first.

Ynnead to some extent fills such a role as compared to the wildness of Slaanesh. Ynnead is called the Whispering God and one of Ynnead's followers, Iyanna Arienal, seemingly has the plan (which may or may not be Ynnead's plan) to save the Eldar of Iyanden by killing them all. The idea of Ynnead saving the Eldar from an afterlife of torment by Slaanesh through killing them all and presumably preserving them forever either in an afterlife within Ynnead or as a new race of the dead as wraith constructs is somewhat similar to the idea of a god of Law saving reality by destroying it in a different way.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

Fascinating concept. So are you saying there are no purity seals in the fluff or that in the fluff they accomplish nothing?

Obviously there are purity seals in the fluff. They are the ignorant superstitions of a cargo cult and have no practical effect beyond making the idiot priests feel like they're doing something.

Y'got any sources to back that claim up, guv'nor?

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:


Remember, there can be no Chaos without Order, and the spirits of Order can take many forms. Indeed, one would assume that they would necessarily choose the least intrusive forms possible precisely to keep things organized.

Well, not in our dimension. But the Warp isn’t subject to the same natural laws.

As ever, let’s go back to the very, very beginning and the Rogue Trader era.

In Slaves to Darkness, we’re presented with The Emperor’s origin story. And that tells us some interesting things. First, The Warp hasn’t always been the domain of the Chaos Gods. It one knew balance. Upon death, sufficiently powerful souls would bathe in the warp to regenerate and recoup, then reincarnate in our dimension. The Shamans of Earth could do this, but began to find it ever harder to achieve.

And that was due to growing imbalance. I’d need to read it again, but whilst they knew this was due to the entities that’s would become the Chaos Gods growing in power. So they mass unalived themselves, went for one last dip, then came together to reincarnate as a single, nigh-omnipotent being history would come to know as The Emperor.

Of particular interest is there came a time when the Chaos Gods could influence and to a degree interact with our dimension. Nurgle sends plagues. Tzeentch lends power and encourages plots. Khorne drives beings to war and murder. They’ve become self-sustaining on such a scale the warp can never return to balance.

Slaanesh all but wiped out the Eldar pantheon, and other than Gork and Mork? There’s no mention at all of racially owned, let alone benevolent racially owned Gods. So I feel we must assume whatever gods of order might’ve exist, have long since snuffed it, being consumed by the others.

This is kind of reflected in the Big Four, who are corruptions of historical gods. Nurgle is a god of nature and abundance gone insane. Khorne is a god of warriors and war gone insane (he encourages the murder of the weak, as well as the skulls of the honourable). Tzeentch is a god of hope gone insane.

So I don’t think we can say there must be order in the warp. At least, not anymore.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Slaanesh all but wiped out the Eldar pantheon, and other than Gork and Mork? There’s no mention at all of racially owned, let alone benevolent racially owned Gods. So I feel we must assume whatever gods of order might’ve exist, have long since snuffed it, being consumed by the others.

The Greater Good exists as a god now.

Also the warp seethes with all manner of independent daemons, minor gods, and strange warp life such as enslavers. Even when the major gods are dominant, they do not extinguish the existence of all other "life" within the warp.

 Dysartes wrote:

Aecus Decimus wrote:

Fascinating concept. So are you saying there are no purity seals in the fluff or that in the fluff they accomplish nothing?

Obviously there are purity seals in the fluff. They are the ignorant superstitions of a cargo cult and have no practical effect beyond making the idiot priests feel like they're doing something.

Y'got any sources to back that claim up, guv'nor?

Got any sources that they do have an effect?

