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bobthe4th wrote:

 kodos wrote:

you compare games to other other games and when a full 40k army + books costs more than a PS5 + 1 game you have a real argument for why GW is expensive and the PS5 is the better deal for an adult hobby

Surely a fairer comparison would be to a console with multiple games?

why multiple games? You can compare multiple GW games with a console and multiple games, than the console is equal the table and terrain you buy, and the games are equal rulebooks and armies

 kurhanik wrote:
Also I wonder if it will be a flat 6% the rest of the world or if they will cook up their GW magic to make it cost even more.

GW magic.

GW wrote:The average change for plastic kits is about 6%.

The average of 6% is an average because GW prices are set to new price bands for GBP rather than applying a percentile increase to existing prices (which themselves are newly set price bands after the last price increase). Those are then converted into the applicable foreign currency price bands. You'll likely not get the same average as the GBP prices across foreign prices except by pure chance as that is not how GW sets international prices.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

caladancid wrote:
You can be as tired as you want, you will have plenty of time to rest once existing customers tap out and new ones aren't starting because of the entry cost.

Entry cost for GW games is dirt cheap relative to other adult hobbies.

You really need to fact check yourself before making that statement. I'm sure you can break out hobbies like flying a plane or sports cars in comparrison, but other similar hobbies. You can barely make a $500 warhammer 40K army, go check out Youtube, there are videos detailing $500 GW armies. While I can spend way less on A Song of Ice and Fire and have a full army faction, rules and an App that tracks it all for me. Updates are free and there are multiple factions to choose from. Competitive and friendly play with a tight rule set. Sure, there are rules questions, but the facebook groups are WAY more open and friendly to answer any questions.

GW has gotten away with jacking up the prices for so long because there were not enough competitors out there with enough traction to get a game anywhere you go. Now not only do games like ASOIAF have tournaments, they also have grand championship tournaments across the globe.

Not only ASOIAF, but other systems are building up and are not hitting price increases every 6 months-year. You can get many basic systems like one page rules for free to download and there are direct correlations between the factions from there and from GW.

Most other hobbies also allow for 3D printing as they realize it's here to stay. What's not here to stay is Warhammer 40K, there's a new edition right around the corner and you will have to repurchase all your overpriced books again.

I keep thinking of getting back into 40K or Fantasy/AOS, but then I look at the starting price for a 5 man box is roughly $50. I can buy a unit for ASOIAF with it's rules cards and movement tray for $40 (Yes, I can buy both for less through a discounter). A warhammer combat patrol is $150ish dollars, I can buy an army starting set for ASOIAF (4 units, NPCs, all the tokens, dice, ruler, cards and a rulebook for $110.00). Free rules updates in the free app.

GW is the big dog, but even big dogs get old and need to be taken behind the woodshed.

It's weird people bring up board games and video games all the time when talking about GW prices. I mean, I guess it makes some sense, because they're both games, but GW isn't just an expensive game, it's an expensive game with highly detailed plastic kits. And those are just expensive. It's not like other successful miniatures games are dramatically cheaper per model (in fact, many are more expensive per model but require far fewer models).

And anyway, you can always find a cheaper hobby. Library cards and walking trails are free, yo. But if Gloomhaven or WOW or scale models are what scratch itch these days, live your best life.

 kodos wrote:

Aecus Decimus wrote:
Entry cost for GW games is dirt cheap relative to other adult hobbies.

of course you can compare "gaming" to Hang Gliding or driving sports and argue that it is cheaper

but you don't, the same way as you don't compare a PS5 to Hang Gliding and argue that even at 3 times MSRP it is still cheaper than a Glider, or just a fraction of a Porsche 911
that is not an argument, that is just telling us that within the "gaming" hobby GW reached a point were you cannot compare it to other games but need to reach out to different hobbies to make the point that is is still reasonable priced

you compare games to other other games and when a full 40k army + books costs more than a PS5 + 1 game you have a real argument for why GW is expensive and the PS5 is the better deal for an adult hobby

and when the boardgame community goes bonkers because of the price of SW Shatterpoint, while the GW fanboys come up that the more expensive (with less content) Kill Team box is such great value and still cheaper than other adult hobbies, there is something wrong

But it keeps selling so clearly people don't consider "gaming" to be a single comparative hobby. Games consoles have been cheaper for decades. Board games have been cheaper for decades. Escape rooms exist in the gaming space and that's a more expensive hobby.

