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Which is why the solution is to mechanically encourage lesser-than-marine units to get more exposure on the table, because Marines feel elite when pitted against greater numbers of GEQs, Orks, Gaunts etc.
agreed, but the problem is that space marine players don't have these options in their codex, and space marines are the most popular army.
so even if every non-marine army (for argument's sake) is now a horde army, you're still gonna be facing 30-40% (stats out of my ass) space marines
Perhaps the problem, then, is that every SM has been made into an elite?
There used to be Scouts, which were cheap but only had BS4+ and 4+ armour saves (albeit with Camo Cloaks, IIRC). Even Tactical Marines, while still elite in many respects, didn't feel too far above the troop choices in other armies.
Then, of course, you had the actual elites like terminators and various flavours of veterans.
Now, though, even the most basic SM has to be tougher than a Necron and generally packing AP even on basic weapons. It makes it very awkward to balance around - both internally and externally. Externally, you have the issue that the most common army in the game doesn't have any light units at all.. so anti-horde weapons are out the window entirely. Moreover, the elites in other armies need to be ridiculous in order to actually feel elite against armies with elites as basic troops. Similarly, from an internal standpoint, marines have more units than any other army, and yet they're starting with basic troops as elite. So then their elite troops need to be more elite. And their veterans need to be even more elite than that. And their terminators need to be even more elite than the elites who are more elite than the other elites. And their HQs... elite elite elite elite elite! IOW, it starts to get a little silly because you quickly run out of design space.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Elite does not mean overpowered.
If a good 2,000 point army consists of five squads of three to five models, it is very elite compared to a good 2,000 point army that’s made of ten squads of ten to twenty each.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Tyel wrote: Kind of remember Eldar and Tyranids eating Marines for breakfast in 2nd edition, but I guess I was only 10 or something, so experiences may be skewed.
The problem with saying "eliteness should be in functionality" is that it leads you to "if I make the correct decisions (from the bigger list of options than my opponent) I should win". But who wants to play the NPC faction, where if your opponent plays correctly, you lose (or are significantly more likely to lose, dice will be dice after all)?
Question your premise: What makes you say the Elite list have a bigger list of options? Custodes are generally referred to as Elite. They have so few models they almost definitely have fewer options both strategically and tactically than a generally not-called-elite list like Orks. It gets even more unlikely when comparing Knights to Nid Small Bugs etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pyroalchi wrote: I personally think modelcount is a big factor in this.
This keeps coming up - Let me ask you... why does model count matter? For the sake of argument, lets say every army is razor's edge balanced point for point against any other army. They're not, we know, but it also changes from era to era in edition to edition which ones are top dogs and which ones are nerfed into oblivion - so which is which at any given point doesn't matter either for the philosophical argument. And as bad as GW is at balance, they're also not THAT bad. Most armies are pretty close most of the time. Their failures usually come at the cost of not maintaining the balance they had when they try to fix the balance they didn't have.
Anyway - given that frame of reference - Why does model count matter? A blob is a blob. Unit X worth 200 points is just as elite as Unit Y worth 200 points. 5 nickels buy 25 cents worth of candy. A quarter buys 25 cents worth of candy. Its only psychology that makes us think a quarter is bigger than 5 nickels. A guy with 25 million in one savings account is rich. A guy with 5 million in 5 savings accounts is weird. Aside from a few usually balanced tradeoffs 5 of one or 10 1/2's of another are the same, its only an internal bias that says one is elite and one is not. My point is - as each army is 2,000 points the one guy doesn't matter in the elite discussion because you need to reduce them to buckets and blobs - faceless baseless abstracts. That said, even with the faceless baseless buckets of blobs, you can assign elite characteristics I suppose but not the These Guys are better point for point or model for model than those guys because one isn't correct (in theory again) and the other doesn't matter because at 2,000 points all the buckets of blobs even out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/12 03:28:17
An elite unit in the army, against a superior number of foes, is still elite. Even if they're outnumbered, let's say 100 to 1, the elite are still elite. They're superior individually. Why are you using a definition of elite that only you use?