While there's no explicit statement AFAIK that they don't do anything it's a major point of the setting that the 40k Imperium is a cargo cult run by ignorant zealots. Purity seals having an effect would go directly against this concept and make all the worship and ritual into a practical thing, not a display of profound ignorance and superstition. And it would also go against the fact that the factions that aren't idiot theocracies have no need for purity seals or incense or any of that nonsense. Tau don't need them. Necrons don't need them. GSC don't need them on their stolen Imperial hardware. Even the 30k Imperium didn't need them, despite in many cases using the exact same hardware as the 40k Imperium. At best a purity seal is a ritualized secular object, a fancy way of sticking the relevant pages from the maintenance documents on the object to help the user remember them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iracundus wrote:
The Greater Good exists as a god now.

Phil Kelly's fanfiction is thankfully not canon and is best ignored.

I’ve only read about the alleged Tau God on Dakka, so can’t pretend I’m particularly knowledgable, as I’m relying on 2nd hand info at best.

But the way it was explained to me far from ruled out it was another entity masquerading for its own purpose and amusement.

Given it appeared to have dealt with a Nurgle fleet? Quite possibly something Tzeentchian, given they’re traditional opponents in the warp.

If someone can remind me which book it’s in, I’ll add it to my list of stuff needing read.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
If someone can remind me which book it’s in, I’ll add it to my list of stuff needing read.

Don't. It's in Phil Kelly's awful Tau fanfiction. Aside from getting basic concepts of the faction spectacularly wrong they're not even enjoyable to read. Based on everything I've seen from people who have fallen on that particular grenade for research purposes they're excellent examples of why Kelly is a hack who should never get another book contract again.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’ve only read about the alleged Tau God on Dakka, so can’t pretend I’m particularly knowledgable, as I’m relying on 2nd hand info at best.

But the way it was explained to me far from ruled out it was another entity masquerading for its own purpose and amusement.

Given it appeared to have dealt with a Nurgle fleet? Quite possibly something Tzeentchian, given they’re traditional opponents in the warp.

If someone can remind me which book it’s in, I’ll add it to my list of stuff needing read.

It's in War of Secrets. It's also theorized as not being a Tau God but being a manifestation of the allied psychic races belief in the Greater Good, iirc.

Also, that whole series of books is not really great, and this entity literally functions as a Deus Ex Machina that appears to tie up some loose ends, so ymmv on how 'canonical' it is. IMHO it's a prime candidate for never being mentioned again, like some other out-there stuff in some of the novels.

Not pre-judging it, as I can usually find interesting angles and thoughts in novels and background…but.

It seems unlikely to be a New Thing to me. The Ad Mech singularly outnumber the Tau and their Empire, yet there appears to be no Machine God in the Warp, despite such a thing being believed in for well over 10,000 years.

The Emperor though perhaps isn’t much help, as he’s a currently mortal focus of such adoration/active worship, which may be limiting his manifestation in the warp.

We can also look to Slaanesh, whose birth took a long arsed time, despite a numerous and singularly potent food source during its gestation.

But as I said, I’ll give it a read see what I think.

To put the Greater Good God thing into perspective this is the same series of books that has an ethereal mind controlling a subordinate into suicide over a minor breach of etiquette and Farsight getting demoted and harshly punished for daring to repair his suit instead of drowning (since that's not his caste's job). It's all just Kelly being a hack and adding a bunch of grimderp to turn the Tau into the Imperium with anime robots because he lacks the imagination to make a compelling villain otherwise.

The Greater Good god is obliquely referenced in the latest Tau Codex with regards to the 4th Sphere Expansion and what it encountered in the warp and how they escaped. So like it or not, it is canon.

Iracundus wrote:
The Greater Good god is obliquely referenced in the latest Tau Codex with regards to the 4th Sphere Expansion and what it encountered in the warp and how they escaped. So like it or not, it is canon.

It's canon that something happened there, that probably involved some sort of warp entity. It may still have been, dunno, the Changeling or whatever. Or it may be 'demoted' to ''We have no idea, it's the warp, that's not even the weirdest gak that happened that month, let alone ever, just don't think too much about it''.

The reason it is obliquely referenced is I think an attempt to show that the Ethereals are keeping secrets. The Tau themselves all seem to universally react with disgust to the idea or experience of the Greater Good as actual warp entity.