 Polonius wrote:
It's weird people bring up board games and video games all the time when talking about GW prices.

it is just wired that people compare GW miniature games to other adult hobbies to justify the price

and for the hobby with high detailed models, GW is not special or the only one
Gundam and historical scale models are there too, and there are also games to play with those

 kodos wrote:

bobthe4th wrote:

 kodos wrote:

you compare games to other other games and when a full 40k army + books costs more than a PS5 + 1 game you have a real argument for why GW is expensive and the PS5 is the better deal for an adult hobby

Surely a fairer comparison would be to a console with multiple games?

why multiple games? You can compare multiple GW games with a console and multiple games, than the console is equal the table and terrain you buy, and the games are equal rulebooks and armies

And DLC, then whatever flavour of console online play pass on top.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
It's weird people bring up board games and video games all the time when talking about GW prices.

it is just wired that people compare GW miniature games to other adult hobbies to justify the price

and for the hobby with high detailed models, GW is not special or the only one
Gundam and historical scale models are there too, and there are also games to play with those

As an adult the idea is you do what you enjoy and either you afford it or you don't. It shouldn't require justification, just do what makes you happy.

deano2099 wrote:
But it keeps selling so clearly people don't consider "gaming" to be a single comparative hobby. Games consoles have been cheaper for decades. Board games have been cheaper for decades. Escape rooms exist in the gaming space and that's a more expensive hobby.

and those are selling too?
or you gonna think the boardgame market did not grow in the last years?

40k saw a missive increase in popularity, what you write in as if it would be more popular than boardgames or consoles?

Dudeface wrote:

And DLC, then whatever flavour of console online play pass on top.

same as GW games
difference would be that most Game DLC are valid longer than a few months and are there to stay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:
As an adult the idea is you do what you enjoy and either you afford it or you don't. It shouldn't require justification, just do what makes you happy.

than why do people come up with "GW is still cheaper than other adult hobbies" in price discussion topic if it is not to justify the GW price?

 Theophony wrote:
GW has gotten away with jacking up the prices for so long because there were not enough competitors out there with enough traction to get a game anywhere you go. Now not only do games like ASOIAF have tournaments, they also have grand championship tournaments across the globe.

Not only ASOIAF, but other systems are building up and are not hitting price increases every 6 months-year. You can get many basic systems like one page rules for free to download and there are direct correlations between the factions from there and from GW.

Most other hobbies also allow for 3D printing as they realize it's here to stay. What's not here to stay is Warhammer 40K, there's a new edition right around the corner and you will have to repurchase all your overpriced books again.

Every time this debate comes up (so every year or two) somebody makes this exact same point. well... almost exact. It's the same point except for the incredibly awesome game on the rise changes. I remember people citing Mage Knight, the rest of the prepainted games, Star Ship Troopers, Warmachine, flames of war, mailfaux, infinity, X-wing, Legion, Guild ball, and MCP in these threads. And some did stick around for a while, especially warmachine and x-wing. But most never even became a strong second in the minis market.

I"m not yucking your yum. If you love ASOIAF, or Conquest, or whatever, than go for it. But if you look at the list of also rans, the games that had the best runs (Aside from x-wing) were not licensed games. Between bleeding money to the license, and eventually running out of material, licensed games just will not last forever.

So, maybe you make the argument that instead of dropping a thousand bucks on a 40k army, you'll simply spend $250 a year on whatever the new hotness is. that starts to become a lease vs. buy type argument, but I can see the upside.

However, while you might be able to walk into a shop and get a game of ASOIF in your area in two years, I don't think most people will. But maybe you're right, and this will be the year GW prices itself out of the market and is taken down by a new, hungrier competitor. But I know where my money is riding.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
It's weird people bring up board games and video games all the time when talking about GW prices.

it is just wired that people compare GW miniature games to other adult hobbies to justify the price

and for the hobby with high detailed models, GW is not special or the only one
Gundam and historical scale models are there too, and there are also games to play with those

yeah, I don't think it's a compelling argument, because again, it's not like GW actively sets it's price against, say, golf or snow mobiling or paintball... but the cost of adult hobbies does create the environment in which GW sets it prices. As an adult with a decent job, I do not in any way feel bad about what I spend knowing what other people spend on their hobbies and/or leisure time. Hell, with proliferation of streaming services, my wife's "hobby" of watching TV no long has a trivial cost.