‘What Lorgar’s fanatics have not seen is that these gods are nothing compared to the power and the majesty of the Machine-God. Already, members of our growing cult are using the grace of the Omnissiah – the true Omnissiah, not Terra’s false prophet – to harness the might of the warp. Geller fields, warp missiles, void shields, all these things you are familiar with. But their underlying principles can be turned to so much more. Through novel exploitations of these technologies we will gain mastery first over the energies of the empyrean, then over the lesser entities, until finally the very gods themselves will bend the knee and recognise the supremacy of the Machine-God"
- Heretek Ardim Protos in Titandeath by Guy Haley
Which is why the solution is to mechanically encourage lesser-than-marine units to get more exposure on the table, because Marines feel elite when pitted against greater numbers of GEQs, Orks, Gaunts etc.
agreed, but the problem is that space marine players don't have these options in their codex, and space marines are the most popular army.
so even if every non-marine army (for argument's sake) is now a horde army, you're still gonna be facing 30-40% (stats out of my ass) space marines
Perhaps the problem, then, is that every SM has been made into an elite?
There used to be Scouts, which were cheap but only had BS4+ and 4+ armour saves (albeit with Camo Cloaks, IIRC). Even Tactical Marines, while still elite in many respects, didn't feel too far above the troop choices in other armies.
For most of their life Scouts were BS3+ (or its equivalent) they were moved to Elites because too many players were taking two 5 man squads to fulfill a Troop "tax" and then loading up on the toys. AOO changes the paradigm, but I'm not too confident that will last. They added Sticky Capping as a trial baloon to improve troops, while removing the Troop Requirement entirely and Sticky Capping is both hope for the future and, sadly, the likely demise of the experiment. The solution is to make troops not a "tax", but the players are faster at warping a balance/paradigm change than GW is at keeping up with it. And if/when Sticky Capping is extended from the SM Only Alpha test to every faction on a Beta Test it'll just get worse. Rangers are only 1PPM more than scouts right now. Both are little over half an Infiltrator or Incursor. Make them Troops with sticky capping, infiltrate, and redeploy shenanigans etc and it becomes a war of infiltration/infiltration-denial/who-goes-first. Assuming they don't make other BRB changes though - maybe that's the catalyst that allows Assaulting out of Transports for a Drop and Chop.
Then, of course, you had the actual elites like terminators and various flavours of veterans.
Now, though, even the most basic SM has to be tougher than a Necron and generally packing AP even on basic weapons.
Again, for most of it's life the Bolter was AP -1 ish or its equivalent. It only really went to AP- when the Bolt Rifle was created. Necrons were reduced long before SM were buffed. They were reduced, I assume, in part to get them off the MEQ stat band, and in part as a first round nerfbat to reanimation protocols. Necrons are/were Tomb Kings in space, but GW forgot Tomb King basic troops that could be resurrected by a Tomb Priest were lower stat banded units more on par with Goblins or Men At Arms than Empire State Troops etc.
It makes it very awkward to balance around - both internally and externally. Externally, you have the issue that the most common army in the game doesn't have any light units at all.. so anti-horde weapons are out the window entirely. Moreover, the elites in other armies need to be ridiculous in order to actually feel elite against armies with elites as basic troops. Similarly, from an internal standpoint, marines have more units than any other army, and yet they're starting with basic troops as elite. So then their elite troops need to be more elite. And their veterans need to be even more elite than that. And their terminators need to be even more elite than the elites who are more elite than the other elites. And their HQs... elite elite elite elite elite! IOW, it starts to get a little silly because you quickly run out of design space.