The point of the story though seems to be a parallel to Guilliman. At the end, Shadowsun seems to be more open to the idea of faith having its uses. Guilliman is just a bit further along, as he has already used faith purely from a pragmatic point of view as being useful, and is now wondering whether the Emperor really is now a god.

Iracundus wrote:
The reason it is obliquely referenced is I think an attempt to show that the Ethereals are keeping secrets.

For the record, i'm not against a Greater God™ in general, but it IMHO needs a good justification because e.g. the Imperium is just beginning to get 'miracles' and demon-like entities after 10.000 years of active worship by trillions, if not quadrillions, of relatively highly-psychic beings, while the Tau empire is practically a newcomer on the galactic stage and has much lower population levels. Being tricked by some sort of demon is overall much better fitting to their general attitude of blessed naivety concerning Chaos and the Warp. There are several examples of Greater Demons 'playing god' for whole subsectors for extended periods of time in the background, and displacing or destroying a couple of ships is in scope of their general power level, if on the upper end of it.

Tsagualsa wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
The reason it is obliquely referenced is I think an attempt to show that the Ethereals are keeping secrets.

For the record, i'm not against a Greater God™ in general, but it IMHO needs a good justification because e.g. the Imperium is just beginning to get 'miracles' and demon-like entities after 10.000 years of active worship by trillions, if not quadrillions, of relatively highly-psychic beings, while the Tau empire is practically a newcomer on the galactic stage and has much lower population levels. Being tricked by some sort of demon is overall much better fitting to their general attitude of blessed naivety concerning Chaos and the Warp. There are several examples of Greater Demons 'playing god' for whole subsectors for extended periods of time in the background, and displacing or destroying a couple of ships is in scope of their general power level, if on the upper end of it.

The Emperor has been giving miracles to the SoB for thousands of years all over the Galaxy. In previous stories they were low key nudges of fate here and there, but it seems with the Rift they have become more overt with all the golden light and daemons combusting.

The Greater Good entity has only been active around the region of the Startide Nexus. Its reach is therefore only localized to a specific area within the Tau Empire. Its miracles have also been more mild (aside from that big burst of holding the DG fleet in the warp). Mostly they were protective in the form of repelling Nurgle's flies and rot. No making enemies spontaneously combust like Imperial preachers or SoB do.

So in other words, the Emperor is dabbling in events all over the galaxy, whereas the Greater Good is a localized warp god that seems to have intervened only sparingly and only around a specific warp rift. That sounds about right for a minor warp god.

I find the whole "a daemon did it" actually the least interesting option than watching the Tau struggle with the idea of faith in the universe as it clashes with their ideals, but has undeniable uses.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Aecus Decimus wrote:

Fascinating concept. So are you saying there are no purity seals in the fluff or that in the fluff they accomplish nothing?

Obviously there are purity seals in the fluff. They are the ignorant superstitions of a cargo cult and have no practical effect beyond making the idiot priests feel like they're doing something.

Y'got any sources to back that claim up, guv'nor?

Got any sources that they do have an effect?

While there's no explicit statement AFAIK that they don't do anything it's a major point of the setting that the 40k Imperium is a cargo cult run by ignorant zealots. Purity seals having an effect would go directly against this concept and make all the worship and ritual into a practical thing, not a display of profound ignorance and superstition. And it would also go against the fact that the factions that aren't idiot theocracies have no need for purity seals or incense or any of that nonsense. Tau don't need them. Necrons don't need them. GSC don't need them on their stolen Imperial hardware. Even the 30k Imperium didn't need them, despite in many cases using the exact same hardware as the 40k Imperium. At best a purity seal is a ritualized secular object, a fancy way of sticking the relevant pages from the maintenance documents on the object to help the user remember them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iracundus wrote:
The Greater Good exists as a god now.

Phil Kelly's fanfiction is thankfully not canon and is best ignored.