And yes, gundam and historical models exist, with a price range that's actually wider than miniature gaming. Sure, you can buy basic kits for about half the cost of similar GW kit, or several times more!

 kodos wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
As an adult the idea is you do what you enjoy and either you afford it or you don't. It shouldn't require justification, just do what makes you happy.

than why do people come up with "GW is still cheaper than other adult hobbies" in price discussion topic if it is not to justify the GW price?

The same reason people who don't play the game or buy any of the minis feel the need to come and decry the evil corporate overlords. Some people like to complain, some people feel attacked by the complaints.

 kodos wrote:
that is not an argument, that is just telling us that within the "gaming" hobby GW reached a point were you cannot compare it to other games but need to reach out to different hobbies to make the point that is is still reasonable priced

Of course I reach out to other hobbies to compare prices. My spending for hobbies all comes out of the same pool of money, I don't have a separate pool just for games. So all of those hobbies get compared to each other and GW is very definitely on the cheaper end of the scale.

you compare games to other other games and when a full 40k army + books costs more than a PS5 + 1 game you have a real argument for why GW is expensive and the PS5 is the better deal for an adult hobby

That's an absurd combination because nobody buys a PS5 and a single game. They're buying multiple games (often including a new version of the same game every year), subscription services for online play, DLC for their games, etc. And then every console generation means repeating the process from zero. Meanwhile that GW army is going to last effectively forever unless you're a hardcore tournament player and obsessed with chasing the meta and your ongoing costs to continue in the hobby are cheap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Theophony wrote:
While I can spend way less on A Song of Ice and Fire and have a full army faction, rules and an App that tracks it all for me.

Who cares? It's like arguing about the price efficiency of a $0.99 fast food burger vs. a $1.10 fast food burger. Both of them are cheap so just buy whichever one you like better.

Not only ASOIAF, but other systems are building up and are not hitting price increases every 6 months-year.

Only because they know they have to be cheaper than GW to compete. Don't act like they're keeping prices low as an act of charity, if they could get away with charging more than GW without collapsing their market share every single one of them would do it without hesitation.

ASOIF minis are also the dreaded "boardgame plastic" and while they paint up quite nicely, are not the same level of quality as most table top miniatures.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:


And you still buy from this company? Do you still try to introduce friends to this hobby?

Do you? If not, please be quiet.

Why should I be quiet? GW’s bad behavior spills over into other parts of the gaming world and affects everyone for the worse.

This is exactly why people should be vocal about their concerns especially in cases of scummy practices like these. For anyone who even works in a corporate environment they usually test the boundaries with things like this, small steps corrupt and such. I know a lot will feel attacked by this, but you are already trained to the bone to accept any detrimental change to your hobby and be charged more for receiving less. No sane person should even try to justify a another price hike after another price hike after another price hike for a big corporation that is already pushing a huge profit margin per product.

Furthermore don't bring ah but this is a cheap hobby into the equation, it is an insincere false-argument. At this rate if I build functional space craft as a hobby then most hobbies are cheap... hurr durr... gotcha dude, I justified your skewed value-perception. And at the rate this is going as you defend the price hike as a consumer you will be alone playing with your very expensive toys for your very expensive hobby.

I want the hobby to keep going at an accessible price range and with respect towards the consumer.

Wait till grandma slips during a bad case of frosting ... GW PRICE HIKE ... TOTALLY JUSTIFIED.

pleasestopit wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:


And you still buy from this company? Do you still try to introduce friends to this hobby?

Do you? If not, please be quiet.

Why should I be quiet? GW’s bad behavior spills over into other parts of the gaming world and affects everyone for the worse.