Not only that, the "light" units are too "expensive". Upgrade an Intercessor to a Heavy Intercessor for what is it, about 25%? Sure, all kinds of bonus, few downsides. Heavy Intercessors probably took too much of a drop, or the Power Armor guys didn't take enough - probably the second. After that, there's also no reason to go more than 5 on most units. Better to go 5 and 5 than 10. Another unit is the biggest reason, free Sergeants are a close second. Blast is a somewhat distant third. Going 5 on the 3-6 units is one of the MANY reasons Power Level is generally a failure and we're seeing "free" wargear setting up Points to Work like Power level. You're losing me when you get to Terminators need to be more expensive and more elite than the other elite. Terminators vs Vanguard Vets, Terminators vs Aggressors, Terminators vs Bladeguard - I think they all kind of wash and it comes down to which sets of Elites (capital E) you're taking and what they synergize with. Aggresors/Shootinators/Hammernators synergize with Bladeguard, but not necessarily each other as a Moving Castle Reintue. 5 Shootinators and 5 Bladeguard are probably the best options if you ignore Primaris/Firstborn, but it's really 6:5 and pick 'em. And they're priced accordingly so I'm OK with that - My personal preference is the Aggressors - strangely enough because they have Heavy Support shoulder pads. Now that shoulder pads don't always match the Datasheet slot, I try and get both the FOC slot, and the Shoulder Pad balance. Its easy to get 10 Close Assault shoulder pads from Assault Intercessors and/or incursors, but the Primaris Heavy Support is generally Aggresors, Hellblasters or Eradicators in the theme that every company "donates" a 5 man squad to Guilliman's "Victrix Guard" retinue (that for convenience I name Indomitus Guard when it's Guilliman, Victrix when it's Calgar) of normal units in the Victrix Guard as a whole vs the Victrix Guard units in the Victrix Guard as a specialized unit.
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TheBestBucketHead wrote: An elite unit in the army, against a superior number of foes, is still elite. Even if they're outnumbered, let's say 100 to 1, the elite are still elite. They're superior individually. Why are you using a definition of elite that only you use?
There have been people in here saying the same thing I am - why are you using a definition of "only you" that only you use?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/12 04:16:56
JNAProductions wrote: Can you name another poster who uses "Elite" to mean "Overpowered in a gameplay sense"?
Can you name the first one? I mean I've made the point that in the right situation an army of Grots are "elite", so are you lying by implying me? Or- Unless that's how you're using it?
You are the only person who has said that elite means having a higher win rate over another. Most, though this is admittedly an assumption, probably mean compared between individual models. A Space Marine is more elite than a Grot, and a Custodian is more elite than a Space Marine. Better training, better abilities, better whatever.
Is an elite body guard unit following a general into battle no longer elite just because the enemy has more people on their side? I don't even think model count has anything to do with it, but in a game, it is often related.
‘What Lorgar’s fanatics have not seen is that these gods are nothing compared to the power and the majesty of the Machine-God. Already, members of our growing cult are using the grace of the Omnissiah – the true Omnissiah, not Terra’s false prophet – to harness the might of the warp. Geller fields, warp missiles, void shields, all these things you are familiar with. But their underlying principles can be turned to so much more. Through novel exploitations of these technologies we will gain mastery first over the energies of the empyrean, then over the lesser entities, until finally the very gods themselves will bend the knee and recognise the supremacy of the Machine-God"
- Heretek Ardim Protos in Titandeath by Guy Haley
JNAProductions wrote: Can you name another poster who uses "Elite" to mean "Overpowered in a gameplay sense"?
Can you name the first one? I mean I've made the point that in the right situation an army of Grots are "elite", so are you lying by implying me? Or- Unless that's how you're using it?
But you haven’t made that point.
A single Custodian Guard versus 1,000 Grots will lose. But the one Custode is still more elite, by common parlance.
You and you alone, as far as I can see, are using elite to mean “better for the points.”
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
JNAProductions wrote: Can you name another poster who uses "Elite" to mean "Overpowered in a gameplay sense"?
Can you name the first one? I mean I've made the point that in the right situation an army of Grots are "elite", so are you lying by implying me? Or- Unless that's how you're using it?
But you haven’t made that point.
A single Custodian Guard versus 1,000 Grots will lose. But the one Custode is still more elite, by common parlance.
You and you alone, as far as I can see, are using elite to mean “better for the points.”
Scroll up, there's been a couple of others.
And I have made that point for the Grots. You even made it part of the premise - Elite is a sliding scale. Same points Grots vs Same Points Knight is elite in an ironical case of the knight being "too elite" to deal with the quantity. Sure the Grots can't kill the knight, but they can ignore it. Heck the thing that started this itself bakes the army as a whole not a single model as the premise. They wanted Space Marines to play as elite. Not That-Dude-Over-There. Lets slide over to Warhammer Fantasy for a bit - that tarpit of Vampire Counts skeleton warriors grows faster than you can kill it - is it Elite? Individually they're weak, you kill 10 of them at a time, but 15 stand up in their place, meanwhile you keep losing a couple guys a turn. Collectively they're elite because you're stuck.