Yes. The entire DoW videogame series, and the Space Marine game. Both of those are considered canon, and have Purity Seals that can be found as literal upgrades. In Space Marine, they basically grant an Invuln. In DoW 1-3 they grant bonuses to other things.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Aecus Decimus wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Aecus Decimus wrote:

Fascinating concept. So are you saying there are no purity seals in the fluff or that in the fluff they accomplish nothing?

Obviously there are purity seals in the fluff. They are the ignorant superstitions of a cargo cult and have no practical effect beyond making the idiot priests feel like they're doing something.

Y'got any sources to back that claim up, guv'nor?

Got any sources that they do have an effect?

While there's no explicit statement AFAIK that they don't do anything it's a major point of the setting that the 40k Imperium is a cargo cult run by ignorant zealots. Purity seals having an effect would go directly against this concept and make all the worship and ritual into a practical thing, not a display of profound ignorance and superstition. And it would also go against the fact that the factions that aren't idiot theocracies have no need for purity seals or incense or any of that nonsense. Tau don't need them. Necrons don't need them. GSC don't need them on their stolen Imperial hardware. Even the 30k Imperium didn't need them, despite in many cases using the exact same hardware as the 40k Imperium. At best a purity seal is a ritualized secular object, a fancy way of sticking the relevant pages from the maintenance documents on the object to help the user remember them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iracundus wrote:
The Greater Good exists as a god now.

Phil Kelly's fanfiction is thankfully not canon and is best ignored.

Yes. The entire DoW videogame series, and the Space Marine game. Both of those are considered canon, and have Purity Seals that can be found as literal upgrades. In Space Marine, they basically grant an Invuln. In DoW 1-3 they grant bonuses to other things.

Video and tabletop games don't translate to the real world perfectly.
As I outlined above "purchasing" upgrades in a game doesn't mean that they "do" anything in lore/fluff. Your purchase might reflect a purity seal doing something or that you're hiring/training a trooper to a higher level and that they come with a purity seal as a reflection of that higher skill.

Much like recruiting a real army if you hire grunts with no medals they might work well but if you hire decorated veterans they might cost you more and come with shiny medals. The Medals don't make them better, but they are a reflection of their superior actions/abilities.


And in the 40K setting you could get a myriad. Words DO have power in the setting, a seal can have powers; however defining which ones do and don't is messy. Two purity seals could be the same thing, but one might just be wax and paper; another might actually convey some kind of mythical strange power that does enhance things.

And any additional effect may not be the seal, but some low level but useful psychic ability in the bearer.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Yes. The entire DoW videogame series, and the Space Marine game. Both of those are considered canon, and have Purity Seals that can be found as literal upgrades. In Space Marine, they basically grant an Invuln. In DoW 1-3 they grant bonuses to other things.

As I said before, game mechanics =/= lore. There are many things which are utter nonsense from a lore point of view but are done for the sake of having a fun and functional game.

Aecus Decimus wrote:
As I said before, game mechanics =/= lore. There are many things which are utter nonsense from a lore point of view but are done for the sake of having a fun and functional game.

But the rules come with fluff. Indeed, most of our canon comes from the fluff in the weapon/unit entry.

Using your logic, boltguns aren't canonical because they have an in-game effect.

Oh, and nice straw man regarding Order. I get it, it's a known sci-fi trope, but in 40k there are two systems of physics - the Chaos of the Warp, which defies gravity, time and space constraints - and the normal physics of Order that stands outside of it.

Thus a personification of Order would be a spirit that wishes to constrain Chaos through things like time, space and conventional physics. Order doesn't seek perfection, it seeks continuity. It is resistant rather than aggressive.

Similarly, the prayers and sacred oils guard machines against supernatural things like gremlins which try to break them outside of the normal maintenance cycle.

Order finds the Eye of Terror an abomination and has latched onto anything to constrain and contain it. Thus: the Emperor, the Greater Good, the Machine God.

These appear to be effective both in-game and in-fluff.

I think you’re misunderstanding.