This is exactly why people should be vocal about their concerns especially in cases of scummy practices like these. For anyone who even works in a corporate environment they usually test the boundaries with things like this, small steps corrupt and such. I know a lot will feel attacked by this, but you are already trained to the bone to accept any detrimental change to your hobby and be charged more for receiving less. No sane person should even try to justify a another price hike after another price hike after another price hike for a big corporation that is already pushing a huge profit margin per product.

Furthermore don't bring ah but this is a cheap hobby into the equation, it is an insincere false-argument. At this rate if I build functional space craft as a hobby then most hobbies are cheap... hurr durr... gotcha dude, I justified your skewed value-perception. And at the rate this is going as you defend the price hike as a consumer you will be alone playing with your very expensive toys for your very expensive hobby.

I want the hobby to keep going at an accessible price range and with respect towards the consumer.

Wait till grandma slips during a bad case of frosting ... GW PRICE HIKE ... TOTALLY JUSTIFIED.

What is the profit margin per product, exactly? I'm not talking about raw material costs vs sale price, I'm talking all overheads from start of design up to production, logistics and sale at retailer price.

It's obviously not terrible but I don't think it'll be anywhere near the huge number you expect.

we don't know, we just have hints that GWs margin is somewhere around 40%

We absolutely know, at least the average, just deduct their claimed cost of sales on their financial report from their declared turnover, that's their gross margin, their declared profit is their net.

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 RaptorusRex wrote:
Complaining and complaining about complaining, round 1461647.

Bob has the right idea.

What, come and ineffectually complain about something they don't partake in and have no interest in?

Exalted.

I'm disappointed with the price rise, but not surprised. It won't stop me buying, even though times are tight. It's my hobby, after all.

And that's why they do it. Because they can.

 Azreal13 wrote:
We absolutely know, at least the average, just deduct their claimed cost of sales on their financial report from their declared turnover, that's their gross margin, their declared profit is their net.

Doesn't the profit etc include royalties and other stuff? I'm not economics savvy enough to pretend I'd get the right figures.

It's lined out on the report separately, and if youndive deeper you can even break it down by region etc with reasonable accuracy. I'm just not invested enough to make the effort.

 Polonius wrote:
It's weird people bring up board games and video games all the time when talking about GW prices. I mean, I guess it makes some sense, because they're both games, but GW isn't just an expensive game, it's an expensive game with highly detailed plastic kits.

So are gunpla kits. And a whole lotta boardgames nowadays. And still...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Polonius wrote:
And yes, gundam and historical models exist, with a price range that's actually wider than miniature gaming. Sure, you can buy basic kits for about half the cost of similar GW kit, or several times more!

I mean, basic Gundam kits are only basic in comparison with other Gundam kits. Not in comparison with GW, as tech and quality wise even the "basic" gunplas are magnitude orders better.

The more expensive Gundam kits would have to be compared with Forgeworld kits... and that comparison would not go well for GW, either.

6% increase after last year 5% prince increase with profits trought the roof.

Ok. Lovely lookin at those Ogre Infantry going from 32,50€ to 42,50€ and now 45€ in the span of 4 years.

GW sells because the IP theres no point in comparing with anything else just like Star Wars or Disney sells anything they touch.

 Galas wrote:
6% increase after last year 5% prince increase with profits trought the roof.

Ok. Lovely lookin at those Ogre Infantry going from 32,50€ to 42,50€ and now 45€ in the span of 4 years.

What, you expected already amortized sprues (many, many times over) not to go up in price? C'mon, be serious.

This 6% increase doesn't break it for me. It does give me a little bit of a bitter taste in my mouth though...

If anything, a price drop would probably be better for them in terms of revenue and overall profit. Anyway, it is greed.

I'll continue with my AM force being all GW official, but I think if I want additional factions I'll turn to 3D printing, I can use my AM at official events and the like, and play other factions in a more casual setting if I want a different flavour for far cheaper.

 Albertorius wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
It's weird people bring up board games and video games all the time when talking about GW prices. I mean, I guess it makes some sense, because they're both games, but GW isn't just an expensive game, it's an expensive game with highly detailed plastic kits.

So are gunpla kits. And a whole lotta boardgames nowadays. And still...

Yeah, anybody serious about boardgames is probably spending as much as a GW fanboi per year, and not even playing half the games.