TheBestBucketHead wrote: You are the only person who has said that elite means having a higher win rate over another.
Who said that? Where did they say it? Nobody on either side has said that except when they're lying about what someone else has said to create a straw man. I have said that if you want to talk about Space Marines or any other faction being elite, you should consider an entire unit vs equal points other units, or even better a fluff-representative balanced 2K point army vs a fluff-representative balanced 2K army. Many people have tried to define elite as "play like in the fluff". The fluff rarely has one Marine vs one Grot. The fluff is usually a couple characters, and the bridge crew mixed amongst a bunch of squads (Sergeants/Veterans) made of Red Shirts.
Most, though this is admittedly an assumption, probably mean compared between individual models. A Space Marine is more elite than a Grot, and a Custodian is more elite than a Space Marine. Better training, better abilities, better whatever.
And that's my point about units/armies instead of the Last-Man-Standing Marine vs the Last-Man-Standing Grot. In the first place that's pretty rare. In the second, lets go tour some of the threads about Reroll bubbles. Unless that Last Man Standing Marine is a captain, Lieutenant, etc. he doesn't have his reroll bubble(s) anymore. He doesn't have a lot of the things you get from an entire faction layering their strengths over their weaknesses
Is an elite body guard unit following a general into battle no longer elite just because the enemy has more people on their side? I don't even think model count has anything to do with it, but in a game, it is often related.
Was the "elite body guard unit following a general into battle" elite before you counted people on each side? (Assuming you mean BODYGUARD/Look-Out-Sir) It does something special, but that doesn't necessarily mean elite It just means hard counter to the other guy's potential strength over your weakness. My Victrix Guard are not especially elite. BGV are only slightly more and generally better - but I take the Victrix Guard anyway, because one of my weaknesses is significant sniper fire taking a shortcut and eating the core out of my layered castle from within by ignoring Look Out Sir.
Finally, and to bring both of those together - one of the main reasons Space Mariness don't feel elite has nothing to do with Space Marines and was just touched on then apparently moved on from: Targeting rules. When only one or two units can shoot at your unit, or you can pick the only unit in the big blob of little blobs, tough units show up tougher. Glass Canons feel punchier because you've got a screening unit in front. If you've ever played Starcrat, Gladius, Total War: Warhammer etc you know how it works. You get much better performance out of an Alpha strike on the big stuff then some mop up on the little stuff than you do putting you big stuff against his big stuff, and your little stuff against his little stuff. If you can do that without exposing your Big Stuff to a counter attack, so much the better. Its the same concept for Tanks (Warriors, paladins, etc. not Leman Russes) and Taunt in PVP in WoW, etc.
No, collectively they're not elite, collectively they're *effective*. What difference does your definition of elite have from the term "effective"?
Well, I'd define "effective" as close, tight, slight edge, could go either way. The Grots can literally ignore the Knight all game long. There's nothing the Knight can do to change the end result if the Grots do. That's Elite.
Honestly if we could get a mod in here to shut down your stupidity that'd be great.
Nothing says Mods Look here! Like demanding censorship of someone who doesn't agree with you and personal attacks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Let's go to Meriam Webster's:
1
a
singular or plural in construction : the choice part : CREAM
the elite of the entertainment world
OK... so Terminators are the Elite of the Space Marine World. I'm not sure this applies to making Space Marines "play like elites.". But have a go if you think so. You can try Space Marines are the Elite of the Tabletop world, but then you've still got the Space Marines problem
b
singular or plural in construction : the best of a class
superachievers who dominate the computer elite
—Marilyn Chase
Space Marines who dominate the Table top. Now we're talking - this definition fits, but most of us would agree it's not literally what we're trying to mean.
c
singular or plural in construction : the socially superior part of society
how the French-speaking elite … was changing
—Economist
40K is a social game, but the cultured stylings of afternnoon tea featuring Ghazghkull Thraka and Angron doesn't quite sound what we're looking for.
d
: a group of persons who by virtue of position or education exercise much power or influence
members of the ruling elite
100 grots that can ignore a Knight for 5 turns and win sounds like a group of persons who by virtue of 100 positions exercises almost total power and influence over that game.
e
: a member of such an elite —usually used in plural
the elites …, pursuing their studies in Europe
—Robert Wernick
Circular Definition - A Space Marine is elite because Space Marines are elite. No Help.