Purity Seals aren’t something given in hope you’ll improve. They’re dished out for showing merit. In the same way a Marine with the Marksman Honour earned it for being an exceptional shot, not in the hope it’ll help Brother Dave, who’s always been a bit odd, remember which end of his Bolter is the dangerous end.

The in-game effect is way to represent the model being more individual than others of the same rank.

But, that doesn’t mean they can’t have some mystical property as well. We can see such a belief reflected in Chapter Relics. Those can vary from One In A Million type arms and armour, which are unique examples of a craft, to things which do seem to be genuinely miraculous in properties - whether it’s psychosomatic or not.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But, that doesn’t mean they can’t have some mystical property as well. We can see such a belief reflected in Chapter Relics. Those can vary from One In A Million type arms and armour, which are unique examples of a craft, to things which do seem to be genuinely miraculous in properties - whether it’s psychosomatic or not.

They are a form of blessing, no?

To be clear, I'm not outlining a new dogma about the God of Order, I'm simply noting that the opposing position - only Chaos is real and everything else is a delusion by superstitious idiots - is not consistent with the fluff or the game mechanics.

There is very much a gray area for people to choose whatever amuses or entertains them.

For people who like their Grimdarkness "pure" to the extent of all the gods are evil, they can play it that way. For everyone else, there is also room in the setting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One of the strengths of the original fluff was the GW purposefully left gaps. Some have closed, but I like that ambiguity.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But, that doesn’t mean they can’t have some mystical property as well. We can see such a belief reflected in Chapter Relics. Those can vary from One In A Million type arms and armour, which are unique examples of a craft, to things which do seem to be genuinely miraculous in properties - whether it’s psychosomatic or not.

They are a form of blessing, no?

To be clear, I'm not outlining a new dogma about the God of Order, I'm simply noting that the opposing position - only Chaos is real and everything else is a delusion by superstitious idiots - is not consistent with the fluff or the game mechanics.

There is very much a gray area for people to choose whatever amuses or entertains them.

For people who like their Grimdarkness "pure" to the extent of all the gods are evil, they can play it that way. For everyone else, there is also room in the setting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One of the strengths of the original fluff was the GW purposefully left gaps. Some have closed, but I like that ambiguity.

It's not so much that all gods are Evil, but that all gods are of the Warp, and the Warp itself is inimical to 'order' in the sense of natural laws - that's why they dropped capital 'O' Order soon after they worked out the basic metaphyisics of the Warp and Chaos in the roleplaying supplements for WHFB. It's a notable point where Warhammer deviates from its roots in Moorcock's system of Order vs. Chaos. Every god is in some way a 'chaotic' god because they draw power from the Warp. Even the 'good' gods are still warp entities, or at least have warp entities. When they introduced them, they tried to establish the C'tan as quasi-gods of realspace, but that has been mostly dropped too.

Prayer seals are marks of literally sanctified paper by a chaplain of an order, who can literally turn the tide of battle by shouting words.

You'd be silly to say prayer marks don't have power. That's like saying when a chaplain makes an invocation and recites the litany of fury, his brothers around him don't ACTUALLY fight harder, they just do it by accident.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
To be clear, I'm not outlining a new dogma about the God of Order, I'm simply noting that the opposing position - only Chaos is real and everything else is a delusion by superstitious idiots - is not consistent with the fluff or the game mechanics.

Lies. Gork and Mork are very real and the best.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Prayer seals are marks of literally sanctified paper by a chaplain of an order, who can literally turn the tide of battle by shouting words.

You'd be silly to say prayer marks don't have power. That's like saying when a chaplain makes an invocation and recites the litany of fury, his brothers around him don't ACTUALLY fight harder, they just do it by accident.

Chaplain thing could be an overdrive buried deep in a Marine’s psychoindoctrination. Think trigger words and phrases which send them temporarily loopy and extra hard. Useful in battlefield conditions, but not desirable in day to day operations. And that by no means needs the Chaplain to know that’s what’s actually happening, either.