I think if you want to draw a line between the GW hobby and other hobbies, it's that it is very difficult to dabble. By that, I mean you can play D&D with a set of dice and a players handbook, you can buy one or two board games, etc. But GW hobbies, even the smaller games, require a lot of stuff.

But, a lot of hobbies have a pretty steep barrier to entry. In fact, I think that's the defining trait of the mythical "Adult hobby." You can go to the driving range and hit a bucket of balls for $30, but playing golf requires a full set of clubs. I dunno, I think that's why people keep briging it up. For an expensive hobby, it's cheap, if that makes sense.

pleasestopit wrote:
This is exactly why people should be vocal about their concerns especially in cases of scummy practices like these.

What exactly is scummy about price increases that are less than inflation? Is there something genuinely unethical here, beyond "I want my toys to be cheaper and anything that is inconvenient for me is scummy"?

Furthermore don't bring ah but this is a cheap hobby into the equation, it is an insincere false-argument. At this rate if I build functional space craft as a hobby then most hobbies are cheap... hurr durr... gotcha dude, I justified your skewed value-perception.

Yeah, because building amateur spacecraft is totally comparable to going out drinking on the weekend or buying a new gaming PC, things which are more expensive than playing 40k.

And at the rate this is going as you defend the price hike as a consumer you will be alone playing with your very expensive toys for your very expensive hobby.

People have been saying this for decades and it still hasn't happened.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
If anything, a price drop would probably be better for them in terms of revenue and overall profit.

That depends on the state of the market. If GW thinks they've already reached the point of converting most potential customers into actual customers (IOW, the majority of non-customers just don't like 40k for whatever reason) then a price cut would have little effect on sales volume. Most people who buy only the things they're going to immediately use probably won't buy much more than they already do because they're constrained more by time than money and the kids buying 1-2 boxes a year with their birthday money won't be able to increase their purchase volume without a massive price drop. GW would need to get most of that growth in volume from whales who already have 4-5 figure piles of shame and how many of those are there?

But this is all just speculation of course. The people who get paid well to manage hundreds of millions in annual business have looked at the data and concluded that the best way to increase total profit is by per-box profit, not by volume.

Anyway, it is greed.

If it was greed and the market research supported your theory they'd absolutely cut prices to make more money per year.

 Polonius wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
It's weird people bring up board games and video games all the time when talking about GW prices. I mean, I guess it makes some sense, because they're both games, but GW isn't just an expensive game, it's an expensive game with highly detailed plastic kits.

So are gunpla kits. And a whole lotta boardgames nowadays. And still...

Yeah, anybody serious about boardgames is probably spending as much as a GW fanboi per year, and not even playing half the games.

Indeed. Just like with GW stuff, really ^^

But I would agree that both of the above (gunplas and boardgames) can be dabbled much easier and cheaply than GW. Or yes, RPGs, which are stupidly cheap to dabble into.

OTOH, nowadays you can totally go brrrrr and proxy the GW stuff, too.

Honestly I think we need to start collecting these threads. A mandate that we must link back to the previous years of "price rise" to remind ourselves that we've said it all before - mostly around this same time of year too.





Also I want to point out that 3d printers are NOT cheaper.
They tempt you into a whole other hobby of buying newer better bigger printers; and buying resin; and more models than you will ever print in your life and more models and more resin and another printer and then


Then you might get tempted by FDM and the whole cycle starts anew as you print a whole table of terrain!!


Honestly I'm waiting for the "hey guys these concrete printers are really cheap now; you can buy one and print your own game hobby room for almost nothing compared to buying a shed! And they are are far more structurally sound - everyone get 3D concrete printers!!

Removed - rule #1

 Polonius wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
It's weird people bring up board games and video games all the time when talking about GW prices. I mean, I guess it makes some sense, because they're both games, but GW isn't just an expensive game, it's an expensive game with highly detailed plastic kits.

So are gunpla kits. And a whole lotta boardgames nowadays. And still...

Yeah, anybody serious about boardgames is probably spending as much as a GW fanboi per year, and not even playing half the games.

Source: dude, trust me

A month or two without a GW price rise is like a day without sunshine...

SMH