But we do have two, two and a half definitions that could work for some common ground.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/02/12 06:41:33
For the assistance of everyone, could you give your definition of elite? I'm fond of:
often : superior in quality, rank, skill, etc.
ex.
an elite performer
an elite athlete
an athlete with elite skills
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nevermind, it seems I was late.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Why did you use Elite as a noun? That's more for The Elite, not if something is elite. As in, it's an adjective, or describing the noun. I'm not complaining that Necrons aren't part of The Elite as a class, I'm wishing that necrons were more elite.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/02/12 06:45:45
‘What Lorgar’s fanatics have not seen is that these gods are nothing compared to the power and the majesty of the Machine-God. Already, members of our growing cult are using the grace of the Omnissiah – the true Omnissiah, not Terra’s false prophet – to harness the might of the warp. Geller fields, warp missiles, void shields, all these things you are familiar with. But their underlying principles can be turned to so much more. Through novel exploitations of these technologies we will gain mastery first over the energies of the empyrean, then over the lesser entities, until finally the very gods themselves will bend the knee and recognise the supremacy of the Machine-God"
- Heretek Ardim Protos in Titandeath by Guy Haley
Which is why the solution is to mechanically encourage lesser-than-marine units to get more exposure on the table, because Marines feel elite when pitted against greater numbers of GEQs, Orks, Gaunts etc.
agreed, but the problem is that space marine players don't have these options in their codex, and space marines are the most popular army.
so even if every non-marine army (for argument's sake) is now a horde army, you're still gonna be facing 30-40% (stats out of my ass) space marines
Perhaps the problem, then, is that every SM has been made into an elite?
It is basically their schtick. Fundamental to the army identity. But many of the units of other factions have dropped in comparisson to Marines over the years. Lesser Daemons are a standout, for example. Those used to be priced at Marine levels, with the statline appropriately better than they have now.
Which is why the solution is to mechanically encourage lesser-than-marine units to get more exposure on the table, because Marines feel elite when pitted against greater numbers of GEQs, Orks, Gaunts etc.
agreed, but the problem is that space marine players don't have these options in their codex, and space marines are the most popular army.
so even if every non-marine army (for argument's sake) is now a horde army, you're still gonna be facing 30-40% (stats out of my ass) space marines
Perhaps the problem, then, is that every SM has been made into an elite?
It is basically their schtick. Fundamental to the army identity. But many of the units of other factions have dropped in comparisson to Marines over the years. Lesser Daemons are a standout, for example. Those used to be priced at Marine levels, with the statline appropriately better than they have now.
I get that being elite is their shtick but it doesn't work when Marines are so ubiquitous.
Even moving them to 2 wounds just makes 2 wounds the norm, rather than a mark of eliteness.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
I have not encountered 40K players using the term "elite" to refer to a tier of armies that will defeat other armies when the points and player skill are the same. I could see "elite" being used in sports that way (ie "the 2000's Tom Brady Patriots were an elite team...", but not 40K. In my experience, when 40K players talk about an army being "elite" they are referring to its archetype. An army might be "elite" or "hordes" or "gun-line" or "Nidzilla" etc etc. We might talk about "elite" players who have multiple tourney wins regardless of army. but I think we use the term "OP" or "Broken" to describe armies that are too powerful as an army. I don't think that Space Marine players are asking for their armies to be broken.
To me, an elite army is one with a low-model count and highly-capable infantry models. They might lose to a more numerous/less individually powerful unit/army that was built to the same points level, but they are still elite. I am not sure where the line is, but 30 points per model is certainly Elite and 10 points per model is not. Are Tactical Marines Elite? I think so, if only as entry-level Elite. If losing a model hurts then its an elite army. If you happily pull models then its probably not an elite army/unit?
When Space Marine players are saying that they want their army to feel "Elite" they are not saying it should be overpowered as an army. They are saying that the individual models should be powerful. They are not saying that they should defeat an equivalent points-level force simply by virtue of their characteristics (that would be broken and doesn't last). I don't think it matters that there are other Elite armies or that they are common. We don't and shouldn't control what other people want to bring. Two players can each have "elite" armies (say my Deathwing against my friends Custodes) and still feel that their armies/dudes are elite.
All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand
I think, when you curate lists down to more infantry focus. Marines do shine as fairly powerful.
It also gives a chance for transports to function better.
There is just not much design space left at the infantry side without expanding the basic game.
Too much of the game has been flatten i think, with so much of its unique rules being bloated mess that often struggle for players to understand.
Which is why the solution is to mechanically encourage lesser-than-marine units to get more exposure on the table, because Marines feel elite when pitted against greater numbers of GEQs, Orks, Gaunts etc.
agreed, but the problem is that space marine players don't have these options in their codex, and space marines are the most popular army.
so even if every non-marine army (for argument's sake) is now a horde army, you're still gonna be facing 30-40% (stats out of my ass) space marines
Perhaps the problem, then, is that every SM has been made into an elite?
It is basically their schtick. Fundamental to the army identity. But many of the units of other factions have dropped in comparisson to Marines over the years. Lesser Daemons are a standout, for example. Those used to be priced at Marine levels, with the statline appropriately better than they have now.
I get that being elite is their shtick but it doesn't work when Marines are so ubiquitous.
Yah, but since it's legitimately the army identity we just have to work around it.
Even moving them to 2 wounds just makes 2 wounds the norm, rather than a mark of eliteness.
I wouldn't say it made 2w the norm, but it's definitely common enough to shift the ideal meta-weapons to 2+ damage, which also just happens to shift focus away from the typical non-elite infantry since most infantry only have D1 weapons. My argument is that 2W Marines actually make them feel less elite in the long run because there's less incentive to bring those traditional non-elite "foil-infantry" against the Marines.
Universal 2W Astartes was a mistake. It's fine for "elite" Astartes, like Terminators and Veterans. But baseline TACs and CSM should have stuck to 1W. And yes, that includes intercessors.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/12 18:07:33
Apple fox wrote: I think, when you curate lists down to more infantry focus. Marines do shine as fairly powerful.
It also gives a chance for transports to function better. There is just not much design space left at the infantry side without expanding the basic game. Too much of the game has been flatten i think, with so much of its unique rules being bloated mess that often struggle for players to understand.
No. Too much of the game has been flattened by players not wanting to understand how things work. It's easier for them to just copy/paste a tourney list and call it a day.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gadzilla666 wrote: Universal 2W Astartes was a mistake. It's fine for "elite" Astartes, like Terminators and Veterans. But baseline TACs and CSM should have stuck to 1W. And yes, that includes intercessors.
Hard disagree.
The mistake was making it so that the PA factions don't have some kind of "lock" on their numbers. Chapters are, by and large, hard-capped with their numbers in the lore. It would have been an absolute joke to easily situate Astartes of all stripes into something akin to the way Drukhari got their bonus patrol detachments and the like.
Could you imagine how different playing Loyalist Marines would feel if you were locked into max sized squads and forced to use Combat Squads? Where Combat Squads was across the entirety of the infantry range, including things like Eliminators? Where Chapter Masters are Lords of War, Captains are one per army?
That alone would, IMO, contribute significantly towards making a more "elite" feeling army.
The Chaos side of things presents an interesting foil to the Loyalist side of things though, in that they aren't hardcapped in numbers for the most part. I genuinely don't have much to say on them outside of the handling has been resoundingly "meh". It keeps feeling like setting up for a new edition and new armies or a new set of allying rules or something of that nature.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/02/12 18:46:18
Gadzilla666 wrote: Universal 2W Astartes was a mistake. It's fine for "elite" Astartes, like Terminators and Veterans. But baseline TACs and CSM should have stuck to 1W. And yes, that includes intercessors.
100% agree. Wouldn't have even given it to Veterans. Terminators would be fine. D2 is very prevalent though, so that's a related balance negotiation.
Could you imagine how different playing Loyalist Marines would feel if you were locked into max sized squads and forced to use Combat Squads? Where Combat Squads was across the entirety of the infantry range, including things like Eliminators? Where Chapter Masters are Lords of War, Captains are one per army?
I basically play like that already, most of the time. Not sure how that changes anything.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/12 21:16:38
Breton, you're twisting the definition of "Elite" you're claiming to use, and ignoring the fact thst literally everyone else in the wargaming community uses a different one. If younhad any maturity you'd take the L and we can sll move on.
Your own definition doesn't even work; 400 grots by definition individually have a small impact on the game compared to a single knight. The fact that 400 grots together can do a lot is meaningless for the purposes of that definition.
Hecaton wrote: Breton, you're twisting the definition of "Elite" you're claiming to use, and ignoring the fact thst literally everyone else in the wargaming community uses a different one. If younhad any maturity you'd take the L and we can sll move on.
Your own definition doesn't even work; 400 grots by definition individually have a small impact on the game compared to a single knight. The fact that 400 grots together can do a lot is meaningless for the purposes of that definition.
What does Singularly or Collectively mean to you? A grot vs a Knight isn't elite sure, but 500 points of grots vs a knight IS elite. The earilier invitation is open to you as well. Make the plan where the Knight wins. Or can do anything but lower the rate at which the grots win by ignoring him.
Even by JNAProductions's definition - To be elite, something has to be better than what it's being compared to, in general. - the Grots are elite. I've laid out a rationale and support for why they are. You've laid out... a round about version of "because I said so" and some insults. I get it, you go with the best argument you've got and apparently yours is "Nah Uh" and insults. Oh and lying about "literally everyone" when there are some even in this thread who had said similar to what I have.
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Blndmage wrote: Grots, no matter the number, are not an elite fighting force.
Take the Knight's position and do anything more than slowing down how fast the Grots get the VP. In an edition where it was all kill points, you'd be right. In an edition that doesn't value model count instead of points value of the unit you might be right. But this example takes advantage of two quirks of the game to flip the script. The knight is TOO elite, and the model count thing. But that's the environment where things are rated in.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/13 03:58:07
Deep down you acknowledge what everyone is saying.
Deep Down you picked half the quote because you're lying and don't actually have a logical counter? Deep down the reason you ignore the difference between grots and grot is the same reason you ignore the difference between Space Marine and Space Marine(s).
Deep Down I wonder why you're this worked up about someone who doesn't think the way you do.
Deep down you acknowledge what everyone is saying.
Deep Down you picked half the quote because you're lying and don't actually have a logical counter? Deep down the reason you ignore the difference between grots and grot is the same reason you ignore the difference between Space Marine and Space Marine(s).
Deep Down I wonder why you're this worked up about someone who doesn't think the way you do.
Worked up isn't the right term, more intrigued why you're battering your head against a wall for an obscure concept you yourself are able to see the holes in.
You yourself admit a knight is elite compared to a grot on an individual level which is what 99.9% of the population are on board with.
You're just slowly yelling into the void about how equal points of something in a game of 40k is theoretically either balanced or is able to counter in some skew lists or builds. Which if we're honest, has nothing to do with how elite a model or unit is in isolation, or in comparison to its peers.
Deep down you acknowledge what everyone is saying.
Deep Down you picked half the quote because you're lying and don't actually have a logical counter? Deep down the reason you ignore the difference between grots and grot is the same reason you ignore the difference between Space Marine and Space Marine(s).
Deep Down I wonder why you're this worked up about someone who doesn't think the way you do.
Worked up isn't the right term,
Right. People always resort to insults when they're not worked up.
more intrigued why you're battering your head against a wall for an obscure concept you yourself are able to see the holes in.
You yourself admit a knight is elite compared to a grot on an individual level which is what 99.9% of the population are on board with.
Repeating the Cherry Picking doesn't mean it wasn't cherry picking. Nor does it hide the Grot/Grots gymnastics you're engaged in.
Deep down you acknowledge what everyone is saying.
Deep Down you picked half the quote because you're lying and don't actually have a logical counter? Deep down the reason you ignore the difference between grots and grot is the same reason you ignore the difference between Space Marine and Space Marine(s).
Deep Down I wonder why you're this worked up about someone who doesn't think the way you do.
Worked up isn't the right term,
Right. People always resort to insults when they're not worked up.
more intrigued why you're battering your head against a wall for an obscure concept you yourself are able to see the holes in.
You yourself admit a knight is elite compared to a grot on an individual level which is what 99.9% of the population are on board with.
Repeating the Cherry Picking doesn't mean it wasn't cherry picking. Nor does it hide the Grot/Grots gymnastics you're engaged in.
I've not made any insults and I have no gymnastics on going, all clear as day for me, but please continue as you were.
60PL 
12PL 
